Avgas in France has reached $7.50/gal !

[Dave Stadt]

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:VAT9e.5840$r53.5583@attbi_s21...
> >> Decimated since when? Post a reference statistic and time as a starting
> >> point.
> >
> > Well, let's start with the fact that France's efforts at flight pre-date
> > our own. Is 1903-ish far enough back for you?
> >
> >> What taxes particularly are you referring to?
> >
> > Avgas taxes. The price of avgas in France (as the subject of this
thread
> > states) has now exceeded $7.50 per gallon, solely as a result of their
> > very aggressive tax policies.
> >
> >> Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what factors
> >> make the cost of avgas what it is?
> >
> > I presume that they get their petroleum from the same worldwide supply
as
> > the U.S. -- yet our avgas is "only" $3.30-ish per gallon.
> >
> >> You just pulled thos whole argument out of your ass, dear, and while it
> >> might make an interesting thesis for a classroom debate, you should
quit
> >> defending it unless you have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.
> >
> > As opposed to your well-thought out, carefully crafted
counter-arguments?
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> > The facts are clear. It is your unwillingness to accept them that is
> > puzzling. Why -- especially in an aviation forum -- are you (and Larry,
> > Martin, and a couple of other folks) defending a foreign tax system that
> > more than DOUBLES the price of aviation? This makes no sense to me.
> >
> >> And why are people required to choose aviation as a pursuit based on
the
> >> population of their country?
> >
> > They're not. But based on the population of France, there should be
many
> > times more pilots -- ESPECIALLY given their proud heritage of flight.
> >
> > I'm still waiting for an answer: If it's NOT the outrageous cost of
avgas
> > that has nearly killed general aviation in France, what is it? Why, in
> > the land of Bleriot and Saint-Exupery, are there so (relatively) few men
> > and women feeling the call to the skies, if NOT for price
considerations?
>
> The French are more culturally mature and have perhaps outgrown such
> childish pursuits.

You forgot the :-). It was a joke wasn't it?

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "GF" == G Farris > writes:

GF> In article >,
GF> says...
>> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> Every indicator I can find shows that the French have killed
>>> general aviation -- or nearly so -- for everyone but the very
>>> rich.
>> If I didn't know it before, I'd do so now: You've never been
>> in France. I have. You're just plain wrong.
>>

GF> I think Jay is neither completely right, nor completely wrong.
GF> I don't know any "very rich" people flying in France, but all
GF> ther people I do know are those who have managed to allocate a
GF> sufficient chunk of spare cash. Many are young, with no
GF> family yet, who have a small apartment (or still live with
GF> their parents) and other compromises in life. When they get
GF> married, and baby comes along, flying stops. Often you see
GF> them coming back in their 40's, when they manage to get the
GF> budget back on track.

This is a very good description of GA in the USA! It certainly
describes my flying experience: PP-ASEL at age 20, accumulated all of
80 hours, then stopped flying for 17 years to finish school, get
married, buy a house, ....

Then I joined a club and rented for 10 years, starting in my late
30s. Finally bought a 2-seat airplane for $20K and really enjoy it.

GF> I think it's true, even obvious, that the cost of flying in
GF> Europe is the main reason why there are relatively few who
GF> take it up.

Relatively few Americans take it up, or Japanese, or [insert rich
industrial country]. Why? Because most people flat out don't like
flying, and for sure don't like flying in small planes.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:

>> You fail to take several things into account. In North America,
>> private planes are a viable and often necessary method of
>> transport because of the distances and the lack of other
>> transport methods in some areas.

JH> This is totally and categorically false. Outside of Alaska,
JH> private airplanes are not "necessary" for transportation in
JH> America at all.

Uh, Jay. *North* America. That includes Canada and Mexico and, yes,
Alaska.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:

>>> If aviation weren't dead in France, they should have the same
>>> PROPORTION of pilots, aircraft and airports as the US.
>> If aviation were dead in France, they wouldn't build
>> Airbusses.

JH> Airbus? Pah. That's not aviation -- that's industry.

JH> I'm talking about real, grass-roots aviation, Stefan -- like
JH> Bleriot and Saint-Exupery practiced.

What about all the Light Sport aircraft just starting to show up in
the USA? Most come from Europe, including France.

In my research of airport clubs to visit 5 years ago for my one and so
far only :-( trip to France, I found lots of clubs and airports. GA
is certainly not dead in France, nor did it appear to me to be
confined to the rich. Instead, just like in the USA, people make
choices on how to spend their money and a few spend it on airplanes.

[George Patterson]

Stefan wrote:
>
> At the moment, liability insurance requirements for aircraft up to 2
> tons MTOW is around 3 Million dollars (approximately).

What I meant is -- how much does one have to pay for this insurance.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Morgans]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote
>
> THe two things that killed it were the cost of AVGAS and Insurance.

And the cost of even 40 year old airplanes.
--
Jim in NC

[George Patterson]

Markus Voget wrote:
>
> The annual premium (both liability and hull coverage) for a Katana DA20
> owned by a flying club in Germany used to be the equivalent of around $5500
> (slightly over 4000 Euro).


Danke.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Morgans]

"Chris" > wrote

> Just so happens that six strawberries and 1 pear also make seven fruit.

> It means **** all.
????????????????????????????

[Morgans]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> I'm still waiting for an answer: If it's NOT the outrageous cost of avgas
> that has nearly killed general aviation in France, what is it? Why, in
the
> land of Bleriot and Saint-Exupery, are there so (relatively) few men and
> women feeling the call to the skies, if NOT for price considerations?


I am afraid you are arguing a lost cause, with people unable or unwilling to
admit a problem. Same result, either way.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Stefan" > wrote

> Third, to correct another misinformation: It's not only avgas which is
> taxed, but all oil products which is used for engines. (Jet fuel is an
> exeption, but this is a long story. So let's forget this for the
> moment.) Yes, auto gas is also highly taxed. But, surprize surprize, car
> traffic isn't dead at all throughout Europe. Which already is that proof
> you asked for.

Ah, but it does make a very big difference in the mile driven per person,
per year, and the cars are generally smaller with better gas economy. The
tax in this case is driving at getting to people to use public
transportation..

So, to summarize: Yes, there is fewer GA in Europe. But even if you
> would wipe all avgas taxes, there wouldn't be more.

How do you come to that conclusion?
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> So, to summarize: Yes, there is fewer GA in Europe. But even if you would
> wipe all avgas taxes, there wouldn't be more.

You admit that predatory taxation has added 25% to the cost of GA in France
(which is a gross under-estimation, BTW) -- and in the same breath say that
it has NO impact on it?


That is the most absurd assertion I've seen in Usenet -- and I've seen some
whoppers over the years.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> You'll get no argument from me on this one, Stefan.
>
> We do, indeed, have the most dunderheaded legal system ever devised by
man.

Hmmm. Dunderheaded, BIG time, but worst of all? I don't know about that.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> I can't remember the last time I saw kids (< 14 yo) playing pick up
> anything.
> Seriously. I assume they're exhausted from all the organized activities.

Sadly, that's very true. I was just talking about this with my 14 year old
son tonight, while we were playing (American) football (just catch, really)
out in the back yard.

When I was a kid, at the height of the baby boom, my neighborhood was FULL
of kids my age. I mean, it was a riot every night, with kids running wild
every which way. We played every possible sport, and always had full-sized
teams.

Now, the nearest kid my son's age lives several blocks away. I really feel
for the kid, cuz there just isn't any opportunity for him to play a pick-up
game of ANYTHING -- soccer, baseball, football, it doesn't matter.

Yet another reason kids are addicted to video games -- they can be played
alone. It's sad.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans]

"Wolfgang Schwanke" > wrote

>
> You can't shut down the whole country for fear of bombing.

You can't? We sure did!
--
Jim (tongue only slightly in cheek) in NC

[Morgans]

"Peter" > wrote
>
> According to the news report on the brake rotors they come from the
> consortium of Canada's Bombardier and France's Alstom.

Ahhh, by the fine folks that bring you
Rotax. I rest my case.
--
Jim in NC

[Jim]

G Farris wrote:

> It's amazing how prejudices and misinformation fly.
>
> I read an article by a French guy - supposed to be a world-famous schol=
ar -
> about cultural differences between French and Americans. He said (I
> paraphrase) "France is basically an agricultural society, so French und=
erstand
> that it can't rain every day, and that a good year is likely to be foll=
owed by
> a poorer year, hence their conservatism - Americans slaughtered the I=
ndians
> and that explains everything you need to know about them".
>
> Many French really believe that blacks are not admitted to US hospitals=
, and
> if you check in with ten bullets in the chest, but don't have cash to =
pay
> they throw you back out in the alley to bleed. At the same time, they w=
ill
> tell you their health care is "free" - they don't seem to worry about t=
he fact
> that a flat-rate 21% comes off every paycheck - even the poorest - to p=
ay for
> it and it's still running up colossal deficits.
>
> For all of these differences, flying in France is not that different fr=
om the
> US - except for the fuel price, that is. For the recreational and VFR p=
ilot,
> most of France is class "G" - below 11500ft - above this it is "D", and=

> they'll never let you in under VFR. But stay below that and you go pret=
ty much
> where you want. Airspace restrictions require you to call for clearance=
s
> pretty often - but I've never had a request refused, and this keeps you=
in
> contact almost constantly with someone or other - because information s=
ervices
> (particularly weather reporting) are poor to non-existant. Once you get=
into
> IFR and commercial operations costs are much higher than in the US, and=
there
> are a lot of regulations. Only about 15% of PPL's in France are IFR rat=
ed,
> against roughly 50% in the US. Typical cost for an IR rating is $20K (f=
rom
> PPL). Night flying is not included in the standard PPL, and requires a =
logbook
> endorsement - there are special routes to follow, usually related to no=
ise
> abatement. Rental rates reflect the high fuel cost, but they include a =
sort of
> "nationalized" insurance which I understand is not bad (never had to us=
e it).
> Landing and parking fees are ubiquitous, but moderate. A $100 hamburger=

> becomes a $200 Cote de Boeuf. The country is very beautiful, and despit=
e its
> rather small size contains an astonishing wealth and variety of differe=
nt
> conditions - from blue/green seacoast to mountains higher than any in t=
he US,
> to vinyards and vast farmlands, gorges and valleys. Weather in the nort=
h is a
> bit of a problem

Yes, France is very beautiful country. But what French mountain is high=
er then
6194 metres?

> - through nine months of the year VFR conditions are the
> exception, which makes basic VFR training longer and more expensive tha=
n in
> Florida or California. Private airplane use for transportation is much =
less
> common than in the US, but this is not only due to the cost, but to the=
fact
> that other forms of transportation are much more developed. It's hard t=
o
> justify a 180nm business trip from Paris to Poitiers, in any plane, whe=
n the
> train has you there in 90 minutes flat, and it's $80 round trip.

French trains are very nice, but they don't always go where you want to g=
o, and
they get very expensive when you are moving a family around often. Then =
there's
the p=E9ages (a French word roughly translated means "bend over") on the
autoroutes. France gets accused of being socialist, but it's interesting=
that
it's autoroute system has largely been privatized (unlike the USA), and
privatization and socialism go together like water and avgas.

[StellaStarr]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Decimated since when? Post a reference statistic and time as a starting
>>point.
>
> Well, let's start with the fact that France's efforts at flight pre-date our
> own. Is 1903-ish far enough back for you?

No, I requested figures, not dates. You've shown no numbers to indicate
the size of aviation before it was "decimated," (which means, in the
dictionary, that one in ten has been done away with.) How many planes,
pilots, airfields or any other topic you want to use, were there before
it was decimated? How do you know aviation is any smaller than it ever
was?
>
>>What taxes particularly are you referring to?
>
> Avgas taxes. The price of avgas in France (as the subject of this thread
> states) has now exceeded $7.50 per gallon, solely as a result of their very
> aggressive tax policies.
>

What was the price before, and how much were the taxes?

>>Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what factors
>>make the cost of avgas what it is?
>
> I presume that they get their petroleum from the same worldwide supply

We get gasoline and avgas in the US from refineries in this country. One
blows up and the price goes up a dime a gallon. Texas refineries don't
send avgas back aross the ocean, it must be refined in that region. The
world crude-oil market notwithstanding, their operations and volume and
costs and other factors in France determine what REFINED petroleum costs
are there.
Gasoline in European countries has been several times the cost in the US
for decades.
So why are you under the impression it's gone up some time in the recent
past?

Heck, I'd be quite willing to agree with you, if you started this out
with facts. Verifiable data is convincing, baseless opinion is not.
Lacking facts, you could be perfectly opposite reality about everything.
Get some solid data, or you're just building a brick wall without the
bricks.

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:OGT9e.5851$r53.2488@attbi_s21...
> >>What is going to happen
> >>to cigarette smoking in Iowa if (when?) the legislature double the tax
on
> >>a
> >>pack of smokes
> >
> > Iowa smokers will purchase out of state.
>
> The aviation parallel, of course, is simply to witness how many
foreign-born
> pilots come to America to train -- to escape predatory taxation.
>
[snip]
>
> Social engineering through taxation -- even well-meaning efforts -- almost
> always seems to have unforeseen consequences.

Much more than most people realize, or even more than they could possibly
conceive.

http://washingtontimes.com/commentary/20050412-095314-5313r.htm

[Matt Barrow]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:03:58 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> > wrote:
> <snip>
> >Social engineering through taxation -- even well-meaning efforts --
almost
> >always seems to have unforeseen consequences.
> You mean something like prohibition? It created a great market for
> the mobs back then.
>
Prohibition had noting to do with taxes. It did, though, create a thriving
black market and the highest crime rates in US history. It's counterpart is
the modern "drug war", an it's created a great market for the modern day
gangs in that market niche. Another up and comer is the prescription drugs
coming from Mexico and Canada.

"Crisis mongering" is an apt description.


Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Wolfgang Schwanke" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in
> news:9IT9e.5855$r53.47@attbi_s21:
>
> >> High speed (180 mph) European trains are preferable to airline
> >> transportation within Europe. No security lines nor baggage waiting,
> >
> > That's interesting.
> >
> > You would think after the train bombings in Spain, there would be as
> > much -- or more -- security efforts expended on them?
>
> You can't shut down the whole country for fear of bombing.
>

But you can in response to one.

Look at how Germany imposed restrictions over the years in response to the
Bader-Meinhof violence of the 70's.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > they apparently have other priorities. They have faster trains, for
example. How
> > does this compare with the US?
>
> We have some fast trains too but we can't get them to stop so they have
> been mothballed for a while.

The Railroad to nowhere.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/opinion/19tierney.html

(Might require registration)'

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Jim]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > So, to summarize: Yes, there is fewer GA in Europe. But even if you would
> > wipe all avgas taxes, there wouldn't be more.
>
> You admit that predatory taxation has added 25% to the cost of GA in France
> (which is a gross under-estimation, BTW) -- and in the same breath say that
> it has NO impact on it?
>
> That is the most absurd assertion I've seen in Usenet -- and I've seen some
> whoppers over the years.

Well let's go back to the premise of the post, that avgas costs $7.50 a gallon
in France. Avgas in France would be priced in Euros, so somebody's converting
Euros to US dollars using the current conversion rate. That's mathematically
accurate, but doesn't tell the whole story. The dollar is very weak to the
euro right now, which affects Americans buying European goods and Europeans
buying American goods, but doesn't affect Europeans buying domestic products as
much. For example, if the price of the dollar versus euros fell tomorrow to
1/2 of what it is today, it would appear that avgas would cost USD 15.00 a
gallon. This would appear to American to be much more expensive, but would not
really change what avgas would cost to a French(wo)man in France.

European countries tend to tax consumption higher, the US doesn't. One reason
avgas is kept expensive is because autogas is very expensive to encourage
public transit and excellent high speed rail service. If avgas would be priced
lower then autogas, there would be an incentive to burn avgas on the road
(which wouldn't do cat converter much good.) Note that Jet-A is much cheaper
in Europe. This is another reason driving the diesel piston aviation engine
and several European companies are leading this technology.

Aviation gasoline will continue to get more expensive in the US, and eventually
may not be available at any price. It can be found (in the US as of last
week) selling at $4.82/US Gallon so you can say that the US is working hard to
catch up with France, and that's without all of those European taxes as well.
Avgas is a boutique fuel that must be specially handled and is produced in
very limited quantities compared to other products, with a lot of liability for
the slightest mishap. More and more corporate and other high consumption
aviation gas consumption has been shifted to aircraft that burn Jet A, further
decreasing the economies of scale for 100ll. Also very importantly, it
contains a *lot* of tetraethyl lead (despite that LL designation), and leaded
autogas was eventually banned by 1996 in the US for a good reason.

Surprisingly essence avec plomb (super) is still available in France, although
it does cost more then sans plomb so it isn't purchased nearly as much. .

[Matt Barrow]

"Wolfgang Schwanke" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in
> :
>
> > But they have all sorts of other toys. I know a few myself. Of course,
> > they have cell phones that cost $60 or more a month, but not
> > catastrophic health insurance that costs around the same amount.
>
> Expensive phones you have there.

Some cost much more (ie, unlimited time).

But it someone else is paying for their living expenses, what do they care?


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Jay Honeck]

>> There's a healthy light aircraft and glider industry here in Germany,
>> not just airbus. I think France has some too.
>
> and Diamond comes to mind .... an Austrian company (also with a production
> plant
> in Canada).

Sorry, Martin. Here's more bad news for Europe and Austria:

From AOPA's member news area:
"And with that, Dries dropped a bomb. Diamond, he said, is establishing what
it calls the Diamond China Project, a new manufacturing facility that will
be built "about 300 kilometers east of Beijing." Site construction began one
month ago, and it will be twice the size of Diamond's Austrian facility -
and capable of employing 1,700 employees and building 600 aircraft a year.
Eventually, all propeller-driven Diamond aircraft will be built at the
Chinese plant, starting with DA40s. The first DA40 will roll out the
so-called "Aviation City" factory doors by year-end."

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mike Rapoport]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:97A9e.4563$c24.215@attbi_s72...

> Chris, it will only feel like we're subsidizing your flying, after the way
> you've been abused. Our airports are 100% supported by the (relatively
> small) taxes on our fuel. (Or, rather, they WOULD be, if our
> legislatures didn't continually rape the fund for all sorts of things that
> have nothing to do with aviation.)
>
>--
> Jay Honeck


Jay, this is total BS. The amount raised from the tax on avgas is $60
million annually. It doesn't even begin to pay for flight service stations
nevermind airports or anything else. Even AOPA achknowleged this in a
recent magazine. If we were to support airports with a gas tax gas would be
$7.80...or more...

Mike
MU-2

[Dave Stadt]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Peter" > wrote
> >
> > According to the news report on the brake rotors they come from the
> > consortium of Canada's Bombardier and France's Alstom.
>
> Ahhh, by the fine folks that bring you
> Rotax. I rest my case.
> --
> Jim in NC

That's one train I will not be riding.

[Morgans]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> Sorry, Martin. Here's more bad news for Europe and Austria:
>
> From AOPA's member news area:
> "And with that, Dries dropped a bomb. Diamond, he said, is establishing
what
> it calls the Diamond China Project, a new manufacturing facility that will
> be built "about 300 kilometers east of Beijing." Site construction began
one
> month ago, and it will be twice the size of Diamond's Austrian facility -
> and capable of employing 1,700 employees and building 600 aircraft a year.
> Eventually, all propeller-driven Diamond aircraft will be built at the
> Chinese plant, starting with DA40s. The first DA40 will roll out the
> so-called "Aviation City" factory doors by year-end."

Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China steel. That
is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the other
made in China crap.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay, this is total BS. The amount raised from the tax on avgas is $60
> million annually. It doesn't even begin to pay for flight service
> stations nevermind airports or anything else. Even AOPA achknowleged this
> in a recent magazine. If we were to support airports with a gas tax gas
> would be $7.80...or more...

Allow me to re-phrase that more precisely.

In Iowa, if the Iowa legislature didn't keep spending all of the tax money
brought in by aviation on things other than aviation, we wouldn't be
scraping for money to repave our ramp. We would have ample money in the
coffers to properly maintain our airport(s).

Hell, during a recent "budget crisis" year (aren't they all?), they
eliminated ALL spending on aviation in the state. But they sure didn't cut
any taxes.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China steel.
> That
> is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the other
> made in China crap.

Now you've done it, Jim, you racist pig. How DARE you launch a wholesale
assault on another culture?

;-)

Hey, I wonder how many years (months?) it will be before GA in China
over-takes what's left of GA in France?

<ducking!>
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:97A9e.4563$c24.215@attbi_s72...
>
> > Chris, it will only feel like we're subsidizing your flying, after the
way
> > you've been abused. Our airports are 100% supported by the (relatively
> > small) taxes on our fuel. (Or, rather, they WOULD be, if our
> > legislatures didn't continually rape the fund for all sorts of things
that
> > have nothing to do with aviation.)
> >
> >--
> > Jay Honeck
>
>
> Jay, this is total BS. The amount raised from the tax on avgas is $60
> million annually. It doesn't even begin to pay for flight service
stations
> nevermind airports or anything else. Even AOPA achknowleged this in a
> recent magazine. If we were to support airports with a gas tax gas would
be
> $7.80...or more...
>

Does the tax on Jet-A and other fees support the airlines usages?

Has anyone ever done a complete breakout of costs vs. revenue of the air
transport system at all levels?

Interestingly, I recall a few articles a few years ago the over-the-road
trucks pay roughly half of taxes and fees for the interstate and state
highways, but they cause more than 3/4ths of wear-and-tear and damage.

When someone else foots the bill, new and more efficient processes and
technologies never seem to get implemented as quickly as when we pay our own
way (like good, mature adults).


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> >
> >
> > Jay, this is total BS. The amount raised from the tax on avgas is $60
> > million annually. It doesn't even begin to pay for flight service
> stations
> > nevermind airports or anything else. Even AOPA achknowleged this in a
> > recent magazine. If we were to support airports with a gas tax gas
would
> be
> > $7.80...or more...
> >
>
> Does the tax on Jet-A and other fees support the airlines usages?
>
> Has anyone ever done a complete breakout of costs vs. revenue of the air
> transport system at all levels?
>
> Interestingly, I recall a few articles a few years ago the over-the-road
> trucks pay roughly half of taxes and fees for the interstate and state
> highways, but they cause more than 3/4ths of wear-and-tear and damage.
>
> When someone else foots the bill, new and more efficient processes and
> technologies never seem to get implemented as quickly as when we pay our
own
> way (like good, mature adults).
>
>

One last thing; the current FSS is, IMO, a throwback to the olden days
before long distance phones and high speed communications. Every big city
doesn't need a FSS, and especially doesn't need several. My take is it's a
jobs program for otherwise unemployable controllers ( :~) ) just like most
of the "education" system.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Mike Rapoport]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:sp_9e.6987$WI3.4028@attbi_s71...
>> Jay, this is total BS. The amount raised from the tax on avgas is $60
>> million annually. It doesn't even begin to pay for flight service
>> stations nevermind airports or anything else. Even AOPA achknowleged
>> this in a recent magazine. If we were to support airports with a gas tax
>> gas would be $7.80...or more...
>
> Allow me to re-phrase that more precisely.
>
> In Iowa, if the Iowa legislature didn't keep spending all of the tax money
> brought in by aviation on things other than aviation, we wouldn't be
> scraping for money to repave our ramp. We would have ample money in the
> coffers to properly maintain our airport(s).
>
> Hell, during a recent "budget crisis" year (aren't they all?), they
> eliminated ALL spending on aviation in the state. But they sure didn't
> cut any taxes.


While the states should keep their promises, aviation would still be
subsidized. Aviation has a very small number of participants exclusively
using a large amount of infrastructure. I am not saying that this subsidy
is good or bad but I am merely asserting that it exists.

Mike
MU-2

[Dave Stadt]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote
>
> > Sorry, Martin. Here's more bad news for Europe and Austria:
> >
> > From AOPA's member news area:
> > "And with that, Dries dropped a bomb. Diamond, he said, is establishing
> what
> > it calls the Diamond China Project, a new manufacturing facility that
will
> > be built "about 300 kilometers east of Beijing." Site construction began
> one
> > month ago, and it will be twice the size of Diamond's Austrian
facility -
> > and capable of employing 1,700 employees and building 600 aircraft a
year.
> > Eventually, all propeller-driven Diamond aircraft will be built at the
> > Chinese plant, starting with DA40s. The first DA40 will roll out the
> > so-called "Aviation City" factory doors by year-end."
>
> Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China steel.
That
> is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the other
> made in China crap.
> --
> Jim in NC

Get used to it, China is the up and coming manufacturing world power. They
will do what Japan did in the '60s and '70s at a scale that will make what
Japan did look like childs play.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "MR" == Mike Rapoport > writes:
MR> While the states should keep their promises, aviation would
MR> still be subsidized. Aviation has a very small number of
MR> participants exclusively using a large amount of
MR> infrastructure. I am not saying that this subsidy is good or
MR> bad but I am merely asserting that it exists.

The subsidy surely does exist, and it's huge. As I recall from
discussions about our local airport:

- The FAA, from the Federal Airport Improvement Program, will pay 90%
of the costs for airport improvement (runway widening or extension or
resurfacing, taxiways, aprons, and so forth). There's no way that the
Feds' AIP is paid completely by aviation related taxes.

- The remaining 10% must come from local or state. Here in California
there is a state airport department (part of the state DOT), and sure
enough the funds they collect get stolen most years to the General
Fund. But at most they would pay for 10%.

- Then the airport owner is usually required to kick in 1% to 2% so
the state doesn't pay the full 10%. In our case the Univ. of
California owns our airport, and they get airport money not from
taxes, but from hangar rentals and gasoline sales. I don't know
whether the airport is a source or sink of money for the UC.

GA is highly subsidized in the US, and like Mike I won't comment
further if that's good or bad.

[Morgans]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote
>
> Now you've done it, Jim, you racist pig. How DARE you launch a wholesale
> assault on another culture?

Chuckle

> ;-)
>
> Hey, I wonder how many years (months?) it will be before GA in China
> over-takes what's left of GA in France?
>
> <ducking!>

You better! <g>

Seriously, though, at least France has some degree of personal freedom left.

The pity is, China is giving us (the US) exzacary what they want. Cheap, at
all costs. I hope we wake up, before it is too late, and we have no
manufacturing and quality in the US, but I fear we will not.

I hope the consensus standards board, or if the Symphony (or any other
made in China airplanes) are to be certified, I hope they tear it apart stem
to stern, and check every part for hardness, fatigue, and any other test
they can think of. I can only imagine airplanes falling from the sky, just
like the public thinks is going to happen. One thing for certain; I will
not be flying in a made in China airplane.

I wonder how many others feel the same way.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote
>
> Get used to it, China is the up and coming manufacturing world power.
They
> will do what Japan did in the '60s and '70s at a scale that will make what
> Japan did look like childs play.

I know, but I DON'T HAVE TO LIKE IT.

I CERTAINLY don't have to buy it.

Is this same thing happening in Europe?

How many years will it be until China's quality comes up, like Japan finally
did?
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:J4O9e.5871$c24.1511@attbi_s72...
> We do, indeed, have the most dunderheaded legal system ever devised by
> man.

Yes, but are you willing to admit that makes YOU a dunderhead? That is,
will you agree with the French who express their disbelief that people so
dunderheaded ever spawned men like Thomas Jefferson and John Adams?

[Stefan]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> You admit that predatory taxation has added 25% to the cost of GA in France
> (which is a gross under-estimation, BTW)

On what "knowledge" is your statement based? Mine is based on calculation.

> -- and in the same breath say that
> it has NO impact on it?

Please be accurate. I said that is has no impact on the number of
private pilots. Each of those pilots will probably fly fewer hours per
year, though, because private pilots tend to fly on a budget.

> That is the most absurd assertion I've seen in Usenet

Maybe, but it is based on a thorough knowledge of the local scene, while
your statements are based on nothing else than prejudice from thousands
of miles away. (BTW: Wasn't Blix' statement that the Iraq didn't have
WMDs the most absurd assertion, too? Sorry, couldn't resist, but I see a
pattern.)

Stefan

[Matt Whiting]

Dave Stadt wrote:

> Get used to it, China is the up and coming manufacturing world power. They
> will do what Japan did in the '60s and '70s at a scale that will make what
> Japan did look like childs play.

Yes, but they also will likely suffer the same fate as Japan when their
costs catch up to the rest of the world.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

> "Dave Stadt" > wrote
>
>>Get used to it, China is the up and coming manufacturing world power.
>
> They
>
>>will do what Japan did in the '60s and '70s at a scale that will make what
>>Japan did look like childs play.
>
>
> I know, but I DON'T HAVE TO LIKE IT.
>
> I CERTAINLY don't have to buy it.
>
> Is this same thing happening in Europe?
>
> How many years will it be until China's quality comes up, like Japan finally
> did?

I'm estimating 3-5 years.

Matt

[Dylan Smith]

In article <4UO9e.5395$r53.732@attbi_s21>, Jay Honeck wrote:
> Why is aviation in France statistically out of proportion with its
> population, as compared with the US, if NOT because of cost?

Cost is certainly one of the most important factors, but I wager even if
avgas was tax free in France, you'd still not see the activity level you
get in the US (due to more reliable and cheaper methods of convenient
high speed transportation, and the shorter distances).

Case in point: aviation isn't really any cheaper in the Isle of Man, but
there are quite a lot of privately owned planes given our small (78000)
population - we have two active GA airports. This is because you can't
drive or take a fast train to Britain and Ireland's cities due to 60nm
of open water. Now compare League City, Texas, which has a population at
least as large as ours (if not larger) by now - which elected to allow
its only airport to have houses built on it, even though it could have
got 90% Federal funding for the airport.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Chris wrote:
> IFR is not a big issue in Europe for the private pilot. So expensive IFR
> systems like WAAS and GPS enabled approaches are irrelevant. Its interesting
> that the much hailed Cirrus cannot fly IFR in much of European airspace and
> in the UK its just a VFR machine.

That's due to assinine regulations put out by our "beloved" CAA. That's
why Cirrus airplanes in Britain are all on the N-register. Indeed, if I
was interested in buying an IFR plane, regardless of what it was (even
if it was a Diamond) I'd have it on the N register to avoid the stupid,
pointless CAA regulations that *decrease* safety, not increase it.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Montblack wrote:
> I'm 100% serious, I wonder why this is? Almost no kids over 14 play soccor
> here, unless they're on an organized team.

Probably because soccer is the most overrated sport in existence.

I also observed when I was living in the US, soccer tended to be a
girl's game - as did field hockey (to the extent that I read in a
newspaper a couple of years ago how a boy who wanted to play hockey had
to wear the girl's uniform, including a skirt, to play it...)

Which always seemed strange. Field hockey is a vicious game, I was
forced to play it at school and hated every second of it. The only
violent game I remotely enjoyed was rugby (even though I was crap at
it).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article <KwZ9e.6991$c24.4078@attbi_s72>, Jay Honeck wrote:
> Now, the nearest kid my son's age lives several blocks away. I really feel
> for the kid, cuz there just isn't any opportunity for him to play a pick-up
> game of ANYTHING -- soccer, baseball, football, it doesn't matter.

Move to the city - then there'll be plenty of nearby kids. That will
always be a problem in a rural area. If you live in high-density housing
in a large city, there will always be random outdoor activities for
groups of kids.

> Yet another reason kids are addicted to video games -- they can be played
> alone. It's sad.

I play video games probably far too often - but seldom alone. We have
this 'intarweb' thingy that allows us to play with friends, and even
form communities, and have meetups with people not just in the same
city, but in different countries. My regular gaming friends live in
England, Finland, Germany and the Czech Republic. Unfortunately, ping
times are too bad to the US, I'd like to be able to play games with
friends over there.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
> Not quite. The US gets about half of its supply from domestic sources.
> France has practically nil domestic oil. Britain and Norway have some.

Britain is an oil producing country. It is a net exporter of oil
products.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Morgans wrote:
>
> "Stefan" > wrote
> So, to summarize: Yes, there is fewer GA in Europe. But even if you
>> would wipe all avgas taxes, there wouldn't be more.
>
> How do you come to that conclusion?

I suspect there would be a *slight* rise in GA activity - but when the
distances are short, IFR means icing and there's a good train service -
it generally doesn't make sense to use GA for anything other than
recreational purposes. Those who really want to fly for fun find a way -
many into soaring (and soaring in Europe isn't overall any more
expensive than it is in the US, and often it's a great deal cheaper due
to the prevalence of winch launching). If you converted every soaring
pilot to power tomorrow, it still wouldn't make France's GA activity
anywhere near as close as the US.

Case in point - even though our aviation isn't any cheaper than in
France, the activity level is much higher per head of populations - we
have two airports with GA for a population of only 78k, and a small but
vibrant GA community. That's because we don't have quite the level of
convenience in travel, due to 60nm of salt water. GA will get you much
closer to your destination in most cases than the airlines can.

In the US you have large distances between cities, poor intercity rail,
and generally not exactly great airline service (that has now become
even more of a rigmarole with the post-9/11 security) so business light
GA is a real going concern, which it will *never* be in France.

Delete all the avgas taxes in Europe and you
still wouldn't have much of a driver for business GA since the business
people can still do it faster, cheaper and more reliably on the train
due to the good rail network and closeness of population centres (and
the number of railway stations). Additionally, travelling by airline is
much more pleasant here - we are allowed to (shock horror) have nail
clippers on us, and don't have to have our ID checked three times, and
take our shoes off. (Last time I went through Houston Hobby for an
internal US flight, in Feburary of this year I had to:
1. take off my belt
2. take off my shoes
3. take my computer out of my bag
4. take my camcorder out my bag
5. a pre-screening before even reaching the metal detector
6. face a long line to get through the detector - long enough that I was
concerned that even though I'd turned up an hour before my flight, I was
going to miss it
7. show photo ID three times

I had to do the same thing at SLC when returning to Hobby too.

All these things are 'window dressing' security and don't help.
Generally for an airport in Britain, I have to do none of those things
in that list to get on an airliner. The only time I've had to show photo
ID was to collect e-tickets or get on an international flight (and in
the case of the e-ticket, it depended on the airport, some just want to
see the credit card you purchased the ticket with).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article <hhO9e.5889$c24.2848@attbi_s72>, Jay Honeck wrote:
> If good trains are what is keeping people from learning to fly, I submit
> that those folks never wanted to fly in the first place.

And if they wanted to fly in the first place, but couldn't afford power
flying, they'd fly gliders. Due to the prevalence of winch launching in
Europe, gliding is generally cheaper here than it is in the US.

Now let me grumble about the fscking delaminated spar in my Ka-8 :/

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, G Farris wrote:
> You are correct!
> The security situation on European high-speed trains is a catastrophe waiting
> to happen, particularly in France, where their TGV is considered an icon of
> national pride. Security has increased slightly, but it would still be
> child's play for someone (anyone) to place a bomb in the luggage carrier of
> one of these trains.

But why bomb the actual train? It's impossible to have 'airline'
security on a train. Put screening, metal detctors the works to board a
TGV - it won't help in the slightest, because the terrorists will just
put the bomb on the rails instead. A broken rail will really ruin your
day when you hit it at 225kph. So there's no *point* having
airline-style security on trains.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Morgans wrote:
> Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China steel. That
> is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the other
> made in China crap.

Unlikely - Diamond's planes are made of plastic!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Morgans wrote:
> I hope the consensus standards board, or if the Symphony (or any other
> made in China airplanes) are to be certified, I hope they tear it apart stem
> to stern, and check every part for hardness, fatigue, and any other test
> they can think of. I can only imagine airplanes falling from the sky, just
> like the public thinks is going to happen. One thing for certain; I will
> not be flying in a made in China airplane.
>
> I wonder how many others feel the same way.

I don't feel this way at all. I have PIC time in Chinese made aircraft,
and I've helped do the grunt work to annual one. The CJ6 I flew was (and
is, I know the owner, and he's still flying it very frequently despite
the big paycut he had to take going from software engineering to flying
for the airlines!) a very well built plane. It is aerobatted with great
frequency. It certainly seemed better made than the Russian equivalents
(we tend to have the Russky ones here, Russia being closer than China).
Not that the Russian ones are badly made, but quite a bit of Russian
stuff seems to have rather poor finish. The CJ6 had been made with the
attention to the fit and finish of all the parts of the airframe (and
was even corrosion-proofed, which is something Cessna didn't do until
they restarted production in the 1990s).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Jay Honeck]

> - The FAA, from the Federal Airport Improvement Program, will pay 90%
> of the costs for airport improvement (runway widening or extension or
> resurfacing, taxiways, aprons, and so forth).

That's because the Feds have decided that maintaining an aviation
infrastructure is in the interest of the country, and they understand that a
local government entity is too small to pay the entire bill. Thus, they
spread the cost over many users, rather than over just the few in (for
example) Iowa City, Iowa.

Now I suppose that premise is open to debate, too -- but that's the concept
at the heart of the Federal subsidy. In that regard, runways are no
different than freeways. We all pay for them -- and we all get to use
them, if we choose.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> We do, indeed, have the most dunderheaded legal system ever devised by
>> man.
>
> Yes, but are you willing to admit that makes YOU a dunderhead? That is,
> will you agree with the French who express their disbelief that people so
> dunderheaded ever spawned men like Thomas Jefferson and John Adams?

Sadly, I suppose, I must indeed share the blame for having done NOTHING to
fix our incredibly broken legal system.

I fear nothing short of revolution will clear the decks.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> do you really think because of your security improvements (aheeem) since
> 'then' there has been no further attack by plane?

Yes.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Move to the city - then there'll be plenty of nearby kids. That will
> always be a problem in a rural area. If you live in high-density housing
> in a large city, there will always be random outdoor activities for
> groups of kids.

We live in a city of 65,000, in a metropolitan area of over 120,000.

True, it's not "high density housing" -- something most of us fight all of
our lives to escape, at least in the Midwest. Having worked for the
Chicago Tribune, there is no way I would live in a big city -- not for all
the money in the world.

> My regular gaming friends live in
> England, Finland, Germany and the Czech Republic. Unfortunately, ping
> times are too bad to the US, I'd like to be able to play games with
> friends over there.

For those of us past 45, can you please explain what that phrase means?
What's a "ping time"?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave Stadt]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Morgans wrote:
>
> > "Dave Stadt" > wrote
> >
> >>Get used to it, China is the up and coming manufacturing world power.
> >
> > They
> >
> >>will do what Japan did in the '60s and '70s at a scale that will make
what
> >>Japan did look like childs play.
> >
> >
> > I know, but I DON'T HAVE TO LIKE IT.
> >
> > I CERTAINLY don't have to buy it.
> >
> > Is this same thing happening in Europe?
> >
> > How many years will it be until China's quality comes up, like Japan
finally
> > did?
>
> I'm estimating 3-5 years.
>
> Matt

In some cases, electronics for example, it is there already.

[Dave Stadt]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
> > You would think after the train bombings in Spain, there would be as
much --
>
> as much as what?
>
> > or more -- security efforts expended on them?
>
> hu? why? we _are_ crazy, but not _that_ crazy. (You only have to check
what
> crazy things the secretary for internal affairs in Germany has in mind)
>
>
> do you really think because of your security improvements (aheeem) since
> 'then' there has been no further attack by plane?
>
> #m
> --
> <http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg

In fact our own government says airport security has not improved since 9/11
and in fact the current government run security is not as effective as was
the privately run security. This is no surprise to me.

[Dave Stadt]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote
> >
> > Now you've done it, Jim, you racist pig. How DARE you launch a
wholesale
> > assault on another culture?
>
> Chuckle
>
> > ;-)
> >
> > Hey, I wonder how many years (months?) it will be before GA in China
> > over-takes what's left of GA in France?
> >
> > <ducking!>
>
> You better! <g>
>
> Seriously, though, at least France has some degree of personal freedom
left.
>
> The pity is, China is giving us (the US) exzacary what they want. Cheap,
at
> all costs. I hope we wake up, before it is too late, and we have no
> manufacturing and quality in the US, but I fear we will not.
>
> I hope the consensus standards board, or if the Symphony (or any other
> made in China airplanes) are to be certified, I hope they tear it apart
stem
> to stern, and check every part for hardness, fatigue, and any other test
> they can think of. I can only imagine airplanes falling from the sky,
just
> like the public thinks is going to happen. One thing for certain; I will
> not be flying in a made in China airplane.
>
> I wonder how many others feel the same way.
> --
> Jim in NC

I have time in a Nanching (sp). It is an excellent airplane, solid airframe
and bullet proof engine. I don't see a problem as long as they don't use
Rotax engines.

[Dylan Smith]

In article <SK5ae.8698$NU4.1859@attbi_s22>, Jay Honeck wrote:
>> My regular gaming friends live in
>> England, Finland, Germany and the Czech Republic. Unfortunately, ping
>> times are too bad to the US, I'd like to be able to play games with
>> friends over there.
>
> For those of us past 45, can you please explain what that phrase means?
> What's a "ping time"?

Think of a submarine's SONAR. It goes 'ping'. The ping bounces off
another submarine, and back to a transducer on the submarine that did
the pinging. You can measure your distance to the other sub by measuring
this time. The ping time is the round-trip time it took for the
ping to go from your sub, be reflected off the other sub, and get back
to your sub. Or think of how DME measures distances - by sending a
signal to the DME station, which then returns it, and then the box in
your panel works out the distance to the station from the round trip
time.

On the internet, your ping time is how long the round trip is from your
computer to a remote computer. On a LAN, ping times are measured in
fractions of milliseconds. On the internet, on hosts within a few
hundred miles, ping times will be in tens of milliseconds. On the
internet, to a host that's thousands of miles away, the ping time will
be in hundreds of milliseconds. Over a satellite link, ping times may be
in excess of a second. (Ever seen those live satellite linkups on TV
where there's quite an obvious pause from when the interviewer finishes
asking the question, to when the interviewee starts responding?)

On the internet, ping time (or latency) is affected by many factors,
such as how full your internet pipe is, what the transfer speed of the
internet pipe is, how big the packet is you send etc. It is also
affected by the speed of light through fibreoptics and the number of
routers and repeaters the data must pass through. Therefore, ping times
between Europe and the US - although more than adequate for web
browsing, chatting on IRC etc. are often not good enough for fast-paced
action games.

To play a highly interactive 3D game, which simulates some real world
situation, having a low ping time is important, because the actions of
the different players must be reasonably synchronized for the game to
make sense. For some online games, ping time is less important - think
of a turn-based strategy game.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Stefan]

Martin Hotze wrote:

> and AFAIK there is still no 100% prove who was the group behind the

Yes, it is. Well, as 100% as you can tell before the court, anyway.

> bombing. Aren't the Basques (sp?) still one possibility? no idea.

No. The former conservative government tried to tell so to gain a few
votes in the election. They got what they deserved for this disgusting
maneuvre. Just another difference between Europe and the USA.

Stefan

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Stadt wrote:
>> "Newps" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
>>>We have some fast trains too but we can't get them to stop so they have
>>>been mothballed for a while.
>>
>>
>> The Boston to Washington high speed train is not running due to not being
>> able to get brake parts. Anybody know where that train is made?
>
> According to the news report on the brake rotors they come from the
> consortium of Canada's Bombardier and France's Alstom.


So it is the France and French Canadian's fault. THat explains things.

[Mike Rapoport]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote
>>
>> Get used to it, China is the up and coming manufacturing world power.
> They
>> will do what Japan did in the '60s and '70s at a scale that will make
>> what
>> Japan did look like childs play.
>
> I know, but I DON'T HAVE TO LIKE IT.
>
> I CERTAINLY don't have to buy it.
>
> Is this same thing happening in Europe?
>
> How many years will it be until China's quality comes up, like Japan
> finally
> did?
> --
> Jim in NC

It isn't important whether anybody likes it or not, what is important is
realize that it is inevitable and change what and how we do things so we do
not compete where we are at a major disadvantage.

Mike
MU-2

[Mike Rapoport]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Stadt wrote:
>
>> Get used to it, China is the up and coming manufacturing world power.
>> They
>> will do what Japan did in the '60s and '70s at a scale that will make
>> what
>> Japan did look like childs play.
>
> Yes, but they also will likely suffer the same fate as Japan when their
> costs catch up to the rest of the world.
>
> Matt

Given that only a small percentage of Chineese are participating in their
"new" economy, it will be a long time before this happens. Remember that
Japan's economy stalled after they became (and remain) the richest developed
nation on a per capita basis.

Mike
MU-2

[Dan Girellini]

Dylan Smith > writes:

> I also observed when I was living in the US, soccer tended to be a
> girl's game - as did field hockey (to the extent that I read in a
> newspaper a couple of years ago how a boy who wanted to play hockey had
> to wear the girl's uniform, including a skirt, to play it...)

Field hockey is definitely considered a woman's sport here (you can find coed
club teams but generally with European men). Soccer, though, is equally
embraced by men and women (at least where I live on the east coast).

Dan.

--
"Ad Astra Per Alia Porci" PGP Key Id:0x507D93DF

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China steel.
> That
> > is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the
other
> > made in China crap.
> > --
> > Jim in NC
>
> Get used to it, China is the up and coming manufacturing world power.
They
> will do what Japan did in the '60s and '70s at a scale that will make what
> Japan did look like childs play.

At lest Japan make quality improves measured as orders of magnitude. In 40
years "Madein Japan" went from being synonymous with junk to some of the
highest quality goods in the world.

China doesn't have the underlying structures and while some of their
handmade goods are well done (the stuff competing against US and other
manufacturers) their still way behind the eight ball. Also, remember that
Japan's cronyism caused their catastrophic collapse. At least Japan has
innovation and technical expertise.

Oh, and China is experiencing a massive captial OUTFLOW right now that shows
no sign of abbating.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote
> >
> > Get used to it, China is the up and coming manufacturing world power.
> They
> > will do what Japan did in the '60s and '70s at a scale that will make
what
> > Japan did look like childs play.
>
> I know, but I DON'T HAVE TO LIKE IT.
>
> I CERTAINLY don't have to buy it.
>
> Is this same thing happening in Europe?
>
> How many years will it be until China's quality comes up, like Japan
finally
> did?

It won't come up on the order that Japan's did because China still competes
98% on CHEAP, which is why so much of their labor, in the workers paradise,
is virtually slave labor. That's real slavery, not the crap the union and
leftist croak about.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> It isn't important whether anybody likes it or not, what is important is
> realize that it is inevitable and change what and how we do things so we
do
> not compete where we are at a major disadvantage.

America cannot compete on CHEAP, only on quality and bang-for-the-buck, but
that's another area that America has squandered.

Americans want to live like capitalists, but work like socialists. Sorry,
that dog don't hunt.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Given that only a small percentage of Chineese are participating in their
> "new" economy, it will be a long time before this happens. Remember that
> Japan's economy stalled after they became (and remain) the richest
developed
> nation on a per capita basis.
>

Even after their economy puked, what, 2/3rds of it's value?
--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
m...
>
> > <http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg
>
> In fact our own government says airport security has not improved since
9/11
> and in fact the current government run security is not as effective as was
> the privately run security. This is no surprise to me.
>

Both versions were Magneau lines of defense.

[Matt Barrow]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:we7ae.2967$Xg.2528@okepread02...
>
> "Peter" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Dave Stadt wrote:
> >> "Newps" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >
> >>>We have some fast trains too but we can't get them to stop so they have
> >>>been mothballed for a while.
> >>
> >>
> >> The Boston to Washington high speed train is not running due to not
being
> >> able to get brake parts. Anybody know where that train is made?
> >
> > According to the news report on the brake rotors they come from the
> > consortium of Canada's Bombardier and France's Alstom.
>
>
> So it is the France and French Canadian's fault. THat explains things.
>

No, it's Bombardier's and Alstrom's fault.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
> news:we7ae.2967$Xg.2528@okepread02...
>>
>> "Peter" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Dave Stadt wrote:
>> >> "Newps" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >
>> >>>We have some fast trains too but we can't get them to stop so they
>> >>>have
>> >>>been mothballed for a while.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The Boston to Washington high speed train is not running due to not
> being
>> >> able to get brake parts. Anybody know where that train is made?
>> >
>> > According to the news report on the brake rotors they come from the
>> > consortium of Canada's Bombardier and France's Alstom.
>>
>>
>> So it is the France and French Canadian's fault. THat explains things.
>>
>
> No, it's Bombardier's and Alstrom's fault.
>
>

Jesus, it was a joke Mat.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:cE5ae.8683$NU4.4645@attbi_s22...
>> Yes, but are you willing to admit that makes YOU a dunderhead? That is,
>> will you agree with the French who express their disbelief that people so
>> dunderheaded ever spawned men like Thomas Jefferson and John Adams?
>
> Sadly, I suppose, I must indeed share the blame for having done NOTHING to
> fix our incredibly broken legal system.

That's not really what I asked.

Probably the closest to a "yes" I'm going to get, I suppose. Which is, in
and of itself, an answer to my question. And just the one I expected.

Pete

[Newps]

Martin Hotze wrote:


>
> the good thing is that I drive a car needing about 6 liters per 100
> kilometers (the other car is a diesel needing about 4 to 5 liters per 100
> kilometers). So I do care driving a fuelefficient car, because it saves me
> money.

Somebody run the numbers. What is that in miles per gallon? Just
wanted to compare that to my F250 Diesel.

[Newps]

>>- The FAA, from the Federal Airport Improvement Program, will pay 90%
>>of the costs for airport improvement (runway widening or extension or
>>resurfacing, taxiways, aprons, and so forth).


The FAA pays 95% now.

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:


>
>
> We live in a city of 65,000, in a metropolitan area of over 120,000.

Ahem...120,000 is not now and never will be a "metro area".

[Stefan]

Newps wrote:

> Somebody run the numbers. What is that in miles per gallon? Just
> wanted to compare that to my F250 Diesel.

1 US gallon equals 3.785 liters (approximately)
1 statute mile equals 1.6 kilometers (approximately)

I think I can leave the rest to you as an exercise.

Stefan

[George Patterson]

Jim wrote:
>
> European countries tend to tax consumption higher, the US doesn't. One reason
> avgas is kept expensive is because autogas is very expensive to encourage
> public transit and excellent high speed rail service. If avgas would be priced
> lower then autogas, there would be an incentive to burn avgas on the road
> (which wouldn't do cat converter much good.)

How prevalent is the use of a cat in Europe these days? Ten years ago, nearly
all the gas was still leaded and catalytic converters were nearly unknown. I'm
aware that they've gone to mainly unleaded fuel, but do most European cars now
have the converters as well?

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George Patterson]

Morgans wrote:
>
> I wonder how many others feel the same way.

Not I. My tablesaw and a few of my other tools were made in China. I read one
review that stated they found the table surface on the Chinese brand of saw to
be flatter than any other brand (including Delta).

When the Chinese feel it's important to do so, they produce an excellent quality
product.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George Patterson]

Morgans wrote:
>
> How many years will it be until China's quality comes up, like Japan finally
> did?

About -15.

The question is, how long will it take for Americans to aquire enough
information about Chinese manufacturers to make informed decisions about their
products? The Chinese don't seem to have made any effort to brand their products.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Stefan]

George Patterson wrote:

> How prevalent is the use of a cat in Europe these days?

It's been mandatory for I think more than 10 years now. (Can't tell you
the exact year by heart.) For new cars, that is.

Stefan

[Matt Whiting]

Dylan Smith wrote:
> In article >, Chris wrote:
>
>>IFR is not a big issue in Europe for the private pilot. So expensive IFR
>>systems like WAAS and GPS enabled approaches are irrelevant. Its interesting
>>that the much hailed Cirrus cannot fly IFR in much of European airspace and
>>in the UK its just a VFR machine.
>
>
> That's due to assinine regulations put out by our "beloved" CAA. That's
> why Cirrus airplanes in Britain are all on the N-register. Indeed, if I
> was interested in buying an IFR plane, regardless of what it was (even
> if it was a Diamond) I'd have it on the N register to avoid the stupid,
> pointless CAA regulations that *decrease* safety, not increase it.
>

And now you can throw insurance into the mix along with avgas prices:

"$5 MILLION COVERAGE TO FLY A 182 IN EUROPE?
Thinking of flying your N-registered aircraft in Europe? Better make
sure you can afford it. The European Union is imposing new liability
insurance requirements for general aviation aircraft starting April 30.
If you were flying a Cessna 182 with four people on board, you'd need
almost $5 million in insurance coverage--assuming you could find the
coverage and afford it. "It's almost impossible for light aircraft
operators to get more than $1 million in liability insurance from U.S.
underwriters," said Luis Gutierrez, AOPA director of regulatory and
certification policy. AOPA is currently working with several insurance
companies to determine if it is feasible to provide temporary liability
insurance for members desiring to fly to Europe for a one-time trip or
longer-term insurance to cover those on an extended stay. For more
information, see AOPA's regulatory brief."

[Matt Whiting]

George Patterson wrote:
> Morgans wrote:
>
>>
>> I wonder how many others feel the same way.
>
>
> Not I. My tablesaw and a few of my other tools were made in China. I
> read one review that stated they found the table surface on the Chinese
> brand of saw to be flatter than any other brand (including Delta).
>
> When the Chinese feel it's important to do so, they produce an excellent
> quality product.

Where are Delta table saws made these days? I know that all of the
small drill presses are now made off-shore and it wouldn't surprise me
if this is true of table saws as well.


Matt

[Dave Stadt]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> George Patterson wrote:
> > Morgans wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I wonder how many others feel the same way.
> >
> >
> > Not I. My tablesaw and a few of my other tools were made in China. I
> > read one review that stated they found the table surface on the Chinese
> > brand of saw to be flatter than any other brand (including Delta).
> >
> > When the Chinese feel it's important to do so, they produce an excellent
> > quality product.
>
> Where are Delta table saws made these days? I know that all of the
> small drill presses are now made off-shore and it wouldn't surprise me
> if this is true of table saws as well.
>
>
> Matt

Bottom end Delta stuff is made in China.

[Morgans]

"Newps" > wrote

> Ahem...120,000 is not now and never will be a "metro area".

Think again. In Iowa, and other Midwest and plains states, that is a
downright huge metro area. Such as are the wide open spaces in the US.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote

> I also observed when I was living in the US, soccer tended to be a
> girl's game -

It is slowly changing.

One problem, at least in NC, is that the boy's soccer season is at the same
time as football. The most athletic boys go for the glamour of football
(the one with the funny shaped ball that doesn't bounce right), and the
smaller, speedy types go for soccer.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Morgans wrote:
> > Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China steel.
That
> > is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the
other
> > made in China crap.
>
> Unlikely - Diamond's planes are made of plastic!

I know you are kidding, but I am sure there are some VERY important steel
parts in the "plastic" airplane, too. ;-)
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Barrow]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Martin Hotze wrote:
>
>
> >
> > the good thing is that I drive a car needing about 6 liters per 100
> > kilometers (the other car is a diesel needing about 4 to 5 liters per
100
> > kilometers). So I do care driving a fuelefficient car, because it saves
me
> > money.
>
> Somebody run the numbers. What is that in miles per gallon? Just
> wanted to compare that to my F250 Diesel.

About 40MPG and 50MPG for the diesel.

Such a car would likely be "useful" out in the west where distances are
measured in three or even four digits and those are MILES not klicks.

But Martin is such a good little milch cow!! He'll do as ordered!

[Mike Rapoport]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
>>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> news:97A9e.4563$c24.215@attbi_s72...
>>
>> > Chris, it will only feel like we're subsidizing your flying, after the
> way
>> > you've been abused. Our airports are 100% supported by the (relatively
>> > small) taxes on our fuel. (Or, rather, they WOULD be, if our
>> > legislatures didn't continually rape the fund for all sorts of things
> that
>> > have nothing to do with aviation.)
>> >
>> >--
>> > Jay Honeck
>>
>>
>> Jay, this is total BS. The amount raised from the tax on avgas is $60
>> million annually. It doesn't even begin to pay for flight service
> stations
>> nevermind airports or anything else. Even AOPA achknowleged this in a
>> recent magazine. If we were to support airports with a gas tax gas would
> be
>> $7.80...or more...
>>
>
> Does the tax on Jet-A and other fees support the airlines usages?
>

The passenger and fuel taxes are all mixed together. I used avgas tax and
FSS because almost all the FSS users are flying piston engine airplanes.
There really aren't any other fees that don't go to the airport owner.

> Has anyone ever done a complete breakout of costs vs. revenue of the air
> transport system at all levels?
>
If you consider that most of the system exists for the airlines, with GA as
an incremental user then the airlines are getting a pretty good deal. If
you divide the cost among all users by the number of flights then GA is
getting a good deal. People try to parse the facts to support their
position. Another way to look at it is that GA pilots and companies with
business aircraft pay income taxes and most airlines do not. The airlines
would counter that they pay wages and their employees pay taxes. It goes on
forever. One thing is clear though; piston GA is not paying its way through
fuel taxes as many believe. If the airplane burns 10GPH and flys 100hrs/yr
the fuel tax is only about $200/yr which doesn't cover much of anything.

> Interestingly, I recall a few articles a few years ago the over-the-road
> trucks pay roughly half of taxes and fees for the interstate and state
> highways, but they cause more than 3/4ths of wear-and-tear and damage.
>
I recall a statistic that one max weight semi truck caused as much damage as
2300cars over the same road. This implies that trucking is indeed
subsidized. The railroads have to maintain their own tracks. The system
doesn't change because there are more truckers than railroads.

> When someone else foots the bill, new and more efficient processes and
> technologies never seem to get implemented as quickly as when we pay our
> own
> way (like good, mature adults).
>
Yes I would support an IFR system like in the UK. You fly without radar
separation below certain altitudes and you don't have to talk to ATC. AFAIK
there has never been a collision.


> --
> Matt
> ---------------------
> Matthew W. Barrow
> Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> Montrose, CO
>
>
>

[Mike Rapoport]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:8C5ae.8520$r53.7576@attbi_s21...
>> - The FAA, from the Federal Airport Improvement Program, will pay 90%
>> of the costs for airport improvement (runway widening or extension or
>> resurfacing, taxiways, aprons, and so forth).
>
> That's because the Feds have decided that maintaining an aviation
> infrastructure is in the interest of the country, and they understand that
> a local government entity is too small to pay the entire bill. Thus,
> they spread the cost over many users, rather than over just the few in
> (for example) Iowa City, Iowa.
>
> Now I suppose that premise is open to debate, too -- but that's the
> concept at the heart of the Federal subsidy. In that regard, runways are
> no different than freeways. We all pay for them -- and we all get to use
> them, if we choose.
> --
> Jay Honeck

No, there is a fundemental difference. The road tax on gasoline pays for
all the roads and the taxes on aviation do not come close to paying for
airports. Most of the 90% is coming from non-aviation sources. Aviation is
heavily subsidized but so is everybody with an AGI under something between
$100K and $200K/yr which is most taxpayers. Same thing with SS, recipients
are getting way more in benefits than they paid in.

Ask your local FBO's how much fuel they sell and what the taxes are and
compare it to the airport budget then estimate the number of flights, figure
$10 per weather briefing and see how the numbers come out.

Mike
MU-2

[Mike Rapoport]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote:
>
>> It isn't important whether anybody likes it or not, what is important is
>> realize that it is inevitable and change what and how we do things so we
>> do
>> not compete where we are at a major disadvantage.
>
> So what is your (US) or our (Europe) advantage? High costs for labor and
> energy, higher transportation costs, more restrictions and laws, lack of
> people willing to work really hard, etc. etc ...
>
> #m
> --
> <http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg>

Lots of intellectual property, extensive infrastructure, stable political
system, lots of capital and educated people. Every country has about the
same energy costs. The US and Europe are well positioned to compete in many
industries.

Part of what looks like a trade disaster with China is an error in the way
we look at it. We may import a billion dollars worth of low margin rebar
that China made a 5% profit on but we may provide them with $100 million
worth of investment banking services that have a profit margin of 80%. It
looks like a balance of payments disaster but the trade actually worked to
our advantage. Yes, it looks like they got more dollars but they had to use
them to produce the rebar. There will be a major change in economic theory
soon because the current theories can't explain why high cost regions can
produce (and sell) anything at all. The new theory will look at trade
profitability instead of trade revenue.

Mike
MU-2

[Mike Rapoport]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> link.net...
>> Given that only a small percentage of Chineese are participating in their
>> "new" economy, it will be a long time before this happens. Remember that
>> Japan's economy stalled after they became (and remain) the richest
> developed
>> nation on a per capita basis.
>>
>
> Even after their economy puked, what, 2/3rds of it's value?
> --
> Matt
> ---------------------
> Matthew W. Barrow
> Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> Montrose, CO


How are you arriving at that?

Mike
MU-2

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:11:04 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:

>> > the good thing is that I drive a car needing about 6 liters per 100
>> > kilometers (the other car is a diesel needing about 4 to 5 liters per
>100
>> > kilometers). So I do care driving a fuelefficient car, because it saves
>me
>> > money.
>>
>> Somebody run the numbers. What is that in miles per gallon? Just
>> wanted to compare that to my F250 Diesel.
>
>About 40MPG and 50MPG for the diesel.

btw my numbers reflect only my cars. this fuel consumption does not reflect
fuel efficient cars. (IIRC this is something like 3 liters per 100
kilometers)

>Such a car would likely be "useful"

it is always useful to save gas (and money). what is the difference in
driving 100 miles within a city or "out in the west"?

>out in the west where distances are
>measured in three or even four digits and those are MILES not klicks.

even in the city and on short distance your consumption is more than
average.
it was always weired to see those huge pickups in the city, only the driver
and no passengers, the driver only has this car for ... eee .. no idea.
hopefuly for fun. no wonder that carpooling lanes can be used when the car
is occupied by at least _2_ persons.

>But Martin is such a good little milch cow!! He'll do as ordered!

I don't get your point.

I am free to buy whatever car I can afford. But I'd be silly to buy more
than I would need.

#m
--
<http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg>

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 04:20:19 GMT, Mike Rapoport wrote:

>> So what is your (US) or our (Europe) advantage? High costs for labor and
>> energy, higher transportation costs, more restrictions and laws, lack of
>> people willing to work really hard, etc. etc ...

>Lots of intellectual property, extensive infrastructure, stable political
>system, lots of capital and educated people.

I am with you except for the educated people.

>Every country has about the
>same energy costs.

*hehe* not really. For example: Opel (a car brand, owned by GM) has plants
here in some European countries. They wanted to close one German facility.
One reason was that energy was cheaper in Finnland (IIRC; one of the
northern countries), labor was about the same.

>The US and Europe are well positioned to compete in many
>industries.

not for very much longer. Maybe 1, maximum 2 generations.
maybe there are few industries left for us.

>Mike
>MU-2

#m
--
<http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg>

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 03:53:50 GMT, Mike Rapoport wrote:

>I recall a statistic that one max weight semi truck caused as much damage as
>2300cars over the same road. This implies that trucking is indeed
>subsidized. The railroads have to maintain their own tracks. The system
>doesn't change because there are more truckers than railroads.

this is one of the main reasons we have tolls for trucks on a per mile
basis. for one to pay for the damage; we also want them to move their cargo
on trains.

#m
--
<http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg>

[Bob Noel]

In article . net>,
"Mike Rapoport" > wrote:

> No, there is a fundemental difference. The road tax on gasoline pays for
> all the roads

are you claiming that, in the USA, the only source of funds to pay for roads is
the tax on gas? In MA we have this excise tax which I thought paid for part
of the road infrastructure.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >
> > Does the tax on Jet-A and other fees support the airlines usages?
> >
>
> The passenger and fuel taxes are all mixed together. I used avgas tax and
> FSS because almost all the FSS users are flying piston engine airplanes.
> There really aren't any other fees that don't go to the airport owner.
>
> > Has anyone ever done a complete breakout of costs vs. revenue of the air
> > transport system at all levels?
> >
> If you consider that most of the system exists for the airlines, with GA
as
> an incremental user then the airlines are getting a pretty good deal.

Considering the spartan facilities GA uses, compared to the regal
infrastructure the airlines require, GA is dirt cheap.

> If
> you divide the cost among all users by the number of flights then GA is
> getting a good deal. People try to parse the facts to support their
> position. Another way to look at it is that GA pilots and companies with
> business aircraft pay income taxes and most airlines do not.

And GA didn't get $$$BILLIONS in handout in the wake of 9/11.

> The airlines
> would counter that they pay wages and their employees pay taxes. It goes
on
> forever.

Cyclically.

> One thing is clear though; piston GA is not paying its way through
> fuel taxes as many believe. If the airplane burns 10GPH and flys
100hrs/yr
> the fuel tax is only about $200/yr which doesn't cover much of anything.
>
> > Interestingly, I recall a few articles a few years ago the over-the-road
> > trucks pay roughly half of taxes and fees for the interstate and state
> > highways, but they cause more than 3/4ths of wear-and-tear and damage.
> >
> I recall a statistic that one max weight semi truck caused as much damage
as
> 2300cars over the same road. This implies that trucking is indeed
> subsidized.

Trucks like to have stickers on their cab/trailers that "I paid $xxx in
taxes last year", but the amounts certain;y are not coincident with the
damage they cause. Never mind that many are way OVER max.

Hell, I paid $900 in Colorado property tax on my bird last year and it
certainly didn't go into the CAF.

> The railroads have to maintain their own tracks. The system
> doesn't change because there are more truckers than railroads.
>
> > When someone else foots the bill, new and more efficient processes and
> > technologies never seem to get implemented as quickly as when we pay our
> > own
> > way (like good, mature adults).
> >
> Yes I would support an IFR system like in the UK. You fly without radar
> separation below certain altitudes and you don't have to talk to ATC.
AFAIK
> there has never been a collision.

"Midair collisions are extremely rare. In 1999, for instance, only 18 midair
collisions occurred, of which 9 involved fatalities. A fatal midair
collision, therefore, occurred only once in every 3 million flying hours
(based on an estimated 27 million hours flown in 1999)." -- AOPA GA Fact
Sheet

Only two of the 18 (AIUI) were under ATC control. ??


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> No, there is a fundemental difference. The road tax on gasoline pays for
> all the roads and the taxes on aviation do not come close to paying for
> airports.

Maybe where you come from; in most states fuel taxes go into the general
fund (often in contravention of several state and federal laws).

[Matt Barrow]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article . net>,
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote:
>
> > No, there is a fundemental difference. The road tax on gasoline pays
for
> > all the roads
>
> are you claiming that, in the USA, the only source of funds to pay for
roads is
> the tax on gas? In MA we have this excise tax which I thought paid for
part
> of the road infrastructure.

In many states the fuel taxes and property taxes on vehicles all goes into
the General Fund. Some of it comes back into the highway fund, but often,
not even half.

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote:
> >
> >> It isn't important whether anybody likes it or not, what is important
is
> >> realize that it is inevitable and change what and how we do things so
we
> >> do
> >> not compete where we are at a major disadvantage.
> >
> > So what is your (US) or our (Europe) advantage? High costs for labor and
> > energy, higher transportation costs, more restrictions and laws, lack of
> > people willing to work really hard, etc. etc ...
> >
> > #m
> > --
> > <http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg>
>
> Lots of intellectual property, extensive infrastructure, stable political
> system, lots of capital and educated people. Every country has about the
> same energy costs. The US and Europe are well positioned to compete in
many
> industries.
>
http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/ (EU vs. USA) by a think tank in Stockholm,
Sweden Read particularly the summary at the bottom and some of he charts
comparing the various EU countries against the US. For example, if the
single EU countries were compared along side the US states, they would
mostly be in the bottom six or so (down with Alabama or West Virginia). The
big factors are regulation and taxes. In essence, the EU is, productivity
wise, where the US was in 1978 and falling behind.


Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > link.net...
> >> Given that only a small percentage of Chineese are participating in
their
> >> "new" economy, it will be a long time before this happens. Remember
that
> >> Japan's economy stalled after they became (and remain) the richest
> > developed
> >> nation on a per capita basis.
> >>
> >
> > Even after their economy puked, what, 2/3rds of it's value?
> > --
> > Matt
> > ---------------------
> > Matthew W. Barrow
> > Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> > Montrose, CO
>
>
> How are you arriving at that?
>
What was the NIKKEI at it's peak and bottom? It's now at 11,045 and wasn't
it at around 40,000 at it's peak in 1990?

[Matt Barrow]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Newps" > wrote
>
> > Ahem...120,000 is not now and never will be a "metro area".
>
> Think again. In Iowa, and other Midwest and plains states, that is a
> downright huge metro area. Such as are the wide open spaces in the US.
> --
The feds consider a "Metro Area" to be 1 million population or more and have
since the 60's I think.

[Matt Barrow]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, Morgans wrote:
> > > Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China steel.
> That
> > > is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the
> other
> > > made in China crap.
> >
> > Unlikely - Diamond's planes are made of plastic!


OHMYGOD!! They'll sneak it through the metal detectors!! :~)
>
> I know you are kidding, but I am sure there are some VERY important steel
> parts in the "plastic" airplane, too. ;-)

The relief tubes?


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Mike Rapoport]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> link.net...
>>
>> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >
>> > Does the tax on Jet-A and other fees support the airlines usages?
>> >
>>
>> The passenger and fuel taxes are all mixed together. I used avgas tax
>> and
>> FSS because almost all the FSS users are flying piston engine airplanes.
>> There really aren't any other fees that don't go to the airport owner.
>>
>> > Has anyone ever done a complete breakout of costs vs. revenue of the
>> > air
>> > transport system at all levels?
>> >
>> If you consider that most of the system exists for the airlines, with GA
> as
>> an incremental user then the airlines are getting a pretty good deal.
>
> Considering the spartan facilities GA uses, compared to the regal
> infrastructure the airlines require, GA is dirt cheap.


Not really if you consider that most airports exist soley for GA. The
taxes on GA don't cover the services and facilities that GA uses exclusively


>> If
>> you divide the cost among all users by the number of flights then GA is
>> getting a good deal. People try to parse the facts to support their
>> position. Another way to look at it is that GA pilots and companies with
>> business aircraft pay income taxes and most airlines do not.
>
> And GA didn't get $$$BILLIONS in handout in the wake of 9/11.
>
>> The airlines
>> would counter that they pay wages and their employees pay taxes. It goes
> on
>> forever.
>
> Cyclically.
>
>> One thing is clear though; piston GA is not paying its way through
>> fuel taxes as many believe. If the airplane burns 10GPH and flys
> 100hrs/yr
>> the fuel tax is only about $200/yr which doesn't cover much of anything.
>>
>> > Interestingly, I recall a few articles a few years ago the
>> > over-the-road
>> > trucks pay roughly half of taxes and fees for the interstate and state
>> > highways, but they cause more than 3/4ths of wear-and-tear and damage.
>> >
>> I recall a statistic that one max weight semi truck caused as much damage
> as
>> 2300cars over the same road. This implies that trucking is indeed
>> subsidized.
>
> Trucks like to have stickers on their cab/trailers that "I paid $xxx in
> taxes last year", but the amounts certain;y are not coincident with the
> damage they cause. Never mind that many are way OVER max.
>
> Hell, I paid $900 in Colorado property tax on my bird last year and it
> certainly didn't go into the CAF.
>
>> The railroads have to maintain their own tracks. The system
>> doesn't change because there are more truckers than railroads.
>>
>> > When someone else foots the bill, new and more efficient processes and
>> > technologies never seem to get implemented as quickly as when we pay
>> > our
>> > own
>> > way (like good, mature adults).
>> >
>> Yes I would support an IFR system like in the UK. You fly without radar
>> separation below certain altitudes and you don't have to talk to ATC.
> AFAIK
>> there has never been a collision.
>
> "Midair collisions are extremely rare. In 1999, for instance, only 18
> midair
> collisions occurred, of which 9 involved fatalities. A fatal midair
> collision, therefore, occurred only once in every 3 million flying hours
> (based on an estimated 27 million hours flown in 1999)." -- AOPA GA Fact
> Sheet
>
> Only two of the 18 (AIUI) were under ATC control. ??
>
>

I don't think that any of them were during the enroute phase of flight.

Mike
MU-2


> --
> Matt
> ---------------------
> Matthew W. Barrow
> Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> Montrose, CO
>
>

[Mike Rapoport]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article . net>,
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote:
>
>> No, there is a fundemental difference. The road tax on gasoline pays for
>> all the roads
>
> are you claiming that, in the USA, the only source of funds to pay for
> roads is
> the tax on gas? In MA we have this excise tax which I thought paid for
> part
> of the road infrastructure.
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> looking for a sig the lawyers will like

No only federal highway funding. State and county roads are funded
differently.

Mike
MU-2

[Matt Barrow]

"Wolfgang Schwanke" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in
> :
>
> > http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/ (EU vs. USA) by a think tank in
> > Stockholm, Sweden Read particularly the summary at the bottom and some
> > of he charts comparing the various EU countries against the US.
>
> Of course, the results of such surveys depend on the political leanings
> of the authors. Authors who favour a neoliberal policy will come to
> results that portray the US as better, so to encourage Europeans to
> mimick American policies. Economics isn't a science,

Paul Krugman thinks it is...at least Keynesian economics, that is.


> it's ideology to a
> large extent.

Find the source of their data and report back.

>
> Regards

Refute

[Mike Rapoport]

"Wolfgang Schwanke" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in
> :
>
>> http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/ (EU vs. USA) by a think tank in
>> Stockholm, Sweden Read particularly the summary at the bottom and some
>> of he charts comparing the various EU countries against the US.
>
> Of course, the results of such surveys depend on the political leanings
> of the authors. Authors who favour a neoliberal policy will come to
> results that portray the US as better, so to encourage Europeans to
> mimick American policies. Economics isn't a science, it's ideology to a
> large extent.

Very true!

Mike
MU-2

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > link.net...
> >>
> >> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Does the tax on Jet-A and other fees support the airlines usages?
> >> >
> >>
> >> The passenger and fuel taxes are all mixed together. I used avgas tax
> >> and
> >> FSS because almost all the FSS users are flying piston engine
airplanes.
> >> There really aren't any other fees that don't go to the airport owner.
> >>
> >> > Has anyone ever done a complete breakout of costs vs. revenue of the
> >> > air
> >> > transport system at all levels?
> >> >
> >> If you consider that most of the system exists for the airlines, with
GA
> > as
> >> an incremental user then the airlines are getting a pretty good deal.
> >
> > Considering the spartan facilities GA uses, compared to the regal
> > infrastructure the airlines require, GA is dirt cheap.
>
>
> Not really if you consider that most airports exist soley for GA.

I'd bet that Denver Intl (Frederico Pena's monument to himself) cost as much
as the rest of GA airports combined

> The
> taxes on GA don't cover the services and facilities that GA uses
exclusively
>
> I don't think that any of them were during the enroute phase of flight.
>
It doesn't say.

[Mike Rapoport]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> link.net...
>>
>> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
>> > link.net...
>> >> Given that only a small percentage of Chineese are participating in
> their
>> >> "new" economy, it will be a long time before this happens. Remember
> that
>> >> Japan's economy stalled after they became (and remain) the richest
>> > developed
>> >> nation on a per capita basis.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Even after their economy puked, what, 2/3rds of it's value?
>> > --
>> > Matt
>> > ---------------------
>> > Matthew W. Barrow
>> > Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
>> > Montrose, CO
>>
>>
>> How are you arriving at that?
>>
> What was the NIKKEI at it's peak and bottom? It's now at 11,045 and wasn't
> it at around 40,000 at it's peak in 1990?


That is ridculous. Economies are not measured by stock market valuations.
The GDP of Japan is larger now than ever before. How would you rate the US
economy on that metric? The Nasdaq is down 61% from its high five years
ago.

Mike
MU-2

[G Farris]

In article >, says...

>
>Of course, the results of such surveys depend on the political leanings
>of the authors. Authors who favour a neoliberal policy will come to
>results that portray the US as better, so to encourage Europeans to
>mimick American policies.

Of course this is true.
Nevertheless, I think all will agree that there is a productivity problem in
Europe. French workers have the shortest working week of any country in the
world, and are on the higher end in pay scale (though lower than Germany,
Japan or the US). Their productivity in no way justifies such little work, and
when you add in the cost of all their social benefits, and their strikes to
ask for eben more social benefits and even less work it is not surprising that
they are not competitive on a global scale in most industries.

I think the big ideological difference is not in the assessment of the
situation, but in the proposed remedies, which will be diametrically opposed,
depending on which side of the political spectrum one favors.

G Faris

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > link.net...
> >>
> >> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> >> > link.net...
> >> >> Given that only a small percentage of Chineese are participating in
> > their
> >> >> "new" economy, it will be a long time before this happens. Remember
> > that
> >> >> Japan's economy stalled after they became (and remain) the richest
> >> > developed
> >> >> nation on a per capita basis.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Even after their economy puked, what, 2/3rds of it's value?
> >> > --
> >> > Matt
> >> > ---------------------
> >> > Matthew W. Barrow
> >> > Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> >> > Montrose, CO
> >>
> >>
> >> How are you arriving at that?
> >>
> > What was the NIKKEI at it's peak and bottom? It's now at 11,045 and
wasn't
> > it at around 40,000 at it's peak in 1990?
>
>
> That is ridculous. Economies are not measured by stock market valuations.

Oh, and what DO they measure?

> The GDP of Japan is larger now than ever before.

Got some NET numbers?

> How would you rate the US
> economy on that metric?

I'd say it's pretty ****ty, regardless of what the Repubs say.

> The Nasdaq is down 61% from its high five years
> ago.

Yup and many are STILL paying the price. I know several engineers that are
making 1/4th what they were five years ago.

Seems the only thing that grown is government.

[Matt Barrow]

"G Farris" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, says...
>
> >
> >Of course, the results of such surveys depend on the political leanings
> >of the authors. Authors who favour a neoliberal policy will come to
> >results that portray the US as better, so to encourage Europeans to
> >mimick American policies.
>
> Of course this is true.


Gee, what is that, a mantra?

> Nevertheless, I think all will agree that there is a productivity problem
in
> Europe.

Well, if the econmic studies are all bogus, how do you come to that
conclusion?

What the hell is it with all this post-modernist bull****?


>French workers have the shortest working week of any country in the
> world, and are on the higher end in pay scale (though lower than Germany,
> Japan or the US). Their productivity in no way justifies such little work,
and
> when you add in the cost of all their social benefits, and their strikes
to
> ask for eben more social benefits and even less work it is not surprising
that
> they are not competitive on a global scale in most industries.

So how do you KNOW that? That's just your "opinion"!!

> I think the big ideological difference is not in the assessment of the
> situation, but in the proposed remedies, which will be diametrically
opposed,
> depending on which side of the political spectrum one favors.

Yes, governments of ALL stripes think that the economies they screwed up
should give them MORE moeny and power. That's the essence of Keynesianism.

"Nevertheless the theory of output as a whole, which is what the following
book purports to provide, is much more easily adapted to the conditions of a
totalitarian state, than is the theory of production and distribution of a
given output produced under conditions of free competition and a lance
measure of laissez-faire." (Keynes 1973 [1936]: xxvi: cf. Martin 1971:
200-5; Hazlitt [1959]1973: 277; Brunner 1987: 38ff.; Hayek 1967: 346)

[G Farris]

In article >,
says...

>
>Paul Krugman thinks it is...at least Keynesian economics, that is.
>


Keynesian economics, which applies a supply-and-demand model to the labor
market, was developed before the advent of large scale spcial programs, which
resulted in a significant proportion of a society being paid more not to work
than they would earn working.

You like sources? LA TRIBUNE (French economic daily) reported yesterday the
results of a governmant analysis which showed that most people presently
benefiting from "reinsertion" welfare will earn less when they actually do get
a job. This is considered to be a big hurdle for Mr Douste-Blazy (minister of
health and "family affairs") who has the daunting task of trying to propose a
reform for this type of social welfare.

[G Farris]

In article >,
says...

>
>
>Gee, what is that, a mantra?
>

I apologize.
I should realize that there is no chance that economists' assertions would be
related to their politics. Thanks for setting us all straight on this.

G Faris

[Matt Barrow]

"Wolfgang Schwanke" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote
> in :
>
> >> Of course, the results of such surveys depend on the political
> leanings
> >> of the authors. Authors who favour a neoliberal policy will come to
> >> results that portray the US as better, so to encourage Europeans to
> >> mimick American policies. Economics isn't a science,
> >
> > Paul Krugman thinks it is...at least Keynesian economics, that is.
>
> And I think neither is.

Which "neither"?

>(Who is Paul Krugman anyway?)
>
> >> it's ideology to a
> >> large extent.

Boy, when my company (on the micro scale) goes through cycles I hope that
some of our brain power comes through, rather than just our ideology.

> >
> > Find the source of their data and report back.
>
> Lemme just mention that there are economists who think that statistics
> are difficult to compare, and that some of the American GNP figures are
> a result of "creative bookkeeping".

Read the report and report back, especially how the authors define how they
dervied their numbers.

>
> IME people who cite the Bergström Report come in two classes:
> A) USAans (because it flatters their national pride, understandable)
> B) Europeans who favour neoliberal policies (saw it in another NG just
> today)
>
> Both groups have in common that they like what it says.

Read the report and report back, then we can abstract in Hong Kong (pre-Red
China turnover), and the other up and coming economies with a contrast to
Eastern Europe and the rest of the third world. (The similarites and the
differences are striking...and seeing similarities is a very neat human
trait).

[G Farris]

In article >,
says...

>
>What the hell is it with all this post-modernist bull****?
>
>
>>French workers have the shortest working week of any country in the


It's easy to be "post-modernist" when faced with arguments dating from the
1930's!!

[Matt Barrow]

"G Farris" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>
> >
> >Paul Krugman thinks it is...at least Keynesian economics, that is.
> >
>
>
> Keynesian economics, which applies a supply-and-demand model to the labor
> market, was developed before the advent of large scale spcial programs,
which
> resulted in a significant proportion of a society being paid more not to
work
> than they would earn working.

Could you cite the part of Keynes work that states this? :~)


> You like sources? LA TRIBUNE (French economic daily) reported yesterday
the
> results of a governmant analysis which showed that most people presently
> benefiting from "reinsertion" welfare will earn less when they actually do
get
> a job. This is considered to be a big hurdle for Mr Douste-Blazy (minister
of
> health and "family affairs") who has the daunting task of trying to
propose a
> reform for this type of social welfare.

That's just their opinion.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"G Farris" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>
> >
> >
> >Gee, what is that, a mantra?
> >
>
> I apologize.
> I should realize that there is no chance that economists' assertions would
be
> related to their politics.

Right out of Marx and his class bahavioral "class".

>Thanks for setting us all straight on this.

Thanks for showing where that PM BS comes from.

[Matt Barrow]

"G Farris" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>
> >
> >What the hell is it with all this post-modernist bull****?
> >
> >
> >>French workers have the shortest working week of any country in the
>
>
> It's easy to be "post-modernist" when faced with arguments dating from the
> 1930's!!

One scribe equates, quite well, post-modernism to schizophrenia.

Alas, substantiation.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:20:29 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:

>> You like sources? LA TRIBUNE (French economic daily) reported yesterday
>the
>> results of a governmant analysis which showed that most people presently
>> benefiting from "reinsertion" welfare will earn less when they actually do
>get
>> a job. This is considered to be a big hurdle for Mr Douste-Blazy (minister
>of
>> health and "family affairs") who has the daunting task of trying to
>propose a
>> reform for this type of social welfare.
>
>That's just their opinion.

and it is a FRENCH opinion. Now come on, you can't be serious with FRENCH
opinions.

#m
--
<http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg>

[G Farris]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>>
>> Keynesian economics, which applies a supply-and-demand model to the labor
>> market, was developed before the advent of large scale spcial programs,
>which
>> resulted in a significant proportion of a society being paid more not to
>work
>> than they would earn working.
>
>Could you cite the part of Keynes work that states this? :~)
>

Let's read my statement again, and I think we'll agree the statement suggests
Keynes work pre-dated this state of affairs, and thus cannot, by itself,
suffice to analyse today's labor market, which has been affected by social
programs beyond any recognition by someone of Keynes' era.


>> You like sources? LA TRIBUNE (French economic daily) reported yesterday
>the
>> results of a governmant analysis which showed that most people presently
>> benefiting from "reinsertion" welfare will earn less when they actually do
>get
>> a job. This is considered to be a big hurdle for Mr Douste-Blazy (minister
>of
>> health and "family affairs") who has the daunting task of trying to
>propose a
>> reform for this type of social welfare.
>
>That's just their opinion.


Which part of it is opinion? I thought you had just demonstrated to us that
economists do not have opinions. Anyway, these "opinions" are far more
pertinent to the present-day situation in France than your 1930's novel.

G Faris
>
>

[Chris]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:03:58 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> > wrote:
> <snip>
>>Social engineering through taxation -- even well-meaning efforts -- almost
>>always seems to have unforeseen consequences.
> You mean something like prohibition? It created a great market for
> the mobs back then.
>

The same is practiced in the US. Its called every man for themselves.
Interesting that the main sneerers of using taxation to tackle the problems
of society does not recognise that his passion of flying is heavily
supported by taxation. Not just the tax on AVGAS that covers squat.

Who funds the FAA, who funds the DODD, who funds airport development, who is
funding the bankrupt airlines, usually taxpayers, either federal, state or
city most all of them. Seems to me like US aviation is one of the biggest
babies sucking on the welfare tit.

[Chris]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Chris wrote:
>> IFR is not a big issue in Europe for the private pilot. So expensive IFR
>> systems like WAAS and GPS enabled approaches are irrelevant. Its
>> interesting
>> that the much hailed Cirrus cannot fly IFR in much of European airspace
>> and
>> in the UK its just a VFR machine.
>
> That's due to assinine regulations put out by our "beloved" CAA. That's
> why Cirrus airplanes in Britain are all on the N-register. Indeed, if I
> was interested in buying an IFR plane, regardless of what it was (even
> if it was a Diamond) I'd have it on the N register to avoid the stupid,
> pointless CAA regulations that *decrease* safety, not increase it.
>

But even a Cirrus on the N register is not legit, no DME, no ADF, no f*****g
good.

[Chris]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Chris" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> news:VAT9e.5840$r53.5583@attbi_s21...
>> >> Decimated since when? Post a reference statistic and time as a
>> >> starting
>> >> point.
>> >
>> > Well, let's start with the fact that France's efforts at flight
>> > pre-date
>> > our own. Is 1903-ish far enough back for you?
>> >
>> >> What taxes particularly are you referring to?
>> >
>> > Avgas taxes. The price of avgas in France (as the subject of this
> thread
>> > states) has now exceeded $7.50 per gallon, solely as a result of their
>> > very aggressive tax policies.
>> >
>> >> Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what
>> >> factors
>> >> make the cost of avgas what it is?
>> >
>> > I presume that they get their petroleum from the same worldwide supply
> as
>> > the U.S. -- yet our avgas is "only" $3.30-ish per gallon.
>> >
>> >> You just pulled thos whole argument out of your ass, dear, and while
>> >> it
>> >> might make an interesting thesis for a classroom debate, you should
> quit
>> >> defending it unless you have a lot of facts to back up your
>> >> assertions.
>> >
>> > As opposed to your well-thought out, carefully crafted
> counter-arguments?
>> >
>> > ;-)
>> >
>> > The facts are clear. It is your unwillingness to accept them that is
>> > puzzling. Why -- especially in an aviation forum -- are you (and
>> > Larry,
>> > Martin, and a couple of other folks) defending a foreign tax system
>> > that
>> > more than DOUBLES the price of aviation? This makes no sense to me.
>> >
>> >> And why are people required to choose aviation as a pursuit based on
> the
>> >> population of their country?
>> >
>> > They're not. But based on the population of France, there should be
> many
>> > times more pilots -- ESPECIALLY given their proud heritage of flight.
>> >
>> > I'm still waiting for an answer: If it's NOT the outrageous cost of
> avgas
>> > that has nearly killed general aviation in France, what is it? Why,
>> > in
>> > the land of Bleriot and Saint-Exupery, are there so (relatively) few
>> > men
>> > and women feeling the call to the skies, if NOT for price
> considerations?
>>
>> The French are more culturally mature and have perhaps outgrown such
>> childish pursuits.
>
> You forgot the :-). It was a joke wasn't it?
Does everything need to be spelt out is such detail. Of course it was a joke
:-(

[Chris]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:SK5ae.8698$NU4.1859@attbi_s22...
>> Move to the city - then there'll be plenty of nearby kids. That will
>> always be a problem in a rural area. If you live in high-density housing
>> in a large city, there will always be random outdoor activities for
>> groups of kids.
>
> We live in a city of 65,000, in a metropolitan area of over 120,000.
>

Cute expression - 65,000 equals a city. That's a town, not much more than a
village.

120,000 a metropolitan area - that's just a big town.

What does it take to become a city in the US?

[Chris]

"Jim" > wrote in message ...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> > So, to summarize: Yes, there is fewer GA in Europe. But even if you
>> > would
>> > wipe all avgas taxes, there wouldn't be more.
>>
>> You admit that predatory taxation has added 25% to the cost of GA in
>> France
>> (which is a gross under-estimation, BTW) -- and in the same breath say
>> that
>> it has NO impact on it?
>>
>> That is the most absurd assertion I've seen in Usenet -- and I've seen
>> some
>> whoppers over the years.
>
> Well let's go back to the premise of the post, that avgas costs $7.50 a
> gallon
> in France. Avgas in France would be priced in Euros, so somebody's
> converting
> Euros to US dollars using the current conversion rate. That's
> mathematically
> accurate, but doesn't tell the whole story. The dollar is very weak to
> the
> euro right now, which affects Americans buying European goods and
> Europeans
> buying American goods, but doesn't affect Europeans buying domestic
> products as
> much. For example, if the price of the dollar versus euros fell tomorrow
> to
> 1/2 of what it is today, it would appear that avgas would cost USD 15.00 a
> gallon. This would appear to American to be much more expensive, but
> would not
> really change what avgas would cost to a French(wo)man in France.
>
> European countries tend to tax consumption higher, the US doesn't. One
> reason
> avgas is kept expensive is because autogas is very expensive to encourage
> public transit and excellent high speed rail service. If avgas would be
> priced
> lower then autogas, there would be an incentive to burn avgas on the road
> (which wouldn't do cat converter much good.) Note that Jet-A is much
> cheaper
> in Europe. This is another reason driving the diesel piston aviation
> engine
> and several European companies are leading this technology.
>
> Aviation gasoline will continue to get more expensive in the US, and
> eventually
> may not be available at any price. It can be found (in the US as of last
> week) selling at $4.82/US Gallon so you can say that the US is working
> hard to
> catch up with France, and that's without all of those European taxes as
> well.
> Avgas is a boutique fuel that must be specially handled and is produced
> in
> very limited quantities compared to other products, with a lot of
> liability for
> the slightest mishap. More and more corporate and other high consumption
> aviation gas consumption has been shifted to aircraft that burn Jet A,
> further
> decreasing the economies of scale for 100ll. Also very importantly, it
> contains a *lot* of tetraethyl lead (despite that LL designation), and
> leaded
> autogas was eventually banned by 1996 in the US for a good reason.
>
> Surprisingly essence avec plomb (super) is still available in France,
> although
> it does cost more then sans plomb so it isn't purchased nearly as much. .
>
On the price of gasoline. In the UK 82% of the price of gasoline is made up
of taxes. Therefore when the cost of the raw material doubles in price the
impact on the final price of the gasoline autogas or avgas is much smaller
than in the US.

Added to the fact that oil is priced in dollars anyway, the deterioration in
the value of the dollar has mitigated to some extent the increase in the oil
costs.

The other fact is that TEL is made in the UK and guess what, the dollar's
decline has made that more expensive. So the cost of AVGAS in the US is
doubly hit. Whereas TEL costs in Europe have not changed.

[G Farris]

In article >,
says...

>> It's easy to be "post-modernist" when faced with arguments dating from the
>> 1930's!!
>
>One scribe equates, quite well, post-modernism to schizophrenia.
>
>Alas, substantiation.
>

Well, I guess I've been shown up! Another, post-modernist, marxist/socialist
schizophrenic. Textbook case no less!

That's some very subtle work - especially the marxist part. Not everyone would
have seen that. I'm afraid it leaves me with little more to say on the
subject.

[Chris]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:fs_9e.7050$c24.5136@attbi_s72...
>> Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China steel.
>> That
>> is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the other
>> made in China crap.
>
> Now you've done it, Jim, you racist pig. How DARE you launch a wholesale
> assault on another culture?
>
> ;-)
>
> Hey, I wonder how many years (months?) it will be before GA in China
> over-takes what's left of GA in France?
>

More to the point will be how quickly GA in China will overtake Ga in the US

[Chris]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote
>>
>> > Sorry, Martin. Here's more bad news for Europe and Austria:
>> >
>> > From AOPA's member news area:
>> > "And with that, Dries dropped a bomb. Diamond, he said, is establishing
>> what
>> > it calls the Diamond China Project, a new manufacturing facility that
> will
>> > be built "about 300 kilometers east of Beijing." Site construction
>> > began
>> one
>> > month ago, and it will be twice the size of Diamond's Austrian
> facility -
>> > and capable of employing 1,700 employees and building 600 aircraft a
> year.
>> > Eventually, all propeller-driven Diamond aircraft will be built at the
>> > Chinese plant, starting with DA40s. The first DA40 will roll out the
>> > so-called "Aviation City" factory doors by year-end."
>>
>> Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China steel.
> That
>> is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the other
>> made in China crap.
>> --
>> Jim in NC
>
> Get used to it, China is the up and coming manufacturing world power.
> They
> will do what Japan did in the '60s and '70s at a scale that will make what
> Japan did look like childs play.

the 20th Century was the century of the US, the 21st will be that of China.
Get used to it.

[Chris]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:Gmdae.2503$RD.1312@trndny02...
> Morgans wrote:
>>
>> How many years will it be until China's quality comes up, like Japan
>> finally
>> did?
>
> About -15.
>
> The question is, how long will it take for Americans to aquire enough
> information about Chinese manufacturers to make informed decisions about
> their products? The Chinese don't seem to have made any effort to brand
> their products.

Why should they. Go to china and see for yourself whets happening there. The
cars on the roads are all western brands made in China, mainly in Shanghai
with the support of the western car companies, Ford, GM, VW etc.
They are soaking up the technology as they have just done with Rover.
The rate of progress is geometric not linear.

With their currency pegged to the dollar they are doing OK and with foreign
reserves conservatively valued at $600bn its easy to see why they do not
want to float the RMB.

Currently the are the second biggest consumer of gasoline and they have not
started yet, they use about a third of all the worlds concrete and about a
quarter of all the worlds steel.

and they can only get better and better and anyone who knows the Chinese,
will know they have a work ethic miles stronger than anything in the west.

and they despise the Japanese.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:42:53 +0100, Chris wrote:

>
>More to the point will be how quickly GA in China will overtake Ga in the US
>

this will be a completely different GA then: flying presonal jets with high
tech equipment, not 20 or more years old spam cans with antique equipment.

#m
--
<http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg>

[Dave Stadt]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >, Morgans wrote:
> > > > Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China
steel.
> > That
> > > > is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the
> > other
> > > > made in China crap.
> > >
> > > Unlikely - Diamond's planes are made of plastic!
>
>
> OHMYGOD!! They'll sneak it through the metal detectors!! :~)
> >
> > I know you are kidding, but I am sure there are some VERY important
steel
> > parts in the "plastic" airplane, too. ;-)
>
> The relief tubes?
>
>
> --
> Matt
> ---------------------
> Matthew W. Barrow
> Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> Montrose, CO

This just in..........Chrysler (or whatever name they are going by now days)
is openly discussing moving some manufacturing to China.

[Chris]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> link.net...
>>
>> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
>> > link.net...
>> >>
>> >> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >
>> >> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
>> >> > link.net...
>> >> >> Given that only a small percentage of Chineese are participating in
>> > their
>> >> >> "new" economy, it will be a long time before this happens.
>> >> >> Remember
>> > that
>> >> >> Japan's economy stalled after they became (and remain) the richest
>> >> > developed
>> >> >> nation on a per capita basis.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Even after their economy puked, what, 2/3rds of it's value?
>> >> > --
>> >> > Matt
>> >> > ---------------------
>> >> > Matthew W. Barrow
>> >> > Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
>> >> > Montrose, CO
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> How are you arriving at that?
>> >>
>> > What was the NIKKEI at it's peak and bottom? It's now at 11,045 and
> wasn't
>> > it at around 40,000 at it's peak in 1990?
>>
>>
>> That is ridculous. Economies are not measured by stock market
>> valuations.
>
> Oh, and what DO they measure?
>
>> The GDP of Japan is larger now than ever before.
>
> Got some NET numbers?
>
>> How would you rate the US
>> economy on that metric?
>
> I'd say it's pretty ****ty, regardless of what the Repubs say.
>
>> The Nasdaq is down 61% from its high five years
>> ago.
>
> Yup and many are STILL paying the price. I know several engineers that are
> making 1/4th what they were five years ago.
>
> Seems the only thing that grown is government.

and how do you pay for government by taxes unless you borrow billions and
let the kids pay it off in taxes in the future.

And in some bizarre way we come right back to the point of this thread.
The $7.50 /gal avgas is due to taxes. The $3.50 /gal avgas is due to little
tax.

What do you think the level of tax will be in the future to pay for all the
borrowing going on today to pay for today's government.

I look at the difference as one of timing. Perhaps in 20 years the US will
be paying $30 / gal for AVGAS when the Europeans are paying $15/gal.

Either that or the US will nuke everyone it owes money to to try and cancel
its debt.

[Chris]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >, Morgans wrote:
>> > Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China steel.
> That
>> > is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the
> other
>> > made in China crap.
>>
>> Unlikely - Diamond's planes are made of plastic!
>
> I know you are kidding, but I am sure there are some VERY important steel
> parts in the "plastic" airplane, too. ;-)
> --
5 years time the Cirrus will be made in China

[Chris]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article . net>,
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote:
>
>> No, there is a fundemental difference. The road tax on gasoline pays for
>> all the roads
>
> are you claiming that, in the USA, the only source of funds to pay for
> roads is
> the tax on gas? In MA we have this excise tax which I thought paid for
> part
> of the road infrastructure.

A tax is a tax, it makes no difference what you call it.

[Chris]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:11:04 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>>> > the good thing is that I drive a car needing about 6 liters per 100
>>> > kilometers (the other car is a diesel needing about 4 to 5 liters per
>>100
>>> > kilometers). So I do care driving a fuelefficient car, because it
>>> > saves
>>me
>>> > money.
>>>
>>> Somebody run the numbers. What is that in miles per gallon? Just
>>> wanted to compare that to my F250 Diesel.
>>
>>About 40MPG and 50MPG for the diesel.
>
> btw my numbers reflect only my cars. this fuel consumption does not
> reflect
> fuel efficient cars. (IIRC this is something like 3 liters per 100
> kilometers)
>
>>Such a car would likely be "useful"
>
> it is always useful to save gas (and money). what is the difference in
> driving 100 miles within a city or "out in the west"?
>
>>out in the west where distances are
>>measured in three or even four digits and those are MILES not klicks.
>
> even in the city and on short distance your consumption is more than
> average.
> it was always weired to see those huge pickups in the city, only the
> driver
> and no passengers, the driver only has this car for ... eee .. no idea.
> hopefuly for fun. no wonder that carpooling lanes can be used when the car
> is occupied by at least _2_ persons.
>
>>But Martin is such a good little milch cow!! He'll do as ordered!
>
> I don't get your point.
>
> I am free to buy whatever car I can afford. But I'd be silly to buy more
> than I would need.

Agreed Martin, I drive a Mercedes 220 CDI and I am getting on long journeys
on the motorway at 80mph about 50/52 miles per Imperial Gallon.

Generally with all the short stuff, I have averaged over the last year
42mpg.

Its not just a question of the price at the pump but the cost of the mile.
This goes a long way to redress the balance between the cost of petrol and
the taxes. Besides by using at a slower rate, perhaps fuel will be available
longer.

[Chris]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:4G5ae.8527$r53.1455@attbi_s21...
>> do you really think because of your security improvements (aheeem) since
>> 'then' there has been no further attack by plane?
>
> Yes.

Get a life, Jay, I really am astounded that you believe that.

[Chris]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Montblack wrote:
>> I'm 100% serious, I wonder why this is? Almost no kids over 14 play
>> soccor
>> here, unless they're on an organized team.
>
> Probably because soccer is the most overrated sport in existence.
>
> I also observed when I was living in the US, soccer tended to be a
> girl's game - as did field hockey (to the extent that I read in a
> newspaper a couple of years ago how a boy who wanted to play hockey had
> to wear the girl's uniform, including a skirt, to play it...)
>
> Which always seemed strange. Field hockey is a vicious game, I was
> forced to play it at school and hated every second of it. The only
> violent game I remotely enjoyed was rugby (even though I was crap at
> it).
>

Now you are talking Dylan, rugby a real mans game. In the context of this
thread something the French are good at except that the English are world
champions. He he!

[Chris]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dylan Smith" > wrote
>
>> I also observed when I was living in the US, soccer tended to be a
>> girl's game -
>
> It is slowly changing.
>
> One problem, at least in NC, is that the boy's soccer season is at the
> same
> time as football. The most athletic boys go for the glamour of football
> (the one with the funny shaped ball that doesn't bounce right), and the
> smaller, speedy types go for soccer.
> --

Can never understand why they call it football when the last thing they want
to do is kick the ball.
real football is what you call soccer which is a name I hate.

[Matt Whiting]

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> "Wolfgang Schwanke" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Matt Barrow" > wrote in
:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/ (EU vs. USA) by a think tank in
>>>Stockholm, Sweden Read particularly the summary at the bottom and some
>>>of he charts comparing the various EU countries against the US.
>>
>>Of course, the results of such surveys depend on the political leanings
>>of the authors. Authors who favour a neoliberal policy will come to
>>results that portray the US as better, so to encourage Europeans to
>>mimick American policies. Economics isn't a science, it's ideology to a
>>large extent.
>
>
> Very true!

I think economics is relatively science based, but the interpretations
are often ideological. However, that is true with many fields.
Everything from physics to astronomy to geology to archeology.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>>
>>>"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>>>>
>>>>>Given that only a small percentage of Chineese are participating in
>>
>>their
>>
>>>>>"new" economy, it will be a long time before this happens. Remember
>>
>>that
>>
>>>>>Japan's economy stalled after they became (and remain) the richest
>>>>
>>>>developed
>>>>
>>>>>nation on a per capita basis.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Even after their economy puked, what, 2/3rds of it's value?
>>>>--
>>>>Matt
>>>>---------------------
>>>>Matthew W. Barrow
>>>>Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
>>>>Montrose, CO
>>>
>>>
>>>How are you arriving at that?
>>>
>>
>>What was the NIKKEI at it's peak and bottom? It's now at 11,045 and wasn't
>>it at around 40,000 at it's peak in 1990?
>
>
>
> That is ridculous. Economies are not measured by stock market valuations.
> The GDP of Japan is larger now than ever before. How would you rate the US
> economy on that metric? The Nasdaq is down 61% from its high five years
> ago.

Very true. Stock market valuations measure only the investing
communities optimitism or pessimism about future stock prices. :-)


Matt

[Montblack]

("Chris" wrote)
>> You forgot the :-). It was a joke wasn't it?
> Does everything need to be spelt out is such detail. Of course it was a
> joke :-(


I'll tell you what's NOT funny - go back and look at your posts. Your one
line reply is at the bottom of gobs and gobs of text from previous posts.

Trim please, as it's somewhat inefficient for us readers/lurkers trying to
keep up with these threads otherwise. Thanks :-)


Montblack

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Chris" > wrote:

> >> No, there is a fundemental difference. The road tax on gasoline pays for
> >> all the roads
> >
> > are you claiming that, in the USA, the only source of funds to pay for
> > roads is
> > the tax on gas? In MA we have this excise tax which I thought paid for
> > part
> > of the road infrastructure.
>
> A tax is a tax, it makes no difference what you call it.

the name of the tax was not what I questioned.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Morgans" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > In article >, Morgans wrote:
> > > > > Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China
> steel.
> > > That
> > > > > is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all
the
> > > other
> > > > > made in China crap.
> > > >
> > > > Unlikely - Diamond's planes are made of plastic!
> >
> >
> > OHMYGOD!! They'll sneak it through the metal detectors!! :~)
> > >
> > > I know you are kidding, but I am sure there are some VERY important
> steel
> > > parts in the "plastic" airplane, too. ;-)
> >
> > The relief tubes?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Matt
> > ---------------------
> > Matthew W. Barrow
> > Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> > Montrose, CO
>
> This just in..........Chrysler (or whatever name they are going by now
days)
> is openly discussing moving some manufacturing to China.

In their case, that would be an improvement.

[Matt Barrow]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
> > "Wolfgang Schwanke" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>"Matt Barrow" > wrote in
> :
> >>
> >>
> >>>http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/ (EU vs. USA) by a think tank in
> >>>Stockholm, Sweden Read particularly the summary at the bottom and some
> >>>of he charts comparing the various EU countries against the US.
> >>
> >>Of course, the results of such surveys depend on the political leanings
> >>of the authors. Authors who favour a neoliberal policy will come to
> >>results that portray the US as better, so to encourage Europeans to
> >>mimick American policies. Economics isn't a science, it's ideology to a
> >>large extent.
> >
> >
> > Very true!
>
> I think economics is relatively science based, but the interpretations
> are often ideological. However, that is true with many fields.
> Everything from physics to astronomy to geology to archeology.
>
It would be if you confuse/conflate the DATA and the INTERPRETATION and the
SUGGESTED ACTION.

Of course, for someone, or an entire culture, that is used to being led by
the nose (Europe and other statist cultures) by their media, schools,
priests, government, etc., it becomes a big problem.

[Matt Barrow]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
> > "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >>
> >>>"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>>"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >>>>
> >>>>>Given that only a small percentage of Chineese are participating in
> >>
> >>their
> >>
> >>>>>"new" economy, it will be a long time before this happens. Remember
> >>
> >>that
> >>
> >>>>>Japan's economy stalled after they became (and remain) the richest
> >>>>
> >>>>developed
> >>>>
> >>>>>nation on a per capita basis.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Even after their economy puked, what, 2/3rds of it's value?
> >>>>--
> >>>>Matt
> >>>>---------------------
> >>>>Matthew W. Barrow
> >>>>Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> >>>>Montrose, CO
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>How are you arriving at that?
> >>>
> >>
> >>What was the NIKKEI at it's peak and bottom? It's now at 11,045 and
wasn't
> >>it at around 40,000 at it's peak in 1990?
> >
> >
> >
> > That is ridculous. Economies are not measured by stock market
valuations.
> > The GDP of Japan is larger now than ever before. How would you rate the
US
> > economy on that metric? The Nasdaq is down 61% from its high five years
> > ago.
>
> Very true. Stock market valuations measure only the investing
> communities optimitism or pessimism about future stock prices. :-)
>
Based on..... :~)

[Dave Stadt]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "> >
> > This just in..........Chrysler (or whatever name they are going by now
> days)
> > is openly discussing moving some manufacturing to China.
>
> In their case, that would be an improvement.

Based on the quality problems Mercedes is having they might benefit from a
trip to China also.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:30:40 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:

>> Very true. Stock market valuations measure only the investing
>> communities optimitism or pessimism about future stock prices. :-)
>>
>Based on..... :~)

Please do me only ONE favour: TRIM YOUR POSTINGS! Please!
there is no need to quote _all_ the irrelevant text (but the text you are
referring to).

thanks again,

martin

follow up to poster (this means: no further discussions here, reply by mail
if there is a need to do so)

--
<http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg>

[Chris]

>
> Trim please, as it's somewhat inefficient for us readers/lurkers trying to
> keep up with these threads otherwise. Thanks :-)

wilco!

[Chris]

will come to
>> >>results that portray the US as better, so to encourage Europeans to
>> >>mimick American policies. Economics isn't a science, it's ideology to a
>> >>large extent.
>> >
>> >
>> > Very true!
>>
>> I think economics is relatively science based, but the interpretations
>> are often ideological. However, that is true with many fields.
>> Everything from physics to astronomy to geology to archeology.
>>
> It would be if you confuse/conflate the DATA and the INTERPRETATION and
> the
> SUGGESTED ACTION.
>
> Of course, for someone, or an entire culture, that is used to being led by
> the nose (Europe and other statist cultures) by their media, schools,
> priests, government, etc., it becomes a big problem.

Sounds like the US this, Christian fundamentalists, the gun lobby, the
growing government, all trying to tell people how to live. Take the recent
Schiavo case. Fancy Congress coming in at the weekend to pass a law to
interfere like that.
Worthy of the communists/fascists. As for media you buy the side that suits
your views.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "> >
> > > This just in..........Chrysler (or whatever name they are going by now
> > days)
> > > is openly discussing moving some manufacturing to China.
> >
> > In their case, that would be an improvement.
>
> Based on the quality problems Mercedes is having they might benefit from a
> trip to China also.
>

Didn't MB move a lot of their production to Alabama or some such place?

[Roger]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:55:04 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
> wrote:

<snip>
>
>I'd bet that Denver Intl (Frederico Pena's monument to himself) cost as much
>as the rest of GA airports combined
>

Man, what a place! I arrived via road well before sunup to catch the
early flight home. It seemed like the drive went on for hours when I
saw a line of lights, a very long line, extending from right to left.
They were the toll gates into the parking lot. I don't know how many
gates, but I'd never seen that many. That parking lot probably has
square miles of concrete, or it sure seemed like it.

They have their own subway system and believe the signs when they tell
you to hang on. Those are to keep you from ending up in a pile at the
end of the car when it acellerates.

I've been into ORD many times but it doesn't seem near as big as DIA.

I wonder if they ever did get their multi-million dollar automated
baggage facility fully functional?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>> The
>> taxes on GA don't cover the services and facilities that GA uses
>exclusively
>>
>> I don't think that any of them were during the enroute phase of flight.
>>
>It doesn't say.
>

[Morgans]

"Chris" > wrote a meanless one line comment

> Does everything need to be spelt out is such detail. Of course it was a
joke
> :-(

Damn, Chris. Don't be lazy. Snip your posts.
--
Jim in NC

[Dave Stadt]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "> >
> > > > This just in..........Chrysler (or whatever name they are going by
now
> > > days)
> > > > is openly discussing moving some manufacturing to China.
> > >
> > > In their case, that would be an improvement.
> >
> > Based on the quality problems Mercedes is having they might benefit from
a
> > trip to China also.
> >
>
> Didn't MB move a lot of their production to Alabama or some such place?

Yes, but their problems are world wide. Chrysler has rubbed off it would
seem.

[Matt Whiting]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Mike Rapoport wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Given that only a small percentage of Chineese are participating in
>>>>
>>>>their
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>"new" economy, it will be a long time before this happens. Remember
>>>>
>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>Japan's economy stalled after they became (and remain) the richest
>>>>>>
>>>>>>developed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>nation on a per capita basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Even after their economy puked, what, 2/3rds of it's value?
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>Matt
>>>>>>---------------------
>>>>>>Matthew W. Barrow
>>>>>>Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
>>>>>>Montrose, CO
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>How are you arriving at that?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>What was the NIKKEI at it's peak and bottom? It's now at 11,045 and
>
> wasn't
>
>>>>it at around 40,000 at it's peak in 1990?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That is ridculous. Economies are not measured by stock market
>
> valuations.
>
>>>The GDP of Japan is larger now than ever before. How would you rate the
>
> US
>
>>>economy on that metric? The Nasdaq is down 61% from its high five years
>>>ago.
>>
>>Very true. Stock market valuations measure only the investing
>>communities optimitism or pessimism about future stock prices. :-)
>>
>
> Based on..... :~)

The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham.


Matt

[Morgans]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote
>
> The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham.
>
>
> Matt

You too, Matt. Snip your posts.
--
Jim in NC

[Montblack]

("Chris" wrote)
>> Trim please, as it's somewhat inefficient for us readers/lurkers trying
>> to keep up with these threads otherwise. Thanks :-)
>
> wilco!


Thank you.

....straight in for any runway. <g>


Montblack

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote
>
>>The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham.
>>
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> You too, Matt. Snip your posts.

Don't read 'em.

MAtt

[Matt Barrow]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
> >
> >>>economy on that metric? The Nasdaq is down 61% from its high five
years
> >>>ago.
> >>
> >>Very true. Stock market valuations measure only the investing
> >>communities optimitism or pessimism about future stock prices. :-)
> >>
> >
> > Based on..... :~)
>
> The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham.

I meant "What generates their optimism or pessimism?".

Why does the stock market lead/go in the same direct as "The Economy®"?

One thing about the stock market, it can't be BS'ed too long, regardless of
the crap the Feds and the media put out.

The market started to tank in March, 2000, even though the administration
then was telling everyone that things were fine, right up to the November
elections that year.

Then too, it can be foolishly optimistic (I hate the "irrationally
exuberant" poop), as in the dot.com craze. Yet, how much did the murder of
the telecom industry have to do with the dot.com collapse and
subsequent/parallel market implosion?

[Matt Barrow]

[requested snip]

Okay!

[Matt Barrow]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > You too, Matt. Snip your posts.
>
> Don't read 'em.
>

Yeah, then you'll complain that nobody listens to you :~)

[Matt Whiting]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>You too, Matt. Snip your posts.
>>
>>Don't read 'em.
>>
>
>
> Yeah, then you'll complain that nobody listens to you :~)

I don't mind if the net nannies don't listen! :-)

Matt

[Jay Honeck]

> you are most likely using Windows XP. go to "start" -> "run". type
"cmd"
> without the hyphens -> enter. now you have a black window. now type
> (without hyphens): "ping 82.150.192.1" -> enter. now you see your
computer
> sending out packets and the time it needs. after sending 3 or 4
packtes it
> shows you a summary. you should have an average time of something
like
> 150msec to reach this target (it is one of my nameservers here in
Austria).

Average time: 194 milliseconds.


> You can by no means make this faster, because light takes it time
across
> the Atlantic ocean. :-) .. but you can try "ping
www.alexisparkinn.com" ->
> enter. you will resolve to the IP 69.36.241.130 and might have times
below
> 80ms.

Average time: 154 milliseconds. It only took 40 milliseconds more to
go to Austria, versus pinging Jav Henderson's server in Southern
California.

Amazing stuff, this internet.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > > Ahem...120,000 is not now and never will be a "metro area".
> >
> > Think again. In Iowa, and other Midwest and plains states, that is
a
> > downright huge metro area. Such as are the wide open spaces in the
US.
> > --
> The feds consider a "Metro Area" to be 1 million population or more
and have
> since the 60's I think.

In the Midwest, where towns can be separated by vast distances, a
metropolitan area is quite different from the traditional "big city"
metro area. Yet, because of the distances involved, you will often
find all of the things normally associated with larger cities in a
(relatively) small group of communities.

I'm always surprised to find communities like Iowa City (or places like
Rapid City, SD and Lincoln NE, to name a couple of others) that have
amenities that you just would not expect to find outside major metro
areas.

Iowa City's "hook" is our 600 pound gorilla, the University of Iowa --
but many other small Midwest communities have "Big City fare" simply
because of their isolation. They thus have a "Big City feel" combined
with all the advantages of small town life -- a perfect combination,
IMHO.

I often wonder how the internet will affect this phenomenon. Now that
it is possible to have "next-day-air" delivery virtually anywhere, and
you can order anything instantly off the internet, how long will it be
until people REALLY disperse all over the countryside, completely
dispensing with the rudiments of what we consider "community"...?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

Yeah, I own a bunch of Delta woodworking power tools -- from back in
the days when they were made in the USA.

When I bought my Jet jointer, it was almost unbelievably expensive --
and a power planer was nearly unaffordable. Now, ALL are affordable,
and appear to be virtually identical to my tools -- with the exception
that they are now all made in China.

The amazing thing (to me) is that they can make something heavy like a
planer, ship it all the way around the world -- and STILL be less than
50% as expensive as their American counterparts. It's frightening in
a way.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> >> do you really think because of your security improvements (aheeem)
since
> >> 'then' there has been no further attack by plane?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Get a life, Jay, I really am astounded that you believe that.

I know I shouldn't ask this, but what,in your opinion,if NOT improved
security measures, has prevented another 9/11-style attack?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[leslie]

Dave Stadt ) wrote:
:
: This just in..........Chrysler (or whatever name they are going by now
: days) is openly discussing moving some manufacturing to China.
:

GM already build some Buick models in Communist China and plans to build
Cadillacs there too:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?G266514A8
General Motors Officially Launches Cadillac Brand in China

The original link, wrapped to 2 lines:

http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2004/June-2004/June-2004-2/
June-09-04-p1.htm
General Motors Officially Launches Cadillac Brand in China

"General Motors Officially Launches Cadillac Brand in China
Will Redefine Luxury Segment in World's Fastest-Growing Market

"Beijing, China - During a ceremony at Beijing's Imperial Ancestors'
Temple, a symbol of ancient China, General Motors officially launched
Cadillac, its premium luxury brand for modern China.

Three new Cadillac models that will be sold in China - the CTS, SRX
and XLR - were unveiled at the ceremony. All three products embody
Cadillac's distinctive bold design, purposeful innovation and balanced
performance.

The high-performance, rear-wheel-drive Cadillac CTS luxury sedan will
enter the China market this fall. The Cadillac SRX, which features the
comfort of a luxury sport sedan combined with the versatility of a
sport-utility vehicle, will enter the market later this year. The
Cadillac XLR, the brand's flagship luxury roadster, will be available
in China in early 2005.

All three models will start as imports from GM's North American
Operations. They will be built at the company's Grand River
manufacturing facility in Lansing, Michigan, and at its facility in
Bowling Green, Kentucky. Both the CTS and SRX will be assembled soon
thereafter at Shanghai General Motors Company Limited (Shanghai GM),
making the joint venture of GM and Shanghai Automotive Industry
Corporation Group (SAIC) the only facility outside the United States
to produce Cadillacs. GM will collaborate with Shanghai GM to market
and distribute Cadillac vehicles in China.

In conjunction with the launch of the brand, GM has begun building an
exclusive Cadillac dealership network in China. A family of new and
exclusive Cadillac dealerships will begin opening in August 2004 in 11
major Chinese cities such as Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou.

The authorized sales and aftersales network is comprised of the best
dealers in China, which were selected based on a rigid set of
criteria. All Cadillac facilities in China will offer the best of the
best premium customer experience.

"We are proud to be taking GM into an important new high-growth market
segment in China," said Phil Murtaugh, Chairman and CEO of the GM
China Group. "Introducing Cadillac is part of our strategy of moving
fast to address the needs of our customers. By setting a new standard
in the premium luxury segment, Cadillac will contribute to the
continued development and industry leadership of GM in China. At the
same time, it will help create new opportunities for GM's global
operations in the world's fastest-growing vehicle market."

According to Chen Hong, President of Shanghai GM and Vice President of
SAIC, "Cadillac is an important part of Shanghai GM's multi-brand
strategy. It will take the image of Shanghai GM to a new level while
giving us the widest range of products in the broadest range of
segments. We are confident the combination of Shanghai GM's strong
competitiveness, expanding operating capacity, world-class
manufacturing capability, and industry-leading sales and aftersales
service will help ensure Cadillac's long-term success in China."

"Over the last 100 years, Cadillac has won worldwide acclaim for
setting the standard for luxury in the automotive industry. As it
embarks on its second century, Cadillac continues to set the standard
for luxury," said Mark LaNeve, General Manager of Cadillac. "China
represents a key component of Cadillac's global growth strategy. We
look forward to working with GM China and Shanghai GM to ensure that
Cadillac becomes the brand of choice among luxury vehicle buyers in
China."

Shanghai GM is a 50-50 joint venture that produces and markets
vehicles, engines and transmissions. Established in 1997, it currently
manufactures the Buick Regal upper-medium sedan, Buick Excelle
lower-medium sedan, Buick Sail small car and Buick GL8 executive
wagon. Shanghai GM has adopted many of GM's advanced manufacturing
systems and processes such as the Global Manufacturing System. Its
products have been certified equal in terms of quality to those built
by GM facilities elsewhere around the world.

Earlier today, GM and SAIC announced that Shanghai GM would increase
its annual production capacity from 200,000 vehicles to 450,000
vehicles to support its aggressive new product plans, including the
introduction of Cadillac. The expanded facility is expected to begin
operation in 2005. GM and SAIC also announced their intention to
expand Shanghai GM's engine plant.

(June 7, 2004)"


--Jerry Leslie
Note: is invalid for email

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> > >> do you really think because of your security improvements (aheeem)
> since
> > >> 'then' there has been no further attack by plane?
> > >
> > > Yes.
> >
> > Get a life, Jay, I really am astounded that you believe that.
>
> I know I shouldn't ask this, but what,in your opinion,if NOT improved
> security measures, has prevented another 9/11-style attack?

http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4189

Stupid Airport Security 2
by Walter Williams (April 12, 2005)

Hundreds of readers responded to last week's column about airport security.
These were letters from Americans who fit no terrorist profile -- airline
pilots, mothers traveling with children, disabled people, elderly and other
law-abiding Americans -- and yet were frisked, groped and hassled. The
Transportation Security Administration (TSA) behaves as if all passengers
and all baggage pose an equal security threat, and that's stupid, because
not nearly all passengers and baggage pose a security threat.

////////////

[Morgans]

"leslie" > wrote

> : This just in..........Chrysler (or whatever name they are going by now
> : days) is openly discussing moving some manufacturing to China.
> :
>
> GM already build some Buick models in Communist China and plans to build
> Cadillacs there too:

China is the best at making copies, and learning manufacturing methods from
other companies. It will not be making US cars for long, before they have
learned what they need, then they will be using what they have learned to
begin producing their own brands. They are the best at stealing patents,
and making what they want, under their own brands.

Just wait and see. It will not take long.
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>> >> do you really think because of your security improvements (aheeem)
> since
>> >> 'then' there has been no further attack by plane?
>> >
>> > Yes.
>>
>> Get a life, Jay, I really am astounded that you believe that.
>
> I know I shouldn't ask this, but what,in your opinion,if NOT improved
> security measures, has prevented another 9/11-style attack?

What, in your opinion, if NOT improved security measures, has prevented any
pink elephants from boarding commercial airline flights?

Ignoring, for a moment, that the latest GAO report indicates that post-9/11
security is not in fact improved, even if it had been improved, the lack of
any further attacks doesn't in any way suggest that it's the security itself
responsible for the lack of further attacks.

Pete

[Chris]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>> >> do you really think because of your security improvements (aheeem)
> since
>> >> 'then' there has been no further attack by plane?
>> >
>> > Yes.
>>
>> Get a life, Jay, I really am astounded that you believe that.
>
> I know I shouldn't ask this, but what,in your opinion,if NOT improved
> security measures, has prevented another 9/11-style attack?

The terrorists do not need to do another 9/11 style attack. They have
achieved their end. They have caused more difficulties for all Americans
than the 4000 killed in 9/11.

Life will never be the same again - that's a result.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:27:43 GMT, Matt Whiting wrote:

>> You too, Matt. Snip your posts.
>
>Don't read 'em.

this is asocial.

your posting is ditributed to thousands of newsservers, no matter if
someone reads it or not. It might seem like nitpicking, because the posting
is only some k small (and bandwidth-costs have dropped; but you are very
welcome to start as an ISP and see the total costs involved). But keep in
mind that newsservice is mostly only running at your ISP because there is
one employee loving to keep this service running. And multiple your few k
of useless quoting with thousand newsservers with hundreds of people with
your bad attitude.

>MAtt

#m
--
<http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg>

[Martin Hotze]

On 23 Apr 2005 19:02:54 -0700, Jay Honeck wrote:

(...)
>> (without hyphens): "ping 82.150.192.1" -> enter. now you see your
(...)
>
>Average time: 194 milliseconds.

ah. OK. depends on time and network usage.

(...)
>> the Atlantic ocean. :-) .. but you can try "ping
>www.alexisparkinn.com" ->
(...)
>Average time: 154 milliseconds. It only took 40 milliseconds more to
>go to Austria, versus pinging Jav Henderson's server in Southern
>California.

hmm, then I assume a bad time of day or a network congestion on your side
or at the server's side (I doubt the latter).

This is not typical that it takes almost the same time. (FYI: you have a
minimum of 80ms to cross the Atlantic; SLAs in the US are typiclly below
50ms RTT within the continental USA, but add 20 to 40 ms from your PC to
the core system of your ISP, another 10 ms from the other core system to
the target. So, typically you should be below 100ms within the continental
USA)

>Amazing stuff, this internet.

go to http://www.traceroute.org/ - there you can pick hosts all over the
world and check the way and speed of those IP packets.

you can also traceroute from your PC: open again this black box, type
"tracert www.alexisparkinn", then you will see all hops an IP packet makes
to reach the target. But keep in mind that the way through the net might
change in the next minute [that's how the net works, better, how it is able
to survuve]).

#m
--
<http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg>

[Martin Hotze]

On 23 Apr 2005 20:25:21 -0700, Jay Honeck wrote:

>> Get a life, Jay, I really am astounded that you believe that.
>
>I know I shouldn't ask this, but what,in your opinion,if NOT improved
>security measures, has prevented another 9/11-style attack?

what has prevented that there has been no such attack pre 9/11? luck?

#m
--
<http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg>

[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:40:57 -0400, Bob Noel
> wrote:

>are you claiming that, in the USA, the only source of funds to pay for roads is
>the tax on gas? In MA we have this excise tax which I thought paid for part
>of the road infrastructure.

I think it's worse than that: the gas tax often pays also for bicycle
paths, removing billboards, commuter rail, and a host of other
"wouldn't it be nice if ..." pet projects of legislators.

In New Hampshire, anyhow, the big roads are mostly toll roads,
especially if they are mostly for the convenience of people who live
in Massachusetts or commute to work there.

And local real estate taxes pay for town roads.

So it's quite a mix.




-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Chris" > wrote:

> The terrorists do not need to do another 9/11 style attack. They have
> achieved their end. They have caused more difficulties for all Americans
> than the 4000 killed in 9/11.

You claim to know the objective of the attacks?

--
Bob Noel
(please trim your replies - thank you)

[Cub Driver]

On 23 Apr 2005 19:21:13 -0700, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:

>I often wonder how the internet will affect this phenomenon. Now that
>it is possible to have "next-day-air" delivery virtually anywhere, and
>you can order anything instantly off the internet, how long will it be
>until people REALLY disperse all over the countryside, completely
>dispensing with the rudiments of what we consider "community"...?

Well, speaking in terms of states (rather than dispersal within
states), OpinionJournal
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110006596 has a chart of
projected population growth by 2030.

The fastest-growing states by 2030 are shown as Nevada, Arizona,
Florida, Texas, Utah, Idaho, North Carolina, Georgia, Washington, and
Oregon.

Except for New Hampshire (15th: ugh!), the Northeast is essentially
irrelevant.

The top ten states in 2030 are shown are California, Texas, Florida,
New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, North Carolina (!), Georgia, Ohio,
and Arizona.

Florida displacing New York at 3! North Carolina displacing Ohio at 7!

Don't give all the credit to the internet. UPS has a lot to do with
it, too :)



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:25:42 +0100, "Chris" >
wrote:

>What does it take to become a city in the US?

In New Hampshire, a town could apply for a city charter when its
poulation reached 25,000, and there were a couple or three cities
whose population was less, because they'd graduated in an earlier and
less restrictive time.

Dunno if that rule still pertains. Towns are now able to adopt a
council form of government, so there is less pressure for a large town
to become a city. (New Hampshire was once a bastion of Town Meeting
government, each citizen able to trek to the town hall or school
auditorium on the second Tuesday of March and state his opinion on the
great issues of the day. Tragically, the Good People are increasingly
ruling out that wonderful system.)


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> I know I shouldn't ask this, but what,in your opinion,if NOT improved
> security measures, has prevented another 9/11-style attack?

Since we don't know if another 9/11-style attack was attempted, we
cannot determine what prevented it.

Also consider that the planning for the 9/11 attack appears to have
been patiently done over the course of years.

(I do not want to get started talking about how security measures haven't
actually been improved)

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> I often wonder how the internet will affect this phenomenon. Now that
> it is possible to have "next-day-air" delivery virtually anywhere, and
> you can order anything instantly off the internet, how long will it be
> until people REALLY disperse all over the countryside, completely
> dispensing with the rudiments of what we consider "community"...?

A long time I hope. It is usually pretty easy around here to tell the
"flat landers" (no offense Jay) from the locals. Just last weekend our
church group went rafting down a local gorge. When we ferried the
vehicles to the downstream end, we had to drive down a dead-end road to
turn the trailer around to park it at a camp on this same road that is
owned by one of our church members. After turning around and starting
back, an older guy stops us and starts complaining about people who
drive down "his" road and turn around in front of his camp. This is
pretty odd behavior for this area, but I just brushed him off and went
on my way. Later, we stopped for coffee at a local general store on our
way back to launch the rafts. This same old man comes into the store.
At that time, one of the men in our group said he recognized him. He
used to live near him in downstate PA (where the flat landers live). At
that point it all clicked. The folks from Philly come up to northern PA
to "get away from it all", but then bring their nasty and unfriendly
attitudes right along with them.

Matt

[Dave Stadt]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On 23 Apr 2005 20:25:21 -0700, Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> >> Get a life, Jay, I really am astounded that you believe that.
> >
> >I know I shouldn't ask this, but what,in your opinion,if NOT improved
> >security measures, has prevented another 9/11-style attack?
>
> what has prevented that there has been no such attack pre 9/11? luck?

Luck is as good an answer as any.

[George Patterson]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> The fastest-growing states by 2030 are shown as Nevada, Arizona,
> Florida, Texas, Utah, Idaho, North Carolina, Georgia, Washington, and
> Oregon.

Arizona, North Carolina, and Florida get most of their growth these days from
retirees. I suppose most of the rest are mainly attracting businesses? Georgia
certainly is.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George Patterson]

Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>The folks from Philly come up to northern PA
> to "get away from it all", but then bring their nasty and unfriendly
> attitudes right along with them.

The real problems start when enough of them move in to be able to legislate
their attitudes into law.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Chris]

> You claim to know the objective of the attacks?
>
No, but just look at what terrorists have done over the years. Strike and
watch the chaos.

[Morgans]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:ZLRae.3528$WX.26@trndny01...
> Cub Driver wrote:
> >
> > The fastest-growing states by 2030 are shown as Nevada, Arizona,
> > Florida, Texas, Utah, Idaho, North Carolina, Georgia, Washington, and
> > Oregon.
>
> Arizona, North Carolina, and Florida get most of their growth these days
from
> retirees. I suppose most of the rest are mainly attracting businesses?
Georgia
> certainly is.

Where did you get that info? NC, for one, is growing leaps and bounds in
the research triangle area, which is Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill. The
ocean, up and down the coast is booming, for tourism and the services
required to service the tourists.

No doubt, there are some retirees settling along the coast, but that is not
the largest percentage of property use; rather rentals and time shares.

Look at the growth of the Charlotte area. They are building a couple new
large high schools, every year. Retirees don't have that many kids. ;-)
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> Hundreds of readers responded to last week's column about airport
> security.
> These were letters from Americans who fit no terrorist profile -- airline
> pilots, mothers traveling with children, disabled people, elderly and
> other
> law-abiding Americans -- and yet were frisked, groped and hassled. The
> Transportation Security Administration (TSA) behaves as if all passengers
> and all baggage pose an equal security threat, and that's stupid, because
> not nearly all passengers and baggage pose a security threat.

This article seems to indicate that:

a) Airport security HAS been improved, since they are frisking everyone.
(They certainly never did that pre-9/11)

and

b) Political correctness, dictated by umpteen zillion stupid lawsuits over
the years, dictates that the TSA must frisk EVERYONE, even though any idiot
knows that a 93 year old woman in a wheelchair is probably not a security
risk. It's a sign of the times, not of the TSA.

How does this article support your point?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> you can also traceroute from your PC: open again this black box, type
> "tracert www.alexisparkinn", then you will see all hops an IP packet makes

Neat-o. Fun to watch all the twists and turns it took to get to Jav's
server!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>>The folks from Philly come up to northern PA to "get away from it all",
>>but then bring their nasty and unfriendly attitudes right along with them.
>
> The real problems start when enough of them move in to be able to
> legislate their attitudes into law.

Yeah, that danged "majority rules" thing always seems to ruin a good
thing...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Cute expression - 65,000 equals a city. That's a town, not much more than
> a village.
>
> 120,000 a metropolitan area - that's just a big town.
>
> What does it take to become a city in the US?

Where do you live, Chris?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave Stadt]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:8GUae.17388$NU4.3706@attbi_s22...
> > Hundreds of readers responded to last week's column about airport
> > security.
> > These were letters from Americans who fit no terrorist profile --
airline
> > pilots, mothers traveling with children, disabled people, elderly and
> > other
> > law-abiding Americans -- and yet were frisked, groped and hassled. The
> > Transportation Security Administration (TSA) behaves as if all
passengers
> > and all baggage pose an equal security threat, and that's stupid,
because
> > not nearly all passengers and baggage pose a security threat.
>
> This article seems to indicate that:
>
> a) Airport security HAS been improved, since they are frisking everyone.
> (They certainly never did that pre-9/11)
>
> and
>
> b) Political correctness, dictated by umpteen zillion stupid lawsuits over
> the years, dictates that the TSA must frisk EVERYONE, even though any
idiot
> knows that a 93 year old woman in a wheelchair is probably not a security
> risk. It's a sign of the times, not of the TSA.
>
> How does this article support your point?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"


Like it or not Norm Mineta is the big reason profiling is not allowed. His
parents were sent to the Japanese camps in WWII and it is his way of getting
even.

Frisking everyone has little to no effect on security. There are dozens of
other ways to get what terrorist need on to airplanes.

The lawsuits could be prevented by a simple act of congress. I doubt there
ever were lawsuits but it is an easy scapegoat for the PC ninnies.

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:8GUae.17388$NU4.3706@attbi_s22...
> > Hundreds of readers responded to last week's column about airport
> > security.
> > These were letters from Americans who fit no terrorist profile --
airline
> > pilots, mothers traveling with children, disabled people, elderly and
> > other
> > law-abiding Americans -- and yet were frisked, groped and hassled. The
> > Transportation Security Administration (TSA) behaves as if all
passengers
> > and all baggage pose an equal security threat, and that's stupid,
because
> > not nearly all passengers and baggage pose a security threat.
>
> This article seems to indicate that:
>
> a) Airport security HAS been improved, since they are frisking everyone.
> (They certainly never did that pre-9/11)
>
> and
>
> b) Political correctness, dictated by umpteen zillion stupid lawsuits over
> the years, dictates that the TSA must frisk EVERYONE, even though any
idiot
> knows that a 93 year old woman in a wheelchair is probably not a security
> risk. It's a sign of the times, not of the TSA.
>
> How does this article support your point?

Think of the Magginot line.

[Matt Barrow]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> The fastest-growing states by 2030 are shown as Nevada, Arizona,
> Florida, Texas, Utah, Idaho, North Carolina, Georgia, Washington, and
> Oregon.
>
> Except for New Hampshire (15th: ugh!), the Northeast is essentially
> irrelevant.
>
> The top ten states in 2030 are shown are California, Texas, Florida,
> New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, North Carolina (!), Georgia, Ohio,
> and Arizona.
>
> Florida displacing New York at 3! North Carolina displacing Ohio at 7!
>
> Don't give all the credit to the internet. UPS has a lot to do with
> it, too :)

I knew their drivers could be promiscuous, but I had no idea....

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:ZLRae.3528$WX.26@trndny01...
> Cub Driver wrote:
> >
> > The fastest-growing states by 2030 are shown as Nevada, Arizona,
> > Florida, Texas, Utah, Idaho, North Carolina, Georgia, Washington, and
> > Oregon.
>
> Arizona, North Carolina, and Florida get most of their growth these days
from
> retirees.

Arizona's retiree parade (snow birds) ended about five years ago.

According to my in-laws in Scottsdale (year-round residents), Arizona priced
themselves out of the retiree market except for the Yuma area.

Arizona has been picking up a lot of the businesses pulling out of
California, but that prize is mainly going to Nevada.

> I suppose most of the rest are mainly attracting businesses? Georgia
> certainly is.

What's the attraction? I take it that's mainly the Atlanta area?

[George Patterson]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> What's the attraction? I take it that's mainly the Atlanta area?

Last I heard, yes -- mainly Atlanta.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Newps]

Matt Barrow wrote:


>
> About 40MPG and 50MPG for the diesel.
>
> Such a car would likely be "useful" out in the west where distances are
> measured in three or even four digits and those are MILES not klicks.

I don't think so. I'm not driving around anywhere in a car the size of
a beer can. When I hit you, or a deer, etc I want to know I'm walking away.

[Newps]

Morgans wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote
>
>
>>Ahem...120,000 is not now and never will be a "metro area".
>
>
> Think again. In Iowa, and other Midwest and plains states, that is a
> downright huge metro area. Such as are the wide open spaces in the US.

Ah, no. My town is 100,000 and no way, no how is this a metro area.

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>The folks from Philly come up to northern PA to "get away from it all",
>>>but then bring their nasty and unfriendly attitudes right along with them.
>>
>>The real problems start when enough of them move in to be able to
>>legislate their attitudes into law.
>
>
> Yeah, that danged "majority rules" thing always seems to ruin a good
> thing...
>
> ;-)

Except that around here the minority is much better armed! :-)


Matt

[Dave Stadt]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > The fastest-growing states by 2030 are shown as Nevada, Arizona,
> > Florida, Texas, Utah, Idaho, North Carolina, Georgia, Washington, and
> > Oregon.
> >
> > Except for New Hampshire (15th: ugh!), the Northeast is essentially
> > irrelevant.
> >
> > The top ten states in 2030 are shown are California, Texas, Florida,
> > New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, North Carolina (!), Georgia, Ohio,
> > and Arizona.
> >
> > Florida displacing New York at 3! North Carolina displacing Ohio at 7!
> >
> > Don't give all the credit to the internet. UPS has a lot to do with
> > it, too :)
>
> I knew their drivers could be promiscuous, but I had no idea....

Somebody had to pick up where the milkman left of.

[Matt Barrow]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>
> >
> > About 40MPG and 50MPG for the diesel.
> >
> > Such a car would likely be "useful" out in the west where distances are
> > measured in three or even four digits and those are MILES not klicks.
>
> I don't think so. I'm not driving around anywhere in a car the size of
> a beer can. When I hit you, or a deer, etc I want to know I'm walking
away.

Which is why I put "useful" in quotes. Their engines are not built, I'd
guess, for the speeds or distances involved out here.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/ (EU vs. USA) by a think tank in Stockholm,
> Sweden Read particularly the summary at the bottom and some of he charts
> comparing the various EU countries against the US.

The EU will always lag behind the US in productivity - mainly because we
have a shorter working week and a lot more vacation time. Less hours to
work. I think in Germany the usual new employee gets something like 6
weeks paid leave (vs 2 in the US), and works a 35 hr week (vs 40 hrs in
the US).

Personally, I'd rather have the shorter working week and the time off!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> > http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/ (EU vs. USA) by a think tank in
Stockholm,
> > Sweden Read particularly the summary at the bottom and some of he charts
> > comparing the various EU countries against the US.
>
> The EU will always lag behind the US in productivity - mainly because we
> have a shorter working week and a lot more vacation time. Less hours to
> work. I think in Germany the usual new employee gets something like 6
> weeks paid leave (vs 2 in the US), and works a 35 hr week (vs 40 hrs in
> the US).
>
> Personally, I'd rather have the shorter working week and the time off!

Nothing wrong with that -- most teenagers feel that way -- as long as you
can keep your ENVY under control. Seems a common thread within the EU and
much of the world outside the Orient. The problems arise when such people
want to augment their income/standard of living by digging into the wallets
of more motiviated people. With kids you kinda expect it; with adults it's
just parasitism.

Then, too, EU's productivty per "man hour" is rather less, all the way to
WAY less. And their standard of living is appropriately concurrent.

BTW, Canada's population is almost identical with the population of
"African-Americans" in the US and their GNP is virtually identical as well.
IOW, Canadians are as well off as one of our "less fortunate" population
sub-sets.

I'll take the 70 hour weeks and still have enough to take several nice
vacations each year.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Matt Whiting wrote:
>> Yeah, then you'll complain that nobody listens to you :~)
>
> I don't mind if the net nannies don't listen! :-)

Netiquette isn't about net nannies. It's like saying 'please', 'thank
you' and not letting doors slam in the faces of people following you.
Trimming quoted material is netiquette - the manners of Usenet (and
other online forums). It is the equivalent of holding open the door for
the person after you in real life; politeness.

Maybe one day it'll no longer be September 1993.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> Then too, it can be foolishly optimistic (I hate the "irrationally
> exuberant" poop), as in the dot.com craze. Yet, how much did the murder of
> the telecom industry have to do with the dot.com collapse and
> subsequent/parallel market implosion?

An enormous amount. The dot.com bubble was built on telecoms. The
implosion in demand for all this extra fibre that was put in (as well as
the wildly overoptimistic expectations for 3G services - telecom
companies ploughed vast amounts of money into 3G licenses which were ALL
to do with the dot.com bubble) - then the bubble went away leaving
telecoms firms with huge amounts of unused bandwidth, empty datacentres,
and no demand for 3G mobile services - but they had to keep paying the
bills they'd run up in investing in all this kit that there was no
demand for.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> About 40MPG and 50MPG for the diesel.
>
> Such a car would likely be "useful" out in the west where distances are
> measured in three or even four digits and those are MILES not klicks.

Actually - they are even more useful in cities. Diesel cars generally do
a lot better than gasoline ones in start/stop traffic. My Dad's old
diesel Peugeot got 40+ MPG on short and long trips - however my gasoline
Audi gets about 35mpg when cruising long distances, and only about half
that in local driving. My next one will be a TDi.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Chris wrote:
> Its not just a question of the price at the pump but the cost of the mile.
> This goes a long way to redress the balance between the cost of petrol and
> the taxes. Besides by using at a slower rate, perhaps fuel will be available
> longer.

The future won't be a hydrogen economy (I reckon) - it'll be a diesel
economy. It's much easier to convert the diesel infrastructure to use
non-crude oil based fuel than it is to move to a hydrogen economy.

We already run our glider club's vehicles on waste cooking oil from one
of the pubs (it does have to be cleaned first - but the 'refining'
process uses a tiny fraction of the energy that the fuel gives - and the
oil would otherwise just be burned or thrown out if we didn't use it to
power our diesel vehicles).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Newps wrote:
>> Such a car would likely be "useful" out in the west where distances are
>> measured in three or even four digits and those are MILES not klicks.
>
> I don't think so. I'm not driving around anywhere in a car the size of
> a beer can. When I hit you, or a deer, etc I want to know I'm walking away.

My Dad's last diesel station wagon managed 40+ MPG, and that was
certainly not a 'beer can' sized car. It also lasted over 350,000 miles.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> Which is why I put "useful" in quotes. Their engines are not built, I'd
> guess, for the speeds or distances involved out here.

Speeds are generally much higher in Europe than the western US.
Additionally, take the range of a Volkswagen Jetta TDi - it'll get
around 700 miles off a tank of diesel. It will also give good power in
the mountains, I have friends in Utah who love their TDi. My Dad's last
diesel, a Peugeot, lasted over 350,000 miles.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article <6adae.2502$RD.1939@trndny02>, George Patterson wrote:
> How prevalent is the use of a cat in Europe these days? Ten years ago, nearly

Completely. You can't even buy leaded car gas in the British Isles.


--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> > Then too, it can be foolishly optimistic (I hate the "irrationally
> > exuberant" poop), as in the dot.com craze. Yet, how much did the murder
of
> > the telecom industry have to do with the dot.com collapse and
> > subsequent/parallel market implosion?
>
> An enormous amount. The dot.com bubble was built on telecoms. The

Yes and no.

The dot.com were built under the assumption, roughly, that everyone was
going to turn off their TV and surf the net and make all their purchases
over the net.

> implosion in demand for all this extra fibre that was put in (as well as
> the wildly overoptimistic expectations for 3G services - telecom
> companies ploughed vast amounts of money into 3G licenses which were ALL
> to do with the dot.com bubble)

They did so under the orders of the FCC. (See first article below).

>- then the bubble went away leaving
> telecoms firms with huge amounts of unused bandwidth, empty datacentres,
> and no demand for 3G mobile services - but they had to keep paying the
> bills they'd run up in investing in all this kit that there was no
> demand for.

Sorta!

"Who killed Telecom": http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa533.pdf

"Telecom Undone- A Cautionary Tale":
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_comm-telecom.htm

"The Perils of Transition":
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/epstein-perils_of_transition.html

[Mike Rapoport]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:cE5ae.8683$NU4.4645@attbi_s22...
>>> We do, indeed, have the most dunderheaded legal system ever devised by
>>> man.
>>
>> Yes, but are you willing to admit that makes YOU a dunderhead? That is,
>> will you agree with the French who express their disbelief that people so
>> dunderheaded ever spawned men like Thomas Jefferson and John Adams?
>
> Sadly, I suppose, I must indeed share the blame for having done NOTHING to
> fix our incredibly broken legal system.
>
> I fear nothing short of revolution will clear the decks.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"


To be fair, our legal system has always been the way it is now. Most of the
profits from the Comstock silver bonanza in the 1860's were consumed in
litigation over who owned the claims.

Mike
MU-2

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> > About 40MPG and 50MPG for the diesel.
> >
> > Such a car would likely be "useful" out in the west where distances are
> > measured in three or even four digits and those are MILES not klicks.
>
> Actually - they are even more useful in cities.

That's my point; the "useful" was in quotes because I was be facetious.

Many Europeans tell us we should drive microcars, but they have no
comprehension of just how big and spread out the US is.
--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Mike Rapoport]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:AbO9e.5855$WI3.1063@attbi_s71...
>> It proves no such thing. American enumeracy at work.
>> The land mass of France, as far as I can determine from a quick sweep, is
>> one 18th that of the US. Is their number of pilots and/or airports an
>> eighteenth of those in this country?
>
> Since when do potential pilots decide to become pilots based on the
> available *land mass*? What kind of logic is THAT?
>

Why do you think that there are more pilots per capita in AK than anywhere
else even though the affordability of flying in AK is much less than in the
lower 48?


Mike
MU-2

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Chris wrote:
> > Its not just a question of the price at the pump but the cost of the
mile.
> > This goes a long way to redress the balance between the cost of petrol
and
> > the taxes. Besides by using at a slower rate, perhaps fuel will be
available
> > longer.
>
> The future won't be a hydrogen economy (I reckon) - it'll be a diesel
> economy.

In the short run maybe, but not over, I'd guess more than 20 years,

>It's much easier to convert the diesel infrastructure to use
> non-crude oil based fuel than it is to move to a hydrogen economy.

Hmmm...a series of tests by the Univeristy of Colorado a few years ago
indicated the a HUGH proportion of pollution comes from diesels.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> > Which is why I put "useful" in quotes. Their engines are not built, I'd
> > guess, for the speeds or distances involved out here.
>
> Speeds are generally much higher in Europe than the western US.

Have you ever driven the western US? Speed limit is generally 75 and that's
ususally scoffed at. What are speed limits in the rest of Europe other than
the autobahn?

> Additionally, take the range of a Volkswagen Jetta TDi - it'll get
> around 700 miles off a tank of diesel. It will also give good power in
> the mountains, I have friends in Utah who love their TDi. My Dad's last
> diesel, a Peugeot, lasted over 350,000 miles.

Americans just don't like diesels. They're better than the junk that came
out 20-25 years ago, but they still sell abysmally other than in the bigger
pickup trucks.

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:cE5ae.8683$NU4.4645@attbi_s22...
> >>> We do, indeed, have the most dunderheaded legal system ever devised by
> >>> man.
> >>
> >> Yes, but are you willing to admit that makes YOU a dunderhead? That
is,
> >> will you agree with the French who express their disbelief that people
so
> >> dunderheaded ever spawned men like Thomas Jefferson and John Adams?
> >
> > Sadly, I suppose, I must indeed share the blame for having done NOTHING
to
> > fix our incredibly broken legal system.
> >
> > I fear nothing short of revolution will clear the decks.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>
> To be fair, our legal system has always been the way it is now. Most of
the
> profits from the Comstock silver bonanza in the 1860's were consumed in
> litigation over who owned the claims.
>

Quite! The "system" is the same, but many more people have learned how to
manipulate and "game" it.

[Arketip]

Matt Barrow wrote:

>
> Have you ever driven the western US? Speed limit is generally 75 and that's
> ususally scoffed at. What are speed limits in the rest of Europe other than
> the autobahn?
>

120-130 Km/h or 75-80 miles

[Matt Barrow]

"Arketip" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> >
> > Have you ever driven the western US? Speed limit is generally 75 and
that's
> > ususally scoffed at. What are speed limits in the rest of Europe other
than
> > the autobahn?
> >
>
> 120-130 Km/h or 75-80 miles

Must have raised them 'cause when I was there (mid 70's and again in the
early 80s) they topped out about 60.

[Dylan Smith]

In article . net>, Mike Rapoport wrote:
> I recall a statistic that one max weight semi truck caused as much damage as
> 2300cars over the same road.

IIRC, the road damage goes up at the fourth power of axle weight.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Dave Stadt wrote:
> I have time in a Nanching (sp). It is an excellent airplane, solid airframe
> and bullet proof engine. I don't see a problem as long as they don't use
> Rotax engines.

I think the new Diamonds (DA-40 etc) use either the diesel or a Lycoming
O-360 (rated at 180hp).

Rotax aren't a bad engine manufacturers - you've gotta remember a lot of
their output is inherently less reliable 2-strokes.

The small 4cyl 4stroke fitted to the original Katana I think got a bad
rap mainly because there weren't many mainstream Lyco-Conti mechanics
who were familiar with it. We don't have a similar problem with the
Rotax 91* series engines here where they are more common (indeed, I've
flown behind the turbocharged 914S, and it's a very nice engine making
sea level power up to around 18000 feet, with automatic turbo and
mixture control).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Montblack]

("Matt Barrow" wrote)
> Many Europeans tell us we should drive microcars, but they have no
> comprehension of just how big and spread out the US is.


Talking land mass or lard ass? Either way, microcars - no.


Montblack

[Mike Rapoport]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
>> http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/ (EU vs. USA) by a think tank in Stockholm,
>> Sweden Read particularly the summary at the bottom and some of he charts
>> comparing the various EU countries against the US.
>
> The EU will always lag behind the US in productivity - mainly because we
> have a shorter working week and a lot more vacation time. Less hours to
> work. I think in Germany the usual new employee gets something like 6
> weeks paid leave (vs 2 in the US), and works a 35 hr week (vs 40 hrs in
> the US).
>
> Personally, I'd rather have the shorter working week and the time off!
>
> --
> Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
> Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
> Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
> "Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

I also think that Euope has a higher percentage of retired people than the
US.

Mike
MU-2

[Chris]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:QMUae.17403$NU4.5019@attbi_s22...
>> Cute expression - 65,000 equals a city. That's a town, not much more than
>> a village.
>>
>> 120,000 a metropolitan area - that's just a big town.
>>
>> What does it take to become a city in the US?
>
> Where do you live, Chris?

not in the US

[Matt Whiting]

Dylan Smith wrote:

> In article >, Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>>>Yeah, then you'll complain that nobody listens to you :~)
>>
>>I don't mind if the net nannies don't listen! :-)
>
>
> Netiquette isn't about net nannies. It's like saying 'please', 'thank
> you' and not letting doors slam in the faces of people following you.
> Trimming quoted material is netiquette - the manners of Usenet (and
> other online forums). It is the equivalent of holding open the door for
> the person after you in real life; politeness.
>
> Maybe one day it'll no longer be September 1993.
>

If the net nanny had made a polite request, I might have responded
differently. I don't recall exactly, but it seems the comment was
something like "You too, Matt." Not exactly a polite request.


Matt

[Morgans]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote

> Rotax aren't a bad engine manufacturers - you've gotta remember a lot of
> their output is inherently less reliable 2-strokes.

So lots of people say. Nevertheless, you'll not catch me flying behind one,
anywhere except the plains, or the water with floats.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Matt Whiting wrote:
> >> Yeah, then you'll complain that nobody listens to you :~)
> >
> > I don't mind if the net nannies don't listen! :-)
>
> Netiquette isn't about net nannies. It's like saying 'please', 'thank
> you' and not letting doors slam in the faces of people following you.
> Trimming quoted material is netiquette -

Right. Someone needs to tell the "rude" to shape up. Then they call you a
net nanny, for stating the obvious.
--
Jim in NC

[Dave Stadt]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Dave Stadt
wrote:
> > I have time in a Nanching (sp). It is an excellent airplane, solid
airframe
> > and bullet proof engine. I don't see a problem as long as they don't
use
> > Rotax engines.
>
> I think the new Diamonds (DA-40 etc) use either the diesel or a Lycoming
> O-360 (rated at 180hp).
>
> Rotax aren't a bad engine manufacturers - you've gotta remember a lot of
> their output is inherently less reliable 2-strokes.
>
> The small 4cyl 4stroke fitted to the original Katana I think got a bad
> rap mainly because there weren't many mainstream Lyco-Conti mechanics
> who were familiar with it. We don't have a similar problem with the
> Rotax 91* series engines here where they are more common (indeed, I've
> flown behind the turbocharged 914S, and it's a very nice engine making
> sea level power up to around 18000 feet, with automatic turbo and
> mixture control).

They dumped the Rotax because customer support is for the most part
non-existant. People aren't going to buy production airplanes that they
cannot get engine parts for. Rotax 4 strokes are somewhat better than the 2
strokes but certainly not what they should be. Homebuilders seem to like
them because they get to work on them a lot.

>
> --
> Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
> Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
> Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
> "Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> They dumped the Rotax because customer support is for the most part
> non-existant. People aren't going to buy production airplanes that they
> cannot get engine parts for. Rotax 4 strokes are somewhat better than the
2
> strokes but certainly not what they should be. Homebuilders seem to like
> them because they get to work on them a lot.

That's like marrying a virgin -- they have no baseline to compare!


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Dylan Smith]

In article <8GUae.17388$NU4.3706@attbi_s22>, Jay Honeck wrote:
> b) Political correctness, dictated by umpteen zillion stupid lawsuits over
> the years, dictates that the TSA must frisk EVERYONE, even though any idiot
> knows that a 93 year old woman in a wheelchair is probably not a security
> risk. It's a sign of the times, not of the TSA.

Actually - if you want your security to work then you *cannot* profile.
It's not a case of political correctness. If you only frisk brown
people, soon the terrorists will find non-brown extremists to perpetrate
attacks. If you only frisk people who bought last minute one way tickets
over the Internet, the terrorists will start gettin their tickets from a
traditional travel agents, pay by cheque and buy a return ticket.

Even so, the airport security the US has now is window-dressing - the
only things that have actually increased security is a locked flight
deck door policy and the fact that the passengers will now take out any
would-be hijacker instead of going quietly (witness what happened with
the attempted shoe bombing).

In Britain, our airport security isn't anywhere near as onerous and
intrusive, yet we've not had any attacks-by-airliner since Sept.11, and
Britain is hated every bit as much by the terrorists. (We can even carry
nail clippers and knitting needles on airliners now, yay us).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
>> companies ploughed vast amounts of money into 3G licenses which were ALL
>> to do with the dot.com bubble)
>
> They did so under the orders of the FCC. (See first article below).

Not here they didn't - they did it to themselves - the mad scramble for
3G licenses sold by auction pushed the value way above what they were
worth as the telecoms companies scrambled blindly to get on the 3G
bandwagon. To date, there is only one major 3G network (called 3) which
is notable for being awful (it doesn't give you real internet access,
merely a walled garden of their own approved content). Not surprisingly,
3 has moved to selling their service on cheap voice calls. Hardly the
promise of 3G. I think another mobile provider has recently started
rolling out 3G, years after they scrambled to get on the bandwagon that
was as insubstantial as the hard vacuum of space.

There is one telecom company that has continuously turned a profit. Manx
Telecom. But they are a monopoly, and if times are tough they just
ratchet up their charges a bit because they don't need to care about
competition (and to make it seem as if they are offering 'value' and are
not a monopoly, price their less popular services dirt cheap so they can
crow in their advertising how calls to Outer Timbuktoo are half the
price with them compared to a UK carrier). Whilst the rest of the telecom
industry has been in the doldrums, they have been making profit rates
well over 30%.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> Many Europeans tell us we should drive microcars, but they have no
> comprehension of just how big and spread out the US is.

Hardly, it's quite possible to make a mid or fullsize diesel car very
economical on fuel. That's why I specifically metioned my Dad's Pug - a
decent sized station wagon that lasted over 350,000 miles (easily up to
the distance), did 40+ MPG all day long, and big enough to throw
building supplies in the back and tow a 1 tonne caravan (travel trailer)
with a racing sidecar outfit. Modern turbo diesels make GREAT all purpose
cars and they can be economical without being 'micro cars'. A turbo
diesel also runs great in the mountains. I've driven a VW TDi over the
Rockies, and its performance was indistinguishable from at sea level.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
>> Speeds are generally much higher in Europe than the western US.
>
> Have you ever driven the western US?

Yes. In a Volkswagen TDi in fact. However, I generally preferred to fly
over the western US in my C140.

> Speed limit is generally 75 and that's
> ususally scoffed at. What are speed limits in the rest of Europe other than
> the autobahn?

Right-o. That's why when I was doing 80 in the Jetta through Colorado
and Utah I was passing practically everything. The prevailing speed of
motorway traffic in Britain is generally 80mph (even though the limit is 70).
In France, I think the autoroutes have a speed limit of 130km/h which is
80mph - faster than your freeways out west - and having driven in
France, I know the French pay little attention to that speed limit (or
many other good principles of road safety!)

>> Additionally, take the range of a Volkswagen Jetta TDi - it'll get
>> around 700 miles off a tank of diesel. It will also give good power in
>> the mountains, I have friends in Utah who love their TDi. My Dad's last
>> diesel, a Peugeot, lasted over 350,000 miles.
>
> Americans just don't like diesels. They're better than the junk that came
> out 20-25 years ago, but they still sell abysmally other than in the bigger
> pickup trucks.

I know that - but that doesn't mean that diesels AREN'T good now and
AREN'T up to the job because they most certianly are. A modern turbo
diesel car is as comfortable as a gasoline driven one, just as fast and
often has way better endurance and often has an engine which will last
much longer on less maintenance. Just because Americans in general
haven't considered a diesel car doesn't some how mean the modern
turbo diesel can't cope with distances or speeds out west - on the
distance they are unarguably BETTER than gasoline cars - the range on a
tank of fuel is often 50 to 100% greater than the equivalent gasoline
car, the engines generally are much stronger and last longer,
and the speed is just as good.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> Must have raised them 'cause when I was there (mid 70's and again in the
> early 80s) they topped out about 60.

In Britain, the speed limit has never been that low. All dual
carriageways ('divided highways') have a default speed limit of 70mph.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
>> Personally, I'd rather have the shorter working week and the time off!

> I'll take the 70 hour weeks and still have enough to take several nice
> vacations each year.

So long as you can get the vacation time; at least when working in the
US for a major computer firm people worked the 70+ hour weeks and were
expected to not take their paltry two weeks of paid leave.

I'm sorry, but I work to live, not live to work. Although I *greatly*
enjoy what I do, after that experience, sorry - no more unpaid overtime
until I'm either running a business or in upper management if I so
choose to eventually follow that career. I can still do office work even
if I was to have an accident and end up in a wheel chair (or just get
old). But I don't want to be 80 years old and look back and say that I
wish I had gone out and done something that required youth and fitness,
but didn't to get some more unpaid overtime in at the office!

It cost me dearly (in lost income) to take months off when I finished
with the project I was working on in the US, but it was worth an order
of magnitude more than the lost income to fly my Cessna 140 across the
US from coast to coast. That trip was priceless.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
>>It's much easier to convert the diesel infrastructure to use
>> non-crude oil based fuel than it is to move to a hydrogen economy.
>
> Hmmm...a series of tests by the Univeristy of Colorado a few years ago
> indicated the a HUGH proportion of pollution comes from diesels.

That's why there are strict emissions standards for diesel engines in
cars here. You can *see* the smoke from trucks in the US, typically the
~17 tonner fixed body four axle construction trucks which seemed to make
up 75% of the truck population in Houston. Every time they accelerated
there was a *thick* pall of black smoke. Those trucks wouldn't be
allowed on the roads here.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Morgans wrote:
>> Rotax aren't a bad engine manufacturers - you've gotta remember a lot of
>> their output is inherently less reliable 2-strokes.
>
> So lots of people say. Nevertheless, you'll not catch me flying behind one,
> anywhere except the plains, or the water with floats.

I guess I live dangerously, I've flown the Europa across the Irish Sea
on several occasions! The 914S is a smooth engine giving good power. I
don't hear about them failing any more frequently than the traditional
Lyco-Conti engines (which I also fly behind quite frequently, our glider
club towplane has an O-320).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article <8GUae.17388$NU4.3706@attbi_s22>, Jay Honeck wrote:
> > b) Political correctness, dictated by umpteen zillion stupid lawsuits
over
> > the years, dictates that the TSA must frisk EVERYONE, even though any
idiot
> > knows that a 93 year old woman in a wheelchair is probably not a
security
> > risk. It's a sign of the times, not of the TSA.
>
> Actually - if you want your security to work then you *cannot* profile.
> It's not a case of political correctness. If you only frisk brown
> people, soon the terrorists will find non-brown extremists to perpetrate
> attacks.

Profiling only uses race as ONE facet of many.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> >> companies ploughed vast amounts of money into 3G licenses which were
ALL
> >> to do with the dot.com bubble)
> >
> > They did so under the orders of the FCC. (See first article below).
>
> Not here they didn't - they did it to themselves - the mad scramble for
> 3G licenses sold by auction pushed the value way above what they were
> worth as the telecoms companies scrambled blindly to get on the 3G
> bandwagon.

Sounds like your 3G licenses are similar to our FCC requirements, just with
a different name.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> > Many Europeans tell us we should drive microcars, but they have no
> > comprehension of just how big and spread out the US is.
>
> Hardly, it's quite possible to make a mid or fullsize diesel car very
> economical on fuel.

And as I said, Americans hate diesels. Also, see the other point about
diesel pollution.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> >> Speeds are generally much higher in Europe than the western US.
> >
> > Have you ever driven the western US?
>
> Yes. In a Volkswagen TDi in fact. However, I generally preferred to fly
> over the western US in my C140.
>
> > Speed limit is generally 75 and that's
> > ususally scoffed at. What are speed limits in the rest of Europe other
than
> > the autobahn?
>
> Right-o. That's why when I was doing 80 in the Jetta through Colorado
> and Utah I was passing practically everything.

Sure you were.

If your were doing 80, you'd have people flashing their highbeams at you to
get out of the way. They raised the speedlimits to 75 about five years ago
and now 85 is normal and 90 is common.



I was going I-40 through northern Arizona, doing 100 and passed two trucks
and GOT passed twice.

> The prevailing speed of
> motorway traffic in Britain is generally 80mph (even though the limit is
70).

When I was in the UK in the 80's it was 90-100k, 56-62MPH.

> In France, I think the autoroutes have a speed limit of 130km/h which is

They must have raied it because I remember it too being 100k's.

> 80mph - faster than your freeways out west - and having driven in
> France, I know the French pay little attention to that speed limit (or
> many other good principles of road safety!)

Yup, they have one of the highest highway fatality rates in Europe.

>
> >> Additionally, take the range of a Volkswagen Jetta TDi - it'll get
> >> around 700 miles off a tank of diesel. It will also give good power in
> >> the mountains, I have friends in Utah who love their TDi. My Dad's last
> >> diesel, a Peugeot, lasted over 350,000 miles.
> >
> > Americans just don't like diesels. They're better than the junk that
came
> > out 20-25 years ago, but they still sell abysmally other than in the
bigger
> > pickup trucks.
>
> I know that - but that doesn't mean that diesels AREN'T good now and
> AREN'T up to the job because they most certianly are. A modern turbo
> diesel car is as comfortable as a gasoline driven one, just as fast and
> often has way better endurance and often has an engine which will last
> much longer on less maintenance. Just because Americans in general
> haven't considered a diesel car doesn't some how mean the modern
> turbo diesel can't cope with distances or speeds out west - on the
> distance they are unarguably BETTER than gasoline cars - the range on a
> tank of fuel is often 50 to 100% greater than the equivalent gasoline
> car, the engines generally are much stronger and last longer,

You sound like the last car salesman I ran into. :~)

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> >> Personally, I'd rather have the shorter working week and the time off!
>
> > I'll take the 70 hour weeks and still have enough to take several nice
> > vacations each year.
>
> So long as you can get the vacation time;

I work for myself (I own the company).

> at least when working in the
> US for a major computer firm people worked the 70+ hour weeks and were
> expected to not take their paltry two weeks of paid leave.

To every instance there is a reciprocal.

And as I said, suit yourself. OTOH, many nations have a lagging (and
diminishing) standard of living and are gritting their teeth in ENVY.

> I'm sorry, but I work to live, not live to work.

Me too. I work 70 hour weeks for 10 months of the year and 40 hour weeks
when we do a month at our summer home.

Unfortunately, I've run into SOOOO many people (professionally and
personally) that don't have much (or any) motiviation, but they expect
people that are willing to work to support them (welfare). Some entire
nations operate that way.


>Although I *greatly*
> enjoy what I do, after that experience, sorry - no more unpaid overtime
> until I'm either running a business or in upper management if I so
> choose to eventually follow that career. I can still do office work even
> if I was to have an accident and end up in a wheel chair (or just get
> old). But I don't want to be 80 years old and look back and say that I
> wish I had gone out and done something that required youth and fitness,
> but didn't to get some more unpaid overtime in at the office!

I felt that way too, until I had kids and then got laid off at 43 years old
in a dead job market. Now, it's worth it for the independance, the
prosperity (lot's more) and I even take more, longer, and better vacations
than when I was working in the corporate world.

>
> It cost me dearly (in lost income) to take months off when I finished

The purpose of working harder/longer is to have the time/resources to play
longer/better.

> with the project I was working on in the US, but it was worth an order
> of magnitude more than the lost income to fly my Cessna 140 across the
> US from coast to coast. That trip was priceless.

As was my trip two years ago to Virginia to see my son commissioned in the
Navy. We took our Bonanza and made a couple stops along with way both going
out and coming back. Nine days and $8K total.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> >>It's much easier to convert the diesel infrastructure to use
> >> non-crude oil based fuel than it is to move to a hydrogen economy.
> >
> > Hmmm...a series of tests by the Univeristy of Colorado a few years ago
> > indicated the a HUGH proportion of pollution comes from diesels.
>
> That's why there are strict emissions standards for diesel engines in
> cars here. You can *see* the smoke from trucks in the US, typically the
> ~17 tonner fixed body four axle construction trucks which seemed to make
> up 75% of the truck population in Houston.

Quite! In many states they emmission test the newer vehicles but exempt
older (1981 +/- or earlier) and diesels.

> Every time they accelerated
> there was a *thick* pall of black smoke. Those trucks wouldn't be
> allowed on the roads here.

Faulty/untuned injectors. My neighbors Dodge 3500 (?) dually makes not even
a wisp of smoke.

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
> >> http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/ (EU vs. USA) by a think tank in
Stockholm,
> >> Sweden Read particularly the summary at the bottom and some of he
charts
> >> comparing the various EU countries against the US.
> >
> > The EU will always lag behind the US in productivity - mainly because we
> > have a shorter working week and a lot more vacation time. Less hours to
> > work. I think in Germany the usual new employee gets something like 6
> > weeks paid leave (vs 2 in the US), and works a 35 hr week (vs 40 hrs in
> > the US).
> >
> > Personally, I'd rather have the shorter working week and the time off!
> >
> > --
> > Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
> > Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
> > Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
> > "Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"
>
> I also think that Euope has a higher percentage of retired people than the
> US.

They do because their retirement is much earlier (AIUI) as they want to
clear the work rolls for younger people.

[Newps]

Dylan Smith wrote:
> In article >, Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>>Which is why I put "useful" in quotes. Their engines are not built, I'd
>>guess, for the speeds or distances involved out here.
>
>
> Speeds are generally much higher in Europe than the western US.
> Additionally, take the range of a Volkswagen Jetta TDi - it'll get
> around 700 miles off a tank of diesel. It will also give good power in
> the mountains, I have friends in Utah who love their TDi. My Dad's last
> diesel, a Peugeot, lasted over 350,000 miles.

A Volkswagen and a Puegot? Goddamn things come with mechanics? Ain't
no place to get them fixed around here.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Yes I would support an IFR system like in the UK. You fly without radar
> separation below certain altitudes and you don't have to talk to ATC.
AFAIK
> there has never been a collision.

Just a guide.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/224/SRG_GA_LARS_in_SEE.pdf

There's an interesting map of air-proxes and mid-air collisions. It
surprised me that there were five mid-air collisions from 1991 to 2001 in
the south east of England. Three of them involve gliders, with one being
plane with glider. The other two happened while flying formation/formation
aeros though they were both relatively minor (no one was hurt).

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >Since they have 6300 and 481, respectively, I'd say their avgas prices
> >have done a remarkably good job of killing aviation in France.
>
> There are other reasons, of course, one being that (in effect, for
> most purposes) there is no VFR flight.

Really? I fly everywhere VFR.

> Most European nations are, by American standards, very congested. It's
> probably not a coincidence that the only European posting here
> regularly flies on the Isle of Man.

Cough...ok, I've been missing quite a lot recently...

Paul

[Jens Krueger]

Dylan Smith > wrote:

> > Americans just don't like diesels. They're better than the junk that came
> > out 20-25 years ago, but they still sell abysmally other than in the bigger
> > pickup trucks.
>
> I know that - but that doesn't mean that diesels AREN'T good now and
> AREN'T up to the job because they most certianly are. A modern turbo
> diesel car is as comfortable as a gasoline driven one, just as fast and
> often has way better endurance and often has an engine which will last
> much longer on less maintenance.

If BMW would actually introduce the 745d in the US, well that would be a
car for "out-west". Silent, fast, pulls like a freight train (700nm
torque!) and about 35 mpg highway... I wonder why they haven't done it
yet...

Cheers,
jens
--
I don't accept any emails right now. Usenet replys only.

[Morgans]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote

Every time they accelerated
> there was a *thick* pall of black smoke. Those trucks wouldn't be
> allowed on the roads here.

Think that is bad. go to Quito, Ecuador. Every truck was like a heavy chain
smoker; way overdue for an overhaul.

Denver, Colorado has some of the strictest particulate laws anywhere. If
you can see smoke, it is not going to pass.
--
Jim in NC

[Paul Sengupta]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> And now you can throw insurance into the mix along with avgas prices:
>
> "$5 MILLION COVERAGE TO FLY A 182 IN EUROPE?
> Thinking of flying your N-registered aircraft in Europe? Better make
> sure you can afford it. The European Union is imposing new liability
> insurance requirements for general aviation aircraft starting April 30.
> If you were flying a Cessna 182 with four people on board, you'd need
> almost $5 million in insurance coverage--assuming you could find the
> coverage and afford it."

Insurance isn't so much of a problem here. If you pay for it,
you get it. My liability has gone up from £1m (non compulsory)
to £3m (compulsory about £2.5m) and I have to pay about an
extra £100 a year. It's not ideal though. The B17s and such like
flying here may have massive increases.

http://www.flyer.co.uk/news/newsfeed.php?artnum=190

We used to have sensible regulations here in the UK before
the European JAR regulations came in. The JARs brought in
things like having to do 12 hours in 2 years but in the second of
the two years, with none to do in the first. The old CAA rule was
5 hours every 13 months. Now we have to do a BFR, we have
the 3 take-offs and landings in 90 days to take passengers and
other things taken from the FARs.

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> At
> that point it all clicked. The folks from Philly come up to northern PA
> to "get away from it all", but then bring their nasty and unfriendly
> attitudes right along with them.

Like people moving to the vicinity of airports then complaining
about the noise.

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In Britain, the speed limit has never been that low. All dual
> carriageways ('divided highways') have a default speed limit of 70mph.

Britain didn't have a speed limit until 1967 when the 70mph
national limit was brought in. The "unofficial" speed limit on British
motorways is 85mph. 90-100mph is common. Turbo-diesels are
ideal for these sort of motorway speeds. Good torque for overtaking
and pretty frugal in the process.

Anyone who comes here from the US or Canada complains that
we drive too fast.

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> To date, there is only one major 3G network (called 3) which
> is notable for being awful (it doesn't give you real internet access,
> merely a walled garden of their own approved content). Not surprisingly,
> 3 has moved to selling their service on cheap voice calls. Hardly the
> promise of 3G. I think another mobile provider has recently started
> rolling out 3G, years after they scrambled to get on the bandwagon that
> was as insubstantial as the hard vacuum of space.

Go with Vodafone. We've had them up and running for a couple of
years now and public for a year. You can get a data card or phone so you
can get 384kbps mobile for proper internet access. Don't think they've got
any RBSs on the IOM yet though! Sorry, I'll have to look at the expansion
plans.

As far as I know, Orange, O2 and T-Mobile have all got 3G networks
up and running - possible one of them hasn't gone public yet IIRC.

The 3G license thing was just rediculous.

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:dcG9e.13130$Fm5.9947@trndny09...
> Dave Stadt wrote:
> >
> > If you believe GA is in good shape in France and other parts of the EU
go to
> > the AOPA WEB site and read about the new liability insurance
requirements
> > the EU has placed on GA aircraft. $119 million in liability insurance
> > required for a 182. Doesn't sound healthy to me.
>
> Read through the actual PDF document. For a private operator, they require
a
> minimum of 100,000 SDRs/passenger and 1,000 SDRs for luggage. For coverage
of
> non-passengers, you need 3 million SDRs for a 182. The current exchange
rate is
> 1.51746 dollars to one SDR. While the rate is still crazy, no way can I
make it
> add up to $119 million. Seems to me that's a policy for $4,552,380 with
> sublimits of $151,746 per seat, plus a luggage allowance.
>
> In any case, what's important is the amount of the premium, not the
coverage
> amount. Liability cases are not settled by juries in Europe, nor are the
awards
> very high (by American standards). I'd bet the premiums are far lower as
well.
>
> Stefan? Wolfgang? Martin? Dylan? What's insurance like over there?

My Bulldog, 200hp 2 seats, nosewheel, aerobatic and formation included,
£32,000 hull, £3m liability, £7.5m liability for government (RAF and
RNAS) aerodromes this year is £1366. 15% discount next year if I
don't make a claim.

Paul