Shock! Horror! Door pops open! [Archive]

Marco Rispoli

April 13th 05, 06:33 PM

I am in agreement with George here. What's the big piece of news?

It's an upressurized plane. Granted it's a bad surprise when your maps and
loose pieces of paper get sucked out of the now open door ... but how can
anyone get hurt if they are strapped to their seats?

My door popped open twice in the year and something i have been owning my
piper cherokee and it was a "Oh great ... now I gotta land" moment ...
hardly worthy of notice. The plane was flying fine and the door was
oscillating a bit at 110 knots but nothing happened to the plane other than
the noise and increased wind. It was just annoying ..

If your door pops open you land, you close it, you take off again ...

I really don't get it. What's the biggie?

I don't want to seem to be insensitive to it or something but honestly this
sounds to me like another very minor news piece over-dramatazied by
attentioned-starved media.

Just my 2c

--
Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL
My on-line aviation community -> http://www.thepilotlounge.com

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:3oc7e.19394$1p4.12250@trndny06...
> Mike Granby wrote:
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4439341.stm
>
> And the headline from the Daily Mail link on that site is "New Zealand PM
cheats
> death in air drama - 4 hrs ago" -- all because the door on an Aztec popped
open
> in flight? Give me a break!
>
> George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

George Patterson

April 13th 05, 06:35 PM

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
> Here's my bet... The door came unlatched. the 2 cops sitting in the back
> seat freaked and pushed someone into the yokes while they were trying to
> close the door.

No takers here. Bet you're right.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

Mike Granby

April 13th 05, 06:37 PM

> I don't want to seem to be insensitive to it or something but
> honestly this sounds to me like another very minor news
> piece over-dramatazied by attentioned-starved media.

Well, quite. That was the point I was making........

Marco Rispoli

April 13th 05, 06:51 PM

haha ... I suspected as much.

good point then!

--
Marco Rispoli - NJ, USA / PP-ASEL
My on-line aviation community -> http://www.thepilotlounge.com

"Mike Granby" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> > I don't want to seem to be insensitive to it or something but
> > honestly this sounds to me like another very minor news
> > piece over-dramatazied by attentioned-starved media.
>
> Well, quite. That was the point I was making........
>

Corky Scott

April 13th 05, 07:02 PM

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:52:22 -0700, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>If the door of an Aztec pops open, it will only open about 4-6 inches and
>will kind of oscillate back and forth between those extremes. Causes some
>tail feather buffeting. Anyone trying to pull the door shut is fighting air
>pressure and wasting his or her time.
>
>Bob Gardner

That's what I wondered. They probably didn't realise they couldn't
close the door in flight, and kept trying. They'd likely be unhappy
to be told that they could have just sat there doing nothing and the
flight wouldn't have changed a bit.

Corky Scott

Denny

April 13th 05, 07:03 PM

Bob Gardner Apr 13, 8:52 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: "Bob Gardner" > - Find messages by this author

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:52:22 -0700
Local: Wed,Apr 13 2005 8:52 am
Subject: Re: Shock! Horror! Door pops open!
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If the door of an Aztec pops open, it will only open about 4-6 inches
and
will kind of oscillate back and forth between those extremes
************************************************** ****************************8

Same on the Apache when the CFI in the right seat apparently couldn't
close a door reliably... Non event - and I was in no hurry to land as
he was the one getting his butt frozen (that's called 'behavior
modification')...
Since then however, I let no one close the cabin door but me...
Actually ticked off one high time, ace pilot (in his own mind) when he
slammed and locked the door against my clear instruction that I would
close the door, I reached over and opened the door then re-closed it
myself... He never asked to fly again... ah well....

Denny

Wallace Berry

April 13th 05, 08:00 PM

In article <3oc7e.19394$1p4.12250@trndny06>,
George Patterson > wrote:

> Mike Granby wrote:
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4439341.stm
>
> And the headline from the Daily Mail link on that site is "New Zealand PM
> cheats
> death in air drama - 4 hrs ago" -- all because the door on an Aztec popped
> open
> in flight? Give me a break!
>
> George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

There are GA aircraft whose doors will latch closed? Not sure I've ever
seen one...

--
Take out the airplane for reply

Paul kgyy

April 13th 05, 08:30 PM

Granted it's not normally a big deal to have a Piper door unlatch, my
IFR instructor failed to close it properly once. It was about 15
degrees F and we were IMC when it popped open. Strong, very cold gale
through the cockpit, instruments began to fog over, and by the time we
found a place to land we were both shaking with the cold. Since then
I've always briefed passengers not to freak out if it happens.

Peter Duniho

April 13th 05, 09:00 PM

"Wallace Berry" > wrote in message
...
> There are GA aircraft whose doors will latch closed? Not sure I've ever
> seen one...

Lake amphibs (LA-180, EP, Buccaneer, Renegade), for example. The doors are
hinged on a forward-facing surface, and the pressure on the door from the
slipstream is far greater in the closing direction than any minimal opening
force caused by pressure differential.

Pretty much anything with a sliding canopy (Grumman Tiger/Cheetah, Ercoupe,
Thorpe T-18, etc), of course. Without a hinge, there's no problem at all.

Anything with a canopy that opens forward, like the Diamond DA40 or Lancair
360, probably would not have any trouble either.

In fact, there's such a wide variety of cabin door designs, that I think
it's entirely possible that there are more designs that CAN be closed in
flight than that can't. Of course, the most popular designs all have that
problem, and so might outnumber the others in terms of actual numbers of
aircraft. But it's certainly not hard to find an airplane whose doors can
be closed and latched in flight.

Heck, for that matter...even those designs that "can't" be closed actually
can, given the right airspeed and airplane attitude. I probably wouldn't
bother trying, unless it was REALLY cold and I was a long way from landing.
But there's often a way. :)

Pete

Peter Duniho

April 13th 05, 09:03 PM

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wr.giacona@coxDOTnet> wrote in message
news:kea7e.37$nh1.2@okepread03...
> Here's my bet... The door came unlatched. the 2 cops sitting in the back
> seat freaked and pushed someone into the yokes while they were trying to
> close the door.

Might not have even required a push on the yoke. The dive might not have
been nearly as dramatic as the terrified passenger(s) describe (interesting
that the reports don't include any quotes from the pilot(s)), and a couple
of people rushing forward would be enough to adjust the trim to a descent.

I've had trim trouble just from a rear seat passenger reclining his seat.
An actual movement of two people within the cabin would cause a significant
change in pitch, in a small airplane like the one in this incident.

Whatever the cause, it's pretty clear that the door popping open was
certainly not a direct cause of the descent. Only panic could have caused
that. On whose part, we may never know.

Pete

Ben Hallert

April 13th 05, 09:16 PM

During my pilot training, one day were were in the pattern when my
instructor grabbed the yoke, pulled us into a quasi-unusual attitude,
and popped the door open (Piper Cherokee) and held it as far open as he
could against the wind. "You've just had a mid-air!" he yelled over
the noise. I corrected the attitude of the plane and began a short
approach to the runway. He was explaining to me that 'see, the plane
doesn't fall out of the sky. It's loud, but you can still fly
safely-oh CRAP!' I look over, and he's looking back out the door over
his shoulder. I'm still flying the plane, but I ask calmly what
happened. He starts laughing, and it turns out that the wind in cabin
grabbed the new instrument training hood that he had purchased the day
earlier (to replace a cracked on) and sucked it out the door.

I landed without incident (except for the whole shaking cabin and
missing hood) but it was a complete non-event.

When I try to understand why people panic about stuff like this, I
remember that they see movies like 'The Aviator' that has airplanes
turning into flaming meteors that drop out of the sky when they run out
of fuel, so assuming that an open door is going to do the same thing
isn't that much of a stretch.

It's also possible that this was the first time some of the passengers
on that plane had flown in something smaller then a 737, and they were
ALREADY nervous.

george

April 13th 05, 09:46 PM

wrote:
> "Peter R." > wrote:
>
> > Mike wrote:
> >
> > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asi=ADa-pacific/4439341.stm
>
> Praise for the two policemen who tried to hold the door shut, but not
a
> mention of the pilot getting them all back on the ground safely.
Nice.

Yeah. The brave cops held the door shut with the connivance of the
160kt slipstream..
And the pilot was more concerned with flying the aeroplane. That's waht
pilots do !

K. Ari Krupnikov

April 13th 05, 10:26 PM

writes:

> "Peter R." > wrote:
>
> > Mike wrote:
> >
> > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asi*a-pacific/4439341.stm
>
> Praise for the two policemen who tried to hold the door shut, but not a
> mention of the pilot getting them all back on the ground safely. Nice.

Of course not. He almost got the PM killed! What surprised me most
about this story was that the PM travels by such modest plane.

Ari.

--
Elections only count as free and trials as fair if you can lose money
betting on the outcome.

Teranews

April 13th 05, 11:49 PM

Ok, It coulda been serious...

Once upon a time near Portland Oregon, a Baron in IMC was approaching
the airport from the south with an intrepid aviator flying from the left,
and doing the Jeppsen Revisions on the right seat. Vectors followed, and
when combined with a descent and some turbulence, Pop, the door sprang open
about an inch.

The picture I saw was from the ground with this Baron coming out of the
overcast at high speed in a left bank to base, with a white dotted line
behind him leading up into the overcast. Those pages were about a foot apart
all the way to the runway.
Al

> wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Bob Gardner"
> > wrote:
>>If the door of an Aztec pops open, it will only open about 4-6 inches and
>>will kind of oscillate back and forth between those extremes. Causes some
>>tail feather buffeting. Anyone trying to pull the door shut is fighting
>>air
>>pressure and wasting his or her time.
>>
>>Bob Gardner
>>
> Just curious, could you do a slip to get the door closed? On my plane, I
> take
> the doors off and fly. Who needs doors?
> tom

george

April 14th 05, 12:17 AM

K=2E Ari Krupnikov wrote:
> writes:
>
> > "Peter R." > wrote:
> >
> > > Mike wrote:
> > >
> > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asi=ADa-pacific/4439341.stm
> >
> > Praise for the two policemen who tried to hold the door shut, but
not a
> > mention of the pilot getting them all back on the ground safely.
Nice.
>
> Of course not. He almost got the PM killed! What surprised me most
> about this story was that the PM travels by such modest plane.
>

What a load of bull****.
At no time was any-one in danger !
The door will not open in flight unless you are -really- determined..
all the passengers will -not- be ejected into space and the particular
aircraft is quite a pleasant one to fly..
having been in some form of turbulence they would all be well strapped
in

nobody

April 14th 05, 12:39 AM

> I landed without incident (except for the whole shaking cabin and
> missing hood) but it was a complete non-event.

Just had to jump in here and agree. I had the door on my Warrior pop open
on my turn to crosswind after take-off. In the hot Texas summer, I leave
the door open as long as possible to try to keep the cabin temp a little
cooler than a gas oven. I guess I missed the overhead latch after run-up.
I went ahead an made my turn to downwind and reached over and tried to close
the door with my free hand. You already know that didn't work. I reduced
power and slowed to about 70 Kias and kicked in a lot of right rudder.
Closed it with one hand and departed the pattern. Definitely a
non-life-threatening event.

Its a lot more exciting to say the PM cheated death than the truth.

Eddie

Bob Fry

April 14th 05, 02:08 AM

Yawn. The PM should get some J-3 time...ahh, there's nothing like a
warm summer evening, fresh Delta breeze coming from the south, you
slip the Cub in for landing, window latched up and door folded down,
and right at stall the door gently lifts up to let you know you've
arrived...doesn't get much better than that. Unless it's flying an
Aircoupe around with the canopy open...

john smith

April 14th 05, 03:10 AM

Note to Piper owners:
When closing the doors, observe that the top latch does not ride up over
the top of the vertical latching"pin".
If you grasp the door mounted "hooked" latch, check to see if it is
loose and moves vertically or is firmly attached.
If it is loose, it can ride up over the top of the latching pin and give
a false indication of the tap latch being secure.
The door can then "pop open" in flight as the lower latch may not be
strong enough to withstand the air pressure differential between the
cabin and the slipstream.
The solution to assuring the latch is secure is to hook a finger over
the top of the latch and gently pull it downward and guide it so that
the latch hook centers around the latch pin as the door is pulled closed
and engage the top latch lever before depressing the lower latch lever.

Mortimer Schnerd, RN

April 14th 05, 04:14 AM

Mike Granby wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4439341.stm

Oh, good God. What was the big deal? If you can't push a car door open at 60
mph, you sure as hell can't push open an aircraft door at 160 knots.

I've had lots of door pop open over the years. Sometimes I got wet. It was
noisy. Nobody ever fell out. I never set down early to latch the door either.

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

K. Ari Krupnikov

April 14th 05, 05:46 AM

"george" > writes:

> K. Ari Krupnikov wrote:
> > writes:
> > > Praise for the two policemen who tried to hold the door shut, but not a
> > > mention of the pilot getting them all back on the ground safely.
> >
> > Of course not. He almost got the PM killed!
>
> What a load of bull****.

[long explanation why snipped]

No, no! Let's argue about that!

I say, against everything that's been said in this thread, against
what I learned in my private training, my own experience of a door
opening after takeoff about 3 years ago, and against common sense,
that I haven't posted on rec.aviation for too long to remember that
sometimes people do take what you say seriously :=)

Ari.

--
Elections only count as free and trials as fair if you can lose money
betting on the outcome.

Thomas Borchert

April 14th 05, 02:12 PM

Marco,

> If your door pops open you land, you close it, you take off again ...
>

You're right - except for some planes. I wouldn't want the gull wing
doors on our Tobago to come open in flight. Some reports have it swing
up and stay in a position about 5 to 10 inches open, some have it dent
badly and some have it rip off, with a likelyhood of hitting the
stabilizer. That would ruin the day.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Ron Tock

April 14th 05, 03:38 PM

Mike Granby wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4439341.stm
>

Did the aircraft dive because of the turbulance or because the pilot
freaked out at the open door. What's the big deal. I was flying a
piper warrior once when the door popped open.
Whoop de do. The slipstream held it closed until I was able to reach
over and re-close it.
It had no effect whatsoever on the handling characteristics of the plane.

Ron Tock

April 14th 05, 03:46 PM

Corky Scott wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:52:22 -0700, "Bob Gardner" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>If the door of an Aztec pops open, it will only open about 4-6 inches and
>>will kind of oscillate back and forth between those extremes. Causes some
>>tail feather buffeting. Anyone trying to pull the door shut is fighting air
>>pressure and wasting his or her time.
>>
>>Bob Gardner
>
>
>
> That's what I wondered. They probably didn't realise they couldn't
> close the door in flight, and kept trying. They'd likely be unhappy
> to be told that they could have just sat there doing nothing and the
> flight wouldn't have changed a bit.
>
You can close the door in flight. I did it on a Warrior once and that
was from the pilot seat reaching over.
Unless a Warrior is that different from an Aztec, which I haven't flown.

Robert M. Gary

April 14th 05, 04:50 PM

When I was a student pilot, during the long hot summer days of
Sacramento, we always kept the doors open in the Cessna 140. Every once
in a while I'd give the door a shove with my elbow and refresh the hot
cabin air. On my private checkride, the examiner spent the entire ride
trying to get the door to close, saying he was going to fall out. After
the ride he chewed the FBO out up and down for having a door that
wouldn't stay closed. I never thought to try to close the door, it was
hot!
A year later, with a fresh IFR ticket in my pocket I flew the family
down to Monterey. At about 11pm over the Salinas mountains IFR the door
on the Bonanza popped open. Charts flew everywhere, including out the
window. I tried slipping, etc but couldn't get it closed. Since it was
dark I didn't want to try some small airport I'd never been to before
so I diverted to Modesto (a larger airport). I just remember thinking
to myself that if there was ever a time I was going to forget the gear,
this was it. On landing, it is important to grab and hold the door
though. About 1/2 through the roll out the door sprung full open and
then back again. It almost came off the hinges. I think the roundedness
of the Bonanza door made it different than the flat Cessna door. The
Bonanza door trailed about 4". You could pull really hard to hold it to
only 3" but the last bit wasn't going to happen.
My wife and kids probably have a good 600 hours sitting in the plane
now and are all very execellent door closers. :) The Bonanza just had a
strange door closing mechanism. You turned the handle past two clicks
to grab both latches, something that was missed that night. I now drive
a Mooney and the door is much more obvious. The door handle doesn't
like up with the arm rest unless it is fully closed.

-Robert, CFI

Dudley Henriques

April 14th 05, 08:57 PM

Hi Bob;

Don't know about the Aztec as I've never had one come open on me, but I've
had the door open on me in a 140 Cherokee and closed it in flight with no
"panic" issues. Also once in a Cessna 336.
There is a pressure problem, but if you just grab the door without pushing
it and yank it closed with a single direction pull it should close ok.
Opening the canopy vents did help if I remember.
Dudley

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> If the door of an Aztec pops open, it will only open about 4-6 inches and
> will kind of oscillate back and forth between those extremes. Causes some
> tail feather buffeting. Anyone trying to pull the door shut is fighting
> air pressure and wasting his or her time.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Mike Granby" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4439341.stm
>>
>
>

[email protected]

April 14th 05, 09:17 PM

I had a door pop open 3 times during my private pilot training. First
time, early on in the training, MY door opened on takeoff in a C-150.
The CFI took the controls and I held the door ajar. We told the tower we
needed to come back because of an open door and they cleared us ... we
did a little shorter pattern than normal, and the CFI said she noticed
more drag, but no big deal. Second time in a C-152, CFI's door popped
open just after beginning the takeoff roll. He told me to abort, I
pulled the power and started to brake as he got the door shut and told
me to go ahead (we have long runways). Third time in C-152 again, CFI's
door opened at about 500 feet. I didn't even see or hear it, but CFI was
holding onto his door with both hands. I asked, "Am I scaring you that
badly?" He laughed and said "No, door's open!" I asked if I needed to
turn back, but he just shut the door and we kept going. Now, in the
passenger briefing part of the checklist, I always ask passengers to
double-check and assure that their seats and doors are secure.

AliR

April 14th 05, 09:24 PM

That is the finest thing I have read in a while.

I want to know who gave her the bruises? Last time that happened to me,
when a friend closed the door and I didn't check it, no one got bruised.

I wonder how many sky divers get bruised when they go up in a plane without
a door.

AliR.

"Mike Granby" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4439341.stm
>

george

April 14th 05, 09:52 PM

AliR wrote:
> That is the finest thing I have read in a while.
>
> I want to know who gave her the bruises? Last time that happened to
me,
> when a friend closed the door and I didn't check it, no one got
bruised.
>
> I wonder how many sky divers get bruised when they go up in a plane
without
> a door.
>
Yeah :-)
As I understand it she got bounced (Not the skydiving term) around and
hit the side of the window.
I can state now that at no time in aeroplanes without doors did I
bruise an arm !

Don Hammer

April 14th 05, 10:45 PM

I modified a 182 and 206 for jumping some years ago. After removing
the hinges I cut off a triangle at the bottom forward corner and
riveted it to the frame. That was so I could hinge it at the top and
the door would clear the strut. Fabricated a new latch that went fore
and aft and a new door handle in the middle that you could twist.

To work it, the pilot unlatches it and pushes out hard. The
slipstream makes it climb until it contacts a rubber bumper under the
wing. Dif pressure keeps it firmly there while the crazies leave.
The pilot pushes left rudder and the door slams shut. He reaches over
and twists the handle then heads back for another load of crazies.

My point is, Im sure with the Piper-style door, you can close the
vents, slip the aircraft and latch the door a bunch faster than
heading back. Am I wrong?

Kyler Laird

April 15th 05, 01:08 AM

"Bob Gardner" > writes:

>If the door of an Aztec pops open, it will only open about 4-6 inches and
>will kind of oscillate back and forth between those extremes. Causes some
>tail feather buffeting.

Indeed it does! It's been substantial the two times it's happened to me.
It was not at all enjoyable.

>Anyone trying to pull the door shut is fighting air
>pressure and wasting his or her time.

I pulled a Warrior door closed (on one of my early training solo flights -
oops!) but I suspect that closing the Aztec door is a lost cause also.

--kyler

Kyler Laird

April 15th 05, 01:08 AM

Corky Scott > writes:

>That's what I wondered. They probably didn't realise they couldn't
>close the door in flight, and kept trying. They'd likely be unhappy
>to be told that they could have just sat there doing nothing and the
>flight wouldn't have changed a bit.

My experience is that holding it (close to) closed makes the ride
*much* nicer. I've not had the door pop open when I've been flying
alone. It'd be interesting.

Anyone want to talk about the piece of piano wire that actuates the
Aztec's door pins?

--kyler

Mortimer Schnerd, RN

April 15th 05, 01:49 AM

Kyler Laird wrote:
> My experience is that holding it (close to) closed makes the ride
> *much* nicer. I've not had the door pop open when I've been flying
> alone. It'd be interesting.

It's pretty much a non-event. It's annoying, noisy, and sometimes wet. I flew
an Arrow in hard IFR from Key West to Rock Hill, SC once with the damned door
popped open. No biggie except in the rain showers. Then a real PITA. I hate
getting rained on.... particularly at 130 knots.

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Roger

April 15th 05, 03:05 AM

On 14 Apr 2005 08:50:10 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

>When I was a student pilot, during the long hot summer days of
>Sacramento, we always kept the doors open in the Cessna 140. Every once
>in a while I'd give the door a shove with my elbow and refresh the hot
>cabin air. On my private checkride, the examiner spent the entire ride
>trying to get the door to close, saying he was going to fall out. After
>the ride he chewed the FBO out up and down for having a door that
>wouldn't stay closed. I never thought to try to close the door, it was
>hot!
>A year later, with a fresh IFR ticket in my pocket I flew the family
>down to Monterey. At about 11pm over the Salinas mountains IFR the door
>on the Bonanza popped open. Charts flew everywhere, including out the
>window. I tried slipping, etc but couldn't get it closed. Since it was
>dark I didn't want to try some small airport I'd never been to before
>so I diverted to Modesto (a larger airport). I just remember thinking
>to myself that if there was ever a time I was going to forget the gear,
>this was it. On landing, it is important to grab and hold the door
>though. About 1/2 through the roll out the door sprung full open and
>then back again. It almost came off the hinges. I think the roundedness
>of the Bonanza door made it different than the flat Cessna door. The
>Bonanza door trailed about 4". You could pull really hard to hold it to
>only 3" but the last bit wasn't going to happen.

The Bonanza door, like the Cherokees and newer models serves are part
of the structure.

The Bo door is the most spectacular when it pops open as it sounds
like a shotgun being fired.

I'm surprised the Bo door opened on the roll out unless you had all
the vents open. Normally it won't open unless there is a tail wind.

In flight there is no sense pulling on it as it should stay about 2 or
3 inches out. You are pushing against a lot of air pressure to open
it farther and it's unlikely it would even match the opening as the
structure "springs" out of shape slightly with the door open. So the
darn door doesn't even fit the opening.

OTOH it's a good way to get the carpets clean.

>My wife and kids probably have a good 600 hours sitting in the plane
>now and are all very execellent door closers. :) The Bonanza just had a
>strange door closing mechanism. You turned the handle past two clicks

All the ones I've seen only have one click, but you close the latch to
where you think the thing is latched, then push it another inch and
you hear a click. If you don't get that click the chances are about
10:1 the door will pop open just after rotation.

The door popping open is no big deal, unless you don't have any more
charts<:-)), but enough Bo pilots were dumb enough to kill themselves
trying to close the door, that was added to the AirSafety Foundation's
training. That and when doing stalls they'd block the yoke so the
pilot couldn't use the ailerons.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>to grab both latches, something that was missed that night. I now drive
>a Mooney and the door is much more obvious. The door handle doesn't
>like up with the arm rest unless it is fully closed.
>
>-Robert, CFI

George Patterson

April 15th 05, 03:40 AM

Wallace Berry wrote:
> In article <3oc7e.19394$1p4.12250@trndny06>,
> George Patterson > wrote:
>
>
>>Mike Granby wrote:
>>
>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4439341.stm
>>
>>And the headline from the Daily Mail link on that site is "New Zealand PM
>>cheats
>>death in air drama - 4 hrs ago" -- all because the door on an Aztec popped
>>open
>>in flight? Give me a break!
>>
>>George Patterson
>> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
>> mashed potatoes.
>
>
>
> There are GA aircraft whose doors will latch closed? Not sure I've ever
> seen one...

Never seen a Cessna 150?

In any case, what of it? Flying around with an open door in a light plane is a
non-event. Certainly not "cheating death" as was reported.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

george

April 15th 05, 07:14 AM

George Patterson wrote:
> Wallace Berry wrote:
> > In article <3oc7e.19394$1p4.12250@trndny06>,
> > George Patterson > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Mike Granby wrote:
> >>
> >>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4439341.stm
> >>
> >>And the headline from the Daily Mail link on that site is "New
Zealand PM
> >>cheats
> >>death in air drama - 4 hrs ago" -- all because the door on an Aztec
popped
> >>open
> >>in flight? Give me a break!
> >>
> >>George Patterson
> >> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next
to the
> >> mashed potatoes.
> >
> >
> >
> > There are GA aircraft whose doors will latch closed? Not sure I've
ever
> > seen one...
>
> Never seen a Cessna 150?
>
> In any case, what of it? Flying around with an open door in a light
plane is a
> non-event. Certainly not "cheating death" as was reported.

It's election year here George. Politicians will do anything to attract
attention. Especially ones who are having problems :-)

Roger

April 15th 05, 07:25 AM

On 13 Apr 2005 11:03:27 -0700, "Denny" > wrote:

>Bob Gardner Apr 13, 8:52 am show options
>
>Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
>From: "Bob Gardner" > - Find messages by this author
>
>Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:52:22 -0700
>Local: Wed,Apr 13 2005 8:52 am
>Subject: Re: Shock! Horror! Door pops open!
>Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
>original | Report Abuse
>
>If the door of an Aztec pops open, it will only open about 4-6 inches
>and
>will kind of oscillate back and forth between those extremes
>************************************************** ****************************8
>
>Same on the Apache when the CFI in the right seat apparently couldn't
>close a door reliably... Non event - and I was in no hurry to land as
>he was the one getting his butt frozen (that's called 'behavior
>modification')...
>Since then however, I let no one close the cabin door but me...

As the person in the right seat sits down I emphatically state, "I'll
get the door", unless he or she is already reaching and then it's a
fast "I'LL GET THE DOOR!"

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>Actually ticked off one high time, ace pilot (in his own mind) when he
>slammed and locked the door against my clear instruction that I would
>close the door, I reached over and opened the door then re-closed it
>myself... He never asked to fly again... ah well....
>
>Denny

Dylan Smith

April 15th 05, 12:01 PM

In article <mQF7e.8258$ff4.7120@trndny08>, George Patterson wrote:
> Never seen a Cessna 150?

I've steered Cessna 150s with the doors :-)

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Dylan Smith

April 15th 05, 12:04 PM

In article . com>, Ben Hallert wrote:
> happened. He starts laughing, and it turns out that the wind in cabin
> grabbed the new instrument training hood that he had purchased the day
> earlier (to replace a cracked on) and sucked it out the door.

Oh, I can beat that. I opened the window on our old Cessna 140. Instead
of opening normally, it opened an inch or two, fluttered a bit then
departed the airframe and went off to meet its destiny in Galveston
Bay...

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Mortimer Schnerd, RN

April 15th 05, 12:30 PM

Dylan Smith wrote:
> Oh, I can beat that. I opened the window on our old Cessna 140. Instead
> of opening normally, it opened an inch or two, fluttered a bit then
> departed the airframe and went off to meet its destiny in Galveston
> Bay...

Expensive climate control....

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

John Ousterhout

April 15th 05, 03:41 PM

Dylan Smith wrote:
> In article <mQF7e.8258$ff4.7120@trndny08>, George Patterson wrote:
>
>>Never seen a Cessna 150?
>
>
> I've steered Cessna 150s with the doors :-)

I was once flying the club 172 with my buddy MadDog. We'd recently
heard Captain Al Haynes speak about United 232 - the DC-10 that suffered
a total hydraulic failure - and how they controlled the plane with only
power.

So we decided to try it ourselves. While trimmed for cruise we
pretended that we had a total control failure. It was simple to control
altitude with power. We unlatched both doors and pushed one or the
other open for directional control. Turns were very slow but control
was good enough that we flew back to the airport and established a
straight-in approach with an appropriate rate of descent. At about 200
AGL common sense prevailed and I took the controls and went around. I'm
sure we'd have landed OK (on a wide runway) but I wouldn't have wanted
to deal with a crosswind gust on short final.

The only problem with opening the doors was the turbulence inside.
After we secured all the loose charts and checklists that was no problem.

- John Ousterhout -

Kyler Laird

April 16th 05, 12:08 AM

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > writes:

>Kyler Laird wrote:
>> My experience is that holding it (close to) closed makes the ride
>> *much* nicer. I've not had the door pop open when I've been flying
>> alone. It'd be interesting.

>It's pretty much a non-event.

Do you have any relevant experience to support that? The times it's
happened to me I have certainly not enjoyed the instant (external)
shaking of the controls which got worse as the door was allowed to
move freely.

> It's annoying, noisy, and sometimes wet. I flew
>an Arrow in hard IFR from Key West to Rock Hill, SC once with the damned door
>popped open.

Perhaps you're thinking that the Aztec and Arrow have similar airframes.
They don't. (The Seneca is close though.)

--kyler

Judah

April 16th 05, 02:58 AM

"Mike Granby" > wrote in news:1113400218.905492.56470
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4439341.stm
>

Thank heavens the window didn't come open!

George Patterson

April 16th 05, 04:02 AM

george wrote:
>
> It's election year here George. Politicians will do anything to attract
> attention. Especially ones who are having problems :-)

Crystal.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

james

April 16th 05, 04:13 AM

my favorite aviation resrepresention is an adam sandler movie (can't
remember name), where him and another convict or something land a
medium size twin on a mesa, (due to fuel starvation), and it tweeters
on the edge for a while

of course they make it out the back door, and as the plane falls off
the cliff it explodes like a supernova. (from what, the oil? they're
out of gas)

oh wait i must correct myself, i just saw the lifetime movie
"airspeed" in which a bratty prep schooled 14 year old girl lands a
plane. both controller and pilot just guess at random terms.:

George Patterson

April 16th 05, 04:36 AM

james wrote:
>
> of course they make it out the back door, and as the plane falls off
> the cliff it explodes like a supernova. (from what, the oil? they're
> out of gas)

An empty gas tank is much more explosive than one with fuel in it.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

Peter Duniho

April 16th 05, 08:51 AM

"james" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> my favorite aviation resrepresention is an adam sandler movie (can't
> remember name), where him and another convict or something land a
> medium size twin on a mesa, (due to fuel starvation), and it tweeters
> on the edge for a while
>
> of course they make it out the back door, and as the plane falls off
> the cliff it explodes like a supernova. (from what, the oil? they're
> out of gas)

That doesn't sound nearly as bad as the plane crash at the beginning of "The
Net". This guy's flying along, everything's fine, and all of the sudden a
couple of smokestacks pop out of nowhere and smite his airplane. Not pilot
error, either...the evil genuises who form the basis of the plot of the
movie arranged it all.

Pete

Chris

April 16th 05, 09:24 AM

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Mike Granby" > wrote in news:1113400218.905492.56470
> @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4439341.stm

I like the example she is setting. Maybe GW should use an Aztec for Airforce
One. Reduce the tax bill a bit.

Mortimer Schnerd, RN

April 16th 05, 10:37 AM

George Patterson wrote:
> An empty gas tank is much more explosive than one with fuel in it.

Yes, but then there's nothing to burn. Movie airplanes burn like they had more
fuel on board than the 9/11 jetliners.

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Mortimer Schnerd, RN

April 16th 05, 10:40 AM

Kyler Laird wrote:
>> It's pretty much a non-event.
>
> Do you have any relevant experience to support that? The times it's
> happened to me I have certainly not enjoyed the instant (external)
> shaking of the controls which got worse as the door was allowed to
> move freely.

I opened my mouth before I thought. I don't have any Aztec time, though I do
have quite a bit in a Geronimo Apache conversion. I vaguely remember hearing
something during checkout about the door coming open, and I also recall it
happening once, but I don't remember anything dire happening.

I have always considered it more of an inconvenience and annoyance than anything
else. Obviously, the Aztec may be different.

My bad.

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Capt.Doug

April 17th 05, 03:38 AM

>"Kyler Laird" wrote in message>
> I've not had the door pop open when I've been flying
> alone. It'd be interesting.

How would it differ?

> Anyone want to talk about the piece of piano wire that actuates the
> Aztec's door pins?

The main hinges use a .375" rod. Common causes of doors opening in flight
are from letting the passenger close them.

D.

George Patterson

April 17th 05, 04:23 AM

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> George Patterson wrote:
>
>>An empty gas tank is much more explosive than one with fuel in it.
>
> Yes, but then there's nothing to burn.

James said "explosion."

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

Roger

April 17th 05, 07:13 AM

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 03:23:30 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

>Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>> George Patterson wrote:
>>
>>>An empty gas tank is much more explosive than one with fuel in it.
>>
>> Yes, but then there's nothing to burn.
>
>James said "explosion."

But an empty tank full of fumes is above the UEL and is unlikely to
cause an explosion or fire in a crash. If the tank ruptures the fumes
will most likely dissipate quickly.

If I have to go down hard, I'd much rather do it with empty tanks, but
being paranoid about fuel I'd probably even have gas in the thermos
bottle. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

Kyler Laird

April 19th 05, 04:08 AM

"Capt.Doug" > writes:

>>"Kyler Laird" wrote in message>
>> I've not had the door pop open when I've been flying
>> alone. It'd be interesting.

>How would it differ?

Not having someone to hold it steady would leave it to flop freely.
The flopping seems to be what causes the plane to waggle. (I'm
tempted to try it in a controlled situation with someone other than
my wife sitting by the door.)

>> Anyone want to talk about the piece of piano wire that actuates the
>> Aztec's door pins?

>The main hinges use a .375" rod. Common causes of doors opening in flight
>are from letting the passenger close them.

Yup, but I've had the wire break and watching Lake Michigan through the
resulting gap was a little disconcerting.

--kyler

Highflyer

April 19th 05, 06:59 AM

>
>"Kyler Laird" wrote in message>
> I've not had the door pop open when I've been flying
> alone. It'd be interesting.
>
>
> Not having someone to hold it steady would leave it to flop freely.
> The flopping seems to be what causes the plane to waggle. (I'm
> tempted to try it in a controlled situation with someone other than
> my wife sitting by the door.)
>

Kyler,

I have had the door pop open on me in an Apache, which is the same basic
fuselage as the Aztec. The door will open about six inches or so measured
at the back edge. It does NOT flop around. In fact, I had a heck of a time
getting it to move either in or out by pushing and pulling on it.

They say you can get the door shut in the air when solo if you first open
the window on the pilots side to relieve the interior air pressure. All I
know is I tried everything I could think of in that darn Apache. I slipped
it, I stalled it, I opened the window, I closed the window, I went as fast
as I could ... nothing worked and I couldn't get the door to close enough
to reengage the door latch. I finally just flew to an airport and landed.
Latched the door. Took off and flew on home.

Without charts, because they had gone out the darn door when it first
opened! They were laying on the right seat. :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )