Getting used to the Arrow...and I like it...a lot!

[Jack Allison]

To date I have a whopping 8 hours in the Arrow. The last 2.9 were by
far the most fun since the two flights involved maneuvers and landings
(lots of landings). The more I get to fly N2104T, the more I like it.
Things are becoming more and more comfortable and familiar. Still have
lots to learn but I'm having fun. Hopefully, I'll be able to get some
solo time soon, maybe in a week or so. Solo will be rather interesting
since I haven't done so since last August, right before my FBO melted down.

Overall impressions to date:
- Float down the runway? Nope, it ain't a C-172. Much harder to float
down the runway in an Arrow. Easier to contact said runway with carrier
landing force though.

- Pull the power back and you can drop like a streamlined manhole cover
if you need to. I'll bet forward slips are fun (have yet to try them).

- Things are busier in the pattern with the addition of gear, more
speeds to remember, CS prop, extra mantras you chant (My personal
favorite is "Pump(s), Red(s), Blue(s), Greens" on short final for the
last check of boost pump on, mixture full rich, prop full forward, and 3
in the green).

- The ground moves by faster now. Not that I'm doing a whole lot of
looking down but it takes less time flying to/from the practice area.

- 200 HP at sea level on a cool evening and lightly loaded is fun.

- I'd almost forgotten how much better I like fuel injection. Have
experienced lots of carb ice situations in the Archer during evening
instrument lessons. One less thing to worry about.

- When working on a Complex endorsement, your CFI has a whole new set of
options for messing with you. "What, no 3-green...what ya gonna do
there Mr. Pilot?".

- Engine out scenarios work way better when you pull the prop back.
Very good object lesson in drag reduction.

- Would rather have airspeed in knots...though, I learned that you can
setup the GNS-430 for MPH...but...why? :-)

- Stalls are rather unimpressive, similar to the Archer.
Buffet...yawn...that's it. A good thing.

- Wing on the bottom vs. wing on the top: Really doesn't matter. I'm
just happy to own something with a wing. :-)

- It's really cool to (honestly) say "Yes it is" when asked "Is that
your Arrow?". The closest I was able to do so in the past was answer
"Yes, it's ours by the hour" when asked about newer model rentals I
happed to be flying in.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Student Arrow Owner, N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jim Burns]

Second only to a new student who comes back from his first flight full of
enthusiasum with an ear to ear grin is the new owner who has just came back
from one of his first "comfortable" flights in his new airplane.

Are you having fun or what Jack??!! :)

>
> - When working on a Complex endorsement, your CFI has a whole new set of
> options for messing with you. "What, no 3-green...what ya gonna do
> there Mr. Pilot?".

You're going to relax and get the checklist out. Don't try to memorize what
to do for this one. If you memorize it for one plane, you'll screw
something up in another plane. This one isn't an emergency... it's a
situation... it just becomes an emergency if you are actually forced to put
it down with the wheels in the wells.

Keep having fun!

Jim

[Jay Honeck]

> - Pull the power back and you can drop like a streamlined manhole cover
> if you need to. I'll bet forward slips are fun (have yet to try them).

A forward slip in our Pathfinder is like riding a peregrine falcon in a
vertical dive. The world gets big, really, really fast.

> - 200 HP at sea level on a cool evening and lightly loaded is fun.

Ain't it? I remember my first flight in our Pathfinder, with a 145 pound
CFI, light on fuel, in the winter. Yee ha! All I could see was sky.

There is simply no substitute for horsepower.

> - I'd almost forgotten how much better I like fuel injection. Have
> experienced lots of carb ice situations in the Archer during evening
> instrument lessons. One less thing to worry about.

First time I've ever heard of a Cherokee icing. It's never happened to me,
even in the damp, cold Midwest. (Cessnas are another story...)

> - It's really cool to (honestly) say "Yes it is" when asked "Is that your
> Arrow?".

Pride of ownership is worth all the headaches and hassles. (Just keep
repeating that at annual time, over and over...)

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jack Allison]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> A forward slip in our Pathfinder is like riding a peregrine falcon in a
> vertical dive. The world gets big, really, really fast.
Hmmm, sounds like I need to try a few the next time out with my instructor.

> First time I've ever heard of a Cherokee icing. It's never happened to me,
> even in the damp, cold Midwest. (Cessnas are another story...)
Yep, I was surprised as well but on several instrument lessons at night,
I'd be flying a DME arc or a hold and all of a sudden realize that I'm
holding some back pressure to maintain altitude...look at the tach and
notice that we've lost maybe 150 RPM. Apply carb heat, power drops then
vrooommm, we're back at the initial power setting.

> Pride of ownership is worth all the headaches and hassles. (Just keep
> repeating that at annual time, over and over...)
I'll try to remember this one.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Student Arrow Owner, N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Javier Henderson]

Jack Allison > writes:

> - Would rather have airspeed in knots...though, I learned that you can
> setup the GNS-430 for MPH...but...why? :-)

So the speeds look bigger.

-jav

[john smith]

Jack Allison wrote:
> Overall impressions to date:
> - Float down the runway? Nope, it ain't a C-172. Much harder to float
> down the runway in an Arrow. Easier to contact said runway with carrier
> landing force though.

What speeds are you using?
Downwind:
Base:
Final:
Short Final:
Over the Threshhold:

> - Pull the power back and you can drop like a streamlined manhole cover
> if you need to. I'll bet forward slips are fun (have yet to try them).

Theory question: What is the minimum Indicated Airspeed for a slip?
Is there a difference between right and left slips?

> - Things are busier in the pattern with the addition of gear, more
> speeds to remember, CS prop, extra mantras you chant (My personal
> favorite is "Pump(s), Red(s), Blue(s), Greens" on short final for the
> last check of boost pump on, mixture full rich, prop full forward, and 3
> in the green).

Remember that one of the greatest causes of gear up accidents is a go
around. The pilot brings the gear up reenters the pattern and forgets to
put it back down.

Jack, have you downloaded the PA28 review from the AOPA Aviation Safety
Institute website?

Which engine priming system does your aircraft have?

[Cockpit Colin]

> - Float down the runway? Nope, it ain't a C-172. Much harder to float
> down the runway in an Arrow. Easier to contact said runway with carrier
> landing force though.

I've discovered that once people stop bringing C172's across the fence at
Vso + 40 knots they stop floating too :)

Only comment I'd make about the arrow is that you bring it in with full
flap, on the back of the drag curve, keep some power on or you'll go to
flare and find you've insufficient elevator authority to arrest your decent
(ie running out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas at the same time = carrier
landing). (Actually, we're gunna have to stop calling them "Carrier
Landings" - I've been doing a bit of reading up on them - those poor
*******s are touching down at 500 to 700 fpm, with no flare - then pulling
4g on the arrester wires - OUCH!)

By the way, I've lost count of the number of times I've only had 2 (or no
greens) - I think I worked it out at 1 indicator issue per 10 hours at one
stage - at least the gear has physically always been down when I needed it.
It's a good time to think about what options you have when (not if) this
happens to you - not just "running the drill", but just things as a flypast
the tower, or getting a mechanic in another aircraft to have a close look
from underneath. Most Arrows will haul a good load, so if you're safety
conscious, you might like to consider carrying an extra 1/2 hours worth of
fuel to give you extra time to sort out any gear issues.

> - I'd almost forgotten how much better I like fuel injection.

Until you have to warm start one :(


> - Engine out scenarios work way better when you pull the prop back.
> Very good object lesson in drag reduction.

In the event of a real total failure you can augment this even more by
opening the throttle.

>
> - It's really cool to (honestly) say "Yes it is" when asked "Is that your
> Arrow?".

Until they go on to say "Great, been looking for you - I'm from the FAA and
I've noticed that you appear to have failed to ..." :(

[Cockpit Colin]

> What speeds are you using?
> Downwind:
> Base:
> Final:
> Short Final:
> Over the Threshhold:

Something that's always worked for me ...

Take Vso (bottom of white arc) - reduce it by 5% for every 10% under MAUW
then multiply it by ...

1.3 for over the fence speed
1.4 for Base
1.5 for downwind

Works for all aircraft I've flown (although I add a bit in C172 - Vso
(adjusted) can be as low as 28 knots - so at 28 * 1.3 (approx 37) it still
hasn't stalled, but controls are getting pretty mushy (any people who bring
them over the fence at 65 to 70 wonder why they float!)

[Robert M. Gary]

Jack,
In a previous post, it sounded like you fly near Sacramento. If you
need any advice on shops for various types of work, let me know. I used
to have an Arrow, I now have a Mooney. The two are VERY similar. The
only noticable difference to the pilot is the wing. The Arrow has the
easy going Piper wing and the Mooney has the laminar wing.

-Robert

[Dave Butler]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>- I'd almost forgotten how much better I like fuel injection. Have
>>experienced lots of carb ice situations in the Archer during evening
>>instrument lessons. One less thing to worry about.
>
>
> First time I've ever heard of a Cherokee icing. It's never happened to me,
> even in the damp, cold Midwest. (Cessnas are another story...)

You'll probably never need to know about it unless you fly in IMC. Try flying at
holding or approach airspeed inside a cloud for a while in a carbureted Cherokee
without the c-heat on.

[Turbo Arrow]

you turn on the boost pump on landing?
Are you sure your suppose to do that?
In my turbo arrow boost is not required for landing or take off, you can use it
on low boost to reduce vapor on hot days prior to take off but other then that
its not touched unless there is an emergency. Thats in the t-arrow, I would
think the normally aspirated one would be the same.

overall the arrow is a good plane, I like it allot
just a note, on decents, instead of reducign power to come down, you can just
pull the prop back, it will cause more drag so you can decend but keep engine
from shock cooling (BTW this is out of the manual)

Jeff

Jack Allison wrote:

> To date I have a whopping 8 hours in the Arrow. The last 2.9 were by
> far the most fun since the two flights involved maneuvers and landings
> (lots of landings). The more I get to fly N2104T, the more I like it.
> Things are becoming more and more comfortable and familiar. Still have
> lots to learn but I'm having fun. Hopefully, I'll be able to get some
> solo time soon, maybe in a week or so. Solo will be rather interesting
> since I haven't done so since last August, right before my FBO melted down.
>
> Overall impressions to date:
> - Float down the runway? Nope, it ain't a C-172. Much harder to float
> down the runway in an Arrow. Easier to contact said runway with carrier
> landing force though.
>
> - Pull the power back and you can drop like a streamlined manhole cover
> if you need to. I'll bet forward slips are fun (have yet to try them).
>
> - Things are busier in the pattern with the addition of gear, more
> speeds to remember, CS prop, extra mantras you chant (My personal
> favorite is "Pump(s), Red(s), Blue(s), Greens" on short final for the
> last check of boost pump on, mixture full rich, prop full forward, and 3
> in the green).
>
> - The ground moves by faster now. Not that I'm doing a whole lot of
> looking down but it takes less time flying to/from the practice area.
>
> - 200 HP at sea level on a cool evening and lightly loaded is fun.
>
> - I'd almost forgotten how much better I like fuel injection. Have
> experienced lots of carb ice situations in the Archer during evening
> instrument lessons. One less thing to worry about.
>
> - When working on a Complex endorsement, your CFI has a whole new set of
> options for messing with you. "What, no 3-green...what ya gonna do
> there Mr. Pilot?".
>
> - Engine out scenarios work way better when you pull the prop back.
> Very good object lesson in drag reduction.
>
> - Would rather have airspeed in knots...though, I learned that you can
> setup the GNS-430 for MPH...but...why? :-)
>
> - Stalls are rather unimpressive, similar to the Archer.
> Buffet...yawn...that's it. A good thing.
>
> - Wing on the bottom vs. wing on the top: Really doesn't matter. I'm
> just happy to own something with a wing. :-)
>
> - It's really cool to (honestly) say "Yes it is" when asked "Is that
> your Arrow?". The closest I was able to do so in the past was answer
> "Yes, it's ours by the hour" when asked about newer model rentals I
> happed to be flying in.
>
> --
> Jack Allison
> PP-ASEL-IA Student
> Student Arrow Owner, N2104T
>
> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
> with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
> you will always long to return"
> - Leonardo Da Vinci
>
> (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Turbo Arrow]

get used to this happening, in my arrow it happened a couple of time, once was
a bad bulb in the gear light, another time a bad sensor switch that activated
the light on my right main.
I simply just tell the tower I have 2 greens and if he can verify my landing
gear is down and do a low approach over the runway so he can take a look. He
can see if its down but does not know its locked.

Jack Allison wrote:

>
>
> - When working on a Complex endorsement, your CFI has a whole new set of
> options for messing with you. "What, no 3-green...what ya gonna do
> there Mr. Pilot?".
>

[Turbo Arrow]

one thing you do have to worry about it the butterfly valve for the alt air
sticking.
I was in IMC, temp at freezing, and started losing power, I added power and the
engine picked back up but had my mechanics look at it anyways, they said I
probably had some induction icing and the alt air vavle thats suppose to open
automatically probably stuck.

Jack Allison wrote:-


> experienced lots of carb ice situations in the Archer during evening
> instrument lessons. One less thing to worry about.
>

[Turbo Arrow]

I have 2 ways of flying my arrow, in the winter I come in with no flaps and
summer I use full flaps because of the change in air density,if I used full
flaps in the winter I would float sometimes

Cockpit Colin wrote:

> Only comment I'd make about the arrow is that you bring it in with full
> flap, on the back of the drag curve, keep some power on or you'll go to
> flare and find you've insufficient elevator authority to arrest your decent
> (ie running out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas at the same time = carrier
> landing). (Actually, we're gunna have to stop calling them "Carrier
> Landings" - I've been doing a bit of reading up on them - those poor
> *******s are touching down at 500 to 700 fpm, with no flare - then pulling
> 4g on the arrester wires - OUCH!)
>
> By the way, I've lost count of the number of times I've only had 2 (or no
> greens) - I think I worked it out at 1 indicator issue per 10 hours at one
> stage - at least the gear has physically always been down when I needed it.
> It's a good time to think about what options you have when (not if) this
> happens to you - not just "running the drill", but just things as a flypast
> the tower, or getting a mechanic in another aircraft to have a close look
> from underneath. Most Arrows will haul a good load, so if you're safety
> conscious, you might like to consider carrying an extra 1/2 hours worth of
> fuel to give you extra time to sort out any gear issues.
>
> > - I'd almost forgotten how much better I like fuel injection.
>
> Until you have to warm start one :(
>
> > - Engine out scenarios work way better when you pull the prop back.
> > Very good object lesson in drag reduction.
>
> In the event of a real total failure you can augment this even more by
> opening the throttle.
>
> >
> > - It's really cool to (honestly) say "Yes it is" when asked "Is that your
> > Arrow?".
>
> Until they go on to say "Great, been looking for you - I'm from the FAA and
> I've noticed that you appear to have failed to ..." :(

[AliR]

Wait til you get in a Bonanza :D

AliR.

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> To date I have a whopping 8 hours in the Arrow. The last 2.9 were by
> far the most fun since the two flights involved maneuvers and landings
> (lots of landings). The more I get to fly N2104T, the more I like it.
> Things are becoming more and more comfortable and familiar. Still have
> lots to learn but I'm having fun. Hopefully, I'll be able to get some
> solo time soon, maybe in a week or so. Solo will be rather interesting
> since I haven't done so since last August, right before my FBO melted
down.
>
> Overall impressions to date:
> - Float down the runway? Nope, it ain't a C-172. Much harder to float
> down the runway in an Arrow. Easier to contact said runway with carrier
> landing force though.
>
> - Pull the power back and you can drop like a streamlined manhole cover
> if you need to. I'll bet forward slips are fun (have yet to try them).
>
> - Things are busier in the pattern with the addition of gear, more
> speeds to remember, CS prop, extra mantras you chant (My personal
> favorite is "Pump(s), Red(s), Blue(s), Greens" on short final for the
> last check of boost pump on, mixture full rich, prop full forward, and 3
> in the green).
>
> - The ground moves by faster now. Not that I'm doing a whole lot of
> looking down but it takes less time flying to/from the practice area.
>
> - 200 HP at sea level on a cool evening and lightly loaded is fun.
>
> - I'd almost forgotten how much better I like fuel injection. Have
> experienced lots of carb ice situations in the Archer during evening
> instrument lessons. One less thing to worry about.
>
> - When working on a Complex endorsement, your CFI has a whole new set of
> options for messing with you. "What, no 3-green...what ya gonna do
> there Mr. Pilot?".
>
> - Engine out scenarios work way better when you pull the prop back.
> Very good object lesson in drag reduction.
>
> - Would rather have airspeed in knots...though, I learned that you can
> setup the GNS-430 for MPH...but...why? :-)
>
> - Stalls are rather unimpressive, similar to the Archer.
> Buffet...yawn...that's it. A good thing.
>
> - Wing on the bottom vs. wing on the top: Really doesn't matter. I'm
> just happy to own something with a wing. :-)
>
> - It's really cool to (honestly) say "Yes it is" when asked "Is that
> your Arrow?". The closest I was able to do so in the past was answer
> "Yes, it's ours by the hour" when asked about newer model rentals I
> happed to be flying in.
>
>
> --
> Jack Allison
> PP-ASEL-IA Student
> Student Arrow Owner, N2104T
>
> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
> with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
> you will always long to return"
> - Leonardo Da Vinci
>
> (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[john smith]

One of aviation's Rules of Thumb...
an approximate best approach speed is found halfway between the top and
bottom of the white arc.

Cockpit Colin wrote:
> Something that's always worked for me ...
> Take Vso (bottom of white arc) - reduce it by 5% for every 10% under MAUW
> then multiply it by ...
> 1.3 for over the fence speed
> 1.4 for Base
> 1.5 for downwind
> Works for all aircraft I've flown (although I add a bit in C172 - Vso
> (adjusted) can be as low as 28 knots - so at 28 * 1.3 (approx 37) it still
> hasn't stalled, but controls are getting pretty mushy (any people who bring
> them over the fence at 65 to 70 wonder why they float!)

[john smith]

It depends on the Arrow and which fuel primer system you have.
Do you have the optional system with the primer button on the panel and
a HI/LO fuel pump rocker switch in the bank of rocker switches with the
MASTER? Or, do you have another arrangement?

Turbo Arrow wrote:
> you turn on the boost pump on landing?
> Are you sure your suppose to do that?
> In my turbo arrow boost is not required for landing or take off, you can use it
> on low boost to reduce vapor on hot days prior to take off but other then that
> its not touched unless there is an emergency. Thats in the t-arrow, I would
> think the normally aspirated one would be the same.

[Matt Barrow]

"Turbo Arrow" > wrote in message
...
> I have 2 ways of flying my arrow, in the winter I come in with no flaps
and
> summer I use full flaps because of the change in air density,if I used
full
> flaps in the winter I would float sometimes
>

More likely you would float during the summer from the thermals associated
with ground heating.

[kage]

>>>just a note, on decents, instead of reducign power to come down, you can
>>>just
pull the prop back>>>


Pulling the prop back IS reducing power.

Karl
"Curator"
N185KG

[john smith]

kage wrote:
>>>>just a note, on decents, instead of reducign power to come down, you can
>>>>just pull the prop back>>>

> Pulling the prop back IS reducing power.

I was taught not push the prop forward until I had the runway made.
(Pulling back reduces RPM, pushing it forward increases RPM)
Do you know how your prop "fails" when the engine stops pumping oil to
the governor?

[Jack Allison]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Jack,
> In a previous post, it sounded like you fly near Sacramento. If you
> need any advice on shops for various types of work, let me know. I used
> to have an Arrow, I now have a Mooney. The two are VERY similar. The
> only noticable difference to the pilot is the wing. The Arrow has the
> easy going Piper wing and the Mooney has the laminar wing.
>
Yes, I'm in the Sacramento area. Currently based at MCC but plan to be
at LHM as soon as a hanger opens up.

Shop recommendations greatly appreciated. Thanks!

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Student Arrow Owner, N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Turbo Arrow wrote:

> you turn on the boost pump on landing?
> Are you sure your suppose to do that?
Yes, part of the pre-landing checklist for non-turbo version.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Student Arrow Owner, N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Turbo Arrow]

I have not have problems with thermals making me float down the runway

Matt Barrow wrote:

> "Turbo Arrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I have 2 ways of flying my arrow, in the winter I come in with no flaps
> and
> > summer I use full flaps because of the change in air density,if I used
> full
> > flaps in the winter I would float sometimes
> >
>
> More likely you would float during the summer from the thermals associated
> with ground heating.

[Turbo Arrow]

yes I have the optional electric primer and hi/lo rocker.
I flew a normally aspirated arrow a couple of times that did not have the electric
primer and it also did not require the boost pump, but all I have flown are arrow
III's, the older ones may be different.

john smith wrote:

> It depends on the Arrow and which fuel primer system you have.
> Do you have the optional system with the primer button on the panel and
> a HI/LO fuel pump rocker switch in the bank of rocker switches with the
> MASTER? Or, do you have another arrangement?
>
> Turbo Arrow wrote:
> > you turn on the boost pump on landing?
> > Are you sure your suppose to do that?
> > In my turbo arrow boost is not required for landing or take off, you can use it
> > on low boost to reduce vapor on hot days prior to take off but other then that
> > its not touched unless there is an emergency. Thats in the t-arrow, I would
> > think the normally aspirated one would be the same.

[Turbo Arrow]

yes I know, maybe I should have said MP pressure instead of power, but I
assumed most people would have known what I ment.

kage wrote:

> >>>just a note, on decents, instead of reducign power to come down, you can
> >>>just
> pull the prop back>>>
>
> Pulling the prop back IS reducing power.
>
> Karl
> "Curator"
> N185KG

[Turbo Arrow]

I was not talking about landings, I am talking about comming down from say,
12,000 ft.
As I said, this is in the book, not something I made up off the top of my head.


john smith wrote:

> kage wrote:
> >>>>just a note, on decents, instead of reducign power to come down, you can
> >>>>just pull the prop back>>>
>
> > Pulling the prop back IS reducing power.
>
> I was taught not push the prop forward until I had the runway made.
> (Pulling back reduces RPM, pushing it forward increases RPM)
> Do you know how your prop "fails" when the engine stops pumping oil to
> the governor?

[Turbo Arrow]

I see its a 1971, is that an Arrow II ?
Its a nice looking plane BTW


Jack Allison wrote:

> Turbo Arrow wrote:
>
> > you turn on the boost pump on landing?
> > Are you sure your suppose to do that?
> Yes, part of the pre-landing checklist for non-turbo version.
>
> --
> Jack Allison
> PP-ASEL-IA Student
> Student Arrow Owner, N2104T
>
> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
> with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
> you will always long to return"
> - Leonardo Da Vinci
>
> (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Turbo Arrow wrote:
> yes I know, maybe I should have said MP pressure instead of power, but I
> assumed most people would have known what I ment.


Something else you may want to consider: in cruise, rather than flying at
2400/24", find another power combination that gives the same percentage of power
but uses lower RPM / higher manifold pressure. It yields noticably less noise
and makes for a more pleasant ride.

I wasn't paying attention... we're not talking about a Turbo Arrow, are we? If
we are, forget I said anything about 24". Less RPM still means less noise.
Your passengers will appreciate it, as will your wife when you're 50 and saying
"what?" all the time.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Matt Barrow]

"Turbo Arrow" > wrote in message
...
> I have not have problems with thermals making me float down the runway
>

An airplane impervious to ground effect?

> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> > "Turbo Arrow" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I have 2 ways of flying my arrow, in the winter I come in with no
flaps
> > and
> > > summer I use full flaps because of the change in air density,if I used
> > full
> > > flaps in the winter I would float sometimes
> > >
> >
> > More likely you would float during the summer from the thermals
associated
> > with ground heating.
>
>

[kage]

I knew you knew, but this is "Usenet" and I just had to harangue you! In a
crew situation being very succinct is important.

Plus others might be afraid to pull the prop back due to some OWTs.

Best,
Karl

"Turbo Arrow" > wrote in message
...
> yes I know, maybe I should have said MP pressure instead of power, but I
> assumed most people would have known what I ment.
>
> kage wrote:
>
>> >>>just a note, on decents, instead of reducign power to come down, you
>> >>>can
>> >>>just
>> pull the prop back>>>
>>
>> Pulling the prop back IS reducing power.
>>
>> Karl
>> "Curator"
>> N185KG
>

[kage]

If EVER there was an airplane that didn't float it would be an Arrow II. I
was fortunate enough to instruct in the entire Piper line for a couple of
years (with Bob Gardner!) Except Bob went on to become rich and famous and I
just had to fly for food.

Arrow II does not "float"

Best,
Karl


"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Turbo Arrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I have not have problems with thermals making me float down the runway
>>
>
> An airplane impervious to ground effect?
>
>> Matt Barrow wrote:
>>
>> > "Turbo Arrow" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > > I have 2 ways of flying my arrow, in the winter I come in with no
> flaps
>> > and
>> > > summer I use full flaps because of the change in air density,if I
>> > > used
>> > full
>> > > flaps in the winter I would float sometimes
>> > >
>> >
>> > More likely you would float during the summer from the thermals
> associated
>> > with ground heating.
>>
>>
>
>

[Blueskies]

"kage" > wrote in message ...
> If EVER there was an airplane that didn't float it would be an Arrow II. I was fortunate enough to instruct in the
> entire Piper line for a couple of years (with Bob Gardner!) Except Bob went on to become rich and famous and I just
> had to fly for food.
>
> Arrow II does not "float"
>
> Best,
> Karl
>

Yup, if airplanes floated, they would be airships. ;-)

It is all a matter of airspeed control...

[Peter Duniho]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
> "Turbo Arrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I have not have problems with thermals making me float down the runway
>
> An airplane impervious to ground effect?

What does ground effect have to do with thermals?

Nothing, that's what.

[Jack Allison]

Turbo Arrow wrote:
> I see its a 1971, is that an Arrow II ?
Nope...'72 is the first year for the Arrow II. So, I have an Arrow 200B.

> Its a nice looking plane BTW
Thanks. It flies as nice as it looks.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Student Arrow Owner, N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Cockpit Colin]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> One of aviation's Rules of Thumb...
> an approximate best approach speed is found halfway between the top and
> bottom of the white arc.

It's certainly never going to kill you, but it doesn't make any adjustments
for being light (say 1 pilot, and minimal fuel) - which can make approx 13
knots difference to the ideal approach speed in the Arrow (and 10 knots
difference to your dirty stall speed).

Since I started calculating approach speeds I've been amazed at how the
consistancy of my landings has improved - even 5 knots makes a difference.

[Dave Butler]

Turbo Arrow wrote:

> just a note, on decents, instead of reducign power to come down, you can just
> pull the prop back, it will cause more drag so you can decend but keep engine
> from shock cooling (BTW this is out of the manual)

"pulling the prop back" increases drag? Do you mean pulling on the propeller
control knob? How does that increase drag? Maybe you meant that it reduces power?

Dave

[Highflyer]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1113855718.630798@sj-nntpcache-3...
> Turbo Arrow wrote:
>
>> just a note, on decents, instead of reducign power to come down, you can
>> just
>> pull the prop back, it will cause more drag so you can decend but keep
>> engine
>> from shock cooling (BTW this is out of the manual)
>
> "pulling the prop back" increases drag? Do you mean pulling on the
> propeller control knob? How does that increase drag? Maybe you meant that
> it reduces power?
>
> Dave

No, it doesn't necessarily reduce power. Typically it will increase the
manifold pressure. If there is not a concomitant reduction in RPM the power
will increase. However, you will likely move the prop away from the optimum
pitch for the airspeed/RPM combination. This will reduce the effectiveness
of the horsepower to thrust conversion that you use the propellor for. That
means that more power will be required for the same thrust. This allows you
to maintain the thrust selected for the desired descent while producing
sufficient power to keep the cylinders warm and working.

However, I would not recommend that technique for all engines, even if it
would probably work alright for a geared engine. "pulling the prop back"
implies to me that you are increasing the pitch of the prop. With the
throttle setting unchanged this will result in a decrease in RPM and an
increase in Manifold Pressure. This moves you closer to the detonation
margin and could result in engine damage.

The normal procedure for increasing the pitch of a controllable or constant
speed prop is to reduce the throttle before increasing the pitch. With a
controllable prop you control the pitch directly. With a constant speed
prop you increase the pitch by reducing the RPM with the prop governor
control. High manifold pressure and low RPM is comparable to starting off
with your car in high gear. It lugs the engine.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

[Dave Butler]

Highflyer wrote:
> "Dave Butler" > wrote in message
> news:1113855718.630798@sj-nntpcache-3...
>
>>Turbo Arrow wrote:
>>
>>
>>>just a note, on decents, instead of reducign power to come down, you can
>>>just
>>>pull the prop back, it will cause more drag so you can decend but keep
>>>engine
>>>from shock cooling (BTW this is out of the manual)
>>
>>"pulling the prop back" increases drag? Do you mean pulling on the
>>propeller control knob? How does that increase drag? Maybe you meant that
>>it reduces power?

>
> No, it doesn't necessarily reduce power.

<snipped good stuff about how to operate your engine>

No disagreement there. I was trying to give Turbo Arrow a way to get out of his
assertion. Do you support Turbo Arrow's assertion that "pulling the prop back"
increases drag? I didn't think so.

Dave