GP 15 Jeta

[[email protected]]

Hi Guys,
Any news about the Gp glider out there? The 15 Jeta promise a revolution, but I cannot find much new info about It. Some owner could help?
Cheers

[kinsell]

On 6/23/20 6:48 AM, wrote:
> Hi Guys,
> Any news about the Gp glider out there? The 15 Jeta promise a revolution, but I cannot find much new info about It. Some owner could help?
> Cheers
>

Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 6/23/2020 5:48 AM:
> Hi Guys,
> Any news about the Gp glider out there? The 15 Jeta promise a revolution, but I cannot find much new info about It. Some owner could help?
> Cheers
>

I'm expecting my GP15 to be at least a month delayed. Seriously interested pilots
should contact Tom Holloran, the dealer, for the latest information. The month+
lockdown in April on businesses in Poland has delayed not just the GP factory, but
interrupted production at their suppliers, too, so glider production is delayed
ever further.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Turkey Vulture]

> Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
> eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.

Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!

[MNLou]

I am absolutely not trying to throw stones but a bigger prop, different motor (lower RPM) and a bigger rudder (all mentioned in another thread as being recent changes) do not appear to be minor changes.

Would someone please shed some light as to why these were changed now?

Thanks -

Lou

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 2:47:42 PM UTC-4, MNLou wrote:
> I am absolutely not trying to throw stones but a bigger prop, different motor (lower RPM) and a bigger rudder (all mentioned in another thread as being recent changes) do not appear to be minor changes.
>
> Would someone please shed some light as to why these were changed now?
>
> Thanks -
>
> Lou

Efficiency?
Handling harmony?
UH

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

MNLou wrote on 6/23/2020 11:47 AM:
> I am absolutely not trying to throw stones but a bigger prop, different motor (lower RPM) and a bigger rudder (all mentioned in another thread as being recent changes) do not appear to be minor changes.
>
> Would someone please shed some light as to why these were changed now?
>
The news from the factory did not mention the reasons, but the usual reasons for a
bigger prop are to increase prop efficiency and accept more power from the motor.
The increased torque the lower rpm motor provides may increase the P-factor,
making a larger rudder worthwhile. But, as I noted, the factory did not elaborate.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[kinsell]

On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:
>
>> Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
>> eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.
>
> Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!
>

To be fair, it has flown once. It got air-freighted to the convention
to suck in new orders

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Oh Kinsell
Ouch
Thats gotta hurt
Nick
T

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> >
> >> Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
> >> eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.
> >
> > Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!
> >
>
> To be fair, it has flown once. It got air-freighted to the convention
> to suck in new orders

<rim shot>

Well played.

T8

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> >
> >> Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
> >> eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.
> >
> > Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!
> >
>
> To be fair, it has flown once. It got air-freighted to the convention
> to suck in new orders

I am so happy I did not order one! It was tempting to get such a light motor glider. After so many years of promises I am not sure there is hope for this glider at all. I feel sorry for the people who put money down. Shame on the manufacturer. I don't know what the guy is thinking, this sounds like a ponzi scheme.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

kinsell wrote on 6/24/2020 5:57 AM:
> On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:
>>
>>> Some owner?* There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
>>> eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.
>>
>> Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!
>>
>
> To be fair, it has flown once.* It got air-freighted to the convention to suck in
> new orders

With the conventions on a two year cycle, displaying the glider this year was a
very important PR event. It was useful to me to sit in it, so I got decide between
the two fuselages - ditto for other current and potential customers. The scheduled
test flight was prevented by a snow covered runway at the airport used by the
factory.

My ASH26E came with a steerable tailwheel that had never been tested for a similar
reason (it was also delivered a year later than originally expected). Stuff
happens with new models of gliders, and getting one of the first few has more
risks than later orders.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[kinsell]

On 6/24/20 7:18 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
>> On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:
>>>
>>>> Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
>>>> eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.
>>>
>>> Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!
>>>
>>
>> To be fair, it has flown once. It got air-freighted to the convention
>> to suck in new orders
>
> I am so happy I did not order one! It was tempting to get such a light motor glider. After so many years of promises I am not sure there is hope for this glider at all. I feel sorry for the people who put money down. Shame on the manufacturer. I don't know what the guy is thinking, this sounds like a ponzi scheme.
>

Yep. Small, light weight, superlative performance, outstanding battery
run times, modest pricing for a motorglider. Almost sounded too good to
be true.

I feel sorry for people who put money down, but back in the old days,
they were offering big discounts for people to pay up front for the
glider. Sad to see people sell their old gliders to help pay for the
new one, then sit around for years for the new one that never seems to
show up.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 2:04:12 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> On 6/24/20 7:18 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> >> On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
> >>>> eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.
> >>>
> >>> Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!
> >>>
> >>
> >> To be fair, it has flown once. It got air-freighted to the convention
> >> to suck in new orders
> >
> > I am so happy I did not order one! It was tempting to get such a light motor glider. After so many years of promises I am not sure there is hope for this glider at all. I feel sorry for the people who put money down. Shame on the manufacturer. I don't know what the guy is thinking, this sounds like a ponzi scheme.
> >
>
> Yep. Small, light weight, superlative performance, outstanding battery
> run times, modest pricing for a motorglider. Almost sounded too good to
> be true.
>
> I feel sorry for people who put money down, but back in the old days,
> they were offering big discounts for people to pay up front for the
> glider. Sad to see people sell their old gliders to help pay for the
> new one, then sit around for years for the new one that never seems to
> show up.

Yes, there are people who paid full price years ago, and are still waiting to see their gliders. All that money is long gone, and unless new money shows up, the company will have a difficult time to find resources to produce anything. I was very interested in the glider, until they offered jumping the line with full price purchase. That was a red flag, right there! They say now, that they lost workerks. I can bet it was not due to COVID-19. Credit tightening is also happening in Poland, as it is in US, so I am not sure how they will find money to support their company. I wish them best, but I would not give them a dime, unless I see gliders rolling off the assembly line, and delivered in usable condition. No doubt, they have strong engineering minds, but that is probably where their skills end, unfortunately.

[2G]

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 3:31:36 PM UTC-7, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 2:04:12 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> > On 6/24/20 7:18 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> > >> On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
> > >>>> eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.
> > >>>
> > >>> Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> To be fair, it has flown once. It got air-freighted to the convention
> > >> to suck in new orders
> > >
> > > I am so happy I did not order one! It was tempting to get such a light motor glider. After so many years of promises I am not sure there is hope for this glider at all. I feel sorry for the people who put money down. Shame on the manufacturer. I don't know what the guy is thinking, this sounds like a ponzi scheme.
> > >
> >
> > Yep. Small, light weight, superlative performance, outstanding battery
> > run times, modest pricing for a motorglider. Almost sounded too good to
> > be true.
> >
> > I feel sorry for people who put money down, but back in the old days,
> > they were offering big discounts for people to pay up front for the
> > glider. Sad to see people sell their old gliders to help pay for the
> > new one, then sit around for years for the new one that never seems to
> > show up.
>
> Yes, there are people who paid full price years ago, and are still waiting to see their gliders. All that money is long gone, and unless new money shows up, the company will have a difficult time to find resources to produce anything. I was very interested in the glider, until they offered jumping the line with full price purchase. That was a red flag, right there! They say now, that they lost workerks. I can bet it was not due to COVID-19. Credit tightening is also happening in Poland, as it is in US, so I am not sure how they will find money to support their company. I wish them best, but I would not give them a dime, unless I see gliders rolling off the assembly line, and delivered in usable condition. No doubt, they have strong engineering minds, but that is probably where their skills end, unfortunately.

I found this photo of the GP-15 on GP Glider's Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/gpgliders/photos/pcb.2922297577827466/2922297261160831
It clearly shows the glider's registration number, OM-M901. A search for that registration yielded this:
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1253786
Obviously this is a totally different aircraft. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?

Tom

[[email protected]]

> Obviously this is a totally different aircraft. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?


The Viper picture is dated 2010, perhaps the number got recycled.

Where does one actually lookup the history for that registration?

[2G]

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:47:19 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 3:31:36 PM UTC-7, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 2:04:12 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> > > On 6/24/20 7:18 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:57:17 AM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> > > >> On 6/23/20 9:23 AM, Turkey Vulture wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Some owner? There's only been one delivered, and he's up to his
> > > >>>> eyeballs trying to get the thing flying.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Do tell, it was delivered unflyable??!!
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> To be fair, it has flown once. It got air-freighted to the convention
> > > >> to suck in new orders
> > > >
> > > > I am so happy I did not order one! It was tempting to get such a light motor glider. After so many years of promises I am not sure there is hope for this glider at all. I feel sorry for the people who put money down. Shame on the manufacturer. I don't know what the guy is thinking, this sounds like a ponzi scheme.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yep. Small, light weight, superlative performance, outstanding battery
> > > run times, modest pricing for a motorglider. Almost sounded too good to
> > > be true.
> > >
> > > I feel sorry for people who put money down, but back in the old days,
> > > they were offering big discounts for people to pay up front for the
> > > glider. Sad to see people sell their old gliders to help pay for the
> > > new one, then sit around for years for the new one that never seems to
> > > show up.
> >
> > Yes, there are people who paid full price years ago, and are still waiting to see their gliders. All that money is long gone, and unless new money shows up, the company will have a difficult time to find resources to produce anything. I was very interested in the glider, until they offered jumping the line with full price purchase. That was a red flag, right there! They say now, that they lost workerks. I can bet it was not due to COVID-19. Credit tightening is also happening in Poland, as it is in US, so I am not sure how they will find money to support their company. I wish them best, but I would not give them a dime, unless I see gliders rolling off the assembly line, and delivered in usable condition. No doubt, they have strong engineering minds, but that is probably where their skills end, unfortunately.
>
> I found this photo of the GP-15 on GP Glider's Facebook page:
> https://www.facebook.com/gpgliders/photos/pcb.2922297577827466/2922297261160831
> It clearly shows the glider's registration number, OM-M901. A search for that registration yielded this:
> https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1253786
> Obviously this is a totally different aircraft. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?
>
> Tom

BTW, OM is the prefix for Slovakia, not Poland (which is SP).

[2G]

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:52:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Obviously this is a totally different aircraft. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?
>
>
> The Viper picture is dated 2010, perhaps the number got recycled.
>
> Where does one actually lookup the history for that registration?

I don't think so; OM-M9xx is the registration series used by Viper Aircraft. OM-M901 was displayed recently at an exposition:
https://www.tomarkaero.com/en/34-presentation-events/163-exposition-in-hotel-carlton-bratislava.html

Tom

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 10:20:43 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> I'm expecting my GP15 to be at least a month delayed.

Huh? Say WHAT? When was delivery originally promised to you?

The following applies regardless of whether one discusses GP or other vendors.
I really do wish GP the best, might even have ordered one except I already
have too many electric-powered gliders (maybe someday I'll get it flying again,
after most recent failure in March, after repairing prior failure last fall).
Anyway...

Eric, you were an engineer, right?
When I was just a baby engineer (IIRC 1973, working in Brussels),
my boss taught me about the projected-delay curve.
Presumably you were similarly taught?

A projected-delay curve is very simple.
Y-axis is projected delay (say, expected months to completion).
X-axis is just time (say in months).
A perfectly planned project gives a line descending at 45 degrees,
so that the projected delay reaches 0 (completion) at the time originally planned.

As an engineer, I would do projected delay curves on:
- time promised til first promised customer delivery
- time promised til my delivery

Eric, you've had some training and exposure to finance, no??
So, calculate or estimate to 10%-20%:
- amount of cash taken in by company from deposits
- cost (break-even) to pay for fabrication of a glider
Now ask or find out from public financial records their approximate cash-on-hand.
Does it permit producing prepaid orders?

Eric, you were an engineer, right?
So you know things go wrong. 'cause, ya-know, "How hard can it be?" precedes...
Now, given that things go wrong, as engineers we plan for that right?
That means designing in adequate diagnostic basic indicators (blinky LEDs)
and logs, easily accessible by the customer.
Applies to all kinds of products, right?
When first Antares showed up and the logs weren't accessible,
I added a feature so customer could easily pull logs onto USB stick.
At least the logs already EXISTED, but the factory failed to make this easy.
Now, how come its not immediately determined what happened to the first GP delivery?

Again, I wish GP all the best.
But when one asks these questions, its a serious thing.
I saw first-hand when I did the OSTIV talk, pilots looking annoyed,
and not raising their hands when I asked how many had a particular problem,
when I could see many in the audience I knew had had the problem.
Guys, I'm not calling your wife ugly.
Heaven forbid, I'm not even calling your girlfriend ugly!
Brand-loyalty is one thing, but this is a bit silly.

Eric, would you care to do the above analysis and share it?
Its a serious question and NOT an attack.
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Tell Jan I think she's cute ;-)


* The projected-delay curve has been approximately re-invented numerous
times with trendy names like "burn-down chart"...
** Typical decently-managed projects show projected-delay curves with
more-or-less constant slope worse than 45 degrees. That tells you the
estimation process is consistently flawed by the same degree, but things
are NOT wildly out of control.
**B) Some decades ago, a buddy was working at a large aerospace co on
a large DARPA/NASA funded project. He complained to me about unrealistic
estimates, and I explained above. He then posted and regularly updated a
projected-delay graph outside his cubicle, for each major milestone,
all showing a rather depressing but flat curve. Senior management got wind
and dressed him down and demanded he remove it! Big Offense!!!
Right before project was cancelled for repeated budget overruns.
*** When projected-delay line flattens or increases, you are truly F'd.

[Mike N.]

Eric,
Why do you care what these guys think anyway?

It was your decision to make the investment and you sound like you knew the potential risks going in.

So who gives a ****e what anyone of the above detractors think?

In the end only time will tell if you made a good decision. You've indicated based on your experience you are currently ok continuing to wait. And as it's your money it's really no one else's business, even if it doesn't work out.

Certainly some parts of the more rational portions of the discussion above are worthwhile to caution other potential investors.

Personally I hope things do move forward for you. It would be great to see this glider get into production. However only time will tell, everything is pure speculation.

[2G]

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 6:30:18 PM UTC-7, Mike N. wrote:
> Eric,
> Why do you care what these guys think anyway?
>
> It was your decision to make the investment and you sound like you knew the potential risks going in.
>
> So who gives a ****e what anyone of the above detractors think?
>
> In the end only time will tell if you made a good decision. You've indicated based on your experience you are currently ok continuing to wait. And as it's your money it's really no one else's business, even if it doesn't work out.
>
> Certainly some parts of the more rational portions of the discussion above are worthwhile to caution other potential investors.
>
> Personally I hope things do move forward for you. It would be great to see this glider get into production. However only time will tell, everything is pure speculation.

"Only time will tell" is the last refuge of a scoundrel - there are a lot of red flags visible right now about the GP-15 that make me shudder. The registration issue itself is a huge one. And a business that must finance itself off of its customers is a poorly run business.

Tom

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dave Nadler wrote on 6/27/2020 6:07 PM:
> On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 10:20:43 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> I'm expecting my GP15 to be at least a month delayed.
>
> Huh? Say WHAT? When was delivery originally promised to you?
>
> The following applies regardless of whether one discusses GP or other vendors.
> I really do wish GP the best, might even have ordered one except I already
> have too many electric-powered gliders (maybe someday I'll get it flying again,
> after most recent failure in March, after repairing prior failure last fall).
> Anyway...

The "at least a month delayed" was from whatever delivery date would have been
achieved before the corona virus shutdowns in Poland and countries were the
factory has supplier. I know glider delivery dates, especially for new models from
any manufacturer, tend to drift into the future.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Jim White[_3_]]

At 03:27 28 June 2020, 2G wrote:
And a business that must finance itself off of its customers is a poorly
run business.
>
I think most business schools would say that a business that can get its
customers to pay up front is brilliant! Cash is king.

Jim

[kinsell]

On 6/28/20 4:23 AM, Jim White wrote:
> At 03:27 28 June 2020, 2G wrote:
> And a business that must finance itself off of its customers is a poorly
> run business.
>>
> I think most business schools would say that a business that can get its
> customers to pay up front is brilliant! Cash is king.
>
> Jim
>

Certainly! If you can get people to pay up front, then never deliver
the product, it dramatically improves the profit margin. Roofers have
been using that strategy for years.

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 12:17:49 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> I know glider delivery dates, especially for new models from
> any manufacturer, tend to drift into the future.

So they do.
I've waited on average some years after initial "promises".
Only once had one show up ~on time (even a bit early).
Don't sell the current glider until the new one is on the boat!
Of course, if getting a motorglider, you need a spare glider anyway...

[[email protected]]

https://www.edkilbourne.com/lyrics---cloudbase.html

Look up Ed Kilbourne's "The New Glider Blues" (aka "The LS-22 Song") if you think delays are a new phenomenon...

[kinsell]

On 6/29/20 1:06 PM, wrote:
> https://www.edkilbourne.com/lyrics---cloudbase.html
>
> Look up Ed Kilbourne's "The New Glider Blues" (aka "The LS-22 Song") if you think delays are a new phenomenon...
>

It's not just the delays. How many times can you tell a customer his
glider is coming out of the molds next week? After a couple years, that
line starts to wear thin.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before, than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither financially nor flying wise.
Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly around for few years and are available for resale.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

Out of curiosity has anyone heard of the status of the AS-34 or perhaps placed an order for one? While it may not have the claimed performance of a GP15 at least its from a manufacturer with a long track record of building sailplanes.

[kinsell]

On 6/29/20 4:21 PM, Ramy wrote:
> Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before, than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither financially nor flying wise.
> Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly around for few years and are available for resale.
>
> Ramy
>


Not necessarily to pay a deposit. GP was offering discounts for paying
upfront for the gliders. Everyone loves a discount, right? For someone
wanting to move up to a motorglider and marginally able to afford it,
they might think selling the existing glider and taking the discount was
a good idea. In hindsight, they probably wouldn't do it again.

Nadler says to wait until the new glider is on the boat before selling
the old one. Maybe good enough for a mainline vendor, but with certain
less established vendors, maybe should wait until it's on the boat,
delivered, CoA issued, and half a dozen test flights under your belt.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

kinsell wrote on 6/29/2020 4:15 PM:
> On 6/29/20 4:21 PM, Ramy wrote:
>> Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a glider
>> which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even with the most
>> established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you really must sell your
>> glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many great used gliders in like new
>> conditions out there which you can buy instantly. If you really want a brand new
>> glider you never seen before, than you should be able to afford the financial
>> risk and be able to keep your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense
>> neither financially nor flying wise.
>> Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly around for
>> few years and are available for resale.
>>
>> Ramy
>>
>
>
> Not necessarily to pay a deposit.* GP was offering discounts for paying upfront
> for the gliders.* Everyone loves a discount, right?* For someone wanting to move
> up to a motorglider and marginally able to afford it, they might think selling the
> existing glider and taking the discount was a good idea.* In hindsight, they
> probably wouldn't do it again.
>
> Nadler says to wait until the new glider is on the boat before selling the old
> one.* Maybe good enough for a mainline vendor, but with certain less established
> vendors, maybe should wait until it's on the boat, delivered, CoA issued, and half
> a dozen test flights under your belt.

Perhaps a good plan if your glider is number 5 or less; after that, you have some
history to aid your "sell" decision. Mine number is 12 or so, so there will be a
track record before mine is even on the boat.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 23:14 29 June 2020, wrote:
>Out of curiosity has anyone heard of the status of the AS-34 or perhaps
>placed an order for one? While it may not have the claimed performance
of
>a GP15 at least its from a manufacturer with a long track record of
>building sailplanes.
>
>https://www.facebook.com/107890584053920/photos/pcb.16854434465
5210/168539894655655/?type=3&theater

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 23:14 29 June 2020, wrote:
>Out of curiosity has anyone heard of the status of the AS-34 or perhaps
>placed an order for one? While it may not have the claimed performance
of
>a GP15 at least its from a manufacturer with a long track record of
>building sailplanes.
>
>https://www.facebook.com/107890584053920/photos/pcb.16854434465
5210/168539894655655/?type=3&theater

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 10:27 30 June 2020, Paul T wrote:
>At 23:14 29 June 2020, wrote:
>>Out of curiosity has anyone heard of the status of the AS-34 or perhaps
>>placed an order for one? While it may not have the claimed
performance
>of
>>a GP15 at least its from a manufacturer with a long track record of
>>building sailplanes.
>>
>>https://www.facebook.com/107890584053920/photos/pcb.1685443446
5
>5210/168539894655655/?type=3&theater
>
>

I'd go for a JS3RES or JS4RES personally.........if I had the money.

[kinsell]

On 6/29/20 10:01 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> kinsell wrote on 6/29/2020 4:15 PM:
>> On 6/29/20 4:21 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>> Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
>>> glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are
>>> even with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that?
>>> If you really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used
>>> glider. So many great used gliders in like new conditions out there
>>> which you can buy instantly. If you really want a brand new glider
>>> you never seen before, than you should be able to afford the
>>> financial risk and be able to keep your glider meanwhile. Otherwise
>>> it does not make sense neither financially nor flying wise.
>>> Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
>>> around for few years and are available for resale.
>>>
>>> Ramy
>>>
>>
>>
>> Not necessarily to pay a deposit.Â* GP was offering discounts for
>> paying upfront for the gliders.Â* Everyone loves a discount, right?
>> For someone wanting to move up to a motorglider and marginally able to
>> afford it, they might think selling the existing glider and taking the
>> discount was a good idea.Â* In hindsight, they probably wouldn't do it
>> again.
>>
>> Nadler says to wait until the new glider is on the boat before selling
>> the old one.Â* Maybe good enough for a mainline vendor, but with
>> certain less established vendors, maybe should wait until it's on the
>> boat, delivered, CoA issued, and half a dozen test flights under your
>> belt.
>
> Perhaps a good plan if your glider is number 5 or less; after that, you
> have some history to aid your "sell" decision. Mine number is 12 or so,
> so there will be a track record before mine is even on the boat.
>


Whoa!! The November article said the order book in the U.S. stood at
23, and that must have been written in about September. I personally
know four people who placed orders, and i don't get out much.

Raul has said he is 12-15th-ish, and he placed his order May 2017.
Unless you've been keeping a secret for a number of years, there's no
way you're really #12. Unless you paid a bunch of money to jump the line.

I smell something rotten in Denmark. Or should I say Korczyna?

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

kinsell wrote on 6/30/2020 5:50 AM:
> On 6/29/20 10:01 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> kinsell wrote on 6/29/2020 4:15 PM:
>>> On 6/29/20 4:21 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>>> Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a glider
>>>> which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even with the most
>>>> established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you really must sell your
>>>> glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many great used gliders in like
>>>> new conditions out there which you can buy instantly. If you really want a
>>>> brand new glider you never seen before, than you should be able to afford the
>>>> financial risk and be able to keep your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does
>>>> not make sense neither financially nor flying wise.
>>>> Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly around
>>>> for few years and are available for resale.
>>>>
>>>> Ramy
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not necessarily to pay a deposit.* GP was offering discounts for paying upfront
>>> for the gliders.* Everyone loves a discount, right? For someone wanting to move
>>> up to a motorglider and marginally able to afford it, they might think selling
>>> the existing glider and taking the discount was a good idea.* In hindsight,
>>> they probably wouldn't do it again.
>>>
>>> Nadler says to wait until the new glider is on the boat before selling the old
>>> one.* Maybe good enough for a mainline vendor, but with certain less
>>> established vendors, maybe should wait until it's on the boat, delivered, CoA
>>> issued, and half a dozen test flights under your belt.
>>
>> Perhaps a good plan if your glider is number 5 or less; after that, you have
>> some history to aid your "sell" decision. Mine number is 12 or so, so there will
>> be a track record before mine is even on the boat.
>>
>
>
> Whoa!!* The November article said the order book in the U.S. stood at 23, and that
> must have been written in about September.* I personally know four people who
> placed orders, and i don't get out much.
>
> Raul has said he is 12-15th-ish, and he placed his order May 2017. Unless you've
> been keeping a secret for a number of years, there's no way you're really #12.
> Unless you paid a bunch of money to jump the line.
>
> I smell something rotten in Denmark.* Or should I say Korczyna?

The numbering is just a guess, as the contract is by date, not serial number.
Raul's glider is scheduled about 3 or 4 months ahead of mine. The important point
is there will be a delivery history to guide me when it's time to think of selling
the ASH26E.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[kinsell]

On 6/30/20 7:07 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> kinsell wrote on 6/30/2020 5:50 AM:
>> On 6/29/20 10:01 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> kinsell wrote on 6/29/2020 4:15 PM:
>>>> On 6/29/20 4:21 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>>>> Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on
>>>>> a glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are
>>>>> even with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that?
>>>>> If you really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used
>>>>> glider. So many great used gliders in like new conditions out there
>>>>> which you can buy instantly. If you really want a brand new glider
>>>>> you never seen before, than you should be able to afford the
>>>>> financial risk and be able to keep your glider meanwhile. Otherwise
>>>>> it does not make sense neither financially nor flying wise.
>>>>> Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they
>>>>> fly around for few years and are available for resale.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ramy
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not necessarily to pay a deposit.Â* GP was offering discounts for
>>>> paying upfront for the gliders.Â* Everyone loves a discount, right?
>>>> For someone wanting to move up to a motorglider and marginally able
>>>> to afford it, they might think selling the existing glider and
>>>> taking the discount was a good idea.Â* In hindsight, they probably
>>>> wouldn't do it again.
>>>>
>>>> Nadler says to wait until the new glider is on the boat before
>>>> selling the old one.Â* Maybe good enough for a mainline vendor, but
>>>> with certain less established vendors, maybe should wait until it's
>>>> on the boat, delivered, CoA issued, and half a dozen test flights
>>>> under your belt.
>>>
>>> Perhaps a good plan if your glider is number 5 or less; after that,
>>> you have some history to aid your "sell" decision. Mine number is 12
>>> or so, so there will be a track record before mine is even on the boat.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Whoa!!Â* The November article said the order book in the U.S. stood at
>> 23, and that must have been written in about September.Â* I personally
>> know four people who placed orders, and i don't get out much.
>>
>> Raul has said he is 12-15th-ish, and he placed his order May 2017.
>> Unless you've been keeping a secret for a number of years, there's no
>> way you're really #12. Unless you paid a bunch of money to jump the line.
>>
>> I smell something rotten in Denmark.Â* Or should I say Korczyna?
>
> The numbering is just a guess, as the contract is by date, not serial
> number. Raul's glider is scheduled about 3 or 4 months ahead of mine.
> The important point is there will be a delivery history to guide me when
> it's time to think of selling the ASH26E.
>

Unfortunately schedules don't actually mean anything with GP. Raul
thought he was going to get a glider in 2018, and that didn't happen.
Then he thought he was going to get something in spring/summer of 2019,
and that didn't happen. I'm sure he believes he'll be getting something
in 2020, but even before the virus reared its head, there's no chance
that was going to happen.

He has described himself as a "Jeta owner", he'll just have to be happy
with that for the foreseeable future.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 6/27/2020 7:47 AM:
..
..
..
>
> I found this photo of the GP-15 on GP Glider's Facebook page:
> https://www.facebook.com/gpgliders/photos/pcb.2922297577827466/2922297261160831
> It clearly shows the glider's registration number, OM-M901. A search for that registration yielded this:
> https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1253786
> Obviously this is a totally different aircraft. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?
>
> Tom
>
I queried the US dealer (Tom Holloran), and the factory replied OM-M901 was
available when they needed a registration number, it was used for the glider while
it was in Poland, and they deregistered the glider when it was shipped to the US,
so the number is now available again. The US owner confirms he received a
deregistration document, and the glider is now registered in the US.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Tuesday, June 30, 2020 at 6:26:35 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 6/27/2020 7:47 AM:
> .
> .
> .
> >
> > I found this photo of the GP-15 on GP Glider's Facebook page:
> > https://www.facebook.com/gpgliders/photos/pcb.2922297577827466/2922297261160831
> > It clearly shows the glider's registration number, OM-M901. A search for that registration yielded this:
> > https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1253786
> > Obviously this is a totally different aircraft. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?
> >
> > Tom
> >
> I queried the US dealer (Tom Holloran), and the factory replied OM-M901 was
> available when they needed a registration number, it was used for the glider while
> it was in Poland, and they deregistered the glider when it was shipped to the US,
> so the number is now available again. The US owner confirms he received a
> deregistration document, and the glider is now registered in the US.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

That number is not a Polish aircraft number - it is a Slovakian number which is assigned to another aircraft. The answer doesn't make sense.

Tom

[Emir Sherbi]

Diana sailplanes also register their prototype there. Apparently polish authority is worst than Slovenia/Slovakia/Czech...

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 6:24:52 AM UTC+2, Emir Sherbi wrote:
> Diana sailplanes also register their prototype there. Apparently polish authority is worst than Slovenia/Slovakia/Czech...

[citation needed]

All the Diana 2's (NG and original) I am aware of were registered in Poland as either type certified gliders or ultralights, and the prototype Diana 3 (formerly KKB-18) was built and registered in the Czech Republic.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 6:24:52 AM UTC+2, Emir Sherbi wrote:
> Diana sailplanes also register their prototype there. Apparently polish authority is worst than Slovenia/Slovakia/Czech...

[citation needed]

All the Diana 2's (NG and original) I am aware of were registered in Poland as either type certified gliders or ultralights, and the prototype Diana 3 (formerly KKB-18) was built and registered in the Czech Republic.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 6/30/2020 9:09 PM:
> On Tuesday, June 30, 2020 at 6:26:35 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> 2G wrote on 6/27/2020 7:47 AM:
>> .
>> .
>> .
>>>
>>> I found this photo of the GP-15 on GP Glider's Facebook page:
>>> https://www.facebook.com/gpgliders/photos/pcb.2922297577827466/2922297261160831
>>> It clearly shows the glider's registration number, OM-M901. A search for that registration yielded this:
>>> https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1253786
>>> Obviously this is a totally different aircraft. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>> I queried the US dealer (Tom Holloran), and the factory replied OM-M901 was
>> available when they needed a registration number, it was used for the glider while
>> it was in Poland, and they deregistered the glider when it was shipped to the US,
>> so the number is now available again. The US owner confirms he received a
>> deregistration document, and the glider is now registered in the US.
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> That number is not a Polish aircraft number - it is a Slovakian number which is assigned to another aircraft. The answer doesn't make sense.

I should have said "while the factory owned the glider", rather than "when it was
in Poland". I don't know who had the number before they did, or if anyone has it
now. Their explanation seems credible enough to me.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Tom BravoMike]

>
> That number is not a Polish aircraft number - it is a Slovakian number which is assigned to another aircraft. The answer doesn't make sense.
>
> Tom

It's quite common in Europe to have aircraft and vehicles registered in another country where red tape and/or fees are less onerous; not to mention sea vessels. The world does not end in the US (where every state imposes its own drivers licenses, for example). This thread in the 'investigation' against the GP doesn't lead anywhere.

[Tim Taylor]

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 9:09:14 PM UTC-6, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> >
> > That number is not a Polish aircraft number - it is a Slovakian number which is assigned to another aircraft. The answer doesn't make sense.
> >
> > Tom
> It's quite common in Europe to have aircraft and vehicles registered in another country where red tape and/or fees are less onerous; not to mention sea vessels. The world does not end in the US (where every state imposes its own drivers licenses, for example). This thread in the 'investigation' against the GP doesn't lead anywhere.

Report's are showing the GP15 with "new wings" is now being flight tested against the Polish team Diana 2, RP. As I had always thought, they look nearly identical in flight. I hope they can get the glider into production and begin to make deliveries. I have been optimistic that the company would begin to focus and produce the glider rather than trying to do too many different models of gliders and a trailer too. I think the concept of a light 15m glider using modern materials and manufacturing is excellent, but they have to deliver. The experience with the first US delivered glider has not helped their reputation.

[2G]

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:42:04 AM UTC-7, Tim Taylor wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 9:09:14 PM UTC-6, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > >
> > > That number is not a Polish aircraft number - it is a Slovakian number which is assigned to another aircraft. The answer doesn't make sense.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > It's quite common in Europe to have aircraft and vehicles registered in another country where red tape and/or fees are less onerous; not to mention sea vessels. The world does not end in the US (where every state imposes its own drivers licenses, for example). This thread in the 'investigation' against the GP doesn't lead anywhere.
>
> Report's are showing the GP15 with "new wings" is now being flight tested against the Polish team Diana 2, RP. As I had always thought, they look nearly identical in flight. I hope they can get the glider into production and begin to make deliveries. I have been optimistic that the company would begin to focus and produce the glider rather than trying to do too many different models of gliders and a trailer too. I think the concept of a light 15m glider using modern materials and manufacturing is excellent, but they have to deliver. The experience with the first US delivered glider has not helped their reputation.

What "reports" are you referring to?

Tom

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 9/15/2020 8:03 PM:
> On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:42:04 AM UTC-7, Tim Taylor wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 1, 2020 at 9:09:14 PM UTC-6, Tom BravoMike wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That number is not a Polish aircraft number - it is a Slovakian number which is assigned to another aircraft. The answer doesn't make sense.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>> It's quite common in Europe to have aircraft and vehicles registered in another country where red tape and/or fees are less onerous; not to mention sea vessels. The world does not end in the US (where every state imposes its own drivers licenses, for example). This thread in the 'investigation' against the GP doesn't lead anywhere.
>>
>> Report's are showing the GP15 with "new wings" is now being flight tested against the Polish team Diana 2, RP. As I had always thought, they look nearly identical in flight. I hope they can get the glider into production and begin to make deliveries. I have been optimistic that the company would begin to focus and produce the glider rather than trying to do too many different models of gliders and a trailer too. I think the concept of a light 15m glider using modern materials and manufacturing is excellent, but they have to deliver. The experience with the first US delivered glider has not helped their reputation.
>
> What "reports" are you referring to?

They are on the company's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/gpgliders

Tom Holloran, the US GP dealer, told me the wings being tested are not the latest
version that will be used in production, but the previous version without the
latest winglet and root fairing designs. Flight testing is not complete, and there
are currently no official reports.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1