Flying IFR in a glider

[Charles Longley]

I am in Twisp, WA right now. Some of my friends got up into a wave and easily made it to 18,000’. There is no wave window right close by.
My question is can someone in a glider get an IFR clearance to go above 180? Assuming they have an Instrument rating and the glider is appropriately equipped.

[[email protected]]

A controller can't approve such a request without sticking their neck way out.

Get in touch with the facility (Seattle Center?) and work out a window. You can use other LOAs to make a draft. Window should be clear of both low- and high-altitude airways if possible.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 6/27/2020 4:28 AM:
> A controller can't approve such a request without sticking their neck way out.
>
> Get in touch with the facility (Seattle Center?) and work out a window. You can use other LOAs to make a draft. Window should be clear of both low- and high-altitude airways if possible.
>
Years ago (20?), it was possible to get "individual LOAs" with a Center, that
would allow you to request a block of airspace above 18K. It did not not require
an IFR rating. Sterling Starr had one for the Montana area, and I had one for the
Washington area. I used it so infrequently, I let it lapse. It's a flexible
solution for the individual pilot, if it's still available.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 4:28:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> A controller can't approve such a request without sticking their neck way out.
>
> Get in touch with the facility (Seattle Center?) and work out a window. You can use other LOAs to make a draft. Window should be clear of both low- and high-altitude airways if possible.

He would need to contact the Spokane FSDO.

Tom

[AS]

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:17:16 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> wrote on 6/27/2020 4:28 AM:
> > A controller can't approve such a request without sticking their neck way out.
> >
> > Get in touch with the facility (Seattle Center?) and work out a window. You can use other LOAs to make a draft. Window should be clear of both low- and high-altitude airways if possible.
> >
> Years ago (20?), it was possible to get "individual LOAs" with a Center, that
> would allow you to request a block of airspace above 18K. It did not not require
> an IFR rating. Sterling Starr had one for the Montana area, and I had one for the
> Washington area. I used it so infrequently, I let it lapse. It's a flexible
> solution for the individual pilot, if it's still available.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

That's apparently still possible! A friend of mine who flies out of a small airport in CO has a LoA with Denver and he gets regularly cleared to FL230 or FL250. As a commercial airline pilot, he knows of course whom to contact and all the right phraseology.

Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

Never seen a wave LOA that had anything to do with FSDO. ATC and operator are the signatories.

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

Why would a controller be sticking his neck out? If the glider is IFR equipped (very few are) and the pilot is IFR rated and current, why would an IFR flight not be permitted?

[5Z]

Gordon Boettger has made several long cross country flights in class A
airspace. Here's one:
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=5835349

Also a number of wave XC flights up and down the Owens Valley.
South of Bishop, they have a LOA to use the R2508 restricted area
https://www.edwards.af.mil/About/R-2508/
but to the north they fly with a clearance in class A.
Some of Dennis Tito's flights were like this:
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightbook.html?sp=2017&st=olcp&rt=olc&pi=45222

Tom

[Charles Longley]

Yeah I don’t see any rule against it. I might set up my glider for IFR. Seems like the chances to go above 180 are usually happenstance without a wave window close by.

[[email protected]]

If you file a flight plan in advance (GLID is the type) to a destination with an enroute delay at an easily-defined location that is clear of established routes, have at it.

The distance flights mentioned were coordinated with ATC in advance.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Charles Longley wrote on 6/27/2020 9:53 PM:
> Yeah I don’t see any rule against it. I might set up my glider for IFR. Seems like the chances to go above 180 are usually happenstance without a wave window close by.
>
A major feature is the ability to go cross-country, not possible within the
confines of a wave window. At the time I got mine, there was no IFR requirement
for the pilot or the glider, but it did require a transponder; possibly, they'd
require ADSB now, but I'm guessing.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Charles Longley]

No problem I am putting both in this fall. I’ll probably look at some time of artificial horizon as well.

You down in Nephi Eric? We’re having fun in Twisp!

[[email protected]]

Charlie,

Now that activity in the Methow Valley is becoming more common, we should totally negotiate a new wave window for that area. The SGC has a number of windows pre-defined across the cascades. Seems like it would be a good idea to add one up north in the Twisp area as well.

Then others can partake in the experience as well and not need IFR equipment or ratings.

-Kevin

[[email protected]]

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 9:54:07 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> I am in Twisp, WA right now. Some of my friends got up into a wave and easily made it to 18,000’. There is no wave window right close by.
> My question is can someone in a glider get an IFR clearance to go above 180? Assuming they have an Instrument rating and the glider is appropriately equipped.

Charles:
There are a couple of options.
The options are all dependent on the pilot choice and certificate, the equipment in the glider, recent experience and LOAs, or not.

For the simplest, if the pilot and machine are equipped and current, and you know for what you ask, with correct phraseology, ATC may give you lots of freedom.
Keyword - MAY. Or may not. It's their discretion.
And once you are "with them", you have to comply, or play the 'unable' card,
or communicate well and negotiate well, and succeed.
(Success in my book means no enforcement action.)


There is wave flying involving being mostly stationary and climbing.
That's the common view and use of "Wave Window" LOAs.
The LOA creates a chimney of airspace and all other IFR Class A traffic
is typically separated from that airspace. All users inside that chimney are VMC providing their own separation. The equipment, communications and protocol are all dependent on that particular LOA. Mode C or not, Radio or not, etc.

Then there is XC in wave in Class A.
This is a whole additional layer of complexity.
There are ATC geographic and radio handoff considerations, each ATC facility may have a different idea of what LOA they will create with you. It is hugely dependent on your topography and the neighborhood IFR traffic.

Henry Combs wanted to set the US straight distance record (and distance to Goal) by beginning in Sierra Wave and transitioning easterly with the front, AZ mountains, NM mountains, into central states and thermalling to an eventual landing. Despite LOAs, confirming by phone on ground to each ATC along the way, he got the door slammed on his flights several times, by a controller unwilling to cooperate with a legal user.
(You wanna do what? I don't have to give you that.)

We created segmented blocks up the Sierras, from Cal City to BIH, to have stepping stones that allow ATC to route that IFR traffic around the glider, without alienating the airliners. When the military is hot, we have a different LOA to allow joint use, accepting the risk of being inhaled by a jet, in a Restricted Area. Just north of BIH, the airspace is assigned to Oakland Center.

Based on the years of good history (read that as ZERO glider pilot screwups) with Joshua Approach, Tito had asked Oakland Center for an LOA for Class A access for record pursuits. That LOA was granted. The LOA permits
Mode C, radio equipped, Instrument rated pilots to fly VMC in Class A on a
block altitude assignment. ATC can see the traffic, keep IFR machinery from touching VMC gliders.

This procedure requires more education on the part of the typical recreational soaring pilot than they are sometimes willing to invest. I have helped with LOAs for different locations, and situations. I have trained many pilots for using the Joshua Approach letters I hold, and many other pilots have gone on to ask for a duplicate individual LOA based on that history.

https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=5049937#comment

I just hope that the glider pilots who seek this relationship with ATC help keep the record of flight safety and compliance just as clean. I want this privilege to continue for another 40 years. The views are magnificent. And really, there isn't that much traffic up there.....

Anybody watching 'AC' flying on the SSA tracker today? Another speed record falling to the Nixus (while flying on these Caracole LOAs I am mentioning).
It isn't really a Ventus doing that track today!

Can you do IFR clearances in a glider? Yes. Just do them correctly.
Sometimes lives depend on that.

Fly safely.

Cindy Brickner
SSA Airspace Committee

writercindyb at the G-really big mail .com

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Charles Longley wrote on 6/28/2020 10:35 AM:
> No problem I am putting both in this fall. I’ll probably look at some time of artificial horizon as well.
>
> You down in Nephi Eric? We’re having fun in Twisp!
>
I and several other pilots were at Richfield, UT - check the OLC.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Charles Longley]

Ahh I see that now. Very nice flight!

[Charles Longley]

Cindy,

Thanks for the info. I am a professional pilot and won’t mess it up for others.

Charlie

[Waveguru]

I had the FAA come after me after a flight to 24K over Mt. Hood in a wave window. I was completely legal, but they called me up and said I wasn't, and that I had to prove to them that I was legal. I said that's not the way it works. I'm innocent until proven guilty. They were completely clueless.. It went on for months. I could not believe they didn't know their own regulations and I had to give them several hints as to where they needed to look to see how I was right and they were WRONG! They never apologized or anything....

Boggs