liability insurance

[Morris Carter]

Any ideas on liability insurance for older pilots that can't get glider
insurance.

[[email protected]]

I foolishly didn’t renew my policy with Costello a few years back, thought it might be time to hang it up. The next year I found out almost nobody would insure a pilot over 80 years old. Costello turned me down initially, but finally did reinsure me. I believe because they are SSA’s group insurers and didn’t want to take a chance on loosing the group?
JJ

[[email protected]]

I apologize if my reply sounds insensitive. It's a limitation of these forums. Every year in this country we have mystery crashes that don't add up. Our group insurance pays for too many senior moments. I've witnessed crashes and close calls with pilots who don't belong on a golf cart. Even if a pilot has the mental capacity to learn from mistakes and has good situational awareness, advanced age makes us more vulnerable to fatigue and incapacitation from things like heat, etc.
A good friend flew a tow plane through power lines a year ago, broke his back and died 8 months later. He was 80, retired airline and Airforce pilot. He was a great stick and never bent an airplane until the end. It was the end of a hot day and he was asked to do "just one more." I was asked to investigate the accident on behalf of the club. (Too much to go into), but while descending he had the airplane loaded up in a steep turn to come down faster. The combination of heat, g-load, recent heavy meal, and end of day tiredness caused him to experience tunel vision and the sensation of being a passenger as he flew the length of the 3000 foot runway with the flaps up. He started the go-around about 300 feet from the wires. This shouldn't be his legacy and doesn't have to be yours. The irony is about 20 years ago he was on the board of the club when they implemented the "Golden Eagles" program/policy. At the time pilots over 80 HAD to fly with another pilot. He even had to have "the talk" with his glider partner who at the time was over 80 and was becoming problematic. As the club/board experienced turn over the policy was removed from the rules and regs and became forgotten.
If you are fortunate enough to be able bodied in your 80's I'm envious. In my family we dont make it out of our 70's. I don't know when my last flight will be, but I regret not having "the talk" with my friend.
Before all 9000 SSA/AARP members chime in with anger and denial, I'll remind you that you can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

[son_of_flubber]

>>Our group insurance pays for too many senior moments.

A friend of mine had two senior moments.

The first was the last time he flew as a CFI. Glider landed short of the runway. No major damage or injury. Cessation of instruction did not go far enough.

The second was the last time that he flew as a tow pilot. Extensive damage to glider and towplane and surprisingly no injuries.

The insurance rates went up and due to other glider accidents in the region, there was/is a possibility of the policy being cancelled.

[Dan Marotta]

How can you say that your friend experienced tunnel vision unless he
said it over the radio?Â* I have many other problems with your statement
but I don't deny that some folks just aren't as sharp as they used to
be.Â* I think it's more related to condition than to age, however.

I hope to fly well into my 80s but then I'm fortunate to have had both
parents live well into their 90s.Â* But that doesn't mean I'll get there
nor does it mean that I won't live to be 100.Â* I only hope that, when
it's time for me to hang up my spurs, I'll have the good sense to do
so.Â* Failing that, I hope someone will have "the talk" with me.

That said, at the ripe young age of 72, I'm happily conducting Phase I
flight testing on a gyro plane that I built from a kit.Â* And what a hoot
it is!

On 7/2/2020 5:56 PM, wrote:
> I apologize if my reply sounds insensitive. It's a limitation of these forums. Every year in this country we have mystery crashes that don't add up. Our group insurance pays for too many senior moments. I've witnessed crashes and close calls with pilots who don't belong on a golf cart. Even if a pilot has the mental capacity to learn from mistakes and has good situational awareness, advanced age makes us more vulnerable to fatigue and incapacitation from things like heat, etc.
> A good friend flew a tow plane through power lines a year ago, broke his back and died 8 months later. He was 80, retired airline and Airforce pilot. He was a great stick and never bent an airplane until the end. It was the end of a hot day and he was asked to do "just one more." I was asked to investigate the accident on behalf of the club. (Too much to go into), but while descending he had the airplane loaded up in a steep turn to come down faster. The combination of heat, g-load, recent heavy meal, and end of day tiredness caused him to experience tunel vision and the sensation of being a passenger as he flew the length of the 3000 foot runway with the flaps up. He started the go-around about 300 feet from the wires. This shouldn't be his legacy and doesn't have to be yours. The irony is about 20 years ago he was on the board of the club when they implemented the "Golden Eagles" program/policy. At the time pilots over 80 HAD to fly with another pilot. He even had to have "the talk" with his glider partner who at the time was over 80 and was becoming problematic. As the club/board experienced turn over the policy was removed from the rules and regs and became forgotten.
> If you are fortunate enough to be able bodied in your 80's I'm envious. In my family we dont make it out of our 70's. I don't know when my last flight will be, but I regret not having "the talk" with my friend.
> Before all 9000 SSA/AARP members chime in with anger and denial, I'll remind you that you can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

How can I say that he had tunnel vision if he didn't say it over the radio?"
<-He told me while I was visiting him at the rehabilitation center."
"I have many problems with your statement."
<- Take your time and sound out the big words. It's important that we take care of our most senior members and help them transition from flying when it's no longer safe for them to fly.
Take care.

[Scott Williams[_2_]]

On Friday, July 3, 2020 at 6:22:43 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> How can I say that he had tunnel vision if he didn't say it over the radio?"
> <-He told me while I was visiting him at the rehabilitation center."
> "I have many problems with your statement."
> <- Take your time and sound out the big words. It's important that we take care of our most senior members and help them transition from flying when it's no longer safe for them to fly.
> Take care.

As I get older, I find I have trouble with memory and understanding what I read.
Often I am given to presenting My opinion with out really understanding to conversation or statements of others. Usually it's because of some hearing loss.
But I had to reread "died 8 months later" to grasp the rest of the original post meaning.
Thanks for sharing dtarm,
Scott

[kinsell]

On 7/2/20 7:22 AM, wrote:
> I foolishly didn’t renew my policy with Costello a few years back, thought it might be time to hang it up. The next year I found out almost nobody would insure a pilot over 80 years old. Costello turned me down initially, but finally did reinsure me. I believe because they are SSA’s group insurers and didn’t want to take a chance on loosing the group?
> JJ
>

When I got into motorgliders a while back, I was told by Costello that
they wouldn't have provided coverage if I was over 60 when i started.
Wasn't an issue for me, but was surprised that they would add that
restriction to someone who was a very long term customer with a good
claims history.

With the newfound popularity of motorgliders, wonder how many others are
going to get surprised like that? I haven't checked to see if that's
still their policy.

-Dave

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 8:00:04 AM UTC-5, Morris Carter wrote:
> Any ideas on liability insurance for older pilots that can't get glider
> insurance.

Ahem. Can anyone answer Morris's question?

[CindyB[_2_]]

Fly dual.
Buy a twoseater.

I can't fault the underwriter's choice. The losses dont lie.
I've done my own review of enough accidents for Convention talks to thoroughly agree with them.


Unfortunately, I've met a few who wouldn't accept my recommendation. They went to 'adjacent' gliderports and killed either themselves or a sail plane by continuing PIC operations. I had called both adjacent places to issue a warning. Didn't change the result.

I had several septa/octogenarian customers who could have told you, I Can ride in silence. That just isn't the usual request.

Somebody slap me and stand me down (with love) when they see me close to that line. It's coming for me, too.

CindyB

[Dan Marotta]

Well that explains that.Â* Had you been more clear in your initial post,
I wouldn't have had any questions other than your condescending approach
to people who are older than you are.Â* Maybe you'll get there, too, one day.


On 7/3/2020 5:22 AM, wrote:
> How can I say that he had tunnel vision if he didn't say it over the radio?"
> <-He told me while I was visiting him at the rehabilitation center."
> "I have many problems with your statement."
> <- Take your time and sound out the big words. It's important that we take care of our most senior members and help them transition from flying when it's no longer safe for them to fly.
> Take care.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

One of the undeniable facts of life is that if we live long enough we will die of something. I will be 70 in 10 days, my plan is to do a 7 mile power walk in the hot Florida sun at an 18 minute per mile pace. Except for a perennial need to lose 15 pounds, a few hiccups and a few injuries I've managed to remain healthy. My endurance and heat tolerance is in my opinion, quite good. My dad died at 86, my mom at 92, it's all in our genes folks.

I flew with a guy in his early 90s as a safety pilot in his son's 182, guy was magnificent. Kinda like the "Jan D." of the power world. He flew B29s in WW2 and later Buffs during Vietnam. He retired and went to law school, kept his brain active, a very important thing to do.

Each day we live we get closer to death. Nothing can be done about that but staying physically active and mentally active are of paramount importance.. There are things that we can't avoid, genetic anomalies being one. I've seen teen agers come into my lab for a Nuclear Cardiac study, I've seen every age group imaginable. I've seen brain rumors in children and 80 year olds, it's gonna get ya, it's just a matter of time.

As a tow pilot I was advised by the lawyer cadre of my family (which included an Aviation attorney) to buy some form of insurance that would protect ME. Sure, the glider port had insurance but chances are it did not include employees. IF you have attachable assets, deep pockets and something happens you might find yourself on the hook. Lawyers are sneaky *******s and will investigate you to see what they can get. I never found such a policy although it appears something is available to instructors. I even asked on this forum and no one was aware of such a policy. Are any tow pilots out there insured for liability? My blanket policy does not cover such activities.

Fly safe folks, the life you save may be yours...or the tow pilots.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

[Eric Bick (DY)]

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 7:00:04 AM UTC-6, Morris Carter wrote:
> Any ideas on liability insurance for older pilots that can't get glider
> insurance.

Since none of the responses I'm reading address your question, I'll take a stab at one possibility. It appears you aren't an SSA member. Have you contacted Costello and asked about insurability under the SSA group insurance program? You must be an SSA member to qualify, but I've found it more than worth it. I am past mid-70s and have no issues for being insured for liability or hull insurance under the group program. I recently (last month) added another motorglider, no questions asked other than for how much hull and liability. I currently have a few hundred thou under insurance, including liability. There have been no questions regarding age (but they do know what it is).
'

[LOV2AV8]

I had a partner in an LS8 that was 79 when we purchased it. We were told by Costello that if he was already 80 he would be uninsurable but since he was 79 they could but if he cancelled he would be unable to renew.

Randy "AV8"

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, July 7, 2020 at 7:48:10 AM UTC-7, LOV2AV8 wrote:
> I had a partner in an LS8 that was 79 when we purchased it. We were told by Costello that if he was already 80 he would be uninsurable but since he was 79 they could but if he cancelled he would be unable to renew.
>
> Randy "AV8"

There's no FAR that requires insurance. Or any State law as far as I know. It's not clear to me that insurance is 'worth it'. I've had glider insurance for 40 years and never made a claim. Maybe a good lawyer could protect assets, eg by transfer to children? And I believe retirement funds (like 401Ks) are immune from lawsuits.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Short answer is yes and know! If you transfer assets to children then wreck said glider, you have just given any plaintiff two sources of recovery. I for one am happy to have the group plan that that I too have never had a claim against.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Short answer is yes and know. Asset protection works but you must know what you are doing. The insurance is cheaper.