27 crash at Ely?

[Waveguru]

Does anyone know if a 27 crashed in Ely recently?

Boggs

[Paul Agnew]

On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 10:45:45 AM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
> Does anyone know if a 27 crashed in Ely recently?
>
> Boggs

Yesterday according to the NTSB Newsroom Twitter account. No details mentioned as of yet.

Paul A.

[Pasi Pulkkinen]

On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 5:45:45 PM UTC+3, Waveguru wrote:
> Does anyone know if a 27 crashed in Ely recently?
>
> Boggs

27-18 is ASG29.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Just dropping a quick note, assuming folks will check on OLC who flew a 29 at Ely recently, and will find that I did.
I am currently at Tonopah.
This is very sad. Another day, another friend lost. I don’t know anything officially yet.

Ramy

[Pasi Pulkkinen]

On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 6:29:32 PM UTC+3, Ramy wrote:
> Just dropping a quick note, assuming folks will check on OLC who flew a 29 at Ely recently, and will find that I did.
> I am currently at Tonopah.
> This is very sad. Another day, another friend lost. I don’t know anything officially yet.
>
> Ramy

Sad sad year.. Fly safe Ramy.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 8:45:45 AM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote:
> Does anyone know if a 27 crashed in Ely recently?
>
> Boggs

Was told the last name is Marek

[6PK]

On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 11:37:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 8:45:45 AM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote:
> > Does anyone know if a 27 crashed in Ely recently?
> >
> > Boggs
>
> Was told the last name is Marek

Marek Malolepszy

[WaltWX[_2_]]

On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 11:38:05 AM UTC-7, 6PK wrote:
> On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 11:37:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 8:45:45 AM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote:
> > > Does anyone know if a 27 crashed in Ely recently?
> > >
> > > Boggs
> >
> > Was told the last name is Marek
>
> Marek Malolepszy

I roomed with Marek at Ely for a week in July 2017. Generous and kind man who was dedicated to his record flying especially out of Ely. We flew our own tasks so I didn't get a chance to fly together. Set a 300km Polish record July 1, 2017:

https://www.fai.org/record/18181

Mitch Polinsky after aborting a 750km triangle on Saturday said "One of the more frustrating days I've experienced" ... "Thermals were not well behaved". Dry SW flow in the thermal layer 20-25kts. Perhaps a broken up chopped up thermal day.

Very sad news... Fly safe out there

Walt Rogers WX

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 7:45:45 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> Does anyone know if a 27 crashed in Ely recently?
>
> Boggs

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 7:45:45 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> Does anyone know if a 27 crashed in Ely recently?
>
> Boggs

Very sad indeed. Marek was a friend and a very good pilot. I am so sorry for this loss.

[Michael Mitton]

On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 7:45:45 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> Does anyone know if a 27 crashed in Ely recently?
>
> Boggs

RIP, Marek. The regulars at Ely lost a true friend and a great pilot.

MM

[Waveguru]

Was the accident on take off, or landing, or out on course?

Boggs

[Ramy[_2_]]

Out on course, although probably not long after release since he crashed in the mountains east of Ely.

Ramy

[Glider Pilot]

My last photo of Marek with his ASG-29 last year at Mt. Valley Airport. Super nice person. RIP.


https://share.icloud.com/photos/0-lb2Bx52ICyumyHepQQE09TA

[ASM]

Oh man, that’s terrible news. Jacek

[2G]

On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 5:16:04 PM UTC-7, ASM wrote:
> Oh man, that’s terrible news. Jacek

The accident occurred on the east ridge just a few miles from the airport. It is thought by another pilot that he was thermalling just above the ridge top and got blown to the lee (east) side of it and attempted to glide across to the windward side unsuccessfully. His data logger file was recovered by another glider pilot and provided to the sheriff and, ultimately, the NTSB. Marek was an extremely experienced pilot and knew the area very well. He will be sorely missed.

Tom

[[email protected]]

Marek was a wonderful person. We enjoyed spending time with him here in Tehachapi. May he rest in peace. Prayers for his family.
Dan and Janice Armstrong

[Tom BravoMike]

Few more pictures with Marek, 1963 and 2013

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31233038@N03/

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

I didn't know Marek Malolepszy, I wish I had, it sounds like from his friends.
RIP
This reminds me of the double fatality in Alamagordo NM a few years back where 2 very experienced Pilots, tandem flying, went down shortly after launch in the Mountains to the East, same Lee side accident situation.
Damn this is awful news. It really throws a wet towel on my personal enthusiasm to get out there, let me tell you.
Fly safe in 2020
Nick
T

[2G]

On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 10:21:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Marek was a wonderful person. We enjoyed spending time with him here in Tehachapi. May he rest in peace. Prayers for his family.
> Dan and Janice Armstrong

A further update by a pilot who hiked to the crash site was that the glider's wreckage indicated it was traveling in a northerly direction parallel to the ridgeline and on the windward (west) side of the ridge top. A wind gust or eddy pushed the glider into the ridge with the left-wing low. The left wingtip impacted near the top of the ridge, shedding parts of the wingtip in the process. This tremendous drag cartwheeled the glider, causing the cockpit and right-wing to impact. The force of the impact disintegrated all of the parts, leaving the spars as the most recognizable pieces. Marek died on impact and did not suffer.

Tom

[[email protected]]

Three deaths in Europe over the weekend also.
A DG-300 and a LS-4 midair in Germany. Also, a LS-8 winch launch crash in the Netherlands.

[MNLou]

So sad. He was a great guy who gladly mentored me at Parowan a few years ago.

(Along with a number of other generous pilots.)

Lou

[[email protected]]

I just reread The Beautiful Mountain & her Sinister Trap, by Henry Combs, Soaring mag, Sept 1984. Henry’s friend crashed at 10:30 in the morning looking for earl lift flying alone a ridge line. Henry does an excellent job of explaining how a highly experienced pilot might get trapped on a ridge. Basically, he sets up the trap with a 5 knot thermal out away from the ridge with the sink and rolling away from the thermal, motion that everyone has experienced a thousand times. Only, this morning the sink is aligned with the face of the ridge.............here comes our highly experienced pilot flying along the ridge, looking for an early thermal........ he flies right into 5 knot sink and a rolling away motion of the thermal and the sink and rolling motion is confined by the ridge. Henry, an aeronautical engender states that it’s not hard to experience rolling motion that exceeds the capabilities of our sailplanes ailerons and in this case, the rolling motion is into the ridge!
The Sinister Trap snares someone every now and then........more than a half dozen times in my 50 year soaring experience!
JJ Sinclair

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, July 16, 2020 at 12:57:52 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I just reread The Beautiful Mountain & her Sinister Trap, by Henry Combs, Soaring mag, Sept 1984. Henry’s friend crashed at 10:30 in the morning looking for earl lift flying alone a ridge line. Henry does an excellent job of explaining how a highly experienced pilot might get trapped on a ridge. Basically, he sets up the trap with a 5 knot thermal out away from the ridge with the sink and rolling away from the thermal, motion that everyone has experienced a thousand times. Only, this morning the sink is aligned with the face of the ridge.............here comes our highly experienced pilot flying along the ridge, looking for an early thermal........ he flies right into 5 knot sink and a rolling away motion of the thermal and the sink and rolling motion is confined by the ridge. Henry, an aeronautical engender states that it’s not hard to experience rolling motion that exceeds the capabilities of our sailplanes ailerons and in this case, the rolling motion is into the ridge!
> The Sinister Trap snares someone every now and then........more than a half dozen times in my 50 year soaring experience!
> JJ Sinclair
Henry's article https://www.ssa.org/Archive/ViewIssue.aspx?year=1984&month=09

As I recall JJ Sinclair also wrote an excellent article on that subject? Perhaps you could post that too.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 16, 2020 at 3:57:52 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I just reread The Beautiful Mountain & her Sinister Trap, by Henry Combs, Soaring mag, Sept 1984. Henry’s friend crashed at 10:30 in the morning looking for earl lift flying alone a ridge line. Henry does an excellent job of explaining how a highly experienced pilot might get trapped on a ridge. Basically, he sets up the trap with a 5 knot thermal out away from the ridge with the sink and rolling away from the thermal, motion that everyone has experienced a thousand times. Only, this morning the sink is aligned with the face of the ridge.............here comes our highly experienced pilot flying along the ridge, looking for an early thermal........ he flies right into 5 knot sink and a rolling away motion of the thermal and the sink and rolling motion is confined by the ridge. Henry, an aeronautical engender states that it’s not hard to experience rolling motion that exceeds the capabilities of our sailplanes ailerons and in this case, the rolling motion is into the ridge!
> The Sinister Trap snares someone every now and then........more than a half dozen times in my 50 year soaring experience!
> JJ Sinclair

The question is: how to avoid this trap? What time of day and ridge geometry is conducive to this? What is a safe distance from the ridge and how does that depend on airspeed and thermal and wind conditions? How much airspeed (if any) would keep one safe (enough aileron authority)? When would you avoid circling (in a thermal near a ridge) and use figure eights instead (so as never approaching the ridge head-on), and is that enough to keep you safe (since that rolling motion may still get you even while flying parallel to the ridge)?

[Dan Marotta]

On 7/16/2020 1:57 PM, wrote:
> I just reread The Beautiful Mountain & her Sinister Trap, by Henry Combs, Soaring mag, Sept 1984. Henry’s friend crashed at 10:30 in the morning looking for earl lift flying alone a ridge line. Henry does an excellent job of explaining how a highly experienced pilot might get trapped on a ridge. Basically, he sets up the trap with a 5 knot thermal out away from the ridge with the sink and rolling away from the thermal, motion that everyone has experienced a thousand times. Only, this morning the sink is aligned with the face of the ridge.............here comes our highly experienced pilot flying along the ridge, looking for an early thermal........ he flies right into 5 knot sink and a rolling away motion of the thermal and the sink and rolling motion is confined by the ridge. Henry, an aeronautical engender states that it’s not hard to experience rolling motion that exceeds the capabilities of our sailplanes ailerons and in this case, the rolling motion is into the ridge!
> The Sinister Trap snares someone every now and then........more than a half dozen times in my 50 year soaring experience!
> JJ Sinclair
I wonder if that's what happened to Tom Bjork and John Weber.
--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 8:45:45 AM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote:
> Does anyone know if a 27 crashed in Ely recently?
>
> Boggs

Good read - Martin Hellman (Stanford edu)speech in 2007 at PASCO -

https://ee.stanford.edu/~hellman/soaring/PASCO_2007_talk.html -

and the article stated by JJ is excellent - it almost happened to me
twice - once it happens you are almost powerless to counter the rolling
force - especially if you are without water ballast and you are slow -
I believe this phenomenon has happened often

[2G]

On Thursday, July 16, 2020 at 12:57:52 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I just reread The Beautiful Mountain & her Sinister Trap, by Henry Combs, Soaring mag, Sept 1984. Henry’s friend crashed at 10:30 in the morning looking for earl lift flying alone a ridge line. Henry does an excellent job of explaining how a highly experienced pilot might get trapped on a ridge. Basically, he sets up the trap with a 5 knot thermal out away from the ridge with the sink and rolling away from the thermal, motion that everyone has experienced a thousand times. Only, this morning the sink is aligned with the face of the ridge.............here comes our highly experienced pilot flying along the ridge, looking for an early thermal........ he flies right into 5 knot sink and a rolling away motion of the thermal and the sink and rolling motion is confined by the ridge. Henry, an aeronautical engender states that it’s not hard to experience rolling motion that exceeds the capabilities of our sailplanes ailerons and in this case, the rolling motion is into the ridge!
> The Sinister Trap snares someone every now and then........more than a half dozen times in my 50 year soaring experience!
> JJ Sinclair

This situation is much more complex than that described by Combs. The day was very gusty with a simultaneous combination of ridge, thermal, and wave lift. The thermals were broken and hard to work. Marak's left-wing dipped (perhaps stalled), yet he turned hard to the right (??). The left wing tip hit the top of the ridge causing the glider to cartwheel. The cockpit took the full force of the impact, which was great enough to break the shoulder harness webbing. The wings were still in their assembled position, albeit with the pins ejected.

While one may want a simple explanation of what happened to Marak, the realities are more complex. The take-home advice is that you need plenty of separation from the rocks. I advise enough to complete a turn toward the rocks with margin to spare.

Tom

[[email protected]]

I watched Tom Madigan fly into a ridge at a contest in Bishop California. There were three of us working a thermal East of Bishop. Those of you that have flown there know that you have to patiently work your way up to the top of the White Mountains by crawling stepwise up the western ridges, and then, when on top the going gets easy. It was a long task and so we launched early. Myself, Tom and Dr. Chuck Fisher were doing figure eights not far from the ridge. We were above the buttress and probably about 500 ft AGL so we could probably safely abandon our figure eights and start circling. Tom Was probably 100 feet below Chuck and I when I observed him turn toward the East to begin his circle. He appeared to sink into the ridge and at the last minute, he leveled his wings and pulled up. He came within a few feet of the top but failed to clear the terrain. I have an indelible memory of his water ballast bags flying out the leading edge of his wings and bursting on the rocks in front of the glider.
After making a few more turns I flew directly over the crash site to confirm the tail number before notifying contest ground. There was impressive sink just above the crash site and I assume it was there when Tom made his fatal turn toward the ridge. Chuck and I landed and, along with a local sheriff, hiked up to the crash site hoping that Tom was still alive. He was shoved up under the spar and appeared to have died instantly.
Once the convection gets going on the Bishop western ridges, there is a friendly push away from the terrain caused by the anabatic flow that sets up on most afternoons. We had been enjoying that push all week, and I suspect Tom counted on it being there on this day as well. The uphill breeze was present by the time we hiked up to the crash site, I think our early takeoff was a significant part of the setup for this accident.
The recent Ely accident,I understand, was also following an early launch.. It makes sense that early in the day thermals may stand away from the ridge, thus allowing the adjacent sink to dump onto the ridge, and then later they tend to hug the ridge after the anabatic winds gets established. Certainly Tom made a mistake, but how many of us have made that first circle toward rising terrain and when half way around, wished we had Done a few more figure eights. I’ve never fully regained my fearlessness since that incident 30 years ago. I give ridges a safe margin and then add a few hundred feet for wife and the kids.

Dale Bush

[[email protected]]

Ridge rules to live by..........on my first pass on a ridge, I keep my speed up (65 knots, dry; 70 knots, wet) and I stay about 300 feet off the rocks, both vertically and laterally! Another rule that I try to follow is to be very careful anytime the wind is over 20 knots! There are days when I just wont get within 1000 feet of the ridge, but rules cant always be followed. Last year I made a run for Peterson ridge with a tail-wind of 25 knots. I got there about half way up the side and was rewarded with very turbulent lift. I flew figure-eights until I was 500 feet above the ridge, then I tried a 360 degree turn. As my circle passed the top of the ridge, I hit a tremendous bump and the ship was thrown completely vertical, nose down. Didn’t last long and I was flying again within a few seconds. The stick remained neutral throughout the incident. I think it was a shear line on the back side of the ridge. Came away thinking I should have figure-eight’d until I was 1000 feet above the ridge!
JJ

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Mountain flying in glider many times is self taught, as in my case. Years ago as a low time young glider pilot in my first season of XC flying, I was on a safari flying out of Lone Pine in an ASW-24. I was thermalling in a ravine running up the side of the mountain. I was not flying figure eights, rather circles and suddenly I was picked up by the tail, nose pointing what looked straight down, but was still being pulled skyward. My only thought was "oh, that is how hang gliders get tumbled, glad I have tail feathers.." I recovered and continued my circling to get on top, never a thought about what really happened. I was too young, inexperienced and stupid to realize how the hand of fate gave me a break that day. Be careful, don't be afraid to ask questions and heed JJ's advice. On another flight that same week I was over West guard pass at 15,000 ft, when I thought I would fly under a cell to see what happened. I barely made straight in downwind landing at Bishop, 8 miles away. Get some training if you are going to fly the mountains!!! Then be careful and leave an out it is very unforgiving.

[Mike N.]

God bless Marek and his family. Condolences to all.

I am reading this and other related threads intensely.

I am a low time mountain pilot. Flying the Logan UT, mountain Soaring and OLC camp last August was my first mountain Soaring.

I was encouraged to fly dual with another more seasoned pilot, before flying on my own, which I did. We spent most of a day Soaring the area both flying off the mountains as well as valley thermals.

It was a great experience. I appreciated the opportunity to learn.

I'd like to do some more mountain dual. The USA mountain Soaring and OLC camp was a great experience. Where, in the U.S. can I get more of the same?

I think the only other actual mountain Soaring training in the U.S. is Minden?

I am interested in any additional mountain training or dual experience I can get as a fledgling cross country pilot.

Maybe there should be more mountain flying camps in the U.S. In certain areas of Europe mountain flying and training seems to be much more prevalent.

I continue to read these threads with great interest. I am setting very conservative mountain flying standards for myself.
Keep airspeed up.
Figure 8 only until well above the ridge
Be alert and ready for turbulence or upsets.
Listen to local knowledable pilots and seek their advice before flying.

Mike - 1M

[[email protected]]

It’s so alarming to see so many guys on YouTube flying super close to ridges at such low airspeeds.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 1:00:21 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> It’s so alarming to see so many guys on YouTube flying super close to ridges at such low airspeeds.

Here is a cautionary tale:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfCh9tvGSOk&list=PL2Iz1Kp0tHcLc51pJpuHmczyzetIUQXM5&index=11

[Brian[_1_]]

On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 2:00:21 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> It’s so alarming to see so many guys on YouTube flying super close to ridges at such low airspeeds.

Youtube Video's often border between deceptive and dangerous.

Pilots may be flying closer than they should. Might be why they are taking a video, or doing so for the video. Camera's do tend to make people do stupid things.

But also Camera's often make it look like they are closer than they really are. Inexperienced pilots watching these might think this is normal and what they should be doing.

Getting some time with and experienced pilot and experiencing it 1st hand so you can see what really is safe and what isn't is invaluable if not life saving.

Brian

[Tom BravoMike]

On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 3:36:35 PM UTC-5, Brian wrote:
> On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 2:00:21 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > It’s so alarming to see so many guys on YouTube flying super close to ridges at such low airspeeds.
> Youtube Video's often border between deceptive and dangerous.
>
> Pilots may be flying closer than they should. Might be why they are taking a video, or doing so for the video. Camera's do tend to make people do stupid things.
>
> But also Camera's often make it look like they are closer than they really are. Inexperienced pilots watching these might think this is normal and what they should be doing.
>
> Getting some time with and experienced pilot and experiencing it 1st hand so you can see what really is safe and what isn't is invaluable if not life saving.
>
> Brian

How about this looking close to the rocks (5:25)?
https://youtu.be/48P-Y1JF2K0

[6PK]

On Monday, July 20, 2020 at 8:18:18 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 3:36:35 PM UTC-5, Brian wrote:
> > On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 2:00:21 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > > It’s so alarming to see so many guys on YouTube flying super close to ridges at such low airspeeds.
> > Youtube Video's often border between deceptive and dangerous.
> >
> > Pilots may be flying closer than they should. Might be why they are taking a video, or doing so for the video. Camera's do tend to make people do stupid things.
> >
> > But also Camera's often make it look like they are closer than they really are. Inexperienced pilots watching these might think this is normal and what they should be doing.
> >
> > Getting some time with and experienced pilot and experiencing it 1st hand so you can see what really is safe and what isn't is invaluable if not life saving.
> >
> > Brian
>
> How about this looking close to the rocks (5:25)?
> https://youtu.be/48P-Y1JF2K0

....but what kind of sunlight readable phone/PNA navigation device were they using? I thought it was impressive.

[soaringjac]

On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 7:40:37 AM UTC-7, 6PK wrote:
> On Monday, July 20, 2020 at 8:18:18 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 3:36:35 PM UTC-5, Brian wrote:
> > > On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 2:00:21 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > > > It’s so alarming to see so many guys on YouTube flying super close to ridges at such low airspeeds.
> > > Youtube Video's often border between deceptive and dangerous.
> > >
> > > Pilots may be flying closer than they should. Might be why they are taking a video, or doing so for the video. Camera's do tend to make people do stupid things.
> > >
> > > But also Camera's often make it look like they are closer than they really are. Inexperienced pilots watching these might think this is normal and what they should be doing.
> > >
> > > Getting some time with and experienced pilot and experiencing it 1st hand so you can see what really is safe and what isn't is invaluable if not life saving.
> > >
> > > Brian
> >
> > How about this looking close to the rocks (5:25)?
> > https://youtu.be/48P-Y1JF2K0
>
> ...but what kind of sunlight readable phone/PNA navigation device were they using? I thought it was impressive.

Looks like XCSoar on a Samsung phone. I run XCSoar on a Samsung Galaxy S7 phone and it is amazing. Super bright and extremely sunlight readable in the bright California sun. Battery life on the phone is at least 5 hours.

[BG[_4_]]

On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 8:39:35 AM UTC-7, Mike N. wrote:
> God bless Marek and his family. Condolences to all.
>
> I am reading this and other related threads intensely.
>
> I am a low time mountain pilot. Flying the Logan UT, mountain Soaring and OLC camp last August was my first mountain Soaring.
>
> I was encouraged to fly dual with another more seasoned pilot, before flying on my own, which I did. We spent most of a day Soaring the area both flying off the mountains as well as valley thermals.
>
> It was a great experience. I appreciated the opportunity to learn.
>
> I'd like to do some more mountain dual. The USA mountain Soaring and OLC camp was a great experience. Where, in the U.S. can I get more of the same?
>
> I think the only other actual mountain Soaring training in the U.S. is Minden?
>
> I am interested in any additional mountain training or dual experience I can get as a fledgling cross country pilot.
>
> Maybe there should be more mountain flying camps in the U.S. In certain areas of Europe mountain flying and training seems to be much more prevalent..
>
> I continue to read these threads with great interest. I am setting very conservative mountain flying standards for myself.
> Keep airspeed up.
> Figure 8 only until well above the ridge
> Be alert and ready for turbulence or upsets.
> Listen to local knowledable pilots and seek their advice before flying.
>
> Mike - 1M

AirSailing north of Reno, Nv offers a Thermal and X-country Camp every year except for this one. It offers the mountain flying experience in local flights, where as Minden the ridge soaring is a bit far away on the Pine Nuts.. Both offer wave and the ability to begin long cross country flights over the Sierras and to The Whites. The Whites are particular dangerous that have claimed many lives in gliders and hang gliding over the years. Flying next to steep terrain is particularly filled with gotchas. I instruct in these areas and teach the closer to the rock you fly the faster you must fly for control reasons. Never make turns towards the ridge, always away. And lastly always have an escape plan, if **** happens. In Hawaii flying a 23 meter ASW 17, I have gone nearly inverted near Mtn. Kahala in the lee of a ridge. Lucky I had more than a 1000ft underneath me to recover.

[6PK]

That does not look like a Samsung Galaxy of any kind to me. Look at what appears to be knobs or antenna on top of the device?

[soaringjac]

On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 1:22:34 PM UTC-7, 6PK wrote:
> That does not look like a Samsung Galaxy of any kind to me. Look at what appears to be knobs or antenna on top of the device?

Thats part of the phone mount used to mount the phone. if you watch some more of his videos, mainly at the start you can sometimes see him mount the phone to that holder. I use a phone case and a mount from https://www.quadlockcase.com/ to mount my phone to a ram arm coming off the panel. much cleaner and stronger hold that other mounts

[Hightime]

On Sunday, July 12, 2020 at 8:45:45 AM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote:
> Does anyone know if a 27 crashed in Ely recently?
>
> Boggs

In the mountains you must be ready to hammer the rudder when you run out of aileron , If your not used to this maneuver best to practice it . Secondary effect of rudder

[son_of_flubber]

Is close_to_terrain slope and ridge soaring unavoidable in big mountain terrain in SW USA, or can you opt out and stay 1000+AGL when using ridge, thermal, wave, and convergence lift?

I did six hours of dual close_to_terrain slope soaring at Omarama in February largely to see if the risk/benefit made sense to me in a best case scenario where all factors (aircraft,pilot,terrain,weather) are top shelf.

I understand that if you opt out of close_to_terrain soaring, you might also be opting out of the big OLC scores, and fly fewer days, but that's okay with me.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

son_of_flubber wrote on 7/21/2020 3:47 PM:
> Is close_to_terrain slope and ridge soaring unavoidable in big mountain terrain in SW USA, or can you opt out and stay 1000+AGL when using ridge, thermal, wave, and convergence lift?
>
> I did six hours of dual close_to_terrain slope soaring at Omarama in February largely to see if the risk/benefit made sense to me in a best case scenario where all factors (aircraft,pilot,terrain,weather) are top shelf.
>
> I understand that if you opt out of close_to_terrain soaring, you might also be opting out of the big OLC scores, and fly fewer days, but that's okay with me.

The situation we've been discussing is thermalling close to a mountain because
that's where the thermals are, with the intent of getting above the ridge and
thermalling higher. It's this need to stay in a small area (the thermal) that is
the problem: you can use figure 8s, but that often doesn't keep you in the best
lift.

Wave soaring generally doesn't put you in that situation, as the wave forms
downwind of the mountain; convergence also happens away from the mountain, so two
air masses can interact. Slope soaring usually means you have a mostly steady wind
against the slope, creating an updraft along the face of the mountain, so there is
no need to circle.

So, my experience is yes, most of the time I can stay safely away from the
mountain. The most likely time I use thermals below the mountain top is right
after launch, when I'm still low, and there aren't good thermals in the valley.

High desert pilots in the southwest US tend to fly ABOVE the mountains, but
New Zealanders (and pilots in some other mountainous areas) tend to fly AMONG the
mountains.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[6PK]

Hammer the rudder...now really??

[Ramy[_2_]]

Ridge soaring barely exists in the Great Basin and most of western US. The terrain and wind does not favor ridge soaring. Occasionally at the end of the day after the thermal die we can extend the flight a little using ridge soaring. And even then it does not require hugging the terrain. These sort of crashes unfortunately happen when pilots get low below the terrain scratching for thermals or at the beginning of the day when looking for thermals near ridges. Usually it is not needed to get too close to terrain as the lift a little further is often better and easier to work. How close is too close depends on many factors.

Ramy

[Andreas Maurer[_2_]]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 13:22:32 -0700 (PDT), 6PK >
wrote:

>That does not look like a Samsung Galaxy of any kind to me. Look at what appears to be knobs or antenna on top of the device?

It's a standard Samsung S5, S6 or S7.
Perfectly readable in sunlight,

Cheers
Andreas

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 7:47:54 PM UTC-4, 6PK wrote:
> Hammer the rudder...now really??

It would explain some mysteries...

T8

[Hightime]

Not a physical hammer
But a firm and quick response with ones foot to overcome running out of aileron

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:17:55 PM UTC+1, Hightime wrote:
> Not a physical hammer
> But a firm and quick response with ones foot to overcome running out of aileron

....but only if you are sure that you have sufficient angle of attack reserve or are simultaneously controlling it

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 10:17:55 AM UTC-4, Hightime wrote:
> Not a physical hammer
> But a firm and quick response with ones foot to overcome running out of aileron

This instructor observes that the universal tendency among pilots new to mountain flying is to over rudder (skid) turns when close to terrain and flying with a tailwind component. That's a dangerous practice that needs to be guarded against. What you are advocating seems to run counter to this.

T8

[Hightime]

When the mountain gods hammer your wing down or up , full aileron deflection (coordinated) is just not enough , at this point forget the yaw string for a second , but switch gears to getting the wing back where you want it , by quickly using the secondary effect of rudder get the wing back under control and when things are looking good go back to coordinated flight

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 7:18:33 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> The situation we've been discussing is thermalling close to a mountain because
> that's where the thermals are, with the intent of getting above the ridge and
> thermalling higher.


Does this happen often because the tops of the ridges in UT are higher than the typical aerotow?

Are SW USA slopes steeper than NE USA slopes and would the thermals put you closer to terrain?


According to an early post the accident happened on top of the ridge

On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 1:08:32 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> ...It is thought by another pilot that he was thermalling just above the ridge top and got blown to the lee (east) side of it and attempted to glide across to the windward side unsuccessfully.

[6PK]

I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

son_of_flubber wrote on 7/22/2020 10:03 AM:
> On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 7:18:33 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>> The situation we've been discussing is thermalling close to a mountain because
>> that's where the thermals are, with the intent of getting above the ridge and
>> thermalling higher.
>
>
> Does this happen often because the tops of the ridges in UT are higher than the typical aerotow?
>
> Are SW USA slopes steeper than NE USA slopes and would the thermals put you closer to terrain?
>
>
> According to an early post the accident happened on top of the ridge
>
> On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 1:08:32 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
>> ...It is thought by another pilot that he was thermalling just above the ridge top and got blown to the lee (east) side of it and attempted to glide across to the windward side unsuccessfully.
>
Generally, the ridges are a lot higher than an aerotow. Take look at a sectional
for places like Minden, NV, Ely, NV, Parowan, UT, Nephi, UT. TAke a look at how
steep the mountains are, but I'd say the big difference is the smaller ridges
sticking out from the main ridge, so you don't get a relatively uniform sheet of
air flowing over the main ridge. The thermals often form in the "bowls" between
these minor ridges, so a circle is close to rocks over more of it's circumference.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
> I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.

>
"Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.

And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
- no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.

Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
good piloting?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[6PK]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:03:12 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
> > I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.
>
> >
> "Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
> determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
> circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
> fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
> from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
> how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.
>
> And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
> addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
> - no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
> pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.
>
> Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
> more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
> myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
> good piloting?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Not keeping the speed up; and I mean 5-10kn over smooth air and terrain depending how rough it maybe. It's way too easy too lose control in slow speeds and even stall in rough air. Being close to the rocks is a personal choice, some feel more comfortable being closer than others and that is just the way it is, there is no hard rules in regards to that. Obviously stay far enough to be out of trouble. "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.

[2G]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 8:26:16 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 10:17:55 AM UTC-4, Hightime wrote:
> > Not a physical hammer
> > But a firm and quick response with ones foot to overcome running out of aileron
>
> This instructor observes that the universal tendency among pilots new to mountain flying is to over rudder (skid) turns when close to terrain and flying with a tailwind component. That's a dangerous practice that needs to be guarded against. What you are advocating seems to run counter to this.
>
> T8

Right - it will result in severe uncoordinated flight and could result in a spin (not good with rocks near). If you do not have control authority to counter external forces I would think that you are best off going with the flow and figuring out another maneuver that uses these forces. Vital to all of this is having the clearance to do such a maneuver.

Tom

[George Haeh]

A vortex can produce a shear of twice the wind aloft in something like 2-3 seconds. The axis can be vertical, horizontal or anywhere in between.

I remember pulling my 27 into a thermal at about 50 kt while moving to flap 3 - and getting spat out inverted on a 30±° downline in a blink of an eye. Lost 800'.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:03:12 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> 6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
>>> I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.
>>
>>>
>> "Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
>> determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
>> circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
>> fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
>> from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
>> how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.
>>
>> And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
>> addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
>> - no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
>> pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.
>>
>> Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
>> more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
>> myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
>> good piloting?
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> Not keeping the speed up; and I mean 5-10kn over smooth air and terrain depending how rough it maybe. It's way too easy too lose control in slow speeds and even stall in rough air. Being close to the rocks is a personal choice, some feel more comfortable being closer than others and that is just the way it is, there is no hard rules in regards to that. Obviously stay far enough to be out of trouble. "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.
>
My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying - not stalled -
but not fast enough to generate roll greater than the excess lift under one wing.
Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 9:09:19 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
> > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:03:12 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> 6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
> >>> I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.
> >>
> >>>
> >> "Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
> >> determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
> >> circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
> >> fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
> >> from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
> >> how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.
> >>
> >> And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
> >> addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
> >> - no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
> >> pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.
> >>
> >> Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
> >> more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
> >> myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
> >> good piloting?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >
> > Not keeping the speed up; and I mean 5-10kn over smooth air and terrain depending how rough it maybe. It's way too easy too lose control in slow speeds and even stall in rough air. Being close to the rocks is a personal choice, some feel more comfortable being closer than others and that is just the way it is, there is no hard rules in regards to that. Obviously stay far enough to be out of trouble. "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.
> >
> My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying - not stalled -
> but not fast enough to generate roll greater than the excess lift under one wing.
> Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

....or it could, and likely would, put the wing into a deep stall.

[5Z]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 9:09:19 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
> > "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent
> > spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.
> >
> My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying
> - not stalled - but not fast enough to generate roll greater than
> the excess lift under one wing.
> Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.

Not just rudder, but push forward on the stick as well. Stall speed decreases as G load decreases. When attempting to thermal and maneuver near the rocks, I always make sure that I can dive out of trouble - NEVER PULL! So if the glider starts getting squirrely or tossed around, I push, bank, and rudder to get away from the rocks. If full aileron and staying coordinated isn't enough, then slamming the rudder to help the roll works nicely. The glider shouldn't stall as I approach zero G, but if it does, the incipient spin and recovery is still helping me get away from the rocks.

Just as with aerobatics and other advanced maneuvers, don't do this without proper training and/or practice in a safe environment. And if you plan to use a tool such as this, make sure you've been practicing, so it's second nature. Diving at the ground and obstacles is something that has to be learned and counterintuitive for the novice.

In the flatlands east of the Colorado Front Range, I've experienced a downburst several times, and generally at 1000-1500' AGL near the airport. The glider starts to feel like it's falling and airspeed is dropping. I push the nose forward and even when in what seems like a 45 degree dive, I'm still barely above stall speed. The ground is coming up fast, but I don't dare to pull back. Eventually, airspeed builds, and I end up levelling off at less than 100' and 90-110 KIAS or more. Luckily this has only happened either directly over the runway, or on downwind, and I had enough energy to make a safe landing. But I was prepared to make a controlled crash in the direction I was headed. A similar technique applies when working a thermal below the ridge crest.

5Z

[Tango Whisky]

The procedure is push and hard rudder. Ther are situations where this is the only way out.

[Ramy[_2_]]

As 5Z and Tango Whisky says.
If you don’t know how to use rudder to help lifting a wing than you missing fundamental knowledge.
This is not only helpful in cruise but also on takeoff roll and tow.
This not to be confused with cross control or with attempt to expedite a base to final turn, this may kill you.

Ramy

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 7/22/2020 9:28 PM:
> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 9:09:19 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> 6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
>>> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:03:12 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> 6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
>>>>> I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> "Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
>>>> determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
>>>> circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
>>>> fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
>>>> from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
>>>> how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.
>>>>
>>>> And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
>>>> addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
>>>> - no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
>>>> pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
>>>> more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
>>>> myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
>>>> good piloting?
>>>>

>>>
>>> Not keeping the speed up; and I mean 5-10kn over smooth air and terrain depending how rough it maybe. It's way too easy too lose control in slow speeds and even stall in rough air. Being close to the rocks is a personal choice, some feel more comfortable being closer than others and that is just the way it is, there is no hard rules in regards to that. Obviously stay far enough to be out of trouble. "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.
>>>
>> My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying - not stalled -
>> but not fast enough to generate roll greater than the excess lift under one wing.
>> Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.
>>
>
> ....or it could, and likely would, put the wing into a deep stall.

If the dropping wing is stalled, opposite rudder is part of the spin recovery; if
the dropping wing isn't stalled (the case we were discussing), opposite rudder
will increase the lift on the wing, and help overcome the rolling induced by the
updraft. I think most of us would automatically apply full rudder anyway, when
they applied full aileron.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 12:55:12 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
> The procedure is push and hard rudder. Ther are situations where this is the only way out.

Stupid question: if you push to zero-G, wouldn't then the yaw caused by the "hard rudder" have zero rolling effect, since both wings have zero AOA, thus the differential airspeed doesn't matter?

[Dan Marotta]

So many folks seem to be afraid of the rudder.Â* It's just another flight
control and, properly used as Tom says, can make the difference.Â* I use
lots of rudder routinely in the Stemme to get the nose down after a
sharp pull up in a thermal.Â* There's a lot of momentum in the Stemme due
to its weight at speed and it takes a steep pull to center a thermal
quickly.Â* Hard left rudder (since I'm on that side of the aircraft) gets
the nose slicing down towards the horizon.Â* Remove most of the rudder
and apply back stick to recover at or slightly below the horizon.

And BTW, I'll argue that there's no such thing as "stall speed", it's
always about angle of attack.Â* Unloading the aircraft reduces AoA,
keeping it below the critical angle.

On 7/22/2020 10:45 PM, 5Z wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 9:09:19 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> 6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
>>> "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent
>>> spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.
>>>
>> My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying
>> - not stalled - but not fast enough to generate roll greater than
>> the excess lift under one wing.
>> Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.
> Not just rudder, but push forward on the stick as well. Stall speed decreases as G load decreases. When attempting to thermal and maneuver near the rocks, I always make sure that I can dive out of trouble - NEVER PULL! So if the glider starts getting squirrely or tossed around, I push, bank, and rudder to get away from the rocks. If full aileron and staying coordinated isn't enough, then slamming the rudder to help the roll works nicely. The glider shouldn't stall as I approach zero G, but if it does, the incipient spin and recovery is still helping me get away from the rocks.
>
> Just as with aerobatics and other advanced maneuvers, don't do this without proper training and/or practice in a safe environment. And if you plan to use a tool such as this, make sure you've been practicing, so it's second nature. Diving at the ground and obstacles is something that has to be learned and counterintuitive for the novice.
>
> In the flatlands east of the Colorado Front Range, I've experienced a downburst several times, and generally at 1000-1500' AGL near the airport. The glider starts to feel like it's falling and airspeed is dropping. I push the nose forward and even when in what seems like a 45 degree dive, I'm still barely above stall speed. The ground is coming up fast, but I don't dare to pull back. Eventually, airspeed builds, and I end up levelling off at less than 100' and 90-110 KIAS or more. Luckily this has only happened either directly over the runway, or on downwind, and I had enough energy to make a safe landing. But I was prepared to make a controlled crash in the direction I was headed. A similar technique applies when working a thermal below the ridge crest.
>
> 5Z

--
Dan, 5J

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 7/23/2020 7:18 AM:
> On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 12:55:12 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
>> The procedure is push and hard rudder. Ther are situations where this is the only way out.
>
> Stupid question: if you push to zero-G, wouldn't then the yaw caused by the "hard rudder" have zero rolling effect, since both wings have zero AOA, thus the differential airspeed doesn't matter?
>
Because the wing has dihedral, the yaw from left rudder will give the right wing
more AOA, and left wing less AOA. And vice versa, of course.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

You guys are having a January bull session in July... go fly!

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

5Z and Tango Whiskey and Hightime speak the truth.

Every Glider Pilot both Flatlanders and Mountains pilots should know this life saving, pretty basic maneuver.
If your in a loosing battle with roll control it IS " Time to push and apply full or Hammer the rudder.
The push to near or at zero G is so important. No stall= No spin

Just last Saturday flying out of Nephi Ut in the flats of the valley over Yuba Res I had a thermal kick me into a 80 degree bank.
Full roll control wasn't enough so I pushed to about .1 G and full ruddered it back level. I've done this about 100 times in my soaring career.

Use all the controls to the max when things start to get sideways. And always Push forward.
A early flight instructor once said to me " move the controls to make the plane do what you want it to do".
This accident that started this thread is tough to take. Poor guy hit the hill.
I think its obvious when that happens he was too close.
Awful hard on his friends and family but it sounds like it was over very quickly.
Fly safe in 2020
Nick
T

[2G]

On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 1:27:58 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> 5Z and Tango Whiskey and Hightime speak the truth.
>
> Every Glider Pilot both Flatlanders and Mountains pilots should know this life saving, pretty basic maneuver.
> If your in a loosing battle with roll control it IS " Time to push and apply full or Hammer the rudder.
> The push to near or at zero G is so important. No stall= No spin
>
> Just last Saturday flying out of Nephi Ut in the flats of the valley over Yuba Res I had a thermal kick me into a 80 degree bank.
> Full roll control wasn't enough so I pushed to about .1 G and full ruddered it back level. I've done this about 100 times in my soaring career.
>
> Use all the controls to the max when things start to get sideways. And always Push forward.
> A early flight instructor once said to me " move the controls to make the plane do what you want it to do".
> This accident that started this thread is tough to take. Poor guy hit the hill.
> I think its obvious when that happens he was too close.
> Awful hard on his friends and family but it sounds like it was over very quickly.
> Fly safe in 2020
> Nick
> T

Marak may well have tried this because the left-wing dropped (the left wingtip impacted first, leaving a ground scar as it shedded wingtip pieces), yet he turned to the right towards the ridge. This seems to indicate that he gave it full right rudder. Also, he had just cleared a rib that was 90 deg to the ridge and the wind was a tailwind over this rib which may have generated a vortex that started the whole sequence.

Tom

[Darren Braun]

> Marak may well have tried this because the left-wing dropped (the left wingtip impacted first, leaving a ground scar as it shedded wingtip pieces),

I wonder if he was thermaling left hand up the the ridge close and was pushed into the ridge hence the left wing hitting and then attempted to roll out.... well I guess they have the igc file and will find this out... eventually.

[Ramy[_2_]]

He also had ADS-B out in case the igc file not working. And if neither is available, his flight trace can be reconstructed from other flarms nearby, including those on the ground. I hope the NTSB and the folks helping them are aware of it.

Ramy

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Nick Kennedy wrote on 7/23/2020 1:27 PM:
> Just last Saturday flying out of Nephi Ut in the flats of the valley over Yuba Res I had a thermal kick me into a 80 degree bank.
> Full roll control wasn't enough so I pushed to about .1 G and full ruddered it back level. I've done this about 100 times in my soaring career.

Wow! That's never happened to me! In 6000+ hours of flying all over North America
- never have I been pushed more than 20 degrees or so. Just luck can't explain
that difference, so I wonder what we are doing differently that I've never been in
danger, and you've been there 100 times.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 6:06:49 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Nick Kennedy wrote on 7/23/2020 1:27 PM:
> > Just last Saturday flying out of Nephi Ut in the flats of the valley over Yuba Res I had a thermal kick me into a 80 degree bank.
> > Full roll control wasn't enough so I pushed to about .1 G and full ruddered it back level. I've done this about 100 times in my soaring career.
>
> Wow! That's never happened to me! In 6000+ hours of flying all over North America
> - never have I been pushed more than 20 degrees or so. Just luck can't explain
> that difference, so I wonder what we are doing differently that I've never been in
> danger, and you've been there 100 times.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

I have had some upsets of this magnitude. I remember having my (glider's) tail lifted nearly vertically. I have also encountered roll clouds that rolled me 90 degrees.

Tom

[[email protected]]

Wasn't one of the solutions to this to use go with the flow and go inverted rolling in the direction of the dropping wing and fly out inverted? This might allow someone to avoid hitting the mountain when normal control forces are not sufficient to stop the roll.

This would be similar, though more extreme, to Karl Striediek's technique of banking in the direction of sink (dropping wing) to quickly get into the center of lift instead of trying to bank towards the rising wing, when trying t center a thermal.

Of course going inverted deliberately close to terrain is not a snap decision but need a lot of thought and best aerobatic instruction,

Thoughts?

[Ramy[_2_]]

Same here. I’ve been hearing horror stories of severe upsets, pointing straight down to the rocks, and even completely upside down since I started flying and after 8000 hours of frequent flying in strong Great Basin conditions I feel I am long overdue. Maybe I am just lucky.
I did experience few times the drop on the back side of the ridge when doing one too many circles which certainly got my attention but I always had more than enough margin to recover, otherwise I don’t complete the circle.

Ramy

[James Metcalfe]

At 05:10 24 July 2020, wrote:
>...Of course going inverted deliberately close to terrain is not a snap
>decision but need a lot of thought and best aerobatic instruction,
>Thoughts?
What colour are the pills you're on?
Or is this just the latest bit of obscure American humour?

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Ramy, When you fly from Nephi Ut to Rifle Co and back and all the way across Utah both ways, its obvious the thermals are working for you. Not against you, with you!
At the mid winter thermal convention I'm sure they talk about you Keith, Jim, Joe, The Mocklers, all you super long distance guys and agree to help you guys out next season.
Eric I never said I was in danger, Over Yuba last week end, I was thousands of feet in the air at the time. But I have had several "Roll into the hill" events, that did frighten me. When ever the bank continues to increase, uncommanded, I get concerned.
After My HG open distance pal Geoff Lyons hit the hill at Boundary Peak Owens Valley, that was really a wake up call for me, on how it can happen if your too close, to anyone.
Reread 5Z's post, he's got the right stuff.
Fly safe in 2020
Nick
T

[gkemp]

On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 10:46:15 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Same here. I’ve been hearing horror stories of severe upsets, pointing straight down to the rocks, and even completely upside down since I started flying and after 8000 hours of frequent flying in strong Great Basin conditions I feel I am long overdue. Maybe I am just lucky.
> I did experience few times the drop on the back side of the ridge when doing one too many circles which certainly got my attention but I always had more than enough margin to recover, otherwise I don’t complete the circle.
>
> Ramy

I was 14,000 feet over Antelope in Siskiyou County in my Nimbus 3 and my right wing was kicked up and I couldn't recover with aileron. I rolled on through and felt like I came out the bottom, glad I was at 14,000 feet.

GKemp NK

[Ramy[_2_]]

Someone once insisted there are “holes� in the air. I agree although I don’t think I ever hit a real one yet, especially not close to terrain, but I believe they are, and it is a matter of being at the wrong place at the wrong time, and perhaps at the wrong speed. Nearly every year we loose someone to these holes. Theoretically we can avoid bad fate by never fly close to terrain, but we know it is not possible to always do this if we want to be able to soar.

Ramy

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, July 24, 2020 at 7:11:40 AM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Ramy, When you fly from Nephi Ut to Rifle Co and back and all the way across Utah both ways, its obvious the thermals are working for you. Not against you, with you!
> At the mid winter thermal convention I'm sure they talk about you Keith, Jim, Joe, The Mocklers, all you super long distance guys and agree to help you guys out next season.
> Eric I never said I was in danger, Over Yuba last week end, I was thousands of feet in the air at the time. But I have had several "Roll into the hill" events, that did frighten me. When ever the bank continues to increase, uncommanded, I get concerned.
> After My HG open distance pal Geoff Lyons hit the hill at Boundary Peak Owens Valley, that was really a wake up call for me, on how it can happen if your too close, to anyone.
> Reread 5Z's post, he's got the right stuff.
> Fly safe in 2020
> Nick
> T
I was on a hiatus from soaring when Geoff Lyons had his accident. Can someone please tell me what happened?

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

gkemp wrote on 7/24/2020 8:02 AM:
> On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 10:46:15 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
>> Same here. I’ve been hearing horror stories of severe upsets, pointing straight down to the rocks, and even completely upside down since I started flying and after 8000 hours of frequent flying in strong Great Basin conditions I feel I am long overdue. Maybe I am just lucky.
>> I did experience few times the drop on the back side of the ridge when doing one too many circles which certainly got my attention but I always had more than enough margin to recover, otherwise I don’t complete the circle.
>>
>> Ramy
>
> I was 14,000 feet over Antelope in Siskiyou County in my Nimbus 3 and my right wing was kicked up and I couldn't recover with aileron. I rolled on through and felt like I came out the bottom, glad I was at 14,000 feet.

Wing tip vortex from an airliner going into Medford?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 10:03:12 AM UTC+12, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
> > I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.
>
> >
> "Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
> determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
> circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
> fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
> from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
> how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.

The 'rule' I use and teach is the take your target thermalling speed and add five knots for terrain and five knots for turbulence, plus half the wind speed. So a bumpy thermal in ten knots of wind would have me starting turning fifteen knots faster than normal. As you get the feel for the thermal you might pull those margins in.

Running onto a ridge I arrive with all my safety margins and only ease them back if I'm really confident that things are better than I thought. Like most pilots who fly along ridges on unstable days I have been rolled towards the hill a few times. Nothing outrageous, but it gets the heart rate up when your are holding the stick hard on the stop and still not rolling away. I do notice many pilots aren't really using full control movement. I tell them the reason we have control stops is to give you somewhere to rest your hand while you wait for a response.

Using the rudder is important, but you do not want to get uncoordinated. Full aileron is likely to want a matching amount of rudder though. This varies from glider to glider and with speed, so you need to know your aircraft.

> And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
> addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
> - no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
> pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.

Judging clearance is a skill that can take a while to learn. Some mountains lack features that indicate scale. Mountains with trees, roads, vehicles etc offer scale that people are used to. Bare rocks don't.

Best to be close enough to be in the lift, but not closer. I only rock polish on weak predictable days where you ned to be close to get lift. Gentle ridge lift or weak anabatic flows. If it's unstable you need a lot more room to allow for those thermals that might roll you into the hill. In thermic conditions I'd allow almost a full turn of space, maybe 150 - 300 meters. That's horizontal clearance. For vertical clearance you need to consider the slope and escape routes. Being close to steep slopes is generally safer than shallow slopes because your escape routes get more clearance sooner.

> Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
> more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
> myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
> good piloting?

It's good piloting if you don't crash and bad luck if you do?

> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

--
Phil Plane
Omarama

[Kandiru]

On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 10:57:02 AM UTC-4, soaringjac wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 7:40:37 AM UTC-7, 6PK wrote:
> > On Monday, July 20, 2020 at 8:18:18 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > > On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 3:36:35 PM UTC-5, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 2:00:21 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > > > > It’s so alarming to see so many guys on YouTube flying super close to ridges at such low airspeeds.
> > > > Youtube Video's often border between deceptive and dangerous.
> > > >
> > > > Pilots may be flying closer than they should. Might be why they are taking a video, or doing so for the video. Camera's do tend to make people do stupid things.
> > > >
> > > > But also Camera's often make it look like they are closer than they really are. Inexperienced pilots watching these might think this is normal and what they should be doing.
> > > >
> > > > Getting some time with and experienced pilot and experiencing it 1st hand so you can see what really is safe and what isn't is invaluable if not life saving.
> > > >
> > > > Brian
> > >
> > > How about this looking close to the rocks (5:25)?
> > > https://youtu.be/48P-Y1JF2K0
> >
> > ...but what kind of sunlight readable phone/PNA navigation device were they using? I thought it was impressive.
>
> Looks like XCSoar on a Samsung phone. I run XCSoar on a Samsung Galaxy S7 phone and it is amazing. Super bright and extremely sunlight readable in the bright California sun. Battery life on the phone is at least 5 hours.

Exactly, I use the same setup on Condor 2. Sorry to troll, I am an aspiring COVID glider pilot, hope to get my virtual badges on condor-club.eu soon. Reading your stories and watching the YouTube videos is inspirational. Like others stated, my biggest fear on mountain soaring was how close I had to get to the trees to get lift, that is when I don't box myself into a dead end on the downwind side:)

[[email protected]]

On Friday, July 24, 2020 at 10:15:32 PM UTC+1, wrote:

Snip:
"> Judging clearance is a skill that can take a while to learn. Some mountains lack features that indicate scale. Mountains with trees, roads, vehicles etc offer scale that people are used to. Bare rocks don't.
>
>Phil Plane
> Omarama

A geometrical observation about judging distance from a mountain slope:

If you travel at 60 knots ground speed in a straight line along a mountain slope (or past any point or mast etc) then for every second that it takes for a chosen reference point to pass from 45 degrees ahead to directly opposite then you (not the wing tip) are 100 feet from the reference point. At 90 knots it would be 150 feet and so on. This applies in any plane so it works for crossing over ridges as well.

Obviously you can't judge this exactly but it is surprisingly easy to get in the ball park and I am sure it is the relative rate of motion that experienced mountain pilots intuitively use. I figured it out during my first trip to the Pyrenees after I thought I was flying close to a steep featureless rocky ridge and was overtaken on the inside by a rather small looking Duo Discus. I realised that I needed a way to calibrate my inexperienced judgement where there were no size reference features.

John Galloway

[John Carlyle]

Regarding un-commanded upsets, I’m surprised only two people have so far written to say they have experienced them. Flying out of Mifflin, I’ve had about ten 80+ degree rolls over the last 10 years. They were all on strong (30 kt) ridge days with a bit of wave about, mainly in mid-May, but also in mid-October. Most occurred on Bald Eagle, but some were also on Tussey and Jacks. They mainly happened several thousand feet above ridge top, when I was either climbing to get back to Mifflin, or just loitering until the crosswind subsided a bit.

This is how I described one such experience, which happened at the end of my Diamond Distance flight in October 2010: “As I flew into the FAI finish sector Doris Grove radioed me her congratulations, then told me that I needed to stay airborne for another hour or so, as it was too turbulent and windy to land. Thus began the worst hour of flight I’ve ever experienced. The thermals were vigorous and plentiful this late in the day, and they were combining with the wind to roil the air in a way I’d never seen before. Suddenly the left wing went down, rolling me towards the ridge, fortunately some 2,000 feet below. Full right aileron and full right rudder did nothing to stop the roll, and the bank kept getting steeper. After what seemed like an hour but was probably about 10 seconds, my LS-8 responded and rolled level. But twenty seconds later the process repeated, this time to the right. Rapid jolts shook us violently in between and during the un-commanded rolls. I was more passenger than pilot, in the uncaring grip of an extremely powerful Nature.�

I can categorically state that violent upsets can happen. On strong ridge days, especially when wave is around, I’ve found it prudent to stay well above the ridge top.

-John

------------------

On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 9:06:49 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Nick Kennedy wrote on 7/23/2020 1:27 PM:
> > Just last Saturday flying out of Nephi Ut in the flats of the valley over Yuba Res I had a thermal kick me into a 80 degree bank.
> > Full roll control wasn't enough so I pushed to about .1 G and full ruddered it back level. I've done this about 100 times in my soaring career.
>
> Wow! That's never happened to me! In 6000+ hours of flying all over North America
> - never have I been pushed more than 20 degrees or so. Just luck can't explain
> that difference, so I wonder what we are doing differently that I've never been in
> danger, and you've been there 100 times.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

"Being close to steep slopes is generally safer than shallow slopes because your escape routes get more clearance sooner."

I wonder how steep the terrain was? The Whites can produce brutal air currents. It;s like the blink of an eye and you. Scares you enough to leave some some extra escape room on those days. Terrain is a very complex thing. It seems ( I am speculating here) that the terrain where the accident occurred was not very steep.

Can someone confirm?

[Dan Marotta]

I've been upset on wave days in my Stemme.Â* Diving towards the leeward
slope of the mountains east of Albuquerque and pulling up when I felt a
bit of lift, the Stemme rolled uncontrollably to the right and the nose
started down.Â* I responded with forward stick and left aileron and
rudder.Â* The aircraft responded appropriately. This has happened more
than once but is not unexpected - just keep sufficient altitude for the
recovery.

On 7/25/2020 1:17 PM, John Carlyle wrote:
> Regarding un-commanded upsets, I’m surprised only two people have so far written to say they have experienced them. Flying out of Mifflin, I’ve had about ten 80+ degree rolls over the last 10 years. They were all on strong (30 kt) ridge days with a bit of wave about, mainly in mid-May, but also in mid-October. Most occurred on Bald Eagle, but some were also on Tussey and Jacks. They mainly happened several thousand feet above ridge top, when I was either climbing to get back to Mifflin, or just loitering until the crosswind subsided a bit.
>
> This is how I described one such experience, which happened at the end of my Diamond Distance flight in October 2010: “As I flew into the FAI finish sector Doris Grove radioed me her congratulations, then told me that I needed to stay airborne for another hour or so, as it was too turbulent and windy to land. Thus began the worst hour of flight I’ve ever experienced. The thermals were vigorous and plentiful this late in the day, and they were combining with the wind to roil the air in a way I’d never seen before. Suddenly the left wing went down, rolling me towards the ridge, fortunately some 2,000 feet below. Full right aileron and full right rudder did nothing to stop the roll, and the bank kept getting steeper. After what seemed like an hour but was probably about 10 seconds, my LS-8 responded and rolled level. But twenty seconds later the process repeated, this time to the right. Rapid jolts shook us violently in between and during the un-commanded rolls. I was more passenger than pilot, in the uncaring grip of an extremely powerful Nature.�
>
> I can categorically state that violent upsets can happen. On strong ridge days, especially when wave is around, I’ve found it prudent to stay well above the ridge top.
>
> -John
>
> ------------------
>
> On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 9:06:49 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Nick Kennedy wrote on 7/23/2020 1:27 PM:
>>> Just last Saturday flying out of Nephi Ut in the flats of the valley over Yuba Res I had a thermal kick me into a 80 degree bank.
>>> Full roll control wasn't enough so I pushed to about .1 G and full ruddered it back level. I've done this about 100 times in my soaring career.
>> Wow! That's never happened to me! In 6000+ hours of flying all over North America
>> - never have I been pushed more than 20 degrees or so. Just luck can't explain
>> that difference, so I wonder what we are doing differently that I've never been in
>> danger, and you've been there 100 times.
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

--
Dan, 5J

[BobW]

On 7/25/2020 1:17 PM, John Carlyle wrote:
> Regarding un-commanded upsets, I’m surprised only two people have so far
> written to say they have experienced them. Flying out of Mifflin, I’ve had
> about ten 80+ degree rolls over the last 10 years. They were all on strong
> (30 kt) ridge days with a bit of wave about, mainly in mid-May, but also in
> mid-October...

OK, I'll chime in here with some observations and thoughts...most of my stick
time gained in/above CO's Rocky Mountains out of Boulder.

Uncommanded rolls - my largest excursion was in rotor about halfway in from
the Front Range (CO) to the continental divide, easily estimated (from
instrument screws relative to the horizon) at 45-degrees, and counteracted by
hard (full?) opposite stick along with "a sustained (definitely!) full-rudder
stomp" by way of encouraging the down-swinging tip to reverse its motion. That
particular instance "got my attention" simply because: 1) it took a finite
amount of time to reach max-roll condition; and 2) I'd never rolled a plane
and had no desire to just then, despite thousands of feet of ground clearance.
15 meter 1st-generation glass.

Uncommanded pitch excursions - a tougher call in terms of "largest" simply
because - for most glider pilots - any "serious view of the ground" through
the forward canopy almost certainly feels like "going straight down, a claim
supported by ~2k hours in large-deflection-only flapped ships (no landing
spoilers) and plenty of "written stuff" seen in "Soaring" mag from pilots new
to 'em (particularly from "the Dick Schreder/HP-series" era. MY HP-14 had a
descent angle of an estimated 45-degrees along with an appropriately steep
nose-down angle in even the slightest headwind. I can't recall ever getting
uncommandedly pitched down to a similar degree, and the V-tailed HP was
peculiarly prone to pitching (generally smoothly) nose-down in the presence of
strong thermals.

Most violent air - my 1st microburst encounter. Seriously frightening/ugly!
Prolly a 50:50 crash/no-crash situation were I Tom Hanks in the movie
Groundhog Day. Duration was from ~2k'agl to ~3'agl, most of the time with me
unable to continuously focus my eyes on anything before the next
air-induced-jolt defocused things. Uncertain whether I was going to
overshoot/undershoot a 3,000' long field until on v-e-r-y short final. Had
actual diffyoogulty *locating* the field due to violence-induced focusing
impairment. The whole dismal affair was sufficiently stressful/lengthy that a
corner of my brain wanted the stress to "just end" *while* it was
occurring...closest I ever came to resignation to an unwanted fate.

Only once did I ever put myself in a position where (briefly - but Seriously
Alarmingly!) the very real possibility of hitting a ridge seemed
"not-vanishingly small." (Kids, definitely not recommended!) Caused by
"prematurely-circling" toward a ridge in sinking air that I'd presumed was
going to be rising. Seriously Stupid, all around.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, July 25, 2020 at 3:17:35 PM UTC-4, John Carlyle wrote:
> ... Suddenly the left wing went down, rolling me towards the ridge,
> fortunately some 2,000 feet below. Full right aileron and full right rudder
> did nothing to stop the roll, and the bank kept getting steeper. After what
> seemed like an hour but was probably about 10 seconds, my LS-8 responded
> and rolled level.

So you immediately moved upwind and climbed in the smooth wave, right? ;-)

[bumper[_4_]]

On Friday, July 24, 2020 at 11:57:32 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> I was on a hiatus from soaring when Geoff Lyons had his accident. Can someone please tell me what happened?

Not sure of all the details. I was involved in the search flying my Husky with Fred LaSor in the back seat. We were over on the Sierra, west of the Whites, when the wreckage was spotted from Jim Herds Bonanza. Too tight and turbulent for them to get a good view so they asked me to overfly. This was on the west side of the Whites approaching the north end.

After overflying high to spot the wreck, we flew in northbound at probably 100 feet AGL. As we approached we crossed a canyon that was maybe 100 to 150' south of the crash site, as we flew over that small canyon there was significant turbulence (got Fred's attention). Other glide pilots said there was often severe localized turbulence there and they gave that spot wide berth.

We were mostly looking for signs of life, and sadly there were none. Looked to be a high energy impact, probably at a steep angle as IIRC the wings were broken but perpendicular to the fuselage.

[2G]

On Saturday, July 25, 2020 at 12:18:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> "Being close to steep slopes is generally safer than shallow slopes because your escape routes get more clearance sooner."
>
> I wonder how steep the terrain was? The Whites can produce brutal air currents. It;s like the blink of an eye and you. Scares you enough to leave some some extra escape room on those days. Terrain is a very complex thing. It seems ( I am speculating here) that the terrain where the accident occurred was not very steep.
>
> Can someone confirm?

The slope is medium in that it isn't vertical. In places it is very steep, as near vertical.

After giving it some thought, I think that Marak was thermalling up the slope in a left turn, below the ridge top, when he saw his opportunity to clear the ridge and circle directly over it in the strongest lift. I have done this many times, but this time he got a gust that stalled the low (left) wing and he dropped. He almost would have cleared the ridge, but did not. End of story.

Tom

[2G]

On Saturday, July 25, 2020 at 12:18:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> "Being close to steep slopes is generally safer than shallow slopes because your escape routes get more clearance sooner."
>
> I wonder how steep the terrain was? The Whites can produce brutal air currents. It;s like the blink of an eye and you. Scares you enough to leave some some extra escape room on those days. Terrain is a very complex thing. It seems ( I am speculating here) that the terrain where the accident occurred was not very steep.
>
> Can someone confirm?

The slope is medium in that it isn't vertical. In places it is very steep, as near vertical.

After giving it some thought, I think that Marak was thermalling up the slope in a left turn, below the ridge top, when he saw his opportunity to clear the ridge and circle directly over it in the strongest lift. I have done this many times, but this time he got a gust that stalled the low (left) wing and he dropped. He almost would have cleared the ridge, but did not. End of story.

Tom

[John Sinclair[_5_]]

On Saturday, July 25, 2020 at 9:56:26 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, July 25, 2020 at 12:18:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > "Being close to steep slopes is generally safer than shallow slopes because your escape routes get more clearance sooner."
> >
> > I wonder how steep the terrain was? The Whites can produce brutal air currents. It;s like the blink of an eye and you. Scares you enough to leave some some extra escape room on those days. Terrain is a very complex thing. It seems ( I am speculating here) that the terrain where the accident occurred was not very steep.
> >
> > Can someone confirm?
> The slope is medium in that it isn't vertical. In places it is very steep, as near vertical.
>
> After giving it some thought, I think that Marak was thermalling up the slope in a left turn, below the ridge top, when he saw his opportunity to clear the ridge and circle directly over it in the strongest lift. I have done this many times, but this time he got a gust that stalled the low (left) wing and he dropped. He almost would have cleared the ridge, but did not. End of story.
>
> Tom
My son is backpacking the Sierras right now and just reported, “winds were crazy all night, huge gusts then, just stop at 8700’ ridge top�.............this got me remembering hiking up Siegel Mountain, near Minden to place a marker where Jack Bamberg crashed for unknown reasons. About noon it was dead calm, then the wind would come up a good 15 knots, then suddenly stop. Fifteen minutes later it would do it again. The winds were up slope and probably thermals. Next day we placed another marker on the White Mountains just east of Bishop at about noon. Very gentle up slope wind. One of the guys brought along a roll of toilet paper and threw up a handful of single sheets at the edge of the little plateau where Tom Madigan crashed. The paper rose up in the gentle up slope winds and then curled over and came back down to the sagebrush!................we never really know what’s going on just outside our little cockpit!
JJ

[2G]

On Saturday, August 22, 2020 at 8:45:10 AM UTC-7, John Sinclair wrote:
> On Saturday, July 25, 2020 at 9:56:26 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 25, 2020 at 12:18:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > "Being close to steep slopes is generally safer than shallow slopes because your escape routes get more clearance sooner."
> > >
> > > I wonder how steep the terrain was? The Whites can produce brutal air currents. It;s like the blink of an eye and you. Scares you enough to leave some some extra escape room on those days. Terrain is a very complex thing. It seems ( I am speculating here) that the terrain where the accident occurred was not very steep.
> > >
> > > Can someone confirm?
> > The slope is medium in that it isn't vertical. In places it is very steep, as near vertical.
> >
> > After giving it some thought, I think that Marak was thermalling up the slope in a left turn, below the ridge top, when he saw his opportunity to clear the ridge and circle directly over it in the strongest lift. I have done this many times, but this time he got a gust that stalled the low (left) wing and he dropped. He almost would have cleared the ridge, but did not. End of story.
> >
> > Tom
> My son is backpacking the Sierras right now and just reported, “winds were crazy all night, huge gusts then, just stop at 8700’ ridge top�.............this got me remembering hiking up Siegel Mountain, near Minden to place a marker where Jack Bamberg crashed for unknown reasons. About noon it was dead calm, then the wind would come up a good 15 knots, then suddenly stop. Fifteen minutes later it would do it again. The winds were up slope and probably thermals. Next day we placed another marker on the White Mountains just east of Bishop at about noon. Very gentle up slope wind. One of the guys brought along a roll of toilet paper and threw up a handful of single sheets at the edge of the little plateau where Tom Madigan crashed. The paper rose up in the gentle up slope winds and then curled over and came back down to the sagebrush!................we never really know what’s going on just outside our little cockpit!
> JJ

There was another crash at Ely a few years ago under similar gusty wind conditions. The pilot lost control of the glider and successfully bailed out. Mountains seem to amplify the magnitude of the gusts. Staying on the ground during on these days is clearly prudent. I have said before, I would rather be down here (on the ground) wishing I were up there (flying), than be up there wishing I was down here.

Tom