Tow Pilots and CFIG Wanted at Sandhill Soaring Club (Michigan)

[Christopher Schrader[_2_]]

Volunteer Tow-pilots and CFIG wanted to join Sandhill Soaring Club, a 501(c)(3) not profit gliding club located in Gregory, Michigan, about 30 mins from Ann Arbor, Lansing, and western portions of Greater Metro Detroit.

Fleet: (1) SGS-233; (1) ASK-13; (2) Grob 103 Twin II; (1) DG-505; (1) Open Cirrus; (1) Std. Cirrus; (1) Scheibe SF-25C Motorglider; (1) Piper Pawnee towplane; (1) L-19 Bird Dog towplane (Cessna 305A); (1) Winch

Note About the Fleet: Competent pilot-members may rent club aircraft for use at camps, glider club fly-ins, and SSA Sanctioned Regional and National Contests.

Non-refundable Initiation Fee: $500
Monthly dues for CFIG and Tow-Pilot Specialist Members: $22.50/month

Standard Tow Rate (2,000' AGL): $22

Glider Rates vary from $20-50/hr; see: https://www.sandhillsoaring.org/dues-fees

Website: www.sandhillsoaring.org

For more information, Contact Chris Schrader at (612) 210-5524

[Christopher Schrader[_2_]]

Note: All flight instruction is FREE to club members at Sandhill Soaring Club.

[Charles Longley]

So you want someone to provide professional services for free?

[[email protected][_2_]]

Or....free instruction with a professional attitude. I gave instruction for 35 years, very professionally. Probably because I got it for free. Our club required those seeking a license to go to a Commercial School. We had a limit to how Professional we wanted to be.

[Christopher Schrader[_2_]]

On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 2:35:16 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> So you want someone to provide professional services for free?

We are a non-profit gliding club. Our CFIG do provide professional services for free and are every bit as professional as any CFIG I've ever met during my 20 years of gliding at, at least, five gliding clubs and one commercial operation. These individuals are not in it for the money rather the joy of sharing the sport with others and giving back to their community.

I have no criticism for commercial operations, in fact they're needed! Some clubs allow CFIG to make private arrangements with their members to instruct as independent contractors. I have no issue with that either. Our club chooses not to go that route and prefers to remain a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization.

- Chris Schrader

[Christopher Schrader[_2_]]

> > So you want someone to provide professional services for free?
> We are a non-profit gliding club. Our CFIG do provide professional services for free and are every bit as professional as any CFIG I've ever met during my 20 years of gliding at, at least, five gliding clubs and one commercial operation.

Correction... 4 commercial glider operations located in FL, MN, VT, and ID.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 3:27:24 PM UTC-4, Christopher Schrader wrote:
> On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 2:35:16 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> > So you want someone to provide professional services for free?
>
> We are a non-profit gliding club. Our CFIG do provide professional services for free and are every bit as professional as any CFIG I've ever met during my 20 years of gliding at, at least, five gliding clubs and one commercial operation. These individuals are not in it for the money rather the joy of sharing the sport with others and giving back to their community.
>
> I have no criticism for commercial operations, in fact they're needed! Some clubs allow CFIG to make private arrangements with their members to instruct as independent contractors. I have no issue with that either. Our club chooses not to go that route and prefers to remain a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization.
>
> - Chris Schrader

Chris, you must consider who you are dealing with, R is a legend in his own mind! I once asked him what he had done for soaring and his reply was, "NOTHING", I guess he was correct.

[[email protected][_2_]]

Hmmm...seems I left the word ‘free’ out a sentence.Hmmmm.....Bob is right in one respect....when compared to so many, I have done nothing. And that is what was said...to Bob....when he asked me “what have you done (for Soaring).” I said “nothing”. Bob has done a lot. And many should thank him.
R

[[email protected]]

when he asked me “what have you done (for Soaring).” I said “nothing”. Bob has done a lot. And many should thank him.
> R

Well, let's be charitable. If you take tows from a commercial operator and tow pilot or buy soaring equipment, you are helping a few folks postpone starvation. You aren't eliminating it, but you are delaying it.

[Charles Longley]

There is no reason your club can’t stay a 501 (c) 3 and still have the CFI’s be paid. I am associated with two clubs in the PNW. One insists that there will be no remuneration for the CFI’s. The other says the students shall pay the CFI’s a set hourly rate. Which club do you think has no issues having multiple CFI’s available each weekend and which club is lucky to have one? Which club do you think puts out more rated pilots? How many prospective students have left the club that doesn’t have available CFI’s?

Charlie

[Bob Youngblood]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 9:51:46 PM UTC-4, Charles Longley wrote:
> There is no reason your club can’t stay a 501 (c) 3 and still have the CFI’s be paid. I am associated with two clubs in the PNW. One insists that there will be no remuneration for the CFI’s. The other says the students shall pay the CFI’s a set hourly rate. Which club do you think has no issues having multiple CFI’s available each weekend and which club is lucky to have one? Which club do you think puts out more rated pilots? How many prospective students have left the club that doesn’t have available CFI’s?
>
> Charlie

Our club like so many has been faced with the same scenario, shall CFIG's be paid. I will only speak for myself, when I started the club this issue came up at our first meeting. Seemed that only one or two were insistent on being financially rewarded for their so called professional services. Our club BOD at the time consisted of our CFIG and he along with the remaining members said that no payment for CFIG's. We only lost one or two prospective members that felt that they could not be part of the club without being compensated.
What about the tow pilots, if you compensate the CFIG, then what does the tow pilot get? Our very first year one tow pilot did over one thousand tows and never asked for a penny.
We have a CFIG that drives from Ocala to Vero for the purpose of helping our club, when he gives power instruction at his own airport or flight reviews he ask the recipient to make a donation to TCSC, now can you get any better than that?
So, I guess the whole point is club vs commercial operation, I too learned to fly gliders at a commercial operation, afterwards moved over to Thermal Research and learned how to soar. Commercial operations do a lot to keep soaring viable, my hat is off to all of these operations. They can deal with personalities much differently than a club. They put their money on the line for their business, much to be said for that. People sometimes forget and lose perspective as to what a club is all about, giving back. I hope when I decide to walk away I can say that I made a difference. Bob

[Charles Longley]

Of the two clubs I was talking about. The one that has the students pay the instructors also pays their tow pilots. They both have two tow planes. Guess which one has both tow planes manned every weekend and which one has the tow planes sit idle on good soaring weekends due to lack of a tow pilot?

[Charles Longley]

On a side note some of the tow pilots and CFI’s donate their fees to the club that pays them, some do not. Depends on their individual situation.
My point is it’s all well and good to give back to aviation. But not all people feel that way. I’ve seen a couple of really good instructors and tow pilots leave the one club due to lack of remuneration. It doesn’t do any good to have free instruction if it’s not available.

[Todd]

I always find it interesting that the students pay (1) Initiation Dues (2) Annual Dues (3) Glider rental (4) Tow fees and then the club wants to give away the CFI (and the tow pilot) training costs. I guess the CFI-G really isn't worth that much (but then, try showing up for a check ride with no CFI logbook endorsements and see how far you get).

CFI's have REAL expenses for all that free stuff the club wants to give away. e.g. Travel expenses to the airport (not insignificant in some cases); FIRC; Liability insurance; Lost opportunity to fly their own ship (if they own one); Payment of club dues like every other member.

I am not advocating "market" rates for your local CFI-G but some compensation is certainly warranted.

Todd
CFI-G
exp JUL-2022

[joel!!!!@yahoo,com]

On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 10:27:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Volunteer Tow-pilots and CFIG wanted to join Sandhill Soaring Club, a 501(c)(3) not profit gliding club located in Gregory, Michigan, about 30 mins from Ann Arbor, Lansing, and western portions of Greater Metro Detroit.
>
> Fleet: (1) SGS-233; (1) ASK-13; (2) Grob 103 Twin II; (1) DG-505; (1) Open Cirrus; (1) Std. Cirrus; (1) Scheibe SF-25C Motorglider; (1) Piper Pawnee towplane; (1) L-19 Bird Dog towplane (Cessna 305A); (1) Winch
>
> Note About the Fleet: Competent pilot-members may rent club aircraft for use at camps, glider club fly-ins, and SSA Sanctioned Regional and National Contests.
>
> Non-refundable Initiation Fee: $500
> Monthly dues for CFIG and Tow-Pilot Specialist Members: $22.50/month
>
> Standard Tow Rate (2,000' AGL): $22
>
> Glider Rates vary from $20-50/hr; see: https://www.sandhillsoaring.org/dues-fees
>
> Website: www.sandhillsoaring.org
>
> For more information, Contact Chris Schrader at (612) 210-5524
I usually don't post to chat boards but in this case I will - apologies if this is a repeat-- I started flying gliders at Schweizer Soaring school, Elmira, NY circa 1965, fell in love with the sport, after a three hiatus returned to the States and joined HHSC Harris Hill Soaring Corporation. There was an established monthly duty roaster according to member qualifications. The Junior members were in charge on their own group with adult supervision - instructions was for free, club owned sailplanes had minimal fees. Income was generated primarily from tourist income. I worked my way up the ranks to become a CFIG the payback by instructing for free. We all pitched in where we could -- I have been out of soaring for decades- age and health but -- ARE THE GOOD OLD DAYS GONE?

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 12:34:29 PM UTC-4, joel!!!!@yahoo,com wrote:
> ARE THE GOOD OLD DAYS GONE?

Good old days are still here. I instruct & tow for free, just like you (and many others) did for me. Thanks Joel.

Evan Ludeman
Post Mills Soaring Club

[Bob Youngblood]

On Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 12:34:29 PM UTC-4, joel!!!!@yahoo,com wrote:
> On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 10:27:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Volunteer Tow-pilots and CFIG wanted to join Sandhill Soaring Club, a 501(c)(3) not profit gliding club located in Gregory, Michigan, about 30 mins from Ann Arbor, Lansing, and western portions of Greater Metro Detroit.
> >
> > Fleet: (1) SGS-233; (1) ASK-13; (2) Grob 103 Twin II; (1) DG-505; (1) Open Cirrus; (1) Std. Cirrus; (1) Scheibe SF-25C Motorglider; (1) Piper Pawnee towplane; (1) L-19 Bird Dog towplane (Cessna 305A); (1) Winch
> >
> > Note About the Fleet: Competent pilot-members may rent club aircraft for use at camps, glider club fly-ins, and SSA Sanctioned Regional and National Contests.
> >
> > Non-refundable Initiation Fee: $500
> > Monthly dues for CFIG and Tow-Pilot Specialist Members: $22.50/month
> >
> > Standard Tow Rate (2,000' AGL): $22
> >
> > Glider Rates vary from $20-50/hr; see: https://www.sandhillsoaring.org/dues-fees
> >
> > Website: www.sandhillsoaring.org
> >
> > For more information, Contact Chris Schrader at (612) 210-5524
> I usually don't post to chat boards but in this case I will - apologies if this is a repeat-- I started flying gliders at Schweizer Soaring school, Elmira, NY circa 1965, fell in love with the sport, after a three hiatus returned to the States and joined HHSC Harris Hill Soaring Corporation. There was an established monthly duty roaster according to member qualifications.. The Junior members were in charge on their own group with adult supervision - instructions was for free, club owned sailplanes had minimal fees. Income was generated primarily from tourist income. I worked my way up the ranks to become a CFIG the payback by instructing for free. We all pitched in where we could -- I have been out of soaring for decades- age and health but -- ARE THE GOOD OLD DAYS GONE?

Joel, THANK YOU! Looking back at my early years we had truly professional instructors and tow pilots. Paul Crowell, aka Pablo was our go to tow pilot and Bill Harris was our instructor, and they never charges a penny, and yes, they were as professional as you could find.
Recently I made it possible for a young man to get his tail wheel endorsement, tow endorsement and his CFIG. It was satisfying to me and my wife, who also enjoys flying gliders to be able to provide something for someone who could not afford to do so himself. Every weekend this young individual is at the glider club either jumping in the Pawnee to tow or giving free instruction for our members. The good days are not gone !

[MNLou]

It is interesting that Tow Pilots are charged an initiation fee and monthly dues.

I'm pretty sure ours fly for free. Without them, we are grounded.

Lou

[BobW]

On 7/15/2020 10:34 AM, joel!!!!@yahoo,com wrote:
> On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 10:27:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>> Volunteer Tow-pilots and CFIG wanted to join Sandhill Soaring Club, a
>> 501(c)(3) not profit gliding club located in Gregory, Michigan, about 30
>> mins from Ann Arbor, Lansing, and western portions of Greater Metro
>> Detroit.
>>
>> Fleet: (1) SGS-233; (1) ASK-13; (2) Grob 103 Twin II; (1) DG-505; (1)
>> Open Cirrus; (1) Std. Cirrus; (1) Scheibe SF-25C Motorglider; (1) Piper
>> Pawnee towplane; (1) L-19 Bird Dog towplane (Cessna 305A); (1) Winch
>>
>> Note About the Fleet: Competent pilot-members may rent club aircraft for
>> use at camps, glider club fly-ins, and SSA Sanctioned Regional and
>> National Contests.
>>
>> Non-refundable Initiation Fee: $500 Monthly dues for CFIG and Tow-Pilot
>> Specialist Members: $22.50/month
>>
>> Standard Tow Rate (2,000' AGL): $22
>>
>> Glider Rates vary from $20-50/hr; see:
>> https://www.sandhillsoaring.org/dues-fees
>>
>> Website: www.sandhillsoaring.org
>>
>> For more information, Contact Chris Schrader at (612) 210-5524
> I usually don't post to chat boards but in this case I will - apologies if
> this is a repeat-- I started flying gliders at Schweizer Soaring school,
> Elmira, NY circa 1965, fell in love with the sport, after a three hiatus
> returned to the States and joined HHSC Harris Hill Soaring Corporation.
> There was an established monthly duty roaster according to member
> qualifications. The Junior members were in charge on their own group with
> adult supervision - instructions was for free, club owned sailplanes had
> minimal fees. Income was generated primarily from tourist income. I worked
> my way up the ranks to become a CFIG the payback by instructing for free.
> We all pitched in where we could -- I have been out of soaring for decades-
> age and health but -- ARE THE GOOD OLD DAYS GONE?

My short-form take is, "Yes!" (They are gone. Time moves on. Things change.
Etc. As to "Why?", everyone has their list.) That said: I received my
instruction free; it's still available in some (percentagely preponderant?)
clubs; I'm glad it is!

With "the obligatory - and in this instance, regretful (as opposed to
unapologetic!) - head-nod" toward contributing to thread-drift, I'll throw in
my overview on what IMO is "a somewhat religious topic" within the soaring
community...i.e. one's view is "faith-based."

FWIW...

There seems to be two schools of thought regarding the question: Should club
instructors provide their services for free, or be allowed to "charge for
professional services rendered"? Both have already been put forth in this thread:

- The "Should be free/Give-backers" school, and;
- To not allow "professionals to charge professionally" is: an insult; taking
advantage of them; puts the future of the club at risk; etc.

IMO, there ain't no resolving the difference in opinions - they just are.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Christopher Schrader[_2_]]

On Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 2:30:51 PM UTC-4, MNLou wrote:
> It is interesting that Tow Pilots are charged an initiation fee and monthly dues.
>
> I'm pretty sure ours fly for free. Without them, we are grounded.
>
> Lou

Doesn't MSC require all of its members to buy a share or partial share of the corporation, which the club only partially returns when you leave?

I have to say our system seems to be working well for the club but I am not opposed to clubs that adopt the other school of thought... its rationale is logical and makes a lot of sense to me.

That said, you can never have enough tow pilots and CFIGs so I figure why not advertise our fleet. Tow pilots can also rent our two-seat Bird Dog for personal use at $85/hr wet so there's another bonus. :-)

I will say, I think our dues allow us to afford good equipment and for that I don't apologize to anyone. Our club is continuing to consolidate and improve its fleet and for that I'm grateful.

- Chris Schrader

[MNLou]

That changed a bit a couple of years ago Chris. Now, it's a $1500 "buy in" with $500 returned when you leave.

The $85 wet option on the Bird Dog is a nice benefit.

I wasn't criticizing. Just surprised that tow pilots are willing to pay for the privilege.

Lou

[Chris]

Interesting discussion. I am paid for teaching in my professional life, and I am very good at it. I'd happily teach flying too if it didn't COST me money to do so... break-even would be fine by me.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 16, 2020 at 3:22:18 PM UTC-7, Chris wrote:
> Interesting discussion. I am paid for teaching in my professional life, and I am very good at it. I'd happily teach flying too if it didn't COST me money to do so... break-even would be fine by me.

I'm a CFIG who enjoys instructing, and I do it in my leisure time, so I don't charge. I also received my own training in a Club, where the instruction I received was free, and I like to pay that back. For a professional full-time CFIG who needs to make a living, of course payment is necessary, and they may feel resentful to CFIGs who don't charge.

[RR]

Our club offers free instruction to the membership but has a token credit per instruction for the CFIG. One of our CFIGs had an interesting theory, that we should charge something to the student, could be only $5 but charge something. He did not care if the charge went to him, or just the club, but his feeling was that with some charge there was more perceived value to the student.

RR

[Bob Youngblood]

On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 8:52:11 AM UTC-4, RR wrote:
> Our club offers free instruction to the membership but has a token credit per instruction for the CFIG. One of our CFIGs had an interesting theory, that we should charge something to the student, could be only $5 but charge something. He did not care if the charge went to him, or just the club, but his feeling was that with some charge there was more perceived value to the student.
>
> RR

This is a very interesting thread, getting input and many different points of view. Ultimately clubs can decide how they handle the CFIG, Tow Pilot, Groundskeeper, Rest Room Cleaners, Hot Dog Griller Of The Day, and the list goes on and on. Always remember that the club affords the opportunity for all, not just a few. Tow Pilots and CFIG's can be replaced, but the club availability is limited, just look at the loss of clubs and soaring sites in the last few years.
Just last evening my phone rang and it was the young man that was mentioned earlier in this thread that got his CFIG, tail wheel endorsement and tow endorsement through our club. He called to inform me of the news that he was moving on next month for further expand his career in aviation, he will be flying charter cargo. After saying congratulations he informed me that the club was a great bright spot in his flying career and that he intends to stay connected with soaring wherever his journey takes him, I am just delighted that we made a difference. Bob

[[email protected]]

On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 10:27:22 AM UTC-7, Christopher Schrader wrote:
> Volunteer Tow-pilots and CFIG wanted to join Sandhill Soaring Club, a 501(c)(3) not profit gliding club located in Gregory, Michigan, about 30 mins from Ann Arbor, Lansing, and western portions of Greater Metro Detroit.
>
> Fleet: (1) SGS-233; (1) ASK-13; (2) Grob 103 Twin II; (1) DG-505; (1) Open Cirrus; (1) Std. Cirrus; (1) Scheibe SF-25C Motorglider; (1) Piper Pawnee towplane; (1) L-19 Bird Dog towplane (Cessna 305A); (1) Winch
>
> Note About the Fleet: Competent pilot-members may rent club aircraft for use at camps, glider club fly-ins, and SSA Sanctioned Regional and National Contests.
>
> Non-refundable Initiation Fee: $500
> Monthly dues for CFIG and Tow-Pilot Specialist Members: $22.50/month
>
> Standard Tow Rate (2,000' AGL): $22
>
> Glider Rates vary from $20-50/hr; see: https://www.sandhillsoaring.org/dues-fees
>
> Website: www.sandhillsoaring.org
>
> For more information, Contact Chris Schrader at (612) 210-5524

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 8:52:11 AM UTC-4, RR wrote:

(Regarding CFI's charging for instruction) . . . there is more perceived value to the student.

A reasonable charge for instructing and perceived value . . . that a might be a fact, not a theory.

Decades ago in Miami (1990's), I was charging $99 for a "mile high" tourist ride.
Tied up my towplane for over 30 minutes, making a relatively slow descent after release.
Some non-pilot tourists suffered through the relatively long tow for the first 10 minutes or so.
No gliders launched back on the ground until my towplane returned.
So I raised the price to $199 figuring that might discourage requests for mile high rides, especially on busy days.

Well, that resulted in increased demand for MORE mile high rides as the perceived value by customers was to book "the best ride" for more money.

Probably shouldn't offer mile high rides now in Marfa in far southwest Texas with our 5,000' msl airport elevation. Towing to over 10,000' would be a very long tow, including other considerations. Maybe I should offer 1/2 mile high flights and advertise as 777 meter rides.

Coincidentally, as I recall, Tom Knauff in Pennsylvania increased his price for a mile high ride around the same time as I did and saw the same result of more demand.

[F Gump]

On Sunday, July 19, 2020 at 4:36:31 PM UTC-7, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas wrote:
> On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 8:52:11 AM UTC-4, RR wrote:
>
> (Regarding CFI's charging for instruction) . . . there is more perceived value to the student.
>
> A reasonable charge for instructing and perceived value . . . that a might be a fact, not a theory.
>
> Decades ago in Miami (1990's), I was charging $99 for a "mile high" tourist ride.
> Tied up my towplane for over 30 minutes, making a relatively slow descent after release.
> Some non-pilot tourists suffered through the relatively long tow for the first 10 minutes or so.
> No gliders launched back on the ground until my towplane returned.
> So I raised the price to $199 figuring that might discourage requests for mile high rides, especially on busy days.
>
> Well, that resulted in increased demand for MORE mile high rides as the perceived value by customers was to book "the best ride" for more money.
>
> Probably shouldn't offer mile high rides now in Marfa in far southwest Texas with our 5,000' msl airport elevation. Towing to over 10,000' would be a very long tow, including other considerations. Maybe I should offer 1/2 mile high flights and advertise as 777 meter rides.
>
> Coincidentally, as I recall, Tom Knauff in Pennsylvania increased his price for a mile high ride around the same time as I did and saw the same result of more demand.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 16:36:29 -0700, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west
Texas wrote:

> Well, that resulted in increased demand for MORE mile high rides as the
> perceived value by customers was to book "the best ride" for more money.
>
That effect seems to be present in a lot of leasure and business
situations and has done for quite some time.

Back in the mid 80s one of our senior people was getting overloaded with
consultancy requests, so after some head scratching his daily fee was put
up by a large amount and, to everybody's surprise, the queue size for his
services immediately doubled.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

At Soar Maui, Hi we towed from sea level to over the top of Haleakala at around 11,000 ft. Did it day out, day in. Increased pricing on all flights several times without a sniffle from the tourists.

On Monday, July 20, 2020 at 5:10:09 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jul 2020 16:36:29 -0700, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west
> Texas wrote:
>
> > Well, that resulted in increased demand for MORE mile high rides as the
> > perceived value by customers was to book "the best ride" for more money.
> >
> That effect seems to be present in a lot of leasure and business
> situations and has done for quite some time.
>
> Back in the mid 80s one of our senior people was getting overloaded with
> consultancy requests, so after some head scratching his daily fee was put
> up by a large amount and, to everybody's surprise, the queue size for his
> services immediately doubled.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Christopher Schrader[_2_]]

On Sunday, July 19, 2020 at 7:36:31 PM UTC-4, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas wrote:
> On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 8:52:11 AM UTC-4, RR wrote:
>
> (Regarding CFI's charging for instruction) . . . there is more perceived value to the student.
>
> A reasonable charge for instructing and perceived value . . . that a might be a fact, not a theory.
>
> Decades ago in Miami (1990's), I was charging $99 for a "mile high" tourist ride.
> Tied up my towplane for over 30 minutes, making a relatively slow descent after release.
> Some non-pilot tourists suffered through the relatively long tow for the first 10 minutes or so.
> No gliders launched back on the ground until my towplane returned.
> So I raised the price to $199 figuring that might discourage requests for mile high rides, especially on busy days.
>
> Well, that resulted in increased demand for MORE mile high rides as the perceived value by customers was to book "the best ride" for more money.
>
> Probably shouldn't offer mile high rides now in Marfa in far southwest Texas with our 5,000' msl airport elevation. Towing to over 10,000' would be a very long tow, including other considerations. Maybe I should offer 1/2 mile high flights and advertise as 777 meter rides.
>
> Coincidentally, as I recall, Tom Knauff in Pennsylvania increased his price for a mile high ride around the same time as I did and saw the same result of more demand.

Burt,

I agree with your assertions. When Sandhill Soairng Club increased its fees we saw an uptick in gross sales too. Customers pay $140 for discovery flights, $200 for Mile High Rides, and $250 for a Mile High Ride in the DG-505 (they happily pay).

- Chris Schrader

[[email protected]]

On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 10:27:22 AM UTC-7, Christopher Schrader wrote:
> Volunteer Tow-pilots and CFIG wanted to join Sandhill Soaring Club, a 501(c)(3) not profit gliding club located in Gregory, Michigan, about 30 mins from Ann Arbor, Lansing, and western portions of Greater Metro Detroit.
>
> Fleet: (1) SGS-233; (1) ASK-13; (2) Grob 103 Twin II; (1) DG-505; (1) Open Cirrus; (1) Std. Cirrus; (1) Scheibe SF-25C Motorglider; (1) Piper Pawnee towplane; (1) L-19 Bird Dog towplane (Cessna 305A); (1) Winch
>
> Note About the Fleet: Competent pilot-members may rent club aircraft for use at camps, glider club fly-ins, and SSA Sanctioned Regional and National Contests.
>
> Non-refundable Initiation Fee: $500
> Monthly dues for CFIG and Tow-Pilot Specialist Members: $22.50/month
>
> Standard Tow Rate (2,000' AGL): $22
>
> Glider Rates vary from $20-50/hr; see: https://www.sandhillsoaring.org/dues-fees
>
> Website: www.sandhillsoaring.org
>


> For more information, Contact Chris Schrader at (612) 210-5524

Professional Pilots SHOULD be paid to fly. It costs thousands of dollars to acquire ratings, many hours of flying and study time, plus time working to acquire the money for these ratings. The person you are $crewing is the new pilot, the classic young time builder, who simply cannot afford to fly for free, you know BILLS, maybe even loans to pay for those flying ratings. If you are so lucky to be able to do this for free, I suggest you donate the $ you make to a scholarship for a kid to learn to fly. But please do not work at a Commercial operation for free. It cheapen the whole industry. Jmnsho.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 7:21:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 10:27:22 AM UTC-7, Christopher Schrader wrote:
> > Volunteer Tow-pilots and CFIG wanted to join Sandhill Soaring Club, a 501(c)(3) not profit gliding club located in Gregory, Michigan, about 30 mins from Ann Arbor, Lansing, and western portions of Greater Metro Detroit.
> >
> > Fleet: (1) SGS-233; (1) ASK-13; (2) Grob 103 Twin II; (1) DG-505; (1) Open Cirrus; (1) Std. Cirrus; (1) Scheibe SF-25C Motorglider; (1) Piper Pawnee towplane; (1) L-19 Bird Dog towplane (Cessna 305A); (1) Winch
> >
> > Note About the Fleet: Competent pilot-members may rent club aircraft for use at camps, glider club fly-ins, and SSA Sanctioned Regional and National Contests.
> >
> > Non-refundable Initiation Fee: $500
> > Monthly dues for CFIG and Tow-Pilot Specialist Members: $22.50/month
> >
> > Standard Tow Rate (2,000' AGL): $22
> >
> > Glider Rates vary from $20-50/hr; see: https://www.sandhillsoaring.org/dues-fees
> >
> > Website: www.sandhillsoaring.org
> >
>
>
> > For more information, Contact Chris Schrader at (612) 210-5524
>
> Professional Pilots SHOULD be paid to fly. It costs thousands of dollars to acquire ratings, many hours of flying and study time, plus time working to acquire the money for these ratings. The person you are $crewing is the new pilot, the classic young time builder, who simply cannot afford to fly for free, you know BILLS, maybe even loans to pay for those flying ratings.. If you are so lucky to be able to do this for free, I suggest you donate the $ you make to a scholarship for a kid to learn to fly. But please do not work at a Commercial operation for free. It cheapen the whole industry. Jmnsho.


I would offer another scenario. I am a commercially rated pilot and I flew rides Sundays at my glider port as part of giving back. I am retired and while I did accept some dollars on my block time, I never looked at what was going in nor did I file all my ride tickets. I had fun and I thought I could help mentor some of the younger pilots. Most did not take me up on the mentoring offer. I even offered to help them study to pass their written tests. Most pilots that work there are paid and it is their only source of income. I was not taking one of those jobs away. Each operation is different. I got more out of my flying for the FOB on my airport than they got from me! Plus I flew those days I would never go to the airport, 26 knot quartering tailwind take offs.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 11:15:55 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 7:21:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 10:27:22 AM UTC-7, Christopher Schrader wrote:
> > > Volunteer Tow-pilots and CFIG wanted to join Sandhill Soaring Club, a 501(c)(3) not profit gliding club located in Gregory, Michigan, about 30 mins from Ann Arbor, Lansing, and western portions of Greater Metro Detroit.
> > >
> > > Fleet: (1) SGS-233; (1) ASK-13; (2) Grob 103 Twin II; (1) DG-505; (1) Open Cirrus; (1) Std. Cirrus; (1) Scheibe SF-25C Motorglider; (1) Piper Pawnee towplane; (1) L-19 Bird Dog towplane (Cessna 305A); (1) Winch
> > >
> > > Note About the Fleet: Competent pilot-members may rent club aircraft for use at camps, glider club fly-ins, and SSA Sanctioned Regional and National Contests.
> > >
> > > Non-refundable Initiation Fee: $500
> > > Monthly dues for CFIG and Tow-Pilot Specialist Members: $22.50/month
> > >
> > > Standard Tow Rate (2,000' AGL): $22
> > >
> > > Glider Rates vary from $20-50/hr; see: https://www.sandhillsoaring.org/dues-fees
> > >
> > > Website: www.sandhillsoaring.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > > For more information, Contact Chris Schrader at (612) 210-5524
> >
> > Professional Pilots SHOULD be paid to fly. It costs thousands of dollars to acquire ratings, many hours of flying and study time, plus time working to acquire the money for these ratings. The person you are $crewing is the new pilot, the classic young time builder, who simply cannot afford to fly for free, you know BILLS, maybe even loans to pay for those flying ratings. If you are so lucky to be able to do this for free, I suggest you donate the $ you make to a scholarship for a kid to learn to fly. But please do not work at a Commercial operation for free. It cheapen the whole industry. Jmnsho.
>
>
> I would offer another scenario. I am a commercially rated pilot and I flew rides Sundays at my glider port as part of giving back. I am retired and while I did accept some dollars on my block time, I never looked at what was going in nor did I file all my ride tickets. I had fun and I thought I could help mentor some of the younger pilots. Most did not take me up on the mentoring offer. I even offered to help them study to pass their written tests. Most pilots that work there are paid and it is their only source of income. I was not taking one of those jobs away. Each operation is different. I got more out of my flying for the FOB on my airport than they got from me! Plus I flew those days I would never go to the airport, 26 knot quartering tailwind take offs.

I do believe that the big difference on being compensated or not is commercial operation vs club operation. Commercial operators have employees, clubs have members. Members contribute in many different ways, they all should have the success of the club as their main objective. Sure, we all have club members that somehow find ways to jump in a glider and go fly then get in the auto and drive away.
Recently I sent a member out the door because he refused to take a youth member for his earned lesson, telling the kid that he would not fly with him because he needed an evaluation on his progress. I informed this CFIG, 15 hour wonder that I would no longer tow him with my tow plane, now I wonder how he feels.

[Waveguru]

Now that's the club spirit!....

Boggs