A36 crash

[Dan Luke]

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050418X00470&key=1

A brand new one. Ouch. There go the insurance rates again.

[Hilton]

Dan Luke wrote:
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050418X00470&key=1
>
> A brand new one. Ouch. There go the insurance rates again.

Don't you mean "Ouch, there goes someone's Dad, someone's brother, someone's
son..."? (change sex if pilot was female)

Hilton

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Dan Luke wrote:
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050418X00470&key=1
>
> A brand new one. Ouch. There go the insurance rates again.


A fellow with a four month old private pilot's licence flying an A-36. I'll be
curious to find out what really happened. Preliminary findings are that it was
VMC at 2015 hours (getting dark?) and that it had just been serviced that day.
All sorts of possibilities come to mind.

It'll be a year before the NTSB releases final findings, and even then it'll
probably be wrong. My heartfelt condolences for those he left behind.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Montblack]

("Dan Luke" wrote)
> A brand new one. Ouch. There go the insurance rates again.


http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050418X00470&key=1

Accident occurred Wednesday, April 13, 2005 in South Bay, FL
Aircraft: Raytheon Bonanza, registration: N448T
Injuries: 1 Fatal.

Witnesses reported the pilot had flown the airplane to Tampa earlier in the
day to have it serviced. The airplane was on the return leg of a round-robin
flight when the accident occurred.

FAA records indicated that the airplane was issued an airworthiness
certificate on April 5, 2005. The airplane's estimated total time since new
(TTSN) is approximately 25 hours.


Montblack

[Dan Luke]

"Hilton" wrote:
>
> Don't you mean "Ouch, there goes someone's Dad, someone's brother,
someone's
> son..."? (change sex if pilot was female)

I expected this.

Of course it's tragic that someone lost his life; do you need me to point
that out?

This is a flying newsgroup where issues pertinent to the world of (mostly)
private airplanes are discussed. The loss of a $600k single-engine, piston
airplane is a significant event in this small world. It raises issues that
are on topic in this forum, that's why I posted the link and put it in the
context I did.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Dan Luke]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:
> A fellow with a four month old private pilot's licence flying an A-36.

Yes. That is a lot of airplane for a newbie. Plenty of people have bought a
Bo' and successfully learned to fly in it, but we don't know what this pilot
trained in.

> I'll be
> curious to find out what really happened. Preliminary findings are that it
was
> VMC at 2015 hours (getting dark?) and that it had just been serviced that
day.
> All sorts of possibilities come to mind.

Perhaps the kind of service performed is a clue. What if he had been having
trouble with the HSI, for instance?

> It'll be a year before the NTSB releases final findings, and even then
it'll
> probably be wrong.

They may not have much to go on besides circumstantial stuff.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[kontiki]

Having lots of money can buy you almost anything... except experience.

[kontiki]

Dan Luke wrote:
> This is a flying newsgroup where issues pertinent to the world of (mostly)
> private airplanes are discussed. The loss of a $600k single-engine, piston
> airplane is a significant event in this small world. It raises issues that
> are on topic in this forum, that's why I posted the link and put it in the
> context I did.

Exactly. The issues that this incident brings to light beyond the tragic deaths,
(which happen every single day X100 on the highways of this country) are what
your post was about. I (and 95% of the other readers) realize this are were
not "offended' by your post.

[John Clonts]

>Perhaps the kind of service performed is a clue. What if he had been
having
>trouble with the HSI, for instance?


Pretty hard to imagine how a faulty HSI would cause loss of control--
even in inadvertent IMC....

--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

kontiki wrote:
> Having lots of money can buy you almost anything... except experience.


Well, he's had an experience I'd just as soon avoid.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[George Patterson]

Dan Luke wrote:
>
> Perhaps the kind of service performed is a clue. What if he had been having
> trouble with the HSI, for instance?

The fact that the plane had an estimated 25 hours since new indicates strongly
that it was the standard 25 hour inspection.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Dan Luke]

"George Patterson" wrote:
> The fact that the plane had an estimated 25 hours since new indicates
strongly
> that it was the standard 25 hour inspection.
>

Really? I didn't know there *was* a standard 25 hour inspection. Shows you
what I know about buying a new airplane.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Dan Luke]

"John Clonts" wrote:
>
> Pretty hard to imagine how a faulty HSI would cause loss of control--
> even in inadvertent IMC....

Might that not contribute to the pilot's becming disoriented?

Anyway, that was just an example. It might have been the AI portion of the
display, instead.

If I had to bet, though, my money would be on simple spatial disorientation.
Until you've had it happen to you, you just don't know how easily you can
become completely fuzzled at night if you're not on your guard.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[jsmith]

Which we know as "Thurmond Munson Syndrom"

kontiki wrote:
> Having lots of money can buy you almost anything... except experience.

[George Patterson]

Dan Luke wrote:
>
> Really? I didn't know there *was* a standard 25 hour inspection.

As I recall, there's not much to it - mainly check a bunch of stuff to make sure
it's still firmly attached and change the breakin oil out if that hasn't already
been done. There's another one due at 50 hours since new.

That would also explain why he was flying it elsewhere for the work. Bet that
was the dealer who sold him the plane.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Roger]

On 20 Apr 2005 12:15:04 -0700, "John Clonts" >
wrote:

>>Perhaps the kind of service performed is a clue. What if he had been
>having
>>trouble with the HSI, for instance?
>
>
>Pretty hard to imagine how a faulty HSI would cause loss of control--
>even in inadvertent IMC....

You don't fly IFR do you? <:-))
An AI, or HSI usually fails slowly. It just slowly rolls over to one
side or the other. If the pilot doesn't have a good scan technique he
just rolls with it.

I've flown that area and had the weather get really hazy just before
dark. Still VMC, but enough to start relying on the gauges.
I've also gotten caught down there when the visability went for good
to nil in a very short time. It wasn't real problem, but if you aren't
prepared it can scare you and getting disoriented is a strong likely
hood.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Dan Luke]

"George Patterson" wrote:
> That would also explain why he was flying it elsewhere for the work. Bet
that
> was the dealer who sold him the plane.

Must be a hell of a feeling for those folks, going from being thrilled with
the sale to this.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[John Clonts]

>>Pretty hard to imagine how a faulty HSI would cause loss of
>>control->even in inadvertent IMC....
>
>You don't fly IFR do you? <:-))
>An AI, or HSI usually fails slowly. It just slowly rolls over to one
>side or the other. If the pilot doesn't have a good scan technique
>he just rolls with it.

Yes, but probably not as much as you. :)

Agreed about the AI, disagree about the HSI.

Seems to me there's a BIG difference in the implications and dangers
between AI failing, which can cause loss of airplane ATTITUDE control,
and and HSI or DG failing, which could cause some loss of NAVIGATIONAL
awareness.

If your Horizontal Situation Indicator gradually turns to an incorrect
heading, do you think you might gradually, unknowingly, increase your
bank angle trying to "follow" it? Or maybe the CDI going off-scale
would induce you into a 60-degree bank trying to "catch it"? I think
not.

--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Matt Whiting]

Roger wrote:

> On 20 Apr 2005 12:15:04 -0700, "John Clonts" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>>Perhaps the kind of service performed is a clue. What if he had been
>>
>>having
>>
>>>trouble with the HSI, for instance?
>>
>>
>>Pretty hard to imagine how a faulty HSI would cause loss of control--
>>even in inadvertent IMC....
>
>
> You don't fly IFR do you? <:-))
> An AI, or HSI usually fails slowly. It just slowly rolls over to one
> side or the other. If the pilot doesn't have a good scan technique he
> just rolls with it.
>
> I've flown that area and had the weather get really hazy just before
> dark. Still VMC, but enough to start relying on the gauges.
> I've also gotten caught down there when the visability went for good
> to nil in a very short time. It wasn't real problem, but if you aren't
> prepared it can scare you and getting disoriented is a strong likely
> hood.

Losing a navigation instrument isn't a very good excuse to lose attitude
control even in IMC.


Matt

[H.P.]

Good judgment is something else Munson didn't have. Showing off flaps-up
touch-and-goes in a Citation at night wasn't the smartest thing.



"jsmith" > wrote in message
...
> Which we know as "Thurmond Munson Syndrom"
>
> kontiki wrote:
>> Having lots of money can buy you almost anything... except experience.
>

[Markus Voget]

"Dan Luke" > wrote:
>
> "George Patterson" wrote:
>> Bet that was the dealer who sold him the plane.
>
> Must be a hell of a feeling for those folks, going from being thrilled
> with the sale to this.

Extra Aircraft of Germany had an even worse experience some years ago when
their initial customer for the Extra 400 aircraft stalled and crashed on
the first flight away from the factory. The cause was later determined as
"flight in IMC in an unfamiliar aircraft placed excessive demands on the
pilot" (my translation) - over-confidence at its best/worst. The autopilot
functioned differently from the pilot's previous aircraft, and this might
have led him into the stall.

For those who can read German, the investigation report is here:
http://www.bfu-web.de/berichte/98_3x329dub.pdf


Greetings,
Markus

[G. Sylvester]

Markus Voget wrote:
> Extra Aircraft of Germany had an even worse experience some years ago when
> their initial customer for the Extra 400 aircraft stalled and crashed on
> the first flight away from the factory. The cause was later determined as
> "flight in IMC in an unfamiliar aircraft placed excessive demands on the
> pilot" (my translation) - over-confidence at its best/worst. The autopilot
> functioned differently from the pilot's previous aircraft, and this might
> have led him into the stall.
>
> For those who can read German, the investigation report is here:
> http://www.bfu-web.de/berichte/98_3x329dub.pdf

That can also be translated as 'plane' stupid. Brand new airplane
and the guy is taking off into IMC. Even if you are familiar
with the plane, a brand new airplane I'd guess is just like a house or
car or anything else, there will be squawks. Try everything
out in VMC where you can test things without having to worry
about IMC.

Gerald

[Peter Clark]

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:01:16 GMT, "G. Sylvester"
> wrote:

>That can also be translated as 'plane' stupid. Brand new airplane
>and the guy is taking off into IMC. Even if you are familiar
>with the plane, a brand new airplane I'd guess is just like a house or
>car or anything else, there will be squawks. Try everything
>out in VMC where you can test things without having to worry
>about IMC.

In fairness, I would have hoped they did a VMC delivery flight and
systems checkout before signing the paperwork accepting the aircraft..

[kontiki]

Dan Luke wrote:
> This is a flying newsgroup where issues pertinent to the world of (mostly)
> private airplanes are discussed. The loss of a $600k single-engine, piston
> airplane is a significant event in this small world. It raises issues that
> are on topic in this forum, that's why I posted the link and put it in the
> context I did.

Exactly. The issues that this incident brings to light beyond the tragic deaths,
(which happen every single day X100 on the highways of this country) are what
your post was about. I (and 95% of the other readers) realize this are were
not "offended' by your post.