View Full Version : inverted Schweizer towhook
Does anyone use, or have a field approval for, the inverted Schweizer towhook Pawnee installation described in Soaring May 1996 pages 7-8? Here is a direct link to that article https://www.dropbox.com/s/bsp9r0oj2nyz8nx/%20Inverted%20Schweizer%20towhooks.doc?dl=0
Charles Longley
July 22nd 20, 09:55 PM
No field approval needed. Just a moderately competent A&P/IA. AC43.13-2B chapter 8 addresses tow hitch installation-
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2043.13-2B.pdf
On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 1:55:54 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> No field approval needed. Just a moderately competent A&P/IA. AC43.13-2B chapter 8 addresses tow hitch installation-
> https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2043.13-2B..pdf
Charles, thanks for your reply. But I'm informed that the original article quoted in the first post is correct in stating that a 337 and possibly a field approval would be needed. I'm told that Part 43 has approved data for installing tow hooks on aircraft and this modification does not conform to that data.
Charles Longley
July 28th 20, 02:53 PM
Sorry I wasn’t clear. A FAA form 337 is required. A field approval is not required.
I live near Seattle if anyone needs a hook installed.
Charles Longley
July 29th 20, 02:22 AM
By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.
Charles Longley
July 29th 20, 03:21 AM
What’s a life worth?
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> > By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
>
> Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.
The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.
What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?
Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:28:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> > > By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
> >
> > Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.
>
> The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.
>
> What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider.. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?
>
> Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow PIlot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
The last fatal accident proved conclusively that even if you have the ideal release system (in that case a guillotine that severed the rope) you cannot guarantee that the tow pilot will be saved. You need a KGARS.
Tom
Scott Williams[_2_]
July 29th 20, 01:45 PM
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 11:55:38 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:28:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> > > > By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
> > >
> > > Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.
> >
> > The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.
> >
> > What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?
> >
> > Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow PIlot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
>
> The last fatal accident proved conclusively that even if you have the ideal release system (in that case a guillotine that severed the rope) you cannot guarantee that the tow pilot will be saved. You need a KGARS.
>
> Tom
Sadly, No TSO approved, available, reliable, effective and affordable KGARS
Exist.
Scott
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 12:55:38 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:28:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> > > > By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
> > >
> > > Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.
> >
> > The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.
> >
> > What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?
> >
> > Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow PIlot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
>
> The last fatal accident proved conclusively that even if you have the ideal release system (in that case a guillotine that severed the rope) you cannot guarantee that the tow pilot will be saved. You need a KGARS.
>
> Tom
Very true. Flying tow is dangerous but the fact remains, if instructors can't be trusted to fly the airplane, to not properly secure the canopy before take off, to not reach for the canopy when it opens low on tow, to not take their eyes off the tow plane even for a moment, to not release IMMEDIATELY on losing sight of the tow plane, how can young students be expected to perform flawlessly? Often our instinctive reactions are the wrong reactions. I am appalled that today there are still tow planes with Schweizer hooks conventionally installed. Nothing in aviation is 100 percent safe, never has been, never will be but to ignore the most evident of dangerous conditions is folly.
Walt Connelly
Scott Williams[_2_]
July 29th 20, 02:14 PM
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 7:48:47 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 12:55:38 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:28:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> > > > > By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
> > > >
> > > > Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.
> > >
> > > The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.
> > >
> > > What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?
> > >
> > > Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > > Former Tow PIlot
> > > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> >
> > The last fatal accident proved conclusively that even if you have the ideal release system (in that case a guillotine that severed the rope) you cannot guarantee that the tow pilot will be saved. You need a KGARS.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Very true. Flying tow is dangerous but the fact remains, if instructors can't be trusted to fly the airplane, to not properly secure the canopy before take off, to not reach for the canopy when it opens low on tow, to not take their eyes off the tow plane even for a moment, to not release IMMEDIATELY on losing sight of the tow plane, how can young students be expected to perform flawlessly? Often our instinctive reactions are the wrong reactions. I am appalled that today there are still tow planes with Schweizer hooks conventionally installed. Nothing in aviation is 100 percent safe, never has been, never will be but to ignore the most evident of dangerous conditions is folly.
>
> Walt Connelly
Well said Walt.
Scott
John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net
July 29th 20, 02:54 PM
For those that don't know what a KGARS is (I didn't - must have missed that thread) it is a "Kiting Glider Automatic Release System".
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/KGARS$20%E2%80%93$20Kiting$20Glider$20Automatic$20 Release$20system%7Csort:date/rec.aviation.soaring/B3vT0I-qfMw/DLyWDrPCBgAJ
"Charles Longley
Sorry I wasn’t clear. A FAA form 337 is required. A field approval is not required.
I live near Seattle if anyone needs a hook installed."
So I'm curious. If your documenting your work on a 337 without a field approval, you are considering the alteration a major.
So what approved data are you using to make this alteration?
"Charles Longley
Sorry I wasn’t clear. A FAA form 337 is required. A field approval is not required.
I live near Seattle if anyone needs a hook installed."
So I'm curious. If your documenting your work on a 337 without a field approval, you are considering the alteration a major.
So what approved data are you using to make this release inversion alteration?
Dan Marotta
July 29th 20, 04:01 PM
INSTRUCTORS...* There are, indeed, a lot of terrific instructors, but
simply having the rating does not convey super piloting skills to the
holder.* There are several instructors with whom I would not let my wife
fly nor would I let them fly my aircraft.
I've flown many different types of tow planes with many types of release
handles and the hopper dump handle is the best thing I've used, and I've
dumped more than one glider when necessary.* That said, I agree about
the Tost release being superior, but I would add that the guillotine
with a push button on the stick to cut the rope as a backup to the
hopper dump lever would be the safest of all possibilities.
On 7/28/2020 10:27 PM, wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
>>> By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
>> Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.
> The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.
>
> What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?
>
> Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow PIlot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
--
Dan, 5J
Dan Marotta
July 29th 20, 04:06 PM
When I suffered an engine failure at around 200' while still over the
runway and while towing my wife (she was pre-solo), she was pulling her
release while I was pulling my release.* She returned safely to the
runway and after rolling to a stop, her instructor asked, "Did you do
that?"* She replied in the affirmative.
On 7/29/2020 6:48 AM, wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 12:55:38 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:28:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
>>>>> By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
>>>> Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.
>>> The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.
>>>
>>> What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?
>>>
>>> Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.
>>>
>>> Walt Connelly
>>> Former Tow PIlot
>>> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
>> The last fatal accident proved conclusively that even if you have the ideal release system (in that case a guillotine that severed the rope) you cannot guarantee that the tow pilot will be saved. You need a KGARS.
>>
>> Tom
> Very true. Flying tow is dangerous but the fact remains, if instructors can't be trusted to fly the airplane, to not properly secure the canopy before take off, to not reach for the canopy when it opens low on tow, to not take their eyes off the tow plane even for a moment, to not release IMMEDIATELY on losing sight of the tow plane, how can young students be expected to perform flawlessly? Often our instinctive reactions are the wrong reactions. I am appalled that today there are still tow planes with Schweizer hooks conventionally installed. Nothing in aviation is 100 percent safe, never has been, never will be but to ignore the most evident of dangerous conditions is folly.
>
> Walt Connelly
--
Dan, 5J
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:53:07 AM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> Sorry I wasn’t clear. A FAA form 337 is required. A field approval is not required.
> I live near Seattle if anyone needs a hook installed.
Charles, thanks for explaining this. Its a puzzle to me that the FAA does not encourage, or even mandate, inverting all Schweizer towhooks. The FAA show an inverted Schweizer towhook in their FAA Glider Pilot Manual (albeit they show a non-approved ring) and the FAA also note the danger of the non-inverted Schweizer installation in their AC-43.13-2B. The danger of the non-inverted installation is also commonly agreed among all tow pilots I have spoken to. Yet the FAA don't encourage changing all such hooks, but rather encourage leaving them non-inverted by leaving paperwork obstacles in place.
Charles Longley
July 30th 20, 04:05 AM
First off are you an A&P/IA? Secondly do you understand what the FAA has written in the various Advisory Circulars pertaining to tow hitches?
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 8:05:44 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> First off are you an A&P/IA? Secondly do you understand what the FAA has written in the various Advisory Circulars pertaining to tow hitches?
no, yes.
Charles Longley
July 30th 20, 01:49 PM
Sorry I was asking the other guy. Where in AC 43.13-2B does it say you shall use the field approval process to invert a Schweizer hook?
"First off are you an A&P/IA? Secondly do you understand what the FAA has written in the various Advisory Circulars pertaining to tow hitches?"
Yes and yes, but perhaps there is something I'm missing and I'm trying to understand it. Just because you and I are IA's doesnt mean either one of us know it all.
If you filed a 337, you must be considering this a major alteration and you said you filed it without a field approval. So I'm curious, what approval did you use to invert the hitch?
I wasnt saying it had to be "field approved", but if we are considering it a major alteration and filing a 337, then it does have to be approved by something.
So I was simply asking what approval did you use to invert the hitch, 43.13 doesnt do it.
Perhaps there is something I'm missing and I'm trying to understand it.
Do you have a document that is approval to install the hitch inverted?
"First off are you an A&P/IA? Secondly do you understand what the FAA has written in the various Advisory Circulars pertaining to tow hitches?"
Yes and yes, but perhaps there is something I'm missing and I'm trying to understand it. Just because you and I are IA's doesnt mean either one of us know it all.
You must be considering this a major alteration because you said a 337 is required. You then said a field approval is not required, but some kind of approval is required and should be documented on the 337.
So I'm curious, what approval would you use to invert the hitch?
I wasnt saying it had to be "field approved", but if we are considering it a major alteration and filing a 337, then it does have to be approved by something.
So I was simply asking what approval did you use to invert the hitch, 43.13 doesnt do it.
Do you have a document that is approval to install the hitch inverted?
Charles Longley
July 30th 20, 06:59 PM
Tell you what why don’t we agree to disagree. Putting a Schweizer tow hitch on inverted or otherwise is a stupid idea anyway.
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 7:01:32 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> "First off are you an A&P/IA? Secondly do you understand what the FAA has written in the various Advisory Circulars pertaining to tow hitches?"
>
> Yes and yes, but perhaps there is something I'm missing and I'm trying to understand it. Just because you and I are IA's doesnt mean either one of us know it all.
>
>
>
> You must be considering this a major alteration because you said a 337 is required. You then said a field approval is not required, but some kind of approval is required and should be documented on the 337.
> So I'm curious, what approval would you use to invert the hitch?
> I wasnt saying it had to be "field approved", but if we are considering it a major alteration and filing a 337, then it does have to be approved by something.
> So I was simply asking what approval did you use to invert the hitch, 43.13 doesnt do it.
>
> Do you have a document that is approval to install the hitch inverted?
JJD, I see that AC 43-13-2B Fig 8-4 and FAA-H-8083-13A (Glider Flying Handbook) fig 12-4 both show photographs of Schweizer hitches installed inverted. Would this constitute approval?
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 11:59:28 AM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
> Tell you what why don’t we agree to disagree. Putting a Schweizer tow hitch on inverted or otherwise is a stupid idea anyway.
Once again, I remind you guys that some tow planes are only permitted to use a Schweizer release, and changing to a TOST, while desirable, may entail substantial paperwork and approvals by the FAA.
If anybody has a list of tow planes that are approved for TOST releases, that would be helpful to folks who MAY have a Schweizer hook and want to change over.
On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 12:01:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 7:01:32 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > "First off are you an A&P/IA? Secondly do you understand what the FAA has written in the various Advisory Circulars pertaining to tow hitches?"
> >
> > Yes and yes, but perhaps there is something I'm missing and I'm trying to understand it. Just because you and I are IA's doesnt mean either one of us know it all.
> >
> >
> >
> > You must be considering this a major alteration because you said a 337 is required. You then said a field approval is not required, but some kind of approval is required and should be documented on the 337.
> > So I'm curious, what approval would you use to invert the hitch?
> > I wasnt saying it had to be "field approved", but if we are considering it a major alteration and filing a 337, then it does have to be approved by something.
> > So I was simply asking what approval did you use to invert the hitch, 43.13 doesnt do it.
> >
> > Do you have a document that is approval to install the hitch inverted?
>
>
>
> JJD, I see that AC 43-13-2B Fig 8-4 and FAA-H-8083-13A (Glider Flying Handbook) fig 12-4 both show photographs of Schweizer hitches installed inverted. Would this constitute approval?
To make it clear, I'm asking about a Pawnee that already has a Schweizer hook installed.....what paperwork will it take to invert it?
Charles Longley
July 30th 20, 11:01 PM
Sigh... OK here’s another AC to peruse https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-210A.pdf
Here’s some fun facts. Is any part of AC 43.13 considered approved data by the FAA? Well no it’s considered acceptable data. How does it become approved data you ask? Your local very friendly A&P/IA will determine it applies to the repair/alteration being considered and put the chapter, page and paragraph in block 8 of FAA form 337. Note this is not a field approval.
Happy to help! ;)
"JJD, I see that AC 43-13-2B Fig 8-4 and FAA-H-8083-13A (Glider Flying Handbook) fig 12-4 both show photographs of Schweizer hitches installed inverted. Would this constitute approval?"
Fig 8-4 does show it upside down.... on a tricycle gear aircraft.
For all taildragers it indicates the hitch to be upright.
So I would not consider a installation to be compliant with 43.13 if installed inverted on a Pawnee.
In my opinion, 43.13 would not be acceptable or approved data for the inverted install of a hith on a Pawnee.
The glider flying handbook would not be good data for making any modifications to a Pawnee.
I agree 100 % that 43.13 can be approved data for a major repair or alteration. But.. it must fit the situation in question.
So if you've converted your Pawnee to a trike, all is well.
If not, you are noncompliant with 43.13.
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 5:45:07 AM UTC-7, Scott Williams wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 11:55:38 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:28:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> > > > > By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
> > > >
> > > > Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.
> > >
> > > The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.
> > >
> > > What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?
> > >
> > > Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > > Former Tow PIlot
> > > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> >
> > The last fatal accident proved conclusively that even if you have the ideal release system (in that case a guillotine that severed the rope) you cannot guarantee that the tow pilot will be saved. You need a KGARS.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Sadly, No TSO approved, available, reliable, effective and affordable KGARS
> Exist.
> Scott
Today, yes. Tomorrow, we'll see.
Tom
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 8:07:01 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> When I suffered an engine failure at around 200' while still over the
> runway and while towing my wife (she was pre-solo), she was pulling her
> release while I was pulling my release.* She returned safely to the
> runway and after rolling to a stop, her instructor asked, "Did you do
> that?"* She replied in the affirmative.
>
> On 7/29/2020 6:48 AM, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 12:55:38 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:28:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> >>>>> By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
> >>>> Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.
> >>> The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.
> >>>
> >>> What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?
> >>>
> >>> Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.
> >>>
> >>> Walt Connelly
> >>> Former Tow PIlot
> >>> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> >> The last fatal accident proved conclusively that even if you have the ideal release system (in that case a guillotine that severed the rope) you cannot guarantee that the tow pilot will be saved. You need a KGARS.
> >>
> >> Tom
> > Very true. Flying tow is dangerous but the fact remains, if instructors can't be trusted to fly the airplane, to not properly secure the canopy before take off, to not reach for the canopy when it opens low on tow, to not take their eyes off the tow plane even for a moment, to not release IMMEDIATELY on losing sight of the tow plane, how can young students be expected to perform flawlessly? Often our instinctive reactions are the wrong reactions. I am appalled that today there are still tow planes with Schweizer hooks conventionally installed. Nothing in aviation is 100 percent safe, never has been, never will be but to ignore the most evident of dangerous conditions is folly.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
>
> --
> Dan, 5J
I'm glad that she didn't release YOU!
Tom
Tow....@gmail,
I see that I did not address this portion of your question, my apologies....
"To make it clear, I'm asking about a Pawnee that already has a Schweizer hook installed.....what paperwork will it take to invert it?"
If this were me wanting to invert the hitch I would persue a field approval to do so.
I would use the 43.13 data that guides the installation for the hitch and present to the FAA that an inverted hitch is obviously considered to operate correctly on an aircraft because 43.13 clearly accepts its inverted use for tricycle gear aircraft.
Show them how your inverted installation will be completed and how it meets all the other clearance and strength requirements contained in 43.13. State the improved safety reasons as why you want to make this change.
Charles attached the ac 43-210a guidance on persuing a field approval in a previous post above, it is good.
If you do this for your aircraft the paperwork is clean and all controversy for this installation is removed.
If you do invert it by simply stating 43.13 as the reference, you will always be opened to opposing views.
If its inverted, a towing accident happens and my name is documented as having put it inverted on a Pawnee....I personally want as little controversially documentation as possible.
Charles Longley
August 1st 20, 04:28 PM
If I was asked to invert a Schweizer hook I would try and talk whoever wanted it into a Tost hook. If I couldn’t I believe I could use AC 43.13-2B, Chapter 8, paragraph 804 (a), the manufacturers data and other parts of Chapter 8 as appropriate. Field Approvals are kind of hit or miss in my area. In block 8 of the 337 I would start out, “For safety .....”.
On Saturday, August 1, 2020 at 8:28:30 AM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> If I was asked to invert a Schweizer hook I would try and talk whoever wanted it into a Tost hook. If I couldn’t I believe I could use AC 43..13-2B, Chapter 8, paragraph 804 (a), the manufacturers data and other parts of Chapter 8 as appropriate. Field Approvals are kind of hit or miss in my area. In block 8 of the 337 I would start out, “For safety .....”.
Thank you, to all who offered their advice on this. It is appreciated.
Larry Ruggiero
August 7th 20, 10:43 AM
Definitions provided in 14 CFR Part 1.1 state, “Major alteration means an alteration not listed in the aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller specifications—
(1) That might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or
(2) That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.”
Note that Advisory Circular 43.13-1b/2b, which is by definition acceptable data, covers basic tow hook installation. Flipping the hook-- arguably a removable, already installed appliance that effectively changes nothing on the airframe itself-- isn't a major mod. Since Schweizer isn't around anymore to adjudicate, just do it if you're convinced it's safer. Or better yet, buy the Tost.
Larry Ruggiero A&P/IA, tow pilot
NEW YEARS RESOLUTION 2010 MOCIUNPICTURES
August 23rd 20, 11:16 PM
My gliding club still has not got FAA approval to invert the current Schweitzer towhooks on their two Pawnees. The reasons are too complex to describe, but I feel it would help if we had photos of FAA approved inverted Schweitzer towhooks installed on Pawnees, showing exactly how it was done. Can anyone send me such photos? The more the better. Thanks in advance. Send any photos to raxyloid then gmail then com.
On Sunday, August 23, 2020 at 3:16:29 PM UTC-7, NEW YEARS RESOLUTION 2010 MOCIUNPICTURES wrote:
> My gliding club still has not got FAA approval to invert the current Schweitzer towhooks on their two Pawnees. The reasons are too complex to describe, but I feel it would help if we had photos of FAA approved inverted Schweitzer towhooks installed on Pawnees, showing exactly how it was done. Can anyone send me such photos? The more the better. Thanks in advance. Send any photos to raxyloid then gmail then com.
You’re probably going to spend more money trying to get the Schweitzer hook inverted than just buying the Tost hooks.
On Sunday, August 23, 2020 at 3:16:29 PM UTC-7, NEW YEARS RESOLUTION 2010 MOCIUNPICTURES wrote:
> My gliding club still has not got FAA approval to invert the current Schweitzer towhooks on their two Pawnees. The reasons are too complex to describe, but I feel it would help if we had photos of FAA approved inverted Schweitzer towhooks installed on Pawnees, showing exactly how it was done. Can anyone send me such photos? The more the better. Thanks in advance. Send any photos to raxyloid then gmail then com.
I'm still trying to find a copy of the 337 for inverting a Schweizer towhook on a Pawnee. It seems I need a N number for the FAA to track down a copy of the 337. The 1996 article attached says a 337 was granted by the FAA, and I suspect this was for the Pawnees operating at Turf. Does anyone know the N numbers of the Pawnees operating in the 90s at Turf?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bsp9r0oj2nyz8nx/%20Inverted%20Schweizer%20towhooks.doc?dl=0
Waveguru
October 4th 20, 12:16 AM
Rick Brown at the Pleasant Valley Airport in Peoria, Arizona knows. I don't know if he will help you tho.....
Boggs
On Saturday, October 3, 2020 at 4:16:29 PM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> Rick Brown at the Pleasant Valley Airport in Peoria, Arizona knows. I don't know if he will help you tho.....
>
> Boggs
thanks Boggs. Anyone who wishes to, can reply to me privately at axyloid at icloud dot com
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