§ 61.87 (i)

[[email protected]]

Question for CFI-Gs

Was more or less told that I'm laboring under a gross misapprehension of fact by a newly minted glider instructor with regard to the above FAR.

I am new to sailplanes. Been flying since 1976 so I've probably been flying longer than this guy is old. Haven't asked, don't really give a ****.

But.....trying to keep an open mind. When I read the basis of the rule making and of course the Soaring Safety Foundation stuff it was pretty clear why they included:

"procedures for assembly/disassembly of the glider"

Or so I thought until the CFI-G set me straight. Apparently, fatal accidents, or the training that might prevent them, is something I've totally taken out of context. It's not an issue at all.

So.....things that I did notice -

Students who soloed without ever getting training on assembly/disassembly of a sailplane. Is it a huge deal if you're doing nothing but flying club ships? Maybe not. But that isn't what the FAR says. It's also not what several well written books on the subject (Some of which are actually sold by said club) say either.

Funny, in a way, but I have to use this quote -

"They should at least read the regs to be aware of what FAR they're violating."

Indeed.

What do CFI-Gs do? Everybody skip that part? Somebody skip it? Should it skipped at all and if so, why? Since half post anonymously this is a great opportunity for learning and candor.

[SoaringXCellence]

Shaun,

You're right! It's often overlooked for various reasons. Most commonly (that I have seen) is that the CFI-G hasn't reviewed the Student pilot solo requirements in a while. I recall that a few years ago there were 15 requirements: now it looks like there are 19. The long-time CFI-G tend to miss things like that which have changed in the last few years. The FARs aren't quite as static as we think.

When I was a Designated Examiner, it was not unusual to find those kinds of omissions in logbooks.

Mike

[Tim Taylor]

Not a CFIG, but our expectation is that glider assembly and rigging is taught from day one of instruction. It starts with preflight inspection in the early flights discussing what to look for in terms of correct rigging and safety clips, latches, etc. It then progresses to how the glider is assembled or disassembled to ensure that it is done correctly. Pre-solo is usually inspections and theoretical. Pre check-ride the student should have at least one experience derigging and rigging the training glider to be used for the check-ride.

[[email protected][_2_]]

You are spot on that this is very important and your apprehension is not only founded, but could save your life. Although I have retired from instructing in gliders years ago, I always instructed my students the importance of a thorough preflight as if the glider/club ship landed out the day before and was reassembled after getting back to home field. Mistakes happen, controls improperly connected, safely pins missing.
Gliders are designed to come apart and then reassembled. Club ships, trainers ... doesn’t happen often. People get rusty on taking things apart , putting them back together. Parts get misplaced, lost, damage. This is why the FAA includes this training on the advice of the SSA forefathers, leaders, instructors. And well founded.
So, what do you do? Ask your instructor to explain the assembly and disassembly procedures of the ships you fly. Or request to see the ops manual, maintenance manual. Once you know what to look for, it only adds a minute or two to the preflight.
It has been over thirty years, but I do remember walking my students thru the process and what to check for. On everything I checked them out in.
Trust but verify.
Get it done, be safe.
R

[John Foster]

On Friday, August 7, 2020 at 10:21:18 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> You are spot on that this is very important and your apprehension is not only founded, but could save your life. Although I have retired from instructing in gliders years ago, I always instructed my students the importance of a thorough preflight as if the glider/club ship landed out the day before and was reassembled after getting back to home field. Mistakes happen, controls improperly connected, safely pins missing.
> Gliders are designed to come apart and then reassembled. Club ships, trainers ... doesn’t happen often. People get rusty on taking things apart , putting them back together. Parts get misplaced, lost, damage. This is why the FAA includes this training on the advice of the SSA forefathers, leaders, instructors. And well founded.
> So, what do you do? Ask your instructor to explain the assembly and disassembly procedures of the ships you fly. Or request to see the ops manual, maintenance manual. Once you know what to look for, it only adds a minute or two to the preflight.
> It has been over thirty years, but I do remember walking my students thru the process and what to check for. On everything I checked them out in.
> Trust but verify.
> Get it done, be safe.
> R

Serious question: how many people have had training on how to take apart or put together a 2-33? In most cases, once it is assembled, it stays assembled for YEARS, either tied out in the off season or stored in a hanger--assembled in both cases. Many glider clubs, especially those struggling with finances, don't have fancy glass training ships, but get by with the venerable work-horse--the 2-33.

Now that doesn't excuse not being educated on how a sailplane is put together, but it does make it a lot harder when there is no real-world experience that students can participate in. Fortunately, in my training, I was able to assist another club member in the assembly of his private glider.

[[email protected]]

> Fortunately, in my training, I was able to assist another club member in the assembly of his private glider.

Careful, 61.87i-13 says the glider, not a glider. Just saying.

Thinking back, by the time I soled, we had done an annual on the glider in question, which sorted out assembly.

Given a choice between a 'performed 61.87i' solo signoff checking everything on the checklist and thinking if the overall situation is a good idea, choosing both sounds good.

[Piet Barber]

> What do CFI-Gs do? Everybody skip that part? Somebody skip it? Should it skipped at all and if so, why? Since half post anonymously this is a great opportunity for learning and candor.

Hello.

What do we do as a club? Skyline Soaring Club has a training syllabus, that all of our instructors are required to follow. It has a list of all the 61.87 requirements that must be documented. If it's in 61.87, it's in our syllabus.

http://skylinesoaring.org/TRAINING/Syllabus/

We have it computerized. Every time the flight instructor and student fly together, the flight log database detects that there was an instructional flight. The instructor is emailed a request to fill out a flight lesson record. The instructor selects which lesson plan entries were done, scored on a 1-4 rating. The instructor writes an essay describing what was done. At 11 pm, the instruction report gets mailed to the student and all of the other instructors.

Each of the items in the syllabus have a lesson plan, describing what is expected of the student, what is expected of the instructor, external references.

All of the items in 61.87 are tracked in the form of a progress bar. When the progress bar gets all the way to the right, the student has met all of the 61.87 requirements, and will be ready to solo once an instructor thinks the student can "put it all together" . The whole student record is stored in a database, and can be viewed by the student, or any instructor. If student Jeff has been flying with Bob, instructor Mike can get caught up on all of Jeff's progress by looking at the instruction report. We have 15 years of instruction reports and flight logs to see how long it takes for us to get a student through the program.

Skyline Soaring Club's syllabus is used by several other clubs around the country. The contents of the lesson plans are free for your club to adapt to its needs.

The syllabus was envisioned as a way for us to make sure that all the checkboxes got ticked off before a student was able to go flying solo. We trade students between instructors as a normal part of business. If you are the instructor taking over from another guy, do you make your student do everything in 61.87 all over again? It could take weeks or months to get everything accomplished. What do you do to make sure that everything in 61.87 was covered? Can you really decipher that logbook entry?

Consider this scenario: I had a student break up a glider in an accident. Once the FAA comes to investigate, there's no documentation that I ever did training with the student in an area that was a contributing factor to the crash. Sure, I did that lesson with the student several times -- BUT IT WAS NEVER WRITTEN DOWN. I don't ever want to be put into that position.

If yours is a club that has 2 instructors, and a student spends 100% of his time with only one instructor, the online syllabus is still useful. It's useful because that student is eventually going to fly with another instructor, and having a detailed training record online is SO much better than awful chicken scratch in a logbook that has not nearly enough space to document everything.

To answer your question, "We don't skip that part. It's a part of the training syllabus. Every club should have a training syllabus. If yours is a club that thinks that a syllabus is for sissies, reconsider your choice of clubs. Try to find one that doesn't have these macho, invulnerability or anti-authority hazardous attitudes. "

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

Just a note that for clubs that do not fly in the winter (mine typically doesn't from late November to March-ish) they disassemble/reassemble the fleet twice a year.

This allows a great opportunity for the pre-solo pilots to lend a hand and fulfill this reg. Not to mention a great opportunity for a group get together plus photo-op!

[Piet Barber]

On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 11:11:40 AM UTC-4, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> Just a note that for clubs that do not fly in the winter (mine typically doesn't from late November to March-ish) they disassemble/reassemble the fleet twice a year.
>
> This allows a great opportunity for the pre-solo pilots to lend a hand and fulfill this reg. Not to mention a great opportunity for a group get together plus photo-op!

We once had a hangar door that was jammed shut for longer than it should have been. It took weeks to get replacement parts to make it work again!

We couldn't bring ourselves to leave our ASK-21 out exposed to the elements while this hangar maintenance problem was being sorted out. We got a lot of experience putting the ASK-21 together in the morning, and putting it away at night. It can be done with three people, but usually 5 were holding onto one wing at a time.

[Hightime]

Never derigg unless it’s absolutely necessary. If it’s in the training syllabus wait until derigging must take place to check that box , never before . Derigging /rigging is the opposite of fun so no wonder nobody want to do it

[Tony[_5_]]

At least ground training on the subject. I always try to recruit my students to help me rig/de-rig on days where I fly XC. Voila training complete! They are definitely going to get some basic questions about assembly/disassembly on the checkride.

[Rakel]

On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 11:13:30 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> At least ground training on the subject. I always try to recruit my students to help me rig/de-rig on days where I fly XC. Voila training complete! They are definitely going to get some basic questions about assembly/disassembly on the checkride.

I do the same thing. I keep my LS 1-f in the trailer and when I assemble there is usually a student available to help with the wings and the positive control check.

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

It's about The FAA EXEMPTION. The FAA grants glider pilots an EXEMPTION from the requirement of having an A&P make a logbook entry each time we assemble any glider because all glider pilots have received training in assembly.. If a pilot has not logged the training from a CFIG then you technically cannot put the wings onto a glider. The SSA staff worked with the FAA to obtain this exemption many years ago. Find it on the SSA website.
As a Designated Pilot Examiner, I look for this training along with ALL of the 19 pre-solo FAR 61.87 mandatory training items along with the type of launch endorsement, typically aerotow. Further, I've learned that some CFIG's have failed to provide a Pre-Solo Written Test for each model of glider a student will solo and make an entry into the student pilot's logbook. One pre-solo test is not enough if the student starts in a Schweizer 2-33 and later solos a 1-26. Same for PW-6 into PW-5, two seat or into any single seat glider. Each requires a pre-solo written test generated by the CFIG for each glider. Note that all pilot examiners are required by the FAA to look very closely at the applicant's logbook (as well as the glider logbook.) To avoid the embarrassment of rejection just before the checkride begins, I ask the applicants scan their pilot logbook for these mandatory endorsements from their CFIG in advance and e-mail these to me. If an endorsement is missing, we cannot begin the checkride. Blame it on the CFIG?

[SoaringXCellence]

Except if you look at the reg, the pre-solo test is not required to be written, but I think that is a great way to "prove" you'd done the test. An Oral test meets the requirement, but you may have a hard time remembering what you asked if an FAA inspector was investigating an incident.

MB

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 11:30:29 PM UTC-5, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> Except if you look at the reg, the pre-solo test is not required to be written, but I think that is a great way to "prove" you'd done the test. An Oral test meets the requirement, but you may have a hard time remembering what you asked if an FAA inspector was investigating an incident.
>
> MB

Thank you all for a robust exchange.

What prompted the question in the first place was I was told flatly "there are no FAR violations" followed by "you are wrong".

It's abundantly clear why the requirement exists. Burt, your point is well taken with regard to the exemption. I think I could make a solid case against gratuitous disassembly for the sake of a class (Grob 102 ADs on wing spigots come to mind here) but I am convinced that the need for the training is there pre-solo. I say that having helped on a landout only weeks ago. It was time consuming and tedious, but everything was put back together before it went back into the hangar. I don't think any of us lost any sleep that night over how it was done.

But the requirement for the training is there.

It's kind of amusing that only a week ago I had a CFI-G tell me I didn't know WTF I was talking about.

[2G]

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 5:41:22 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 11:30:29 PM UTC-5, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> > Except if you look at the reg, the pre-solo test is not required to be written, but I think that is a great way to "prove" you'd done the test. An Oral test meets the requirement, but you may have a hard time remembering what you asked if an FAA inspector was investigating an incident.
> >
> > MB
> Thank you all for a robust exchange.
>
> What prompted the question in the first place was I was told flatly "there are no FAR violations" followed by "you are wrong".
>
> It's abundantly clear why the requirement exists. Burt, your point is well taken with regard to the exemption. I think I could make a solid case against gratuitous disassembly for the sake of a class (Grob 102 ADs on wing spigots come to mind here) but I am convinced that the need for the training is there pre-solo. I say that having helped on a landout only weeks ago. It was time consuming and tedious, but everything was put back together before it went back into the hangar. I don't think any of us lost any sleep that night over how it was done.
>
> But the requirement for the training is there.
>
> It's kind of amusing that only a week ago I had a CFI-G tell me I didn't know WTF I was talking about.

That could be achieved as simply as giving the student the written procedure for glider assembly to review. You don't actually have to rig a glider in the presence of the student.

Tom

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 9:14:56 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 5:41:22 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 11:30:29 PM UTC-5, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> > > Except if you look at the reg, the pre-solo test is not required to be written, but I think that is a great way to "prove" you'd done the test. An Oral test meets the requirement, but you may have a hard time remembering what you asked if an FAA inspector was investigating an incident.
> > >
> > > MB
> > Thank you all for a robust exchange.
> >
> > What prompted the question in the first place was I was told flatly "there are no FAR violations" followed by "you are wrong".
> >
> > It's abundantly clear why the requirement exists. Burt, your point is well taken with regard to the exemption. I think I could make a solid case against gratuitous disassembly for the sake of a class (Grob 102 ADs on wing spigots come to mind here) but I am convinced that the need for the training is there pre-solo. I say that having helped on a landout only weeks ago. It was time consuming and tedious, but everything was put back together before it went back into the hangar. I don't think any of us lost any sleep that night over how it was done.
> >
> > But the requirement for the training is there.
> >
> > It's kind of amusing that only a week ago I had a CFI-G tell me I didn't know WTF I was talking about.
> That could be achieved as simply as giving the student the written procedure for glider assembly to review. You don't actually have to rig a glider in the presence of the student.
>
> Tom

Never a disagreement as to how it might be accomplished.

The disagreement began and ended with the idea that it needed to be accomplished pre-solo at all.


No longer a problem for me. I'm flying at another club and I'll finish my work up there. I guess somebody got butt hurt or something that I dared to ask a question without getting their approval.

For them a traditional raven sign off

Alpha
Mike
Foxtrot

[David Shelton[_2_]]

The regs state that solo students must receive and log "flight training" for "Procedures for disassembly and assembly of the glider." "Flight Training" is defined in 14 CFR 61.1 as training "received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft." Technically, students must be trained to disassemble the glider while in flight! ;)

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 2:13:03 AM UTC-4, David Shelton wrote:
> The regs state that solo students must receive and log "flight training" for "Procedures for disassembly and assembly of the glider." "Flight Training" is defined in 14 CFR 61.1 as training "received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft." Technically, students must be trained to disassemble the glider while in flight! ;)

The requirement to instruct in assembly/disassemble procedures is the most explicit requirement in this reg that the student know how to tell if the aircraft is assembled properly. Teaching of preflight inspection in ubiquitious in pre-solo instruction, but not explicitly addressed in this reg.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 7:24:55 AM UTC-5, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 2:13:03 AM UTC-4, David Shelton wrote:
> > The regs state that solo students must receive and log "flight training" for "Procedures for disassembly and assembly of the glider." "Flight Training" is defined in 14 CFR 61.1 as training "received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft." Technically, students must be trained to disassemble the glider while in flight! ;)
> The requirement to instruct in assembly/disassemble procedures is the most explicit requirement in this reg that the student know how to tell if the aircraft is assembled properly. Teaching of preflight inspection in ubiquitious in pre-solo instruction, but not explicitly addressed in this reg.

So far I've had only one person actually argue that aspect with me.

I have to share this, I actually have somebody who continues to argue back channel that I am full of crap. He lacks the intellectual integrity to come here and argue it for himself so instead he's threatening (indirectly) suit for libel for a job he does for free.

No, I'm not making this up.

[S Aero]

Concerning Burt’s comment on the FAA exemption letter for non A&Ps to assemble gliders... anybody know where to find it on the SSA site?
I’m not having any luck finding it.

[Tony[_7_]]

On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 at 11:05:35 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Concerning Burt’s comment on the FAA exemption letter for non A&Ps to assemble gliders... anybody know where to find it on the SSA site?
> I’m not having any luck finding it.
"This information can be found in Amendment 43-27, published in 52 FR 17276, May 6, 1987 which is an amendment to 14 CFR part 43.."

Even if you can't find it, the FSDO guy will happily take a half-day to look it up!

Jeez this new format is atrocious.

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 at 8:47:42 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 at 11:05:35 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Concerning Burt’s comment on the FAA exemption letter for non A&Ps to assemble gliders... anybody know where to find it on the SSA site?

Glider Assembly Exemption.
An aircraft logbook entry is not required for assembling a glider.

From the FAA Glider Flying Handbook, page 6-2 (8083-13A, the current edition):
“The assembly of a glider to include the installation of glider wings and tail surfaces is classified as operations functions not preventative maintenance.
This information can be found in Amendment 43-27, published in 52 FR 17276, May 6, 1987 which is an amendment to 14 CFR part 43.”
The FAA considers that training in assembling a glider is part of the mandatory glider pre-solo training requirements in CFR 61.87(i)(13). Therefore, it not a part 43 preventative maintenance action which would require a logbook entry, but a normal operational action and no logbook entry is required.

[S Aero]

Thanks Tony and Burt.... very helpful!

[Piet Barber]

> From the FAA Glider Flying Handbook, page 6-2 (8083-13A, the current edition):
> “The assembly of a glider to include the installation of glider wings and tail surfaces is classified as operations functions not preventative maintenance.
> This information can be found in Amendment 43-27, published in 52 FR 17276, May 6, 1987 which is an amendment to 14 CFR part 43.”
> The FAA considers that training in assembling a glider is part of the mandatory glider pre-solo training requirements in CFR 61.87(i)(13). Therefore, it not a part 43 preventative maintenance action which would require a logbook entry, but a normal operational action and no logbook entry is required.

Neat!
Back when I first started flying gliders, an instructor told me that you had to log assembly and disassembly in the logbook. Seeing as that was 1986, it was certainly true then!

Here's the link to the exemption, stored at the Library of Congress:
https://www.loc.gov/item/fr052087/

You'll find the exemption listed in Chapter VII, near the end of the document.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 8:27:02 AM UTC-7, Piet Barber wrote:
> > From the FAA Glider Flying Handbook, page 6-2 (8083-13A, the current edition):
> > “The assembly of a glider to include the installation of glider wings and tail surfaces is classified as operations functions not preventative maintenance.
> > This information can be found in Amendment 43-27, published in 52 FR 17276, May 6, 1987 which is an amendment to 14 CFR part 43.”
> > The FAA considers that training in assembling a glider is part of the mandatory glider pre-solo training requirements in CFR 61.87(i)(13). Therefore, it not a part 43 preventative maintenance action which would require a logbook entry, but a normal operational action and no logbook entry is required.


Another argument is that the glider POH, FAA-approved procedures for the pilot to follow, contains instructions on how to assemble and disassemble the glider.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 at 8:47:42 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 at 11:05:35 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Concerning Burt’s comment on the FAA exemption letter for non A&Ps to assemble gliders... anybody know where to find it on the SSA site?
> > I’m not having any luck finding it.
> "This information can be found in Amendment 43-27, published in 52 FR 17276, May 6, 1987 which is an amendment to 14 CFR part 43."
>
> Even if you can't find it, the FSDO guy will happily take a half-day to look it up!
>
> Jeez this new format is atrocious.

Tony,

The FSDO could have cared less.