Parajumper breaks legs???

[jerry wass]

How did the jumper jump outa that plane, travel upward & forward & break
his legs on the L.E. of the wing outboard the engine nacele ???
'twas on the OK news last nite, but didn't catch where it happened..

[[email protected]]

jerry wass wrote:
> How did the jumper jump outa that plane, travel upward & forward &
break
> his legs on the L.E. of the wing outboard the engine nacele ???
> 'twas on the OK news last nite, but didn't catch where it happened..

Jump from high altitude and the jump bird pilot will bring the bird
down to pattern altitude at a mind blowing desent rate. A jumper fully
tucked up can catch and even outrun the jump plane under the right
conditions. In this case, it appears that the a/c was already down in
the pattern and the jumper blew through the pattern altitude and struck
the a/c from overhead still in freefall.
Non-survivable injuries unless the EMT's just happened to be right
there when he landed.

Craig C.

[Morgans]

> wrote

In this case, it appears that the a/c was already down in
> the pattern and the jumper blew through the pattern altitude and struck
> the a/c from overhead still in freefall.
> Non-survivable injuries unless the EMT's just happened to be right
> there when he landed.

What, broken legs, un-survivable? Were they massively bleeding, from
compound breaks or something?
--
Jim in NC

[Montblack]

("Morgans" wrote)
> What, broken legs, un-survivable? Were they massively bleeding, from
> compound breaks or something?


AvWeb
http://www.avweb.com/newswire/11_17a/onthefly/189644-1.html
Florida skydiver Albert "Gus" Wing III, 50, died after he collided with the
wing of the Twin Otter that he jumped from Saturday morning, severing both
legs at the knees. After the impact at 600 feet, Wing controlled his
parachute to a landing but died from his injuries later at Halifax Medical
Center. The aircraft landed safely...


Montblack

[Morgans]

"Bryan Martin" > wrote

> His legs were severed at the knees on impact.
>
> http://www.local6.com/firstnews/4410256/detail.html

That sucks. Condolences to family and friends.
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

jerry wass wrote:

> How did the jumper jump outa that plane, travel upward & forward & break
> his legs on the L.E. of the wing outboard the engine nacele ???
> 'twas on the OK news last nite, but didn't catch where it happened..

Most jump planes dive for the ground after release, and it is likely the
airplane ran him down.


Matt

[Nick Funk]

I have seen jump planes beat the sky diver down. Many times I have seen
the pilot put a plane (Cessna) into a spin from 10,000 to 12,000 feet
and pull at about 1500 feet, usually near the downwind leg of the
pattern. Many times the plane is on the runway before the sky diver
touches down.



jerry wass wrote:
> How did the jumper jump outa that plane, travel upward & forward & break
> his legs on the L.E. of the wing outboard the engine nacele ???
> 'twas on the OK news last nite, but didn't catch where it happened..

[Dave S]

If we are talking about the Skydive Deland incident, Then there are a
LOT of bits of misinformation that need to be tweaked here in these
first two posts.

The jumper, Gus Wing, was a veteran jumper. He and the Otter pilot are
both reputed to be saftey-freaks.

The jumper was serving as a photographer for a student/tandem jump and
was reportedly getting in position to film the student's landing. He was
under canopy (NOT in freefall) and the accident occured at either 600 or
1000 ft (depending on what version of the story). (Very few people would
DARE freefall at 600 ft AGL, I speculate)

The Otter Checklists I've seen call out a landing speed of 90 kts, and
approach speeds anywhere from 100-140 knots depending on phase of
approach. The story is that his legs were hit by the leading edge of the
otter, severing them partially or totally. The jumper was able to land,
but died at the hospital.

Those bits were gleaned from Usenet, CNN, Local media and Dropzone.com.
I am not a jumper and live over 800 miles away and have no personal
connection to any of this.

The rest is my opinion and speculation.

Now.. from a medical standpoint, A traumatic amputation usually mangles
things in the process.. torn blood vessels dont have as much of a
tendency to "self seal" as do tranversely CUT ones (like cutting a
vessel with a razor).. and the Femoral (and further down, the Popliteal)
arteries are large vessels that can flow a lot of volume. Your heart
can pump your entire blood volume in a minute. If there is a big enough
hole, you really CAN bleed out that fast.

Couple that with torn vessels, mangled legs, the probablility that for
the first minute or two (or maybe longer.. people who jumped from the
same plane reported hearing sirens as they landed.. so help was CLOSE)
the people arriving are NOT trained medical personnel who would KNOW to
apply direct pressure to pressure points (above the injury) to try to
stop the bleeding (rather than trying to stem it with direct pressure at
a mangled injury site).

Couple this again with responding medical personnel only having IV
fluids to try and raise blood pressure.. IV fluids dont carry oxygen..
hemoglobin does.. and right now there are no acceptable blood
substitutes out there (there have been recent trials, but no marketed
product).. all this leaves you with a diminishing chance of survival.

My speculation is that unless Mr. Wing had paradropped into a MASH unit,
he was doomed by his injury, having significantly bled out in the last
minute of his descent. Even if a trained paramedic crew was right there
and on the scene immediately, they would have had a hell of a fight (to
save him) on their hands.

Dave

wrote:

> jerry wass wrote:
>
>>How did the jumper jump outa that plane, travel upward & forward &
>
> break
>
>>his legs on the L.E. of the wing outboard the engine nacele ???
>>'twas on the OK news last nite, but didn't catch where it happened..
>
>
> Jump from high altitude and the jump bird pilot will bring the bird
> down to pattern altitude at a mind blowing desent rate. A jumper fully
> tucked up can catch and even outrun the jump plane under the right
> conditions. In this case, it appears that the a/c was already down in
> the pattern and the jumper blew through the pattern altitude and struck
> the a/c from overhead still in freefall.
> Non-survivable injuries unless the EMT's just happened to be right
> there when he landed.
>
> Craig C.
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

Dave S wrote:

>
> My speculation is that unless Mr. Wing had paradropped into a MASH unit,
> he was doomed by his injury, having significantly bled out in the last
> minute of his descent. Even if a trained paramedic crew was right there
> and on the scene immediately, they would have had a hell of a fight (to
> save him) on their hands.
>
A paramedic crew can't do squat except try to stop things from getting any
worse while rushing him to a surgical (preferably trauma staffed)
facility. Unlike cardiac and other medical cases where the paramedics
have stuff they can do to actually treat in the field, it's still pretty
much swoop and scoop for large-scale trauma.

[LCT Paintball]

> the pilot put a plane (Cessna) into a spin from 10,000 to 12,000 feet and
> pull at about 1500 feet, usually near the downwind leg of the

When you say spin, do you mean a controlled radial decent, or an O-Crap I'm
in a spin?

[[email protected]]

LCT Paintball wrote:
>
> When you say spin, do you mean a controlled radial decent, or an
O-Crap I'm
> in a spin?

Generally speaking, when you do a spin on purpose, you leave out the
"Oh crap" part.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Bertie the Bunyip]

http://www.local6.com/firstnews/4410256/detail.html

[jerry wass]

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
> http://www.local6.com/firstnews/4410256/detail.html

Many thanks for all the replies...Jerry


ps I, too, thought a spin is a spin, is a spin---(except inverted)

[Stuart Fields]

As a past sky diver driver, I used to dump them at 7200 out of a Cessna 182,
and touch down the same time they did. The process I used was to first
close the cowl flaps, close the throttle to 15" of mp.and roll into a steep
bank. I didn't spin but I did have a tight spiral and typically saw the VSI
go to numbers like 8,000fpm.
I agree it does sound like the plane ran into the jumper. We used to have a
BT-13 pilot that loved to split S after the jumpers left the back seat and
then when the guys got their chutes open, he would buzz just over the top of
your canopy. It gave me a good dose of adrenalin the first time he did it
to me.
S. Fields
"Nick Funk" > wrote in message
...
> I have seen jump planes beat the sky diver down. Many times I have seen
> the pilot put a plane (Cessna) into a spin from 10,000 to 12,000 feet
> and pull at about 1500 feet, usually near the downwind leg of the
> pattern. Many times the plane is on the runway before the sky diver
> touches down.
>
>
>
> jerry wass wrote:
> > How did the jumper jump outa that plane, travel upward & forward & break
> > his legs on the L.E. of the wing outboard the engine nacele ???
> > 'twas on the OK news last nite, but didn't catch where it happened..

[Rich Ahrens]

Stuart Fields wrote:
> As a past sky diver driver, I used to dump them at 7200 out of a Cessna 182,
> and touch down the same time they did. The process I used was to first
> close the cowl flaps, close the throttle to 15" of mp.and roll into a steep
> bank. I didn't spin but I did have a tight spiral and typically saw the VSI
> go to numbers like 8,000fpm.

You had a VSI in a 182 that read up to 8000?

[Bertie the Bunyip]

Rich Ahrens > :

> Stuart Fields wrote:
>> As a past sky diver driver, I used to dump them at 7200 out of a
>> Cessna 182, and touch down the same time they did. The process I
>> used was to first close the cowl flaps, close the throttle to 15" of
>> mp.and roll into a steep bank. I didn't spin but I did have a tight
>> spiral and typically saw the VSI go to numbers like 8,000fpm.
>
> You had a VSI in a 182 that read up to 8000?
>

Must be a 182 SP

[Matt Whiting]

Stuart Fields wrote:
> As a past sky diver driver, I used to dump them at 7200 out of a Cessna 182,
> and touch down the same time they did. The process I used was to first
> close the cowl flaps, close the throttle to 15" of mp.and roll into a steep
> bank. I didn't spin but I did have a tight spiral and typically saw the VSI
> go to numbers like 8,000fpm.
> I agree it does sound like the plane ran into the jumper. We used to have a
> BT-13 pilot that loved to split S after the jumpers left the back seat and
> then when the guys got their chutes open, he would buzz just over the top of
> your canopy. It gave me a good dose of adrenalin the first time he did it
> to me.

I think I'd give that pilot a good dose of adrenalin when I stuffed my
..44 mag under his nose after a stunt like that...


Matt

[Dave S]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Dave S wrote:
>
>>
>> My speculation is that unless Mr. Wing had paradropped into a MASH
>> unit, he was doomed by his injury, having significantly bled out in
>> the last minute of his descent. Even if a trained paramedic crew was
>> right there and on the scene immediately, they would have had a hell
>> of a fight (to save him) on their hands.
>>
> A paramedic crew can't do squat except try to stop things from getting any
> worse while rushing him to a surgical (preferably trauma staffed)
> facility. Unlike cardiac and other medical cases where the paramedics
> have stuff they can do to actually treat in the field, it's still pretty
> much swoop and scoop for large-scale trauma.

I agree 100% :) Before I started working as a nurse in trauma centers, I
was an active paramedic (and still maintain my paramedic credentials to
this day). You see and do a lot in 15 years.

Dave

[videoguy]

"Nick Funk" > wrote in message
...
>I have seen jump planes beat the sky diver down.

[snip]

> Many times the plane is on the runway before the sky diver touches down.

OK, lets explain this a little more to this non pilot and non jumper. Seems
to me that logic dictates that if the divers are all trying to land at the
airport, why would the jump plane try to get there around that same time?

How long does it take for the divers to reach ground? 2 minutes? 4 minutes?
Surely not much more than that. Why would the plane not descend at a pace
to place them in the pattern after the jumpers had cleared the area? Does
the 3-5 minutes flying time the plane saves by trying to beat the jumpers
seem significant?

I would appreciate any responders remembering that I am not a pilot, nor a
jumper. Answers with some supporting details would be appreciated.

Thanks,
GWK

[Jerry Springer]

videoguy wrote:
> "Nick Funk" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I have seen jump planes beat the sky diver down.
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
>> Many times the plane is on the runway before the sky diver touches down.
>
>
> OK, lets explain this a little more to this non pilot and non jumper. Seems
> to me that logic dictates that if the divers are all trying to land at the
> airport, why would the jump plane try to get there around that same time?
>
> How long does it take for the divers to reach ground? 2 minutes? 4 minutes?
> Surely not much more than that. Why would the plane not descend at a pace
> to place them in the pattern after the jumpers had cleared the area? Does
> the 3-5 minutes flying time the plane saves by trying to beat the jumpers
> seem significant?
>
> I would appreciate any responders remembering that I am not a pilot, nor a
> jumper. Answers with some supporting details would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> GWK
>
>
Hmmmm.... video guy, looking for some gory details?

[[email protected]]

As an active jumper, jumpmaster, jump instructor, competitor, master
rigger, skydiver driver and drop zone employee at various times over
the last 30 years I can tell you that this was a tragic accident. For
one thing I have never seen a pilot spin a cessna 10,000 ft down and
pull out on downwind. Ever. I doubt it is even survivable in a Cessna.
I HAVE done as Stuart tells, a tight spiral that rolls out on downwind
to final that will beat a jumper to the ground. Every jump pilot
typically does a deadstick landing from the exit point to the ground.
Why? Time is money, ya gotta get the next load up. A jumper will
typically spend 30 sec to 1 minute in freefall and then spend 3 to 5
minutes under canopy, depending on his exit and pull altitudes. I have
also made many jumps at the Deland airport in the past. As I remember
it is about 2 miles to town, and presumably the hospital. Deland has a
big operation there. They have many jumpers going all the time. In
general gliders and jumpers like to approach any airport from upwind,
they drift into the field with the wind that way. That puts jumpers on
"approach" where we think of it as downwind or upwind near pattern
altitude. They turn and face the wind for an upwind landing during the
last few hundred feet of descent. Many times the jump pilots, jumpers
and local gliders are jockying in the same piece of the pattern.
Vigilence is required. This was a case of two people meeting by
accident, not by someone doing something erratic or out of the
ordinary. Uninformed and halfcocked statements and speculation about
jumpers are as big a disservice to them as the uninformed and
halfcocked statements about pilots that get us mad.
Justaguy

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

No as I recall it read to 6,000 but I remember winding the thing up past the
6 more than once.

--
Kathy Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


"Rich Ahrens" > wrote in message
...
> Stuart Fields wrote:
> > As a past sky diver driver, I used to dump them at 7200 out of a Cessna
182,
> > and touch down the same time they did. The process I used was to first
> > close the cowl flaps, close the throttle to 15" of mp.and roll into a
steep
> > bank. I didn't spin but I did have a tight spiral and typically saw the
VSI
> > go to numbers like 8,000fpm.
>
> You had a VSI in a 182 that read up to 8000?

[Stuart & Kathryn Fields]

Matt: I found out later that one of the other jumpers had walked up the
wing along side the fuselage before he jumed, and dropped a bag over the
pilot's head. The pilot thought it was me and proceeded to get even. This
was definitely back in the looser and crazier days.

--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Stuart Fields wrote:
> > As a past sky diver driver, I used to dump them at 7200 out of a Cessna
182,
> > and touch down the same time they did. The process I used was to first
> > close the cowl flaps, close the throttle to 15" of mp.and roll into a
steep
> > bank. I didn't spin but I did have a tight spiral and typically saw the
VSI
> > go to numbers like 8,000fpm.
> > I agree it does sound like the plane ran into the jumper. We used to
have a
> > BT-13 pilot that loved to split S after the jumpers left the back seat
and
> > then when the guys got their chutes open, he would buzz just over the
top of
> > your canopy. It gave me a good dose of adrenalin the first time he did
it
> > to me.
>
> I think I'd give that pilot a good dose of adrenalin when I stuffed my
> .44 mag under his nose after a stunt like that...
>
>
> Matt

[videoguy]

>"Jerry Springer" > wrote in message
...

>>videoguy wrote:
>>
>> OK, lets explain this a little more to this non pilot and non jumper.
>> Seems to me that logic dictates that if the divers are all trying to land
>> at the airport, why would the jump plane try to get there around that
>> same time?
>>
>> How long does it take for the divers to reach ground? 2 minutes? 4
>> minutes? Surely not much more than that. Why would the plane not descend
>> at a pace to place them in the pattern after the jumpers had cleared the
>> area? Does the 3-5 minutes flying time the plane saves by trying to beat
>> the jumpers seem significant?
>>
>> I would appreciate any responders remembering that I am not a pilot, nor
>> a jumper. Answers with some supporting details would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> GWK
> Hmmmm.... video guy, looking for some gory details?

I don't know you, Mr. Springer, and as far as I know, you don't know me
either. But, as this is the second time you have responded to one of my
posts with comments that are neither constructive or useful, but simply
criptic, snide and rude, I will consider you to be someone who has little of
value to add to any discussion.

I fail to see where any of my post indicates even the remotest interest in
gory details. As someone who was unfamiliar with the sport of skydiving, I
asked what I considered to be valid questions.

Mr. Springer, or whatever your name really is, there is no need for you to
respond. I have decided to give your posts the consideration they deserve.

Regards,
GWK

[videoguy]

> wrote in message
ups.com...

[Very informative reply snipped]

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't have any knowledge regarding skydiving
operations. Your desciption made things much easier to understand. Think
I'll try to locate a group in my area and go watch them some weekend.
Sounds like one could learn quite a bit by just being there.

GWK

[Morgans]

"videoguy" > wrote
>
> I fail to see where any of my post indicates even the remotest interest in
> gory details. As someone who was unfamiliar with the sport of skydiving,
I
> asked what I considered to be valid questions.

I'm with you, on this one. Springer flew off the handle, with no good
reason.

In answer to your question, the big skydiving venues have more jumpers
waiting on the ground, to get a ride up. The sooner the jump plane is on
the ground, the sooner he can get loaded, and up again. Time is money, so
they rush as quickly as possible. The skydivers and the landing plane are
not supposed to be in the same area. My guess is that wind conditions were
different than expected, and the skydiver got in the wrong place, and
perhaps the plane was in the wrong place, also. Time will tell, as the
investigations take place.

Some planes, have turboprop engines, that are very powerful, and can climb
to altitude quickly with a heavy load. Right plane, for the job. Some of
them also have a feature called beta thrust, which allows the pilot to
reverse the propeller, so it pushes, or tries to push, the plane backwards.
This allows the plane to point almost straight down, select beta (reverse),
and keep the plane from exceeding the top allowable speed for the airplane.
Many planes with beta are not allowed to do this while flying, and only do
this after landing to slow the plane more quickly, or parking.
--
Jim in NC

[Jerry Springer]

Morgans wrote:
> "videoguy" > wrote
>
>>I fail to see where any of my post indicates even the remotest interest in
>>gory details. As someone who was unfamiliar with the sport of skydiving,
>
> I
>
>>asked what I considered to be valid questions.
>
>
> I'm with you, on this one. Springer flew off the handle, with no good
> reason.
>
> In answer to your question, the big skydiving venues have more jumpers
> waiting on the ground, to get a ride up. The sooner the jump plane is on
> the ground, the sooner he can get loaded, and up again. Time is money, so
> they rush as quickly as possible. The skydivers and the landing plane are
> not supposed to be in the same area. My guess is that wind conditions were
> different than expected, and the skydiver got in the wrong place, and
> perhaps the plane was in the wrong place, also. Time will tell, as the
> investigations take place.
>
> Some planes, have turboprop engines, that are very powerful, and can climb
> to altitude quickly with a heavy load. Right plane, for the job. Some of
> them also have a feature called beta thrust, which allows the pilot to
> reverse the propeller, so it pushes, or tries to push, the plane backwards.
> This allows the plane to point almost straight down, select beta (reverse),
> and keep the plane from exceeding the top allowable speed for the airplane.
> Many planes with beta are not allowed to do this while flying, and only do
> this after landing to slow the plane more quickly, or parking.

Apparently Morgan you have not been around when guys with names like
video guy post in this newsgroup asking for videos of of airplane
crashes and all of the details so they can make videos for profit. This
has happened in this newsgroup on several occasions. If Video guy is not
that person or a person like that then I apologize. IMO it is not funny
when people go phishing for gory videos and details of peoples
misfortunes to make money.


Jerry

[LCT Paintball]

IMO it is not funny
> when people go phishing for gory videos and details of peoples misfortunes
> to make money.
>
>
> Jerry

While I agree with your statement, I find it a little ironic considering the
name you post under. ;)

BTW, it that's your real name, I apologize for my comment.

[Morgans]

"Jerry Springer" > wrote \

> Apparently Morgan you have not been around when guys with names like
> video guy post in this newsgroup asking for videos of of airplane
> crashes and all of the details so they can make videos for profit. This
> has happened in this newsgroup on several occasions. If Video guy is not
> that person or a person like that then I apologize. IMO it is not funny
> when people go phishing for gory videos and details of peoples
> misfortunes to make money.


I've been around for several years now, and I also despise the crash
mongers. I have not seen any of this type of behavior from video guy, and
did not read any of that type of behavior in this line of questions.

An understandable sensitivity, but in this case I think (and hope) it is not
warranted.
--
Jim in NC

[Jerry Springer]

LCT Paintball wrote:
> IMO it is not funny
>
>>when people go phishing for gory videos and details of peoples misfortunes
>>to make money.
>>
>>
>>Jerry
>
>
> While I agree with your statement, I find it a little ironic considering the
> name you post under. ;)
>
> BTW, it that's your real name, I apologize for my comment.
>
>
My real name:-) I just wish I made the money the TV Jerry Springer
Makes. I would hate to have such a stupid TV show though.

Jerry (the real) Springer

[LCT Paintball]

> My real name:-) I just wish I made the money the TV Jerry Springer Makes.
> I would hate to have such a stupid TV show though.
>
> Jerry (the real) Springer

Suppose you could sue him for deformation of character? ;)

[videoguy]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jerry Springer" > wrote \
>
>> Apparently Morgan you have not been around when guys with names like
>> video guy post in this newsgroup asking for videos of of airplane
>> crashes and all of the details so they can make videos for profit. This
>> has happened in this newsgroup on several occasions. If Video guy is not
>> that person or a person like that then I apologize. IMO it is not funny
>> when people go phishing for gory videos and details of peoples
>> misfortunes to make money.
>
>
> I've been around for several years now, and I also despise the crash
> mongers. I have not seen any of this type of behavior from video guy, and
> did not read any of that type of behavior in this line of questions.
>
> An understandable sensitivity, but in this case I think (and hope) it is
> not
> warranted.
> --
> Jim in NC

RANT ON

It may or may not interest many of you, and some NOT at all, but videoguy is
a handle I took because I have a small video production company. It is not
my main source of income, but rather a hobby that has slowly evolved into a
small business. I am extremely particular about the type of videos I make.
Most of what I shoot is for other clients. In fact, I frequently decline
shooting a project that I feel is in poor taste, or that it might be
considered in poor taste by others. I certainly would NOT shoot (or even
edit for someone else) plane crashes, or any type work that contains gore or
exploits another's misfortune.

Additionally, I am a long-time and strong supporter of general aviation, and
a member of AOPA, EAA and EAA local chapter 32 in St. Louis, MO. The only
video I have been privileged to participate in that was in any way
aviation-related is a project about Chapter 32 and their Young Eagle
program. It isn't complete, but hope to finish it before YE day '05.
Incidentally, I explained much of this previously to Mr. Springer when he
accessed me of wanting to make a negative video about the Young Eagle
program. Guess he just forgot.

Personally, I am offended by his knee-jerk reaction to my questions. Would
he have been so venomous if my handle had been "sparky" or "'lectrician"?
Or... has the fact escaped just *me* that everyone who works in any capacity
with video work is automatically a slime ball?

GWK
aka - Gary W. Kasten
Digital Infinity Video Productions
St. Peters, MO

PS Since I posted the name of my video company, I guess NOW I am a spammer!

rant off

[Jerry Springer]

videoguy wrote:

I explained much of this previously to Mr. Springer when he
> accessed me of wanting to make a negative video about the Young Eagle
> program. Guess he just forgot.
>
> GWK
> aka - Gary W. Kasten
> Digital Infinity Video Productions
> St. Peters, MO
>
> PS Since I posted the name of my video company, I guess NOW I am a spammer!
>
> rant off
>
>
No I did not forget, it was the same thing, someone mentioned that there
had been an accident involving Young Eagles and you said basically the
same thing. It was something like "give me more details." Same thing
here, when it was mentioned that a skydiver had been hurt you jumped
right in and wanted more details. I also said if I was wrong I apologize
of course you probably will not read this because you have given my post
the "considerations they deserve." LOL!!!!

Jerry