Sad Accident over Deland

[Jay Honeck]

After landing in Deland, FL just last month (on our way to Titusville,
Florida), and witnessing the almost unbelievable sky-diving activity there,
it came as no surprise to read that there was a fatal accident there a
couple of days ago.

I was especially saddened to see that the man who was killed had his legs
severed by the prop of a Turbo Otter -- the very twins they use as
jump-planes in Deland. Some of you may recall my post about how those
Otters were "diving into the base leg of the pattern" as we were landing,
which we found to be very disconcerting.

The poor guy survived long enough to land safely, only to bleed out on the
ground. It's hard to imagine a more horrifying accident.

In my mind's eye I can picture the scene exactly. Those Otters diving
through an absolute *crowd* of skydivers under canopy (literally!) and other
planes in the pattern, trying to get back on the ground as quickly as
possible to haul up the next load -- it gave me the willies to watch.

I guess the only surprising thing is that this happens so rarely.

Very sad.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Very sad indeed, horrible story.

I had my close encounters with jump planes more than enough.
These are the very rare occasions that I want to have the military
version of my plane including the hardware.

-Kees

[Dave S]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> After landing in Deland, FL just last month (on our way to Titusville,
> Florida), and witnessing the almost unbelievable sky-diving activity there,
> it came as no surprise to read that there was a fatal accident there a
> couple of days ago.

Um, Jay.. are you saying that they are dangerous? Or were they at a
different comfort level than what you are used to? The pilot AND the
jumper involved, according to their peers (who have posted about this
incident), were VERY well known for their approach to safety. This was a
case of Big Sky/Small plane that didnt quite work out.

> I was especially saddened to see that the man who was killed had his legs
> severed by the prop of a Turbo Otter -- the very twins they use as
> jump-planes in Deland. Some of you may recall my post about how those
> Otters were "diving into the base leg of the pattern" as we were landing,
> which we found to be very disconcerting.
>
> The poor guy survived long enough to land safely, only to bleed out on the
> ground. It's hard to imagine a more horrifying accident.

No. That pretty much sums it up.. Bleedouts suck.
>
> In my mind's eye I can picture the scene exactly. Those Otters diving
> through an absolute *crowd* of skydivers under canopy (literally!)

I've seen pics of the jump plane heading down.. but I've never heard it
described like that before.

and other
> planes in the pattern, trying to get back on the ground as quickly as
> possible to haul up the next load -- it gave me the willies to watch.
>
> I guess the only surprising thing is that this happens so rarely.

Yanno... A lot of people say the same thing about people flying them
small planes.
>
> Very sad.

Yes.. And honestly, I think that the fact that accidents such as this
are so RARE is a testament to the safety of the system. Discussion among
the jumpers, both on usenet and in their forum.. lists a grand total of
maybe 4 people who have had fatal collisions with planes in God Knows
How Long.. FOUR. In YEARS.. More people than that DIED in the past 3
days in Houston Texas Traffic car wrecks. Its unfortunate that two of
the safest folks at the field (in the opinion of their peers) didn't see
and avoid each other.. with tragic results.

I flew into a drop zone on a private field a few years back.. The
operation was professional the whole way, and I coordinated with the
jump plane on the way in (and out) to avoid the flow of jumpers.. The
jump pilots knew where all their chutes were, and when they were on the
ground. I've personally not been to Deland, nor seen their operation,
but if they were as haphazard as you suggest, wouldn't it be raining
body parts from mangled meat-missles?

Dave

[Dylan Smith]

In article . net>, Dave S wrote:
> Yes.. And honestly, I think that the fact that accidents such as this
> are so RARE is a testament to the safety of the system. Discussion among
> the jumpers, both on usenet and in their forum.. lists a grand total of
> maybe 4 people who have had fatal collisions with planes in God Knows
> How Long.. FOUR. In YEARS..

More telling is that at skydiving's Oshkosh (the big convention at
Quincy, Illinois) there are more injuries on the days they DON'T fly
than on the days they do fly - and on the days they do fly there are
several jumpships in the air at once and many skydivers in the air at
once. They even jump out of a Boeing 727 on occasion.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dale]

In article <4eqbe.16614$c24.11911@attbi_s72>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:



> I was especially saddened to see that the man who was killed had his legs
> severed by the prop of a Turbo Otter -- the very twins they use as
> jump-planes in Deland. Some of you may recall my post about how those
> Otters were "diving into the base leg of the pattern" as we were landing,
> which we found to be very disconcerting.

The jumper was struck by the wing outboard of the left engine...he did
not hit the prop. Did you just assume it was a prop strike because of
the amputations?


> In my mind's eye I can picture the scene exactly. Those Otters diving
> through an absolute *crowd* of skydivers under canopy (literally!) and other
> planes in the pattern, trying to get back on the ground as quickly as
> possible to haul up the next load -- it gave me the willies to watch.

Your minds eye needs an adjustment. I wasn't there but I've made many
skydives and hauled even more loads of skydivers. The jump planes do
not dive "through an absolute crowd of skydivers". What a bunch of
crap! Jump pilots do try to be as efficient as possible getting a quick
turnaround for the next load. That doesn't mean we operate in a
reckless manner with "getting back for the next load" being the only
thing we're concentrating on. If you took the time to talk to some jump
pilots, or better yet ride with them, you'll find that the jump pilot
probably has a much better situational awareness then the usual GA pilot
coming into an airport. The jump pilot is well aware that he will be
descending into the airport area, that a midair collision risk is high.
He will take precautions/use procedures that help to lower the risk.

Just because an operation is outside your comfort zone or experience
level Jay does not mean it's unsafe or reckless.

This was a tragic accident. As another posted stated both the victim
and the pilot are known for being very safe operators.

And for the poster who made the comment about wanting the military gear
on his airplane because of jump planes...that made me laugh. You can't
imagine the number of times I've wished I had guns mounted on the jump
plane because of the unthinking, uncaring morons who come blasting
through a published, charted parachute operation placing themselves,
their passengers and the jumpers in great peril.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Dudley Henriques]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:11:44 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> > wrote:
>
>>After landing in Deland, FL just last month (on our way to Titusville,
>>Florida), and witnessing the almost unbelievable sky-diving activity
>>there,
>>it came as no surprise to read that there was a fatal accident there a
>>couple of days ago.
>>
>>I was especially saddened to see that the man who was killed had his legs
>>severed by the prop of a Turbo Otter -- the very twins they use as
>>jump-planes in Deland. Some of you may recall my post about how those
>>Otters were "diving into the base leg of the pattern" as we were landing,
>>which we found to be very disconcerting.
>>
>>The poor guy survived long enough to land safely, only to bleed out on the
>>ground. It's hard to imagine a more horrifying accident.
>>
>>In my mind's eye I can picture the scene exactly. Those Otters diving
>>through an absolute *crowd* of skydivers under canopy (literally!) and
>>other
>>planes in the pattern, trying to get back on the ground as quickly as
>>possible to haul up the next load -- it gave me the willies to watch.
> I was saddended to hear it too.
>
> I can't speak for that airport, but I've flown in and out of Zypher
> Hills many times watching and fitting in with he jump planes and
> jumpers.
>
> The jump planes do follow a pattern albeit steep and the only way I
> see one coming near a jumper is if the jumper is way out of position,
> or ends up landing on the runway. The Jump planes are normally well
> away from the jumpers.
>
>>
>>I guess the only surprising thing is that this happens so rarely.
>
> I'm surprised it happens with a jumper and their jump plane, but not
> is it was some one passing through. You'd be amazed at how many end
> up tooling through a jump zone.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>>
>>Very sad.

Even Notams don't work sometimes.

I remember like it was yesterday; standing at the Blues Com Trailer with
John Patton of the Blue Angels at the Reading Show in 74. Tony Less took the
Diamond straight up for the Diamond Loop. Both Patton and I saw the Cherokee
140 at the same time. John had a hot mike in his had and direct contact with
Tony in Blue 1. The formation went right past the Cherokee before either of
us could speak. We discovered in the post flight brief that none of the team
saw the Cherokee, and to this day, I honestly believe the pilot in the
Cherokee must have seen the team go by him. We judged he was close enough
that his pants were stained when he landed at where ever he was headed.
There are NOTAMS issued on the Blues performance times, and the field is
closed for traffic during demonstrations. We checked. All the NOTAMS were
intact. The times were correct. The guy in the Cherokee didn't read the
NOTAMS and wasn't advised either. He simply wandered in and flew right
through the restricted airspace unannounced and uninvited.
It happens!!!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)

[Ron Natalie]

Newps wrote:
> That's why it's stupid to skydive into an airport.

By the same argument, it's stupid to fly near an airport.
Sure makes it convenient to get on the airplane.

>These accidents happen every year.

Really? I can only think of this happenning one time bofore
when a meat bomb took out a cherokee.

[Ron Natalie]

Larry Dighera wrote:

>
> Of course, FARs* require pilots to obtain _ALL_ available information
> before flight. Given today's pop-up Temporary Flight Restrictions, it
> is even more important to check NOTAMs during the preflight briefing.
> The FSS briefer or DUATS should have issued the NOTAM related to the
> parachute activity. And if ATC is providing Radar Advisory Service,
> the controller providing traffic advisories would have warned of the
> hot drop zone.
>
If this is a regularly active drop zone, it gets published in the A/FD
and perhaps a parachute symbol on the chart, and there no longer is any
NOTAM for the briefer to report. They expect you to check the chart
and A/FD as part of your preflight planning.

ATC, workload permitting, is always a good thing to try, but not
foolproof.

[Dale]

In article >,
Newps > wrote:

> That's why it's stupid to skydive into an airport. These accidents
> happen every year.
>

Which accidents? There have been a few cases of jumpers in freefall
having a collision with an aircraft in flight but this is the first case
I've heard of a jumper under canopy being hit. And folks in the sport
that have been around a lot longer than I have don't remember this ever
happening before. You have date or place?

The biggest problem I've seen with jumping on a public airport is the GA
pilot that can't deal with an unusual situation, or doesn't take the
time to educate himself on his destination.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> That's no different than when I'm working the pattern in Iowa City
for
> an hour. Familiarity with the pattern should allow for greater
> situational awareness, if the pilot is on his/hers toes.

When you work in the pattern for hours a day, every day, for years,
then you can compare your situational awareness to that of a jump
pilot, especially at Deland or other large operations where they have
the best of them.


> but their greater speed and ability
> to stop on a dime using beta thrust made it all work out okay.

Of course it all worked out okay. The jump pilot never had any doubt
it would. They weren't taking a chance, they knew how much space they
had, what the typical GA aircraft is capable of, what their aircraft is
capable of, and how to maneuver around you.
I ran across effectively the same situation in the pattern when I was a
student in a C152 with a Bonanza sharing the pattern. Get this - I
felt unsafe FOLLOWING this plane at the distance my instructor told me.
It was TOO CLOSE to be safe. Yet guess what? He was probably on the
ground a good few minutes before I turned final. Just because I wasn't
experienced enough at the time to be comfortable, doesn't mean the
situation was unsafe.
In your case, you weren't experienced enough to be comfortable with it,
yet "it all worked out okay" because the jump pilot made sure it did.
It wasn't just coincidence.

[Montblack]

("Ron Natalie" wrote)
> Really? I can only think of this happenning one time bofore
> when a meat bomb took out a cherokee.


Didn't a person "land" on a prop - maybe in Europe/Russia - last year?

Seem to recall that story.


Montblack

[Dale]

In article >,
"Montblack" > wrote:


> Didn't a person "land" on a prop - maybe in Europe/Russia - last year?

From memory:

A jumper landed close in front of a running jump plane, parachute went
into the prop. I think this has happened twice..one fatality, one
serious injury.

At least one jumper hitting jump plane during descent...both landed okay.

At an airshow a jumper hit the airplane they had exited....was a
biplane...at least one fatal.

A jumper in freefall hit a glider in England within the last few years,
2 fatal.

A jumper if freefall hit a Cherokee (?)..jumper injured, all in a/c
fatal.

There are about 3 millions jumps each year in the US...with a large
percentage of them done over/onto an airport. The jumper/aircraft
collision isn't a big problem numbers wise.

As far as the Deland thing, I can easily see how it could happen without
a gross error on anyones part.

The "upward" visibilty from the cockpit isn't great in most airplanes
with a cabin roof. A jump plane will probably be descending steeply,
especially a turbine powered airplane. A jumper descends even steeper
than the aircraft does. It's very possible the pilot couldn't see the
jumper, and if the jumper was going away from the airplane he wouldn't
be able to see it...and probably woudn't hear it either. The big
question for me is why they both ended up in the same airspace.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:55:44 -0400, Ron Natalie >
wrote in >::

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>>
>> Of course, FARs* require pilots to obtain _ALL_ available information
>> before flight. Given today's pop-up Temporary Flight Restrictions, it
>> is even more important to check NOTAMs during the preflight briefing.
>> The FSS briefer or DUATS should have issued the NOTAM related to the
>> parachute activity. And if ATC is providing Radar Advisory Service,
>> the controller providing traffic advisories would have warned of the
>> hot drop zone.
>>
>If this is a regularly active drop zone, it gets published in the A/FD
>and perhaps a parachute symbol on the chart, and there no longer is any
>NOTAM for the briefer to report.

Here's the FAR:

Sec. 105.25 Parachute operations in designated airspace

(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in
command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be
conducted from that aircraft--
[...]
(3) Except as provided in paragraph (c) and (d) of this section,
within or into Class E or G airspace area unless the air traffic
control facility having jurisdiction over the airspace at the
first intended exit altitude is notified of the parachute
operation no earlier than 24 hours before or no later than 1 hour
before the parachute operation begins.
[...]
(c) For the purposes of paragraph (a)(3) of this section, air
traffic control facilities may accept a written notification from
an organization that conducts parachute operations and lists the
scheduled series of parachute operations to be conducted over a
stated period of time not longer than 12 calendar months. The
notification must contain the information prescribed by Sec.
105.15(a) of this part, identify the responsible persons
associated with that parachute operation, and be submitted at
least 15 days, but not more than 30 days, before the parachute
operation begins. The FAA may revoke the acceptance of the
notification for any failure of the organization conducting the
parachute operations to comply with its requirements.
[...]


>They expect you to check the chart and A/FD as part of your preflight
>planning.

Yes. That is required for every flight. ATC should still issue the
NOTAM as part of the preflight briefing.

>ATC, workload permitting, is always a good thing to try, but not
>foolproof.

True; ATC isn't required to alert pilots receiving Flight Following
services to an active drop zone, but in my experience, they seem to
make an effort to do so.

[Jay Honeck]

> Of course, FARs* require pilots to obtain _ALL_ available information
> before flight. Given today's pop-up Temporary Flight Restrictions,
it
> is even more important to check NOTAMs during the preflight briefing.
> The FSS briefer or DUATS should have issued the NOTAM related to the
> parachute activity. And if ATC is providing Radar Advisory Service,
> the controller providing traffic advisories would have warned of the
> hot drop zone.

Well, the FSS flight briefer I spoke with was located somewhere in
Northern Georgia, where we had gotten gas. He never mentioned anything
about skydiving activity.

And we used VFR flight following all the way. ATC never mentioned
anything about skydiving, either.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> In your case, you weren't experienced enough to be comfortable with
it,
> yet "it all worked out okay" because the jump pilot made sure it did.
> It wasn't just coincidence.

I never said it was. Jump plane pilots are some of the hardest working
pilots I've ever met (along with tow-plane pilots), and I imagine that
the pilots flying out of Deland -- one of the largest jump schools in
the world -- are considered to be the "best of the best."

Which, of course, doesn't take away from the tragedy of the accident.
Everyone in an operation that size is "playing the odds" -- and on that
day they lost, plain and simple.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Sengupta]

"Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in message
link.net...
> I remember like it was yesterday; standing at the Blues Com Trailer with
> John Patton of the Blue Angels at the Reading Show in 74. Tony Less took
the
> Diamond straight up for the Diamond Loop. Both Patton and I saw the
Cherokee
> 140 at the same time. John had a hot mike in his had and direct contact
with
> Tony in Blue 1. The formation went right past the Cherokee before either
of
> us could speak.
:
> We checked. All the NOTAMS were intact.

http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/hntoi.asp

"Over the past three years the Red Arrows' protected airspace was infringed
on 14 occasions. This not only posed real danger to all the aircraft
involved but also, in some cases, denied thousands of members of the public
the chance to see the team perform. "

Paul

[Dale]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:


> True; ATC isn't required to alert pilots receiving Flight Following
> services to an active drop zone, but in my experience, they seem to
> make an effort to do so.

It seems to depend on the individual controller. I work with Approach
at my DZ, some of the controllers are very helpful calling traffic,
advising other traffic of where the DZ is while some simply acknowledge
when I sign on and that's the last I hear from them.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Dave S]

Once its on the chart, and in the green book, its no longer on the
NOTAM. Its not the briefers job. Its the pilots. IF you flight follow
and are on approach's frequency, you WILL hear "One minute to jumpers"
and "Jumpers away" for the applicable areas. The jump plane is required
to notify the responsible approach/center for the area at those times.

I am acutely aware of several active and former dropzones near me. Two
are at private fields, and the other two are on public airports.

Dave

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Of course, FARs* require pilots to obtain _ALL_ available information
>>before flight. Given today's pop-up Temporary Flight Restrictions,
>
> it
>
>>is even more important to check NOTAMs during the preflight briefing.
>>The FSS briefer or DUATS should have issued the NOTAM related to the
>>parachute activity. And if ATC is providing Radar Advisory Service,
>>the controller providing traffic advisories would have warned of the
>>hot drop zone.
>
>
> Well, the FSS flight briefer I spoke with was located somewhere in
> Northern Georgia, where we had gotten gas. He never mentioned anything
> about skydiving activity.
>
> And we used VFR flight following all the way. ATC never mentioned
> anything about skydiving, either.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[[email protected]]

>Just because an operation is outside your comfort zone or experience
>level Jay does not mean it's unsafe or reckless.

Hmmm, maybe true.
But I do not like to be cut-off in the pattern, being over taken, never
mind somebody close on my tail where I can not see them.
That makes me nervous.

A jump pilot has more experience than me, but he/she can take in
consideration that there are lesser pilots flying out there.
If a pilot becomes nervous then mistakes are going to happen.

This is about the same as people keeping their dogs(ie pit-bull
terriers, rottweilers etc) unleashed, it is safe to their opinion.
It makes other people nervous.

-Kees

[Roger]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:46:21 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
<dhenriques@noware .net> wrote:

<snip>
>
>Even Notams don't work sometimes.
>
>I remember like it was yesterday; standing at the Blues Com Trailer with
>John Patton of the Blue Angels at the Reading Show in 74. Tony Less took the
>Diamond straight up for the Diamond Loop. Both Patton and I saw the Cherokee
>140 at the same time. John had a hot mike in his had and direct contact with
>Tony in Blue 1. The formation went right past the Cherokee before either of
>us could speak. We discovered in the post flight brief that none of the team
>saw the Cherokee, and to this day, I honestly believe the pilot in the
>Cherokee must have seen the team go by him. We judged he was close enough
>that his pants were stained when he landed at where ever he was headed.
>There are NOTAMS issued on the Blues performance times, and the field is
>closed for traffic during demonstrations. We checked. All the NOTAMS were
>intact. The times were correct. The guy in the Cherokee didn't read the
>NOTAMS and wasn't advised either. He simply wandered in and flew right
>through the restricted airspace unannounced and uninvited.
>It happens!!!!

Now that is scary!
There is always at least one who never gets the notification.

Last spring we had a pancake breakfast. (OK, last spring or the one
before) and it was a pretty good turn out. Lots of planes.

They received a call up in the terminal building that such and such a
Cherokee pilot should call the tower over at MBS. Seems as the guy
went merrily chugging right through their airspace about a 1000 AGL
right in front of an airliner who had to take evasive action and go
around. To say they weren't happy would be an understatement.

Last Fall before the elections the President was going to be in
Saginaw. There was a TFR in place (centered on MBS) and well
advertised. We knew about it nearly a week ahead. Actually we were
just one mile outside the no fly zone so we could go straight out, or
straight back home while talking to ATC.

Pilot: Ahhhh... MBS Approach, I have a jet off my wing tip. What does
that mean? What's going on?
MBS: unintelligible
Pilot: Do you want me to land?
(The pres was due in about 15 minutes. No they did not want him to
land!)
I'll be contacted at harbor Beach? Who should I call?
(I doubt he had to call any one as the big blue State Police cars were
probably waiting for him)

Of course there was the time a year or so back an airliner flew right
through our down wind leg for 24 slightly below pattern altitude which
is 1000 AGL.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
>dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
>(take out the trash :-)
>

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Dale wrote:
> with a cabin roof. A jump plane will probably be descending steeply,
> especially a turbine powered airplane. A jumper descends even steeper
> than the aircraft does.

With the exception of certain Pilatus models, which can overtake the
jumpers whilst they are in freefall!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dudley Henriques]

Sometimes I wonder about it.

I spent hours and hours and hours in hard practice getting as absolutely
sharp as I could be. Hell, at one time in my career I could slow roll an
airplane with an altimeter needle pinned on an entry altitude and not have
the needle move off the entry number through 180 degrees of roll. (the last
180 requires the nose to be lowered back to level flight :-)
In fact, my rule for low altitude work was that if I couldn't do five of
these in a row without blowing one on the low side, I'd start over again
until I got it right!
After all that........and the rest of what made up my being as sharp as I
had to be to work airplanes in the venue I did, I can sit here today after
all of it is said and done and tell you for an absolute certainty that if it
wasn't for some unknown element of sheer luck, I probably wouldn't have made
it through and survived.
It's funny about things like this. Kind of puts things in perspective for
the overconfident among us doesn't it????????? :-)))))
Dudley

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:46:21 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>
>>Even Notams don't work sometimes.
>>
>>I remember like it was yesterday; standing at the Blues Com Trailer with
>>John Patton of the Blue Angels at the Reading Show in 74. Tony Less took
>>the
>>Diamond straight up for the Diamond Loop. Both Patton and I saw the
>>Cherokee
>>140 at the same time. John had a hot mike in his had and direct contact
>>with
>>Tony in Blue 1. The formation went right past the Cherokee before either
>>of
>>us could speak. We discovered in the post flight brief that none of the
>>team
>>saw the Cherokee, and to this day, I honestly believe the pilot in the
>>Cherokee must have seen the team go by him. We judged he was close enough
>>that his pants were stained when he landed at where ever he was headed.
>>There are NOTAMS issued on the Blues performance times, and the field is
>>closed for traffic during demonstrations. We checked. All the NOTAMS were
>>intact. The times were correct. The guy in the Cherokee didn't read the
>>NOTAMS and wasn't advised either. He simply wandered in and flew right
>>through the restricted airspace unannounced and uninvited.
>>It happens!!!!
>
> Now that is scary!
> There is always at least one who never gets the notification.
>
> Last spring we had a pancake breakfast. (OK, last spring or the one
> before) and it was a pretty good turn out. Lots of planes.
>
> They received a call up in the terminal building that such and such a
> Cherokee pilot should call the tower over at MBS. Seems as the guy
> went merrily chugging right through their airspace about a 1000 AGL
> right in front of an airliner who had to take evasive action and go
> around. To say they weren't happy would be an understatement.
>
> Last Fall before the elections the President was going to be in
> Saginaw. There was a TFR in place (centered on MBS) and well
> advertised. We knew about it nearly a week ahead. Actually we were
> just one mile outside the no fly zone so we could go straight out, or
> straight back home while talking to ATC.
>
> Pilot: Ahhhh... MBS Approach, I have a jet off my wing tip. What does
> that mean? What's going on?
> MBS: unintelligible
> Pilot: Do you want me to land?
> (The pres was due in about 15 minutes. No they did not want him to
> land!)
> I'll be contacted at harbor Beach? Who should I call?
> (I doubt he had to call any one as the big blue State Police cars were
> probably waiting for him)
>
> Of course there was the time a year or so back an airliner flew right
> through our down wind leg for 24 slightly below pattern altitude which
> is 1000 AGL.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>>Dudley Henriques
>>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>>Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
>>dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
>>(take out the trash :-)
>>
>

[Chris Ehlbeck]

I had the briefer tell me of skydiving operations ONCE while an "official"
student on my long cross country. I knew of the operations at the airport
and additionally had informed the briefer I was a student pilot. He went so
far as to advise I'd probably still be with Atlanta approach at that point
and should here the calls before jumpers. He was right. I heard them on
both approach and the airport's CTAF. I've flown the same route since but
didn't get the information. I think I got it the first time only because I
said I was a student and the briefer was being helpful. But Dave is right.
If there are authorized or recognized skydiving operations it's on the chart
and in the AFD. It's even still in the AFD for airports where the DZ has
been closed for several years!

But what happened at Deland seems to be an unfortunate accident. They
happen, sadly.
--
Chris Ehlbeck, PP-ASEL
"It's a license to learn, have fun and buy really expensive hamburgers."

"Dave S" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Once its on the chart, and in the green book, its no longer on the
> NOTAM. Its not the briefers job. Its the pilots. IF you flight follow
> and are on approach's frequency, you WILL hear "One minute to jumpers"
> and "Jumpers away" for the applicable areas. The jump plane is required
> to notify the responsible approach/center for the area at those times.
>
> I am acutely aware of several active and former dropzones near me. Two
> are at private fields, and the other two are on public airports.
>
> Dave
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >>Of course, FARs* require pilots to obtain _ALL_ available information
> >>before flight. Given today's pop-up Temporary Flight Restrictions,
> >
> > it
> >
> >>is even more important to check NOTAMs during the preflight briefing.
> >>The FSS briefer or DUATS should have issued the NOTAM related to the
> >>parachute activity. And if ATC is providing Radar Advisory Service,
> >>the controller providing traffic advisories would have warned of the
> >>hot drop zone.
> >
> >
> > Well, the FSS flight briefer I spoke with was located somewhere in
> > Northern Georgia, where we had gotten gas. He never mentioned anything
> > about skydiving activity.
> >
> > And we used VFR flight following all the way. ATC never mentioned
> > anything about skydiving, either.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
>

[Chris Ehlbeck]

Might you be referring to a Porter? I've been on a few jump flights with a
guy who could do some amazing things with it.
--
Chris Ehlbeck, PP-ASEL
"It's a license to learn, have fun and buy really expensive hamburgers."

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> With the exception of certain Pilatus models, which can overtake the
> jumpers whilst they are in freefall!
>
> --
> Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
> Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
> Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
> "Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[OtisWinslow]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On 26 Apr 2005 11:08:21 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
> in . com>::
>
> The FSS briefer or DUATS should have issued the NOTAM related to the
> parachute activity.

I've never gotten a NOTAM on jumpers and I fly out of an airport with a
jump club that goes constantly. You can't rely on NOTAMS at all. I listen
to the radar controller for the over lying airspace and to the CTAF. At any
airport that I'm around that shows jump activity I do the same. Talk to the
jump plane and make sure he/she know where you're at and you know where
they are and what altitude and when they're throwing them out. It's a matter
of coordinating your pattern, or doing a 360 or two, until they get down.

I can't think of any excuse for a jump plane to be below his jumpers, no
matter how much other jump pilots justify it. The jumpers have the right
of way. It's careless/reckless operation and most likely negligent homicide.

[Dale]

In article om>,
wrote:


> But I do not like to be cut-off in the pattern, being over taken,
never
> mind somebody close on my tail where I can not see them.
> That makes me nervous.

True, people that do those things are jerks...but it doesn't mean
they're jump pilots. That crap is done by all "types" of pilots from
the low time weekender to the high time retired airline captain.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Dale]

In article >,
Dylan Smith > wrote:


>
> With the exception of certain Pilatus models, which can overtake the
> jumpers whilst they are in freefall!

Only for a short period early in the skydive. At altitudes where a
jumper is normally under canopy you won't see them going straight
down...at least not more than once.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Dale]

In article >,
"OtisWinslow" > wrote:


>
> I can't think of any excuse for a jump plane to be below his jumpers, no
> matter how much other jump pilots justify it. The jumpers have the right
> of way. It's careless/reckless operation and most likely negligent homicide.

Again, that's because you don't work in the environment. Get some
exposure to it, you'll find that it is done everyday and is quite safe.

If two airplanes collide in the pattern do you think that is
careless/reckless? Perhaps we should regulate so that only 1 aircraft
is allowed in the pattern at a time.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[OtisWinslow]

"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
>
> Again, that's because you don't work in the environment. Get some
> exposure to it, you'll find that it is done everyday and is quite safe.

I fly in that environment. There's a very active jump club at our
airport. I deal with it every nice day I fly and have for a long time.
If it's safe why in the world did he fly into the jumper? Keep the
jumpers below the airplane and you don't have an issue. They don't
always land or approach where you think they will. Anything within 1/2
mile of the drop target should be suspect.

>
> If two airplanes collide in the pattern do you think that is
> careless/reckless?

Absolutely.

[John Clear]

In article >,
Dylan Smith > wrote:
>In article >, Dale wrote:
>> with a cabin roof. A jump plane will probably be descending steeply,
>> especially a turbine powered airplane. A jumper descends even steeper
>> than the aircraft does.
>
>With the exception of certain Pilatus models, which can overtake the
>jumpers whilst they are in freefall!

There is a video somewhere on the net of a jumper stepping out of a
Porter, freefalling, and then joining up with the plane again and climbing back in.

I'll let someone else do the google magic.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[Ron Natalie]

OtisWinslow wrote:
>
> I can't think of any excuse for a jump plane to be below his jumpers, no
> matter how much other jump pilots justify it. The jumpers have the right
> of way. It's careless/reckless operation and most likely negligent homicide.


Actually jumpers DO NOT have the right of way. And I fail to see why
the jump plane getting down before the jumpers is in itself reckless.
Jumpers under canopy have a lousy descent rate and the jump plane has
good reasons not to just circle around waiting for these guys to come
down.

[Jay Honeck]

> I fly in that environment. There's a very active jump club at our
> airport. I deal with it every nice day I fly and have for a long time.
> If it's safe why in the world did he fly into the jumper? Keep the
> jumpers below the airplane and you don't have an issue. They don't
> always land or approach where you think they will. Anything within 1/2
> mile of the drop target should be suspect.

Deland is unlike any jump operation I've seen (and, admittedly, I haven't
seen more than a handful), in that there are literally no gaps between
jumps. They have so many jumpers that want to skydive that they are able to
keep two (and possibly more) Twin Otters running continually. They never
shut their engines down -- they simply taxi back to load, load as many as
will safely fit, and blast off again.

In fact, the only time we saw them stop was to refuel. It's an amazing
operation -- but one that doesn't allow a sensible suggestion like yours to
be implemented. There will ALWAYS be planes beneath jumpers in a
continuous operation like this one.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Rolf Blom]

On 2005-04-28 16:23, Jay Honeck wrote:
>>I fly in that environment. There's a very active jump club at our
>>airport. I deal with it every nice day I fly and have for a long time.
>>If it's safe why in the world did he fly into the jumper? Keep the
>>jumpers below the airplane and you don't have an issue. They don't
>>always land or approach where you think they will. Anything within 1/2
>>mile of the drop target should be suspect.
>
>
> Deland is unlike any jump operation I've seen (and, admittedly, I haven't
> seen more than a handful), in that there are literally no gaps between
> jumps. They have so many jumpers that want to skydive that they are able to
> keep two (and possibly more) Twin Otters running continually. They never
> shut their engines down -- they simply taxi back to load, load as many as
> will safely fit, and blast off again.
>
> In fact, the only time we saw them stop was to refuel. It's an amazing
> operation -- but one that doesn't allow a sensible suggestion like yours to
> be implemented. There will ALWAYS be planes beneath jumpers in a
> continuous operation like this one.

There was a jumper club at ESCN a few years ago, and they never shut
down their plane either; something about the turboprop engine start/stop
cycles being counted towards maintenance intervals instead of just
running time, but I'm not sure about how it worked exactly.

/Rolf

[Dave S]

Rolf Blom wrote:

> There was a jumper club at ESCN a few years ago, and they never shut
> down their plane either; something about the turboprop engine start/stop
> cycles being counted towards maintenance intervals instead of just
> running time, but I'm not sure about how it worked exactly.
>
> /Rolf
>

That is EXACTLY what its all about. Thermal stresses are caused by
temperature changes. Major temp changes are caused by startup/shutdown.
So, keep the turbines turning and burning and you reduce the maintenance
cycles incurred. That was one of the reasons that helicopter EMS guys
used to "hot load" (they still do in some places, particularly if its
the "second bird in, and can grab the patient and go")

Most turbines have to run for a few minutes after landing before
shutting down.. and then on startup have to run a few minutes again to
stabilize the temps to minimize the thermal stresses.

What I do NOT know for a fact is if total time, or total cycles, or a
combination of both is used for determining TBO (or I believe for
defining when periodic inspections - Hot Sections I think they call em)

Dave

[Roger]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:23:11 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> I fly in that environment. There's a very active jump club at our
>> airport. I deal with it every nice day I fly and have for a long time.
>> If it's safe why in the world did he fly into the jumper? Keep the
>> jumpers below the airplane and you don't have an issue. They don't
>> always land or approach where you think they will. Anything within 1/2
>> mile of the drop target should be suspect.
>
>Deland is unlike any jump operation I've seen (and, admittedly, I haven't
>seen more than a handful), in that there are literally no gaps between
>jumps. They have so many jumpers that want to skydive that they are able to
>keep two (and possibly more) Twin Otters running continually. They never
>shut their engines down -- they simply taxi back to load, load as many as
>will safely fit, and blast off again.

Zypher Hills was keeping 2 turboprop twins and a DC-3 running
virtually all the time. The turboprops would beat most of the jumpers
down. The DC-3 had an engine failure on take off a few years back and
they parked it in an orange grove. I think the worst injury was a
broken ankle.

the jumpers come down on the SE segment of the field while the planes
use 18/36. There is *usually* plenty of room, I've made 4 or 5 trips
in and out of there in one day when they were really busy.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>In fact, the only time we saw them stop was to refuel. It's an amazing
>operation -- but one that doesn't allow a sensible suggestion like yours to
>be implemented. There will ALWAYS be planes beneath jumpers in a
>continuous operation like this one.