Alarming news stories on instructor and student down at HPN

[Tom Fleischman]

Here a couple of alarming stories about the pilots who went down at HPN
last weekend:

First:

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050426/NEWS02
/504260335/1018&template=printart

Pertinent quote:

> Paramedic had set sights on sky
>
> By BILL HUGHES AND CANDICE FERRETTE
>
> THE JOURNAL NEWS
>
> YONKERS ‹ Paramedic Lev Naoumov briefly considered going to medical
> school after graduating from college with a biology degree before the
> urge to become a professional pilot took hold of him a few months ago.
>
> Yesterday, his family and friends were still reeling from the outcome
> of that career decision, which led to the well-liked 23-year-old man's
> death, along with his instructor, in a plane crash Saturday
> <snip>
> Gary Reben, 27, another fellow paramedic, said that he had been out
> shooting pool with Naoumov on Friday night, and his friend had said he
> would not be flying the next day because of bad weather in the
> forecast.

And...

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050426/NEWS02
/504260334/1018&template=printart

Pertinent quote:

> By RICHARD LIEBSON
> THE JOURNAL NEWS
> (Original Publication: April 26, 2005)
>
> PORT CHESTER ‹ A flight instructor who was killed in a plane crash
> Saturday afternoon near Westchester County Airport did not like flying
> in bad weather but was working overtime to save money so he could visit
> his ailing father in a Puerto Rican hospital, his brother said
> yesterday.


So here we have an instructor who is looking to work overtime to make
enough money to go to Puerto Rico to visit his sick father and a
student pilot who was out late the night before drinking in a bar
because he didn't expect to be flying the next day.

This does NOT look good.

[john smith]

Tom Fleischman wrote:
> Here a couple of alarming stories about the pilots who went down at HPN
> last weekend:

Interesting that you choose to use the word "alarming".
Do you actually believe everything the newspapers print?

> This does NOT look good.

You seem to be inferring quite a bit from an untrained, incomplete
source for aviation accident investigation determination.

[Gary Drescher]

"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
message
news:260420051651377491%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
> So here we have an instructor who is looking to work overtime to make
> enough money to go to Puerto Rico to visit his sick father and a
> student pilot who was out late the night before drinking in a bar
> because he didn't expect to be flying the next day.
>
> This does NOT look good.

Except that the articles you cited said nothing about being in a bar, or
drinking. And even he had been, he could still have been in perfectly
reasonable shape to fly the following afternoon. And there's certainly
nothing unusual about a flight instructor needing money.

--Gary

[Montblack]

("Tom Fleischman" wrote)
> http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050426/NEWS02
> /504260335/1018&template=printart

http://tinyurl.com/cadmn
(same link as above)


> http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050426/NEWS02
> /504260334/1018&template=printart

http://tinyurl.com/b8p8s
(same link as above)


Montblack

[Tom Fleischman]

In article >, john smith
> wrote:

> Tom Fleischman wrote:
> > Here a couple of alarming stories about the pilots who went down at HPN
> > last weekend:
>
> Interesting that you choose to use the word "alarming".
> Do you actually believe everything the newspapers print?
>

What I find alarming is that this instructor chose to take his primary
student out flying on perhaps the worst day for weather flying in the
past few months.

> > This does NOT look good.
>
> You seem to be inferring quite a bit from an untrained, incomplete
> source for aviation accident investigation determination.

I'm not saying that I have determined anything, so please do not put
words in my mouth. What I said was that from a pilot's perspective, as
well as from that of the general public, this does not look good.

Can you say "reckless and careless"?

[Tom Fleischman]

In article >, Gary Drescher
> wrote:

> "Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
> message
> news:260420051651377491%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
> > So here we have an instructor who is looking to work overtime to make
> > enough money to go to Puerto Rico to visit his sick father and a
> > student pilot who was out late the night before drinking in a bar
> > because he didn't expect to be flying the next day.
> >
> > This does NOT look good.
>
> Except that the articles you cited said nothing about being in a bar, or
> drinking. And even he had been, he could still have been in perfectly
> reasonable shape to fly the following afternoon.

You are absolutely right, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that if he
was shooting pool late at night it was probably in a bar, and if he was
shooting pool late at night he was probably also drinking, particulary
if he didn't think that he'd be flying the next day.

> And there's certainly
> nothing unusual about a flight instructor needing money.
>

No, but there is something unusual about an instructor taking a primary
student out in weather that bad.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
message
news:260420051651377491%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
> Here a couple of alarming stories about the pilots who went down at HPN
> last weekend:
>
> First:
>
> http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050426/NEWS02
> /504260335/1018&template=printart
>
> Pertinent quote:
>
>> Paramedic had set sights on sky
>>
>> By BILL HUGHES AND CANDICE FERRETTE
>>
>> THE JOURNAL NEWS
>>
>> YONKERS < Paramedic Lev Naoumov briefly considered going to medical
>> school after graduating from college with a biology degree before the
>> urge to become a professional pilot took hold of him a few months ago.
>>
>> Yesterday, his family and friends were still reeling from the outcome
>> of that career decision, which led to the well-liked 23-year-old man's
>> death, along with his instructor, in a plane crash Saturday
>> <snip>
>> Gary Reben, 27, another fellow paramedic, said that he had been out
>> shooting pool with Naoumov on Friday night, and his friend had said he
>> would not be flying the next day because of bad weather in the
>> forecast.
>
> And...
>
> http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050426/NEWS02
> /504260334/1018&template=printart
>
> Pertinent quote:
>
>> By RICHARD LIEBSON
>> THE JOURNAL NEWS
>> (Original Publication: April 26, 2005)
>>
>> PORT CHESTER < A flight instructor who was killed in a plane crash
>> Saturday afternoon near Westchester County Airport did not like flying
>> in bad weather but was working overtime to save money so he could visit
>> his ailing father in a Puerto Rican hospital, his brother said
>> yesterday.
>
>
> So here we have an instructor who is looking to work overtime to make
> enough money to go to Puerto Rico to visit his sick father and a
> student pilot who was out late the night before drinking in a bar
> because he didn't expect to be flying the next day.
>
> This does NOT look good.

Everybody knows my feelings about these things, so don't take this
personally. I feel this way generally, and my criticizm is general in nature
and not meant to flame you. I hope you take it that way.

All depends on your perspective. It might not look good to you or to someone
else, but to me, it looks like a whole lot of assumption from reading
something in a news article at a WAY too early point in an accident
investigation.

You know what this ACTUALLY reminds me of...I'll tell you.

It reminds me of something we demonstration pilots would talk about from
time to time in some back room at some airport or airbase flight ops after a
show when we got together with each other and got rid of the "outsiders".
We would laugh over a coke or two and discuss our business.

We all seemed to agree on one thing when the subject came up. That when
doing a low altitude demonstration, if our bird suddenly suffered a
catastrophic failure inside it somewhere and caused one of us to dig a VERY
big hole in the middle of the field as our last act on earth, we could
always count on at least one guy watching from the crowd to run out to the
crash; stand there and shout to the world what HE thought we had done wrong
to cause the crash.
In other words, you can speculate like this if it's your thing. For all I
know you're a really nice fellow with perfectly innocent intentions. You
might not be that guy in the crowd for all I know. :-)))))
Like I said, no personal flame intended, but
just be aware that there are a WHOLE lot of professionals out here who don't
say things like this after a crash and don't care for it much at all.
In our circle you can find yourself drinking very much alone at the bar
thinking like this. I'm not you, but FWIW, I'd wait for some substantial
results before commenting like this on any crash and leave the early
speculation to the grade school set.

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)

[R.L.]

Lets all admit that this accident was the confluence and outcome of serial
misjudgments, just like the examples in the textbooks. Can anyone argue that
good judgment ruled the day?

That flight had no business happening. That instructor had no business
taking a VFR primary student on a cross-country to Albany in Saturday's
weather and back practicing instrument approaches in really low IMC under
pressure to "work overtime". That primary student had no business flying
low IMC without a modicum of instrument training after a night shooting pool
[--and downing a few beers expecting not to fly- does anyone doubt the
likelihood of a young guy and few beers in a pool hall in Yonkers?-] and
subjugating his cautious expectations to the anxieties of money-anxious
instructor. The school had no business having a policy void against sending
up an off-the-shelf C172 in low IMC with the temp/dewpoint spread at zero
with a VFR primary student.

I invite all the posters who previously characterized this flight as a
CFII's opportunity to introduce a VFR primary student to the wonders of a
low IMC cross country as a confidence builder, to run that by me again.
Please also try to argue that this wasn't a major CFIT ****-up!





"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Fleischman wrote:
> > Here a couple of alarming stories about the pilots who went down at HPN
> > last weekend:
>
> Interesting that you choose to use the word "alarming".
> Do you actually believe everything the newspapers print?
>
> > This does NOT look good.
>
> You seem to be inferring quite a bit from an untrained, incomplete
> source for aviation accident investigation determination.

[Scott Moore]

Tom Fleischman wrote:
> Here a couple of alarming stories about the pilots who went down at HPN
> last weekend:

Aside from being a reader's digest tearjerker, was there any point whatever
to this ? A bunch of non-pilots saying "I knew flying was dangerous" ?

I have people in my own family who predicted I would kill myself flying,
who are unimpressed by me passing 500 hours without the slightest
incident.

The public does not *get* flying. If they did, they would do it. People
ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
think nothing of it.

[Scott Moore]

Tom Fleischman wrote:

> What I find alarming is that this instructor chose to take his primary
> student out flying on perhaps the worst day for weather flying in the
> past few months.
>
>
>>>This does NOT look good.
>>
>>You seem to be inferring quite a bit from an untrained, incomplete
>>source for aviation accident investigation determination.
>
>
> I'm not saying that I have determined anything, so please do not put
> words in my mouth. What I said was that from a pilot's perspective, as
> well as from that of the general public, this does not look good.
>
> Can you say "reckless and careless"?

Just stop. If the instrutor was IFR rated, and he was flying, it was
a straightforward deal. My instructor demoed IFR flights for me many
times during my IFR training, does that make him an idiot ?

What say we find out what really happened.

[Scott Moore]

R.L. wrote:
> Lets all admit that this accident was the confluence and outcome of serial
> misjudgments, just like the examples in the textbooks. Can anyone argue that
> good judgment ruled the day?
>
> That flight had no business happening. That instructor had no business
> taking a VFR primary student on a cross-country to Albany in Saturday's
> weather and back practicing instrument approaches in really low IMC under

They are in IMC, or IMC develops at home while they are off. Instructor offers
that he can fly in or out in IMC, so they can still do the day somewhere else.
If the instructor is rated, thats perfectly ok. If he wasn't, and the field
was IFR, then you have a case.

The rest of this speculation and horse**** is deleted. These people are dead.
They are not going to get undead anytime soon, so they can wait for a proper
investigation. You can't ? Tough.

[Robert M. Gary]

Do we know how the weather was? I've taken students out when the AWOS
says 1/2 mile vis with indef ceiling 100 feet (we get a lot of fog
around here). It's good practice for the student to shoot real
approaches with some misses (we have above fog alternates close by). An
approach to a 100 foot ceiling is interesting since it usually means
you see the rabbit at 200 feet.
-Robert, CFI

[Robert M. Gary]

What is bad? Below IFR mins? Primary students SHOULD get some actual
cloud time.

-Robert, CFI

[[email protected]]

Scott Moore > wrote:
> The public does not *get* flying. If they did, they would do it. People
> ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
> think nothing of it.

Now you sound like the reporter! Most people that have been riding
(motorcycles) for any length of time don't "think nothing of it" ...
most are well aware of the danger and risk involved.

[Tom Fleischman]

In article . com>,
Robert M. Gary > wrote:

> What is bad? Below IFR mins? Primary students SHOULD get some actual
> cloud time.
>
> -Robert, CFI
>

VV 200', Indefinate ceiling, very low visibility, temp/dewpoint spread
0 degrees, gusty winds and heavy rain on and off throughout the day.
I'd say it was pretty bad.

Would you really take a primary student out on a day like that? I
didn't fly that day, wouldn't have if you asked me to. They had no
business being there. I do not disagree with you that taking a primary
student on an IFR flight in actual can be a good thing. In fact I took
such a flight during my primary training as it was a wonderful learning
experience. There are good times to do it and bad times to do it. I do
not think it's necessary to take a primary student down to minimums in
order to give him or her the experience of being in IMC. Saturday was
a very bad day to be doing this. That's my opinion.

If I seem particularly ****ed about this it is because this is the type
of thing that gives GA a black eye and could lead to the closing of an
airport. Believe me, HPN has had enough pressure on it before this.
This will only make it worse.

I'll lay off now. Thanks for listening.

[Gary Drescher]

> wrote in message
...
> Scott Moore > wrote:
>> The public does not *get* flying. If they did, they would do it. People
>> ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
>> think nothing of it.
>
> Now you sound like the reporter! Most people that have been riding
> (motorcycles) for any length of time don't "think nothing of it" ...
> most are well aware of the danger and risk involved.

Furthermore, as has been amply documented in other threads here, the risk of
GA flying is about comparable to the risk of motorcycle riding; motorcycles
are not "far more likely" to get you killed.

--Gary

[Peter R.]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> What is bad? Below IFR mins? Primary students SHOULD get some actual
> cloud time.

According to the METARs that corresponded to the accident time, the weather
was low IFR to below minimums.

In another thread someone posted a link that showed the METAR history from
that day.

--
Peter













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[R.L.]

Amen


"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
message
news:260420052122024335%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
> In article . com>,
> Robert M. Gary > wrote:
>
>> What is bad? Below IFR mins? Primary students SHOULD get some actual
>> cloud time.
>>
>> -Robert, CFI
>>
>
> VV 200', Indefinate ceiling, very low visibility, temp/dewpoint spread
> 0 degrees, gusty winds and heavy rain on and off throughout the day.
> I'd say it was pretty bad.
>
> Would you really take a primary student out on a day like that? I
> didn't fly that day, wouldn't have if you asked me to. They had no
> business being there. I do not disagree with you that taking a primary
> student on an IFR flight in actual can be a good thing. In fact I took
> such a flight during my primary training as it was a wonderful learning
> experience. There are good times to do it and bad times to do it. I do
> not think it's necessary to take a primary student down to minimums in
> order to give him or her the experience of being in IMC. Saturday was
> a very bad day to be doing this. That's my opinion.
>
> If I seem particularly ****ed about this it is because this is the type
> of thing that gives GA a black eye and could lead to the closing of an
> airport. Believe me, HPN has had enough pressure on it before this.
> This will only make it worse.
>
> I'll lay off now. Thanks for listening.

[R.L.]

The reason (why they went up) nags at me more than the cause (why they went
down). The latter is the NTSB's bailiwick. The former should be ours (as
pilots). I don't want to wait for the outcome of an investigation later
for the lesson I should be learning now.

And I am sickened over the fact that two pilots' precious lives were
lost...on a whim, it seems.



"Scott Moore" > wrote in message
...
> R.L. wrote:
>> Lets all admit that this accident was the confluence and outcome of
>> serial
>> misjudgments, just like the examples in the textbooks. Can anyone argue
>> that
>> good judgment ruled the day?
>>
>> That flight had no business happening. That instructor had no business
>> taking a VFR primary student on a cross-country to Albany in Saturday's
>> weather and back practicing instrument approaches in really low IMC under
>
> They are in IMC, or IMC develops at home while they are off. Instructor
> offers
> that he can fly in or out in IMC, so they can still do the day somewhere
> else.
> If the instructor is rated, thats perfectly ok. If he wasn't, and the
> field
> was IFR, then you have a case.
>
> The rest of this speculation and horse**** is deleted. These people are
> dead.
> They are not going to get undead anytime soon, so they can wait for a
> proper
> investigation. You can't ? Tough.
>

[OtisWinslow]

"Scott Moore" > wrote in message
...
> People
> ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
> think nothing of it.


Actually the accident fatality rate is about the same for motorcycles and
GA. Since I do both .. I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big one.

[Nathan Young]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:45:39 GMT, "OtisWinslow"
> wrote:

>
>"Scott Moore" > wrote in message
...
>> People
>> ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
>> think nothing of it.
>
>
>Actually the accident fatality rate is about the same for motorcycles and
>GA. Since I do both .. I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big one.

Statistically speaking, it would only double your chance if you did
both at the same time? That would take one big GA plane!

:-)

[paul kgyy]

Ahh, good, trial by newspaper. Whatever do we need NTSB for? Should
be disbanded.

[Everett M. Greene]

"OtisWinslow" > writes:
> "Scott Moore" > wrote
> > People
> > ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
> > think nothing of it.
>
> Actually the accident fatality rate is about the same for motorcycles and
> GA. Since I do both .. I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big one.

Dead man walking? :-)

[Andrew Gideon]

OtisWinslow wrote:

> I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big one.

It reduces your chances of being killed by one or the other.

- Andrew

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:45:39 GMT, "OtisWinslow"
> wrote:

>
>"Scott Moore" > wrote in message
...
>> People
>> ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
>> think nothing of it.
>
>
>Actually the accident fatality rate is about the same for motorcycles and
>GA. Since I do both .. I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big one.
>


Only if you do both simultaneously

[John Galban]

OtisWinslow wrote:
>
> Actually the accident fatality rate is about the same for motorcycles
and
> GA. Since I do both .. I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big
one.

I have an occasional "Danger Day", where I ride my motorcycle to the
airport, jump in my plane and fly to another airport, then go skydiving
at the destination.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[OtisWinslow]

Well that sure makes me feel better. Maybe I'll ride to the airport
tonight and go flying.

"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
...
>
> Statistically speaking, it would only double your chance if you did
> both at the same time? That would take one big GA plane!
>
> :-)
>
>

[OtisWinslow]

I draw the line at jumping out of a still flying airplane.


"John Galban" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> OtisWinslow wrote:
>>
>> Actually the accident fatality rate is about the same for motorcycles
> and
>> GA. Since I do both .. I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big
> one.
>
> I have an occasional "Danger Day", where I ride my motorcycle to the
> airport, jump in my plane and fly to another airport, then go skydiving
> at the destination.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>

[Jose]

>> I draw the line at jumping out of a still flying airplane.

IF the airplane is flying, but it's still still, I might consider
exiting too. :)

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Andrew Gideon]

Jose wrote:


> IF the airplane is flying, but it's still still, I might consider
> exiting too. :)

Not exciting; just a decent headwind.

- Andrew

[R.L.]

But a still flying airplane is flying a still. And if the airplane is flying
a still, why would I exit? I'm staying right there flying until I'm flying.
(hic)

"Jose" > wrote in message
. ..
> >> I draw the line at jumping out of a still flying airplane.
>
> IF the airplane is flying, but it's still still, I might consider
> exiting too. :)
>
> Jose
> --
> Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:45:39 GMT, "OtisWinslow"
> wrote:

>
>"Scott Moore" > wrote in message
...
>> People
>> ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
>> think nothing of it.
>
>
>Actually the accident fatality rate is about the same for motorcycles and
>GA. Since I do both .. I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big one.
>


Only if you do both simultaneously

[Matt Whiting]

OtisWinslow wrote:

> "Scott Moore" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>People
>>ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
>>think nothing of it.
>
>
>
> Actually the accident fatality rate is about the same for motorcycles and
> GA. Since I do both .. I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big one.
>
>

Me too. However, at least we'll have lived a life worth living!

Matt

[Scott Moore]

John Galban wrote:
> OtisWinslow wrote:
>
>>Actually the accident fatality rate is about the same for motorcycles
>
> and
>
>>GA. Since I do both .. I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big
>
> one.
>
> I have an occasional "Danger Day", where I ride my motorcycle to the
> airport, jump in my plane and fly to another airport, then go skydiving
> at the destination.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>

What happens to your airplane after you bail out ?

Sorry, just had to....

[Scott D.]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:00:34 GMT, Matt Whiting >
wrote:

>OtisWinslow wrote:
>
>> "Scott Moore" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>People
>>>ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
>>>think nothing of it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually the accident fatality rate is about the same for motorcycles and
>> GA. Since I do both .. I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big one.
>>
>>
>
>Me too. However, at least we'll have lived a life worth living!
>
>Matt


Amen. I dont know what I would do without my motorcycle or my plane!


Scott D

To email remove spamcatcher's

[OtisWinslow]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Me too. However, at least we'll have lived a life worth living!
>
> Matt

Yeh my worst fear is I'll be laying there old and gray and ready to croak
wishing I'd done this or that. Instead as I'm taking my last breath I want
to be thinking "cooool .. what a ride".