Folded wing tip question

[a425couple]

I have a old question, maybe someone can refute, or verify?

I tend to mistrust 'sea-stories' w.o. cites. Sometimes I think
they likely true, probably partly true, or unlikely.
But some good ones stick in my mind, from all categories.

Making the rounds circa 1972 was that a F4 with folding wings
(story was MC, possib. Navy) taxied out (story was at Kadena)
got clearance to take off, hit afterburners and got enough thrust
to take off. Sheesh - wingtips were still folded up. Could only
stay in air with afterburner thrust, had to eject, dumped $4 mil.
plane in East China Sea. True or not? Ever true anywhere
or anytime to anyone??

I have seen (recently sited on s.m.n.) what appears to be a
picture of a plane (A-7?) flying with tips folded, so ???

[W. D. Allen Sr.]

That story is at least as old as the WW II F4U Corsair.

WDA

end

"a425couple" > wrote in message
...
>
> I have a old question, maybe someone can refute, or verify?
>
> I tend to mistrust 'sea-stories' w.o. cites. Sometimes I think
> they likely true, probably partly true, or unlikely.
> But some good ones stick in my mind, from all categories.
>
> Making the rounds circa 1972 was that a F4 with folding wings
> (story was MC, possib. Navy) taxied out (story was at Kadena)
> got clearance to take off, hit afterburners and got enough thrust
> to take off. Sheesh - wingtips were still folded up. Could only
> stay in air with afterburner thrust, had to eject, dumped $4 mil.
> plane in East China Sea. True or not? Ever true anywhere
> or anytime to anyone??
>
> I have seen (recently sited on s.m.n.) what appears to be a
> picture of a plane (A-7?) flying with tips folded, so ???
>
>
>

[John Miller]

W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:
> That story is at least as old as the WW II F4U Corsair.

That and...although I've got zero time in the F4, I'm betting that one
could go ballistic long enough to get the tips down and locked. Anyone?

--
John Miller
email domain: n4vu.com; username: jsm(@)
Surplus (For sale or trade):
Besson (Kanstul) International Trumpet

[a425couple]

"W. D. Allen Sr." > wrote in message
> "a425couple" > wrote
> > I have a old question, maybe someone can refute, or verify?
> > I tend to mistrust 'sea-stories' w.o. cites.
> > Making the rounds circa 1972 was that a F4 with folding wings
> > (story was MC, possib. Navy) taxied out (story was at Kadena)
> > got clearance to take off, hit afterburners and got enough thrust
> > to take off. Sheesh - wingtips were still folded up. Could only
> > stay in air with afterburner thrust, had to eject, dumped $4 mil.
> > plane in East China Sea.
> > True or not? Ever true anywhere or anytime to anyone??
> > I have seen (recently sited on s.m.n.) what appears to be a
> > picture of a plane (A-7?) flying with tips folded, so ???
> That story is at least as old as the WW II F4U Corsair. WDA

Thank you Mr. Allen,
Yes, I will accept that it is an old story, and that it sounds to
"good" or "bad" to be true. But sometimes they are, so I asked.

A good poster over on s.m.n. gave me this link, "
http://www.vmf235.com/f8_wingsfolded.jpg not F-4 but if I read the
photo credit right is Marine. You have to careful with Google refs ---"
Anyone know if this photo is real, and what outcome was?

And on the other response, yes, I also thought some maneuver
could be done in flight to help wing lower (balistic or stall) but
was answered that hydralics could not overcome aerodynamics.
Hey, he was Airdale, I was grunt, I enjoyed drink and talk.
Questioned him no further on that, 30 years later, I am courious.

[Greasy Rider© @invalid.com]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:02:16 -0700, "a425couple"
> postulated :
>
>I have a old question, maybe someone can refute, or verify?
>
>I tend to mistrust 'sea-stories' w.o. cites. Sometimes I think
>they likely true, probably partly true, or unlikely.
>But some good ones stick in my mind, from all categories.

I posed the question to an old AD-6 Skyraider pilot from the 50's.

Here is his answer:


--------------start----------------
Sadly, in the case of our favorite airplane, AD's, it's true! No one
ever landed intact. The few AD's that did take off with folded wings
crashed shortly after takeoff.

The F8U is a different story. There were a couple of instances when
those birds actually got airborne, and then landed safely.

Kit

------------end-----------------

[Yofuri]

a425couple wrote:
> I have a old question, maybe someone can refute, or verify?
>
> I tend to mistrust 'sea-stories' w.o. cites. Sometimes I think
> they likely true, probably partly true, or unlikely.
> But some good ones stick in my mind, from all categories.
>
> Making the rounds circa 1972 was that a F4 with folding wings
> (story was MC, possib. Navy) taxied out (story was at Kadena)
> got clearance to take off, hit afterburners and got enough thrust
> to take off. Sheesh - wingtips were still folded up. Could only
> stay in air with afterburner thrust, had to eject, dumped $4 mil.
> plane in East China Sea. True or not? Ever true anywhere
> or anytime to anyone??
>
> I have seen (recently sited on s.m.n.) what appears to be a
> picture of a plane (A-7?) flying with tips folded, so ???
>
>
>
I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS
Miramar in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn downwind
and one panel separated. The only injury was superficial glass cuts to
a toddler in a house on the lip of a canyon when wreckage shattered the
patio door.

Rick

[a425couple]

"Yofuri" > wrote in message
> I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS
> Miramar in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn downwind
> and one panel separated. The only injury was superficial glass cuts to
> a toddler in a house on the lip of a canyon when wreckage shattered the
> patio door. Rick

Thank you very much. Think that is the one pictured
in the link?

[a425couple]

<Greasy Rider© @invalid.com> wrote in message
> AD-6 Skyraider pilot from the 50's.
> AD's, it's true! No one ever landed intact. - few AD's
> that did take off with folded wings crashed shortly after takeoff.
> The F8U is a different story. There were a couple of instances
> when those birds actually got airborne, and then landed safely.

Thank you Greasy Rider. So the main premise is true and
valid. Pilots have taken off with this 'problem' and crashed
(and some have landed safely!!).
We just do not know yet about specific, F-4 at Kadena.

[Yofuri]

a425couple wrote:
> "Yofuri" > wrote in message
>
>>I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS
>>Miramar in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn downwind
>>and one panel separated. The only injury was superficial glass cuts to
>>a toddler in a house on the lip of a canyon when wreckage shattered the
>>patio door. Rick
>
>
> Thank you very much. Think that is the one pictured
> in the link?
>
>
Could you repeat the link? I missed it.

Rick

[a425couple]

"Yofuri" > wrote in message
> a425couple wrote:
> > "Yofuri" > wrote in message
> >>I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS
> >>Miramar in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn downwind
> >>and one panel separated. The only injury was superficial glass cuts to
> >>a toddler in a house on the lip of a canyon when wreckage shattered the
> >>patio door. Rick
> > Thank you very much. Think that is the one pictured in the link?
> Could you repeat the link? I missed it. Rick

Sure A good poster over on s.m.n. gave me this link, "
http://www.vmf235.com/f8_wingsfolded.jpg not F-4 but if I read the
photo credit right is Marine. You have to careful with Google refs ---"
Anyone know if this photo is real, and what outcome was?

[John Carrier]

To my knowledge, the A-7 has never successfully completed a wings-folded
flight. Big problem is that the ailerons on the outer (folded) wing panels
so only the spoilers on the upper surface of the wing and rudder would be
available for roll control. The airplane is also not loaded in the T/W
department, so the takeoff roll would be excruciatingly long.

An F-8 did complete a wings-folded hop, out of Sigonella IIRC. The Phantom
should certainly have had the capability and afterburner wouldn't have been
the limiting factor. I know of no documented cases of the F-4 doing so.
Hopefully, a second brain in the cockpit might catch the oversight prior to
T/O.

R / John

"Yofuri" > wrote in message
...
> a425couple wrote:
>> I have a old question, maybe someone can refute, or verify?
>>
>> I tend to mistrust 'sea-stories' w.o. cites. Sometimes I think
>> they likely true, probably partly true, or unlikely.
>> But some good ones stick in my mind, from all categories.
>>
>> Making the rounds circa 1972 was that a F4 with folding wings
>> (story was MC, possib. Navy) taxied out (story was at Kadena)
>> got clearance to take off, hit afterburners and got enough thrust
>> to take off. Sheesh - wingtips were still folded up. Could only
>> stay in air with afterburner thrust, had to eject, dumped $4 mil.
>> plane in East China Sea. True or not? Ever true anywhere
>> or anytime to anyone??
>>
>> I have seen (recently sited on s.m.n.) what appears to be a
>> picture of a plane (A-7?) flying with tips folded, so ???
>>
>>
>>
> I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS Miramar
> in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn downwind and one
> panel separated. The only injury was superficial glass cuts to a toddler
> in a house on the lip of a canyon when wreckage shattered the patio door.
>
> Rick

[Dave in San Diego]

"a425couple" > wrote in
:

>
> "Yofuri" > wrote in message
>> a425couple wrote:
>> > "Yofuri" > wrote in message
>> >>I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS
>> >>Miramar in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn
>> >>downwind and one panel separated. The only injury was superficial
>> >>glass cuts to a toddler in a house on the lip of a canyon when
>> >>wreckage shattered the patio door. Rick
>> > Thank you very much. Think that is the one pictured in the link?
>> Could you repeat the link? I missed it. Rick
>
> Sure A good poster over on s.m.n. gave me this link, "
> http://www.vmf235.com/f8_wingsfolded.jpg not F-4 but if I read the
> photo credit right is Marine. You have to careful with Google refs
> ---" Anyone know if this photo is real, and what outcome was?

That's not an A-7; it's an F-8. Sez so right in the link. Biggest
differences - F-8 has a variable incidence wing and a pointier nose.

Dave in San Diego

[Greasy Rider© @invalid.com]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:02:16 -0700, "a425couple"
> postulated :
>
>I have a old question, maybe someone can refute, or verify?
>
>I tend to mistrust 'sea-stories' w.o. cites. Sometimes I think
>they likely true, probably partly true, or unlikely.
>But some good ones stick in my mind, from all categories.


My friend Kit from the 50s provided some more remembrances regarding
folding wing take offs:

----------------------start--------------------

I recall VF-102 from our very own Air Wing 8, on board
FORRESTAL, during one of the many Med Cruises I endured,
taking off from Naples AERFER, and landing safely back at
the air strip in an F-8 Crusader. It did break one of the uplocks on
the wing, but they fixed it, and it made it back to the ship in a
couple of days.

VF-84 also had one out of Rota flying F-8s..

KIT

---------------------end---------------------

So it appears that there were more than one F-8 Crusaders attempting
flight with folded wings.

[[email protected]]

I read the USAF Safety TWX on an incident where a 57th FIS F4E ;aunched
out of Rekyavik with his wings unlocked. When the bird rotated the tips
went vertical and with the sudden shift of the now modified aero center
the bird nosed up steeply. The RIO made the appropriate comment while
the AC rolled the plane inverted to get the nose back down. At the
horizon he rolled right side up and still in burner found that at 300
the tips would lie flat. (Note that USAF F4Es do not have cockpit-
folding controls, - it's all done outside, on the ground, of course.)
They punched the tanks and dumped fuel and determined from a little
test flying that they could make an approach. I forgot the exact speed
but it was doable.
So they came in flat and fast, planted the bird on the runway, slowed
enough to pop the chute and stopped okay. The WingCo had the usual talk
with the crew. He posited that the attaboy canceled the aw **** and the
crew agreed.
(A little careless maybe but not stupid). The mishap occurred because
the bird had just been painted sea grey over the usual slime and
sewage; the wings being unlocked, the telltale red pins also became
grey, and no one noticed they were sticking up when the bird was towed
from the hanagr to teh flightline - or during preflight . . . This
happened sometime around 1972-1973 because I was stationed at Bitburg
AB Germany when I read the TWX report.
Walt BJ ret ftr plt

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I read the USAF Safety TWX on an incident where a 57th FIS F4E ;aunched
> out of Rekyavik with his wings unlocked. When the bird rotated the tips
> went vertical and with the sudden shift of the now modified aero center
> the bird nosed up steeply. The RIO made the appropriate comment while
> the AC rolled the plane inverted to get the nose back down. At the
> horizon he rolled right side up and still in burner found that at 300
> the tips would lie flat. (Note that USAF F4Es do not have cockpit-
> folding controls, - it's all done outside, on the ground, of course.)
>

As it was on all USAF F-4s. The F-4E dispensed with hydraulic wing folding.
The hydraulic wing folding controls on earlier USAF F-4s were located on a
panel in the left main wheel well inboard.

[Yofuri]

a425couple wrote:
> "Yofuri" > wrote in message
>
>>a425couple wrote:
>>
>>>"Yofuri" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>>I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS
>>>>Miramar in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn downwind
>>>>and one panel separated. The only injury was superficial glass cuts to
>>>>a toddler in a house on the lip of a canyon when wreckage shattered the
>>>>patio door. Rick
>>>
>>>Thank you very much. Think that is the one pictured in the link?
>>
>>Could you repeat the link? I missed it. Rick
>
>
> Sure A good poster over on s.m.n. gave me this link, "
> http://www.vmf235.com/f8_wingsfolded.jpg not F-4 but if I read the
> photo credit right is Marine. You have to careful with Google refs ---"
> Anyone know if this photo is real, and what outcome was?
>
>
That's a Marine F8. The one I knew of was a VA-25 A7E.

Rick

[[email protected]]

I have seen photos of both the 57FIS F-4E and an F-4N flying with their
wings folded. Both were said to have landed safely. FWIW, the wingfold
lock was actuated manually on the F-4E from a point under the fold hinge
using I believe a 1/2 inch drive speed handle or ratchet, no socket, so once
the 57 FIS jet was airborne there would be no way to lock the outer wing
panels down.
Scott Wilson
Phormer F-4C and F-4E Comm-Nav Avionics Specialist

[Greasy Rider© @invalid.com]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:02:16 -0700, "a425couple"
> postulated :
>
>I have a old question, maybe someone can refute, or verify?
>
>I tend to mistrust 'sea-stories' w.o. cites. Sometimes I think
>they likely true, probably partly true, or unlikely.
>But some good ones stick in my mind, from all categories.

Another Naval Aviator from the 80's time frame responded to my e-mail
question last evening.....

--------------------------start-------------------

....S-3A VIKING OFF THE NIMITZ IN THE MED IN 1982 HAD WINGS START
FOLDING ON TAKEOFF ! KILLED 3, ONE LIVED.

Scott

-------------------------end--------------------

[Phormer Phantom Phlyer]

Probably be able to reach down, lower and lock them while airborne.
Pilot and RIO pretty stupid in public tho if this is true.

What was the RIO doin' when the pilot wiped out the cockpit last time?

[Phormer Phantom Phlyer]

Remember the squadron for the F-4N?

Not many squadrons had this bird. VF-101 in KW, VF-154, VF-21 onboard
Coral-Maru..

[a425couple]

"Yofuri" > wrote in message
> I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS
> Miramar in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn downwind
> and one panel separated. The only injury was superficial glass cuts to
> a toddler in a house on the lip of a canyon when wreckage shattered the
> patio door. Rick

Excuse me, but on rereading today, now I am unsure of the
outcome you describe. Please clarify for this ex-grunt.
Did pilot eject and plane crash?
Or, did he land with one missing panel (panel hitting house)?

(and thanks for everyone helping out on this thread)

[John]

No, cuz the link is a picture of an F-8 Crusader . . . not an A-7
Corsair II. They look similar but the link is a Crusader. Look at the
radome and the profile of the vertical stabilizer and you will know
right away..

Blue skies

John

[Yofuri]

a425couple wrote:
> "Yofuri" > wrote in message
>
>>I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS
>>Miramar in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn downwind
>>and one panel separated. The only injury was superficial glass cuts to
>>a toddler in a house on the lip of a canyon when wreckage shattered the
>>patio door. Rick
>
>
> Excuse me, but on rereading today, now I am unsure of the
> outcome you describe. Please clarify for this ex-grunt.
> Did pilot eject and plane crash?
> Or, did he land with one missing panel (panel hitting house)?
>
> (and thanks for everyone helping out on this thread)
>
>
Outer wing panel broke off in flight; pilot ejected. Fuselage impacted
canyon wall, debris went over the lip of the canyon, shattering back
windows and patio door of a residence.

Rick

[W. D. Allen Sr.]

"...telltale red pins also became grey, and no one noticed...."

Reminds me of our loss of a VF-24 pilot and plane (North American FJ-3) off
the U. S. S. Shangri La in the East China Sea. Pilot had spread the wings
but did not completely LOCK the wings. The wing fold pins were seated
keeping the folded outboard sections in place, but the cockpit lock handle
was not completely seated in the detent. The pilot had NO aileron throw but
apparently did not know it. The plane went off the catapult, began a slow
left roll and went in abeam the ship. Happened on 23 December 1956. Always
hoped the Navy did not notify his wife and two little kids until after they
had enjoyed their Christmas.

WDA

end

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I read the USAF Safety TWX on an incident where a 57th FIS F4E ;aunched
> out of Rekyavik with his wings unlocked. When the bird rotated the tips
> went vertical and with the sudden shift of the now modified aero center
> the bird nosed up steeply. The RIO made the appropriate comment while
> the AC rolled the plane inverted to get the nose back down. At the
> horizon he rolled right side up and still in burner found that at 300
> the tips would lie flat. (Note that USAF F4Es do not have cockpit-
> folding controls, - it's all done outside, on the ground, of course.)
> They punched the tanks and dumped fuel and determined from a little
> test flying that they could make an approach. I forgot the exact speed
> but it was doable.
> So they came in flat and fast, planted the bird on the runway, slowed
> enough to pop the chute and stopped okay. The WingCo had the usual talk
> with the crew. He posited that the attaboy canceled the aw **** and the
> crew agreed.
> (A little careless maybe but not stupid). The mishap occurred because
> the bird had just been painted sea grey over the usual slime and
> sewage; the wings being unlocked, the telltale red pins also became
> grey, and no one noticed they were sticking up when the bird was towed
> from the hanagr to teh flightline - or during preflight . . . This
> happened sometime around 1972-1973 because I was stationed at Bitburg
> AB Germany when I read the TWX report.
> Walt BJ ret ftr plt
>

[[email protected]]

I posted a photo I scanned from one of my books of the F-4N airborne with
the wings folded, as well as the two photos of the 57FIS F-4E I found on the
web. You'll find them on alt.binaries.pictures.military
Scott Wilson

[Jim]

wrote:
> I read the USAF Safety TWX on an incident where a 57th FIS F4E ;aunched
> out of Rekyavik with his wings unlocked.

Rekjavik? Had he lost his way? Keflavik just around the bay.

[Ron]

Been some retouching to the image as well, sky has grain and then some
"smeary" areas.


"Yofuri" > wrote in message
...
> a425couple wrote:
>> "Yofuri" > wrote in message
>>
>>>a425couple wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Yofuri" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>>I can confirm a visiting A7E doing it out of the fuel pits at NAS
>>>>>Miramar in that era. He was doing fine until he tried to turn downwind
>>>>>and one panel separated. The only injury was superficial glass cuts to
>>>>>a toddler in a house on the lip of a canyon when wreckage shattered the
>>>>>patio door. Rick
>>>>
>>>>Thank you very much. Think that is the one pictured in the link?
>>>
>>>Could you repeat the link? I missed it. Rick
>>
>>
>> Sure A good poster over on s.m.n. gave me this link, "
>> http://www.vmf235.com/f8_wingsfolded.jpg not F-4 but if I read the
>> photo credit right is Marine. You have to careful with Google refs ---"
>> Anyone know if this photo is real, and what outcome was?
>>
>>
> That's a Marine F8. The one I knew of was a VA-25 A7E.
>
> Rick

[John Carrier]

"John" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> No, cuz the link is a picture of an F-8 Crusader . . . not an A-7
> Corsair II. They look similar but the link is a Crusader. Look at the
> radome and the profile of the vertical stabilizer and you will know
> right away..

It always irritates me when folks consider an A-7 to be similar to an F-8.
That's like saying a burro is similar to a thoroughbred.

R / John

[[email protected]]

Sorry. Senior moment, to which I am entitled by seniority. Kef it was.
Walt BJ

[Jim C]

Don't be too sure your senior! I just happened to be there!

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Sorry. Senior moment, to which I am entitled by seniority. Kef it was.
> Walt BJ
>

[Ken Duffey]

John Carrier wrote:
> "John" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>No, cuz the link is a picture of an F-8 Crusader . . . not an A-7
>>Corsair II. They look similar but the link is a Crusader. Look at the
>>radome and the profile of the vertical stabilizer and you will know
>>right away..
>
>
> It always irritates me when folks consider an A-7 to be similar to an F-8.
> That's like saying a burro is similar to a thoroughbred.
>
> R / John
>
>

Our model club once had a large model display of the USS Enterprise
(CVN-65) depicting the air wing circa 1976.

I had a model of an A-7 - on the cat, deflector up - complete with
flashing lights - awesome little model, even if I do say so myself.....

We took the model display to lots of shows - it always drew a crowd
seeing a 16-foot long carrier complete with air wing on the deck.

We even featured on a UK TV kids show (Blue Peter if you ask).

Anyway, this guy comes up to me at the show, admires the the whole
display - F-14's, A-6's, A-7's, EA-6's S-61's, E-2's, even a 'visiting'
ERA-3, deck crew, tractors - the works, etc - and then tells me I've got
the A-7 wrong !!

I ask what is wrong - and he says I haven't modelled the wings in the
raised position!!

I point out that it is an A-7 - not an F-8 - but he still insists that
the A-7 has the same variable incidence wing as the F-8.

I bit my tongue and muttered 'whatever'............. and walked away.

Bloody punters !!!

Ken

[Red Rider]

From the dim recesses of my mind I recall that there was one F-8 that took
off from San Clemente, one evening (night carrier quals about '62?????) with
the winds folded, He managed to turn around and landed safely, and then went
on out to the ship. Don't remember where he changed his flight suit. Can't
recall the name either but I seem to remember that he was well known, at
least later as Sq CO, or maybe CAG.

The F-8 wing folded wing incident in Italy was that Sigonella? or Naples?
Maybe off a carrier in/near Naples Bay? I remember the incident but for some
reason I connect it with Naples.

I have also heard of other folded wing Crusader incidents. I can't recall
the details of them but they included stories of two French F-8N's. I think
that they all flew. As far as wing incidence, left up/down or stuck, that
barely merited a mention.

There have been a lot of strange things in Naval Aviation over the years.
Some almost defy belief, two of my all time favorites are.

In 1956 Tom Attridge, in an F11F-1 became the first man to shoot himself
down. He did survive.

A pilot launched off a carrier near Pt Loma in his F7U, and the bridle got
stuck to the landing gear. He couldn't get the gear all the way up or down,
so they told him to point the nose out over the Pacific and eject onto the
field at NAS North Island. The theory being that the Cutlass would fly out
to sea and crash there. He ejected at about 5000' and landed (safely) but
the Cutlass refused to come down. It circled and circled and circled,
getting lower each time around. It almost hit the Hotel Del Coronado and
then landed on the beach, just across from LFTC (amphib and now SEAL
training base). Of course the gear and underside of the aircraft was
damaged, but the Cutlass was hauled of and was rebuilt to fly again.

[Greasy Rider© @invalid.com]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:25:37 GMT, "Red Rider" >
postulated :

> In 1956 Tom Attridge, in an F11F-1 became the first man to shoot himself
>down. He did survive.

We were in Gitmo for gunnery when that happened. They gathered us all
together and said that the incident was secret and our mail would be
censored to keep the rest of the world from discovering this. The
second day one of the metalsmiths received a letter at mail call. In
it was a clipping from his wife. The episode was in the Norfolk
newspaper. So much for secrecy.

On that same cruise a mysterious gash appeared in front of the port
intake of an F11F. It was between the two gun ports yet nothing was
inhaled by the engine. BuAer nor Grumman never did figure that one
out.

[Guy Alcala]

Red Rider wrote:

> From the dim recesses of my mind I recall that there was one F-8 that took
> off from San Clemente, one evening (night carrier quals about '62?????) with
> the winds folded, He managed to turn around and landed safely, and then went
> on out to the ship. Don't remember where he changed his flight suit. Can't
> recall the name either but I seem to remember that he was well known, at
> least later as Sq CO, or maybe CAG.
>
> The F-8 wing folded wing incident in Italy was that Sigonella? or Naples?
> Maybe off a carrier in/near Naples Bay? I remember the incident but for some
> reason I connect it with Naples.
>
> I have also heard of other folded wing Crusader incidents. I can't recall
> the details of them but they included stories of two French F-8N's. I think
> that they all flew. As far as wing incidence, left up/down or stuck, that
> barely merited a mention.

Barrett Tilman mentions seven Crusader wings-folded takeoffs (out of 12, the
first involving an AD out of NAS Charlestown, RI in 1949, pilot jumped) in"Mig
Master", occurring between 1960 and 1969, and all made successful landings. All
but one were at night, and usually involved a hot refueling. The daytime
incident involved a VF-11 a/c flown by Lt. Jack Barnes out of Capodichino
airport near Naples, on 2 August 1960. He was doing 175 knots on final. Others
were:

31 March 1964, Lt. Cdr. Thomas Hudner (MoH in Korea flying the F4U), San
Clemente, Ca. Hudner pushed negative G and got first one and then the other tip
to drop into place and lock, then lowered the wing and landed.

August 1966, marine major of VMF(AW)-235, Danang, folded his wings to clear
another a/c while taxiing, then took off loaded with 1,000 lb. of bombs and six
Zunis. Dumped his ordnance, dropped his hook, made a fast approach and caught
the arrester gear. It was really not his night, because he'd neglected to lower
his landing gear.

About 10 months later, another marine, same outfit and location, took off with 2
tons of bombs and six Zunis, which were disposed of and recovery made at 160+
knots on final.

1966 and 1967, Miramar, VF-191 and VF-53. No other info.

January 1969, location unstated, pilot had just rotated when controller informed
him of situation, he chopped the power, dropped the hook and arrested.

The French could have had others, but the book was published in 1980 so they may
have occurred later.

Guy

[Red Rider]

"Guy Alcala" > wrote in message
. ..
> Red Rider wrote:
>
> > From the dim recesses of my mind I recall that there was one F-8 that
took
> > off from San Clemente, one evening (night carrier quals about '62?????)
with
> > the winds folded, He managed to turn around and landed safely, and then
went
> > on out to the ship. Don't remember where he changed his flight suit.
Can't
> > recall the name either but I seem to remember that he was well known, at
> > least later as Sq CO, or maybe CAG.
> >
> > The F-8 wing folded wing incident in Italy was that Sigonella? or
Naples?
> > Maybe off a carrier in/near Naples Bay? I remember the incident but for
some
> > reason I connect it with Naples.
> >
> > I have also heard of other folded wing Crusader incidents. I can't
recall
> > the details of them but they included stories of two French F-8N's. I
think
> > that they all flew. As far as wing incidence, left up/down or stuck,
that
> > barely merited a mention.
>
> Barrett Tilman mentions seven Crusader wings-folded takeoffs (out of 12,
the
> first involving an AD out of NAS Charlestown, RI in 1949, pilot jumped)
in"Mig
> Master", occurring between 1960 and 1969, and all made successful
landings. All
> but one were at night, and usually involved a hot refueling. The daytime
> incident involved a VF-11 a/c flown by Lt. Jack Barnes out of Capodichino
> airport near Naples, on 2 August 1960. He was doing 175 knots on final.
Others
> were:
>
> 31 March 1964, Lt. Cdr. Thomas Hudner (MoH in Korea flying the F4U), San
> Clemente, Ca. Hudner pushed negative G and got first one and then the
other tip
> to drop into place and lock, then lowered the wing and landed.
>
> August 1966, marine major of VMF(AW)-235, Danang, folded his wings to
clear
> another a/c while taxiing, then took off loaded with 1,000 lb. of bombs
and six
> Zunis. Dumped his ordnance, dropped his hook, made a fast approach and
caught
> the arrester gear. It was really not his night, because he'd neglected to
lower
> his landing gear.
>
> About 10 months later, another marine, same outfit and location, took off
with 2
> tons of bombs and six Zunis, which were disposed of and recovery made at
160+
> knots on final.
>
> 1966 and 1967, Miramar, VF-191 and VF-53. No other info.
>
> January 1969, location unstated, pilot had just rotated when controller
informed
> him of situation, he chopped the power, dropped the hook and arrested.
>
> The French could have had others, but the book was published in 1980 so
they may
> have occurred later.
>
> Guy

Guy, thanks for doing the research. At leaast I was about ½ right on the San
Clemente and Naples incidents. Proves I am not completely senile, YET!
<grin>

Red

[Guy Alcala]

Red Rider wrote:

<snip>

> Guy, thanks for doing the research. At leaast I was about ½ right on the San
> Clemente and Naples incidents. Proves I am not completely senile, YET!
> <grin>
>
> Red

You're welcome.

Guy