Applebay alternative nose release

[F.L. Whiteley]

Any comments pro or con about the Appleboy nose release?

Reportedly there are some PIK's, ASW's, LS's and Zuni's out there with them.

Had the same request on gliderforum.com for a few days. A few views, but no
comments. Perhaps someone here that I haven't already had an exchange
with?

TIA,

Frank

[[email protected]]

F.L. Whiteley wrote:
> Any comments pro or con about the Appleboy nose release?
>
> Reportedly there are some PIK's, ASW's, LS's and Zuni's out there
with them.
>
> Had the same request on gliderforum.com for a few days. A few views,
but no
> comments. Perhaps someone here that I haven't already had an
exchange
> with?
>
> TIA,
>
> Frank

There is one on my ASW 20. I have not used it to many times but it
seems
to work fine. It is a real pain to open it for the hook-up. Once it
releases and retracts there is nothing to grab a hold of to extend it.
A pocket knife or small screwdriver blade is needed to pull it out of
the fuselage far enough that you can open it.

Craig-

[Wayne Paul]

Is the Applebay hook similar to the Schreder design?
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Schreder/Soaring_July_1976_Page_29.JPG

> wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> F.L. Whiteley wrote:
> > Any comments pro or con about the Appleboy nose release?
> >
> > Reportedly there are some PIK's, ASW's, LS's and Zuni's out there
> with them.
> >
> > Had the same request on gliderforum.com for a few days. A few views,
> but no
> > comments. Perhaps someone here that I haven't already had an
> exchange
> > with?
> >
> > TIA,
> >
> > Frank
>
> There is one on my ASW 20. I have not used it to many times but it
> seems
> to work fine. It is a real pain to open it for the hook-up. Once it
> releases and retracts there is nothing to grab a hold of to extend it.
> A pocket knife or small screwdriver blade is needed to pull it out of
> the fuselage far enough that you can open it.
>
> Craig-
>

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, Wayne Paul wrote:

> Is the Applebay hook similar to the Schreder design?

I think it's similar but not identical. George has said that he's not
familiar with the Schreder hook design. My memory of hooking up Z2 at
Sky Sailing (we're talking 1979 or so) is that the Applebay hook is
similar on the outside to the Schreder -455 hook, but I have no clue
what's on the inside.

By the way, one of the Schreder apprentices (I can't remember which,
though it might have been Australian Ross Nolan) once told me that Dick
saw the -455 hook in a dream, and drew all its parts out that
afternoon. That would have been between about 1958 and 1962. Dick used
that exact hook design in all subsequent HP designs through about the
HP-20 in 1984 or so. About five years ago I sold one of the SparrowHawk
guys a set of drawings for the -455 hook. They seem to have used that
same basic design, though resized and optimized for their lighter
weights and lower loadings.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

[F.L. Whiteley]

George admits that it's 'borrowed' from the Schreder design.

Frank


Wayne Paul wrote:

> Is the Applebay hook similar to the Schreder design?
> http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Schreder/Soaring_July_1976_Page_29.JPG
>
> > wrote in message
> ps.com...
>>
>> F.L. Whiteley wrote:
>> > Any comments pro or con about the Appleboy nose release?
>> >
>> > Reportedly there are some PIK's, ASW's, LS's and Zuni's out there
>> with them.
>> >
>> > Had the same request on gliderforum.com for a few days. A few views,
>> but no
>> > comments. Perhaps someone here that I haven't already had an
>> exchange
>> > with?
>> >
>> > TIA,
>> >
>> > Frank
>>
>> There is one on my ASW 20. I have not used it to many times but it
>> seems
>> to work fine. It is a real pain to open it for the hook-up. Once it
>> releases and retracts there is nothing to grab a hold of to extend it.
>> A pocket knife or small screwdriver blade is needed to pull it out of
>> the fuselage far enough that you can open it.
>>
>> Craig-
>>

[[email protected]]

Hi Craig,

I had an HP-14 and presently have a Zuni. Their hooks were
functionally indentical, though of mildly differing geometry.

Both ships' hooks could be opened, latched into place and connected to
a ring without resort to an opening tool.

Rather than *pulling* the hook open, try PUSHing it open from the aft
end. Once the plate with the cutout for the ring comes into view, you
can continue rotating that plate until it latches. (It's easier to
see/do than describe or visualize.)

Those times I've forgotten to open the hook prior to pulling into place
for hookup and am in the cockpit ready to go only to see the puzzled
face of the hookup person pop back up, I've merely (as above) described
how to get the hook started, told them there's nothing I can do from
the cockpit to help them, and seconds later I can hear the hook click
into it's 'open' position. Sometimes they also need verbal assistance
making the actual connection...but you probably already know how to do
that.

Regards,
Bob Whelan

[Les Walker]

I had George install a Zuni in my ASW19 just last year.
I wanted to have both a CG and a nose hook. I really
wasn't all that comfortable with just a CG release
since I was 'raised' on a nose hook and just didn't
like the feel of the CG hook. The very first time I
used the Zuni I had an inadvertent release at about
900-1000 feet AGL. I had let the glider get a little
higher than it should have been, but I clearly remember
being able to see the tow plane. I would have released
in a hurry had I lost sight of it. Turns out the tension
spring (on mine) is just too weak, and it will release
with very little back pressure. I found this to be
reason enough not to use it again until it is replaced
with a much stronger spring. Unfortunately it will
have to wait until I make the 1000 mi trek to Moriarty
one day. Replacement of the spring requires two small
holes to be cut into the fuse, opposite the ends of
the spring in order to unscrew the retaining bolt and
nut. I'm not comfortable doing it myself. Now all I
use the nose hook for is to be pulled over to the grid.

[Steve Leonard]

Hi Frank,

Didn't see the request on gliderforum.com. Where was it? What are you
thinking of putting one in?

There are lots of similarities between the Schreder hook and Applebay's
version. George made his so that it will auto-release if the pull is
too much "down". Trying to protect the towpilot.

Les, I suspect the issue is not so much the spring, but is it possible
that when you got high, you leveled off for a moment, and got slack in
the rope? The weight and drag of the loop may have caused the release?

A bit about the release.

There are two springs in the design. A torsion spring to close the
release, and a tension spring to hold the locking arm in position.
There is not any slope on the mating faces of the locking arm and the
forward, load carrying part of the hook, so it should not have released
unless there was a load to pull the rope down the slot, or the release
got tripped by the locking arm being pulled.

As for adjustments, remember, there are two ends to a spring. The
other end should be easily accessable at the top of the locking arm.
You can shorten this spring to increase the tension holding the locking
arm in place.

Craig, as Bob said, try pushing in at the back of the release. There
is plenty of room inside the nose for you to push it most of the way
into position from the back end of the release.

There is one improvement I think can be made to the design. It will be
much easier for the line crew to hook up if a mechanical stop is
installed that prevents the forward part of the hook from rotating aft
as you push the cover plate back to insert the tow ring. If you look
at the geometry, of the hook, you will see what I am talking about.
This stop can take several forms. The simplest is a change to the
shape of the forward part of the hook.

There is also one installed on a Mosquito at my field. My opinion is
they work just fine. I have never had any troubles with mine and I
have about 1100 hours in my Zuni and probably 300+ flights.

Steve Leonard
Zuni 2, Serial 28

[F.L. Whiteley]

Les Walker wrote:

> I had George install a Zuni in my ASW19 just last year.
> I wanted to have both a CG and a nose hook. I really
> wasn't all that comfortable with just a CG release
> since I was 'raised' on a nose hook and just didn't
> like the feel of the CG hook. The very first time I
> used the Zuni I had an inadvertent release at about
> 900-1000 feet AGL. I had let the glider get a little
> higher than it should have been, but I clearly remember
> being able to see the tow plane. I would have released
> in a hurry had I lost sight of it. Turns out the tension
> spring (on mine) is just too weak, and it will release
> with very little back pressure. I found this to be
> reason enough not to use it again until it is replaced
> with a much stronger spring. Unfortunately it will
> have to wait until I make the 1000 mi trek to Moriarty
> one day. Replacement of the spring requires two small
> holes to be cut into the fuse, opposite the ends of
> the spring in order to unscrew the retaining bolt and
> nut. I'm not comfortable doing it myself. Now all I
> use the nose hook for is to be pulled over to the grid.

Les,

Could you elaborate a bit more? What type of ring in use? Tow rope, that
is, with weak or without weak link at glider end, or whiffle ball or some
other rope protection?

Thanks,

Frank

[F.L. Whiteley]

Steve Leonard wrote:

> Hi Frank,
>
> Didn't see the request on gliderforum.com. Where was it? What are you
> thinking of putting one in?
>
> There are lots of similarities between the Schreder hook and Applebay's
> version. George made his so that it will auto-release if the pull is
> too much "down". Trying to protect the towpilot.
>
> Les, I suspect the issue is not so much the spring, but is it possible
> that when you got high, you leveled off for a moment, and got slack in
> the rope? The weight and drag of the loop may have caused the release?
>
> A bit about the release.
>
> There are two springs in the design. A torsion spring to close the
> release, and a tension spring to hold the locking arm in position.
> There is not any slope on the mating faces of the locking arm and the
> forward, load carrying part of the hook, so it should not have released
> unless there was a load to pull the rope down the slot, or the release
> got tripped by the locking arm being pulled.
>
> As for adjustments, remember, there are two ends to a spring. The
> other end should be easily accessable at the top of the locking arm.
> You can shorten this spring to increase the tension holding the locking
> arm in place.
>
> Craig, as Bob said, try pushing in at the back of the release. There
> is plenty of room inside the nose for you to push it most of the way
> into position from the back end of the release.
>
> There is one improvement I think can be made to the design. It will be
> much easier for the line crew to hook up if a mechanical stop is
> installed that prevents the forward part of the hook from rotating aft
> as you push the cover plate back to insert the tow ring. If you look
> at the geometry, of the hook, you will see what I am talking about.
> This stop can take several forms. The simplest is a change to the
> shape of the forward part of the hook.
>
> There is also one installed on a Mosquito at my field. My opinion is
> they work just fine. I have never had any troubles with mine and I
> have about 1100 hours in my Zuni and probably 300+ flights.
>
> Steve Leonard
> Zuni 2, Serial 28

Steve,

Just looking at options. It's under general discussion on gliderforum.com.
Many lookers, no comments.

Any chance that the shape of a particular hull and mounting position might
make the attach angle slightly different, leaving one type a bit more
susceptible than another? Bob Whelan had two back releases to report, but
admits to having slack lines when they happened. Stronger springs
shouldn't change the desired release if high on tow. I'll ask if stronger
springs are now standard.

Thanks,

Frank Whiteley