Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

[2G]

He flew with two other paragliders last Saturday and hasn't been heard from since:
https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/local-nevada/infrared-tech-used-in-hunt-for-paraglider-pilot-missing-in-nevada-2104357/

This is very unforgiving country to be flying over. You can walk for an entire day and not see another human being. There is no water or shelter to get you by. It requires the utmost preparation before venturing out into it, communication being at the top of the list. I have been flying gliders over this country for over 10 years and have been involved in retrieving glider pilots who have landed out in this country. Take my word for it: you MUST not underestimate how brutal this terrain is. These paraglider pilots weren't fully prepared for the task. After Oroc/Johnston (which is it?) went missing there was a significant delay in contacting the sheriff's office to begin a search - they had to be instructed to do so by another glider pilot in Ely. They had no aviation radios to communicate with other aircraft. There was limited communication between the paraglider pilots themselves, using short range consumer radios. It is unlikely that Oroc/Johnston survived the crash he was certainly involved in.

[[email protected]]

> It is unlikely that Oroc/Johnston survived the crash he was certainly involved >in.

2G- You consistently post unsubstantiated certainties. Unless you're some sort of clairvoyant, I can't find where in the article it says this man crashed and did not survive. At this point, he's missing and S&R is still searching. This penchant you have of inventing stuff makes all your other posts circumspect, even though some may have real value.

[Chris Behm]

On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 6:37:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > It is unlikely that Oroc/Johnston survived the crash he was certainly involved >in.
> 2G- You consistently post unsubstantiated certainties. Unless you're some sort of clairvoyant, I can't find where in the article it says this man crashed and did not survive. At this point, he's missing and S&R is still searching. This penchant you have of inventing stuff makes all your other posts circumspect, even though some may have real value.


Seems like a "SPOT" would be a good investment for these serious XC paraglider guys.

R,
Chris

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 10:33:29 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
> On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 6:37:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > It is unlikely that Oroc/Johnston survived the crash he was certainly involved >in.
> > 2G- You consistently post unsubstantiated certainties. Unless you're some sort of clairvoyant, I can't find where in the article it says this man crashed and did not survive. At this point, he's missing and S&R is still searching. This penchant you have of inventing stuff makes all your other posts circumspect, even though some may have real value.
> Seems like a "SPOT" would be a good investment for these serious XC paraglider guys.
>
> R,
> Chris
This article has more information, including that the paraglider pilot was carrying a Garmin Inreach tracker which stopped transmitting:
https://xcmag.com/news/james-kiwi-johnston-missing-in-nevada/

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 10:37:15 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 10:33:29 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
> > On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 6:37:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > It is unlikely that Oroc/Johnston survived the crash he was certainly involved >in.
> > > 2G- You consistently post unsubstantiated certainties. Unless you're some sort of clairvoyant, I can't find where in the article it says this man crashed and did not survive. At this point, he's missing and S&R is still searching. This penchant you have of inventing stuff makes all your other posts circumspect, even though some may have real value.
> > Seems like a "SPOT" would be a good investment for these serious XC paraglider guys.
> >
> > R,
> > Chris
> This article has more information, including that the paraglider pilot was carrying a Garmin Inreach tracker which stopped transmitting:
> https://xcmag.com/news/james-kiwi-johnston-missing-in-nevada/

Has the ransomware been paid up todate?

[Paul Agnew]

Day 4 Report - volunteers are scrutinizing high-res satellite photos in the search for any sign of his parachute or emergency chute.

https://xcmag.com/news/kiwi-johnston-search-continues-on-day-4/

[2G]

On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 6:37:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > It is unlikely that Oroc/Johnston survived the crash he was certainly involved >in.
> 2G- You consistently post unsubstantiated certainties. Unless you're some sort of clairvoyant, I can't find where in the article it says this man crashed and did not survive. At this point, he's missing and S&R is still searching. This penchant you have of inventing stuff makes all your other posts circumspect, even though some may have real value.

You need to take a course in comprehensive reading; I wrote that it is UNLIKELY that he survived, not a CERTAINTY.

Tom

[BobW]

On 8/28/2020 3:55 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 6:37:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>>> It is unlikely that Oroc/Johnston survived the crash he was certainly
>>> involved >in.
>> 2G- You consistently post unsubstantiated certainties. Unless you're some
>> sort of clairvoyant, I can't find where in the article it says this man
>> crashed and did not survive. At this point, he's missing and S&R is still
>> searching. This penchant you have of inventing stuff makes all your other
>> posts circumspect, even though some may have real value.
>
> You need to take a course in comprehensive reading; I wrote that it is
> UNLIKELY that he survived, not a CERTAINTY.
>
> Tom

Rhetorical comment: "Geez, Tom. Short on chill pills? Do you *enjoy* coming
across as obtuse?"

Hopefully this ends well...though - I infer - with each day it seems less
likely. Infer? Just me, I guess...

cf: "...the crash he was certainly involved in." Certainly?

Seems to me, the situation is serious enough without indulging in "terminal
public speculation." Best wishes for Mr. Johnston, his family, and friends.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[2G]

On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 4:06:57 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
> On 8/28/2020 3:55 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 6:37:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> >>> It is unlikely that Oroc/Johnston survived the crash he was certainly
> >>> involved >in.
> >> 2G- You consistently post unsubstantiated certainties. Unless you're some
> >> sort of clairvoyant, I can't find where in the article it says this man
> >> crashed and did not survive. At this point, he's missing and S&R is still
> >> searching. This penchant you have of inventing stuff makes all your other
> >> posts circumspect, even though some may have real value.
> >
> > You need to take a course in comprehensive reading; I wrote that it is
> > UNLIKELY that he survived, not a CERTAINTY.
> >
> > Tom
> Rhetorical comment: "Geez, Tom. Short on chill pills? Do you *enjoy* coming
> across as obtuse?"
>
> Hopefully this ends well...though - I infer - with each day it seems less
> likely. Infer? Just me, I guess...
>
> cf: "...the crash he was certainly involved in." Certainly?
>
> Seems to me, the situation is serious enough without indulging in "terminal
> public speculation." Best wishes for Mr. Johnston, his family, and friends.
>
> Bob W.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com

Gee Bob, so you THINK the guy landed uneventfully and DIDN'T crash? Maybe YOU need a chill pill. His last reported position by his InReach was at 14,000 ft with NO subsequent fixes. In other words, device was damaged beyond use. Sounds like a crash to me.

[George Haeh]

The battery may have run out without his noticing and he could have flown for a considerable time after.

[glidergeek]

Rec.Avation.Speculation

[2G]

On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 7:27:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> The battery may have run out without his noticing and he could have flown for a considerable time after.
Yeah, the battery went dead on BOTH his InReach and his radio at the same time. The guy has been missing for six days in the desert w/o water. Maybe he get kidnapped by Martians...

[BobW]

On 8/28/2020 6:43 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 4:06:57 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
>> On 8/28/2020 3:55 PM, 2G wrote:
>>> On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 6:37:52 AM UTC-7,
>>> wrote:
<Snip...>
>> Rhetorical comment: "Geez, Tom. Short on chill pills? Do you *enjoy*
>> coming across as obtuse?"
>>
>> Hopefully this ends well...though - I infer - with each day it seems
>> less likely. Infer? Just me, I guess...
>>
>> cf: "...the crash he was certainly involved in." Certainly?
>>
>> Seems to me, the situation is serious enough without indulging in
>> "terminal public speculation." Best wishes for Mr. Johnston, his family,
>> and friends.
>>
>> Bob W.
>>
>
> Gee Bob, so you THINK the guy landed uneventfully and DIDN'T crash? Maybe
> YOU need a chill pill. His last reported position by his InReach was at
> 14,000 ft with NO subsequent fixes. In other words, device was damaged
> beyond use. Sounds like a crash to me.
>

Keep digging that hole, Tom. Nowhere did I state what I think may or may not
have happened. I'll simply note here - my last post on this unfortunate topic
- you're doing well at justifying your initial speculation by now bringing in
subsequent info (apparently) unknown at the time of that initial post (to you,
so I infer, or you would have mentioned it, not leaving it to another poster
to do so). I'm reminded of my school bus driving days when reasoning with
unruly kids.

Bob W.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[2G]

On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 7:08:26 AM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
> On 8/28/2020 6:43 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 4:06:57 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
> >> On 8/28/2020 3:55 PM, 2G wrote:
> >>> On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 6:37:52 AM UTC-7,
> >>> wrote:
> <Snip...>
> >> Rhetorical comment: "Geez, Tom. Short on chill pills? Do you *enjoy*
> >> coming across as obtuse?"
> >>
> >> Hopefully this ends well...though - I infer - with each day it seems
> >> less likely. Infer? Just me, I guess...
> >>
> >> cf: "...the crash he was certainly involved in." Certainly?
> >>
> >> Seems to me, the situation is serious enough without indulging in
> >> "terminal public speculation." Best wishes for Mr. Johnston, his family,
> >> and friends.
> >>
> >> Bob W.
> >>
> >
> > Gee Bob, so you THINK the guy landed uneventfully and DIDN'T crash? Maybe
> > YOU need a chill pill. His last reported position by his InReach was at
> > 14,000 ft with NO subsequent fixes. In other words, device was damaged
> > beyond use. Sounds like a crash to me.
> >
> Keep digging that hole, Tom. Nowhere did I state what I think may or may not
> have happened. I'll simply note here - my last post on this unfortunate topic
> - you're doing well at justifying your initial speculation by now bringing in
> subsequent info (apparently) unknown at the time of that initial post (to you,
> so I infer, or you would have mentioned it, not leaving it to another poster
> to do so). I'm reminded of my school bus driving days when reasoning with
> unruly kids.
> Bob W.
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com

No, that is absolutely FALSE - I knew that and MORE that I didn't post that I got from the Ely glider pilot who talked to one of the paraglider pilots.. How do you think I knew they weren't carrying aviation radios? This guy did not initially contact the Sheriff's office and had to be strongly encouraged to do so by my friend. Then, there was a 4 hour delay as two sheriff departments disputed which had jurisdictional authority. On top of all of that, the paraglider pilot is an AIRLINE PILOT!

The bottom line here is that eastern Nevada is a very unsuitable place to fly the most fragile of aircraft, paragliders. And being unprepared for the inevitable consequences can be fatal. I don't apologize for being blunt if it may save someone else's life.

Tom

[BG[_4_]]

On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 9:15:35 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 7:27:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > The battery may have run out without his noticing and he could have flown for a considerable time after.
> Yeah, the battery went dead on BOTH his InReach and his radio at the same time. The guy has been missing for six days in the desert w/o water. Maybe he get kidnapped by Martians...
We can all see his last InReach report ended at 14500 ft , but how do we know his radio quit at the same time?
BG

[2G]

On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 11:50:32 AM UTC-7, BG wrote:
> On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 9:15:35 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 7:27:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > The battery may have run out without his noticing and he could have flown for a considerable time after.
> > Yeah, the battery went dead on BOTH his InReach and his radio at the same time. The guy has been missing for six days in the desert w/o water. Maybe he get kidnapped by Martians...
> We can all see his last InReach report ended at 14500 ft , but how do we know his radio quit at the same time?
> BG
The radios they were using were consumer-grade 2-way radios of limited range (about 2 miles). At some point in their flight they couldn't contact Johnston/Oroc. They tried to contact Oroc with these radios on search aircraft unsuccessfully. His last fix near Ninemile Peak isn't that far from a farm with two crop circles that presumably had water (about 6 miles), and they have searched this area unsuccessfully with a FLIR-equipped helicopter (https://pvtimes.com/news/rescue-teams-searching-for-missing-paraglider-88636/). So far, there has been no evidence of a discarded paraglider or emergency chute canopy. And now it has been 6 days with no sighting. People have survived longer periods, but they had access to water. It looks pretty grim.

Tom

[Waveguru]

"The “leading theory� for rescuers is that the Garmin InReach was in freefall when it sent its last trackpoint. Its groundspeed was only 2.4mph, which is “too slow for thermalling or reserve drift,� given the wind."

https://xcmag.com/news/james-kiwi-johnston-missing-in-nevada/

official search suspended

https://xcmag.com/news/kiwi-johnston-official-search-suspended/

Boggs

[2G]

On Monday, August 31, 2020 at 7:19:08 PM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> "The “leading theory� for rescuers is that the Garmin InReach was in freefall when it sent its last trackpoint. Its groundspeed was only 2.4mph, which is “too slow for thermalling or reserve drift,� given the wind."
>
> https://xcmag.com/news/james-kiwi-johnston-missing-in-nevada/
>
> official search suspended
>
> https://xcmag.com/news/kiwi-johnston-official-search-suspended/
>
> Boggs

The idea that Johnston "dropped" his InReach is, at best, very wishful thinking. More likely was it was a valid fix and he had reversed direction into the headwind. He traveled some 50 miles in 3 hours; how far could he go in the 10 min between fixes? A mile?
Finding these bodies out in the vast areas of Nevada is daunting. He had an InReach, which puts him in the minority of most of these idiots, yet they still couldn't find his body. Without the InReach fix they would have just thrown up their hands and given up.

[[email protected]]

The end of InReach fixes may be unrelated to his actual accident. Complexity is a regular feature of accidents. The assumption that the end of transmissions is the same event as his accident may be why the search has failed. He may have flown a long way toward Wendover or wherever the conditions looked good without a working tracker.

Nevada is not unusually rugged. The search area images show typical western Basin and Range terrain. If he was in a vertical decent/freefall at the last fix, then the search area would be tiny, and he would have been found right away.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
Also the safety record of “these idiots� as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles� I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies. And most of them fly with trackers.
Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.

Ramy

[2G]

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 10:22:05 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
> Also the safety record of “these idiots� as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles� I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies.. And most of them fly with trackers.
> Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.
>
> Ramy

The authorities put in over 4,000 hours of time looking for this guy w/o success. That's TWO MAN YEARS (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/nevada/articles/2020-08-31/nevada-search-suspended-for-missing-new-zealand-paraglider). There were cu-nims in the area the day he flew, unsuitable conditions for paragliders in my opinion. This is from Wikipedia (not me):
Due to the paramotor's [same aerodynamics as a paraglider] slow forward speed and nature of a soft wing, it is not safe in high winds, turbulence, or intense thermal activity.
And:
Over the years 1994−2010, an average of seven in every 10,000 active paraglider pilots have been fatally injured

The range of the radios was estimated by his friend who flew with him that day. Ham radios are not aviation radios, so you can't communicate with other aircraft, particularly on 121.5. As you well know, 20 miles in that country can just make you that much more lost - and that's assuming they land w/o injury. I don't know how much water he was carrying, but it certainly wasn't enough for a full day (1 gallon). The guy covered about 54 miles in 3 hours, or averaged about 18 mph.

This is Oroc/Johnston's own account of looking for another missing paraglider pilot (who did survive):
https://xcmag.com/news/the-last-flight-of-xavier-murillo-by-james-kiwi-johnston/
So, he knew exactly how hard it is to find these guys. And his buddies waited a FULL DAY to report them missing, and, then, ONLY at the urging of an Ely glider pilot - not that it made much difference in the end.

I have done actual retrieves of fellow glider pilots in this terrain, and know how really bad it is. You may not want to judge these guys, but I am trying to save lives here. As such, I make NO apologies for these criticisms. You can do as YOU wish!

[[email protected]]

I won't fly in the desert with less than two and a half gallons of water and enough material to make and seed 10 solar stills. I spent 8 years flying in the desert and mountains. Both will kill you if you do not respect them.

[Dan Marotta]

Dammit Tom, you've got to stop clouding speculation with facts!

On 9/1/2020 6:30 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 10:22:05 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
>> Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
>> Also the safety record of “these idiots� as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles� I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies. And most of them fly with trackers.
>> Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.
>>
>> Ramy
> The authorities put in over 4,000 hours of time looking for this guy w/o success. That's TWO MAN YEARS (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/nevada/articles/2020-08-31/nevada-search-suspended-for-missing-new-zealand-paraglider). There were cu-nims in the area the day he flew, unsuitable conditions for paragliders in my opinion. This is from Wikipedia (not me):
> Due to the paramotor's [same aerodynamics as a paraglider] slow forward speed and nature of a soft wing, it is not safe in high winds, turbulence, or intense thermal activity.
> And:
> Over the years 1994−2010, an average of seven in every 10,000 active paraglider pilots have been fatally injured
>
> The range of the radios was estimated by his friend who flew with him that day. Ham radios are not aviation radios, so you can't communicate with other aircraft, particularly on 121.5. As you well know, 20 miles in that country can just make you that much more lost - and that's assuming they land w/o injury. I don't know how much water he was carrying, but it certainly wasn't enough for a full day (1 gallon). The guy covered about 54 miles in 3 hours, or averaged about 18 mph.
>
> This is Oroc/Johnston's own account of looking for another missing paraglider pilot (who did survive):
> https://xcmag.com/news/the-last-flight-of-xavier-murillo-by-james-kiwi-johnston/
> So, he knew exactly how hard it is to find these guys. And his buddies waited a FULL DAY to report them missing, and, then, ONLY at the urging of an Ely glider pilot - not that it made much difference in the end.
>
> I have done actual retrieves of fellow glider pilots in this terrain, and know how really bad it is. You may not want to judge these guys, but I am trying to save lives here. As such, I make NO apologies for these criticisms. You can do as YOU wish!
>

--
Dan, 5J

[andy l]

I don't know the area at all (and I'm in a different country), but it struck me the previous claims about amateur radio kit was a bit of a stretch.

Propagation won't be significantly different at 144 MHz than it is at 118-137 MHz - mainly line of sight, with sometimes tropospheric ducting extending range in high pressure areas, and handheld versions of either will be similar power. I'd speculate, though I could be corrected, that what seems to be described here as desert might have not much talkthrough repeater coverage.

On Wednesday, 2 September 2020 at 15:29:43 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Dammit Tom, you've got to stop clouding speculation with facts!

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 5:30:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 10:22:05 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
> > Also the safety record of “these idiots� as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk.. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles� I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies. And most of them fly with trackers.
> > Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> The authorities put in over 4,000 hours of time looking for this guy w/o success. That's TWO MAN YEARS (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/nevada/articles/2020-08-31/nevada-search-suspended-for-missing-new-zealand-paraglider). There were cu-nims in the area the day he flew, unsuitable conditions for paragliders in my opinion. This is from Wikipedia (not me):
> Due to the paramotor's [same aerodynamics as a paraglider] slow forward speed and nature of a soft wing, it is not safe in high winds, turbulence, or intense thermal activity.
> And:
> Over the years 1994−2010, an average of seven in every 10,000 active paraglider pilots have been fatally injured
>
> The range of the radios was estimated by his friend who flew with him that day. Ham radios are not aviation radios, so you can't communicate with other aircraft, particularly on 121.5. As you well know, 20 miles in that country can just make you that much more lost - and that's assuming they land w/o injury. I don't know how much water he was carrying, but it certainly wasn't enough for a full day (1 gallon). The guy covered about 54 miles in 3 hours, or averaged about 18 mph.
>
> This is Oroc/Johnston's own account of looking for another missing paraglider pilot (who did survive):
> https://xcmag.com/news/the-last-flight-of-xavier-murillo-by-james-kiwi-johnston/
> So, he knew exactly how hard it is to find these guys. And his buddies waited a FULL DAY to report them missing, and, then, ONLY at the urging of an Ely glider pilot - not that it made much difference in the end.
>
> I have done actual retrieves of fellow glider pilots in this terrain, and know how really bad it is. You may not want to judge these guys, but I am trying to save lives here. As such, I make NO apologies for these criticisms. You can do as YOU wish!

2G, if he crashed why didn't they find him, or anything else near his last inreach coordinates? Surely there would have been a canopy somewhere? So, yes, you are speculating. As usual.

[AS]

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 7:03:56 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 5:30:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 10:22:05 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
> > > Also the safety record of “these idiots� as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles� I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies. And most of them fly with trackers.
> > > Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> >
> > The authorities put in over 4,000 hours of time looking for this guy w/o success. That's TWO MAN YEARS (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/nevada/articles/2020-08-31/nevada-search-suspended-for-missing-new-zealand-paraglider). There were cu-nims in the area the day he flew, unsuitable conditions for paragliders in my opinion. This is from Wikipedia (not me):
> > Due to the paramotor's [same aerodynamics as a paraglider] slow forward speed and nature of a soft wing, it is not safe in high winds, turbulence, or intense thermal activity.
> > And:
> > Over the years 1994−2010, an average of seven in every 10,000 active paraglider pilots have been fatally injured
> >
> > The range of the radios was estimated by his friend who flew with him that day. Ham radios are not aviation radios, so you can't communicate with other aircraft, particularly on 121.5. As you well know, 20 miles in that country can just make you that much more lost - and that's assuming they land w/o injury. I don't know how much water he was carrying, but it certainly wasn't enough for a full day (1 gallon). The guy covered about 54 miles in 3 hours, or averaged about 18 mph.
> >
> > This is Oroc/Johnston's own account of looking for another missing paraglider pilot (who did survive):
> > https://xcmag.com/news/the-last-flight-of-xavier-murillo-by-james-kiwi-johnston/
> > So, he knew exactly how hard it is to find these guys. And his buddies waited a FULL DAY to report them missing, and, then, ONLY at the urging of an Ely glider pilot - not that it made much difference in the end.
> >
> > I have done actual retrieves of fellow glider pilots in this terrain, and know how really bad it is. You may not want to judge these guys, but I am trying to save lives here. As such, I make NO apologies for these criticisms. You can do as YOU wish!
>
> 2G, if he crashed why didn't they find him, or anything else near his last inreach coordinates? Surely there would have been a canopy somewhere? So, yes, you are speculating. As usual.

Well, remember how long it took to find Steve Fossett in September of 2007? He went down in a power plane with big, rigid wings. They even initiated 'crowd searching' by having volunteers analyzing high-res areal photos of the target area and I think he was eventually found by hikers.
If this fellow here went down, the para-sail could be wadded up under a shrub or tree and it would take for someone to trip over it to find him. Also, this is definitely terrain, where you are no longer on top of the food chain. There are critters out there that will find you and will eat you - as happened to Steve Fossett!

Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

Not to hijack the thread, but I was seriously disappointed in the quality of radio communication when I left hang gliders for sailplanes. With 2M amateur band radios and the repeater system in use worldwide, like MANY savvy and dedicated hang glider pilots, I enjoyed crystal clear comms with fellow pilots and hundreds of discrete simplex and duplex frequencies. I often "dialed up" the freqs used in Telluride while flying in New Mexico just to talk to my buddies who were in the air in Colorado.

Once I got into sailplanes, I was forced to accept the low quality RX/TX, minimal frequency choices and lack of a repeater network. I almost felt like smoke signals would be about as good.

So I carry a tiny 2M radio just in case. (Along with cell phone, InReach, spare battery, etc.)

[2G]

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 4:03:56 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 5:30:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 10:22:05 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
> > > Also the safety record of “these idiots� as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles� I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies. And most of them fly with trackers.
> > > Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> >
> > The authorities put in over 4,000 hours of time looking for this guy w/o success. That's TWO MAN YEARS (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/nevada/articles/2020-08-31/nevada-search-suspended-for-missing-new-zealand-paraglider). There were cu-nims in the area the day he flew, unsuitable conditions for paragliders in my opinion. This is from Wikipedia (not me):
> > Due to the paramotor's [same aerodynamics as a paraglider] slow forward speed and nature of a soft wing, it is not safe in high winds, turbulence, or intense thermal activity.
> > And:
> > Over the years 1994−2010, an average of seven in every 10,000 active paraglider pilots have been fatally injured
> >
> > The range of the radios was estimated by his friend who flew with him that day. Ham radios are not aviation radios, so you can't communicate with other aircraft, particularly on 121.5. As you well know, 20 miles in that country can just make you that much more lost - and that's assuming they land w/o injury. I don't know how much water he was carrying, but it certainly wasn't enough for a full day (1 gallon). The guy covered about 54 miles in 3 hours, or averaged about 18 mph.
> >
> > This is Oroc/Johnston's own account of looking for another missing paraglider pilot (who did survive):
> > https://xcmag.com/news/the-last-flight-of-xavier-murillo-by-james-kiwi-johnston/
> > So, he knew exactly how hard it is to find these guys. And his buddies waited a FULL DAY to report them missing, and, then, ONLY at the urging of an Ely glider pilot - not that it made much difference in the end.
> >
> > I have done actual retrieves of fellow glider pilots in this terrain, and know how really bad it is. You may not want to judge these guys, but I am trying to save lives here. As such, I make NO apologies for these criticisms. You can do as YOU wish!
> 2G, if he crashed why didn't they find him, or anything else near his last inreach coordinates? Surely there would have been a canopy somewhere? So, yes, you are speculating. As usual.

That is a VERY GOOD question. Remember, they couldn't find Steve Fossett's crash site even though they had over-flown it several times searching for him. Most likely Johnston's canopy deflated and he became entangled in it, preventing the use of his emergency chute (just like his friend's, Xavier, accident). This would make for a very small crash site footprint, which may be in rocks. And it would also depend upon the color of his wing, which could easily blend in with the surroundings.

Tom

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 8:48:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Not to hijack the thread, but I was seriously disappointed in the quality of radio communication when I left hang gliders for sailplanes. With 2M amateur band radios and the repeater system in use worldwide, like MANY savvy and dedicated hang glider pilots, I enjoyed crystal clear comms with fellow pilots and hundreds of discrete simplex and duplex frequencies. I often "dialed up" the freqs used in Telluride while flying in New Mexico just to talk to my buddies who were in the air in Colorado.
>
> Once I got into sailplanes, I was forced to accept the low quality RX/TX, minimal frequency choices and lack of a repeater network. I almost felt like smoke signals would be about as good.
>
> So I carry a tiny 2M radio just in case. (Along with cell phone, InReach, spare battery, etc.)

Besides the lack of repeaters for aviation frequencies, the low quality reception is due to the use of AM, while other VHF users, including ham radio, use FM. The reason for sticking with AM, beside the historical inertia since the 1940's, is that reflections of the radio waves off a rotating propeller would add a frequency wobble (due to Doppler effect) that would cause audible noise in an FM receiver. Or so I'm told. Anybody tried ham radio - or broadcast FM - reception in a powered plane?

I wonder why they don't make aviation radios that you can switch between AM (talking to ATC) and FM (while talking with compatible buddies in gliders)? The same bandwidth around the same frequency should be legal?

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 12:11:57 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 8:48:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Not to hijack the thread, but I was seriously disappointed in the quality of radio communication when I left hang gliders for sailplanes. With 2M amateur band radios and the repeater system in use worldwide, like MANY savvy and dedicated hang glider pilots, I enjoyed crystal clear comms with fellow pilots and hundreds of discrete simplex and duplex frequencies. I often "dialed up" the freqs used in Telluride while flying in New Mexico just to talk to my buddies who were in the air in Colorado.
> >
> > Once I got into sailplanes, I was forced to accept the low quality RX/TX, minimal frequency choices and lack of a repeater network. I almost felt like smoke signals would be about as good.
> >
> > So I carry a tiny 2M radio just in case. (Along with cell phone, InReach, spare battery, etc.)
>
> Besides the lack of repeaters for aviation frequencies, the low quality reception is due to the use of AM, while other VHF users, including ham radio, use FM. The reason for sticking with AM, beside the historical inertia since the 1940's, is that reflections of the radio waves off a rotating propeller would add a frequency wobble (due to Doppler effect) that would cause audible noise in an FM receiver. Or so I'm told. Anybody tried ham radio - or broadcast FM - reception in a powered plane?
>
> I wonder why they don't make aviation radios that you can switch between AM (talking to ATC) and FM (while talking with compatible buddies in gliders)? The same bandwidth around the same frequency should be legal?

On Maritime Patrol aircraft we had VHF-AM (ATC) and VHF-FM (Maritime radio) among others (UHF/HF/Satcom). P3's have 4 very large propellers. There was no frequency wobble or audible noise on VHF-FM. I think you might have been led astray.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 2:32:50 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 12:11:57 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 8:48:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > Not to hijack the thread, but I was seriously disappointed in the quality of radio communication when I left hang gliders for sailplanes. With 2M amateur band radios and the repeater system in use worldwide, like MANY savvy and dedicated hang glider pilots, I enjoyed crystal clear comms with fellow pilots and hundreds of discrete simplex and duplex frequencies. I often "dialed up" the freqs used in Telluride while flying in New Mexico just to talk to my buddies who were in the air in Colorado.
> > >
> > > Once I got into sailplanes, I was forced to accept the low quality RX/TX, minimal frequency choices and lack of a repeater network. I almost felt like smoke signals would be about as good.
> > >
> > > So I carry a tiny 2M radio just in case. (Along with cell phone, InReach, spare battery, etc.)
> >
> > Besides the lack of repeaters for aviation frequencies, the low quality reception is due to the use of AM, while other VHF users, including ham radio, use FM. The reason for sticking with AM, beside the historical inertia since the 1940's, is that reflections of the radio waves off a rotating propeller would add a frequency wobble (due to Doppler effect) that would cause audible noise in an FM receiver. Or so I'm told. Anybody tried ham radio - or broadcast FM - reception in a powered plane?
> >
> > I wonder why they don't make aviation radios that you can switch between AM (talking to ATC) and FM (while talking with compatible buddies in gliders)? The same bandwidth around the same frequency should be legal?
>
> On Maritime Patrol aircraft we had VHF-AM (ATC) and VHF-FM (Maritime radio) among others (UHF/HF/Satcom). P3's have 4 very large propellers. There was no frequency wobble or audible noise on VHF-FM. I think you might have been led astray.

So it's just historical inertia, over about 70 years? Wow. They didn't hesitate to make our old ELTs and transponders obsolete. Nor the older comm radios (with 100 KHz spacing, 50 KHz spacing, and now in Europe even the models with 25 KHz spacing). On each forced change in radios, the switch to FM could have been made? With some issues during the transition period, of course.

[[email protected]]

Almost nothing has been written on the web about communications with Kiwi prior to his disappearance - as if there may have been little to none. The other pilots apparently did not know that something had happened to him at that moment. 100+ mile communications are easy in true line-of-sight such as between aircraft, be it using FRS, GMRS, CB, Ham, or aviation COM. The conditions apparently allowed plenty of altitude for this.
I am surprised maybe because sailplanes here in Southern Arizona regularly report their location, including altitude, observations of conditions, and what they plan next or that their flight is in jeopardy (low and not finding lift). This is true even when not team flying, which involves even more chatter.
I think the choice of Amplitude Modulation for aviation COM was/is profoundly unfortunate. I can't think of a worse option. People have died because of miscommunication due to the characteristics of AM. UAT and GPS may be the only radio technologies available to civilian aviators that are anywhere near the current state of the art and they operate near optimal theoretical capability. All of the other systems appear to have been chosen by other than experts in physics, communications, and information theory.

WTWisniewski (HZ)

[AS]

> So it's just historical inertia, over about 70 years? Wow. They didn't hesitate to make our old ELTs and transponders obsolete. Nor the older comm radios (with 100 KHz spacing, 50 KHz spacing, and now in Europe even the models with 25 KHz spacing). On each forced change in radios, the switch to FM could have been made? With some issues during the transition period, of course.

Europe is down to 8.33kHz channel spacing now. That's what caused them to sell all these great used 25kHz radios.

Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 4:38:23 PM UTC-4, AS wrote:
> > So it's just historical inertia, over about 70 years? Wow. They didn't hesitate to make our old ELTs and transponders obsolete. Nor the older comm radios (with 100 KHz spacing, 50 KHz spacing, and now in Europe even the models with 25 KHz spacing). On each forced change in radios, the switch to FM could have been made? With some issues during the transition period, of course.
>
> Europe is down to 8.33kHz channel spacing now. That's what caused them to sell all these great used 25kHz radios.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

That's what I was saying. While forcing everybody to buy new radios, why didn't they switch to FM, or perhaps even modern digital modulation/encoding systems? The latter can include error correction and redundant data so as to smooth over dropouts.

In the USA they forced everybody to discard their analog TVs a decade ago. (Some people did use the conversion boxes, for a while.)

[2G]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 1:08:47 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Almost nothing has been written on the web about communications with Kiwi prior to his disappearance - as if there may have been little to none. The other pilots apparently did not know that something had happened to him at that moment. 100+ mile communications are easy in true line-of-sight such as between aircraft, be it using FRS, GMRS, CB, Ham, or aviation COM. The conditions apparently allowed plenty of altitude for this.
> I am surprised maybe because sailplanes here in Southern Arizona regularly report their location, including altitude, observations of conditions, and what they plan next or that their flight is in jeopardy (low and not finding lift). This is true even when not team flying, which involves even more chatter.
> I think the choice of Amplitude Modulation for aviation COM was/is profoundly unfortunate. I can't think of a worse option. People have died because of miscommunication due to the characteristics of AM. UAT and GPS may be the only radio technologies available to civilian aviators that are anywhere near the current state of the art and they operate near optimal theoretical capability. All of the other systems appear to have been chosen by other than experts in physics, communications, and information theory.
>
> WTWisniewski (HZ)

We do not get to chose which modulation method our radios use - that is dictated to us by the bureaucracy. My point in bringing it up is that these paraglider pilots had to means of communicating with other aircraft, which is potentially deadly in a SAR situation. I do know other glider pilots who do carry 2M ham radios, but not to the exclusion of VHF radios.

Tom

[[email protected]]

The main reason for "historical inertia" is that, when aircraft radios were first adopted, AM was just about all the current technology would support, and the International Aviation and Communication regulating bodies had to decide on a "common" frequency spectrum and technical standard. Since then, even thought FM has proven itself far superior, it would not be feasible to change over today. ALL aircraft radios and ground communication equipment would have to be changed SIMULTANEOUSLY worldwide. Additionally, the frequency spectrum is completely filled up and probably cannot support a new range exclusively for aviation use. Many countries use differing frequency allotments for some uses. For example, business band radios in the US (~151 Mhz) are not legal in Australia, as that frequency range is allotted for other licensed users.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 6:50:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> ALL aircraft radios and ground communication equipment would have to be changed SIMULTANEOUSLY worldwide.

Perhaps there was a lost opportunity to make the new channels in the 8.3khz radios FM?

I've heard old stories that the reason aside from history was that in the event of a double, with AM you hear both. But with FM the stronger signal may capture the receiver and you would not know that the second guy was there.

HAM's definitely are better at communicationg than the aircraft folks.

[2G]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 5:10:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 6:50:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > ALL aircraft radios and ground communication equipment would have to be changed SIMULTANEOUSLY worldwide.
>
> Perhaps there was a lost opportunity to make the new channels in the 8.3khz radios FM?
>
> I've heard old stories that the reason aside from history was that in the event of a double, with AM you hear both. But with FM the stronger signal may capture the receiver and you would not know that the second guy was there.
>
> HAM's definitely are better at communicationg than the aircraft folks.

Another issue with 2M Ham radios is that you need, at a minimum, an FCC amateur technician license to transmit legally.
https://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Radio_Frequencies_used_by_Hang_Gliding_Pilots
https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/amateur-radio-service

Tom

[[email protected]]

> > HAM's definitely are better at communicationg than the aircraft folks.
> Another issue with 2M Ham radios is that you need, at a minimum, an FCC amateur technician license to transmit legally.
> https://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Radio_Frequencies_used_by_Hang_Gliding_Pilots
> https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/amateur-radio-service
>
> Tom

It's not a difficult test. I'm an extra class and if you ask Wes I'm not nearly as smart as he is.

[2G]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 8:33:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > HAM's definitely are better at communicationg than the aircraft folks.
> > Another issue with 2M Ham radios is that you need, at a minimum, an FCC amateur technician license to transmit legally.
> > https://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Radio_Frequencies_used_by_Hang_Gliding_Pilots
> > https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/amateur-radio-service
> >
> > Tom
>
> It's not a difficult test. I'm an extra class and if you ask Wes I'm not nearly as smart as he is.

But, it IS a test, which means studying for it - and try finding someplace where you can take the test right now.

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

Yaas...Â* But most aircraft folks can fly better than most ham folks.

On 9/3/2020 6:10 PM, wrote:
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 6:50:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>> ALL aircraft radios and ground communication equipment would have to be changed SIMULTANEOUSLY worldwide.
> Perhaps there was a lost opportunity to make the new channels in the 8.3khz radios FM?
>
> I've heard old stories that the reason aside from history was that in the event of a double, with AM you hear both. But with FM the stronger signal may capture the receiver and you would not know that the second guy was there.
>
> HAM's definitely are better at communicationg than the aircraft folks.

--
Dan, 5J

[David Shelton[_2_]]

There's an FCC exemption in place for members of the US Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association. This allows paragliders to use designated frequencies without an FCC license. I fly paragliders with a Yaesu FT-270 and it works just as well as my aviation handheld. Overall, my experience has been that HAM radios work very well with the paragliding community, and they rarely have any need to communicate with GA traffic.

Paragliding is budget-oriented and radio use would be far less common if they had to shell out $200-$300 for aviation handheld radios. Thanks to the availability of affordable HAM radios ($30 BaoFeng radios are super popular), nearly all paragliders are radio equipped.

In practice, paragliders often trample on non-approved frequencies and exhibit poor radio ettiquette. That's always going to be the case unless we eliminate Part 103 and require them to become private pilots. Overall, it's probably a very good thing that paragliders aren't communicating on GA frequencies.

[Dan Marotta]

Have they found the lost pilot yet?

On 9/13/2020 3:34 AM, David Shelton wrote:
> There's an FCC exemption in place for members of the US Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association. This allows paragliders to use designated frequencies without an FCC license. I fly paragliders with a Yaesu FT-270 and it works just as well as my aviation handheld. Overall, my experience has been that HAM radios work very well with the paragliding community, and they rarely have any need to communicate with GA traffic.
>
> Paragliding is budget-oriented and radio use would be far less common if they had to shell out $200-$300 for aviation handheld radios. Thanks to the availability of affordable HAM radios ($30 BaoFeng radios are super popular), nearly all paragliders are radio equipped.
>
> In practice, paragliders often trample on non-approved frequencies and exhibit poor radio ettiquette. That's always going to be the case unless we eliminate Part 103 and require them to become private pilots. Overall, it's probably a very good thing that paragliders aren't communicating on GA frequencies.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

The FT-270 isn't type certificated for use on USHPA allocated frequencies. Nobody really cares. I think the FCC Enforcement Bureau is more interested in pirate broadcasters, cellular and PCS. If you look at proposed enforcement action it pretty well died the day Riley Hollingsworth retired.

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 10:28:23 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Have they found the lost pilot yet?

https://elkodaily.com/news/local/search-called-off-for-missing-paraglider-south-of-eureka/article_78107b35-d5c2-5c7d-9130-53a9d9b0c211.html

https://www.thewanakasun.co.nz/news/13804-search-continues-missing-paraglider.html

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Ah Shoot
This is sad news.
So hard on all involved.
I hope the find this pilot before too long.
I hate to say this but look for the circling birds low to the ground.
Thats how we found one of my ski partners missing here in Telluride.
Nick
T

[George Haeh]

I was involved on a search for a wingsuiter. We had people on foot and helicopter over a limited area. The helicopter crew checked out the crow/raven congregations. We did find the remains of a person who had gone missing some three years before, but not the wingsuiter.

[2G]

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 2:34:22 AM UTC-7, David Shelton wrote:
> There's an FCC exemption in place for members of the US Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association. This allows paragliders to use designated frequencies without an FCC license. I fly paragliders with a Yaesu FT-270 and it works just as well as my aviation handheld. Overall, my experience has been that HAM radios work very well with the paragliding community, and they rarely have any need to communicate with GA traffic.
>
> Paragliding is budget-oriented and radio use would be far less common if they had to shell out $200-$300 for aviation handheld radios. Thanks to the availability of affordable HAM radios ($30 BaoFeng radios are super popular), nearly all paragliders are radio equipped.
>
> In practice, paragliders often trample on non-approved frequencies and exhibit poor radio ettiquette. That's always going to be the case unless we eliminate Part 103 and require them to become private pilots. Overall, it's probably a very good thing that paragliders aren't communicating on GA frequencies.

Johnston most likely had a canopy deflation, got entangled in it, and went down in a clump, unable to deploy his reserve. In this situation, he would have been totally preoccupied with freeing himself and not communicating. And he would have been killed instantly by the impact, so no need for communication then, either. I am referring to a survivable crash landing where he could, at least, communicate to rescuers. These guys don't seem to consider the consequences and the effort that will be expended trying to locate them. I have even had this conversation with other glider pilots. They just don't care.

Tom

[Ramy[_2_]]

Those who don’t fly with a tracker don’t care, and frankly, I don’t think we should go overboard to search for someone who deliberately makes the decision not to fly with a tracker. I know very few such glider pilots and said the same to them. Maybe if they will understand that a tracker will expedite payments to their family they will start using them?
Those who fly with a tracker such as Johnston care to be found, and normally found quickly. It is the first time I hear of not being able to find someone who flew with a tracker. Very unfortunate.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

I like signal mirrors. Radios are great, technology is awesome, but I still like signal mirrors. Sky full of aircraft with guard receivers and nobody listening on guard. For real. I'm not making this up. What ended up working? Signal mirror. True story at the National Training Center - Fort Irwin.

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Speculation on missing people is a bad idea. I've been involved with 3 long term searches, all 3 went way, way off the rails. Huge dedicated search teams, found all 3 eventually. In all 3 of these accidents, search teams went over the missing person and somehow missed them on the first go.
In this accident could it be be, that, he somehow dropped his Tracker, flew on and then later, many miles away, had a major problem? Is he in the local area the tracker last pinged? In a crevasse? Just out of sight?
I used my InReach today and looked at the strap, it seems quite sturdy. Again, speculation which is often wrong. It's So hard on the friends and family not knowing. A bad situation that won't seem to end.
Remember how long it took for someone, way off any trail and not even looking, to stumble upon Steve Fossett?
Years.
Nevada is huge, and extremely rural and remote, he could be anywhere.
He might not ever be found.
This is a good lesson for us Glider Pilots to make sure our trackers stay attached to our body's in a bail out incident. If you bailed out in the wind or wave at 17K and lost your tracker you could drift quite a way.
Everyone I fly with has a Tracker and Flarm, were evolving and getting better.
Fly safe in 2020
Nick
T

[2G]

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 7:23:29 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Speculation on missing people is a bad idea. I've been involved with 3 long term searches, all 3 went way, way off the rails. Huge dedicated search teams, found all 3 eventually. In all 3 of these accidents, search teams went over the missing person and somehow missed them on the first go.
> In this accident could it be be, that, he somehow dropped his Tracker, flew on and then later, many miles away, had a major problem? Is he in the local area the tracker last pinged? In a crevasse? Just out of sight?
> I used my InReach today and looked at the strap, it seems quite sturdy. Again, speculation which is often wrong. It's So hard on the friends and family not knowing. A bad situation that won't seem to end.
> Remember how long it took for someone, way off any trail and not even looking, to stumble upon Steve Fossett?
> Years.
> Nevada is huge, and extremely rural and remote, he could be anywhere.
> He might not ever be found.
> This is a good lesson for us Glider Pilots to make sure our trackers stay attached to our body's in a bail out incident. If you bailed out in the wind or wave at 17K and lost your tracker you could drift quite a way.
> Everyone I fly with has a Tracker and Flarm, were evolving and getting better.
> Fly safe in 2020
> Nick
> T

The speculation that Johnston somehow "dropped" his InReach and flew on is fourth-order wishful thinking. Even if he did, he couldn't have gotten far because the day was dying and his buddies landed ahead of him at Eureka, his direction of travel. Nonetheless, he would still have had his ham radio, which he did not respond to - did he drop that as well?

S&R can't say "He was irresponsible, so we aren't going to look for him." They WILL expend a massive search operation regardless. Johnston actually took reasonable precautions short of having a spotter aircraft follow him. In retrospect, that would have been far cheaper than the unsuccessful search that was undertaken. The simplest option is to not attempt the flight at all, but that was not in his nature. Unfortunately, this type of accident just attracts copycats rather than deterring them.

Tom

[NWS Admin]

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:27:46 AM UTC+2, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 7:23:29 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > Speculation on missing people is a bad idea. I've been involved with 3 long term searches, all 3 went way, way off the rails. Huge dedicated search teams, found all 3 eventually. In all 3 of these accidents, search teams went over the missing person and somehow missed them on the first go.
> > In this accident could it be be, that, he somehow dropped his Tracker, flew on and then later, many miles away, had a major problem? Is he in the local area the tracker last pinged? In a crevasse? Just out of sight?
> > I used my InReach today and looked at the strap, it seems quite sturdy. Again, speculation which is often wrong. It's So hard on the friends and family not knowing. A bad situation that won't seem to end.
> > Remember how long it took for someone, way off any trail and not even looking, to stumble upon Steve Fossett?
> > Years.
> > Nevada is huge, and extremely rural and remote, he could be anywhere.
> > He might not ever be found.
> > This is a good lesson for us Glider Pilots to make sure our trackers stay attached to our body's in a bail out incident. If you bailed out in the wind or wave at 17K and lost your tracker you could drift quite a way.
> > Everyone I fly with has a Tracker and Flarm, were evolving and getting better.
> > Fly safe in 2020
> > Nick
> > T
> The speculation that Johnston somehow "dropped" his InReach and flew on is fourth-order wishful thinking. Even if he did, he couldn't have gotten far because the day was dying and his buddies landed ahead of him at Eureka, his direction of travel. Nonetheless, he would still have had his ham radio, which he did not respond to - did he drop that as well?
>
> S&R can't say "He was irresponsible, so we aren't going to look for him." They WILL expend a massive search operation regardless. Johnston actually took reasonable precautions short of having a spotter aircraft follow him. In retrospect, that would have been far cheaper than the unsuccessful search that was undertaken. The simplest option is to not attempt the flight at all, but that was not in his nature. Unfortunately, this type of accident just attracts copycats rather than deterring them.
>
> Tom

They've found his glider
https://xcmag.com/news/kiwi-johnston-glider-found-16km-downtrack/

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 10:51:24 AM UTC-4, NWS Admin wrote:
> On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:27:46 AM UTC+2, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 7:23:29 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > > Speculation on missing people is a bad idea. I've been involved with 3 long term searches, all 3 went way, way off the rails. Huge dedicated search teams, found all 3 eventually. In all 3 of these accidents, search teams went over the missing person and somehow missed them on the first go.
> > > In this accident could it be be, that, he somehow dropped his Tracker, flew on and then later, many miles away, had a major problem? Is he in the local area the tracker last pinged? In a crevasse? Just out of sight?
> > > I used my InReach today and looked at the strap, it seems quite sturdy. Again, speculation which is often wrong. It's So hard on the friends and family not knowing. A bad situation that won't seem to end.
> > > Remember how long it took for someone, way off any trail and not even looking, to stumble upon Steve Fossett?
> > > Years.
> > > Nevada is huge, and extremely rural and remote, he could be anywhere.
> > > He might not ever be found.
> > > This is a good lesson for us Glider Pilots to make sure our trackers stay attached to our body's in a bail out incident. If you bailed out in the wind or wave at 17K and lost your tracker you could drift quite a way.
> > > Everyone I fly with has a Tracker and Flarm, were evolving and getting better.
> > > Fly safe in 2020
> > > Nick
> > > T
> > The speculation that Johnston somehow "dropped" his InReach and flew on is fourth-order wishful thinking. Even if he did, he couldn't have gotten far because the day was dying and his buddies landed ahead of him at Eureka, his direction of travel. Nonetheless, he would still have had his ham radio, which he did not respond to - did he drop that as well?
> >
> > S&R can't say "He was irresponsible, so we aren't going to look for him.." They WILL expend a massive search operation regardless. Johnston actually took reasonable precautions short of having a spotter aircraft follow him.. In retrospect, that would have been far cheaper than the unsuccessful search that was undertaken. The simplest option is to not attempt the flight at all, but that was not in his nature. Unfortunately, this type of accident just attracts copycats rather than deterring them.
> >
> > Tom
> They've found his glider
> https://xcmag.com/news/kiwi-johnston-glider-found-16km-downtrack/
Good, but not good, where is the harness, still attached to the pilot?sucked up and released canopy, then reserve possibly failed. I bet the harness is still attached to the pilot, sad to say.

[2G]

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 2:27:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 10:51:24 AM UTC-4, NWS Admin wrote:
> > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:27:46 AM UTC+2, 2G wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 7:23:29 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > > > Speculation on missing people is a bad idea. I've been involved with 3 long term searches, all 3 went way, way off the rails. Huge dedicated search teams, found all 3 eventually. In all 3 of these accidents, search teams went over the missing person and somehow missed them on the first go.
> > > > In this accident could it be be, that, he somehow dropped his Tracker, flew on and then later, many miles away, had a major problem? Is he in the local area the tracker last pinged? In a crevasse? Just out of sight?
> > > > I used my InReach today and looked at the strap, it seems quite sturdy. Again, speculation which is often wrong. It's So hard on the friends and family not knowing. A bad situation that won't seem to end.
> > > > Remember how long it took for someone, way off any trail and not even looking, to stumble upon Steve Fossett?
> > > > Years.
> > > > Nevada is huge, and extremely rural and remote, he could be anywhere.
> > > > He might not ever be found.
> > > > This is a good lesson for us Glider Pilots to make sure our trackers stay attached to our body's in a bail out incident. If you bailed out in the wind or wave at 17K and lost your tracker you could drift quite a way.
> > > > Everyone I fly with has a Tracker and Flarm, were evolving and getting better.
> > > > Fly safe in 2020
> > > > Nick
> > > > T
> > > The speculation that Johnston somehow "dropped" his InReach and flew on is fourth-order wishful thinking. Even if he did, he couldn't have gotten far because the day was dying and his buddies landed ahead of him at Eureka, his direction of travel. Nonetheless, he would still have had his ham radio, which he did not respond to - did he drop that as well?
> > >
> > > S&R can't say "He was irresponsible, so we aren't going to look for him." They WILL expend a massive search operation regardless. Johnston actually took reasonable precautions short of having a spotter aircraft follow him. In retrospect, that would have been far cheaper than the unsuccessful search that was undertaken. The simplest option is to not attempt the flight at all, but that was not in his nature. Unfortunately, this type of accident just attracts copycats rather than deterring them.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > They've found his glider
> > https://xcmag.com/news/kiwi-johnston-glider-found-16km-downtrack/
> Good, but not good, where is the harness, still attached to the pilot?sucked up and released canopy, then reserve possibly failed. I bet the harness is still attached to the pilot, sad to say.

It seems to indicate that Johnston abandoned his wing and activated his reserve. There were cu-nims in that area could have sucked him up. If so, he could have been carried quite a ways downwind before coming out. Still doesn't explain why his InReach stopped transmitting.

Tom

[[email protected]]

> They've found his glider
> https://xcmag.com/news/kiwi-johnston-glider-found-16km-downtrack/

Well, that's some progress.

For a satellite search, I wonder if they can compare shots from multiple days before with one after and see what usually changes and what else changed on the day after?

[Waveguru]

Sorry to say they found his body. Not much info at this time:

It is with great relief and deep sorrow that we share that James has been found, departed peacefully at rest under a tree. At this time these are the only details we have about the particular circumstances that led James to his untimely departure while flying in Nevada.

https://rb.gy/pn6s8d

Boggs

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 6:04:59 PM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
> Sorry to say they found his body. Not much info at this time:
>
> It is with great relief and deep sorrow that we share that James has been found, departed peacefully at rest under a tree. At this time these are the only details we have about the particular circumstances that led James to his untimely departure while flying in Nevada.
>
> https://rb.gy/pn6s8d
>
> Boggs
Sorry to hear, but sorta glad for closure for family & friends..

[Soartech]

Please don't post cryptic links that hide FAKEBOOK.
Here is the information in a respected website: https://xcmag.com/news/kiwi-johnston-found-at-rest-under-a-tree/

> https://rb.gy/pn6s8d
>
> Boggs

[Semantics Michael]

On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 9:32:21 AM UTC-5, Soartech wrote:
> Please don't post cryptic links that hide FAKEBOOK.
> Here is the information in a respected website: https://xcmag.com/news/kiwi-johnston-found-at-rest-under-a-tree/
>
> > https://rb.gy/pn6s8d
> >
> > Boggs

What gives with the fragile tempers on RAS? You make it sound like the poster conspired to infect the entire digital universe. While I never will understand the attraction for Facebook (Could there be a worse platform to navigate?), many of us had been closely following the missing paraglider pilot and the tremendous efforts to locate him. You did no wrong by offering up an alternative URL (albeit w/less complete info), but your transparent campaign to slam Facebook was an opportunity you could easily have passed up. Is this how you engage guests in your living room?

[2G]

On Sunday, September 20, 2020 at 12:25:54 PM UTC-7, Semantics Michael wrote:
> On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 9:32:21 AM UTC-5, Soartech wrote:
> > Please don't post cryptic links that hide FAKEBOOK.
> > Here is the information in a respected website: https://xcmag.com/news/kiwi-johnston-found-at-rest-under-a-tree/
> >
> > > https://rb.gy/pn6s8d
> > >
> > > Boggs
>
> What gives with the fragile tempers on RAS? You make it sound like the poster conspired to infect the entire digital universe. While I never will understand the attraction for Facebook (Could there be a worse platform to navigate?), many of us had been closely following the missing paraglider pilot and the tremendous efforts to locate him. You did no wrong by offering up an alternative URL (albeit w/less complete info), but your transparent campaign to slam Facebook was an opportunity you could easily have passed up. Is this how you engage guests in your living room?

Additional information on the accident is now available. The Eureka County Sheriff issued this notice:

The Sheriff’s Office determined his cause of death as multiple blunt force trauma due to a high-elevation fall.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/local-nevada/missing-paraglider-found-dead-in-central-nevada-2126390/#:~:text=James%20%E2%80%9CKiwi%E2%80%9D%20Johnston %20of%20New,Creek%20Range%20in%20Eureka%20County.&text=The%20body%20of%20the%20paraglider,Friday%2C% 20Eureka%20County%20officials%20said.
The Sheriff, Jesse Watts, refused to give any further details, citing a request by Johnston's family. However, members of the search team that recovered his body said Johnston did not deploy his emergency reserve chute. Barring suicide, he must have become incapacitated somehow. Hypoxia is high on the list, as it is doubtful they have supplemental oxygen.

These paragliders are notoriously unstable, as can be seen in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUc-MJngQyg
This video has some pretty disturbing sequences at 1:00 and 1:30 of the wings collapsing with the pilots entangled. An attempted emergency chute deployment is at 23:16.

[AS]

> Additional information on the accident is now available. The Eureka County Sheriff issued this notice:
>
> The Sheriff’s Office determined his cause of death as multiple blunt force trauma due to a high-elevation fall.
> https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/local-nevada/missing-paraglider-found-dead-in-central-nevada-2126390/#:~:text=James%20%E2%80%9CKiwi%E2%80%9D%20Johnston %20of%20New,Creek%20Range%20in%20Eureka%20County.&text=The%20body%20of%20the%20paraglider,Friday%2C% 20Eureka%20County%20officials%20said.
> The Sheriff, Jesse Watts, refused to give any further details, citing a request by Johnston's family. However, members of the search team that recovered his body said Johnston did not deploy his emergency reserve chute. Barring suicide, he must have become incapacitated somehow. Hypoxia is high on the list, as it is doubtful they have supplemental oxygen.
>
> These paragliders are notoriously unstable, as can be seen in this video:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUc-MJngQyg
> This video has some pretty disturbing sequences at 1:00 and 1:30 of the wings collapsing with the pilots entangled. An attempted emergency chute deployment is at 23:16.

>> Hypoxia is high on the list, as it is doubtful they have supplemental oxygen. <<
If you look closely at one of the photos showing the now deceased pilot, he is wearing an oxy-miser canula under his helmet, so I would say that he has supplemental O2 in his rig somewhere.

Uli
'AS'

[2G]

On Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 3:07:49 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > Additional information on the accident is now available. The Eureka County Sheriff issued this notice:
> >
> > The Sheriff’s Office determined his cause of death as multiple blunt force trauma due to a high-elevation fall.
> > https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/local-nevada/missing-paraglider-found-dead-in-central-nevada-2126390/#:~:text=James%20%E2%80%9CKiwi%E2%80%9D%20Johnston %20of%20New,Creek%20Range%20in%20Eureka%20County.&text=The%20body%20of%20the%20paraglider,Friday%2C% 20Eureka%20County%20officials%20said.
> > The Sheriff, Jesse Watts, refused to give any further details, citing a request by Johnston's family. However, members of the search team that recovered his body said Johnston did not deploy his emergency reserve chute. Barring suicide, he must have become incapacitated somehow. Hypoxia is high on the list, as it is doubtful they have supplemental oxygen.
> >
> > These paragliders are notoriously unstable, as can be seen in this video:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUc-MJngQyg
> > This video has some pretty disturbing sequences at 1:00 and 1:30 of the wings collapsing with the pilots entangled. An attempted emergency chute deployment is at 23:16.
>
> >> Hypoxia is high on the list, as it is doubtful they have supplemental oxygen. <<
> If you look closely at one of the photos showing the now deceased pilot, he is wearing an oxy-miser canula under his helmet, so I would say that he has supplemental O2 in his rig somewhere.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

Yes, I see it now. Nonetheless, his O2 system could have failed or he, simply, ran out. Regardless, he must have been incapacitated somehow. Here is another updated report:
https://xcmag.com/news/kiwi-johnston-more-accident-details-released/

[Ramy[_2_]]

O2 should be very low on the list. At the altitude he was flying 14-16K it will mostly give you a headache. Even at 18K, you not going to pass out, especially not someone in physical shape to be able to hike up a mountain and fly a paraglider.
I often see O2 and dehydration high on the list of possible causes, as if you suddenly pass out if you don’t start using O2 at 10K or drink few gallons of water.
I am not going to speculate but there can be many reasons higher on the list.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

> I am not going to speculate but there can be many reasons higher on the list.
>
> Ramy

Don't worry, Ramy. There are lots of "expert" speculators on this topic. None of whom have any experience with paragliding or hang gliding. Unlike us, with 20 or more years of foot launch adventures in our logbooks.

Let 'em go. They have proclaimed their expertise and will not be willing to accept differing opinions.

[George Haeh]

The XCMag post suggests he lost consciousness in a spiral dive before the paraglider failed. In a separate accident where the tailplane came off a glider and the canopies remained on, I heard a similar suggestion. GLOC requires a lot of g and I'm not confident that happened in either case.

The YouTube referenced earlier shows one example of a paraglider ditching the wing and popping the reserve. It looks like you need a lot of height before you can get the reserve canopy open.

[2G]

On Wednesday, September 23, 2020 at 5:23:41 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> O2 should be very low on the list. At the altitude he was flying 14-16K it will mostly give you a headache. Even at 18K, you not going to pass out, especially not someone in physical shape to be able to hike up a mountain and fly a paraglider.
> I often see O2 and dehydration high on the list of possible causes, as if you suddenly pass out if you don’t start using O2 at 10K or drink few gallons of water.
> I am not going to speculate but there can be many reasons higher on the list.
>
> Ramy

Have you taken a hypoxia course with an altitude chamber ride, Ramy? The first thing they tell you is that hypoxia symptoms and effects very widely from one individual to the next. Thus you are the one who is speculating.

[Dave Walsh[_2_]]

The XCMag referenced above mentions a "psychedelic community"
involved in fund raising for the search.
What is a psychedelic community?

[2G]

On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 5:15:06 AM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
> The XCMag referenced above mentions a "psychedelic community"
> involved in fund raising for the search.
> What is a psychedelic community?

That is a throwback reference to the Timothy Leary recreational drug era 60s.

Tom

[Matthew Scutter]

On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 2:15:06 PM UTC+2, Dave Walsh wrote:
> The XCMag referenced above mentions a "psychedelic community"
> involved in fund raising for the search.
> What is a psychedelic community?

Well, he wrote some books which were quite popular: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/James-Oroc/dp/1594772991

[Nicholas Kennedy]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1chinoOOdkPzAuKzD5LW9jTR-KmqHt68Q/view?usp=sharing

Accident report write up.
Poor guy, sounds like he was having a great day until he wasn't.
Nick
T

[[email protected]]

On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 6:56:22 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1chinoOOdkPzAuKzD5LW9jTR-KmqHt68Q/view?usp=sharing
>
> Accident report write up.
> Poor guy, sounds like he was having a great day until he wasn't.
> Nick
> T

Respect to the family for their efforts to improve safety.

[Mike Carris[_2_]]

On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 6:15:06 AM UTC-6, Dave Walsh wrote:
> The XCMag referenced above mentions a "psychedelic community"
> involved in fund raising for the search.
> What is a psychedelic community?

It seemed that James was a member of an inner research group that used hallucinogenics in an attempt to find the origin of "self" or consciousness. Psychedelic induced experiences for this purpose have an ancient history from the early times, first recorded in the Soma Veda (1000 BCE) to present. The man seemed to be part of that community, also suggested by the tattoo of a Yogic Yantra on his chest. Wishing him peace and a favorable journey.

Mike

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

Sad event.

In the accident report it mentions, "Of the upper lines still attached to the canopy, we can see that the vast majority were incorrectly
mounted." This was listed in the conclusions section as one of the contributing factors.

In the Recommendations section the report says that, "When re-lining a wing, ensure the lines are placed on the attachment tabs correctly. The loop of the lines must be held by the attachment tabs. Lines should not be attached with a lark’s foot as this significantly reduces their strength. If you are unsure of the correct procedure, always consult with a professional."

This is unclear to me what the correct attachment method is. Anyone have the low down?

Thanks, John (OHM)

[Dan Marotta]

The report was very informative and well written, though I had to look
up some of the jargon to gain a fuller understanding of what likely
happened. Given the location and duration of the flight, I wonder if he
carried enough water to avoid dehydration which can also decrease g
tolerance. A sad event, indeed.

--
Dan
5J

[Dennis Cavagnaro]

Often fly 300-500km? Often??? Sebastian Kayrouz just set the record of 501 in the US a couple months ago. Take a zero off that comment and you might be closer to the truth. I find it difficult to compare Paragliding and Hang gliding to sailplanes. Its really a different breed. That said i agree they are capable under the most specific conditions with very high skilled pilots.

DC



On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 1:22:05 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
> Also the safety record of “these idiots� as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles� I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies.. And most of them fly with trackers.
> Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.
>
> Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 12:06:02 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> The report was very informative and well written, though I had to look
> up some of the jargon to gain a fuller understanding of what likely
> happened. Given the location and duration of the flight, I wonder if he
> carried enough water to avoid dehydration which can also decrease g
> tolerance. A sad event, indeed.
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J

Dan, you make a good point, the tell, tell of the situation is why the reserve was not activated, certainly points to incapacity of the pilot. My wife is also a jumper, well, she was before she ended up in a cast for a year, she looked at the report and said, he was not conscious.

[Nicholas Kennedy]

https://snowbrains.com/new-paragliding-world-and-us-record-578km/

Little more information on what these guys are capable of.
Paragliding has come along ways in its short history.
Nick Kennedy
1997 and 99 US Nationals Paragliding Contest Director.
In both the above contests we had a fatality BTW.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Yeah 500km was a bit of a stretch, but 300Km are not uncommon in many places.
100-200km are pretty common in the areas I fly. These are typically straight distance, not yo-yos.
The point is that they actually fly further than many sailplane pilots in some of the places I fly, which is very respectful distance for a bag with less than 10:1 glide ratio.

Ramy

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 10:10:03 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Often fly 300-500km? Often??? Sebastian Kayrouz just set the record of 501 in the US a couple months ago. Take a zero off that comment and you might be closer to the truth. I find it difficult to compare Paragliding and Hang gliding to sailplanes. Its really a different breed. That said i agree they are capable under the most specific conditions with very high skilled pilots.
>
> DC
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 1:22:05 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> > Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
> > Also the safety record of “these idiots� as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk.. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles� I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies. And most of them fly with trackers.
> > Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.
> >
> > Ramy

[Dennis Cavagnaro]

Ramy......I agree that excellent pilots are performing well with PGs .... Their advantage is they can land anywhere. To give any impression that a basic group of pilots can expect to regularly go 100 200k is over stating. BTW I believe we both flew hang gliders back in Chelan in the early 90s. -:)

DC



On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 8:08:18 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> Yeah 500km was a bit of a stretch, but 300Km are not uncommon in many places.
> 100-200km are pretty common in the areas I fly. These are typically straight distance, not yo-yos.
> The point is that they actually fly further than many sailplane pilots in some of the places I fly, which is very respectful distance for a bag with less than 10:1 glide ratio.
>
> Ramy
> On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 10:10:03 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Often fly 300-500km? Often??? Sebastian Kayrouz just set the record of 501 in the US a couple months ago. Take a zero off that comment and you might be closer to the truth. I find it difficult to compare Paragliding and Hang gliding to sailplanes. Its really a different breed. That said i agree they are capable under the most specific conditions with very high skilled pilots.
> >
> > DC
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 1:22:05 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> > > Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
> > > Also the safety record of “these idiots� as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles� I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies. And most of them fly with trackers.
> > > Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.
> > >
> > > Ramy

[David Shelton[_2_]]

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 8:52:26 AM UTC-8, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> Sad event.
>
> In the accident report it mentions, "Of the upper lines still attached to the canopy, we can see that the vast majority were incorrectly
> mounted." This was listed in the conclusions section as one of the contributing factors.
>
> In the Recommendations section the report says that, "When re-lining a wing, ensure the lines are placed on the attachment tabs correctly. The loop of the lines must be held by the attachment tabs. Lines should not be attached with a lark’s foot as this significantly reduces their strength.. If you are unsure of the correct procedure, always consult with a professional."
>
> This is unclear to me what the correct attachment method is. Anyone have the low down?
>
> Thanks, John (OHM)

John,

This video illustrates the right, and wrong way to attach lines. https://youtu.be/o-PjtwytC5M

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

On Wednesday, December 9, 2020 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-6, David Shelton wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 8:52:26 AM UTC-8, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > Sad event.
> >
> > In the accident report it mentions, "Of the upper lines still attached to the canopy, we can see that the vast majority were incorrectly
> > mounted." This was listed in the conclusions section as one of the contributing factors.
> >
> > In the Recommendations section the report says that, "When re-lining a wing, ensure the lines are placed on the attachment tabs correctly. The loop of the lines must be held by the attachment tabs. Lines should not be attached with a lark’s foot as this significantly reduces their strength. If you are unsure of the correct procedure, always consult with a professional."
> >
> > This is unclear to me what the correct attachment method is. Anyone have the low down?
> >
> > Thanks, John (OHM)
> John,
>
> This video illustrates the right, and wrong way to attach lines. https://youtu.be/o-PjtwytC5M

Dave,

Thanks. That explains all. The right way basically forms what looks like a "square knot" (especially on similar line sizes)

But (there is always a but) - It would seem that the correct way's "square knot" attachment method could, if it become loose, reform itself into the wrong way. That is, if I did it the wrong way, I could reform it into the correct way without having to completely undo the line(s).

While this could possibly happen from time to time it would not have happened on the "vast majority" (per the report) of connections.

Thanks again, John OHM

[kenward1000]

Recently sat in on a Zoom seminar about XC flying hang gliders in the Owens Valley, hosted by the SF Bay Area largest HG/PG club. The presenter is an experienced pilot. However several points he made, alarmed me. First he didn't recommend that anyone carry oxygen, as he doesn't, because he feels he doesn't get hypoxic. Second he claimed that he regularly flies above 18K', sometimes higher than 20K', w/o O2. I get hypoxic above 14K' in my LAK-12. No discussion of MOAs, unaware of Procedure Alpha on the Whites. Disdained aircraft radios in favor of ham radios. I've flown the Owens several times in a HG, and the conditions encountered made me decide to get a glider rating and use the right tool for flying XC there. The thought of flying XC in a PG in the mountains just makes me shake my head. That's a hard NO for me.

[Tango Eight]

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 1:05:42 AM UTC-5, kenward1000 wrote:
> Recently sat in on a Zoom seminar about XC flying hang gliders in the Owens Valley, hosted by the SF Bay Area largest HG/PG club. The presenter is an experienced pilot. However several points he made, alarmed me. First he didn't recommend that anyone carry oxygen, as he doesn't, because he feels he doesn't get hypoxic. Second he claimed that he regularly flies above 18K', sometimes higher than 20K', w/o O2. I get hypoxic above 14K' in my LAK-12.. No discussion of MOAs, unaware of Procedure Alpha on the Whites. Disdained aircraft radios in favor of ham radios. I've flown the Owens several times in a HG, and the conditions encountered made me decide to get a glider rating and use the right tool for flying XC there. The thought of flying XC in a PG in the mountains just makes me shake my head. That's a hard NO for me.

The presenter seems hypoxic at sea level.

T8

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Tango Eight wrote on 12/10/2020 3:59 AM:
> On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 1:05:42 AM UTC-5, kenward1000 wrote:
>> Recently sat in on a Zoom seminar about XC flying hang gliders in the Owens Valley, hosted by the SF Bay Area largest HG/PG club. The presenter is an experienced pilot. However several points he made, alarmed me. First he didn't recommend that anyone carry oxygen, as he doesn't, because he feels he doesn't get hypoxic. Second he claimed that he regularly flies above 18K', sometimes higher than 20K', w/o O2. I get hypoxic above 14K' in my LAK-12.. No discussion of MOAs, unaware of Procedure Alpha on the Whites. Disdained aircraft radios in favor of ham radios. I've flown the Owens several times in a HG, and the conditions encountered made me decide to get a glider rating and use the right tool for flying XC there. The thought of flying XC in a PG in the mountains just makes me shake my head. That's a hard NO for me.
>
> The presenter seems hypoxic at sea level.
>
> T8

The Mountain High electronic oxygen regulator was originally developed for HG pilots, because a
lot of them need it! Perhaps the next seminar should include Pat McLaughlin of Mountain High.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Nicholas Kennedy]

While I never had the pleasure of meeting James Oroc, I know many of his gang.
I'm fairly sure he was well hydrated, on O2, had all the safety gear, had a plan ,was flying with a group, was very very experienced in BIG AIR, was living the dream; going XC in Nevada with friends on a booming day.
I was a Paraglider pilot.
While they have come a long way in safety and design, that fact of the matter is Paragliders do ALL sorts of bizarre incontrollable things, that even top rated pilots cannot control as James well knew and experienced. They are kept in place by very low pressure ram air. You are not physically attached to them, you are hanging by strings, very strong strings but strings never the less.
They suffer from collapses, half folds, line failure, Its a long list of crazy sh*t those things can do.
They often ball up in turbulence. Alot of pilots have 2 back up reserve chutes.
But there fun as hell to fly and very easy to learn. There very fun to thermal when their inflated.
For his friends and family I'm glad he was found.
Fly safe in 2021
Nick
T

[Ramy[_2_]]

Very well said Nick.
We are all in fact equally “crazy� for soaring, no matter if it s a PG, HG or sailplane, and have more or less the same chance of dying no matter how safe we believe we are.
The stats clearly shows that. All it takes is to be at the wrong place, the wrong time and the wrong decision, which can happen to any of us. The longer you fly, the higher your chances. I believe if we never aged and continued flying forever, it will eventually kill us....
As long as we understand the risk and willing to take it. I do.
Life without risk and adventure is just a bunch of birthdays strung together.

Ramy

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 6:59:09 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> While I never had the pleasure of meeting James Oroc, I know many of his gang.
> I'm fairly sure he was well hydrated, on O2, had all the safety gear, had a plan ,was flying with a group, was very very experienced in BIG AIR, was living the dream; going XC in Nevada with friends on a booming day.
> I was a Paraglider pilot.
> While they have come a long way in safety and design, that fact of the matter is Paragliders do ALL sorts of bizarre incontrollable things, that even top rated pilots cannot control as James well knew and experienced. They are kept in place by very low pressure ram air. You are not physically attached to them, you are hanging by strings, very strong strings but strings never the less.
> They suffer from collapses, half folds, line failure, Its a long list of crazy sh*t those things can do.
> They often ball up in turbulence. Alot of pilots have 2 back up reserve chutes.
> But there fun as hell to fly and very easy to learn. There very fun to thermal when their inflated.
> For his friends and family I'm glad he was found.
> Fly safe in 2021
> Nick
> T

[[email protected]]

> I believe if we never aged and continued flying forever, it will eventually kill us....
I believe if we age and continue flying it will kill us much sooner than that. This is highly controversial topic.. I imagine some irate responses here... FAA retirement age used to 60 and now relaxed to 65. Rought rule of thumb? I don't know what the right age is but it is probably different for each person. Question is, will each person know when it is time.

[Mark Mocho]

.. Question is, will each person know when it is time.

My father was a long-time pilot, and when he hit 60, he told me he started to carry a $100 bill in his wallet. It was for the first guy who told him it was time to hang it up and stop flying. Since he made the decision to quit on his own, he gave the $100 to the kids on the flight line who used to help him pull his Bonanza out of the hangar, fuel it and wash it. If I remember correctly, he gave several of these $100 bills out to more than just a few line kids.

[2G]

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 5:08:18 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> Yeah 500km was a bit of a stretch, but 300Km are not uncommon in many places.
> 100-200km are pretty common in the areas I fly. These are typically straight distance, not yo-yos.
> The point is that they actually fly further than many sailplane pilots in some of the places I fly, which is very respectful distance for a bag with less than 10:1 glide ratio.
>
> Ramy
> On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 10:10:03 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Often fly 300-500km? Often??? Sebastian Kayrouz just set the record of 501 in the US a couple months ago. Take a zero off that comment and you might be closer to the truth. I find it difficult to compare Paragliding and Hang gliding to sailplanes. Its really a different breed. That said i agree they are capable under the most specific conditions with very high skilled pilots.
> >
> > DC
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 1:22:05 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> > > Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
> > > Also the safety record of “these idiots� as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles� I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies. And most of them fly with trackers.
> > > Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.
> > >
> > > Ramy

Well, Ramy, I am happy to see you admit what you wrote isn't true. But that untruth was intended to disparage what I wrote. The accident investigation bears out my take on it far more than yours. This guy made improper modifications to his wing and flew it over gross, both of which contributed to his death. And he encountered extreme turbulence beyond the capabilities of this aircraft to handle, which could have been predicted. The definition of an idiot is "a foolish or stupid person." The accident details in this report definitely shows, at least to me, that James was either foolish or stupid or both.

Tom

[2G]

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 5:44:12 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Tango Eight wrote on 12/10/2020 3:59 AM:
> > On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 1:05:42 AM UTC-5, kenward1000 wrote:
> >> Recently sat in on a Zoom seminar about XC flying hang gliders in the Owens Valley, hosted by the SF Bay Area largest HG/PG club. The presenter is an experienced pilot. However several points he made, alarmed me. First he didn't recommend that anyone carry oxygen, as he doesn't, because he feels he doesn't get hypoxic. Second he claimed that he regularly flies above 18K', sometimes higher than 20K', w/o O2. I get hypoxic above 14K' in my LAK-12.. No discussion of MOAs, unaware of Procedure Alpha on the Whites. Disdained aircraft radios in favor of ham radios. I've flown the Owens several times in a HG, and the conditions encountered made me decide to get a glider rating and use the right tool for flying XC there. The thought of flying XC in a PG in the mountains just makes me shake my head. That's a hard NO for me.
> >
> > The presenter seems hypoxic at sea level.
> >
> > T8
> The Mountain High electronic oxygen regulator was originally developed for HG pilots, because a
> lot of them need it! Perhaps the next seminar should include Pat McLaughlin of Mountain High.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

This is the direct result of an unregulated dangerous hobby - any reasonable regulations would prohibit this. And I favor less regulation.

Tom

[R[_4_]]

Writes the foolish and stupid person who drives 80 mph and cheats on his taxes.
R

[gkemp]

> > I believe if we never aged and continued flying forever, it will eventually kill us....
> I believe if we age and continue flying it will kill us much sooner than that. This is highly controversial topic.. I imagine some irate responses here... FAA retirement age used to 60 and now relaxed to 65. Rought rule of thumb? I don't know what the right age is but it is probably different for each person. Question is, will each person know when it is

I started flying gliders at 30 and had determined when I turned 70 I would retire before a young instructor tapped me on the shoulder and said I needed to do some rides with him. So when I turned 70 after 4000 hours in 4 different sailplanes, I retired. Sat down and made a list of all my friends killed in glider accidents......15. At nearly 84 (1 month) I am still gazing wistfully at cloud streets forming over my house in Arizona.......but I am still gazing

Gary Kemp "NK"

[John Sinclair[_5_]]

> I started flying gliders at 30 and had determined when I turned 70 I would retire before a young instructor tapped me on the shoulder and said I needed to do some rides with him. So when I turned 70 after 4000 hours in 4 different sailplanes, I retired. Sat down and made a list of all my friends killed in glider accidents......15. At nearly 84 (1 month) I am still gazing wistfully at cloud streets forming over my house in Arizona.......but I am still gazing
>
> Gary Kemp "NK"

A point I would make about senior aviators would be to stay with the ship you have been flying. A friend of mine who was in his late 80’s was doing all right flying his LS-6. Then he decided to buy a new ship with an electric motor. It was clear to several of us that he just wasn’t up to the new technology and I told him so! He was killed flying his new ship, nobody knows exactly why, but I’d say he was a victim of the new technology?

Gary, you had great success flying your Nimbus-3 that required aggressive stick and rudder to make it do your bidding. Then you borrowed a Ventus to fly the Nationals.............the new bird wouldn’t tolerate any aggressive control inputs. I’d say you started questioning your piloting abilities, but it wasn’t you, it was the different ship?
BTW, your old bird is up for sale, still has NK on the tail!

JJ..........86 and sticking with everything I’m familiar with!

[gkemp]

On Saturday, December 12, 2020 at 8:45:14 AM UTC-7, John Sinclair wrote:
> > I started flying gliders at 30 and had determined when I turned 70 I would retire before a young instructor tapped me on the shoulder and said I needed to do some rides with him. So when I turned 70 after 4000 hours in 4 different sailplanes, I retired. Sat down and made a list of all my friends killed in glider accidents......15. At nearly 84 (1 month) I am still gazing wistfully at cloud streets forming over my house in Arizona.......but I am still gazing
> >
> > Gary Kemp "NK"
> A point I would make about senior aviators would be to stay with the ship you have been flying. A friend of mine who was in his late 80’s was doing all right flying his LS-6. Then he decided to buy a new ship with an electric motor. It was clear to several of us that he just wasn’t up to the new technology and I told him so! He was killed flying his new ship, nobody knows exactly why, but I’d say he was a victim of the new technology?
>
> Gary, you had great success flying your Nimbus-3 that required aggressive stick and rudder to make it do your bidding. Then you borrowed a Ventus to fly the Nationals.............the new bird wouldn’t tolerate any aggressive control inputs. I’d say you started questioning your piloting abilities, but it wasn’t you, it was the different ship?
> BTW, your old bird is up for sale, still has NK on the tail!
>
> JJ..........86 and sticking with everything I’m familiar with!
Thanks JJ, good advice, I had never really thought of that as a problem, but clearly there was something dramatically different with the Ventus, I of course thought it was me. btw I saw the ad for the Nimbus 3

NK

[BG[_4_]]

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 3:02:53 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > I believe if we never aged and continued flying forever, it will eventually kill us....
> I believe if we age and continue flying it will kill us much sooner than that.

After instructing for 34 years, the absolute worse part of that experience was reminding older and some younger with health problems, their flying days were over. The worse of the worse were those who were in denial and down right belligerent. They would work the system and try to find another instructor even another place to fly. When they ran out of places that would not let them fly, they bought a self launcher and the rest is history. All of this group are so self serving and could not give a damn about the negative impact on the community.

There are many high risk things that agree with the statement " I believe if we never aged and continued flying forever, it will eventually kill us..." Being around skydivers, surfers, pilots and rock climbers, I have lost handfuls of friends over the years. Sadly most in gliders..

You have to truly admire those have recognized the signs and choose to leave the world in a way we all respect. Yeager and Hoover comes to mind.

BG