Virga, rain, cloudsuck - how close do you get?

[ProfJ]

Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and speed.

So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do? Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone), how close would you get?

Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all times - just trying to calibrate risk.

[AS]

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 2:19:22 PM UTC-4, ProfJ wrote:
> Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and speed.
>
> So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do? Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone), how close would you get?
>
> Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all times - just trying to calibrate risk.

I flew with one of the local icons in Moriarty, NM a few years ago and he showed me the same effect. I did it since then a few times by myself with good success. Smooth, strong lift in light rain. Sounds almost counter-intuitive but it works. Not sure why, though.
However, I would have to caution against doing it, if there is already lightning activity visible.

Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

Not a meteorologist, but perhaps if you were between 2 rain clouds, what you thought was virga might have actually been wispy-like convergence clouds forming as the 2 different downwashes collide to generate lift. You could expect lift there, not a down-draft generated by virga (evaporating moisture cools). As for lift in rain, what is the wing-loading of a raindrop compared to your glider? The rain you ran into could have either been falling or rising depending on sink rate?

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 1:19:22 PM UTC-5, ProfJ wrote:
> Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and speed.
>
> So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do? Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone), how close would you get?
>
> Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all times - just trying to calibrate risk.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 3:41:30 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Not a meteorologist, but perhaps if you were between 2 rain clouds, what you thought was virga might have actually been wispy-like convergence clouds forming as the 2 different downwashes collide to generate lift. You could expect lift there, not a down-draft generated by virga (evaporating moisture cools). As for lift in rain, what is the wing-loading of a raindrop compared to your glider? The rain you ran into could have either been falling or rising depending on sink rate?
> On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 1:19:22 PM UTC-5, ProfJ wrote:
> > Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and speed.
> >
> > So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do? Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone), how close would you get?
> >
> > Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all times - just trying to calibrate risk.
Well I have been doing this for a long time and I never had good results with water on my glass wings! Just something about water and glass wings do not go well together, scotch goes much better with water. Now about that virga , yes, I head toward that area whenever I can. I wish I could post pics here of flying in or near thunder boomers here in Florida. Recently I had to cross two storm systems that looked like a concrete wall on both sides, I tucked and ran through two systems for about 20 miles or so, the lights were flashing all around me and I was along for the ride. Don't you just love flying in Florida in July!
On the good news side the weather here is looking better for this time of year, South Florida is dryer than mid and North. September and October will tell the story about our spring flying, as of now it looks promising, but you never know. Last year was sub par because of the December and January rains, hopefully we can have a great spring once again. So, come on down to the Treasure Coast and fly triangles and stay away from running up and down Hwy 27. Bob

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

ProfJ wrote on 9/1/2020 11:19 AM:
> Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and speed.
>
> So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do? Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone), how close would you get?
>
> Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all times - just trying to calibrate risk.
>
Be sure it's virga... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObYRYF3d38Y

I'm kidding, a little bit, but I often find virga that is in sinking air. I
usually find lift in the edges of virga, particularly the downwind side. The lift
has always been weak to moderate - a few knots at best - nothing like you describe.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

While considering ProfJ's question, maybe it would be a good idea to read or re-read the excellent "Into the Bowels of Darkness" by Kempton Izuno as a way to become fully enlightened on the subject of flying into or near rain clouds. Check it out starting on page 12 of the 12/2005 edition of the PASCO newsletter. https://www.pacificsoaring.org/westwind/2005_12_WestWind.pdf

Robert

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 1:19:22 PM UTC-5, ProfJ wrote:
> Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and speed.
>
> So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do? Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone), how close would you get?
>
> Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all times - just trying to calibrate risk.

[Chris Wedgwood[_2_]]

I would strongly advise avoiding lightning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDhl5dOd4_0

[Dee[_2_]]

ProfJ- Normally (never?) you won't get lift under virga, only a downdraft accelerated by evaporative cooling. Virga descends from cloud, so I suspect what you saw between rain clouds were the vertical wisps marking conversion updraft and condensation created by the opposing winds. The way you navigated through this was the correct thing to do. The Kempton Izuno article concerned a much more powerful cumulonimbus system that involved a far more risky and avoidable situation. Here's a video that contains relevant cloud formations seen in conversion e.g. @ 5:15 near the glider's vent). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_QplJI30SU

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 1:19:22 PM UTC-5, ProfJ wrote:
> Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and speed.
>
> So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do? Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone), how close would you get?
>
> Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all times - just trying to calibrate risk.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 2:40:57 PM UTC-4, Dee wrote:
> ProfJ- Normally (never?) you won't get lift under virga, only a downdraft accelerated by evaporative cooling. Virga descends from cloud, so I suspect what you saw between rain clouds were the vertical wisps marking conversion updraft and condensation created by the opposing winds. The way you navigated through this was the correct thing to do. The Kempton Izuno article concerned a much more powerful cumulonimbus system that involved a far more risky and avoidable situation. Here's a video that contains relevant cloud formations seen in conversion e.g. @ 5:15 near the glider's vent). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_QplJI30SU


"Convergence". Otto Korrekt strikes again?

[[email protected]]

ProfJ- Normally (never?) you won't get lift under virga, only a downdraft accelerated by evaporative cooling. Virga descends from cloud, so I suspect what you saw between rain clouds were the vertical wisps marking convergence updraft and condensation created by the opposing winds. The way you navigated through this was the correct thing to do. The Kempton Izuno article concerned a much more powerful cumulonimbus system that involved a far more risky and avoidable situation. Here's a video that contains relevant cloud formations seen during convergence (e.g. @ 5:15 near the glider's vent). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_QplJI30SU

(Spell-chick by Moshe)

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 1:19:22 PM UTC-5, ProfJ wrote:
> Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and speed.
>
> So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do? Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone), how close would you get?
>
> Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all times - just trying to calibrate risk.

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

One important point, learned the hard way. You don't want to push over to 110 knots, still climbing like crazy, push to VNE, still climbing and clouds approaching, and THEN want to open the spoilers. Obviously you don't want to jam open the spoilers at VNE, too many wings have fallen off that way. And if you pull back to a sensible speed, you gain 2000' in the zoom. Pull the spoilers while still sensibly away from the cloud! In my case, I was lucky enough to not go in to the cloud, but others have not been so lucky.

John Cochrane BB

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

John Cochrane wrote on 9/2/2020 12:19 PM:
> One important point, learned the hard way. You don't want to push over to 110 knots, still climbing like crazy, push to VNE, still climbing and clouds approaching, and THEN want to open the spoilers. Obviously you don't want to jam open the spoilers at VNE, too many wings have fallen off that way. And if you pull back to a sensible speed, you gain 2000' in the zoom. Pull the spoilers while still sensibly away from the cloud! In my case, I was lucky enough to not go in to the cloud, but others have not been so lucky.
>
> John Cochrane BB

Your recommendation is a very good one, but it's my understanding our gliders are
designed and tested to withstand opening the spoilers at Vne. You should avoid
abrupt opening above maneuvering speed (perhaps that is what you meant), and the G
load before opening should be lower than the maximum allowed at Vne - check the
handbook.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Matthew Scutter]

Designed and tested, well maybe, but I got some nice bruises from my straps across my chest in the process of making the same mistake as John. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRH5tf4iuKk

The IGC log showed the lift peaked at 45kts. Airbrakes still didn't induce a descent, the only escape was out the side. If you're still climbing at +5kts while cruising 100kts, it's time to make an exit plan because the 'corner' comes quicker than you expect. I'd done it loads of times before and the lift had never been strong enough that it 'overpowered' VNE... until that time...

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 10:51:36 PM UTC+2, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> John Cochrane wrote on 9/2/2020 12:19 PM:
> > One important point, learned the hard way. You don't want to push over to 110 knots, still climbing like crazy, push to VNE, still climbing and clouds approaching, and THEN want to open the spoilers. Obviously you don't want to jam open the spoilers at VNE, too many wings have fallen off that way. And if you pull back to a sensible speed, you gain 2000' in the zoom. Pull the spoilers while still sensibly away from the cloud! In my case, I was lucky enough to not go in to the cloud, but others have not been so lucky.
> >
> > John Cochrane BB
> Your recommendation is a very good one, but it's my understanding our gliders are
> designed and tested to withstand opening the spoilers at Vne. You should avoid
> abrupt opening above maneuvering speed (perhaps that is what you meant), and the G
> load before opening should be lower than the maximum allowed at Vne - check the
> handbook.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

I find lift in rain or virga about 50% of the time. Lift is nearby if it is not in the rain. Climbing is usually slower in wet lift because the rain does drag air downward with it, it cools the air, and the glider's performance is degraded. One should have a plan on escaping out of a microburst. I am convinced that microbursts exist in clear air, away from clouds, in which case it is difficult to determine which way to run because the downdraft is invisible, making them scarier than the mature Cumulus kind.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 11:19:22 AM UTC-7, ProfJ wrote:
> Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and speed.
>
> So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do? Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone), how close would you get?
>
> Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all times - just trying to calibrate risk.

I've flown a LOT in the Great Basin (Ely, Parowan) and the advice of one of my more successful soaring mentors,Carl Herold, has proven to me far more often true more than false. He advised to avoid Virga if the temperature at your current altitude is warmer than freezing and fly directly toward and through the snow virga where the temperatures at your altitude is colder than freezing. That air will be rising! I have no idea why this works, but it has proven to be a successful strategy far more often than not.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 10:49:25 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 11:19:22 AM UTC-7, ProfJ wrote:
> > Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and speed.
> >
> > So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do? Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone), how close would you get?
> >
> > Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all times - just trying to calibrate risk.
>
> I've flown a LOT in the Great Basin (Ely, Parowan) and the advice of one of my more successful soaring mentors,Carl Herold, has proven to me far more often true more than false. He advised to avoid Virga if the temperature at your current altitude is warmer than freezing and fly directly toward and through the snow virga where the temperatures at your altitude is colder than freezing. That air will be rising! I have no idea why this works, but it has proven to be a successful strategy far more often than not.

I've picked up 1.5" of virga snow on the leading edges in July at FL170 in Colorado. So flying across the band is a good idea to minimize accumulation. Lift was fine and didn't seem to affect the stability of the glider, LAK12, though I was concerned at the time. Sublimated after a few minutes back in clear air.

Frank

[BobW]

On 9/6/2020 7:39 AM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 10:49:25 PM UTC-6,
> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 11:19:22 AM UTC-7, ProfJ wrote:
>>> Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck
>>> between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I
>>> went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked
>>> rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had
>>> the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either
>>> (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and
>>> speed.
>>>
>>> So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into
>>> virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do?
>>> Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone),
>>> how close would you get?
>>>
>>> Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all
>>> times - just trying to calibrate risk.
>>
>> I've flown a LOT in the Great Basin (Ely, Parowan) and the advice of one
>> of my more successful soaring mentors,Carl Herold, has proven to me far
>> more often true more than false. He advised to avoid Virga if the
>> temperature at your current altitude is warmer than freezing and fly
>> directly toward and through the snow virga where the temperatures at your
>> altitude is colder than freezing. That air will be rising! I have no idea
>> why this works, but it has proven to be a successful strategy far more
>> often than not.
>
> I've picked up 1.5" of virga snow on the leading edges in July at FL170 in
> Colorado. So flying across the band is a good idea to minimize
> accumulation. Lift was fine and didn't seem to affect the stability of the
> glider, LAK12, though I was concerned at the time. Sublimated after a few
> minutes back in clear air.

IMO this is the sort of fundamental question/scenario every thoughtful
glider-guider should-oughta more-wisely ponder *before* encountering in the
wild than after, and in that sense RAS - with all the faults and virtues found
in humankind - can be a useful resource. As with all free inputs...chose
wisely your sources of perceived wisdom. :-)

For the record, 100% of my virga experience comes from above Colorado. Whether
or not it's "a lot" I really can't judge...but almost all of it has been some
combination of: fun, "fun", of considerable-knollich-gained content. While
it's difficult to make defensible sweeping generalizations about my
experiences, I distinctly remember a few instances.

I remember the first time I gained altitude while flying through a band of it
(of the fine mist sort, judging from the canopy) located between me and where
I wanted/"needed" to go. One working conclusion - me being from the
philosophical school of "If it happens it must be possible." - was along the
lines of: evidently air can be rising faster than "water-based-'stuff' can be
falling." (Duh!) The notion hadn't occurred to me, prior.

I remember the first time I had a "Frank's experience" (see above). I picked
up ~0.5" rime ice along both leading edges while descending through a rotor
cloud over the foothills as part of executing my version of moving from a
region of "reducing safety/WX margins" to one of "expanding safety/WX margins"
west of Fort Collins. Happened amazingly rapidly...and wasn't a serious
concern because I was in a landing-flapped-only ship (i.e. no concern about
IMC spiral diving issues), and knew that there were thousands of feet of
terrain clearance betwixt rotor and rocks. "For fun" and out of curiosity,
once beneath the rotor, I "de-flapped" and performed some stalls just because
I could...with no detectable effects upon nominal stall speeds/characteristics
- from which I concluded "not a darned thing in general terms!" The rime
sublimated within minutes of reaching clear air.

Perhaps more to the point(s?) of the original post/questions, it may be of
more enduring "takeaway interest" to ponder the "hows and wherefores" of
actually reaching a situation where Joe Glider Pilot might choose to seriously
consider an IMC descent as "desirable." CO's mountains between (say) Denver
and Fort Collins, while rising abruptly from the Great Plains, don't do so in
the manner of (say) the Sierras or those of Nevada's basin and range
mountains. They instead are crumply little things for tens of miles extending
westward in a disorganized, generally rising, mass to eventually become the
continental divide (between Gulf of Mexico/Pacific drainages), which in that
region is the primary wave generation source, generally some 25-40 miles west
of the mountains/plains interface.

On "non-hydraulic jump" days - by far more common than days of "single monster
waves" - such as this one was, it's not uncommon for the tertiary rotor to
still be located above the front range crumplies. I no longer remember if I
was wave soaring above the secondary or the tertiary rotor band, but because
the day was one of those CO days "of significant moisture" (not rare but not
uncommon, either), I'd intentionally decided to run N/S (from Boulder) above
the foothills rather than explore vertically - BTDT years before and got it
out of my system - by way of a) learning more about those sort of wave
systems, and b) cloud/terrain avoidance. In short, a nod toward WX/terrain
conservatism. The farther north I got, the cloudier it became, until I reached
my personal comfort/convenience limits, and my "what to do next?" choices
seemed to be: 1) execute the time-tested 180-degree turn; 2) push my
convenience limits by continuing north above the rotor (no pre-arranged
retrieve crew); 3) retreat east (to clearer skies and almost guaranteed
convective lift lower down).

What I chose to do was a flavor of option 3) (multiple flavors existed), the
one most interesting to me, then. Being off the descent routes into Denver'a
A/P just there and the day not being one where "general aviation types"
would've been out fun-flying (as opposed to IMC flight plan flying), I chose
the direct vertical descent over that of doing so either upwind/downwind of
the rotor band. (I hereby formally apologize to every gen-aviation pilot who
was put at risk by my callous disregard for their IMC safety, and note that no
evidence of my intentional FAR-busting exists in any of my logbooks. I think
some statute of limitation likely applies, anyway!) In hindsight, I considered
my choices Most Eminently Personally Satisfying and Suitably Educational. And,
no, I would NOT have made the same choice had I not've been flying a
landing-flap-only equipped sailplane.

In "Kentucky windage" terms, I'd guess more than half my virga encounters have
resulted in net altitude gains, with a few quite - QUITE! - the opposite.
Kinda-sorta related, none of my 3 microburst encounters involved any
obviously-nearby virga.

So how close do you get? Channeling Dirty Harry...how lucky do you feel, punk?

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 11:19:22 AM UTC-7, ProfJ wrote:
> Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and speed.
>
> So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do? Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone), how close would you get?
>
> Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all times - just trying to calibrate risk.

What John and Matthew said. It's good advice. My rule is to pull spoilers if I have to go over 90 kts to avoid being sucked higher than comfortable. Big wings and cloud suck can get out of hand in a hurry. Even with spoilers out, there's no guarantee of staying out of the clouds. Give those big clouds the respect they deserve.

Craig
JN

[[email protected]]

Some instructors don't think it's a big deal flying directly into IMC so......whatever.

(No, I'm not making this up and no, I don't mean a cloud. I'm instrument rated, I know wtf a cloud looks like and I mean no visible horizon, no view of the ground, no, I don' t mean in an aircraft certified for flight into IMC under IFR.)

[Ed Downham[_3_]]

My experiences mirror that of others, in that much below the freezing level, virga is evaporating fast and causing an accelerating downdraft that sensibly you’d keep clear of. When the sky gets really big, airbrakes seem to be a very minor part of the equation, so the exit plan is best made before you get there.

Having said that, some of my longest and most fulfilling flights have been on days where the atmosphere feels like it’s boiling throughout its whole depth. All that energy...

[ProfJ]

On Tuesday, 1 September 2020 at 12:19:22 UTC-6, ProfJ wrote:
> Typing this with my fireproof suit on...last weekend I tried to duck between two rainy cumulus clouds on my glide back to home base. As I went through the gap it became filled with virga and I was sucked rapidly upwards, probably would have been about 10m/s if I had not had the nose well down. This was not tranquil, but not terrifying either (I was about 3000 ft below cloudbase) and added some useful height and speed.
>
> So here's the question: would you (do you?) deliberately head into virga if you needed the boost, or is this a truly dumb thing to do? Same for rain clouds (assuming you are in updraft not downdraft zone), how close would you get?
>
> Not looking for legal technicalities here, this was good VFR at all times - just trying to calibrate risk.

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I guess I was wrong calling this virga (I called it that because it was rain which did not appear to be reaching the ground), it was more likely just regular rain in an updraft, which may have been a convergence updraft as suggested in the replies. BTW I was interested how many responses related experiences in the Southwest USA (NM, CO, UT), I was flying on the West Slope in Colorado at the time so maybe it's a function of the crazy skies we have here. The consensus seems to be: proceed with caution, unless there is lightning, in which case avoid like the plague (a phrase which has admittedly lost a lot of its meaning lately)..

[BobW]

On 9/8/2020 3:29 PM, ProfJ wrote:
<snip...>
>
> The consensus seems to be: proceed with caution, unless there is lightning...

That was kinda my general thinking even *before* Ken Sorenson's (I think it
was) Moriarty misadventure with lightning.

In electrical-charge terms, my closest (known, hyuk hyuk) encounter came while
returning to Boulder from the ENE, through light virga between I-25 east of
Longmont, and Longmont (some 8-ish miles west). Began to hear some
previously-never-heard "clicking type noises" while running along through some
light rain keeping a wary eye on airmass motion "just-in-case." Puzzling, it
was, until something INside my brain clicked...about the time my forearm hairs
began to stand up. Static electricity charge build-up on the canopy? Slowing
from 65 knots to min-sink resulted in arm hairs laying back down and clicking
noises halting. Hmmm...

Perhaps tempting fate (or a form of curiosity maybe *actually* killing that
cat!), increasing speed again, brought the return of "clicking" and vertical
arm hairs...which well and truly satisfied my curiosity, just then & there!
Thenceforth, I was content to fly slowly enough to avoid the apparent charge
build-up on the canopy associated with both the "clicking" and vertical
forearm hairs, despite the increased time-exposure to the rainfall. Happily,
getting back home proved to not be an issue...

Then there was the early morning when - from an utterly cloudless sky, while
doing something now long-forgotten in the "puttering vein" - a single bolt of
lightning flashed/struck nearby...as-in well under a mile distant (I
habitually count seconds until the associated-toonder's heard). If it hadn't
startled/scared me so much, I mighta disbelieved what I'd heard...had I not
actually seen the bolt from the corner of my eye. *Almost* unbelievable!

Bob W.

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[Mike Reid]

Sounds like you encountered St. Elmo's Fire, which is quite common when flying through dry precipitation like snow or ice crystals. If it had been dark, you would have seen the sparks to go along with the clicking sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7huPWGX-yz0

Mike

[Mike the Strike]

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 5:36:24 AM UTC+1, Mike Reid wrote:
> Sounds like you encountered St. Elmo's Fire, which is quite common when flying through dry precipitation like snow or ice crystals. If it had been dark, you would have seen the sparks to go along with the clicking sound.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7huPWGX-yz0
>
> Mike
Yes indeed, flying a glider (or any other aircraft for that matter) under a charged rain cloud can result in an electrical discharge. Often known as point discharge, it might be heard as clicks (from sparks) or as a buzzing on your radio. More intense discharges produce the glow of St. Elmo's fire.. In my Discus 2, it would make the hairs on my leg near the release cable stand on end! While not dangerous (except perhaps to sensitive avionics), I always saw it as a hint to go fly somewhere else.

Most lightning discharges to aircraft are fairly minor ones triggered by the plane itself flying through cloud or rain. It's rare for an aircraft in flight to connect with a more energetic ground flash, although that is exactly what happened to the famous English glider incident mentioned in an earlier post. That glider ended up forming part of the path for a rather energetic positive ground flash and expanding air or water vapor from the discharge inside the wings blew them apart rather dramatically. If you avoid flying in cloud or the rain directly under a thundercloud, the chances of a lightning strike are small.

Mike

[Michael Opitz]

At 11:09 09 September 2020, Mike the Strike wrote:
>On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 5:36:24 AM UTC+1, Mike Reid
wrote:
If you avoid flying in cloud or the rain directly under a thundercloud,
the chances of a lightning strike are small.

Mike

> If you talk to Ken Sorenson, I think he might disagree. You can
dig up his report about getting hit at a USA Standard Class Nationals
in Moriarty a number of years ago. IIRC, he was well underneath
and in front of a cloud (in the clear) that didn't even have rain yet.

RO

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Mike the Strike wrote on 9/9/2020 4:09 AM:
> On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 5:36:24 AM UTC+1, Mike Reid wrote:
>> Sounds like you encountered St. Elmo's Fire, which is quite common when flying through dry precipitation like snow or ice crystals. If it had been dark, you would have seen the sparks to go along with the clicking sound.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7huPWGX-yz0
>>
>> Mike
> Yes indeed, flying a glider (or any other aircraft for that matter) under a charged rain cloud can result in an electrical discharge. Often known as point discharge, it might be heard as clicks (from sparks) or as a buzzing on your radio. More intense discharges produce the glow of St. Elmo's fire.. In my Discus 2, it would make the hairs on my leg near the release cable stand on end! While not dangerous (except perhaps to sensitive avionics), I always saw it as a hint to go fly somewhere else.
>
> Most lightning discharges to aircraft are fairly minor ones triggered by the plane itself flying through cloud or rain. It's rare for an aircraft in flight to connect with a more energetic ground flash, although that is exactly what happened to the famous English glider incident mentioned in an earlier post. That glider ended up forming part of the path for a rather energetic positive ground flash and expanding air or water vapor from the discharge inside the wings blew them apart rather dramatically. If you avoid flying in cloud or the rain directly under a thundercloud, the chances of a lightning strike are small.
>
> Mike
>
Does "the Strike" refer to baseball, labor unrest, or perhaps - lightning?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Steve Koerner]

> Does "the Strike" refer to baseball, labor unrest, or perhaps - lightning?

Yes, Lightning. Mike is a PhD physicist who spent most of his career studying and consulting on lightning matters. He's often hired to provide expert witness on interesting litigation related to lightning damage and injuries.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 10:36:24 PM UTC-6, Mike Reid wrote:
> Sounds like you encountered St. Elmo's Fire, which is quite common when flying through dry precipitation like snow or ice crystals. If it had been dark, you would have seen the sparks to go along with the clicking sound.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7huPWGX-yz0
>
> Mike

Mark Keene recently posted a great video of this on his Facebook page.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 6:39:47 PM UTC-6, BobW wrote:
> On 9/8/2020 3:29 PM, ProfJ wrote:
> <snip...>
> >
> > The consensus seems to be: proceed with caution, unless there is lightning...
>
> That was kinda my general thinking even *before* Ken Sorenson's (I think it
> was) Moriarty misadventure with lightning.
>
> In electrical-charge terms, my closest (known, hyuk hyuk) encounter came while
> returning to Boulder from the ENE, through light virga between I-25 east of
> Longmont, and Longmont (some 8-ish miles west). Began to hear some
> previously-never-heard "clicking type noises" while running along through some
> light rain keeping a wary eye on airmass motion "just-in-case." Puzzling, it
> was, until something INside my brain clicked...about the time my forearm hairs
> began to stand up. Static electricity charge build-up on the canopy? Slowing
> from 65 knots to min-sink resulted in arm hairs laying back down and clicking
> noises halting. Hmmm...
>
> Perhaps tempting fate (or a form of curiosity maybe *actually* killing that
> cat!), increasing speed again, brought the return of "clicking" and vertical
> arm hairs...which well and truly satisfied my curiosity, just then & there!
> Thenceforth, I was content to fly slowly enough to avoid the apparent charge
> build-up on the canopy associated with both the "clicking" and vertical
> forearm hairs, despite the increased time-exposure to the rainfall. Happily,
> getting back home proved to not be an issue...
>
> Then there was the early morning when - from an utterly cloudless sky, while
> doing something now long-forgotten in the "puttering vein" - a single bolt of
> lightning flashed/struck nearby...as-in well under a mile distant (I
> habitually count seconds until the associated-toonder's heard). If it hadn't
> startled/scared me so much, I mighta disbelieved what I'd heard...had I not
> actually seen the bolt from the corner of my eye. *Almost* unbelievable!
>
> Bob W.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com

Several years ago, Bob and his bride were flying our old 2-33 downwind at Owl Canyon about 1000ft agl when a lightning bolt descended from above and forked into two bolts, one fore and one aft of the 2-33, that continued to the ground. Among my more memorable of soaring sights. Bob, his bride, and the 2-33 are all still in service.

Frank Whiteley