Human factors RECKLESSNESS

[private]

My apologies to the Usenet police re: cross posting but



I am in mourning for friends lost, and in sympathy for the families they
left alone.



This week we have seen behavior that can only be described as reckless.



A man posts video of a poorly performed roll in a non aerobatic aircraft
without regard for ...............to say nothing about his instructor
PARTICIPATING. Two survivors and a questionable aircraft



CFIT A multiple champion pilot losses control while reaching for a $100 side
bet.

One fatal.



911?, fuel exhaustion, over water, without flotation, at night. One
(probable) fatal.



I am tempted to ask why? where are we failing? are we glorifying
recklessness? Are we truly self destructive (cigarettes, food, alcohol,
pollution etc)? what can we do? but



I know that we must each find the answers within ourselves and to strive for
the personal situational control to handle these situations and temptations.
Training helps, as do mentors. (Thank you Dudley, Gene etal)



I am sick of hearing "he died doing something he loved". It just sounds
trite.



They are always way too young.



My condolences and sympathy to all mourning family and friends.

[NW_PILOT]

"private" > wrote in message
news:hQ7ce.1148571$8l.556991@pd7tw1no...
> My apologies to the Usenet police re: cross posting but
>
>
>
> I am in mourning for friends lost, and in sympathy for the families they
> left alone.
>
>
>
> This week we have seen behavior that can only be described as reckless.
>
>
>
> A man posts video of a poorly performed roll in a non aerobatic aircraft
> without regard for ...............to say nothing about his instructor
> PARTICIPATING. Two survivors and a questionable aircraft
>
>
>
> CFIT A multiple champion pilot losses control while reaching for a $100
side
> bet.
>
> One fatal.
>
>
>
> 911?, fuel exhaustion, over water, without flotation, at night. One
> (probable) fatal.
>
>
>
> I am tempted to ask why? where are we failing? are we glorifying
> recklessness? Are we truly self destructive (cigarettes, food, alcohol,
> pollution etc)? what can we do? but
>
>
>
> I know that we must each find the answers within ourselves and to strive
for
> the personal situational control to handle these situations and
temptations.
> Training helps, as do mentors. (Thank you Dudley, Gene etal)
>
>
>
> I am sick of hearing "he died doing something he loved". It just sounds
> trite.
>
>
>
> They are always way too young.
>
>
>
> My condolences and sympathy to all mourning family and friends.
>
>

Ok what about the people you don't here about all the fools driving cars
talking on cell phone, driving while under the influence of a mind altering
substance like Prozac and the many other pansy pills. "Ohh dont for get
about the other drugs people use"

"You know Moving any faster than a walking pace can be potentially fatal!"

I would not say that we are glorifying recklessness, if it wasn't for people
you call reckless we would still be living in caves. Most of us that are in
to flying or other extreme hobbies have a huge respect for life but also
have that need for that adrenalin. I my-self wake up every day and am very
thankful that I don't have to stick a needle in my arm or suck something up
my nose to get that rush, I have many many other activity's like flying to
get that feeling.

You will Die one day that's a fact of Life!! You cannot hide from it! You
cannot run from it! So embrace the Life you have been given and enjoy it
with every breath you take because you may never know when it may be your
last.

[Mark Hansen]

On 4/28/2005 09:45, NW_PILOT wrote:

[ snip ]

>>
>>
>
> Ok what about the people you don't here about all the fools driving cars
> talking on cell phone, driving while under the influence of a mind altering
> substance like Prozac and the many other pansy pills. "Ohh dont for get
> about the other drugs people use"
>
> "You know Moving any faster than a walking pace can be potentially fatal!"
>
> I would not say that we are glorifying recklessness, if it wasn't for people
> you call reckless we would still be living in caves.

Oh, so you're making things better for the rest of humanity.

I guess we should thank you then...

> Most of us that are in
> to flying or other extreme hobbies have a huge respect for life but also
> have that need for that adrenalin. I my-self wake up every day and am very
> thankful that I don't have to stick a needle in my arm or suck something up
> my nose to get that rush, I have many many other activity's like flying to
> get that feeling.
>
> You will Die one day that's a fact of Life!! You cannot hide from it! You
> cannot run from it! So embrace the Life you have been given and enjoy it
> with every breath you take because you may never know when it may be your
> last.
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[NW_PILOT]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
> On 4/28/2005 09:45, NW_PILOT wrote:
>
> [ snip ]
>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Ok what about the people you don't here about all the fools driving cars
> > talking on cell phone, driving while under the influence of a mind
altering
> > substance like Prozac and the many other pansy pills. "Ohh dont for get
> > about the other drugs people use"
> >
> > "You know Moving any faster than a walking pace can be potentially
fatal!"
> >
> > I would not say that we are glorifying recklessness, if it wasn't for
people
> > you call reckless we would still be living in caves.
>
> Oh, so you're making things better for the rest of humanity.
>
> I guess we should thank you then...

Nope, don't thank me I have not done anything for humanity.

Who were them 2 brothers that invented the airplane????? they were called
crazy ect. if they attempted what they did 200 years earlier they would have
been hanged or beheaded. What about the people that got on boats to prove
the earth was round? And many others that you should thank.

[Dudley Henriques]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
>
> "private" > wrote in message
> news:hQ7ce.1148571$8l.556991@pd7tw1no...
>> My apologies to the Usenet police re: cross posting but
>>
>>
>>
>> I am in mourning for friends lost, and in sympathy for the families they
>> left alone.
>>
>>
>>
>> This week we have seen behavior that can only be described as reckless.
>>
>>
>>
>> A man posts video of a poorly performed roll in a non aerobatic aircraft
>> without regard for ...............to say nothing about his instructor
>> PARTICIPATING. Two survivors and a questionable aircraft
>>
>>
>>
>> CFIT A multiple champion pilot losses control while reaching for a $100
> side
>> bet.
>>
>> One fatal.
>>
>>
>>
>> 911?, fuel exhaustion, over water, without flotation, at night. One
>> (probable) fatal.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am tempted to ask why? where are we failing? are we glorifying
>> recklessness? Are we truly self destructive (cigarettes, food, alcohol,
>> pollution etc)? what can we do? but
>>
>>
>>
>> I know that we must each find the answers within ourselves and to strive
> for
>> the personal situational control to handle these situations and
> temptations.
>> Training helps, as do mentors. (Thank you Dudley, Gene etal)
>>
>>
>>
>> I am sick of hearing "he died doing something he loved". It just sounds
>> trite.
>>
>>
>>
>> They are always way too young.
>>
>>
>>
>> My condolences and sympathy to all mourning family and friends.
>>
>>
>
> Ok what about the people you don't here about all the fools driving cars
> talking on cell phone, driving while under the influence of a mind
> altering
> substance like Prozac and the many other pansy pills. "Ohh dont for get
> about the other drugs people use"
>
> "You know Moving any faster than a walking pace can be potentially fatal!"
>
> I would not say that we are glorifying recklessness, if it wasn't for
> people
> you call reckless we would still be living in caves. Most of us that are
> in
> to flying or other extreme hobbies have a huge respect for life but also
> have that need for that adrenalin. I my-self wake up every day and am very
> thankful that I don't have to stick a needle in my arm or suck something
> up
> my nose to get that rush, I have many many other activity's like flying to
> get that feeling.
>
> You will Die one day that's a fact of Life!! You cannot hide from it! You
> cannot run from it! So embrace the Life you have been given and enjoy it
> with every breath you take because you may never know when it may be your
> last.

Good God......is this REALLY your conception of flying? If it is, it sure
isn't mine or anyone I know and respect!!!!
:-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)

[NW_PILOT]

"Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "private" > wrote in message
> > news:hQ7ce.1148571$8l.556991@pd7tw1no...
> >> My apologies to the Usenet police re: cross posting but
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I am in mourning for friends lost, and in sympathy for the families
they
> >> left alone.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> This week we have seen behavior that can only be described as reckless.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> A man posts video of a poorly performed roll in a non aerobatic
aircraft
> >> without regard for ...............to say nothing about his instructor
> >> PARTICIPATING. Two survivors and a questionable aircraft
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> CFIT A multiple champion pilot losses control while reaching for a $100
> > side
> >> bet.
> >>
> >> One fatal.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 911?, fuel exhaustion, over water, without flotation, at night. One
> >> (probable) fatal.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I am tempted to ask why? where are we failing? are we glorifying
> >> recklessness? Are we truly self destructive (cigarettes, food, alcohol,
> >> pollution etc)? what can we do? but
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I know that we must each find the answers within ourselves and to
strive
> > for
> >> the personal situational control to handle these situations and
> > temptations.
> >> Training helps, as do mentors. (Thank you Dudley, Gene etal)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I am sick of hearing "he died doing something he loved". It just
sounds
> >> trite.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> They are always way too young.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> My condolences and sympathy to all mourning family and friends.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Ok what about the people you don't here about all the fools driving cars
> > talking on cell phone, driving while under the influence of a mind
> > altering
> > substance like Prozac and the many other pansy pills. "Ohh dont for get
> > about the other drugs people use"
> >
> > "You know Moving any faster than a walking pace can be potentially
fatal!"
> >
> > I would not say that we are glorifying recklessness, if it wasn't for
> > people
> > you call reckless we would still be living in caves. Most of us that are
> > in
> > to flying or other extreme hobbies have a huge respect for life but also
> > have that need for that adrenalin. I my-self wake up every day and am
very
> > thankful that I don't have to stick a needle in my arm or suck something
> > up
> > my nose to get that rush, I have many many other activity's like flying
to
> > get that feeling.
> >
> > You will Die one day that's a fact of Life!! You cannot hide from it!
You
> > cannot run from it! So embrace the Life you have been given and enjoy it
> > with every breath you take because you may never know when it may be
your
> > last.
>
> Good God......is this REALLY your conception of flying? If it is, it sure
> isn't mine or anyone I know and respect!!!!
> :-)
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
> dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
> (take out the trash :-)
>
>

No it is my concept of life. Plain in simple lifeis short! You never know
how long you have. So live it like every day is your last.

[Smutny]

Dude, you really need to step back and take a good look at what you're
exhibiting here.

Aerobatic pilots are already often viewed upon as 'daredevils' or
'reckless' from both the non-flying public and many of the
straight-and-level crowd. What we don't need are diatribes like yours
to attempt validation at what we do.

I'm a 'G-junkie' and love aerobatics. I try to go up every sunny day.
And each time I follow the basic rules of acro:

=B7 Use equipment designed for the task
=B7 Wear a parachute
=B7 Obey airspace restrictions (airways & controlled airspace)
=B7 Obey altitude minimums (both the FAA's and mine)

Last Saturday after the Skagit Airshow I gave a guy his first acro
ride. He is a pilot and wanted to try a couple maneuvers just to say he
did. He ham-handed the aileron roll and we landed with +5/-4 on the
g-meter. And we walked away because ALL of the above rules were
adheared to.

Check that attitude and get some proper training in a proper acro
aircraft if you want to continue to enjoy aerobatics. Being safe
doesn't mean being boring.

-j-

[[email protected]]

NW_Pilot,
I totally agree that life is short. I also try to live everyday as
if it was my last but I try to make sure that other lives are not at
risk in my pursuit of happiness. I also do everything that I can to
ensure that I can wake up the next morning to enjoy whatever time that
I have left on this earth.
From what I have read so far, no one has criticized your decision
to take up aerobatic flying be it rolling, spinning or whatever. The
concern was with the use of inappropriate equipment (a non aerobat 150)
and the potential risk of other lives (unless you and your instructor
chose a totally unpopulated area for this practice).

[[email protected]]

NW_Pilot,
I totally agree that life is short. I also try to live everyday as
if it was my last but I try to make sure that other lives are not at
risk in my pursuit of happiness. I also do everything that I can to
ensure that I can wake up the next morning to enjoy whatever time that
I have left on this earth.
From what I have read so far, no one has criticized your decision
to take up aerobatic flying be it rolling, spinning or whatever. The
concern was with the use of inappropriate equipment (a non aerobat 150)
and the potential risk of other lives (unless you and your instructor
chose a totally unpopulated area for this practice).

[[email protected]]

NW_Pilot,
I totally agree that life is short. I also try to live everyday as
if it was my last but I try to make sure that other lives are not at
risk in my pursuit of happiness. I also do everything that I can to
ensure that I can wake up the next morning to enjoy whatever time that
I have left on this earth.
From what I have read so far, no one has criticized your decision
to take up aerobatic flying be it rolling, spinning or whatever. The
concern was with the use of inappropriate equipment (a non aerobat 150)
and the potential risk of other lives (unless you and your instructor
chose a totally unpopulated area for this practice).

[B S D Chapman]

On 28 Apr 2005 10:44:16 -0700,
> wrote:

> NW_Pilot,
> I totally agree that life is short. I also try to live everyday as
> if it was my last but I try to make sure that other lives are not at
> risk in my pursuit of happiness. I also do everything that I can to
> ensure that I can wake up the next morning to enjoy whatever time that
> I have left on this earth.
> From what I have read so far, no one has criticized your decision
> to take up aerobatic flying be it rolling, spinning or whatever. The
> concern was with the use of inappropriate equipment (a non aerobat 150)
> and the potential risk of other lives (unless you and your instructor
> chose a totally unpopulated area for this practice).
>

Couldn't give a toss about the lives of the people in the aircraft.
I'm ****ed off with him for putting the aircraft in to a situation that
will, over time, over-stress it, potentially killing someone totally
innocent in months or years time.



--

'It is rumoured that his last words were, "Watch this..."'
Duke Elegant
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117465

[B S D Chapman]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:21:07 -0700, NW_PILOT > wrote:

> Who were them 2 brothers that invented the airplane????? they were called
> crazy ect. if they attempted what they did 200 years earlier they would
> have
> been hanged or beheaded. What about the people that got on boats to prove
> the earth was round? And many others that you should thank.
>


There's a subtle difference between adventurous and pioneering, and
adventourous and reckless. What really confuses me is that you openly
admit, nay brag, about the fact you did it in a non-aerobatic aircraft.



--

'It is rumoured that his last words were, "Watch this..."'
Duke Elegant
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117465

[jsmith]

Dude, just because the maneuver isn't approved in the aircraft manual
doesn't me it isn't safe to do. The limiting factor is the skill of the
pilot. Stay within the G-limits, airspeed limits, the airplane doesn't
know what it's doing.
Robert A "Bob" Hoover was a military and civilian pilot that did things
with airplanes others said couldn't be done. He did them nonetheless,
repeatedly, in the same aircraft.

B S D Chapman wrote:
> There's a subtle difference between adventurous and pioneering, and
> adventourous and reckless. What really confuses me is that you openly
> admit, nay brag, about the fact you did it in a non-aerobatic aircraft.

[Dudley Henriques]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...


> Plain in simple life is short! You never know
> how long you have. So live it like every day is your last.

Actually, you have it backwards. The trick in aerobatics is to live each day
fully expecting that your attitude and skills producing what you do in the
air will allow you to see tomorrow alive :-)

Well, I wish you the best of luck of course, and I certainly don't wish you
any harm, but I can truthfully say to you from my fair amount of experience
training pilots in the aerobatic environment is that if you actually believe
what you are posting out here; live it up while you can, because from what
you're showing me anyway, concerning your attitude toward aerobatics and
flying, you just might not be around all that long.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)

[Andrew Gideon]

Smutny wrote:

> Dude, you really need to step back and take a good look at what you're
> exhibiting here.

You know, NW didn't need to post that he was doing aerobatics in a
*nonaerobatic* airplane. He convinced me a while back that he posts for
the shock value, and likely enjoys the huge response he generates as much
as he enjoys doing inappropriate things in/to aircraft.

I've enjoyed some of the resulting conversation (it never occurred to me
that an inadvertent roll might short the battery's terminals, for example),
but let's not give him the reward he craves. It just feeds his addiction,
and he'll be back for more.

- Andrew

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

NW_PILOT wrote:
> I would not say that we are glorifying recklessness, if it wasn't for people
> you call reckless we would still be living in caves. Most of us that are in
> to flying or other extreme hobbies have a huge respect for life but also
> have that need for that adrenalin.


There's a big difference between how you and I see flying. I don't consider it
an "extreme hobby" and do what I can to make sure it stays that way. I don't
look to flying for a rush... I look at it as a technically demanding activity
that provides a lot of satisfaction when done well. I learned a long time ago
it's much more difficult to be smooth on the controls. Any moron can yank the
controls to produce G.


> I my-self wake up every day and am very
> thankful that I don't have to stick a needle in my arm or suck something up
> my nose to get that rush, I have many many other activity's like flying to
> get that feeling.


No doubt you'll get it. As the redneck said right before he died, "Hey
y'all.... watch this!"


> You will Die one day that's a fact of Life!! You cannot hide from it! You
> cannot run from it! So embrace the Life you have been given and enjoy it
> with every breath you take because you may never know when it may be your
> last.


I suspect I can probably plan a little more long term than you. I learned a
long time ago that lightning doesn't always strike the other fellow; sometimes
it might get you. That being said, does one hide out underground afraid of
every rumble? No, he should go out and live his life, but at the same time he
should do what he can to minimize his risk. Some things just aren't worth
doing.

One other thought, my fatalistic friend: have you ever considered that perhaps
instead of getting killed, you merely get hurt severely? Having crashed an
airplane and suffering an incomplete amputation followed by reattachment of my
arm, I would suggest that there are worse things that can happen to you than
getting killed. You need to consider this before you do something else ill
advised.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

B S D Chapman wrote:
>
> Couldn't give a toss about the lives of the people in the aircraft.
> I'm ****ed off with him for putting the aircraft in to a situation that
> will, over time, over-stress it, potentially killing someone totally
> innocent in months or years time.


I thought about that too. I'm reminded about the policy fight squadrons had in
place proscribing victory rolls after a kill. The thought was that there might
be unknown battle damage and the stress of the roll might be the straw that
breaks the camel's back.

Some poor slob might be flying that airplane on down the road and lose a wing in
rough air from the abuse it's experiencing now. Although admittedly, if
NW_Pilot keeps doing what he's doing, he might well be the last owner of that
aircraft.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Dudley Henriques]

I've known Bob Hoover for over thirty years. He would be the second in line
(right behind me :-) to tell any pilot even thinking about attempting
aerobatics in an aircraft not approved for that purpose not to engage in
that endeavor.
Everything Bob does and has done in aerobatics with each and every aircraft
he has flown professionally for that purpose has required special waivers
from competent authority.
Please don't equate a non professional pilot performing aerobatics in a
Cessna 150 to Bob Hoover, or if you must do so, send this post along with
the initial post about this issue from the beginning of the thread to Bob
personally and tell him I told you to send it to him for his comment; then
post his response right back here on this newsgroup so that everyone can see
what he has to say about it.
Thank you
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)



"jsmith" > wrote in message
...
> Dude, just because the maneuver isn't approved in the aircraft manual
> doesn't me it isn't safe to do. The limiting factor is the skill of the
> pilot. Stay within the G-limits, airspeed limits, the airplane doesn't
> know what it's doing.
> Robert A "Bob" Hoover was a military and civilian pilot that did things
> with airplanes others said couldn't be done. He did them nonetheless,
> repeatedly, in the same aircraft.
>
> B S D Chapman wrote:
>> There's a subtle difference between adventurous and pioneering, and
>> adventourous and reckless. What really confuses me is that you openly
>> admit, nay brag, about the fact you did it in a non-aerobatic aircraft.
>

[Eric Greenwell]

NW_PILOT wrote:

> No it is my concept of life. Plain in simple lifeis short! You never know
> how long you have. So live it like every day is your last.

If you really live that way, your prediction that "life is short" will
come true.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Trent Moorehead]

> I my-self wake up every day and am very
> thankful that I don't have to stick a needle in my arm or suck something
up
> my nose to get that rush, I have many many other activity's like flying to
> get that feeling.

My personal take on this is that I try to avoid adrenalin rushes while I'm
flying. Adrenalin is usually predicated by the phrase, "Oh Sh*t!", which
like I said, I try to avoid in an airplane.

I do get a rush of sorts when I take off, but the rest is more a feeling of
satisfaction.

YMMV of course.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[Andrew Gideon]

Trent Moorehead wrote:

> I do get a rush of sorts when I take off, but the rest is more a feeling
> of satisfaction.

I felt a rush the first time I flew into a cloud. The goal was to reach the
point where it *doesn't* cause a rush, however.

"Satisfaction"? That's a good label for what's left, yes.

- Andrew

[Matt Whiting]

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> Smutny wrote:
>
>
>>Dude, you really need to step back and take a good look at what you're
>>exhibiting here.
>
>
> You know, NW didn't need to post that he was doing aerobatics in a
> *nonaerobatic* airplane. He convinced me a while back that he posts for
> the shock value, and likely enjoys the huge response he generates as much
> as he enjoys doing inappropriate things in/to aircraft.
>
> I've enjoyed some of the resulting conversation (it never occurred to me
> that an inadvertent roll might short the battery's terminals, for example),
> but let's not give him the reward he craves. It just feeds his addiction,
> and he'll be back for more.
>
> - Andrew
>

Well, if the poster who said he was sending the video to his local FSDO
really does that and wasn't just bluffing, then we may not have to hear
of his aviation recklessness too much longer.

Matt

[Dudley Henriques]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Smutny wrote:
>
>> Dude, you really need to step back and take a good look at what you're
>> exhibiting here.
>
> You know, NW didn't need to post that he was doing aerobatics in a
> *nonaerobatic* airplane. He convinced me a while back that he posts for
> the shock value, and likely enjoys the huge response he generates as much
> as he enjoys doing inappropriate things in/to aircraft.
>
> I've enjoyed some of the resulting conversation (it never occurred to me
> that an inadvertent roll might short the battery's terminals, for
> example),
> but let's not give him the reward he craves. It just feeds his addiction,
> and he'll be back for more.
>
> - Andrew

I have a slightly different take on posters ho post information like this
one did.

I take the post and use it exactly as I did here to make it a negative
example for any student who happens along the path. By doing this, even if
it is a troll, it serves a positive purpose, and posting with a positive
purpose is the only reason why most pilots and instructors who want to see
students get the right information post here to begin with. :-)

So it's a win win situation. The students win, and hopefully the initial
poster learns something, even if he doesn't say so in print. And who cares
really if the initial poster admits he learns something in public. It's what
he does in the privacy of his own cockpit that will determine if the message
got across to him. If he was a troll, then the students reading both his
post and the answers it generated should serve a very useful purpose.
I'm a firm believer in using all the available tools in the bag to keep
people alive in airplanes........trolls included! :-)))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)

[Andrew Gideon]

Dudley Henriques wrote:

> I take the post and use it exactly as I did here to make it a negative
> example for any student who happens along the path.

I liked your approach. Many others have taken a different approach. The
difference is that you used this as an example for others, while others
have attempted to directly attempt to disuade the OP.

I think the latter a losing proposition in this particular case.

- Andrew

[Dudley Henriques]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
>> I take the post and use it exactly as I did here to make it a negative
>> example for any student who happens along the path.
>
> I liked your approach. Many others have taken a different approach. The
> difference is that you used this as an example for others, while others
> have attempted to directly attempt to disuade the OP.
>
> I think the latter a losing proposition in this particular case.
>
> - Andrew

Without knowing anything but what I have read from the IP, I would tend to
agree with your assessment. But I don't blame those who have tried to set
him straight. In matters of flight safety , I will always opt for even the
slightest chance at setting someone straight on something as important as an
issue like this. If it's a waste of time for the IP, at least you can bounce
off him to get through to someone else who might be more receptive to common
sense.
It's been my experience through the years that taking the time to deal with
issues like this one can pay off big time. After all, if you manage to save
just one life by stopping long enough to shed a bit of light on the truth,
it makes this whole Usenet thing worth while...at least for me anyway :-)
But you're right. It tries my patience sometimes doing it! :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)

[NW_PILOT]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
> > Smutny wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Dude, you really need to step back and take a good look at what you're
> >>exhibiting here.
> >
> >
> > You know, NW didn't need to post that he was doing aerobatics in a
> > *nonaerobatic* airplane. He convinced me a while back that he posts for
> > the shock value, and likely enjoys the huge response he generates as
much
> > as he enjoys doing inappropriate things in/to aircraft.
> >
> > I've enjoyed some of the resulting conversation (it never occurred to me
> > that an inadvertent roll might short the battery's terminals, for
example),
> > but let's not give him the reward he craves. It just feeds his
addiction,
> > and he'll be back for more.
> >
> > - Andrew
> >
>
> Well, if the poster who said he was sending the video to his local FSDO
> really does that and wasn't just bluffing, then we may not have to hear
> of his aviation recklessness too much longer.
>
> Matt


It's funny how you all think I did this in my airplane my airplane is blue &
white not red.

[Toño]

Dudley Henriques wrote:

>>- Andrew
>
>
> I have a slightly different take on posters ho post information like this
> one did.
>
> I take the post and use it exactly as I did here to make it a negative
> example for any student who happens along the path. By doing this, even if
> it is a troll, it serves a positive purpose, and posting with a positive
> purpose is the only reason why most pilots and instructors who want to see
> students get the right information post here to begin with. :-)
>
> So it's a win win situation. The students win, and hopefully the initial
> poster learns something, even if he doesn't say so in print. And who cares
> really if the initial poster admits he learns something in public. It's what
> he does in the privacy of his own cockpit that will determine if the message
> got across to him. If he was a troll, then the students reading both his
> post and the answers it generated should serve a very useful purpose.
> I'm a firm believer in using all the available tools in the bag to keep
> people alive in airplanes........trolls included! :-)))
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
> dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
> (take out the trash :-)
>
>

I like the way you *spin* things, Dudley ! ;-)

Antonio

[NW_PILOT]

"Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
> online.com...
> > Dudley Henriques wrote:
> >
> >> I take the post and use it exactly as I did here to make it a negative
> >> example for any student who happens along the path.
> >
> > I liked your approach. Many others have taken a different approach.
The
> > difference is that you used this as an example for others, while others
> > have attempted to directly attempt to disuade the OP.
> >
> > I think the latter a losing proposition in this particular case.
> >
> > - Andrew
>
> Without knowing anything but what I have read from the IP, I would tend to
> agree with your assessment. But I don't blame those who have tried to set
> him straight. In matters of flight safety , I will always opt for even the
> slightest chance at setting someone straight on something as important as
an
> issue like this. If it's a waste of time for the IP, at least you can
bounce
> off him to get through to someone else who might be more receptive to
common
> sense.
> It's been my experience through the years that taking the time to deal
with
> issues like this one can pay off big time. After all, if you manage to
save
> just one life by stopping long enough to shed a bit of light on the truth,
> it makes this whole Usenet thing worth while...at least for me anyway :-)
> But you're right. It tries my patience sometimes doing it! :-)
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
> dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
> (take out the trash :-)
>
>

Dudley, your one of the only one! I have learned a lot on these usnet
groups. I AM NOT A TROLL!!!!

Werid I seek instruction report back and get flamed!

[Dudley Henriques]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in message
> k.net...
>>
>> "Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
>> online.com...
>> > Dudley Henriques wrote:
>> >
>> >> I take the post and use it exactly as I did here to make it a negative
>> >> example for any student who happens along the path.
>> >
>> > I liked your approach. Many others have taken a different approach.
> The
>> > difference is that you used this as an example for others, while others
>> > have attempted to directly attempt to disuade the OP.
>> >
>> > I think the latter a losing proposition in this particular case.
>> >
>> > - Andrew
>>
>> Without knowing anything but what I have read from the IP, I would tend
>> to
>> agree with your assessment. But I don't blame those who have tried to set
>> him straight. In matters of flight safety , I will always opt for even
>> the
>> slightest chance at setting someone straight on something as important as
> an
>> issue like this. If it's a waste of time for the IP, at least you can
> bounce
>> off him to get through to someone else who might be more receptive to
> common
>> sense.
>> It's been my experience through the years that taking the time to deal
> with
>> issues like this one can pay off big time. After all, if you manage to
> save
>> just one life by stopping long enough to shed a bit of light on the
>> truth,
>> it makes this whole Usenet thing worth while...at least for me anyway :-)
>> But you're right. It tries my patience sometimes doing it! :-)
>> Dudley Henriques
>> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>> Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
>> dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
>> (take out the trash :-)
>>
>>
>
> Dudley, your one of the only one! I have learned a lot on these usnet
> groups. I AM NOT A TROLL!!!!
>
> Werid I seek instruction report back and get flamed!

Believe me, if I was "flaming you", you'd know it! :-)
It's just that some of the things you are posting here are bothering me and
I'm puzzled as to how you can view things the way you are viewing them.
For example, in another post, you make an issue out of the color of the
airplane and whether or not the airplane belonged to you or not. These
things aren't important to this issue. Only the fact that you have said you
rolled a non aerobatic airplane and seem to be quite proud of doing that.
Then you have attempted to justify all this by saying in another post that
you had a competent instructor on board when you rolled this 150.
Trust me on this one. Any CFI who would sit there fat dumb and happy on his
butt in a Cessna 150 and allow someone to roll it is NOT a competent
instructor. Hell, I shouldn't have to tell you this. You should KNOW this!
The act was not only unsafe, it was illegal. And then you come on a student
pilot's newsgroup and proceed to tell the world that they should "live for
today".
I'm sorry old buddy, but FWIW, I just don't see aviation like this, and I
sincerely hope that I've got an odds on chance of convincing YOU that this
is NOT the way to approach your flying.
If you have any respect for my opinion at all, I may have succeeded in
pointing you in a different direction. If not, at least I tried.
Hell, I'm not out here to flame you. If I thought you were a troll, I
wouldn't waste my time on you.
You think about what I've told you. I can't "make" you think differently.
That's entirely up to you. You can take that 150 out tomorrow and roll it
again. I can't stop you. But then again, after any sting from what I have
told you wears off a bit, maybe you will end up with just a little better
handle on this. If that's the case, you don't even have to let me know about
it. It's just like playing golf. If you cheat, you're cheating only
yourself.
I don't post here to show people how much better a pilot I am or how much
smarter I am at flying then they are. Like most experienced pilots, I post
here because I feel it's necessary for people like myself to at least try
and pass on to those coming up what I learned from those who came before me
and what I learned on my own.
When I post like I have to you on an issue like this one, I'm not trying to
better you, or to make you "look bad". I'm not that shallow.
In the end, YOU will have to decide for yourself about what's safe and
what's unsafe in your approach to flying. As for me.....If any small input
from me has helped you and others to make good decisions along these lines,
the time and effort I have taken on this group will have been well spent.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)

[private]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
snip
> Dudley, your one of the only one! I have learned a lot on these usnet
> groups. I AM NOT A TROLL!!!!
>
> Werid I seek instruction report back and get flamed!
>

Hello NW_pilot

I started this new thread because it was not my intention to single out your
actions, others have said all that needed to be said. I think your
instructor is more deserving of critisism than you. You are not the first
to roll or loop a flight school Cessna and I doubt that you will be the
last. I hope it has been a learning experience and that you suffer no
further problems from your public announcement. I think you should be
commended for the grace with which you have received the replies of these
groups. The important thing is that you survived to be a better pilot.

My comments were intended to stimulate thought regarding the consequences of
poor decision making that this week has resulted in two fatalities. I have
a funeral to attend and I do not know what to say to the mother who has now
lost both her champion pilot husband and her champion pilot only son.
Dudley, I would appreciate your guidance and wisdom as I am sure you have
been in my position too many times.

The study of human factors recognizes that (like Pogo) "We have seen the
problem and it is US". Controlling the aircraft is only a part of
successful flight operation, control of the pilot seems to be the largest
part of the problem.

Just my humble .02

[john smith]

Dudley, don't misunderstand me.
Hoover (an a limited number of others) are special circumstances.
Everything I have read stated that the Shrike was a stock airplane.
I don't recall that Hoover ever spins in the airplane.
The video of the roll while pouring a glass of water is sure a hoot, though!
As I said in my post, in the right hands, some maneuvers not approve by
the manufacturer can in fact be performed safely.

[Dudley Henriques]

"private" > wrote in message
news:GGgce.1150342$Xk.1123548@pd7tw3no...

> My comments were intended to stimulate thought regarding the consequences
> of
> poor decision making that this week has resulted in two fatalities. I
> have
> a funeral to attend and I do not know what to say to the mother who has
> now
> lost both her champion pilot husband and her champion pilot only son.
> Dudley, I would appreciate your guidance and wisdom as I am sure you have
> been in my position too many times.

Yes, I have unfortunately been in this position more than I care to remember
in my career. Counting our friends on the service jet aerobatic teams, my
wife and I can count 32 people I either flew with, worked with, or knew
professionally in our community who have been lost to fatal accidents
involving aerobatics and low altitude demonstration flying.
I believe I know how you must feel being faced with such a sad event. It
would be presumptuous of me to even attempt to advise you on the best way to
deal with it as I can't imagine a more personal thing than what you are
about to do.
From the way you write however, I also believe you will do the right thing.
Please accept my sincere best wishes and condolences for what most certainly
will be a most trying experience.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)

[[email protected]]

Dudley,

Your information and attitude on this newsgroup is awesome. I would
love to have you as an aerobatic instructor.

You ever around the Bay Area? I would love to meet with you and talk
with you sometime.

If you know Bob Hoover, then I am sure you knew Amiela Reid and Wayne
Handley? Those are my all time favorite airshow pilots. Before Ameila
Reid passed, I would watch her performmances at the Watsonville Fly-in
in her Cessna 150 Acro, so graceful.

Anyway, keep up the teaching, it is not lost on everybody.

Donovan
C-172 Pilot
150 hrs.

[private]

Dudley,

As always, thanks for being here, we all value your council and your
example.

Blue skies to all

"Dudley Henriques" <dhenriques@noware .net> wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "private" > wrote in message
> news:GGgce.1150342$Xk.1123548@pd7tw3no...
>
> > My comments were intended to stimulate thought regarding the
consequences
> > of
> > poor decision making that this week has resulted in two fatalities. I
> > have
> > a funeral to attend and I do not know what to say to the mother who has
> > now
> > lost both her champion pilot husband and her champion pilot only son.
> > Dudley, I would appreciate your guidance and wisdom as I am sure you
have
> > been in my position too many times.
>
> Yes, I have unfortunately been in this position more than I care to
remember
> in my career. Counting our friends on the service jet aerobatic teams, my
> wife and I can count 32 people I either flew with, worked with, or knew
> professionally in our community who have been lost to fatal accidents
> involving aerobatics and low altitude demonstration flying.
> I believe I know how you must feel being faced with such a sad event. It
> would be presumptuous of me to even attempt to advise you on the best way
to
> deal with it as I can't imagine a more personal thing than what you are
> about to do.
> From the way you write however, I also believe you will do the right
thing.
> Please accept my sincere best wishes and condolences for what most
certainly
> will be a most trying experience.
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
> dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
> (take out the trash :-)
>
>
>

[Dudley Henriques]

Thank you for the kind word, but I'm afraid my flying days are long over
:-)
I know Bob from the old IFPF days. He was one of our charter members.
You have a couple of real heavyweights there in Amelia and Handley. I never
met them, but both are of course well known to me. Amelia was, before her
death and remains today a legend in the California tailwheel and aerobatic
community. Handley I believe is still flying the Oracle bird. God knows what
Bob is doing these days. Probably sitting on his veranda out there in Palos
Verdes looking at the sea gulls flying over the ocean planning some "new"
maneuver to try and refusing to grow old like the rest of us.:-)
Dudley

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Dudley,
>
> Your information and attitude on this newsgroup is awesome. I would
> love to have you as an aerobatic instructor.
>
> You ever around the Bay Area? I would love to meet with you and talk
> with you sometime.
>
> If you know Bob Hoover, then I am sure you knew Amiela Reid and Wayne
> Handley? Those are my all time favorite airshow pilots. Before Ameila
> Reid passed, I would watch her performmances at the Watsonville Fly-in
> in her Cessna 150 Acro, so graceful.
>
> Anyway, keep up the teaching, it is not lost on everybody.
>
> Donovan
> C-172 Pilot
> 150 hrs.
>

[Peter R.]

Andrew Gideon > wrote:

> I felt a rush the first time I flew into a cloud. The goal was to reach the
> point where it *doesn't* cause a rush, however.

Sometimes I will stare at an approaching cloud while flying IFR (on
autopilot) and imagine that it is a brick wall. The speed at which it hits
the aircraft still causes a momentary rush in me.

--
Peter


















----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

[Matt Whiting]

john smith wrote:
> Dudley, don't misunderstand me.
> Hoover (an a limited number of others) are special circumstances.
> Everything I have read stated that the Shrike was a stock airplane.
> I don't recall that Hoover ever spins in the airplane.
> The video of the roll while pouring a glass of water is sure a hoot,
> though!
> As I said in my post, in the right hands, some maneuvers not approve by
> the manufacturer can in fact be performed safely.

I believe that Bob also said at one airshow that he never stressed the
Shrike beyond its certification load limits. As someone said earlier,
it often isn't the aerobatic maneuver itself that stresses the airframe,
it is the botched maneuver or the recovery from a botched maneuver where
the extra strength is needed. Obviously, Mr. Hoover doesn't have to
worry about that. :-)


Matt

[Matt Barrow]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> john smith wrote:
> > Dudley, don't misunderstand me.
> > Hoover (an a limited number of others) are special circumstances.
> > Everything I have read stated that the Shrike was a stock airplane.
> > I don't recall that Hoover ever spins in the airplane.
> > The video of the roll while pouring a glass of water is sure a hoot,
> > though!
> > As I said in my post, in the right hands, some maneuvers not approve by
> > the manufacturer can in fact be performed safely.
>
> I believe that Bob also said at one airshow that he never stressed the
> Shrike beyond its certification load limits. As someone said earlier,
> it often isn't the aerobatic maneuver itself that stresses the airframe,
> it is the botched maneuver or the recovery from a botched maneuver where
> the extra strength is needed. Obviously, Mr. Hoover doesn't have to
> worry about that. :-)
>

According to Liefeld, Hoover's Shrike had just two modifications other than
its smoke system. An hydraulic accumulator in the baggage compartment held
hydraulic pressure so Hoover could extend the gear when the airplane was
upside down and the engines feathered. It also provided Hoover with
nosewheel steering following his deadstick landing and rollout.

The second mod was an automatic unfeathering system. Hoover would shut down
the engines by pulling the prop controls to Feather position while leaving
the throttles and mixture controls in place. To restart, he would advance
the prop levers, tripping microswitches on electric pumps that unfeathered
the props so they would windmill and restart.


Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[gatt]

"jsmith" > wrote in message news:J1bce.941

> Robert A "Bob" Hoover was a military and civilian pilot that did things
> with airplanes others said couldn't be done.

Mr. Hoover, however, is credited by many of the best pilots in the history
of aviation to be the best pilot in the history of aviation.

Bob Hoover can do an 8-point roll, power-off, in a cargo plane, glide it
around the pattern and stop it on a dime. I, personally, would not attempt
to do that.

'Course, I've never flown a roll in an airplane, either. I know, I
know...it's a sad thing. One of these days....
-c

[Ron Natalie]

Dudley Henriques wrote:

> Everything Bob does and has done in aerobatics with each and every aircraft
> he has flown professionally for that purpose has required special waivers
> from competent authority.

And certainly an aircraft inspected more often than your average ragged
out trainer. I saw footage of a Hoover wannabe foldering up the wings
on a Partenavia during an airshow.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
>> Everything Bob does and has done in aerobatics with each and every
>> aircraft
>> he has flown professionally for that purpose has required special waivers
>> from competent authority.
>
> And certainly an aircraft inspected more often than your average ragged
> out trainer. I saw footage of a Hoover wannabe foldering up the wings
> on a Partenavia during an airshow.

Yes; this type of thing is unfortunate. Hoover is very aware of it and
speaks to GA pilots quite often on safety issues. He's always been quite
candid and truthful; especially when discussing his own mistakes.
Copy-cat issues with aerobatic wannabes are quite prevalent in aviation
unfortunately. All of us in the demonstration community do our best to nip
it in the bud when we see it happening. This thread is a good example of
that. Hopefully, I'm well known enough that when I come down on something
like rolling a Cessna 150, pilots, including the 150 driver will listen to
me. It's important that well respected pilots like you and Margy speak out
as well..as you have here. God knows if any of us do any good when things
like this come up. Lord I hope so! I know through the years I've talked on
it many times in aerobatic lectures I've given, and pilots like Hoover talk
on still today.
Dudley

[George Patterson]

jsmith wrote:
>
> Robert A "Bob" Hoover was a military and civilian pilot that did things
> with airplanes others said couldn't be done.

NW_PILOT isn't Bob Hoover.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Ed H]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
>
> No it is my concept of life. Plain in simple lifeis short! You never know
> how long you have. So live it like every day is your last.
>

I'm a career Special Forces officer. I've made my living with and around
firearms, explosives, parachutes, and other risky things. Not to mention
roaming around places like Iraq trying not to get shot or blown up. Two of
my favorite off-duty pursuits are aerobatic flying and mountaineering. So
I'm fairly well acquianted with risk.

Here's the thing: it's not about taking stupid chances in search of an
adrenaline rush. It's about controlling your environment, mastering the
challenges set before you. That means gathering information, knowing all
the risks, having the right skills, and taking appropriate measures to
ensure the outcome is positive. Every time.

If you live like every day is your last, then it will become a
self-fulfilling prophesy. It's a BS attitude. Your mentality should be "I
may die, but it ain't gonna be today." Live to fly (or climb, or jump, or
fight) another day.

I don't know Bob Hoover, but I'm willing to bet that his attitude is closer
to mine than to yours. I've known guys with your attitude. Some of them
grew out of it. The others are dead.

I don't blame you for the roll. I blame your CFI. You, as a student,
cannot be criticized for trusting your CFI to advise you. I probably would
have done the same thing 10 years ago, when I didn't know better. Your CFI
should lose his instructor status, if not his flight privs.

But that highlights the big danger in these kind of endeavors. You do the
right thing by seeking help from an experienced person, but what if that
person turns out to be an idiot? All I can say is be careful who you trust,
seek second opinions, and look for appropriate certifications. One of the
saddest things about the NTSB accident reports are all the stories of
friends and family members killed by jackass pilots doing stupid things.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Ed H" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> No it is my concept of life. Plain in simple lifeis short! You never know
>> how long you have. So live it like every day is your last.
>>
>
> I'm a career Special Forces officer. I've made my living with and around
> firearms, explosives, parachutes, and other risky things. Not to mention
> roaming around places like Iraq trying not to get shot or blown up. Two
> of my favorite off-duty pursuits are aerobatic flying and mountaineering.
> So I'm fairly well acquianted with risk.
>
> Here's the thing: it's not about taking stupid chances in search of an
> adrenaline rush. It's about controlling your environment, mastering the
> challenges set before you. That means gathering information, knowing all
> the risks, having the right skills, and taking appropriate measures to
> ensure the outcome is positive. Every time.
>
> If you live like every day is your last, then it will become a
> self-fulfilling prophesy. It's a BS attitude. Your mentality should be
> "I may die, but it ain't gonna be today." Live to fly (or climb, or jump,
> or fight) another day.
>
> I don't know Bob Hoover, but I'm willing to bet that his attitude is
> closer to mine than to yours. I've known guys with your attitude. Some
> of them grew out of it. The others are dead.
>
> I don't blame you for the roll. I blame your CFI. You, as a student,
> cannot be criticized for trusting your CFI to advise you. I probably
> would have done the same thing 10 years ago, when I didn't know better.
> Your CFI should lose his instructor status, if not his flight privs.
>
> But that highlights the big danger in these kind of endeavors. You do the
> right thing by seeking help from an experienced person, but what if that
> person turns out to be an idiot? All I can say is be careful who you
> trust, seek second opinions, and look for appropriate certifications. One
> of the saddest things about the NTSB accident reports are all the stories
> of friends and family members killed by jackass pilots doing stupid
> things.

It's exactly this philosophy that kept me alive through an entire career of
test flying and demonstrating high performance airplanes at low altitude.
And you're right about Hoover also. I know him, and his philosophy IS
exactly as you have stated here.
Thank you for your service,
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)

[nafod40]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" wrote...
>
>>Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Everything Bob does and has done in aerobatics with each and every
>>>aircraft
>>>he has flown professionally for that purpose has required special waivers
>>>from competent authority.
>>
>>And certainly an aircraft inspected more often than your average ragged
>>out trainer. I saw footage of a Hoover wannabe foldering up the wings
>>on a Partenavia during an airshow.
>
>
> Yes; this type of thing is unfortunate. Hoover is very aware of it and
> speaks to GA pilots quite often on safety issues. He's always been quite
> candid and truthful; especially when discussing his own mistakes.
> Copy-cat issues with aerobatic wannabes are quite prevalent in aviation
> unfortunately.

Not just aviation. I rock climb, and at the top of the rock climbing
pyramid are guys that climb thousand foot cliffs of astounding
difficulty, and do it solo without any ropes or other safety gear. Just
their skill.

And when asked about it, to a man they do the right thing and go on and
on, blah, blah, blah, about how they do it for themselves, and no one
else should do it, etc. And still people follow their lead and kill
themselves when they get over their head.

The soloists can do what they do because they have absolute mastery (as
much as one can be a master) of their skills and limitations. The
problem is, their logic of "I am a master, therefore I can solo" gets
turned around by wannabes into "If *I* solo climb, I too must be a
master." At which point natural selection occurs.

Everybody would like to have the skills of Mr. Hoover. More than a few
think they already do. Some will always die trying to prove it, to
themselves and others. So it'll be a constant battle.

[james]

strapping yourself to an enormous fuel tank and two rockets is pretty
damn reckless if you ask me, but i respect any astronaut living or who
died exploring new frontiers.

hey so is sailing across the ocean when everyone else expects you to
fall off.

[Ed H]

"private" > wrote in message

> CFIT A multiple champion pilot losses control while reaching for a $100
> side
> bet.
>

What accident does this refer to? Who was killed?

[Brooks Hagenow]

NW_PILOT wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Andrew Gideon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Smutny wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dude, you really need to step back and take a good look at what you're
>>>>exhibiting here.
>>>
>>>
>>>You know, NW didn't need to post that he was doing aerobatics in a
>>>*nonaerobatic* airplane. He convinced me a while back that he posts for
>>>the shock value, and likely enjoys the huge response he generates as
>
> much
>
>>>as he enjoys doing inappropriate things in/to aircraft.
>>>
>>>I've enjoyed some of the resulting conversation (it never occurred to me
>>>that an inadvertent roll might short the battery's terminals, for
>
> example),
>
>>>but let's not give him the reward he craves. It just feeds his
>
> addiction,
>
>>>and he'll be back for more.
>>>
>>> - Andrew
>>>
>>
>>Well, if the poster who said he was sending the video to his local FSDO
>>really does that and wasn't just bluffing, then we may not have to hear
>>of his aviation recklessness too much longer.
>>
>>Matt
>
>
>
> It's funny how you all think I did this in my airplane my airplane is blue &
> white not red.
>
>

If you are going to intentionally put an aircraft at risk, I would
rather you do it with your own plane, not one others may rely on or if
damaged put at risk.

[[email protected]]

On the subject of *Wannabe* flying, I remember a tragic example from
RF-4 training at Mt. home AFB in 1967. A crew from our sister squadron
was working with an Army detachment in the field. After the days
activities were over, the ground controller asked for a fly-by. The
RF-4 jock came by at 500 feet with everything hanging out, gear down,
flaps down, hook down. As he passed by the guys on the ground, he lit
both burners and attempted a roll. Almost made it too, but dished-out
on the bottom and turned it into a flaming ball of wreckage.

While going through the pilots stuff several days later, a video was
found showing the Thunderbirds doing a roll from 500 feet with
everything hanging out using full burner.

JJ Sinclair

[Ed]

Thanks Dudley. No surprise you agree. Most people in dangerous professions
learn to think this way, or they become a statistic. Test pilot, fighter
pilot, aerobatic pilot, soldier, police officer, fireman, mountain climber,
stuntman, race car driver ... the same mentality is essential to success.
Learn as much as you can, prepare as much as you can, and stack the odds in
your favor so you reach the end in one piece.

The old saying is wrong. There are plenty of old, bold pilots. But they
are all old, bold, careful pilots. There are no old, bold, careless pilots.


>
> It's exactly this philosophy that kept me alive through an entire career
> of test flying and demonstrating high performance airplanes at low
> altitude.
> And you're right about Hoover also. I know him, and his philosophy IS
> exactly as you have stated here.
> Thank you for your service,
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
> dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
> (take out the trash :-)
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"Ed" > wrote in message
...
>
> Thanks Dudley. No surprise you agree. Most people in dangerous
> professions learn to think this way, or they become a statistic. Test
> pilot, fighter pilot, aerobatic pilot, soldier, police officer, fireman,
> mountain climber, stuntman, race car driver ... the same mentality is
> essential to success. Learn as much as you can, prepare as much as you
> can, and stack the odds in your favor so you reach the end in one piece.
>
> The old saying is wrong. There are plenty of old, bold pilots. But they
> are all old, bold, careful pilots. There are no old, bold, careless
> pilots.

It has always amazed me about the "hero" tag people for some reason
absolutely insist on associating with professionals who engage in dangerous
work. The truth of it, as I'm sure you are well aware, is that the "heros"
get killed off pretty quickly. It's the people who treat these jobs with the
respect they deserve that live to do it again and again.
Race driver Tom Sneva said it better than I ever could one day after he
smacked the wall at Indy at 230 mph and walked away. A reporter stuck a mike
in Tom's puss as he was walking in and asked him the wrong question
:-) The reporter asked,
"Boy...I bet you'd like to be able to try that corner again wouldn't you
Tom?"
Sneva just looked at the guy like he was nuts and said simply,
"Yeah right! ......if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd ALL have a
Merry Christmas!!!"
In flying....it's knowing when to be bold and when not to be bold that adds
up to the "old" part!! :-)
Dudley

[Justin Fielding]

Yip, live fast die young. Better than sitting in bed at 70 with all
types of disease and cancer eating away at your internal organs. You
can't hide from death, it will come to vist one day and unless you are
religious and believe in the afterlife etc, it doesn't really matter if
it is sooner or later, you will still end up dead!

J.


NW_PILOT wrote:
> "private" > wrote in message
> news:hQ7ce.1148571$8l.556991@pd7tw1no...
>
>>My apologies to the Usenet police re: cross posting but
>>
>>
>>
>>I am in mourning for friends lost, and in sympathy for the families they
>>left alone.
>>
>>
>>
>>This week we have seen behavior that can only be described as reckless.
>>
>>
>>
>>A man posts video of a poorly performed roll in a non aerobatic aircraft
>>without regard for ...............to say nothing about his instructor
>>PARTICIPATING. Two survivors and a questionable aircraft
>>
>>
>>
>>CFIT A multiple champion pilot losses control while reaching for a $100
>
> side
>
>>bet.
>>
>>One fatal.
>>
>>
>>
>>911?, fuel exhaustion, over water, without flotation, at night. One
>>(probable) fatal.
>>
>>
>>
>>I am tempted to ask why? where are we failing? are we glorifying
>>recklessness? Are we truly self destructive (cigarettes, food, alcohol,
>>pollution etc)? what can we do? but
>>
>>
>>
>>I know that we must each find the answers within ourselves and to strive
>
> for
>
>>the personal situational control to handle these situations and
>
> temptations.
>
>>Training helps, as do mentors. (Thank you Dudley, Gene etal)
>>
>>
>>
>>I am sick of hearing "he died doing something he loved". It just sounds
>>trite.
>>
>>
>>
>>They are always way too young.
>>
>>
>>
>>My condolences and sympathy to all mourning family and friends.
>>
>>
>
>
> Ok what about the people you don't here about all the fools driving cars
> talking on cell phone, driving while under the influence of a mind altering
> substance like Prozac and the many other pansy pills. "Ohh dont for get
> about the other drugs people use"
>
> "You know Moving any faster than a walking pace can be potentially fatal!"
>
> I would not say that we are glorifying recklessness, if it wasn't for people
> you call reckless we would still be living in caves. Most of us that are in
> to flying or other extreme hobbies have a huge respect for life but also
> have that need for that adrenalin. I my-self wake up every day and am very
> thankful that I don't have to stick a needle in my arm or suck something up
> my nose to get that rush, I have many many other activity's like flying to
> get that feeling.
>
> You will Die one day that's a fact of Life!! You cannot hide from it! You
> cannot run from it! So embrace the Life you have been given and enjoy it
> with every breath you take because you may never know when it may be your
> last.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Bob Moore]

Justin Fielding wrote

> Yip, live fast die young. Better than sitting in bed at 70 with all
> types of disease and cancer eating away at your internal organs.

RIGHT !!!

I have now reached that age (70), but spend no more time in bed than
you do and probably spend a lot more time at the airport or in an
airplane than you do. Still a practicing flight instructor with over
20,000 hours of flying behind me and looking forward to lots more.
I was on the receiving end of a Flight Review just last week and the
other instructor was 76 years old. We had a great time in the 47 year
old Cessna 172.

Bob Moore
ATP B-727 B-707 L-188
CFI CFII
Naval Aviator S-2A P-2V P-3B 1958-1967
Pan American Airways 1967-1991 (retired)

[nafod40]

Justin Fielding wrote:
> Yip, live fast die young. Better than sitting in bed at 70 with all
> types of disease and cancer eating away at your internal organs. You
> can't hide from death, it will come to vist one day and unless you are
> religious and believe in the afterlife etc, it doesn't really matter if
> it is sooner or later, you will still end up dead!

Justin, Can I take out some life insurance on you?

[Gene Whitt]

What I have belatedly discovered is that flying time is NOT
deducted from your life span. At 81. I expect to pass 11,000
hours this year. I got a late start and like every other pilot
regret that I did not start flying sooner.
Gene Whitt

[Highflyer]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 121...
> Justin Fielding wrote
>
>> Yip, live fast die young. Better than sitting in bed at 70 with all
>> types of disease and cancer eating away at your internal organs.
>
> RIGHT !!!
>
> I have now reached that age (70), but spend no more time in bed than
> you do and probably spend a lot more time at the airport or in an
> airplane than you do. Still a practicing flight instructor with over
> 20,000 hours of flying behind me and looking forward to lots more.
> I was on the receiving end of a Flight Review just last week and the
> other instructor was 76 years old. We had a great time in the 47 year
> old Cessna 172.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP B-727 B-707 L-188
> CFI CFII
> Naval Aviator S-2A P-2V P-3B 1958-1967
> Pan American Airways 1967-1991 (retired)

Yep. Getting there myself. The last CFI I was up with was 87 and he was
getting a checkout in the airplane from ME! :-)

Highflyer

[RST Engineering]

Golly, what a bunch of OLD FARTS. I just ticked 61 and am looking forward
to all the stuff you all are talking about when I hit 70

(Are Depends anywhere in the mix? Just wondering...)

{;-)


Jim

[W P Dixon]

LMAO,
Now that was funny!!!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> Golly, what a bunch of OLD FARTS. I just ticked 61 and am looking forward
> to all the stuff you all are talking about when I hit 70
>
> (Are Depends anywhere in the mix? Just wondering...)
>
> {;-)
>
>
> Jim
>
>

[George Patterson]

Bob Moore wrote:
>
> I have now reached that age (70), but spend no more time in bed than
> you do and probably spend a lot more time at the airport or in an
> airplane than you do.

You mean I *don't* get to sleep my life away when I get that old? Dammit, I was
sorta looking forward to catching up on my sleep. :-)

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[For Example John Smith]

There's no reason why living every day as your last precludes living every
day with the discipline to do everything in a way that best ensures that you
live another day. Who would want their last day to be marked by sloppiness,
lack of skill or poor judgement? Marcus Aurelius spoke at length on this
topic ca. 200 AD.



"Ed H" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > No it is my concept of life. Plain in simple lifeis short! You never
know
> > how long you have. So live it like every day is your last.
> >
>
> I'm a career Special Forces officer. I've made my living with and around
> firearms, explosives, parachutes, and other risky things. Not to mention
> roaming around places like Iraq trying not to get shot or blown up. Two
of
> my favorite off-duty pursuits are aerobatic flying and mountaineering. So
> I'm fairly well acquianted with risk.
>
> Here's the thing: it's not about taking stupid chances in search of an
> adrenaline rush. It's about controlling your environment, mastering the
> challenges set before you. That means gathering information, knowing all
> the risks, having the right skills, and taking appropriate measures to
> ensure the outcome is positive. Every time.
>
> If you live like every day is your last, then it will become a
> self-fulfilling prophesy. It's a BS attitude. Your mentality should be
"I
> may die, but it ain't gonna be today." Live to fly (or climb, or jump, or
> fight) another day.
>
> I don't know Bob Hoover, but I'm willing to bet that his attitude is
closer
> to mine than to yours. I've known guys with your attitude. Some of them
> grew out of it. The others are dead.
>
> I don't blame you for the roll. I blame your CFI. You, as a student,
> cannot be criticized for trusting your CFI to advise you. I probably
would
> have done the same thing 10 years ago, when I didn't know better. Your
CFI
> should lose his instructor status, if not his flight privs.
>
> But that highlights the big danger in these kind of endeavors. You do the
> right thing by seeking help from an experienced person, but what if that
> person turns out to be an idiot? All I can say is be careful who you
trust,
> seek second opinions, and look for appropriate certifications. One of the
> saddest things about the NTSB accident reports are all the stories of
> friends and family members killed by jackass pilots doing stupid things.
>
>

[Roger]

On Mon, 9 May 2005 10:28:09 -0500, "For Example John Smith"
> wrote:

>There's no reason why living every day as your last precludes living every
>day with the discipline to do everything in a way that best ensures that you
>live another day. Who would want their last day to be marked by sloppiness,
>lack of skill or poor judgement? Marcus Aurelius spoke at length on this
>topic ca. 200 AD.
>

I think those taking this stance for living every day as your last are
ignoring today's connotations of the statement.

I take the above statements explanation to mean "living every day to
the fullest as it might be your last:". This is far different than
the usual thoughts that go with live every day as if it were your
last, which does bring to mind recklessness and lack of judgment.

So too could "Live every day as if it were going to be your last" as
it will be the light in which you are remembered.

Word meanings change with time and statements such as the one above,
even more. I'd assume the meaning of" living your life to the fullest
as it might be the last" and Live every day as if it were to be your
last may have changed since 200AD. It's different from culture to
culture today.

This is one of those statements that can easily mean virtually the
opposite to two different people..

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>
>"Ed H" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > No it is my concept of life. Plain in simple lifeis short! You never
>know
>> > how long you have. So live it like every day is your last.
>> >
>>
>> I'm a career Special Forces officer. I've made my living with and around
>> firearms, explosives, parachutes, and other risky things. Not to mention
>> roaming around places like Iraq trying not to get shot or blown up. Two
>of
>> my favorite off-duty pursuits are aerobatic flying and mountaineering. So
>> I'm fairly well acquianted with risk.
>>
>> Here's the thing: it's not about taking stupid chances in search of an
>> adrenaline rush. It's about controlling your environment, mastering the
>> challenges set before you. That means gathering information, knowing all
>> the risks, having the right skills, and taking appropriate measures to
>> ensure the outcome is positive. Every time.
>>
>> If you live like every day is your last, then it will become a
>> self-fulfilling prophesy. It's a BS attitude. Your mentality should be
>"I
>> may die, but it ain't gonna be today." Live to fly (or climb, or jump, or
>> fight) another day.
>>
>> I don't know Bob Hoover, but I'm willing to bet that his attitude is
>closer
>> to mine than to yours. I've known guys with your attitude. Some of them
>> grew out of it. The others are dead.
>>
>> I don't blame you for the roll. I blame your CFI. You, as a student,
>> cannot be criticized for trusting your CFI to advise you. I probably
>would
>> have done the same thing 10 years ago, when I didn't know better. Your
>CFI
>> should lose his instructor status, if not his flight privs.
>>
>> But that highlights the big danger in these kind of endeavors. You do the
>> right thing by seeking help from an experienced person, but what if that
>> person turns out to be an idiot? All I can say is be careful who you
>trust,
>> seek second opinions, and look for appropriate certifications. One of the
>> saddest things about the NTSB accident reports are all the stories of
>> friends and family members killed by jackass pilots doing stupid things.
>>
>>
>