COBRA Anti-Sway Coupler

[[email protected]]

Anybody have experience in using this? Would it help towing a COBRA trailer with a small car?

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 2:00:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Anybody have experience in using this? Would it help towing a COBRA trailer with a small car?

Define 'small car'. Cobra and Avionic trailers are like a rock behind my VW Golf TDI Wagon (relatively small car).

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 2:34:17 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 2:00:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Anybody have experience in using this? Would it help towing a COBRA trailer with a small car?
> Define 'small car'. Cobra and Avionic trailers are like a rock behind my VW Golf TDI Wagon (relatively small car).
Small car as in a 2015 VW GTI

[[email protected]]

I've installed three or four of these on Cobra trailers. Very well made and nicely designed. I put them on both single place and two seat glider trailers. They are pretty effective at controlling sway, even though the customers all tow with full-size pickups or SUVs. It definitely helps when towing with a short wheelbase vehicle.

I can't say how effective they are with something like a VW Golf, (but I consider that to be too small to tow a glider anyway. Maybe the wagon, with the longer wheelbase will work better.) I know they tow with tiny vehicles in Europe, but the glider trailers all have an 80 kph limit over there. Here in the US, 75 mph freeway speeds, crosswinds and passing eighteen wheelers are going to make towing a pretty "sporty" adventure. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror. If the trailer changes lanes, try to stay in front of it ;-)

You do have to use an actual 50 mm ball. A two inch ball is too big for the clamping action and 1 7/8" is too small. Remember that it's unlikely that anyone else will be able to tow your trailer unless they also have a 50 mm ball. Order an un-plated (stainless steel) ball if possible. Chrome plating has a tendency to start flaking off under the clamping loads while turning.. Lubrication is NOT permitted, as it negates the clamping friction that controls sway. Another issue is making sure the ball CANNOT turn and loosen the nut! No matter how much torque you put on the nut, it can still get loose. In Europe, the ball must be welded to the hitch plate. I usually machined a flat spot on the base of the ball just above the threaded shank and welded a piece of steel bar stock to the hitch plate.

Hope this helps.

[2G]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 4:40:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I've installed three or four of these on Cobra trailers. Very well made and nicely designed. I put them on both single place and two seat glider trailers. They are pretty effective at controlling sway, even though the customers all tow with full-size pickups or SUVs. It definitely helps when towing with a short wheelbase vehicle.
>
> I can't say how effective they are with something like a VW Golf, (but I consider that to be too small to tow a glider anyway. Maybe the wagon, with the longer wheelbase will work better.) I know they tow with tiny vehicles in Europe, but the glider trailers all have an 80 kph limit over there. Here in the US, 75 mph freeway speeds, crosswinds and passing eighteen wheelers are going to make towing a pretty "sporty" adventure. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror. If the trailer changes lanes, try to stay in front of it ;-)
>
> You do have to use an actual 50 mm ball. A two inch ball is too big for the clamping action and 1 7/8" is too small. Remember that it's unlikely that anyone else will be able to tow your trailer unless they also have a 50 mm ball. Order an un-plated (stainless steel) ball if possible. Chrome plating has a tendency to start flaking off under the clamping loads while turning. Lubrication is NOT permitted, as it negates the clamping friction that controls sway. Another issue is making sure the ball CANNOT turn and loosen the nut! No matter how much torque you put on the nut, it can still get loose. In Europe, the ball must be welded to the hitch plate. I usually machined a flat spot on the base of the ball just above the threaded shank and welded a piece of steel bar stock to the hitch plate.
>
> Hope this helps.

80 kph is about 50 mph. Do that on Nevada's 80 mph freeways and they will be scraping you off some 18-wheeler's grill guard.

Tom

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 7:40:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I've installed three or four of these on Cobra trailers. Very well made and nicely designed. I put them on both single place and two seat glider trailers. They are pretty effective at controlling sway, even though the customers all tow with full-size pickups or SUVs. It definitely helps when towing with a short wheelbase vehicle.
>
> I can't say how effective they are with something like a VW Golf, (but I consider that to be too small to tow a glider anyway. Maybe the wagon, with the longer wheelbase will work better.) I know they tow with tiny vehicles in Europe, but the glider trailers all have an 80 kph limit over there. Here in the US, 75 mph freeway speeds, crosswinds and passing eighteen wheelers are going to make towing a pretty "sporty" adventure. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror. If the trailer changes lanes, try to stay in front of it ;-)
>
> You do have to use an actual 50 mm ball. A two inch ball is too big for the clamping action and 1 7/8" is too small. Remember that it's unlikely that anyone else will be able to tow your trailer unless they also have a 50 mm ball. Order an un-plated (stainless steel) ball if possible. Chrome plating has a tendency to start flaking off under the clamping loads while turning. Lubrication is NOT permitted, as it negates the clamping friction that controls sway. Another issue is making sure the ball CANNOT turn and loosen the nut! No matter how much torque you put on the nut, it can still get loose. In Europe, the ball must be welded to the hitch plate. I usually machined a flat spot on the base of the ball just above the threaded shank and welded a piece of steel bar stock to the hitch plate.
>
> Hope this helps.

Mark, very informative, great post.

[AS]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 8:43:52 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 4:40:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > I've installed three or four of these on Cobra trailers. Very well made and nicely designed. I put them on both single place and two seat glider trailers. They are pretty effective at controlling sway, even though the customers all tow with full-size pickups or SUVs. It definitely helps when towing with a short wheelbase vehicle.
> >
> > I can't say how effective they are with something like a VW Golf, (but I consider that to be too small to tow a glider anyway. Maybe the wagon, with the longer wheelbase will work better.) I know they tow with tiny vehicles in Europe, but the glider trailers all have an 80 kph limit over there. Here in the US, 75 mph freeway speeds, crosswinds and passing eighteen wheelers are going to make towing a pretty "sporty" adventure. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror. If the trailer changes lanes, try to stay in front of it ;-)
> >
> > You do have to use an actual 50 mm ball. A two inch ball is too big for the clamping action and 1 7/8" is too small. Remember that it's unlikely that anyone else will be able to tow your trailer unless they also have a 50 mm ball. Order an un-plated (stainless steel) ball if possible. Chrome plating has a tendency to start flaking off under the clamping loads while turning. Lubrication is NOT permitted, as it negates the clamping friction that controls sway. Another issue is making sure the ball CANNOT turn and loosen the nut! No matter how much torque you put on the nut, it can still get loose. In Europe, the ball must be welded to the hitch plate. I usually machined a flat spot on the base of the ball just above the threaded shank and welded a piece of steel bar stock to the hitch plate.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
>
> 80 kph is about 50 mph. Do that on Nevada's 80 mph freeways and they will be scraping you off some 18-wheeler's grill guard.
>
> Tom

Most modern trailers are exempt from the 80 km/h limitation and are allowed to go 100 km/h. Still not the speed some 18-wheelers do here but a big improvement for the German Autobahn.

Uli
'AS'

[2G]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 6:19:20 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 8:43:52 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 4:40:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > I've installed three or four of these on Cobra trailers. Very well made and nicely designed. I put them on both single place and two seat glider trailers. They are pretty effective at controlling sway, even though the customers all tow with full-size pickups or SUVs. It definitely helps when towing with a short wheelbase vehicle.
> > >
> > > I can't say how effective they are with something like a VW Golf, (but I consider that to be too small to tow a glider anyway. Maybe the wagon, with the longer wheelbase will work better.) I know they tow with tiny vehicles in Europe, but the glider trailers all have an 80 kph limit over there.. Here in the US, 75 mph freeway speeds, crosswinds and passing eighteen wheelers are going to make towing a pretty "sporty" adventure. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror. If the trailer changes lanes, try to stay in front of it ;-)
> > >
> > > You do have to use an actual 50 mm ball. A two inch ball is too big for the clamping action and 1 7/8" is too small. Remember that it's unlikely that anyone else will be able to tow your trailer unless they also have a 50 mm ball. Order an un-plated (stainless steel) ball if possible. Chrome plating has a tendency to start flaking off under the clamping loads while turning. Lubrication is NOT permitted, as it negates the clamping friction that controls sway. Another issue is making sure the ball CANNOT turn and loosen the nut! No matter how much torque you put on the nut, it can still get loose. In Europe, the ball must be welded to the hitch plate. I usually machined a flat spot on the base of the ball just above the threaded shank and welded a piece of steel bar stock to the hitch plate.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps.
> >
> > 80 kph is about 50 mph. Do that on Nevada's 80 mph freeways and they will be scraping you off some 18-wheeler's grill guard.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Most modern trailers are exempt from the 80 km/h limitation and are allowed to go 100 km/h. Still not the speed some 18-wheelers do here but a big improvement for the German Autobahn.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

100 kph is 62 mph - pretty slow by US standards (but not California which has a 55 mph speed limit while towing that nobody obeys).

Tom

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 9:45:25 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 6:19:20 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 8:43:52 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 4:40:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > I've installed three or four of these on Cobra trailers. Very well made and nicely designed. I put them on both single place and two seat glider trailers. They are pretty effective at controlling sway, even though the customers all tow with full-size pickups or SUVs. It definitely helps when towing with a short wheelbase vehicle.
> > > >
> > > > I can't say how effective they are with something like a VW Golf, (but I consider that to be too small to tow a glider anyway. Maybe the wagon, with the longer wheelbase will work better.) I know they tow with tiny vehicles in Europe, but the glider trailers all have an 80 kph limit over there. Here in the US, 75 mph freeway speeds, crosswinds and passing eighteen wheelers are going to make towing a pretty "sporty" adventure. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror. If the trailer changes lanes, try to stay in front of it ;-)
> > > >
> > > > You do have to use an actual 50 mm ball. A two inch ball is too big for the clamping action and 1 7/8" is too small. Remember that it's unlikely that anyone else will be able to tow your trailer unless they also have a 50 mm ball. Order an un-plated (stainless steel) ball if possible. Chrome plating has a tendency to start flaking off under the clamping loads while turning. Lubrication is NOT permitted, as it negates the clamping friction that controls sway. Another issue is making sure the ball CANNOT turn and loosen the nut! No matter how much torque you put on the nut, it can still get loose. In Europe, the ball must be welded to the hitch plate. I usually machined a flat spot on the base of the ball just above the threaded shank and welded a piece of steel bar stock to the hitch plate.
> > > >
> > > > Hope this helps.
> > >
> > > 80 kph is about 50 mph. Do that on Nevada's 80 mph freeways and they will be scraping you off some 18-wheeler's grill guard.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > Most modern trailers are exempt from the 80 km/h limitation and are allowed to go 100 km/h. Still not the speed some 18-wheelers do here but a big improvement for the German Autobahn.
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
>
> 100 kph is 62 mph - pretty slow by US standards (but not California which has a 55 mph speed limit while towing that nobody obeys).
>
> Tom

I have lived in California for 35 years. I am unaware of this "I can't drive 55" while towing law/suggestion.

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

For those that may not be familiar with the "Cobra" anti-sway coupler I believe that this thread is about the coupler manufactured by Al-Ko - https://wingsandwheels.com/cobra-anti-sway.html.

Al-Ko makes most (all?) of the "trailering" components for your Cobra trailer, tongue, surge brake, coupler, jockey wheel, axle assembly, brakes, cables, etc, etc. Primo stuff! I don't believe that Al-Ko has anything to do with the lights and wiring.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, John OHM Ω

[Tango Whisky]

> Most modern trailers are exempt from the 80 km/h limitation and are allowed to go 100 km/h. Still not the speed some 18-wheelers do here but a big improvement for the German Autobahn.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

In France, the limit is 130 kph, and I usually set my cruise control to 120 kph.

[kinsell]

On 9/4/20 9:43 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 9:45:25 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 6:19:20 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
>>> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 8:43:52 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 4:40:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>>>>> I've installed three or four of these on Cobra trailers. Very well made and nicely designed. I put them on both single place and two seat glider trailers. They are pretty effective at controlling sway, even though the customers all tow with full-size pickups or SUVs. It definitely helps when towing with a short wheelbase vehicle.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't say how effective they are with something like a VW Golf, (but I consider that to be too small to tow a glider anyway. Maybe the wagon, with the longer wheelbase will work better.) I know they tow with tiny vehicles in Europe, but the glider trailers all have an 80 kph limit over there. Here in the US, 75 mph freeway speeds, crosswinds and passing eighteen wheelers are going to make towing a pretty "sporty" adventure. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror. If the trailer changes lanes, try to stay in front of it ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> You do have to use an actual 50 mm ball. A two inch ball is too big for the clamping action and 1 7/8" is too small. Remember that it's unlikely that anyone else will be able to tow your trailer unless they also have a 50 mm ball. Order an un-plated (stainless steel) ball if possible. Chrome plating has a tendency to start flaking off under the clamping loads while turning. Lubrication is NOT permitted, as it negates the clamping friction that controls sway. Another issue is making sure the ball CANNOT turn and loosen the nut! No matter how much torque you put on the nut, it can still get loose. In Europe, the ball must be welded to the hitch plate. I usually machined a flat spot on the base of the ball just above the threaded shank and welded a piece of steel bar stock to the hitch plate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>
>>>> 80 kph is about 50 mph. Do that on Nevada's 80 mph freeways and they will be scraping you off some 18-wheeler's grill guard.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Most modern trailers are exempt from the 80 km/h limitation and are allowed to go 100 km/h. Still not the speed some 18-wheelers do here but a big improvement for the German Autobahn.
>>>
>>> Uli
>>> 'AS'
>>
>> 100 kph is 62 mph - pretty slow by US standards (but not California which has a 55 mph speed limit while towing that nobody obeys).
>>
>> Tom
>
> I have lived in California for 35 years. I am unaware of this "I can't drive 55" while towing law/suggestion.
>

You've never looked at the signs?? It's posted that way in many places,
but it's not universal.

https://www.safemotorist.com/California/Roads/speed/

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 9/4/2020 8:43 AM:
>>> Most modern trailers are exempt from the 80 km/h limitation and are allowed to go 100 km/h. Still not the speed some 18-wheelers do here but a big improvement for the German Autobahn.
>>>
>>> Uli
>>> 'AS'
>> 100 kph is 62 mph - pretty slow by US standards (but not California which has a 55 mph speed limit while towing that nobody obeys).
>>
>> Tom
> I have lived in California for 35 years. I am unaware of this "I can't drive 55" while towing law/suggestion.

It's "can't drive OVER 55", it's not a suggestion, it's been the law for decades,
and is on every highway speed sign where the . A friend of my wife paid a $150+
fine for violating it. It is surprising you aren't aware of this - perhaps you do
not tow anything? Search for "California speed limits" and you find this:

55 mph: Unless otherwise posted, the maximum speed limit is 55 mph on two-lane
undivided highways and for vehicles towing trailers.

SafeMotorist.com


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Fri, 04 Sep 2020 08:43:31 -0700, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> I have lived in California for 35 years. I am unaware of this "I can't
> drive 55" while towing law/suggestion.

A friend was pulled over for breaking it in 1993 in the Mojave, towing a
trail bike on an open-frame trailer - we were driving from Denver to Lost
Hills for the Free Flight World Champs. The cop complemented Ken for the
way it was towing but IIRC he said, in effect "...but the law is the law:
my hands are tied, bud".


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dan Marotta]

I've driven to Minden and to Bishop towing my glider and have seen the
speed limit signs:Â* Vehicles with Trailers - 55 mph.Â* It's absolutely
ridiculous, but I was also checked for bringing fruit into the state.Â*
The same state that seems to want an open southern border...

On 9/4/2020 9:43 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 9:45:25 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 6:19:20 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
>>> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 8:43:52 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 4:40:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>>>>> I've installed three or four of these on Cobra trailers. Very well made and nicely designed. I put them on both single place and two seat glider trailers. They are pretty effective at controlling sway, even though the customers all tow with full-size pickups or SUVs. It definitely helps when towing with a short wheelbase vehicle.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't say how effective they are with something like a VW Golf, (but I consider that to be too small to tow a glider anyway. Maybe the wagon, with the longer wheelbase will work better.) I know they tow with tiny vehicles in Europe, but the glider trailers all have an 80 kph limit over there. Here in the US, 75 mph freeway speeds, crosswinds and passing eighteen wheelers are going to make towing a pretty "sporty" adventure. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror. If the trailer changes lanes, try to stay in front of it ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> You do have to use an actual 50 mm ball. A two inch ball is too big for the clamping action and 1 7/8" is too small. Remember that it's unlikely that anyone else will be able to tow your trailer unless they also have a 50 mm ball. Order an un-plated (stainless steel) ball if possible. Chrome plating has a tendency to start flaking off under the clamping loads while turning. Lubrication is NOT permitted, as it negates the clamping friction that controls sway. Another issue is making sure the ball CANNOT turn and loosen the nut! No matter how much torque you put on the nut, it can still get loose. In Europe, the ball must be welded to the hitch plate. I usually machined a flat spot on the base of the ball just above the threaded shank and welded a piece of steel bar stock to the hitch plate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>> 80 kph is about 50 mph. Do that on Nevada's 80 mph freeways and they will be scraping you off some 18-wheeler's grill guard.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>> Most modern trailers are exempt from the 80 km/h limitation and are allowed to go 100 km/h. Still not the speed some 18-wheelers do here but a big improvement for the German Autobahn.
>>>
>>> Uli
>>> 'AS'
>> 100 kph is 62 mph - pretty slow by US standards (but not California which has a 55 mph speed limit while towing that nobody obeys).
>>
>> Tom
> I have lived in California for 35 years. I am unaware of this "I can't drive 55" while towing law/suggestion.

--
Dan, 5J

[kinsell]

On 9/4/20 12:08 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I've driven to Minden and to Bishop towing my glider and have seen the
> speed limit signs:Â* Vehicles with Trailers - 55 mph.Â* It's absolutely
> ridiculous, but I was also checked for bringing fruit into the state.
> The same state that seems to want an open southern border...
>

Did you see the signs warning it's illegal to have a car GPS on the
middle of the dash? Lower left or lower right corner of windshield
only! Gruesome Newsome knows what's best for you.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

kinsell wrote on 9/4/2020 11:21 AM:
> On 9/4/20 12:08 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> I've driven to Minden and to Bishop towing my glider and have seen the speed
>> limit signs:* Vehicles with Trailers - 55 mph.* It's absolutely ridiculous, but
>> I was also checked for bringing fruit into the state. The same state that seems
>> to want an open southern border...
>>
>
> Did you see the signs warning it's illegal to have a car GPS on the middle of the
> dash?* Lower left or lower right corner of windshield only!* Gruesome Newsome
> knows what's best for you.

Ram Mounts company and other entities are very clear the device can be mounted
anywhere on the dash as long as it does obstruct your view, but it can not be
mounted on the windshield unless it's in the lower left or lower right corners.

Seems reasonable to me.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 2:42:41 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> kinsell wrote on 9/4/2020 11:21 AM:
> > On 9/4/20 12:08 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> I've driven to Minden and to Bishop towing my glider and have seen the speed
> >> limit signs:Â* Vehicles with Trailers - 55 mph.Â* It's absolutely ridiculous, but
> >> I was also checked for bringing fruit into the state. The same state that seems
> >> to want an open southern border...
> >>
> >
> > Did you see the signs warning it's illegal to have a car GPS on the middle of the
> > dash?Â* Lower left or lower right corner of windshield only!Â* Gruesome Newsome
> > knows what's best for you.
>
> Ram Mounts company and other entities are very clear the device can be mounted
> anywhere on the dash as long as it does obstruct your view, but it can not be
> mounted on the windshield unless it's in the lower left or lower right corners.
>
> Seems reasonable to me.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

My car owner's manual says it is unsafe to put a GPS or phone in front of the A-pillar airbags, lest it become a lethal projectile when they go off.

[[email protected]]

Gee - I only asked about the anti-sway coupler and the thread got hijacked!

On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 2:47:13 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 2:42:41 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > kinsell wrote on 9/4/2020 11:21 AM:
> > > On 9/4/20 12:08 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >> I've driven to Minden and to Bishop towing my glider and have seen the speed
> > >> limit signs: Vehicles with Trailers - 55 mph. It's absolutely ridiculous, but
> > >> I was also checked for bringing fruit into the state. The same state that seems
> > >> to want an open southern border...
> > >>
> > >
> > > Did you see the signs warning it's illegal to have a car GPS on the middle of the
> > > dash? Lower left or lower right corner of windshield only! Gruesome Newsome
> > > knows what's best for you.
> >
> > Ram Mounts company and other entities are very clear the device can be mounted
> > anywhere on the dash as long as it does obstruct your view, but it can not be
> > mounted on the windshield unless it's in the lower left or lower right corners.
> >
> > Seems reasonable to me.
> >
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> My car owner's manual says it is unsafe to put a GPS or phone in front of the A-pillar airbags, lest it become a lethal projectile when they go off.

[Tony[_5_]]

Thread Drift on RAS, who would've thunk.

Solid advice from Mark Mocho. I've towed a lot of mostly new-ish Cobra trailers around the country at Speed Limit+5 but never more than 80 MPH (I'm looking at you Texas and Utah). None of them that I recall had the anti-sway coupler and none of them ever showed the slightest tendency to sway behind my 3.6L Subaru Outback.

On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 3:19:37 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Gee - I only asked about the anti-sway coupler and the thread got hijacked!
> On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 2:47:13 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> > On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 2:42:41 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > kinsell wrote on 9/4/2020 11:21 AM:
> > > > On 9/4/20 12:08 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > >> I've driven to Minden and to Bishop towing my glider and have seen the speed
> > > >> limit signs: Vehicles with Trailers - 55 mph. It's absolutely ridiculous, but
> > > >> I was also checked for bringing fruit into the state. The same state that seems
> > > >> to want an open southern border...
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Did you see the signs warning it's illegal to have a car GPS on the middle of the
> > > > dash? Lower left or lower right corner of windshield only! Gruesome Newsome
> > > > knows what's best for you.
> > >
> > > Ram Mounts company and other entities are very clear the device can be mounted
> > > anywhere on the dash as long as it does obstruct your view, but it can not be
> > > mounted on the windshield unless it's in the lower left or lower right corners.
> > >
> > > Seems reasonable to me.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> > My car owner's manual says it is unsafe to put a GPS or phone in front of the A-pillar airbags, lest it become a lethal projectile when they go off.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Tony wrote on 9/4/2020 1:31 PM:
> Thread Drift on RAS, who would've thunk.
>
> Solid advice from Mark Mocho. I've towed a lot of mostly new-ish Cobra trailers around the country at Speed Limit+5 but never more than 80 MPH (I'm looking at you Texas and Utah). None of them that I recall had the anti-sway coupler and none of them ever showed the slightest tendency to sway behind my 3.6L Subaru Outback.
>
I talked briefly with Keith Essex last year about his experiences towing his ASH
32Mi behind a smallish SUV. He said the Cobra coupler made the combination steady.
That's a two-seater, of course, so a more difficult task, but it shows it works.
Your car/combination may or not need the assistance of the coupler.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

> I have lived in California for 35 years. I am unaware of this "I can't drive 55" while towing law/suggestion.

There is that pesky small print on the white highway signs that start with '55'.

They seem to be posted in pairs. One for trucks, one for towing.

[[email protected]]

> I have lived in California for 35 years. I am unaware of this "I can't drive 55" while towing law/suggestion.

There is that pesky small print on the white highway signs that start with '55'.

They seem to be posted in pairs. One for trucks, one for towing.

[[email protected]]

There are a number of threads on RAS concerning vehicle size vs sway potential. The gist seems to focus on mass and wheelbase of the tow vehicle (more mass, longer wheelbase preferred), fore/aft loading of the trailer (10% of trailer weight on tongue), tire size/construction (radial vs. bias ply) and tire pressure for both the trailer and vehicle (higher pressure = stiffer sidewalls).

Of course, since this is RAS, assorted self proclaimed "engineers" will come out of the woodwork arguing the exact opposite of any of these principles.. Using their logic, the "ideal" tow vehicle is a motorized skateboard with silly-putty tires and the ass end of the trailer loaded down. But with vortex generators. Please ignore these people.

[2G]

On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 8:43:34 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 9:45:25 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 6:19:20 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 8:43:52 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 4:40:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > > I've installed three or four of these on Cobra trailers. Very well made and nicely designed. I put them on both single place and two seat glider trailers. They are pretty effective at controlling sway, even though the customers all tow with full-size pickups or SUVs. It definitely helps when towing with a short wheelbase vehicle.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can't say how effective they are with something like a VW Golf, (but I consider that to be too small to tow a glider anyway. Maybe the wagon, with the longer wheelbase will work better.) I know they tow with tiny vehicles in Europe, but the glider trailers all have an 80 kph limit over there. Here in the US, 75 mph freeway speeds, crosswinds and passing eighteen wheelers are going to make towing a pretty "sporty" adventure. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror. If the trailer changes lanes, try to stay in front of it ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > You do have to use an actual 50 mm ball. A two inch ball is too big for the clamping action and 1 7/8" is too small. Remember that it's unlikely that anyone else will be able to tow your trailer unless they also have a 50 mm ball. Order an un-plated (stainless steel) ball if possible. Chrome plating has a tendency to start flaking off under the clamping loads while turning. Lubrication is NOT permitted, as it negates the clamping friction that controls sway. Another issue is making sure the ball CANNOT turn and loosen the nut! No matter how much torque you put on the nut, it can still get loose. In Europe, the ball must be welded to the hitch plate. I usually machined a flat spot on the base of the ball just above the threaded shank and welded a piece of steel bar stock to the hitch plate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope this helps.
> > > >
> > > > 80 kph is about 50 mph. Do that on Nevada's 80 mph freeways and they will be scraping you off some 18-wheeler's grill guard.
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > >
> > > Most modern trailers are exempt from the 80 km/h limitation and are allowed to go 100 km/h. Still not the speed some 18-wheelers do here but a big improvement for the German Autobahn.
> > >
> > > Uli
> > > 'AS'
> >
> > 100 kph is 62 mph - pretty slow by US standards (but not California which has a 55 mph speed limit while towing that nobody obeys).
> >
> > Tom
>
> I have lived in California for 35 years. I am unaware of this "I can't drive 55" while towing law/suggestion.

Then, Jonathon, your eyesight has deteriorated so badly that you should immediately cease both driving and flying.

Tom

[kenward1000]

On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 4:55:40 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> There are a number of threads on RAS concerning vehicle size vs sway potential. The gist seems to focus on mass and wheelbase of the tow vehicle (more mass, longer wheelbase preferred), fore/aft loading of the trailer (10% of trailer weight on tongue), tire size/construction (radial vs. bias ply) and tire pressure for both the trailer and vehicle (higher pressure = stiffer sidewalls).
>
> Of course, since this is RAS, assorted self proclaimed "engineers" will come out of the woodwork arguing the exact opposite of any of these principles. Using their logic, the "ideal" tow vehicle is a motorized skateboard with silly-putty tires and the ass end of the trailer loaded down. But with vortex generators. Please ignore these people.

Les Sebald would swear that the optimum tow vehicle is a 74 Cadillac Coupe DeVille due to it's massive length and weight. Bonus was the luxury driver/passenger comforts plus style points.

[2G]

On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 4:55:40 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> There are a number of threads on RAS concerning vehicle size vs sway potential. The gist seems to focus on mass and wheelbase of the tow vehicle (more mass, longer wheelbase preferred), fore/aft loading of the trailer (10% of trailer weight on tongue), tire size/construction (radial vs. bias ply) and tire pressure for both the trailer and vehicle (higher pressure = stiffer sidewalls).
>
> Of course, since this is RAS, assorted self proclaimed "engineers" will come out of the woodwork arguing the exact opposite of any of these principles. Using their logic, the "ideal" tow vehicle is a motorized skateboard with silly-putty tires and the ass end of the trailer loaded down. But with vortex generators. Please ignore these people.

Sometimes pictures are better than words as it is harder to argue with what you can see with your own eyes (assuming that you can still see, unlike Jonathan):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uvPIjaK01A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCDt4tjxp-E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjZn_zQt_Q0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdmlPu33Iew
The cause of many of these accidents is pretty obvious: tow vehicle too small, very bad trailer load distribution, and speed. Others are not obvious from the video. One thing that is common: the time period between initial instability and the crash is very short, a few seconds.

Tom

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

I am all about two heavy duty crossed chains as a last line of defense. Had a glider trailer come off the ball in a patch of rough downtown Omaha construction zone (cause - underjaw not tight enough). The chains saved the day causing nothing more than a broken 4-flat cable.

I have heard that in Europe that chains are not required (not allowed?). True? Something about saving the driver by getting rid of the trailer instead of tipping over the vehicle. While I get that concept I would much rather risk my own life than injure, or kill, an innocent person hit by my trailer.


My $0.02.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote on 9/5/2020 1:33 PM:
> I am all about two heavy duty crossed chains as a last line of defense. Had a glider trailer come off the ball in a patch of rough downtown Omaha construction zone (cause - underjaw not tight enough). The chains saved the day causing nothing more than a broken 4-flat cable.
>
> I have heard that in Europe that chains are not required (not allowed?). True? Something about saving the driver by getting rid of the trailer instead of tipping over the vehicle. While I get that concept I would much rather risk my own life than injure, or kill, an innocent person hit by my trailer.

The trailers have a "break-away" cable that activates the handbrake on a Cobra
trailers, so the trailer will slow and stop. It might be better to have a loose
trailer that is braking hard, than an out of control-car-sliding around with a
trailer attached. The crossed chains you and I use is the usual recommendation,
but I doubt it would keep the trailer stable at highway speeds, even behind a
heavy, stable vehicle; instead, it is likely to begin whipping widely until you
slowed down, the chains broke, or it hit something.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 3:54:38 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote on 9/5/2020 1:33 PM:
> > I am all about two heavy duty crossed chains as a last line of defense. Had a glider trailer come off the ball in a patch of rough downtown Omaha construction zone (cause - underjaw not tight enough). The chains saved the day causing nothing more than a broken 4-flat cable.
> >
> > I have heard that in Europe that chains are not required (not allowed?).. True? Something about saving the driver by getting rid of the trailer instead of tipping over the vehicle. While I get that concept I would much rather risk my own life than injure, or kill, an innocent person hit by my trailer.
>
> The trailers have a "break-away" cable that activates the handbrake on a Cobra
> trailers, so the trailer will slow and stop. It might be better to have a loose
> trailer that is braking hard, than an out of control-car-sliding around with a
> trailer attached. The crossed chains you and I use is the usual recommendation,
> but I doubt it would keep the trailer stable at highway speeds, even behind a
> heavy, stable vehicle; instead, it is likely to begin whipping widely until you
> slowed down, the chains broke, or it hit something.
>
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Eric - While most modern glider trailers have a brake activation cable (Cobra in particular) my event was years ago while pulling a home built trailer which, unfortunately, did not have any brakes at all. I was probably going 60mph-ish (100kph-ish) when the trailer did a pretty wild dance shaking up my 2003 Nissan Pathfinder. I thought it was a flat tire. I let off on the gas (no braking initially) and coasted to a safe stop.

Maybe this is obvious but bears repeating - the point of the crossed chains is keeping the coupler off the ground. My newer Cobra trailer has a V shaped "stand" welded to the tongue's underside to also help keep the coupler off the ground. These features attempt to prevent the coupler from dragging on the pavement to avoid hitting a gap in the road's surface which can cause the trailer to come to a very abrupt stop, probably immediately severing the trailer/vehicle connection. Not good.

Still, am I right that trailer chains are not used in Europe?

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote on 9/6/2020 6:43 AM:
> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 3:54:38 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote on 9/5/2020 1:33 PM:
>>> I am all about two heavy duty crossed chains as a last line of defense. Had a glider trailer come off the ball in a patch of rough downtown Omaha construction zone (cause - underjaw not tight enough). The chains saved the day causing nothing more than a broken 4-flat cable.
>>>
>>> I have heard that in Europe that chains are not required (not allowed?).. True? Something about saving the driver by getting rid of the trailer instead of tipping over the vehicle. While I get that concept I would much rather risk my own life than injure, or kill, an innocent person hit by my trailer.
>>
>> The trailers have a "break-away" cable that activates the handbrake on a Cobra
>> trailers, so the trailer will slow and stop. It might be better to have a loose
>> trailer that is braking hard, than an out of control-car-sliding around with a
>> trailer attached. The crossed chains you and I use is the usual recommendation,
>> but I doubt it would keep the trailer stable at highway speeds, even behind a
>> heavy, stable vehicle; instead, it is likely to begin whipping widely until you
>> slowed down, the chains broke, or it hit something.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> Eric - While most modern glider trailers have a brake activation cable (Cobra in particular) my event was years ago while pulling a home built trailer which, unfortunately, did not have any brakes at all. I was probably going 60mph-ish (100kph-ish) when the trailer did a pretty wild dance shaking up my 2003 Nissan Pathfinder. I thought it was a flat tire. I let off on the gas (no braking initially) and coasted to a safe stop.
>
> Maybe this is obvious but bears repeating - the point of the crossed chains is keeping the coupler off the ground. My newer Cobra trailer has a V shaped "stand" welded to the tongue's underside to also help keep the coupler off the ground. These features attempt to prevent the coupler from dragging on the pavement to avoid hitting a gap in the road's surface which can cause the trailer to come to a very abrupt stop, probably immediately severing the trailer/vehicle connection. Not good.
>
> Still, am I right that trailer chains are not used in Europe?
>
I believe you are correct about chains, though I don't know if all the countries
in Europe are the same on this. The V shaped plate on Cobra trailers is definitely
there to protect the parking brake mechanism and to prevent the parking brake from
being released if the trailer disconnects and the tongue slides along the
pavement. It might also be intended to do as you suggest.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[AS]

> Eric - While most modern glider trailers have a brake activation cable (Cobra in particular) my event was years ago while pulling a home built trailer which, unfortunately, did not have any brakes at all. I was probably going 60mph-ish (100kph-ish) when the trailer did a pretty wild dance shaking up my 2003 Nissan Pathfinder. I thought it was a flat tire. I let off on the gas (no braking initially) and coasted to a safe stop.
>
> Maybe this is obvious but bears repeating - the point of the crossed chains is keeping the coupler off the ground. My newer Cobra trailer has a V shaped "stand" welded to the tongue's underside to also help keep the coupler off the ground. These features attempt to prevent the coupler from dragging on the pavement to avoid hitting a gap in the road's surface which can cause the trailer to come to a very abrupt stop, probably immediately severing the trailer/vehicle connection. Not good.
>
> Still, am I right that trailer chains are not used in Europe?

Eric - the first time I saw these chains on glider- or any other trailer was here in the US. All countries I traveled in in Europe do not require chains but I am not aware of any rules to the contrary. The red breakaway cable found on the Cobra trailers is pretty much the standard over there.
Inversely, the thing that is not known over in Europe are electric brakes. I have never seen them before nor do I think they are legal there.

Uli
'AS'

[2G]

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 8:07:29 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > Eric - While most modern glider trailers have a brake activation cable (Cobra in particular) my event was years ago while pulling a home built trailer which, unfortunately, did not have any brakes at all. I was probably going 60mph-ish (100kph-ish) when the trailer did a pretty wild dance shaking up my 2003 Nissan Pathfinder. I thought it was a flat tire. I let off on the gas (no braking initially) and coasted to a safe stop.
> >
> > Maybe this is obvious but bears repeating - the point of the crossed chains is keeping the coupler off the ground. My newer Cobra trailer has a V shaped "stand" welded to the tongue's underside to also help keep the coupler off the ground. These features attempt to prevent the coupler from dragging on the pavement to avoid hitting a gap in the road's surface which can cause the trailer to come to a very abrupt stop, probably immediately severing the trailer/vehicle connection. Not good.
> >
> > Still, am I right that trailer chains are not used in Europe?
>
> Eric - the first time I saw these chains on glider- or any other trailer was here in the US. All countries I traveled in in Europe do not require chains but I am not aware of any rules to the contrary. The red breakaway cable found on the Cobra trailers is pretty much the standard over there.
> Inversely, the thing that is not known over in Europe are electric brakes.. I have never seen them before nor do I think they are legal there.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

Here is an article on "caravaning" in Europe (known as RVing in the US):
https://gurucamper.com/camping/caravan-what-you-need-to-know/

Notice that the very first photo shows a trailer w/o chains.

[2G]

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 8:59:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 8:07:29 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > > Eric - While most modern glider trailers have a brake activation cable (Cobra in particular) my event was years ago while pulling a home built trailer which, unfortunately, did not have any brakes at all. I was probably going 60mph-ish (100kph-ish) when the trailer did a pretty wild dance shaking up my 2003 Nissan Pathfinder. I thought it was a flat tire. I let off on the gas (no braking initially) and coasted to a safe stop.
> > >
> > > Maybe this is obvious but bears repeating - the point of the crossed chains is keeping the coupler off the ground. My newer Cobra trailer has a V shaped "stand" welded to the tongue's underside to also help keep the coupler off the ground. These features attempt to prevent the coupler from dragging on the pavement to avoid hitting a gap in the road's surface which can cause the trailer to come to a very abrupt stop, probably immediately severing the trailer/vehicle connection. Not good.
> > >
> > > Still, am I right that trailer chains are not used in Europe?
> >
> > Eric - the first time I saw these chains on glider- or any other trailer was here in the US. All countries I traveled in in Europe do not require chains but I am not aware of any rules to the contrary. The red breakaway cable found on the Cobra trailers is pretty much the standard over there.
> > Inversely, the thing that is not known over in Europe are electric brakes. I have never seen them before nor do I think they are legal there.
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
>
> Here is an article on "caravaning" in Europe (known as RVing in the US):
> https://gurucamper.com/camping/caravan-what-you-need-to-know/
>
> Notice that the very first photo shows a trailer w/o chains.

And here are the European speed limits for vehicles towing trailers:
https://www.theaa.ie/aa/motoring-advice/driving-in-europe/speed-limit-notes..aspx

[andy l]

On Monday, 7 September 2020 at 06:25:32 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> And here are the European speed limits for vehicles towing trailers:
> https://www.theaa.ie/aa/motoring-advice/driving-in-europe/speed-limit-notes.aspxaspx

Limits are not the same everywhere, and that reads as if it's about one country.

[Stephen Struthers]

At 06:45 07 September 2020, andy l wrote:
On Monday, 7 September 2020 at 06:25:32 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
And here are the European speed limits for vehicles towing trailers:

https://www.theaa.ie/aa/motoring-advice/driving-in-europe/speed-
limit-notes.aspxaspx

Limits are not the same everywhere, and that reads as if it's about one
country.

When you live in a country that is only 900 miles long and say 150 wide
then speed is not much of an issue. I would imagine very few glider
retrieves are longer than 100 miles round trip. People do travel from
the South of England to the Highlands of scotland to fly on "Camps" but
I would be surprised if any have a journey greater than 600 miles.

The bigger issue with trailers here I think is the number of poorly
maintained wooden trailers that are still around.

[Aldo Cernezzi]

I've been towing an Arcus M in Cobra trailer for years, using a compact Ford C-max 1.6 TDCI. Speed limit in Italy is 80kph on highways. Occasionally (as in France where it's legal, let's say), I drove at 125 kph or higher with no problems at all. One must be experienced and use the steering wheel with extreme care. Overtaking semitrailer trucks (they actually drive not any faster than 85 kph GS) requires careful planning and... some cool blood.

please not that European towing bars (except maybe in UK) are very expensive at about 1800 USD with installation, they come to the market only after certification, are installed by few authorised stations, and require a technical inspection by the national authorities before you can hitch anything to it. I've never seen a tow ball coming off a vehicle, not even after 30 years in service.

AFAIK, chains are prohibited in Italy and Europe, as any other accessories which may cause injuries to pedestrians.

ciao,
Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it

[Aldo Cernezzi]

Truck drivers cruise through all of Europe respecting the 80 kph limit. Well, they use 80+5 for non-penalized tolerance, +3% for measuring devices tolerance. You'll see they hold a steady 88 km/h GPS ground-speed all the way.
They also respect rest and sleep rules, getting long pauses in the parking areas.
Many of them leave from Latvia, go to Turkey, then to Denmark, and back.

Speed limits may be annoying, but if enforced, they are respected.

Ciao,
Aldo



>When you live in a country that is only 900 miles long and say 150 wide
>then speed is not much of an issue. I would imagine very few glider
>retrieves are longer than 100 miles round trip. People do travel from
>the South of England to the Highlands of scotland to fly on "Camps" but
>I would be surprised if any have a journey greater than 600 miles.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Aldo Cernezzi wrote on 9/7/2020 5:55 AM:
> please not that European towing bars (except maybe in UK) are very expensive at about 1800 USD with installation, they come to the market only after certification, are installed by few authorised stations, and require a technical inspection by the national authorities before you can hitch anything to it. I've never seen a tow ball coming off a vehicle, not even after 30 years in service.

My understanding is the ball in Europe is an integral part of the hitch, and not
bolted on like they are in the US; nonetheless, in the US it is usually the
trailer coming off the ball, not the ball coming off the hitch, that causes a
disconnect from the towing vehicle.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

The weak point in most ball hitches is wear or poor adjustment of the lower jaw on the hitch coupler. If you can lift the hitch more than about an eighth of an inch and feel the coupler "rattle" on the ball, it is probably too loose. You can generally tighten the locking nut on the jaw to reduce the play. Just don't get it too tight- you need to have it to a point where it just barely slips over the ball but does not actually clamp tightly.

While looking under there (which most people never do), check to see if the jaw shows wear. If the wear is excessive, it might not grip enough of the lower curve of the ball and allow your trailer to go cruising off on its own. Chains are supposed to prevent this, but it's better to avoid the issue altogether.

One thing I see too often is a situation where somebody tries to use a two inch coupler on a 1 7/8" ball. That's just asking for trouble!

[Stephen Struthers]

My understanding is the ball in Europe is an integral part of the hitch,
and not bolted on like they are in the US; nonetheless, in the US it is
usually the trailer coming off the ball, not the ball coming off the hitch,

that causes a disconnect from the towing vehicle.

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me) "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-
guide-1


Not sure about the rest of Europe but in UK tow balls can be of the bolt
on type. You do find more and more manufacturers of cars will provide
a detachable "swan neck" tow hitch

[Nick Hoare[_2_]]

To get back to the original posters question the only thing I would say is
that really they are for make a good combination better not a bad
combination good. If it is not safe without an anti-sway hitch it probably
won't be safe with one, you will just be going a bit faster when it all
goes wrong.

[Nick Hoare[_2_]]

To get back to the original posters question the only thing I would say is
that really they are for make a good combination better not a bad
combination good. If it is not safe without an anti-sway hitch it probably
won't be safe with one, you will just be going a bit faster when it all
goes wrong.

[[email protected]]

Similar Topic so figured I'd ask here rather than post a new thread.

Avoiding trailer sway by making sure there is enough weight at the front of the trailer is clearly stability enhancing as demonstrated in this video.

https://youtu.be/4jk9H5AB4lM

Does anyone know how much benefit might be obtained by increasing the weight at the back of the towing vehicle? If using a pickup truck, would adding a couple hundred pounds of weight at the very back of the pickup bed also add some stability, or is additional weight only helpful if it's behind the pivot point?

G

[[email protected]]

On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 11:30:06 AM UTC-6, Nick Hoare wrote:
> To get back to the original posters question the only thing I would say is
> that really they are for make a good combination better not a bad
> combination good. If it is not safe without an anti-sway hitch it probably
> won't be safe with one, you will just be going a bit faster when it all
> goes wrong.

Nick is entirely correct. You can't fix an unstable trailer with an antisway device, but you can make up for a (slightly) unsatisfactory tow vehicle. Once again, MASS + longer wheelbase = better stability. And adding weight to the tow vehicle does NOTHING to increase the stability of the trailer, and the higher loading on the vehicle's rear wheels is likely to make a sway problem worse. (Think: Moment of Inertia.)

That being said, some weight on a lightly loaded rear axle will help with traction, but not stability.

[GliderCZ]

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 4:40:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I've installed three or four of these on Cobra trailers. Very well made and nicely designed. I put them on both single place and two seat glider trailers. They are pretty effective at controlling sway, even though the customers all tow with full-size pickups or SUVs. It definitely helps when towing with a short wheelbase vehicle.
>
> I can't say how effective they are with something like a VW Golf, (but I consider that to be too small to tow a glider anyway. Maybe the wagon, with the longer wheelbase will work better.) I know they tow with tiny vehicles in Europe, but the glider trailers all have an 80 kph limit over there. Here in the US, 75 mph freeway speeds, crosswinds and passing eighteen wheelers are going to make towing a pretty "sporty" adventure. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror. If the trailer changes lanes, try to stay in front of it ;-)
>
> You do have to use an actual 50 mm ball. A two inch ball is too big for the clamping action and 1 7/8" is too small. Remember that it's unlikely that anyone else will be able to tow your trailer unless they also have a 50 mm ball. Order an un-plated (stainless steel) ball if possible. Chrome plating has a tendency to start flaking off under the clamping loads while turning. Lubrication is NOT permitted, as it negates the clamping friction that controls sway. Another issue is making sure the ball CANNOT turn and loosen the nut! No matter how much torque you put on the nut, it can still get loose. In Europe, the ball must be welded to the hitch plate. I usually machined a flat spot on the base of the ball just above the threaded shank and welded a piece of steel bar stock to the hitch plate.
>
> Hope this helps.

I believe it may be important to get a "high profile" ball. These have more clearance between the bottom of the ball and the hitch plate. The anti-sway friction coupler itself is broader across than the typical non-friction coupler, so may hit the hitch plate when the trailer tilts to the side relative to the tow vehicle.

[[email protected]]

> I believe it may be important to get a "high profile" ball. These have more clearance between the bottom of the ball and the hitch plate. The anti-sway friction coupler itself is broader across than the typical non-friction coupler, so may hit the hitch plate when the trailer tilts to the side relative to the tow vehicle.

Valid point, but, so far I have not seen any interference issues. Of course, I have only used these on receiver hitches. The hitch plate is only slightly wider than the base of the ball. If it was on a flat, wide surface (like a bumper mount) you might have clearance issues if the vehicle tilts significantly relative to the trailer (or vice versa). I believe the AlKo documentation specifies permissible limits on the angles involved.

Also, many receiver hitches have a significant amount of play between the inserted hitch tube and the receiver. This "slop" can exacerbate sway. I recommend any of these to remove the play:

https://www.etrailer.com/s.aspx?qry=Hitch+Receiver+Clamp&furl=-pg-Hitch_Anti%7eRattle

[2G]

On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 5:55:57 AM UTC-7, Aldo Cernezzi wrote:
> I've been towing an Arcus M in Cobra trailer for years, using a compact Ford C-max 1.6 TDCI. Speed limit in Italy is 80kph on highways. Occasionally (as in France where it's legal, let's say), I drove at 125 kph or higher with no problems at all. One must be experienced and use the steering wheel with extreme care. Overtaking semitrailer trucks (they actually drive not any faster than 85 kph GS) requires careful planning and... some cool blood.

Have you weighed your trailer (including all accessories and other cargo)? Your trailer may weigh as much, or more, than your car. The heavier the trailer the more unstable the combination becomes.

>
> please not that European towing bars (except maybe in UK) are very expensive at about 1800 USD with installation, they come to the market only after certification, are installed by few authorised stations, and require a technical inspection by the national authorities before you can hitch anything to it. I've never seen a tow ball coming off a vehicle, not even after 30 years in service.
Never under-estimate the ability of bureaucrats to make anything cost 4-5 times what it is worth.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 9/7/2020 2:51 PM:
> On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 11:30:06 AM UTC-6, Nick Hoare wrote:
>> To get back to the original posters question the only thing I would say is
>> that really they are for make a good combination better not a bad
>> combination good. If it is not safe without an anti-sway hitch it probably
>> won't be safe with one, you will just be going a bit faster when it all
>> goes wrong.
>
> Nick is entirely correct. You can't fix an unstable trailer with an antisway device, but you can make up for a (slightly) unsatisfactory tow vehicle. Once again, MASS + longer wheelbase = better stability. And adding weight to the tow vehicle does NOTHING to increase the stability of the trailer, and the higher loading on the vehicle's rear wheels is likely to make a sway problem worse. (Think: Moment of Inertia.)
>
> That being said, some weight on a lightly loaded rear axle will help with traction, but not stability.

Generally, it's the characteristics of the tow vehicle and trailer that determines
the stability of the combination. We all know a trailer might tow better with one
vehicle but not the other one. My motorhome and mini-van illustrate this principle
well: the motorhome can tow the trailer much faster for the same wiggle than the
van can.

So, by adding weight to the tow vehicle (usually between the axles but favoring
the rear axle), then raising the tire pressures to match the new weight, can yield
a more stable combination. Using a friction damping device like the Cobra clamp
coupler can also increase the stability of the combination. There are other
devices to increase the damping that are frequently used on travel trailers, but
the Cobra unit is easy to use.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 9/7/2020 3:31 PM:
>
>> I believe it may be important to get a "high profile" ball. These have more clearance between the bottom of the ball and the hitch plate. The anti-sway friction coupler itself is broader across than the typical non-friction coupler, so may hit the hitch plate when the trailer tilts to the side relative to the tow vehicle.
>
> Valid point, but, so far I have not seen any interference issues. Of course, I have only used these on receiver hitches. The hitch plate is only slightly wider than the base of the ball. If it was on a flat, wide surface (like a bumper mount) you might have clearance issues if the vehicle tilts significantly relative to the trailer (or vice versa). I believe the AlKo documentation specifies permissible limits on the angles involved.
>
> Also, many receiver hitches have a significant amount of play between the inserted hitch tube and the receiver. This "slop" can exacerbate sway. I recommend any of these to remove the play:
>
> https://www.etrailer.com/s.aspx?qry=Hitch+Receiver+Clamp&furl=-pg-Hitch_Anti%7eRattle

I use the style with the U-bolt for the ball mount on my van, which raised the
"safe" speed about 5 mph. I was surprised it was so effective, but I do have a
particularly tall and wobbly ball mount.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 4:36:06 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> wrote on 9/7/2020 2:51 PM:
> > On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 11:30:06 AM UTC-6, Nick Hoare wrote:
> >> To get back to the original posters question the only thing I would say is
> >> that really they are for make a good combination better not a bad
> >> combination good. If it is not safe without an anti-sway hitch it probably
> >> won't be safe with one, you will just be going a bit faster when it all
> >> goes wrong.
> >
> > Nick is entirely correct. You can't fix an unstable trailer with an antisway device, but you can make up for a (slightly) unsatisfactory tow vehicle. Once again, MASS + longer wheelbase = better stability. And adding weight to the tow vehicle does NOTHING to increase the stability of the trailer, and the higher loading on the vehicle's rear wheels is likely to make a sway problem worse. (Think: Moment of Inertia.)
> >
> > That being said, some weight on a lightly loaded rear axle will help with traction, but not stability.
>
> Generally, it's the characteristics of the tow vehicle and trailer that determines
> the stability of the combination. We all know a trailer might tow better with one
> vehicle but not the other one. My motorhome and mini-van illustrate this principle
> well: the motorhome can tow the trailer much faster for the same wiggle than the
> van can.
>
> So, by adding weight to the tow vehicle (usually between the axles but favoring
> the rear axle), then raising the tire pressures to match the new weight, can yield
> a more stable combination. Using a friction damping device like the Cobra clamp
> coupler can also increase the stability of the combination. There are other
> devices to increase the damping that are frequently used on travel trailers, but
> the Cobra unit is easy to use.
>
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Adding weight to the tow vehicle won't much difference except to slow down its rate of acceleration. This is because the suspension and tires aren't designed to handle this extra weight. A trailer-vehicle combination is a very complex spring-mass mechanical system. Such systems will have a natural resonant frequency. This paper gives an idea of just how complex these systems are:
https://tinyurl.com/yylt9uj3
The bottom line is that the critical speed, above which the car-trailer combination becomes unstable, is determined by:
1. mass of the car.
2. mass of the trailer.
3. distance of the hitch from the CG of the car.
4. damping provided by the car and trailer suspension.
The car's manufacturer has already taken all of this into account to come up with (2) the maximum mass of the trailer (they will have to estimate the trailer's suspension damping). Eric's suggestion was to add weight to the car to move the CG rearward. This is a self-limiting trick because you are always dealing with the maximum combined vehicle weight, which you will be pushing with these smaller cars.

There are suspension mods you can make to increase the stiffness (damping) of the suspension. Of course, increasing tire pressure increases their stiffness, which is important. Personally, I have added airbags to my F250 pickup for towing a travel trailer that can weigh upwards of 10,000 lb fully loaded.

Ultimately, there is a speed above which the car-trailer combination becomes unstable. Driving at this speed means you have no stability margin and a disturbance (wind gust, sudden steering movement, passing truck) will make you unstable. You can't recover from this - it happens too fast and steering/braking inputs just make it worse (see the videos). So you need to drive at a slower speed to give yourself some margin, probably at least 10 mph slower.

Tom

[RR]

One adisional factor is the distance of the hitch from the rear axle. Less is more. In a perfect world you would put the pivot point between the rear wheels of the tow vehicle. There are two hitches for travel trailers that atempt to achive/simulate this. The Hensley does it with some fancy linkages, but eliminates the tow ball as a result. But in any event, some tow vehicle mass can be replaced with tow geometry. Not that I am recommending this, but I have seen a duo towed with a VW bottle. I towed a 304cz with a bottle, and the safe speed iwas about 10mph slower than my ukonxl. The upon was 2 x the mass, but much farther from the axle to the hitch

[[email protected]]

You REALLY need to get glasses. Or a bigger keyboard. Some parts of this post looks like a Google Translation from Klingon.

VW bottle?

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 9/7/2020 9:31 PM:
> On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 4:36:06 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> wrote on 9/7/2020 2:51 PM:
>>> On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 11:30:06 AM UTC-6, Nick Hoare wrote:
>>>> To get back to the original posters question the only thing I would say is
>>>> that really they are for make a good combination better not a bad
>>>> combination good. If it is not safe without an anti-sway hitch it probably
>>>> won't be safe with one, you will just be going a bit faster when it all
>>>> goes wrong.
>>>
>>> Nick is entirely correct. You can't fix an unstable trailer with an antisway device, but you can make up for a (slightly) unsatisfactory tow vehicle. Once again, MASS + longer wheelbase = better stability. And adding weight to the tow vehicle does NOTHING to increase the stability of the trailer, and the higher loading on the vehicle's rear wheels is likely to make a sway problem worse. (Think: Moment of Inertia.)
>>>
>>> That being said, some weight on a lightly loaded rear axle will help with traction, but not stability.
>>
>> Generally, it's the characteristics of the tow vehicle and trailer that determines
>> the stability of the combination. We all know a trailer might tow better with one
>> vehicle but not the other one. My motorhome and mini-van illustrate this principle
>> well: the motorhome can tow the trailer much faster for the same wiggle than the
>> van can.
>>
>> So, by adding weight to the tow vehicle (usually between the axles but favoring
>> the rear axle), then raising the tire pressures to match the new weight, can yield
>> a more stable combination. Using a friction damping device like the Cobra clamp
>> coupler can also increase the stability of the combination. There are other
>> devices to increase the damping that are frequently used on travel trailers, but
>> the Cobra unit is easy to use.
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> Adding weight to the tow vehicle won't much difference except to slow down its rate of acceleration. This is because the suspension and tires aren't designed to handle this extra weight. A trailer-vehicle combination is a very complex spring-mass mechanical system. Such systems will have a natural

... Eric's suggestion was to add weight to the car to move the CG rearward. This
is a self-limiting trick because you are always dealing with the maximum combined
vehicle weight, which you will be pushing with these smaller cars.
>
My suggestion was in the context of towing with a pickup or a minivan, both of
which can have a wide range of weight from empty to fully laden; for my minivan,
that is over 1000 pounds, and the pickups I've owned it can be as much as 3000
lbs. So, it is possible to add significant weight to these vehicles, which can aid
in increasing the stability of the vehicle/trailer combination, and still obey the
vehicle weight ratings. Please note I'm not saying this is the best way to achieve
higher-speed stability, but only that it is a workable method.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Dan Marotta]

I wonder if this would sway... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6HOXghLG94

On 9/8/2020 5:08 AM, RR wrote:
> One adisional factor is the distance of the hitch from the rear axle. Less is more. In a perfect world you would put the pivot point between the rear wheels of the tow vehicle. There are two hitches for travel trailers that atempt to achive/simulate this. The Hensley does it with some fancy linkages, but eliminates the tow ball as a result. But in any event, some tow vehicle mass can be replaced with tow geometry. Not that I am recommending this, but I have seen a duo towed with a VW bottle. I towed a 304cz with a bottle, and the safe speed iwas about 10mph slower than my ukonxl. The upon was 2 x the mass, but much farther from the axle to the hitch

--
Dan, 5J

[2G]

On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 9:02:37 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 9/7/2020 9:31 PM:
> > On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 4:36:06 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> wrote on 9/7/2020 2:51 PM:
> >>> On Monday, September 7, 2020 at 11:30:06 AM UTC-6, Nick Hoare wrote:
> >>>> To get back to the original posters question the only thing I would say is
> >>>> that really they are for make a good combination better not a bad
> >>>> combination good. If it is not safe without an anti-sway hitch it probably
> >>>> won't be safe with one, you will just be going a bit faster when it all
> >>>> goes wrong.
> >>>
> >>> Nick is entirely correct. You can't fix an unstable trailer with an antisway device, but you can make up for a (slightly) unsatisfactory tow vehicle. Once again, MASS + longer wheelbase = better stability. And adding weight to the tow vehicle does NOTHING to increase the stability of the trailer, and the higher loading on the vehicle's rear wheels is likely to make a sway problem worse. (Think: Moment of Inertia.)
> >>>
> >>> That being said, some weight on a lightly loaded rear axle will help with traction, but not stability.
> >>
> >> Generally, it's the characteristics of the tow vehicle and trailer that determines
> >> the stability of the combination. We all know a trailer might tow better with one
> >> vehicle but not the other one. My motorhome and mini-van illustrate this principle
> >> well: the motorhome can tow the trailer much faster for the same wiggle than the
> >> van can.
> >>
> >> So, by adding weight to the tow vehicle (usually between the axles but favoring
> >> the rear axle), then raising the tire pressures to match the new weight, can yield
> >> a more stable combination. Using a friction damping device like the Cobra clamp
> >> coupler can also increase the stability of the combination. There are other
> >> devices to increase the damping that are frequently used on travel trailers, but
> >> the Cobra unit is easy to use.
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >
> > Adding weight to the tow vehicle won't much difference except to slow down its rate of acceleration. This is because the suspension and tires aren't designed to handle this extra weight. A trailer-vehicle combination is a very complex spring-mass mechanical system. Such systems will have a natural
>
> ... Eric's suggestion was to add weight to the car to move the CG rearward. This
> is a self-limiting trick because you are always dealing with the maximum combined
> vehicle weight, which you will be pushing with these smaller cars.
> >
> My suggestion was in the context of towing with a pickup or a minivan, both of
> which can have a wide range of weight from empty to fully laden; for my minivan,
> that is over 1000 pounds, and the pickups I've owned it can be as much as 3000
> lbs. So, it is possible to add significant weight to these vehicles, which can aid
> in increasing the stability of the vehicle/trailer combination, and still obey the
> vehicle weight ratings. Please note I'm not saying this is the best way to achieve
> higher-speed stability, but only that it is a workable method.
>
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

It is important to actually weigh the loaded tow vehicle and trailer to ensure that you are within the GCVW - most people don't. This rating is NOT arbitrary. I actually had one manager of an RV trailer dealership tell me I could exceed the rated tow capacity by a large amount!

Tom

[2G]

On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 10:26:49 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I wonder if this would sway... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6HOXghLG94
>
> On 9/8/2020 5:08 AM, RR wrote:
> > One adisional factor is the distance of the hitch from the rear axle. Less is more. In a perfect world you would put the pivot point between the rear wheels of the tow vehicle. There are two hitches for travel trailers that atempt to achive/simulate this. The Hensley does it with some fancy linkages, but eliminates the tow ball as a result. But in any event, some tow vehicle mass can be replaced with tow geometry. Not that I am recommending this, but I have seen a duo towed with a VW bottle. I towed a 304cz with a bottle, and the safe speed iwas about 10mph slower than my ukonxl. The upon was 2 x the mass, but much farther from the axle to the hitch
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

At only 50 hp I wouldn't be taking it in the mountains (or hills, for that matter).

Tom

[[email protected]]

Gotta admit, it's a pretty cute idea. (Horsepower deficiency aside.)