Powersonic "Smart Battery" tested

[jfitch]

It seems like a nice concept and I was recommending others try so I thought I should too.

https://www.power-sonic.com/batteries/lithium-bluetooth-series/

I bought the 12120 which is 12.5AH to replace my StarkPower 12AH (which after 6 years use still tests at 11.9 AH). The Powersonic is available in the typical glider sizes. You can find them at almost any price, I purchased the 12120 at Battery Web for $106. Could be had elsewhere for over $400. So shop.

What is "smart" about it? It has a BMS with shunt and Bluetooth radio, a free app for iPhone or Android gives you some basic info: voltage, current, and State Of Charge. Each battery has a unique address and the app will let you access several so multiple battery installs are possible.

I tested it though a couple of cycles with the Western Radio battery tester and some lab equipment. The voltage and current reported by the app were accurate (both reported in tenths). The SOC (reported as a percentage of capacity) was also accurate compared to actual AH drawn or delivered from/to the battery. This SOC is not a guess from voltage, but a real measurement from Coulomb counting. The AH capacity was at least as claimed (my battery ran 501 minutes at 1.5A draw, terminated at 11.5V). I flew a few days with it as well.

Why would you want this? They are no more expensive than others (perhaps less). With a couple of clicks on your phone you can determine the SOC. Also current draw, which can be useful for in situ diagnostics. One day I flew, I noticed that the voltage (reported on other instruments) was low, brought up the app on my phone and confirmed that I had taken off with it at 54% SOC - due to an operator error in charging overnight. But I at least knew I could fly the rest of the day, guessed what I'd done wrong, etc. More information is always better than less. It would be even better with a more sophisticated app, like Victron has for there stuff, but it is interesting as it is.

[krasw]

This is just fantastic idea. What I would like to have is a bluetooth/processor chip unit that you mount on any battery (SLA, LFP, whatever), and then monitor all your batteries status via app. There is no reason to built it inside battery. Integrate fuse holder, quality connector and you have everything.

[[email protected]]

I've been flying with the Powersonic PSL-BTL-1290 Iron Phosphate battery for about 6 months now. Same size as a 9 AHr Lead Acid battery so it fits in a Dittel battery box. It's rated at 9 AHr but tested on a Western Radio battery tester it achieves 10.4 Ahr (which is what the battery is reporting.) I especially like that it can measure and report discharge rate so you can anticipate run time. You can give each battery a unique name so that when using the app, you can select your battery from the others on the line. I've set 2 of our club gliders up with these batteries and a number of club members are beginning to use them. The battery uses a TI Bluetooth system (as determined by the MAC address) and likely a TI Battery Management Unit. As reported it the measurement system seems to be quite accurate.

Danny Brotto
LS-8/18 "P6"

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 12:43:31 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
> This is just fantastic idea. What I would like to have is a bluetooth/processor chip unit that you mount on any battery (SLA, LFP, whatever), and then monitor all your batteries status via app. There is no reason to built it inside battery. Integrate fuse holder, quality connector and you have everything.

There are advantages to having it in the battery: it can report SOC per battery, the BMS is already there doing the measurements, and the cost is essentially free. However there is a device which does exactly what you want:

https://www.thornwave.com/collections/smart-products/products/bluetooth-battery-monitor-dc-power-meter

I also have one of these. One drawback is it must be powered to retain the history, so if you remove the battery from your glider you lose that history. Another advantage of having it in the battery. They are claiming to fix this in a future firmware release.

[[email protected]]

I wonder how much of a current draw the bluetooth feature is.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 7:37:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I wonder how much of a current draw the bluetooth feature is.

Probably very little. If you turn on Bluetooth in your phone, do you notice much of a reduction in the battery life? And this is a much larger battery.

But yeah the only advantage of having this feature, to my mind, is the (potential) ability to monitor the individual cells within the battery. Other than that, I use a charger that tells me how much charge (amp-hours) go into the battery, and it should correspond to how long I used it in the glider.. And my current 12 amp-hour LiFePO4 battery has so much capacity relative to my avionics' needs that even if I forgot to charge it since the last flight it would still easily last for the current flight. Your situation may differ, especially if you have a transponder.

[[email protected]]

The bluetooth feature is a gimmick. What really makes these attractive is that they are about 1/2 the price of equivalent the K2 battery!

[[email protected]]

, I use a charger that tells me how much charge (amp-hours) go into the battery, and it should correspond to how long I used it in the glider.

What charger do you use??

Thanks

Kevin
92

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 7:37:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I wonder how much of a current draw the bluetooth feature is.

The Bluetooth feature in the battery is BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) and works by sending out small packets of data every few seconds. The infrequency of these transmission results in a very low overall current drain, probably on the order of 10 micro amps.

The phone app "listens" for these pings and can make a connection to the battery. While that connection is held, the current consumption typically goes up to the 10 milliamp range. These connections happen when the user uses the app to check the battery status. Eventually the connection is broken and the current consumption reverts to the 10 micro amps.

When the app is active on the phone, it has to constantly scan (listen) for transmitted packets so the Bluetooth is on and consuming energy from the phone battery. So yes, the phone battery is affected when the app is running.. After the app goes into the background the phone operating system typically suspends the BLE scanning so the current consumption due to the scanning goes away.

Danny Brotto

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 7:08:06 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> , I use a charger that tells me how much charge (amp-hours) go into the battery, and it should correspond to how long I used it in the glider.
>
> What charger do you use??
>
> Thanks
>
> Kevin
> 92

Imax B6. There are various versions, you can find one on ebay for $30 or so. It is a very versatile device, can handle batteries of various chemistries, test discharge capacity, etc. Thanks T8 for the tip.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 7:45:13 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 7:37:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > I wonder how much of a current draw the bluetooth feature is.
>
> The Bluetooth feature in the battery is BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) and works by sending out small packets of data every few seconds. The infrequency of these transmission results in a very low overall current drain, probably on the order of 10 micro amps.
>
> The phone app "listens" for these pings and can make a connection to the battery. While that connection is held, the current consumption typically goes up to the 10 milliamp range. These connections happen when the user uses the app to check the battery status. Eventually the connection is broken and the current consumption reverts to the 10 micro amps.
>
> When the app is active on the phone, it has to constantly scan (listen) for transmitted packets so the Bluetooth is on and consuming energy from the phone battery. So yes, the phone battery is affected when the app is running. After the app goes into the background the phone operating system typically suspends the BLE scanning so the current consumption due to the scanning goes away.
>
> Danny Brotto

When I use the GliderLink app on a phone, communicating with the goTenna device via BLE, several hours of use only drain a minority of the phone's battery capacity, and most of that is not for the Bluetooth. (I try and turn off the phone screen when I'm not looking at it, I wish the app would have the option to let the screen time out and go blank on its own.)

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 12:48:52 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> The bluetooth feature is a gimmick. What really makes these attractive is that they are about 1/2 the price of equivalent the K2 battery!

Some months ago I bought several "PowerSync" (related to "PowerSonic"?) LFP batteries, the non-smart version (no Bluetooth), for about $32 each, from a US seller on ebay. Rated 7.5 AH, and the same standard "brick" size as the common 7AH SLA batteries. At that price, they are cheaper than SLAs (since they will last at least twice as many years). I cut one open, so I can tell you that (1) the ones sold at that price were 2 years old when sold (date stamped late 2017), not great but no big deal, (2) the cells are the small 18650 size, like the ones used in laptop batteries (but LFP chemistry in this case), and (3) yes it includes a full BMS including cell balancing. I've used them in an electric bicycle and in an electric mower, so I can report they work OK in high-drain use (but the BMS shuts off at about 20 amps). In the glider I prefer the larger 12AH battery, but one of these smaller 7.5AH ones is my standard backup plan.

Note that a "7AH" SLA battery that is 2-3 years old will only give you about 3 AH or so if you don't want to damage it by fully discharging it, and the voltage will be pretty low by then. Tested one of these 7.5 AH LFPs by discharging 6 AH out of it, voltage was still well over 13V. The spec sheet claims they are "designed to work with AGM chargers", so you don't even need a new charger if you switch to them from SLAs, although something like the Imax B6 is better.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> The bluetooth feature is a gimmick. What really makes these attractive is that they are about 1/2 the price of equivalent the K2 battery!

Not sure why anyone would pay $150 for a K2 Battery.

Richard

[jfitch]

On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 6:55:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 12:48:52 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > The bluetooth feature is a gimmick. What really makes these attractive is that they are about 1/2 the price of equivalent the K2 battery!
> Some months ago I bought several "PowerSync" (related to "PowerSonic"?) LFP batteries, the non-smart version (no Bluetooth), for about $32 each, from a US seller on ebay. Rated 7.5 AH, and the same standard "brick" size as the common 7AH SLA batteries. At that price, they are cheaper than SLAs (since they will last at least twice as many years). I cut one open, so I can tell you that (1) the ones sold at that price were 2 years old when sold (date stamped late 2017), not great but no big deal, (2) the cells are the small 18650 size, like the ones used in laptop batteries (but LFP chemistry in this case), and (3) yes it includes a full BMS including cell balancing. I've used them in an electric bicycle and in an electric mower, so I can report they work OK in high-drain use (but the BMS shuts off at about 20 amps). In the glider I prefer the larger 12AH battery, but one of these smaller 7.5AH ones is my standard backup plan.
>
> Note that a "7AH" SLA battery that is 2-3 years old will only give you about 3 AH or so if you don't want to damage it by fully discharging it, and the voltage will be pretty low by then. Tested one of these 7.5 AH LFPs by discharging 6 AH out of it, voltage was still well over 13V. The spec sheet claims they are "designed to work with AGM chargers", so you don't even need a new charger if you switch to them from SLAs, although something like the Imax B6 is better.

Powersonic is unrelated to "Powersync" whoever that is. Powersonic is a Japanese company that has been making batteries for decades.

A higher quality charger is the Victron Smart Blue 12V/5A. Will charge any chemistry and is highly configurable through the Victron Connect app. More expensive though.

[Dan Marotta]

Hook up one of THESE
<https://www.wish.com/product/5e1eb742b6c86d0bc080c119?hide_login_modal=true&from_ad=goog_shopping&_display_country_code=US&_force_currency_code=USD&pid=googleadwords_int&c=%7BcampaignId%7D&ad_cid=5e1eb742b6c86d0bc080c119&ad_cc=US&ad_lang=EN&ad_curr=USD&ad_price=9.00&campaign_id=7203534630&guest=true&gclid=CjwKCAjwnef6BRAgEiwAgv8mQZC-b0Lg-t09eDW0sx1O1DnE4m2w3fiw-ptr5D44NUoo20ds7aOxwxoCiroQAvD_BwE&share=web>
in series with your charger.Â* I use a Wattsup meter which cost about 5
times as much but that was all that was available at the time I bought it.

On 9/10/2020 5:08 AM, wrote:
> , I use a charger that tells me how much charge (amp-hours) go into the battery, and it should correspond to how long I used it in the glider.
>
> What charger do you use??
>
> Thanks
>
> Kevin
> 92

--
Dan, 5J

[kinsell]

On 9/10/20 7:55 AM, wrote:
> On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 12:48:52 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>> The bluetooth feature is a gimmick. What really makes these attractive is that they are about 1/2 the price of equivalent the K2 battery!
>
> Some months ago I bought several "PowerSync" (related to "PowerSonic"?) LFP batteries, the non-smart version (no Bluetooth), for about $32 each, from a US seller on ebay. Rated 7.5 AH, and the same standard "brick" size as the common 7AH SLA batteries. At that price, they are cheaper than SLAs (since they will last at least twice as many years). I cut one open, so I can tell you that (1) the ones sold at that price were 2 years old when sold (date stamped late 2017), not great but no big deal, (2) the cells are the small 18650 size, like the ones used in laptop batteries (but LFP chemistry in this case), and (3) yes it includes a full BMS including cell balancing. I've used them in an electric bicycle and in an electric mower, so I can report they work OK in high-drain use (but the BMS shuts off at about 20 amps). In the glider I prefer the larger 12AH battery, but one of these smaller 7.5AH ones is my standard backup plan.
>
> Note that a "7AH" SLA battery that is 2-3 years old will only give you about 3 AH or so if you don't want to damage it by fully discharging it, and the voltage will be pretty low by then. Tested one of these 7.5 AH LFPs by discharging 6 AH out of it, voltage was still well over 13V. The spec sheet claims they are "designed to work with AGM chargers", so you don't even need a new charger if you switch to them from SLAs, although something like the Imax B6 is better.
>

Three things wrong with the claim that these are LFP batteries. You
said voltage was well over 13 volts after almost a full discharge, but
real LFP's are 12.8 nominal, with four cells. 12.5 volts near the end
of a discharge cycle would be a lot more believable.

The fact that the cells are 18650 form factor should be a tipoff in itself.

Most importantly, LFP doesn't have the energy density needed to pack
that much power into four small cells.

So what you have is some Li-ion battery mis-branded as being LFP.

-Dave

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 4:04:57 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> On 9/10/20 7:55 AM, wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 12:48:52 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> >> The bluetooth feature is a gimmick. What really makes these attractive is that they are about 1/2 the price of equivalent the K2 battery!
> >
> > Some months ago I bought several "PowerSync" (related to "PowerSonic"?) LFP batteries, the non-smart version (no Bluetooth), for about $32 each, from a US seller on ebay. Rated 7.5 AH, and the same standard "brick" size as the common 7AH SLA batteries. At that price, they are cheaper than SLAs (since they will last at least twice as many years). I cut one open, so I can tell you that (1) the ones sold at that price were 2 years old when sold (date stamped late 2017), not great but no big deal, (2) the cells are the small 18650 size, like the ones used in laptop batteries (but LFP chemistry in this case), and (3) yes it includes a full BMS including cell balancing. I've used them in an electric bicycle and in an electric mower, so I can report they work OK in high-drain use (but the BMS shuts off at about 20 amps). In the glider I prefer the larger 12AH battery, but one of these smaller 7.5AH ones is my standard backup plan.
> >
> > Note that a "7AH" SLA battery that is 2-3 years old will only give you about 3 AH or so if you don't want to damage it by fully discharging it, and the voltage will be pretty low by then. Tested one of these 7.5 AH LFPs by discharging 6 AH out of it, voltage was still well over 13V. The spec sheet claims they are "designed to work with AGM chargers", so you don't even need a new charger if you switch to them from SLAs, although something like the Imax B6 is better.
> >
>
> Three things wrong with the claim that these are LFP batteries. You
> said voltage was well over 13 volts after almost a full discharge, but
> real LFP's are 12.8 nominal, with four cells. 12.5 volts near the end
> of a discharge cycle would be a lot more believable.
>
> The fact that the cells are 18650 form factor should be a tipoff in itself.
>
> Most importantly, LFP doesn't have the energy density needed to pack
> that much power into four small cells.
>
> So what you have is some Li-ion battery mis-branded as being LFP.
>
> -Dave

Not at all. The thing is packed with 20 of these cells (4S 5P configuration), 1500 mAH per 18650 cell is reasonable. LFP is famous for holding the voltage above 13V (for a 4-cell battery) until it's almost empty. I didn't discharge it all the way, only 6AH out of the nameplate 7.5AH. (I didn't care enough about the exact capacity to risk stressing the battery with a full discahrge.) If these cells were really Li-ion then 4S would be around 14.4V nominal and much higher than that when charging. Instead it runs around 13.4-13.6V for most of the charging, as it should for LFP.

I have photos of the innards of this thing if anybody's interested.

And no I'm not affiliated with the seller... In fact I put off buying them for a long time since I didn't like the seller's flippant responses to my technical questions, but eventually I found some info elsewhere online, took the risk, and am happy with what I got.

[jfitch]

Again, these have nothing to do with the batteries in the subject line, which are LFP, well documented, from a long time reputable supplier. If you want to have a discussion of some No-Name brand ebay special, I suggest you start a separate thread on them.

On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 1:34:40 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 4:04:57 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> > On 9/10/20 7:55 AM, wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 12:48:52 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > >> The bluetooth feature is a gimmick. What really makes these attractive is that they are about 1/2 the price of equivalent the K2 battery!
> > >
> > > Some months ago I bought several "PowerSync" (related to "PowerSonic"?) LFP batteries, the non-smart version (no Bluetooth), for about $32 each, from a US seller on ebay. Rated 7.5 AH, and the same standard "brick" size as the common 7AH SLA batteries. At that price, they are cheaper than SLAs (since they will last at least twice as many years). I cut one open, so I can tell you that (1) the ones sold at that price were 2 years old when sold (date stamped late 2017), not great but no big deal, (2) the cells are the small 18650 size, like the ones used in laptop batteries (but LFP chemistry in this case), and (3) yes it includes a full BMS including cell balancing. I've used them in an electric bicycle and in an electric mower, so I can report they work OK in high-drain use (but the BMS shuts off at about 20 amps). In the glider I prefer the larger 12AH battery, but one of these smaller 7.5AH ones is my standard backup plan.
> > >
> > > Note that a "7AH" SLA battery that is 2-3 years old will only give you about 3 AH or so if you don't want to damage it by fully discharging it, and the voltage will be pretty low by then. Tested one of these 7.5 AH LFPs by discharging 6 AH out of it, voltage was still well over 13V. The spec sheet claims they are "designed to work with AGM chargers", so you don't even need a new charger if you switch to them from SLAs, although something like the Imax B6 is better.
> > >
> >
> > Three things wrong with the claim that these are LFP batteries. You
> > said voltage was well over 13 volts after almost a full discharge, but
> > real LFP's are 12.8 nominal, with four cells. 12.5 volts near the end
> > of a discharge cycle would be a lot more believable.
> >
> > The fact that the cells are 18650 form factor should be a tipoff in itself.
> >
> > Most importantly, LFP doesn't have the energy density needed to pack
> > that much power into four small cells.
> >
> > So what you have is some Li-ion battery mis-branded as being LFP.
> >
> > -Dave
> Not at all. The thing is packed with 20 of these cells (4S 5P configuration), 1500 mAH per 18650 cell is reasonable. LFP is famous for holding the voltage above 13V (for a 4-cell battery) until it's almost empty. I didn't discharge it all the way, only 6AH out of the nameplate 7.5AH. (I didn't care enough about the exact capacity to risk stressing the battery with a full discahrge.) If these cells were really Li-ion then 4S would be around 14.4V nominal and much higher than that when charging. Instead it runs around 13.4-13.6V for most of the charging, as it should for LFP.
>
> I have photos of the innards of this thing if anybody's interested.
>
> And no I'm not affiliated with the seller... In fact I put off buying them for a long time since I didn't like the seller's flippant responses to my technical questions, but eventually I found some info elsewhere online, took the risk, and am happy with what I got.

[2G]

On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 3:02:28 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> Again, these have nothing to do with the batteries in the subject line, which are LFP, well documented, from a long time reputable supplier. If you want to have a discussion of some No-Name brand ebay special, I suggest you start a separate thread on them.
>
> On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 1:34:40 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 4:04:57 PM UTC-4, kinsell wrote:
> > > On 9/10/20 7:55 AM, wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 12:48:52 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > >> The bluetooth feature is a gimmick. What really makes these attractive is that they are about 1/2 the price of equivalent the K2 battery!
> > > >
> > > > Some months ago I bought several "PowerSync" (related to "PowerSonic"?) LFP batteries, the non-smart version (no Bluetooth), for about $32 each, from a US seller on ebay. Rated 7.5 AH, and the same standard "brick" size as the common 7AH SLA batteries. At that price, they are cheaper than SLAs (since they will last at least twice as many years). I cut one open, so I can tell you that (1) the ones sold at that price were 2 years old when sold (date stamped late 2017), not great but no big deal, (2) the cells are the small 18650 size, like the ones used in laptop batteries (but LFP chemistry in this case), and (3) yes it includes a full BMS including cell balancing. I've used them in an electric bicycle and in an electric mower, so I can report they work OK in high-drain use (but the BMS shuts off at about 20 amps). In the glider I prefer the larger 12AH battery, but one of these smaller 7.5AH ones is my standard backup plan.
> > > >
> > > > Note that a "7AH" SLA battery that is 2-3 years old will only give you about 3 AH or so if you don't want to damage it by fully discharging it, and the voltage will be pretty low by then. Tested one of these 7.5 AH LFPs by discharging 6 AH out of it, voltage was still well over 13V. The spec sheet claims they are "designed to work with AGM chargers", so you don't even need a new charger if you switch to them from SLAs, although something like the Imax B6 is better.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Three things wrong with the claim that these are LFP batteries. You
> > > said voltage was well over 13 volts after almost a full discharge, but
> > > real LFP's are 12.8 nominal, with four cells. 12.5 volts near the end
> > > of a discharge cycle would be a lot more believable.
> > >
> > > The fact that the cells are 18650 form factor should be a tipoff in itself.
> > >
> > > Most importantly, LFP doesn't have the energy density needed to pack
> > > that much power into four small cells.
> > >
> > > So what you have is some Li-ion battery mis-branded as being LFP.
> > >
> > > -Dave
> > Not at all. The thing is packed with 20 of these cells (4S 5P configuration), 1500 mAH per 18650 cell is reasonable. LFP is famous for holding the voltage above 13V (for a 4-cell battery) until it's almost empty. I didn't discharge it all the way, only 6AH out of the nameplate 7.5AH. (I didn't care enough about the exact capacity to risk stressing the battery with a full discahrge.) If these cells were really Li-ion then 4S would be around 14..4V nominal and much higher than that when charging. Instead it runs around 13.4-13.6V for most of the charging, as it should for LFP.
> >
> > I have photos of the innards of this thing if anybody's interested.
> >
> > And no I'm not affiliated with the seller... In fact I put off buying them for a long time since I didn't like the seller's flippant responses to my technical questions, but eventually I found some info elsewhere online, took the risk, and am happy with what I got.

I concur. I think this is the moshe? is referring to:
https://tinyurl.com/yy22xxvc
It does not have a datasheet, so I don't know how moshe can assert there is a BMS. For sure, Powersync has nothing to do with PowerSonic. More likely, the name was chosen to confuse buyers into jumping to that conclusion. There are reputable LFP battery manufacturers out there, so there is no good reason to buy this.

Tom

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 11:53:38 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> Powersonic is unrelated to "Powersync" whoever that is. Powersonic is a Japanese company that has been making batteries for decades.
>
Are you confusing them with Panasonic? Powersonic is an American company.

https://www.power-sonic.com/about/

[kinsell]

On 9/10/20 4:20 PM, 2G wrote:
> For sure, Powersync has nothing to do with PowerSonic. More likely, the name was chosen to confuse buyers into jumping to that conclusion. There are reputable LFP battery manufacturers out there, so there is no good reason to buy this.


Had to chuckle on this one. Ever wonder where the strange PowerSonic
name came from? It's shockingly similar to Panasonic, which actually
makes quality SLA batteries. I hope PowerSonic makes better lithium
batteries than their SLA batteries.

[krasw]

On Wednesday, 9 September 2020 at 20:42:21 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 12:43:31 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
> > This is just fantastic idea. What I would like to have is a bluetooth/processor chip unit that you mount on any battery (SLA, LFP, whatever), and then monitor all your batteries status via app. There is no reason to built it inside battery. Integrate fuse holder, quality connector and you have everything.
> There are advantages to having it in the battery: it can report SOC per battery, the BMS is already there doing the measurements, and the cost is essentially free. However there is a device which does exactly what you want:
>
> https://www.thornwave.com/collections/smart-products/products/bluetooth-battery-monitor-dc-power-meter
>
> I also have one of these. One drawback is it must be powered to retain the history, so if you remove the battery from your glider you lose that history. Another advantage of having it in the battery. They are claiming to fix this in a future firmware release.

Thanks, this is just what I need!

[2G]

On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 9:24:42 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> On 9/10/20 4:20 PM, 2G wrote:
> > For sure, Powersync has nothing to do with PowerSonic. More likely, the name was chosen to confuse buyers into jumping to that conclusion. There are reputable LFP battery manufacturers out there, so there is no good reason to buy this.
>
>
> Had to chuckle on this one. Ever wonder where the strange PowerSonic
> name came from? It's shockingly similar to Panasonic, which actually
> makes quality SLA batteries. I hope PowerSonic makes better lithium
> batteries than their SLA batteries.

Well, if they do then you will be very pleased because I have used Powersonici SLA batteries in the past and have been satisfied with their performance.

Tom

[Jay Campbell]

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 8:03:19 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 9:24:42 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > On 9/10/20 4:20 PM, 2G wrote:
> > > For sure, Powersync has nothing to do with PowerSonic. More likely, the name was chosen to confuse buyers into jumping to that conclusion. There are reputable LFP battery manufacturers out there, so there is no good reason to buy this.
> >
> >
> > Had to chuckle on this one. Ever wonder where the strange PowerSonic
> > name came from? It's shockingly similar to Panasonic, which actually
> > makes quality SLA batteries. I hope PowerSonic makes better lithium
> > batteries than their SLA batteries.
> Well, if they do then you will be very pleased because I have used Powersonici SLA batteries in the past and have been satisfied with their performance.
>
> Tom
I've been using PowerSonic now for about eight years in several different aircraft, including club ships. I purchase the 9AH version and, each off season, put them through a load test and follow their performance that way on a yearly basis. Average life is 4 seasons with one getting 5, and one getting just 3. I keep them on a float charge whenever not in use. They may not have the fancy name or the high price, but they do do the job for me.
Jay

[Craig Reinholt]

Panasonic quality is a thing of the past. I've purchased 2 SLA 12v 20ah bats in the past couple of years and, after testing each bat multiple times, neither were any better than some generic brand batteries that I've purchased and worse than others.

Regarding Panasonic as an American company here is a quote from Wikipedia.
Panasonic, then Matsu****a Electric, was founded in 1918 by K�nosuke Matsu****a as a vendor of duplex lamp sockets. In the 1920s Matsu****a began regularly launching products. In 1927, he produced a line of bicycle lamps that were the first to be marketed with the National brand name.
Craig


> Had to chuckle on this one. Ever wonder where the strange PowerSonic
> name came from? It's shockingly similar to Panasonic, which actually
> makes quality SLA batteries. I hope PowerSonic makes better lithium
> batteries than their SLA batteries.

[jfitch]

The nationality of battery manufacturers is complicated. Powersonic is really a trading company with little manufacturing capability. Up until the early 2000s, every Powersonic battery I purchased said "Made in Japan" on it. They were one of the best AGM batteries out there. In the early 2000s, the batteries changed to "Made in China" and I felt the quality degraded: shorter life and a few did not meet their specs when new. For the next couple of years I bought Panasonic batteries ("National" or Matsu****a in much of the world), then they too started coming "Made in China", and quality fell off. Same with Yuasa. Price pressure has forced them all to China, with similar results. Manufacturing in China is unlike what you might be used to in the USA or Japan in many ways large and small. I used to buy a lot of small AGMs to feed my large motorcycle collection so my sample size is relatively large. Currently the best AGM batteries are made by Lifeline here in the USA (part of Concorde, I think), but they do not make small sizes.

Nearly 100% of lithium cells are made in China, so you don't get much of a choice in country of origin. There are a range of qualities though, and the integrator that assembles them into a battery makes a difference. Powersonic was recently purchased by a venture or hedge fund group, often not a good thing, time will tell. The battery I just bought and tested seems to be a good product.

On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 8:27:37 AM UTC-7, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> Panasonic quality is a thing of the past. I've purchased 2 SLA 12v 20ah bats in the past couple of years and, after testing each bat multiple times, neither were any better than some generic brand batteries that I've purchased and worse than others.
>
> Regarding Panasonic as an American company here is a quote from Wikipedia..
> Panasonic, then Matsu****a Electric, was founded in 1918 by K�nosuke Matsu****a as a vendor of duplex lamp sockets. In the 1920s Matsu****a began regularly launching products. In 1927, he produced a line of bicycle lamps that were the first to be marketed with the National brand name.
> Craig
> > Had to chuckle on this one. Ever wonder where the strange PowerSonic
> > name came from? It's shockingly similar to Panasonic, which actually
> > makes quality SLA batteries. I hope PowerSonic makes better lithium
> > batteries than their SLA batteries.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, September 12, 2020 at 11:27:37 AM UTC-4, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> Panasonic quality is a thing of the past. I've purchased 2 SLA 12v 20ah bats in the past couple of years and, after testing each bat multiple times, neither were any better than some generic brand batteries that I've purchased and worse than others.
>
> Regarding Panasonic as an American company here is a quote from Wikipedia..
> Panasonic, then Matsu****a Electric, was founded in 1918 by K�nosuke Matsu****a as a vendor of duplex lamp sockets. In the 1920s Matsu****a began regularly launching products. In 1927, he produced a line of bicycle lamps that were the first to be marketed with the National brand name.
> Craig
> > Had to chuckle on this one. Ever wonder where the strange PowerSonic
> > name came from? It's shockingly similar to Panasonic, which actually
> > makes quality SLA batteries. I hope PowerSonic makes better lithium
> > batteries than their SLA batteries.
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.

I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.

[2G]

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
>
> I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.

What do you mean by "large?"

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 7:50:17 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
> >
> > I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
>
> What do you mean by "large?"

12.8V 200AH - any recommendations?

[2G]

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 8:17:31 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 7:50:17 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
> > >
> > > I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
> >
> > What do you mean by "large?"
>
> 12.8V 200AH - any recommendations?

https://www.bioennopower.com/collections/12v-series-lifepo4-batteries/products/12v-200ah-lfp-battery-abs-blf-12200as

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 9/13/2020 8:17 PM:
> On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 7:50:17 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
>> On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>>>> No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
>>>
>>> I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
>>
>> What do you mean by "large?"
>
> 12.8V 200AH - any recommendations?
>
Battle Born 100 AH units can be use in parallel, and the Perlan team chose them
for the Perlan glider:

https://battlebornbatteries.com/faq/

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

Jfitch,

What are you using to charge it? The manufacturer seems to recommend an ordinary 13.8 volt switching power supply which makes sense with the BMS handling the rest of the work

[jfitch]

Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.


On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
> I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.

[jfitch]

Most lithium cell manufacturers recommended charge voltage of 14.2 - 14.6V (for four cells), 13.8 will charge them but not as fast or fully. If you do not go high enough, the BMS will not work properly (as most of the small ones are top balancing). The longevity tests I've seen suggest 14.2V as the best compromise. I've been using this charger:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TLCT7X7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It can be set for proper voltages for LFP, SLA, flooded, or pretty much anything. It is a true connect and forget charger, with correct float voltages for any chemistry including lithium. Like the Powersonic battery, there is a free phone app (somewhat better than Powersonic's) that connects with Bluetooth, delivers status and history and allows wide configuration of all parameters, though it can be operated very simply with the one button on the top. It's default LFP program is 14.2V CC charge, and 13.5V float (effectively disconnected) which is perfect. A bit more than a $20 Chinese charger, but it is less likely to burn your house down :).

The BMS will disconnect if the high charge voltage is exceeded, but that is pretty high on the Powersonic (15.2V according to their spec). You really should not depend on this routinely, hard on the cells.

Another point to remember about lithium is that unlike SLA, they like to be operated and stored in the middle of the charge range. On the last flight of the weekend I do not recharge (it will be about 50% SOC), leave it that way until I am going to fly again. With the above charger, I normally charge at the 2A setting, but you can run it at 5A for a quicker charge (in the morning when you have forgotten to charge it!). The battery will accept it, a bit harder on it maybe but it is OK to do when needed. LFP will charge at full current until about 95% SOC.

SLA batteries need to be charged fully immediately after use, and stored that way or they will die early.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:36:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Jfitch,
>
> What are you using to charge it? The manufacturer seems to recommend an ordinary 13.8 volt switching power supply which makes sense with the BMS handling the rest of the work

[2G]

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 9:11:45 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> Most lithium cell manufacturers recommended charge voltage of 14.2 - 14.6V (for four cells), 13.8 will charge them but not as fast or fully. If you do not go high enough, the BMS will not work properly (as most of the small ones are top balancing). The longevity tests I've seen suggest 14.2V as the best compromise. I've been using this charger:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TLCT7X7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
> It can be set for proper voltages for LFP, SLA, flooded, or pretty much anything. It is a true connect and forget charger, with correct float voltages for any chemistry including lithium. Like the Powersonic battery, there is a free phone app (somewhat better than Powersonic's) that connects with Bluetooth, delivers status and history and allows wide configuration of all parameters, though it can be operated very simply with the one button on the top. It's default LFP program is 14.2V CC charge, and 13.5V float (effectively disconnected) which is perfect. A bit more than a $20 Chinese charger, but it is less likely to burn your house down :).
>
> The BMS will disconnect if the high charge voltage is exceeded, but that is pretty high on the Powersonic (15.2V according to their spec). You really should not depend on this routinely, hard on the cells.
>
> Another point to remember about lithium is that unlike SLA, they like to be operated and stored in the middle of the charge range. On the last flight of the weekend I do not recharge (it will be about 50% SOC), leave it that way until I am going to fly again. With the above charger, I normally charge at the 2A setting, but you can run it at 5A for a quicker charge (in the morning when you have forgotten to charge it!). The battery will accept it, a bit harder on it maybe but it is OK to do when needed. LFP will charge at full current until about 95% SOC.
>
> SLA batteries need to be charged fully immediately after use, and stored that way or they will die early.
>
> On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:36:35 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Jfitch,
> >
> > What are you using to charge it? The manufacturer seems to recommend an ordinary 13.8 volt switching power supply which makes sense with the BMS handling the rest of the work

The X2 Pro AC/DC charger I use can also discharge a lithium battery to 50% for storage:
https://hitecrcd.com/products/chargers/discontinued-chargers-charging-accessories/x2-ac-pro-2-port-acdc-multi-charger/product
Unfortunately, the X2 has been discontinued and replaced by the X4 at a considerably higher price:
https://hitecrcd.com/products/chargers/acdc-chargers/x4-ac-pro-acdc-four-port-multicharger/product
I rarely charge two batteries at once and can't conceive of charging 4 simultaneously (the RC crowd, however, can). The X2 is still for sale, however:
https://www.amazon.com/Hitec-RCD-Black-Multi-Function-Charger/dp/B075MFD6H3

Tom

[2G]

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.
>
>
> On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
> > I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.

Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Dragonfly-Energy-Warranty.pdf

[jfitch]

Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.
> >
> >
> > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
> > > I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
> Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
> https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Dragonfly-Energy-Warranty.pdf

[2G]

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.
>
> On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
> > > > I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
> > Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture..
> > https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Dragonfly-Energy-Warranty.pdf

I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:

Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.

And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.

[jfitch]

Directly quoted from your own link:

"Dragonfly Energy Corp. (“the Manufacturer�) warrants each Dragonfly Energy and Battle Born Batteries branded Li-ion battery (“the Product�) sold by Dragonfly Energy, Battle Born Batteries,
or any of its authorized distributors or dealers, to be free of defects for a period of 10 years (“the Warranty Period�) from the date of sale as determined by either the customer’s sale
receipt, the shipping invoice and/or the battery serial number, with proof of purchase."

Between 8 and 10 years they will only repair not replace, which is the sentence you cherry picked. As I am sure you know, it is universal in battery warrantees to replace for a short period (typically a year or two) then prorate the remedy. Battleborn's warrantee is far longer, and far more inclusive than any deep cycle battery I have ever seen. Unless otherwise excluded (and it is not), a loss of capacity would fall under the legal definition of a defect. This is why in some industries (solar panels for example) the warrantee specifically allows 20% loss of capacity, excluding that as a defect.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:33:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.
> >
> > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > > > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
> > > > > I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
> > > Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
> > > https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Dragonfly-Energy-Warranty.pdf
> I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:
>
> Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.
>
> And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.

[2G]

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:44:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> Directly quoted from your own link:
>
> "Dragonfly Energy Corp. (“the Manufacturer�) warrants each Dragonfly Energy and Battle Born Batteries branded Li-ion battery (“the Product�) sold by Dragonfly Energy, Battle Born Batteries,
> or any of its authorized distributors or dealers, to be free of defects for a period of 10 years (“the Warranty Period�) from the date of sale as determined by either the customer’s sale
> receipt, the shipping invoice and/or the battery serial number, with proof of purchase."
>
> Between 8 and 10 years they will only repair not replace, which is the sentence you cherry picked. As I am sure you know, it is universal in battery warrantees to replace for a short period (typically a year or two) then prorate the remedy. Battleborn's warrantee is far longer, and far more inclusive than any deep cycle battery I have ever seen. Unless otherwise excluded (and it is not), a loss of capacity would fall under the legal definition of a defect. This is why in some industries (solar panels for example) the warrantee specifically allows 20% loss of capacity, excluding that as a defect.
>
> On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:33:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.
> > >
> > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > > > > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
> > > > > > I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
> > > > Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
> > > > https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Dragonfly-Energy-Warranty.pdf
> > I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:
> >
> > Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.
> >
> > And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.

Loss of capacity is not a "defect" - it is a normal consequence of use. It says so in their warranty.

[[email protected]]

((meh))

You're a pretty smart guy, 2g. Let's stop splitting hairs here.

The LiFe offers better capacity to weight ratio across the board. The price (I found one for 64 bucks) isn't bad either. Not EVEN a close competition to Bioenno or the rest of the pack.

I paid 10 bucks (It hurt me) for an aged out (imprinted date code) AGM battery (bat-tree if you're from Memphis) and was happy to get it. Two....three seasons tops. I'm not gonna cry. Really.

But do you realistically think the LiFe battery we're talking about will deliver worse performance for the dollar than the AGM I already bought? I don't think so and I bet you don't either. Tell me I'm wrong?

I honestly hope OSTIV steps up and pushes a JAR standard for this for broader acceptance. It's overdue and I think it would pave the way for improvements that could help safety. But then, I've always tried to take the long view on ****. It's just how I roll. But then, I'm not Wes M. so it's not like I know anything.

Respectfully.....

[2G]

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:35:28 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> ((meh))
>
> You're a pretty smart guy, 2g. Let's stop splitting hairs here.
>
> The LiFe offers better capacity to weight ratio across the board. The price (I found one for 64 bucks) isn't bad either. Not EVEN a close competition to Bioenno or the rest of the pack.
>
> I paid 10 bucks (It hurt me) for an aged out (imprinted date code) AGM battery (bat-tree if you're from Memphis) and was happy to get it. Two....three seasons tops. I'm not gonna cry. Really.
>
> But do you realistically think the LiFe battery we're talking about will deliver worse performance for the dollar than the AGM I already bought? I don't think so and I bet you don't either. Tell me I'm wrong?
>
> I honestly hope OSTIV steps up and pushes a JAR standard for this for broader acceptance. It's overdue and I think it would pave the way for improvements that could help safety. But then, I've always tried to take the long view on ****. It's just how I roll. But then, I'm not Wes M. so it's not like I know anything.
>
> Respectfully.....

Since you addressed me directly I will respond. I was not talking about the cost of LFP vs SLA batteries by any metric - I just commented on the terms in the warranty. A 10-year warranty (which is really just an 8-year warranty) sounds pretty impressive until you find that it doesn't cover loss of capacity:

This Limited Warranty does not cover a Product that has reached its normal end of life due to usage which may occur prior to the Warranty Period. A battery can deliver only a fixed amount of Energy over its life which will occur over different periods of time depending on the application. For example, cycling the battery more than 1 time daily, will cause the normal end of life to occur before the end of the Warranty Period. The Manufacturer reserves the right to
deny a warranty claim if the Product is determined, upon inspection, to be at its normal end of life even if within the Warranty Period.

Note that the sole arbiter of this clause is not you, but the Manufacturer (them). As they say, the large print giveth and the small print taketh away..

Personally, I am a strong supporter of LFP batteries: I use them in my own glider. The reason is simple: SLA batteries can't provide the energy I need to operate my full glass panel cockpit - not even close. As a plus, I don't expect to have to swap the battery every couple of years, a disagreeable task at best in the ASH26 or 31.

Tom

[jfitch]

It does not say that. There are exactly 10 exclusions in their warrantee, one of which is if you cycle it more than once per day for 10 years, they might exclude coverage. The word "capacity" in fact does not appear in the warrantee at all. "Defect" is a legal term in most states, not whatever you think it might be. I'd agree that it is really an 8 year warrantee, but in the deep cycle battery business, that is commonly referred to as 10 years, standard industry practice. I defy you to find an 8 year warrantee from anyone else.

Independent tests you can find on the web suggest that the reason they are comfortable making this warrantee is the battery starts with significant extra capacity over the label, to ensure that it maintains capacity for its life.

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:58:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:44:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > Directly quoted from your own link:
> >
> > "Dragonfly Energy Corp. (“the Manufacturer�) warrants each Dragonfly Energy and Battle Born Batteries branded Li-ion battery (“the Product�) sold by Dragonfly Energy, Battle Born Batteries,
> > or any of its authorized distributors or dealers, to be free of defects for a period of 10 years (“the Warranty Period�) from the date of sale as determined by either the customer’s sale
> > receipt, the shipping invoice and/or the battery serial number, with proof of purchase."
> >
> > Between 8 and 10 years they will only repair not replace, which is the sentence you cherry picked. As I am sure you know, it is universal in battery warrantees to replace for a short period (typically a year or two) then prorate the remedy. Battleborn's warrantee is far longer, and far more inclusive than any deep cycle battery I have ever seen. Unless otherwise excluded (and it is not), a loss of capacity would fall under the legal definition of a defect. This is why in some industries (solar panels for example) the warrantee specifically allows 20% loss of capacity, excluding that as a defect.
> >
> > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:33:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.
> > > >
> > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > > > > > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
> > > > > > > I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
> > > > > Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
> > > > > https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Dragonfly-Energy-Warranty.pdf
> > > I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:
> > >
> > > Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.
> > >
> > > And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.
> Loss of capacity is not a "defect" - it is a normal consequence of use. It says so in their warranty.

[2G]

On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 8:45:33 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> It does not say that. There are exactly 10 exclusions in their warrantee, one of which is if you cycle it more than once per day for 10 years, they might exclude coverage. The word "capacity" in fact does not appear in the warrantee at all. "Defect" is a legal term in most states, not whatever you think it might be. I'd agree that it is really an 8 year warrantee, but in the deep cycle battery business, that is commonly referred to as 10 years, standard industry practice. I defy you to find an 8 year warrantee from anyone else.
>
> Independent tests you can find on the web suggest that the reason they are comfortable making this warrantee is the battery starts with significant extra capacity over the label, to ensure that it maintains capacity for its life.
>
> On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:58:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:44:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > Directly quoted from your own link:
> > >
> > > "Dragonfly Energy Corp. (“the Manufacturer�) warrants each Dragonfly Energy and Battle Born Batteries branded Li-ion battery (“the Product�) sold by Dragonfly Energy, Battle Born Batteries,
> > > or any of its authorized distributors or dealers, to be free of defects for a period of 10 years (“the Warranty Period�) from the date of sale as determined by either the customer’s sale
> > > receipt, the shipping invoice and/or the battery serial number, with proof of purchase."
> > >
> > > Between 8 and 10 years they will only repair not replace, which is the sentence you cherry picked. As I am sure you know, it is universal in battery warrantees to replace for a short period (typically a year or two) then prorate the remedy. Battleborn's warrantee is far longer, and far more inclusive than any deep cycle battery I have ever seen. Unless otherwise excluded (and it is not), a loss of capacity would fall under the legal definition of a defect. This is why in some industries (solar panels for example) the warrantee specifically allows 20% loss of capacity, excluding that as a defect.
> > >
> > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:33:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff.. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > > > > > > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
> > > > > > > > I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
> > > > > > Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
> > > > > > https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Dragonfly-Energy-Warranty.pdf
> > > > I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:
> > > >
> > > > Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.
> > > >
> > > > And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.
> > Loss of capacity is not a "defect" - it is a normal consequence of use. It says so in their warranty.

Jon,

Those words are DIRECTLY from the warranty, so, yes, it DOES say that. In particular, they "reserve the right" to make the sole determination:

"The Manufacturer reserves the right to deny a warranty claim if the Product is determined, upon inspection, to be at its normal end of life even if within the Warranty Period."

Thus, the 10 exclusions (which is A LOT) IS NOT exhaustive, but exemplary.

To further complicate the issue, Battle Born does not publish datasheets on their batteries which might give some indication of things like the expected number of charge/discharge cycles. And they don't answer their phone (at least when I tried), so you can't get any answers that way.

Here is a good youtube teardown of a BB battery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5E30u-66VI
He expects the battery to deliver 2,000 to 3,000 cycles, but I have found no actual testing that verifies this. The internal build quality does look good.

Another video actually shows an installed RV lithium battery system that lasted 8.5 yr and died because of a combination of design and user errors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0zcRXTDRk
They believe that the batteries would have lasted at least 10 years if these mistakes had not been made. They replaced the batteries with BB batteries which should not repeat these mistakes.

This couple taped an interview with the two BB principals, and at 29:00 they discuss the warranty (which is enlightening):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7BgRg6m_bY
The principal battery killer they identify is charging at more than a 0.5 C rate (that is 50A for a 100AHr battery). The previous video also identified heat. Also, LFP batteries can't be charged when it is freezing or below.

My expectations are that LFP will last a lot longer than SLA batteries, which I had to replace every 2 years, but I will believe it when I see it (the batteries might very well outlast me!).

One safety note: one of the videos used non-insulated tools while connecting up their batteries; if a short occurs at any point while making connections you will have molten metal flying out at high velocities. Be VERY CAREFUL while making these connections. One option is to wrap your wrenches with electrical tape or shrink tubing (insulated tools are VERY EXPENSIVE).

Tom

[jfitch]

It says what it says, but capacity is not mentioned. I interpret it it differently than you do. But we have stayed off of topic long enough - even for RAS!


On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 1:27:26 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 8:45:33 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > It does not say that. There are exactly 10 exclusions in their warrantee, one of which is if you cycle it more than once per day for 10 years, they might exclude coverage. The word "capacity" in fact does not appear in the warrantee at all. "Defect" is a legal term in most states, not whatever you think it might be. I'd agree that it is really an 8 year warrantee, but in the deep cycle battery business, that is commonly referred to as 10 years, standard industry practice. I defy you to find an 8 year warrantee from anyone else.
> >
> > Independent tests you can find on the web suggest that the reason they are comfortable making this warrantee is the battery starts with significant extra capacity over the label, to ensure that it maintains capacity for its life.
> >
> > On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:58:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:44:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > Directly quoted from your own link:
> > > >
> > > > "Dragonfly Energy Corp. (“the Manufacturer�) warrants each Dragonfly Energy and Battle Born Batteries branded Li-ion battery (“the Product�) sold by Dragonfly Energy, Battle Born Batteries,
> > > > or any of its authorized distributors or dealers, to be free of defects for a period of 10 years (“the Warranty Period�) from the date of sale as determined by either the customer’s sale
> > > > receipt, the shipping invoice and/or the battery serial number, with proof of purchase."
> > > >
> > > > Between 8 and 10 years they will only repair not replace, which is the sentence you cherry picked. As I am sure you know, it is universal in battery warrantees to replace for a short period (typically a year or two) then prorate the remedy. Battleborn's warrantee is far longer, and far more inclusive than any deep cycle battery I have ever seen. Unless otherwise excluded (and it is not), a loss of capacity would fall under the legal definition of a defect. This is why in some industries (solar panels for example) the warrantee specifically allows 20% loss of capacity, excluding that as a defect.
> > > >
> > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:33:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > > Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
> > > > > > > > > I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
> > > > > > > Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
> > > > > > > https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Dragonfly-Energy-Warranty.pdf
> > > > > I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:
> > > > >
> > > > > Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.
> > > > >
> > > > > And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.
> > > Loss of capacity is not a "defect" - it is a normal consequence of use. It says so in their warranty.
> Jon,
>
> Those words are DIRECTLY from the warranty, so, yes, it DOES say that. In particular, they "reserve the right" to make the sole determination:
> "The Manufacturer reserves the right to deny a warranty claim if the Product is determined, upon inspection, to be at its normal end of life even if within the Warranty Period."
> Thus, the 10 exclusions (which is A LOT) IS NOT exhaustive, but exemplary..
>
> To further complicate the issue, Battle Born does not publish datasheets on their batteries which might give some indication of things like the expected number of charge/discharge cycles. And they don't answer their phone (at least when I tried), so you can't get any answers that way.
>
> Here is a good youtube teardown of a BB battery:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5E30u-66VI
> He expects the battery to deliver 2,000 to 3,000 cycles, but I have found no actual testing that verifies this. The internal build quality does look good.
>
> Another video actually shows an installed RV lithium battery system that lasted 8.5 yr and died because of a combination of design and user errors:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0zcRXTDRk
> They believe that the batteries would have lasted at least 10 years if these mistakes had not been made. They replaced the batteries with BB batteries which should not repeat these mistakes.
>
> This couple taped an interview with the two BB principals, and at 29:00 they discuss the warranty (which is enlightening):
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7BgRg6m_bY
> The principal battery killer they identify is charging at more than a 0.5 C rate (that is 50A for a 100AHr battery). The previous video also identified heat. Also, LFP batteries can't be charged when it is freezing or below..
>
> My expectations are that LFP will last a lot longer than SLA batteries, which I had to replace every 2 years, but I will believe it when I see it (the batteries might very well outlast me!).
>
> One safety note: one of the videos used non-insulated tools while connecting up their batteries; if a short occurs at any point while making connections you will have molten metal flying out at high velocities. Be VERY CAREFUL while making these connections. One option is to wrap your wrenches with electrical tape or shrink tubing (insulated tools are VERY EXPENSIVE).
>
> Tom

[2G]

On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 2:13:32 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> It says what it says, but capacity is not mentioned. I interpret it it differently than you do. But we have stayed off of topic long enough - even for RAS!
>
>
> On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 1:27:26 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 8:45:33 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > It does not say that. There are exactly 10 exclusions in their warrantee, one of which is if you cycle it more than once per day for 10 years, they might exclude coverage. The word "capacity" in fact does not appear in the warrantee at all. "Defect" is a legal term in most states, not whatever you think it might be. I'd agree that it is really an 8 year warrantee, but in the deep cycle battery business, that is commonly referred to as 10 years, standard industry practice. I defy you to find an 8 year warrantee from anyone else.
> > >
> > > Independent tests you can find on the web suggest that the reason they are comfortable making this warrantee is the battery starts with significant extra capacity over the label, to ensure that it maintains capacity for its life.
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:58:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:44:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > Directly quoted from your own link:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Dragonfly Energy Corp. (“the Manufacturer�) warrants each Dragonfly Energy and Battle Born Batteries branded Li-ion battery (“the Product�) sold by Dragonfly Energy, Battle Born Batteries,
> > > > > or any of its authorized distributors or dealers, to be free of defects for a period of 10 years (“the Warranty Period�) from the date of sale as determined by either the customer’s sale
> > > > > receipt, the shipping invoice and/or the battery serial number, with proof of purchase."
> > > > >
> > > > > Between 8 and 10 years they will only repair not replace, which is the sentence you cherry picked. As I am sure you know, it is universal in battery warrantees to replace for a short period (typically a year or two) then prorate the remedy. Battleborn's warrantee is far longer, and far more inclusive than any deep cycle battery I have ever seen. Unless otherwise excluded (and it is not), a loss of capacity would fall under the legal definition of a defect. This is why in some industries (solar panels for example) the warrantee specifically allows 20% loss of capacity, excluding that as a defect.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:33:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
> > > > > > > > > > I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
> > > > > > > > Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
> > > > > > > > https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Dragonfly-Energy-Warranty.pdf
> > > > > > I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.
> > > > Loss of capacity is not a "defect" - it is a normal consequence of use. It says so in their warranty.
> > Jon,
> >
> > Those words are DIRECTLY from the warranty, so, yes, it DOES say that. In particular, they "reserve the right" to make the sole determination:
> > "The Manufacturer reserves the right to deny a warranty claim if the Product is determined, upon inspection, to be at its normal end of life even if within the Warranty Period."
> > Thus, the 10 exclusions (which is A LOT) IS NOT exhaustive, but exemplary.
> >
> > To further complicate the issue, Battle Born does not publish datasheets on their batteries which might give some indication of things like the expected number of charge/discharge cycles. And they don't answer their phone (at least when I tried), so you can't get any answers that way.
> >
> > Here is a good youtube teardown of a BB battery:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5E30u-66VI
> > He expects the battery to deliver 2,000 to 3,000 cycles, but I have found no actual testing that verifies this. The internal build quality does look good.
> >
> > Another video actually shows an installed RV lithium battery system that lasted 8.5 yr and died because of a combination of design and user errors:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0zcRXTDRk
> > They believe that the batteries would have lasted at least 10 years if these mistakes had not been made. They replaced the batteries with BB batteries which should not repeat these mistakes.
> >
> > This couple taped an interview with the two BB principals, and at 29:00 they discuss the warranty (which is enlightening):
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7BgRg6m_bY
> > The principal battery killer they identify is charging at more than a 0..5 C rate (that is 50A for a 100AHr battery). The previous video also identified heat. Also, LFP batteries can't be charged when it is freezing or below.
> >
> > My expectations are that LFP will last a lot longer than SLA batteries, which I had to replace every 2 years, but I will believe it when I see it (the batteries might very well outlast me!).
> >
> > One safety note: one of the videos used non-insulated tools while connecting up their batteries; if a short occurs at any point while making connections you will have molten metal flying out at high velocities. Be VERY CAREFUL while making these connections. One option is to wrap your wrenches with electrical tape or shrink tubing (insulated tools are VERY EXPENSIVE).
> >
> > Tom

Which is what I was saying since Day One. If users get the number of expected cycles, 3000 to 5000, this should not be an issue. But if they only get 2000 cycles, it could be for a heavy user (daily cycles) as this equates to 5.5 years.

Tom