View Full Version : Rope Breaks (Grilling sacred cows)
September 29th 20, 04:51 AM
Does anybody have a first hand account of a rope break in which a canopy was factually damaged because the pilot did not make an immediate turn to the left or right?
Please note:This is not my theory. I am only relating what is being taught at a particular club (not the club where I fly now).
Ventus_a
September 29th 20, 11:52 AM
Does anybody have a first hand account of a rope break in which a canopy was factually damaged because the pilot did not make an immediate turn to the left or right?
Please note:This is not my theory. I am only relating what is being taught at a particular club (not the club where I fly now).
No to a damaged canopy but I have personally seen 3 gliders with the rope fouling the wing and in one of those cases it had done a wrap around the tailplane resticting the elevator
:-)
September 29th 20, 06:36 PM
On Tuesday, September 29, 2020 at 4:51:15 PM UTC+13, wrote:
> Does anybody have a first hand account of a rope break in which a canopy was factually damaged because the pilot did not make an immediate turn to the left or right?
>
> Please note:This is not my theory. I am only relating what is being taught at a particular club (not the club where I fly now).
I witnessed a rope break that damaged the canopy of the glider. It was on the ground, the tow pilot mistook some-one on the side of the runway waving to a friend as the all-out and took of while the rope was slack. As it came tight it broke at the towplane end and sprang back hitting the glider.
Visible scratches that would have needed buffing out. The leading edges of the wings had worse damage. The had two pot poly paint finish and it had deep scratches in a couple of places.
--
Phil Plane
Papa3[_2_]
September 29th 20, 08:51 PM
On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 11:51:15 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Does anybody have a first hand account of a rope break in which a canopy was factually damaged because the pilot did not make an immediate turn to the left or right?
>
> Please note:This is not my theory. I am only relating what is being taught at a particular club (not the club where I fly now).
I watched the glider-side link blast through the rear windshield of a Ford Crown Victoria that was towing an ASW-20 to the line. The stretchy tow rope was under a lot of tension when it let go. Of course, they were using a piece of chain link instead of the approved Tost ring, and it slid out of the nose hook "jaws".
I know, not what you are asking for/why you are asking.
When I was early on in my instructing career, I let a student flying a hand-controlled Grob 103 get one cycle too far into lateral PIOs before taking over. Just as I grabbed the stick there was a god-awful twang and the rope with ring was headed back at us. Because we were offset to the side and climbing slightly, the ring came back and passed JUST under the wing. If we'd been directly behind the towplane and a couple feet lower when it let go, would it have hit the fuselage/canopy? Dunno, but it would have been close. BTW, this was a pretty unique incident, as the load from the glider actually broke the Schweizer mounting bolt off the L-19 (yeah, I was young and stupid) which in turn led to the whole rope releasing (rather than breaking the rope). The tow pilot asked me to meet him out behind the main hangar when we got back down, and suffice to say he gave me quite the well-deserved dressing down.
Erik Mann (P3)
September 29th 20, 09:05 PM
On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 11:51:15 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Does anybody have a first hand account of a rope break in which a canopy was factually damaged because the pilot did not make an immediate turn to the left or right?
>
> Please note:This is not my theory. I am only relating what is being taught at a particular club (not the club where I fly now).
It is not at all clear what you are asking.
More clarification would be helpful.
UH
Jonathan St. Cloud
September 29th 20, 10:10 PM
On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 8:51:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Does anybody have a first hand account of a rope break in which a canopy was factually damaged because the pilot did not make an immediate turn to the left or right?
>
> Please note:This is not my theory. I am only relating what is being taught at a particular club (not the club where I fly now).
Before I turned right or left I would put the nose down!
Thank you for the replies and for expanding a bit on the topic. My intent was to be inclusive of both actual and simulated rope breaks in a flight regime where a turn is at least possible whether or not it is accomplished.
When I started digging into this topic I came across a handout from Cindy Brickner published on the SSF website titled "Takeoff Emergencies". Her second bullet point says pretty much what I've seen on simulated breaks.
The dictum related at the club in question was an immediate turn, no matter what. Maybe if I wait long enough I can find out how well that works out of the only place they could possibly land is straight ahead.
Sci Fi
October 1st 20, 12:14 PM
>Before I turned right or left I would put the nose down!
What, right into the downward path of the flying metalwork..?
I think you would have about 0.8 seconds to avoid injury, so maybe a zoom
climb to the right would be better.
Tango Eight
October 1st 20, 01:20 PM
On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 10:43:26 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Thank you for the replies and for expanding a bit on the topic. My intent was to be inclusive of both actual and simulated rope breaks in a flight regime where a turn is at least possible whether or not it is accomplished.
>
> When I started digging into this topic I came across a handout from Cindy Brickner published on the SSF website titled "Takeoff Emergencies". Her second bullet point says pretty much what I've seen on simulated breaks.
>
> The dictum related at the club in question was an immediate turn, no matter what. Maybe if I wait long enough I can find out how well that works out of the only place they could possibly land is straight ahead.
About ropes... one of the smarter things my club has done in the last decade was put rock climbers in charge of ropes. Those guys know rope. We put brand new ropes in service at the start of every season, no exceptions. These are long enough that if an end becomes frayed it can be repaired mid season. A rope that survives a season in "apparently" good condition might end up stored in the back of the tug for aero retrieve duty or in some club member's trailer for other than club use. They never go back to the line.
We have not had any rope failures since these procedures were adopted.
In any actual or simulated emergency, my main priority as an instructor is that the PIC achieves a safe resolution with a minimum of drama. Worrying about getting hit by the rope wasn't even on my radar.
T8
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
October 1st 20, 01:38 PM
Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 9/29/2020 2:10 PM:
> On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 8:51:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>> Does anybody have a first hand account of a rope break in which a canopy was factually damaged because the pilot did not make an immediate turn to the left or right?
>>
>> Please note:This is not my theory. I am only relating what is being taught at a particular club (not the club where I fly now).
> Before I turned right or left I would put the nose down!
>
I've always been towed faster than best glide speed, except for one or two times
when ballasted. If the rope breaks or is released by the tow plane, I typically
raise the nose to slow down to best glide speed - definitely NOT lower it. There
is an exception for very powerful towplanes - 1000 fpm rate of climb powerful -
where the nose would have to be lowered.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
James Metcalfe
October 1st 20, 01:40 PM
At 21:10 29 September 2020, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>...Before I turned right or left I would put the nose down!
For heaven's sake, guys:
(1) Pull the bung
(2) See the rope go
(3) Slow down (and, if you wish, turn)
Notes:
(1a) provided there is no large bow in the rope: you really don't want a
loop of rope around the wing
(2a) a little wiggle in the rope is enough to confirm that it has
separated
(3a) if you slow down, the rings can't hit you!
(3b) some clubs demand a turn, citing safety, but in my view that's
nonsense
(3c) a turn lets the tuggie know you've gone (in case the normal
characteristic longitudinal jerk has not happened, due to slack in the
rope)
J.
Ron Gleason
October 1st 20, 03:14 PM
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 06:20:18 UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 10:43:26 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Thank you for the replies and for expanding a bit on the topic. My intent was to be inclusive of both actual and simulated rope breaks in a flight regime where a turn is at least possible whether or not it is accomplished..
> >
> > When I started digging into this topic I came across a handout from Cindy Brickner published on the SSF website titled "Takeoff Emergencies". Her second bullet point says pretty much what I've seen on simulated breaks.
> >
> > The dictum related at the club in question was an immediate turn, no matter what. Maybe if I wait long enough I can find out how well that works out of the only place they could possibly land is straight ahead.
>
> About ropes... one of the smarter things my club has done in the last decade was put rock climbers in charge of ropes. Those guys know rope. We put brand new ropes in service at the start of every season, no exceptions. These are long enough that if an end becomes frayed it can be repaired mid season. A rope that survives a season in "apparently" good condition might end up stored in the back of the tug for aero retrieve duty or in some club member's trailer for other than club use. They never go back to the line..
>
> We have not had any rope failures since these procedures were adopted.
>
> In any actual or simulated emergency, my main priority as an instructor is that the PIC achieves a safe resolution with a minimum of drama. Worrying about getting hit by the rope wasn't even on my radar.
>
> T8
T8, what material are you using for the ropes? POlyPro, cotton, spectra, other?
Thanks in advance
Tango Eight
October 1st 20, 04:12 PM
On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 10:14:18 AM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Thursday, 1 October 2020 06:20:18 UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 10:43:26 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > Thank you for the replies and for expanding a bit on the topic. My intent was to be inclusive of both actual and simulated rope breaks in a flight regime where a turn is at least possible whether or not it is accomplished.
> > >
> > > When I started digging into this topic I came across a handout from Cindy Brickner published on the SSF website titled "Takeoff Emergencies". Her second bullet point says pretty much what I've seen on simulated breaks.
> > >
> > > The dictum related at the club in question was an immediate turn, no matter what. Maybe if I wait long enough I can find out how well that works out of the only place they could possibly land is straight ahead.
> >
> > About ropes... one of the smarter things my club has done in the last decade was put rock climbers in charge of ropes. Those guys know rope. We put brand new ropes in service at the start of every season, no exceptions. These are long enough that if an end becomes frayed it can be repaired mid season. A rope that survives a season in "apparently" good condition might end up stored in the back of the tug for aero retrieve duty or in some club member's trailer for other than club use. They never go back to the line.
> >
> > We have not had any rope failures since these procedures were adopted.
> >
> > In any actual or simulated emergency, my main priority as an instructor is that the PIC achieves a safe resolution with a minimum of drama. Worrying about getting hit by the rope wasn't even on my radar.
> >
> > T8
> T8, what material are you using for the ropes? POlyPro, cotton, spectra, other?
>
> Thanks in advance
Hollow braid polypropylene, iirc it's 5/16", pretty much the universal USA tow rope. The real art is in how they do the ring ends and the Tost ring adapters (and, of course, being hard core about the "retirement plan". I'll take some pics if interested.
T8
On Friday, October 2, 2020 at 12:15:07 AM UTC+13, Sci Fi wrote:
> >Before I turned right or left I would put the nose down!
>
> What, right into the downward path of the flying metalwork..?
>
> I think you would have about 0.8 seconds to avoid injury, so maybe a zoom
> climb to the right would be better.
I've had several rope breaks in flight.
The rope departs faster than your reaction time. Any turn you initiate is going to be happening after the rope has done what it is going to do. Normally the rope breaks at the glider end leaving the glider with the rings.
The rope will spring back only if released under tension and from the towplane end. If that happens you only have rope coming towards you. It will present little hazard unless you get it draped over the wing or tail and it can jam control surfaces. Very unlikely.
What is very likely, and has happened many times, is the desperate turn back to the runway and the resulting stall/spin.
Better to fly the glider, get it stable, assess your options, do whatever looks safest.
An immediate turn is not likely to be the safest option (depending on your local conditions) and if it is the safest option you still need to fly the glider and get it stable before turning.
All my rope breaks have been at altitude where that wasn't an issue. Ropes tend to break at the start of the ground roll as the glider starts to move or as the result of slack suddenly getting tight due to turbulence/rough handling (which tends to happen higher up).
--
Phil Plane
On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 8:20:18 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 10:43:26 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Thank you for the replies and for expanding a bit on the topic. My intent was to be inclusive of both actual and simulated rope breaks in a flight regime where a turn is at least possible whether or not it is accomplished..
> >
> > When I started digging into this topic I came across a handout from Cindy Brickner published on the SSF website titled "Takeoff Emergencies". Her second bullet point says pretty much what I've seen on simulated breaks.
> >
> > The dictum related at the club in question was an immediate turn, no matter what. Maybe if I wait long enough I can find out how well that works out of the only place they could possibly land is straight ahead.
>
> About ropes... one of the smarter things my club has done in the last decade was put rock climbers in charge of ropes. Those guys know rope. We put brand new ropes in service at the start of every season, no exceptions. These are long enough that if an end becomes frayed it can be repaired mid season. A rope that survives a season in "apparently" good condition might end up stored in the back of the tug for aero retrieve duty or in some club member's trailer for other than club use. They never go back to the line..
>
> We have not had any rope failures since these procedures were adopted.
>
> In any actual or simulated emergency, my main priority as an instructor is that the PIC achieves a safe resolution with a minimum of drama. Worrying about getting hit by the rope wasn't even on my radar.
>
> T8
Quite different from another operation, which shall remain nameless here (not my current club). Some 10 years ago I went there for a start-of-season flight, and they got the towplane ready and then needed a rope. So they went looking around on the grass alongside the runway, and found a rope - that was there since the end of the previous season, sometimes in the sun, sometimes under snow.
On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 3:10:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Friday, October 2, 2020 at 12:15:07 AM UTC+13, Sci Fi wrote:
> > >Before I turned right or left I would put the nose down!
> >
> > What, right into the downward path of the flying metalwork..?
> >
> > I think you would have about 0.8 seconds to avoid injury, so maybe a zoom
> > climb to the right would be better.
> I've had several rope breaks in flight.
>
> The rope departs faster than your reaction time. Any turn you initiate is going to be happening after the rope has done what it is going to do. Normally the rope breaks at the glider end leaving the glider with the rings.
>
> The rope will spring back only if released under tension and from the towplane end. If that happens you only have rope coming towards you. It will present little hazard unless you get it draped over the wing or tail and it can jam control surfaces. Very unlikely.
>
> What is very likely, and has happened many times, is the desperate turn back to the runway and the resulting stall/spin.
>
> Better to fly the glider, get it stable, assess your options, do whatever looks safest.
>
> An immediate turn is not likely to be the safest option (depending on your local conditions) and if it is the safest option you still need to fly the glider and get it stable before turning.
>
> All my rope breaks have been at altitude where that wasn't an issue. Ropes tend to break at the start of the ground roll as the glider starts to move or as the result of slack suddenly getting tight due to turbulence/rough handling (which tends to happen higher up).
>
> --
> Phil Plane
I had a tug failure a week ago and it was a non event.
Power loss, release and turn back to land.
If the rope breaks at the forward end it will go under the glider unless the glider is terribly low on tow(well below proper low tow position).
I teach:
1- Have a plan on every takeoff that covers where to go at each decision point. Straight ahead if not enough energy to do a return.
2- Upon release or separation establish a normal gliding attitude for the pattern. Some instructors teach pushing the nose down. The glider is usually in a higher nose up attitude on tow than gliding flight.
3- If enough energy is available, turn back at a moderately steep turn (30 to 45 degrees) in the direction planned in 1 to give the shortest way back and get to "normal" as soon as possible.
4 If not enough energy is available to turn, land ahead in the best available area. If the area is bad, have the accident at the lowest energy possible, while maintaining control.
It is worth noting that if you do not have a plan, you are unlikely to solve the problem on the spot.
For what it may be worth, I have never had a rope break, except failure at the ring on initial acceleration, in over 12000 glider flights. I have had a few tug failures on both ends of the rope.
FWIW
UH
FWIW
UH
Jim Kellett
October 2nd 20, 03:39 PM
On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 7:29:47 PM UTC-4, UH wrote:
For what it may be worth, I have never had a rope break, except failure at the ring on initial acceleration, in over 12000 glider flights. I have had a few tug failures on both ends of the rope.
Sor of the same experience here . . in 55 years of flying gliders, I've had two rope breaks - one in rotor when a violent pitch oscillation by the towplane sent a wave down the rope that back released the CG hook on my Cirrus, and another at ca. 3000' when the towplane's defective release sent a cloud or rope heading my way. Both were non-events. And I can't remember a tow failure after airborne that we always train for, but several while still on the takeoff roll and a couple at pattern altitude or higher.
Skyline's Resident Curmudgeon
Dan Marotta
October 2nd 20, 04:04 PM
Did you take the tow?
On 10/1/2020 5:17 PM, wrote:
> On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 8:20:18 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 10:43:26 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>>> Thank you for the replies and for expanding a bit on the topic. My intent was to be inclusive of both actual and simulated rope breaks in a flight regime where a turn is at least possible whether or not it is accomplished.
>>>
>>> When I started digging into this topic I came across a handout from Cindy Brickner published on the SSF website titled "Takeoff Emergencies". Her second bullet point says pretty much what I've seen on simulated breaks.
>>>
>>> The dictum related at the club in question was an immediate turn, no matter what. Maybe if I wait long enough I can find out how well that works out of the only place they could possibly land is straight ahead.
>> About ropes... one of the smarter things my club has done in the last decade was put rock climbers in charge of ropes. Those guys know rope. We put brand new ropes in service at the start of every season, no exceptions. These are long enough that if an end becomes frayed it can be repaired mid season. A rope that survives a season in "apparently" good condition might end up stored in the back of the tug for aero retrieve duty or in some club member's trailer for other than club use. They never go back to the line.
>>
>> We have not had any rope failures since these procedures were adopted.
>>
>> In any actual or simulated emergency, my main priority as an instructor is that the PIC achieves a safe resolution with a minimum of drama. Worrying about getting hit by the rope wasn't even on my radar.
>>
>> T8
> Quite different from another operation, which shall remain nameless here (not my current club). Some 10 years ago I went there for a start-of-season flight, and they got the towplane ready and then needed a rope. So they went looking around on the grass alongside the runway, and found a rope - that was there since the end of the previous season, sometimes in the sun, sometimes under snow.
--
Dan, 5J
Dan Marotta
October 2nd 20, 04:08 PM
I had a rope break at about 700' AGL during an auto tow while on
safari.Â* I climbed away.Â* When I landed, the wheel overran the two feet
of rope hanging from the release and it back released, saving the Tost
ring for the next day's flight.Â* It was a conscious decision not to pull
the release after the rope break.
On 10/2/2020 8:39 AM, Jim Kellett wrote:
> On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 7:29:47 PM UTC-4, UH wrote:
> For what it may be worth, I have never had a rope break, except failure at the ring on initial acceleration, in over 12000 glider flights. I have had a few tug failures on both ends of the rope.
>
> Sor of the same experience here . . in 55 years of flying gliders, I've had two rope breaks - one in rotor when a violent pitch oscillation by the towplane sent a wave down the rope that back released the CG hook on my Cirrus, and another at ca. 3000' when the towplane's defective release sent a cloud or rope heading my way. Both were non-events. And I can't remember a tow failure after airborne that we always train for, but several while still on the takeoff roll and a couple at pattern altitude or higher.
> Skyline's Resident Curmudgeon
--
Dan, 5J
john firth
October 2nd 20, 10:29 PM
On Friday, October 2, 2020 at 10:09:12 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I had a rope break at about 700' AGL during an auto tow while on
> safari. I climbed away. When I landed, the wheel overran the two feet
> of rope hanging from the release and it back released, saving the Tost
> ring for the next day's flight. It was a conscious decision not to pull
> the release after the rope break.
> On 10/2/2020 8:39 AM, Jim Kellett wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 7:29:47 PM UTC-4, UH wrote:
> > For what it may be worth, I have never had a rope break, except failure at the ring on initial acceleration, in over 12000 glider flights. I have had a few tug failures on both ends of the rope.
> >
> > Sor of the same experience here . . in 55 years of flying gliders, I've had two rope breaks - one in rotor when a violent pitch oscillation by the towplane sent a wave down the rope that back released the CG hook on my Cirrus, and another at ca. 3000' when the towplane's defective release sent a cloud or rope heading my way. Both were non-events. And I can't remember a tow failure after airborne that we always train for, but several while still on the takeoff roll and a couple at pattern altitude or higher.
> > Skyline's Resident Curmudgeon
> --
> Dan, 5J
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