Draconian Club Checkrides?

[Chris Schmelzer]

I wanted to run this by everyone to see if I was being reasonable being
upset.

I started flying as a student in December, 2003. I joined a local
non-profit club to do my training and flew exclusively with them for
almost a year.

This includes approximately 50 hours of time in two C152s, including
12-15 hours of local solo time, night xc, night landings, etc.

When it came to the time where I was ready to solo xc my instructor kept
stalling, calling for more 'ground time' before I could do my stage
check, in what I believe was a combination of his inexperience and need
for a few bucks.

Anyhow, I ended up firing my CFI and completed my training at Stinson
Field in San Antonio (in C172s) while there on Air Force active duty
over the past two months. Past my written and my checkride on the first
try and now hold a full private pilot.

Now I'm back home and want to fly with the club. My last flight in the
152 with my old instructor was within 100 days or so as was my last solo
in that aircraft. I inquired about getting checked out in the clubs
C172 and they are saying two full lesson slots, probably 4 hours of
instructor time (including re-proving navigation ability) for the 172,
despite me having 14 hours in the last 60 days in a C172.

But that isn't the big kicker! They won't let me fly the C152s! They
want me to do a full checkout (2-3 hours minimum) in the VERY 152s I was
solo signed off on just 3 months prior! Doesn't this seem a little
ridiculous? They felt I was competent to fly them as a STUDENT after
the CFI said "go fly" but now that the FAA says I'm qualified to fly
without a CFI I have to do a 2-3 hour checkride in the exact same
airplane?

Does this make ANY sense to any of you? I can walk across the tarmac
and fly with the private FBO for almost the same price and they are
saying a single hour checkride for a current pilot!

Just really painful after paying monthly dues to the club for so long.
I mean, after I finished my PPL checkride at Stinson, they didn't then
say, "Well, you can fly after a checkride!"

--
Chris Schmelzer, MD
Capt, 110th Fighter Michigan ANG
University of Michigan Hospitals
Ann Arbor, MI

[KayInPA]

Hi Chris,

Club rules can be mystifying at times. I understand you're upset. I
belong to a club, and we also have strict rules about being checked out
again if we haven't flown the aircraft within 90 days, no matter how
much we may fly elsewhere. All the rules, even the mystifying ones,
are there for a reason though. Usually, a result of one specific
incident from the past and there to protect pilots and airplanes from
future repetitions.

That may or may not be the case with your club, but it's worth thinking
about.

My suggestion is to look at it like this: every flight with an
instructor is valuable. Why not go up and do something new with
him/her and challenge yourself with the lesson? You may find it pays
dividends down the road.

Best of luck to you, and congrats on that certificate!
Kay

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Chris Schmelzer wrote:
> Does this make ANY sense to any of you? I can walk across the tarmac
> and fly with the private FBO for almost the same price and they are
> saying a single hour checkride for a current pilot!
>
> Just really painful after paying monthly dues to the club for so long.


I understand your reticence but I would leave that Mickey Mouse outfit behind
and rent from a real FBO. No dues. You only pay for what you actually do.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Jay Honeck]

> Does this make ANY sense to any of you? I can walk across the tarmac
> and fly with the private FBO for almost the same price and they are
> saying a single hour checkride for a current pilot!

Why continue to screw around with a flying club that obviously doesn't have
your interests at heart?

Either fly the pants off the FBO planes, or buy yourself a nice little
Cherokee 140/Skyhawk/152. You'll be much happier.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Robert M. Gary]

Keeps the CFIs busy. I remember joining a local club to fly their J-3
after I got rid of the Aeronca. Since the club normally flew 172s I had
to checkout in a 172 with a senior club CFI and then check out in the
J-3 with the one CFI who was tailwheel certified (and not "senior").
However, they had the keys to the J-3 and I wanted them so I just did
what they said. After owning a Mooney for many years it was interesting
to fly the 172.BTW: The 172 checkout was almost an hour. The J-3
checkout was just 3 landings. This was about 3 years ago.

-Robert, CFI

[W P Dixon]

Amen Mortimer!
I'd tell them to stick thier 152 where the sun doesn't shine. Like Mort
said rent for a regular FBO and pay for what you are getting, because it
sure sounds like you are getting ripped off. Really it sounds like they may
even be ****ed at you because you went somewhere else and finished. I
wouldn't give them a dime of my money.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
om...
> Chris Schmelzer wrote:
>> Does this make ANY sense to any of you? I can walk across the tarmac
>> and fly with the private FBO for almost the same price and they are
>> saying a single hour checkride for a current pilot!
>>
>> Just really painful after paying monthly dues to the club for so long.
>
>
> I understand your reticence but I would leave that Mickey Mouse outfit
> behind and rent from a real FBO. No dues. You only pay for what you
> actually do.
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>
>
>
>

[Chris Schmelzer]

In article m>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> Keeps the CFIs busy. I remember joining a local club to fly their J-3
> after I got rid of the Aeronca. Since the club normally flew 172s I had
> to checkout in a 172 with a senior club CFI and then check out in the
> J-3 with the one CFI who was tailwheel certified (and not "senior").
> However, they had the keys to the J-3 and I wanted them so I just did
> what they said. After owning a Mooney for many years it was interesting
> to fly the 172.BTW: The 172 checkout was almost an hour. The J-3
> checkout was just 3 landings. This was about 3 years ago.
>
> -Robert, CFI


The funny thing about it is when I went to the OTHER flight school it
was actually easier to get the key to the planes THERE than it was at my
original school/FBO!

The CFI's here are all very young, low hour types pretty fresh out of
school. The CFI's at Check-Six at Stinson are all VERY senior, my
particular instructor was in the mid-4xxx hour and the operations guy
was a former F-15 driver.

I think, like many things, experience lets you know what is important
and what isn't and allows you to go by feel as to who is a good stick
and who isn't. I don't think my local club has that ability due to
youth and inexperience!

--
Chris Schmelzer, MD
Capt, 110th Fighter Michigan ANG
University of Michigan Hospitals
Ann Arbor, MI

[Peter Duniho]

"Chris Schmelzer" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> Now I'm back home and want to fly with the club.

I was following you okay until I got to that sentence. Then, all I could
think was "huh?"

It sounds like you left the club for a good reason. Why'd you go back? And
now that it seems they are yanking your chain some more, why are you wasting
any emotional effort getting upset about it? Just find somewhere that
doesn't have silly check-out policies like they do. (And they ARE being
silly).

Pete

[Clay]

When I do a checkout I tell them in advance what is expected.
After the ground rules and rituals of renting are explained, we fly.
Normal, short field and x-wind take off and landing.
Stalls, slow flight and emergency landing proceedures.
I have done checkouts which have lasted more than an hour but most are
less than an hour.
If the person is close to the time a BFR is due, the checkout can be
tailored to meet the FAA requirements. This is all explained in
advance of the flight.
I agree it seems silly to have to be checked out everytime you rent
somewhere new.
You must realize they have to cover their rears. Their rational is
just because a person may have a current pilot certificate, medical,
and logged time in a perticular make and model does not always mean the
person is qualified to fly. Insurance requirements are not always the
same.
Use the checkout to hone your skills and show the CFI you are a pilot.
Fly like you are on a check ride with the D.E.

[tony roberts]

The problem is that you asking us,
when you should be asking them.

It is very possible that it is an insurance requirement - go talk to
them! Ask THEM why.
If you can't even talk to them, then you shouldn't be wanting to fly
with them.

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE



In article >,
Chris Schmelzer > wrote:

> I wanted to run this by everyone to see if I was being reasonable being
> upset.
>
> I started flying as a student in December, 2003. I joined a local
> non-profit club to do my training and flew exclusively with them for
> almost a year.
>
> This includes approximately 50 hours of time in two C152s, including
> 12-15 hours of local solo time, night xc, night landings, etc.
>
> When it came to the time where I was ready to solo xc my instructor kept
> stalling, calling for more 'ground time' before I could do my stage
> check, in what I believe was a combination of his inexperience and need
> for a few bucks.
>
> Anyhow, I ended up firing my CFI and completed my training at Stinson
> Field in San Antonio (in C172s) while there on Air Force active duty
> over the past two months. Past my written and my checkride on the first
> try and now hold a full private pilot.
>
> Now I'm back home and want to fly with the club. My last flight in the
> 152 with my old instructor was within 100 days or so as was my last solo
> in that aircraft. I inquired about getting checked out in the clubs
> C172 and they are saying two full lesson slots, probably 4 hours of
> instructor time (including re-proving navigation ability) for the 172,
> despite me having 14 hours in the last 60 days in a C172.
>
> But that isn't the big kicker! They won't let me fly the C152s! They
> want me to do a full checkout (2-3 hours minimum) in the VERY 152s I was
> solo signed off on just 3 months prior! Doesn't this seem a little
> ridiculous? They felt I was competent to fly them as a STUDENT after
> the CFI said "go fly" but now that the FAA says I'm qualified to fly
> without a CFI I have to do a 2-3 hour checkride in the exact same
> airplane?
>
> Does this make ANY sense to any of you? I can walk across the tarmac
> and fly with the private FBO for almost the same price and they are
> saying a single hour checkride for a current pilot!
>
> Just really painful after paying monthly dues to the club for so long.
> I mean, after I finished my PPL checkride at Stinson, they didn't then
> say, "Well, you can fly after a checkride!"

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

tony roberts wrote:
> It is very possible that it is an insurance requirement - go talk to
> them! Ask THEM why.


So what if it is? They're going to run him through this song and dance every
three months any time he doesn't fly a particular model? Back in the days when
I was renting regularly, I would get a checkout in a particular model and that
was it. Maybe an hour, never to be repeated, even if I hadn't flown that
particular model for a good while.

If the flying club has insurance that crappy, that doesn't change the fact they
have PITA policies in place. Take the train.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Chris Schmelzer]

In article . com>,
"Clay" > wrote:

> When I do a checkout I tell them in advance what is expected.
> After the ground rules and rituals of renting are explained, we fly.
> Normal, short field and x-wind take off and landing.
> Stalls, slow flight and emergency landing proceedures.
> I have done checkouts which have lasted more than an hour but most are
> less than an hour.
> If the person is close to the time a BFR is due, the checkout can be
> tailored to meet the FAA requirements. This is all explained in
> advance of the flight.
> I agree it seems silly to have to be checked out everytime you rent
> somewhere new.
> You must realize they have to cover their rears. Their rational is
> just because a person may have a current pilot certificate, medical,
> and logged time in a perticular make and model does not always mean the
> person is qualified to fly. Insurance requirements are not always the
> same.
> Use the checkout to hone your skills and show the CFI you are a pilot.
> Fly like you are on a check ride with the D.E.

Yes, but I've flow with this CFI in the last 6 months in these very
152s! A full presolo stage check!

--
Chris Schmelzer, MD
Capt, 110th Fighter Michigan ANG
University of Michigan Hospitals
Ann Arbor, MI

[Steve Foley]

How gracefully did you fire the CFI? Sounds like you may have burned a
bridge.

"Chris Schmelzer" > wrote in message
...

> Anyhow, I ended up firing my CFI

[OtisWinslow]

Sounds to me like they're just trying to run up the hours for
the CFIs. I've never had a checkout that lasted more than
an hour. Whether giving or receiving one.


"Chris Schmelzer" > wrote in message
...
>I wanted to run this by everyone to see if I was being reasonable being
> upset.
>
> I started flying as a student in December, 2003. I joined a local
> non-profit club to do my training and flew exclusively with them for
> almost a year.
>
> This includes approximately 50 hours of time in two C152s, including
> 12-15 hours of local solo time, night xc, night landings, etc.
>
> When it came to the time where I was ready to solo xc my instructor kept
> stalling, calling for more 'ground time' before I could do my stage
> check, in what I believe was a combination of his inexperience and need
> for a few bucks.
>
> Anyhow, I ended up firing my CFI and completed my training at Stinson
> Field in San Antonio (in C172s) while there on Air Force active duty
> over the past two months. Past my written and my checkride on the first
> try and now hold a full private pilot.
>
> Now I'm back home and want to fly with the club. My last flight in the
> 152 with my old instructor was within 100 days or so as was my last solo
> in that aircraft. I inquired about getting checked out in the clubs
> C172 and they are saying two full lesson slots, probably 4 hours of
> instructor time (including re-proving navigation ability) for the 172,
> despite me having 14 hours in the last 60 days in a C172.
>
> But that isn't the big kicker! They won't let me fly the C152s! They
> want me to do a full checkout (2-3 hours minimum) in the VERY 152s I was
> solo signed off on just 3 months prior! Doesn't this seem a little
> ridiculous? They felt I was competent to fly them as a STUDENT after
> the CFI said "go fly" but now that the FAA says I'm qualified to fly
> without a CFI I have to do a 2-3 hour checkride in the exact same
> airplane?
>
> Does this make ANY sense to any of you? I can walk across the tarmac
> and fly with the private FBO for almost the same price and they are
> saying a single hour checkride for a current pilot!
>
> Just really painful after paying monthly dues to the club for so long.
> I mean, after I finished my PPL checkride at Stinson, they didn't then
> say, "Well, you can fly after a checkride!"
>
> --
> Chris Schmelzer, MD
> Capt, 110th Fighter Michigan ANG
> University of Michigan Hospitals
> Ann Arbor, MI

[Dave S]

Hey there Mort! I didn't know you flew (I see you in the Nursing
newsgroup)..

I will admit it sounds like THIS club is overly draconian, but not all are.

I have had the pleasure of being a member of two separate flying clubs
that assessed monthly dues, one of which continues to operate (Bay Area
Aero Club @ KLVJ and "The Flying Group" formerly of KEFD, both in/near
Houston)

Monthly dues in their latest form were about $20/month. For that fee,
you had access to a fleet that ranged as large as 10 planes (this
varied, all were leasebacks), were well maintained, less abused
(subjective, I know), MORE available and all around just nicer looking
than your typical flight school rental fleet. We had online scheduling,
true 24 hour access with keys in a lockbox, the still-functioning club
(Bay Area) truly insures the pilot, plane and occupants so that renters
insurance is not necessary (yes... I did say the PILOT was covered, no
subrogation here).

If you fly more than a few hours a month, the dues "disappear" into the
hourly cost and really arent that noticeable. The appeal to the clubs so
far has been the fleet: Many of the leasebacks have nice (430's, MFD's)
avionics packages, are clean and well appointed inside. Its not a big
deal to rent one over the weekend for a cross country trip. Most of the
local flight schools balk at a long trip in one of their planes, when it
could be making twice as many hours working instruction locally.

So.. yea.. that club in question doesn't seem to be "all that"... but...
I have to wonder.. when you (original poster) joined the club, didn't
they orient you to the organization, and explicitly describe the
check-out requirements and rules? or did you just join up and start
instruction without any knowledge of what the rules were?

Dave

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

> Chris Schmelzer wrote:
>
>>Does this make ANY sense to any of you? I can walk across the tarmac
>>and fly with the private FBO for almost the same price and they are
>>saying a single hour checkride for a current pilot!
>>
>>Just really painful after paying monthly dues to the club for so long.
>
>
>
> I understand your reticence but I would leave that Mickey Mouse outfit behind
> and rent from a real FBO. No dues. You only pay for what you actually do.
>
>
>

[Michael]

> Does this make ANY sense to any of you?

Yes, it makes perfect sense. The kind of people who like to make rules
join clubs so they can. There are a few good clubs out there, and the
majority are like the one you're dealing with. Go down the road to the
FBO.

BTW - an instructor who needs more than 30 minutes to figure out if you
can fly competently is himself incompetent.

Michael

[Dan Luke]

"Michael" wrote:
> > Does this make ANY sense to any of you?
>
> Yes, it makes perfect sense. The kind of people who like to make rules
> join clubs so they can.

Yep, and they rise to the top because the other people in the club want to do
what the club's really about: fly, hunt, restore old cars, whatever, so the
mini-Hitlers become officers by default.

> There are a few good clubs out there, and the
> majority are like the one you're dealing with.

I must say that the current edition of my aero club strikes a nice balance
between rules and freedom thanks to a long serving, sensible president. As
in all organizations, leadership is everything.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Robert M. Gary]

But do you do a 1 hour checkout in a 152 right after checking the guy
out in a 172? Most places don't require any checkout for a 152 for 172
drivers.

-Robert, CFI

[Chris Schmelzer]

In article om>,
"Michael" > wrote:

> > Does this make ANY sense to any of you?
>
> Yes, it makes perfect sense. The kind of people who like to make rules
> join clubs so they can. There are a few good clubs out there, and the
> majority are like the one you're dealing with. Go down the road to the
> FBO.
>
> BTW - an instructor who needs more than 30 minutes to figure out if you
> can fly competently is himself incompetent.
>
> Michael



I agree with the BTW statement. When I taught ACLS (Advanced Cardiac
Life Support) I could figure out in less than 10 whether someone was
going to be a star or a flop. In fact, the longer the scenario went on,
the worse the student was performing.

My checkride was about 2 hours (a leisurely two hours) of discussion,
which actually was a lot of fun believe it or not. My in-air time was
less than an hour, as everything he asked me to do was snap snap snap,
right by the book, just as I had trainedd.

I'm going to drop my club membership and go with the private FBO who
seems MORE than happy to jump at taking care of me. I did have to buy
renters insurance to cover liability and $5k deductibles, but it was
only $200, and I renewed my AOPA and added the legal plan at the same
time..

-Chris

--
Chris Schmelzer, MD
Capt, 110th Fighter Michigan ANG
University of Michigan Hospitals
Ann Arbor, MI

[Gary Drescher]

"Chris Schmelzer" > wrote in message
...
> Now I'm back home and want to fly with the club. My last flight in the
> 152 with my old instructor was within 100 days or so as was my last solo
> in that aircraft. I inquired about getting checked out in the clubs
> C172 and they are saying two full lesson slots, probably 4 hours of
> instructor time (including re-proving navigation ability) for the 172,
> despite me having 14 hours in the last 60 days in a C172.
>
> But that isn't the big kicker! They won't let me fly the C152s! They
> want me to do a full checkout (2-3 hours minimum) in the VERY 152s I was
> solo signed off on just 3 months prior! Doesn't this seem a little
> ridiculous?

I've rented from eight different FBOs from the east coast to the west coast.
All require a checkout ride in any make and model of plane that you haven't
rented from them within the previous 90 days. However, they only require a
one-hour checkout ride (if all goes well). And I believe (though I'm not
certain) that they would probably waive a 152 checkout if you're current
with them for 172s, and have flown their 152s in the fairly recent past.

--Gary

[Mike Beede]

In article >,
Chris Schmelzer > wrote:

> Just really painful after paying monthly dues to the club for so long.
> I mean, after I finished my PPL checkride at Stinson, they didn't then
> say, "Well, you can fly after a checkride!"

If it's a real club, maybe you can get together with some
other members and vote out the board. Alternatively, go to
a club meeting and raise the issue. It may turn out to
be insurance restrictions, or it may turn out to be a
Napoleon complex. In either case, it will probably
clarify what you want to do.

Mike Beede

[John Galban]

KayInPA wrote:
> All the rules, even the mystifying ones,
> are there for a reason though. Usually, a result of one specific
> incident from the past and there to protect pilots and airplanes from
> future repetitions.

You're right Kay. Sometimes the reason is to turn checkout flights
into a profit center. You didn't say that all of the rules existed for
a "good" reason :-))

If I were the OP, I'd lose this outfit. 4 hrs for a 172 checkout is
nothing more the blantant milking. Sure, flying with an instructor may
not be a bad idea, but the fact that they're forcing a long checkout,
plus the fact that they won't let him fly in the 152 that he's
currently checked out in, raises a whole bunch of red flags.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[KayInPA]

John Galban wrote:
> You didn't say that all of the rules existed for a "good" reason :-))
Too true. There are a number of rules at my club that are, to use a
polite word, asinine.

> 4 hrs for a 172 checkout is nothing more the blantant milking.
It seems excessive for a known competent pilot.

> Sure, flying with an instructor may not be a bad idea, but the fact
> that they're forcing a long checkout, plus the fact that they won't
> let him fly in the 152 that he's currently checked out in,
> raises a whole bunch of red flags.
But according to the club rules, he's not currently checked out.

I agree with you. If the rules are upsetting to the OP, he should
leave the club. My guess is that his road to flying happiness will be
better found with alternate arrangements than with fighting a club's
city hall.

That said, for me personally, I didn't find the checkout rules at my
club to be restrictive. I was a brand new pilot when I joined, and
eager to learn from as many people as possible. Still am. The club
aircraft is really nice, usually available, and exceedingly
cost-effective. In exchange, I'm willing to go by club rules and in
some cases (such as with instruction), make them into positives.

I recognize that's not possible in all cases.

:)
Kay

[Clay]

BTW - an instructor who needs more than 30 minutes to figure out if you

can fly competently is himself incompetent.

I agree. 30 minutes to see if they are competent is reasonable but
some people will need additional time to make them competent.
Some pilots have it and some do not. The same goes for a CFI.

[Greg Farris]

I saw a club last year that had just suffered an accident (no injuries) in
one of their 172's. Apparently eager to impress their insurance company,
the chief pilot issued a new check-ride proceedure, which - on paper at
least - listed everything in the book and then some! I chuckled when I read
it. I mean, "recovery from heavy bounced landing" - I'm not sure how many
CFI's really want to go out there and do that. Then when it said "recovery
from stall on approach", well I guess they mean "simulated at altitude",
but I had a mental picture of a white-knuckled CFI forcing the prospective
renter to stall at 300 AGL on final and see if he can come out alive! If he
had thought of it, he probably would have listed "in-flight fire" as well -
go out to the training area and set the thing on fire to see of the renter
is sharp enough to get back alive!

The accident they had was a typical - too fast, high flare, nose-over
incident, which, as usual, damaged the plane but not the pilot. My guess is
the chief pilot is trying to stave off an insurance premium increase, but
the checkrides will continue as before. I agree with the one who posted "if
it take the CFI more than half an hour to determine your level of
competence, he is himself incompetent".

G Faris

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Dan Luke wrote:
>> Yes, it makes perfect sense. The kind of people who like to make rules
>> join clubs so they can.
>
> Yep, and they rise to the top because the other people in the club want to do
> what the club's really about: fly, hunt, restore old cars, whatever, so the
> mini-Hitlers become officers by default.

We had a pretty good system in the club I was in when I lived in Houston
- the club board couldn't change the club bylaws and SOPs by fiat - any
change to the basic club rules had to be voted through by the
membership. This kept petty rule making to a minimum; the bylaws/SOPs
relating to checkouts etc. were pretty much what you'd find at any FBO,
including things like a check out in an Arrow was good for a Warrior
too. (Unlike many FBOs in our area, we did NOT have restrictions on
private or turf or short fields - the only requirement for the airfield
you wanted to use is that it was charted. I often flew the Bonanza to
the glider club).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"