Learning to be a helicoper pilot

[None]

Sorry if this is a FAQ - a friend of mine heard a commercial on the radio to
learn to be a helicoper pilot from Silver State Helicopers. He doesn't know
much about the internet, but asked me if I could find post on this group for
him.

* Is learning to be a helicoper pilot a reasonable thing to start to do at
53 years of age?

* How long does it take before you can start earning a living doing this?

* What would I expect to spend in tuition?

* Any other recommendations for schools?

Thanks!

Scotty

[Beav]

"None" > wrote in message
news:%w6ee.3293$Fa1.2299@fed1read02...
> Sorry if this is a FAQ - a friend of mine heard a commercial on the radio
> to
> learn to be a helicoper pilot from Silver State Helicopers. He doesn't
> know
> much about the internet, but asked me if I could find post on this group
> for
> him.
>
> * Is learning to be a helicoper pilot a reasonable thing to start to do at
> 53 years of age?

You're never too old to learn, it just takes longer. In some cases MUCH
longer.
>
> * How long does it take before you can start earning a living doing this?

AAAHHHHH, a completely different question and one that I suspect he won't
like the answer to. Think "1000 hours experience" as a minimum and then
think "How am I going to log all those hours?"

>
> * What would I expect to spend in tuition?

"I"? I thought this was for your friend? :-)) Anyway, the simple answer is
"Lots". Over here in the UK, we'd expect to pay around 15,000 GBP (around 30
grand US) just for starters.



--
Beav

Reply to "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com" (with the obvious
changes)

[Steve R.]

"Beav" > wrote in message
...
>
>> * What would I expect to spend in tuition?
>
> "I"? I thought this was for your friend? :-)) Anyway, the simple answer is
> "Lots". Over here in the UK, we'd expect to pay around 15,000 GBP (around
> 30 grand US) just for starters.
>
>
>
> --
> Beav

Personally, I think Beav's being "real" conservative here if you're talking
about gaining enough experience to attract employment! :-)

I would think that "the OTHER Kevin" could give you a pretty good idea. Has
he answered this one and I missed it?

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[None]

Just a short note to say thanks to all who responded - it's amazing what you
can learn on the internet! Sounds like my friend might be better off
becoming a trucker...

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message ...
> On Wed, 4 May 2005 09:13:47 -0700, "None" > wrote:
>
> >Sorry if this is a FAQ - a friend of mine heard a commercial on the radio
to
> >learn to be a helicoper pilot from Silver State Helicopers. He doesn't
know
> >much about the internet, but asked me if I could find post on this group
for
> >him.
>
> The SSH seminar is one big sales pitch so take EVERYTHING that's said
> with a grain of salt. A BIG one. Search this group for Silver State
> Helicopters and see what others (including myself) have said. Also
> hit up www.justhelicopters.com and check out the forums for more
> feedback.
>
> >* Is learning to be a helicoper pilot a reasonable thing to start to do
at
> >53 years of age?
>
> Personally, I'd think REAL hard if I were 53 and starting such an
> adventure. I started at 39 and it took me nearly 10 months just to
> get my private helicopter rating. (Passed my check ride on 3/7 of
> this year) I anticipate having my CFII by the end of 2005 and then the
> real work can begin as I work towards the magic 1,000 hour mark.
>
> >* How long does it take before you can start earning a living doing this?
>
> I estimated it would take me about 5 years to be able to really make a
> decent living flying helos, but the reality is it will probably take
> much longer since I'm focusing on a specific type of flying. (Fire
> fighting with S64 Skycranes) Unless you're very well off or win the
> lottery, you're going to have to instruct to get to the thousand hour
> mark you'll need to be at to even THINK about flying for a living.
> Yes, there are ads for jobs that require only 300 hours, but they
> probably don't pay much and I'd bet they're less than "safe". (in as
> much as flying can be considered "safe")
>
> Since I started I've picked up a job in the aviation field, and I do
> "fly" quite a bit, but it's in simulators (Some of which I can legally
> log) so my experience is quite the exception.
>
> >* What would I expect to spend in tuition?
>
> SSH's price is right around $55,000 to get you to your CFI. HOWEVER,
> SSH says you'll get 175 hours for this fee. Guess how many hours you
> need to be able to instruct.... If you guessed 175, you're 25 short.
> Who do you think is gonna pick up the tab for that extra 25 hours at
> $200/hour?? That's comin' outta your pocket unless you can weasel
> that into your financing.
>
> That $55k assumes you've got half a brain and some coordination and
> can absorb all this information *AND* fly safely within a reasonable
> time. I know some people who are knocking on the 100 hour mark and
> have YET to get their privates. (Hell some are pushing 60 and not yet
> soloed!)
>
> There is a LOT of information to learn as you progress through your
> training and it never, ever stops. You'll keep learning as long as
> you fly and if you don't, you probably won't last too long. You've
> got to be committed (Yeah, in THAT way too! ehehhe) to the task at
> hand. I spent all of last summer with my nose buried in books at the
> exclusion of pretty much everything else. The payoff was well worth
> it in the end.
>
> >* Any other recommendations for schools?
>
> What part of the country is your friend in?? Is he/she willing to
> relocate??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Matt Barrow]

"None" > wrote in message
news:R5Cee.3442$Fa1.1171@fed1read02...
> Just a short note to say thanks to all who responded - it's amazing what
you
> can learn on the internet! Sounds like my friend might be better off

> becoming a trucker...

He might be too old for that as well!! :>)

[Beav]

"None" > wrote in message
news:R5Cee.3442$Fa1.1171@fed1read02...
> Just a short note to say thanks to all who responded - it's amazing what
> you
> can learn on the internet! Sounds like my friend might be better off
> becoming a trucker...

He'd probably earn money more between now and retirement age if he does.
That's always assuming getting a license to drive trucks doesn't cost an arm
and a leg like it does over here in the UK.

Beav

[Simon Robbins]

"Beav" > wrote in message
...

> "I"? I thought this was for your friend? :-)) Anyway, the simple answer is
> "Lots". Over here in the UK, we'd expect to pay around 15,000 GBP (around
30
> grand US) just for starters.

£15k will get you the PPL easily, but bear in mind he's asking about how
much it would cost before he could start earning from it.

Considering the two popular routes available, instructing or straight to
charter, the costs would be more like:

£13,000 PPL
£27,500 to build up to 155 hours
£9,000 to complete CPL
£20,000 to build up to 250 hours (which I think is the new legal min for
instructing)
£9,000 to do instructor course.

So, that's £80k just to earn about £25k a year, if you're lucky as an
instructor.

Or,

£45,000 to do full-time study and training up to CPL.
£30,000 to do IFR on a twin-turbine.

Of course with this option you still wont find work unless the North Sea
operators get desperate and hire you as a co-pilot, though at 53 that's
very, very unliekly I'm afraid. (£35k starting salary seems to be in the
ball-park these days.) No one else is going to hire you to fly their
turbine helis with so little hours as a single-pilot captain, unless you're
*extremely* lucky or well connected.

Put bluntly, it's a joke. It'll take the length of a full career just to
make your money back, not forgetting you'll likely need to spend a good deal
more on type conversions just to make yourse'f more marketable. I can think
of no other career that costs so much to do and returns so little. If you
look towards doing training in the US or South Africa you can pretty much
half all those costs.

Si

[Beav]

"Simon Robbins" > wrote in message
...
> "Beav" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> "I"? I thought this was for your friend? :-)) Anyway, the simple answer
>> is
>> "Lots". Over here in the UK, we'd expect to pay around 15,000 GBP (around
> 30
>> grand US) just for starters.
>
> £15k will get you the PPL easily, but bear in mind he's asking about how
> much it would cost before he could start earning from it.

Too right Si, which is why I added the "for starters" bit. At 53, it's not a
"career path" I'd be lusting after anyway.

<Snip informative rest>


--
Beav

Reply to "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com" (with the obvious
changes)

[Matt Barrow]

"Beav" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Simon Robbins" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Beav" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >> "I"? I thought this was for your friend? :-)) Anyway, the simple answer
> >> is
> >> "Lots". Over here in the UK, we'd expect to pay around 15,000 GBP
(around
> > 30
> >> grand US) just for starters.
> >
> > £15k will get you the PPL easily, but bear in mind he's asking about how
> > much it would cost before he could start earning from it.
>
> Too right Si, which is why I added the "for starters" bit. At 53, it's not
a
> "career path" I'd be lusting after anyway.

It's hard to get hire into ANY new career at 53, much less one that would
take a few years to build up enough experience to compete with people 20
years your junior.

[Simon Robbins]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
> It's hard to get hire into ANY new career at 53, much less one that would
> take a few years to build up enough experience to compete with people 20
> years your junior.

Having said that, I do know of one woman well into her fifties who is now
recently qualified and earning as a part-time helicopter instructor, but
it's not her primary source of income.

Si

[Matt Barrow]

"Simon Robbins" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> > It's hard to get hire into ANY new career at 53, much less one that
would
> > take a few years to build up enough experience to compete with people 20
> > years your junior.
>
> Having said that, I do know of one woman well into her fifties who is now
> recently qualified and earning as a part-time helicopter instructor, but
> it's not her primary source of income.

Odd that someone NEWLY QUALIFIED would manage to be an instructor.

[Beav]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Beav" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Simon Robbins" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > "Beav" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >
>> >> "I"? I thought this was for your friend? :-)) Anyway, the simple
>> >> answer
>> >> is
>> >> "Lots". Over here in the UK, we'd expect to pay around 15,000 GBP
> (around
>> > 30
>> >> grand US) just for starters.
>> >
>> > £15k will get you the PPL easily, but bear in mind he's asking about
>> > how
>> > much it would cost before he could start earning from it.
>>
>> Too right Si, which is why I added the "for starters" bit. At 53, it's
>> not
> a
>> "career path" I'd be lusting after anyway.
>
> It's hard to get hire into ANY new career at 53, much less one that would
> take a few years to build up enough experience to compete with people 20
> years your junior.

Agreed, but anyone who's not dipped his feet into aviation could be forgiven
for thinking that it's not a lot different for any other career. They soon
discover the costs are more than the likely rewards and that time really IS
an issue, so age is a barrier.

Those questions do make for a discussion though, and seeing as RAH has been
a bit "light on the skids" of late, that's a good thing:)

Beav

[Beav]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Simon Robbins" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > It's hard to get hire into ANY new career at 53, much less one that
> would
>> > take a few years to build up enough experience to compete with people
>> > 20
>> > years your junior.
>>
>> Having said that, I do know of one woman well into her fifties who is now
>> recently qualified and earning as a part-time helicopter instructor, but
>> it's not her primary source of income.
>
> Odd that someone NEWLY QUALIFIED would manage to be an instructor.

Maybe that's "Newly qualified as a CFI"?

A friend of mine had never set foot in anything "aerial" before his 40th,
but he learned to fly heli's after I'd taught him to fly RC heli's. He then
bought his own machine (R-22) and pretty soon after was instructing in the
south of England. Now he's got his own operation in Wales teaching heli
flying. I would estimate it took him less than 3 years before he opened up
his own "shop".

Mind you...... he wasn't exactly strapped for cash when he started and
earning a living wasn't high on his "must do today" list, which I'm sure
makes a BIG difference. It was still a great accomplishment though and he's
still a top bloke.

Beav

[Steve R.]

"Beav" > wrote in message
...
>
> Mind you...... he wasn't exactly strapped for cash when he started and
> earning a living wasn't high on his "must do today" list, which I'm sure
> makes a BIG difference. It was still a great accomplishment though and
> he's still a top bloke.
>
> Beav

Wow! If only all of us could be in "that" position! The "not exactly
strapped for cash" and "earning a living wasn't high on his 'must do today'
list" parts, that is!

I'm green! ;-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Beav]

"Steve R." > wrote in message
...
> "Beav" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Mind you...... he wasn't exactly strapped for cash when he started and
>> earning a living wasn't high on his "must do today" list, which I'm sure
>> makes a BIG difference. It was still a great accomplishment though and
>> he's still a top bloke.
>>
>> Beav
>
> Wow! If only all of us could be in "that" position! The "not exactly
> strapped for cash" and "earning a living wasn't high on his 'must do
> today' list" parts, that is!

What, you mean you're not? Pikey bugger you must be:)


--
Beav

[Simon Robbins]

"Beav" > wrote in message
...
> > Odd that someone NEWLY QUALIFIED would manage to be an instructor.
>
> Maybe that's "Newly qualified as a CFI"?

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I thought it went without saying.
Afterall

Si

[Beav]

"Simon Robbins" > wrote in message
...
> "Beav" > wrote in message
> ...
>> > Odd that someone NEWLY QUALIFIED would manage to be an instructor.
>>
>> Maybe that's "Newly qualified as a CFI"?
>
> Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I thought it went without saying.
> Afterall

Well no actually and it still doesn't, but maybe I'm a TC

Beav

[Simon Robbins]

"Beav" > wrote in message
...
>
> Well no actually and it still doesn't, but maybe I'm a TC

Perhaps I should have spelt it out fully, but to my mind being employed to
teach means being licenced to teach, and therefore CFI rated.

Si

[Steve R.]

"Simon Robbins" > wrote in message
...
> "Beav" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Well no actually and it still doesn't, but maybe I'm a TC
>
> Perhaps I should have spelt it out fully, but to my mind being employed to
> teach means being licenced to teach, and therefore CFI rated.
>
> Si
>

Unfortunately, that's not always the case. In my active years as a full
size fixed wing pilot, I ran into a couple of folks through the years that
were "teaching" friends how to fly the airplane but were not CFI certified.
For that matter, I could have taught someone to fly the airplane but it
would be a moot point for obvious reasons.

I remember talking to one "student" who was having a great time doing this
and he knew that his "instructor" wasn't a rated CFI. I asked him if he was
serious about earning his pilots license. He said, "yes." I asked him why
he flew with his friend because he couldn't legally log the hours toward his
flight rating. He said, "yeah, but it's still good experience." I told him
that if he's serious about getting the flight rating, it's still a waste of
money. He's still got to log that time under the supervision of a CFI. The
time he had didn't mean anything toward his flight rating and the money he
spent didn't either. He's not saving himself one penny as he'd still have
to re-fly those hours once he got with a real CFI. He either didn't
understand my point or didn't care. As best as I can recall, he never
earned his license either. The thing that scared me at the time was
wondering what kind of bad habits he was getting from a non rated
instructor?

FWIW
Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Matt Barrow]

"Simon Robbins" > wrote in message
...
> "Beav" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Well no actually and it still doesn't, but maybe I'm a TC
>
> Perhaps I should have spelt it out fully, but to my mind being employed to
> teach means being licenced to teach, and therefore CFI rated.
>
AIR, you said "employed" but didn't say employed "to teach".

[Simon Robbins]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
> AIR, you said "employed" but didn't say employed "to teach".

I said "recently qualified and earning as a part-time helicopter
instructor".

Si

[Matt Barrow]

"Simon Robbins" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> > AIR, you said "employed" but didn't say employed "to teach".
>
> I said "recently qualified and earning as a part-time helicopter
> instructor".
>
That's right...except your subject and verb don't match :~)

[Steve R.]

"Simon Robbins" > wrote in message
...
> "Beav" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Well no actually and it still doesn't, but maybe I'm a TC
>
> Perhaps I should have spelt it out fully, but to my mind being employed to
> teach means being licenced to teach, and therefore CFI rated.
>
> Si
>

That's how I read it, Si. :-)

With some folks, you can't make any assumptions on how they're going to
interpret things we put in print. The same tendency that had me, in this
case, reading into your post what you truly intended, has gotten me in
trouble in other conversations. You just can't take this stuff for granted!

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Matt Barrow]

"Steve R." > wrote in message
...
> "Simon Robbins" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Beav" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> Well no actually and it still doesn't, but maybe I'm a TC
> >
> > Perhaps I should have spelt it out fully, but to my mind being employed
to
> > teach means being licenced to teach, and therefore CFI rated.
> >
> > Si
> >
>
> That's how I read it, Si. :-)
>
> With some folks, you can't make any assumptions on how they're going to
> interpret things we put in print. The same tendency that had me, in this
> case, reading into your post what you truly intended, has gotten me in
> trouble in other conversations. You just can't take this stuff for
granted!
>
> Fly Safe,
> Steve R.
>
Given that the context was a newly LICENSED pilot, using a newly licensed
INSTRUCTOR was a leap.

That they were the same age (the point of Si's comment) isn't even slightly
relevant.

[Matt Barrow]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steve R." > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Simon Robbins" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Beav" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >>
> > >> Well no actually and it still doesn't, but maybe I'm a TC
> > >
> > > Perhaps I should have spelt it out fully, but to my mind being
employed
> to
> > > teach means being licenced to teach, and therefore CFI rated.
> > >
> > > Si
> > >
> >
> > That's how I read it, Si. :-)
> >
> > With some folks, you can't make any assumptions on how they're going to
> > interpret things we put in print. The same tendency that had me, in
this
> > case, reading into your post what you truly intended, has gotten me in
> > trouble in other conversations. You just can't take this stuff for
> granted!
> >
> > Fly Safe,
> > Steve R.
> >
> Given that the context was a newly LICENSED pilot, using a newly licensed
> INSTRUCTOR was a leap.

SB: INSTRUCTOR for comparison was a leap.
>
> That they were the same age (the point of Si's comment) isn't even
slightly
> relevant.

[Simon Robbins]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
> Given that the context was a newly LICENSED pilot, using a newly licensed
> INSTRUCTOR was a leap.

It's even cloudier than that. I checked the regs today. Lasors states that
even a PPL is allowed to instruct, just not receive payment. So, going back
to Steve R's post, you can legitimately log hours taught by a newly
qualified CPL or even PPL and they will count. The student just isn't
allowed to pay for it.

Si

[Steve R.]

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message ...
> On Wed, 18 May 2005 18:12:03 +0100, "Simon Robbins"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>>> Given that the context was a newly LICENSED pilot, using a newly
>>> licensed
>>> INSTRUCTOR was a leap.
>>
>>It's even cloudier than that. I checked the regs today. Lasors states that
>>even a PPL is allowed to instruct, just not receive payment. So, going
>>back
>>to Steve R's post, you can legitimately log hours taught by a newly
>>qualified CPL or even PPL and they will count. The student just isn't
>>allowed to pay for it.
>
> This begs another question or two then... Do those logged hours count
> towards the mins required for a license or do those hours required for
> dual in the regs HAVE to be with a CFI?
>
> Any particular age minimum before you can start logging time?? Just
> curious 'cuz my 11 year old daughter is spending the afternoon at work
> with me and she's in the demo helo sim terrorizing southern CA in a
> 206 right now. :)
>

It's been a long time since I earned my fixed wing ticket. Everything I was
taught back in 1979 said that the student had to fly with a rated CFI in
order to "log" those hours toward. Only a rated CFI could sign off a
student for solo work or x-country work, etc. So sooner or later, that
student is going to have to get with a CFI.

I know a lot of things have changed since I learned to fly in the late 70's
but I have a hard time believing that "this" change has been made. Si, even
when I was active flying, it was perfectly legal for me as a private pilot
to take you, as a non-rated individual, up and show you how to fly the
airplane. We could conceivably do this until you were completely
comfortable with take-off's, landings, turns, climbs, descents, and good
old, "straight and level." It would all be perfectly legal but the
non-rated person "would NOT" be able to log that time toward their ticket.
If you're right and in this day and time, they can?? !! :-O I'm glad I'm
not flying any more.

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Simon Robbins]

"Steve R." > wrote in message
...
> I know a lot of things have changed since I learned to fly in the late
70's
> but I have a hard time believing that "this" change has been made. Si,
even
> when I was active flying, it was perfectly legal for me as a private pilot
> to take you, as a non-rated individual, up and show you how to fly the
> airplane. We could conceivably do this until you were completely
> comfortable with take-off's, landings, turns, climbs, descents, and good
> old, "straight and level." It would all be perfectly legal but the
> non-rated person "would NOT" be able to log that time toward their ticket.
> If you're right and in this day and time, they can?? !! :-O I'm glad I'm
> not flying any more.

Could be that it's not changed.
Lasors states that a PPL can instruct, but elsewhere states that a CFI is
required in order to instruct towards the granting of a licence. So, it
could be that the hours can be logged (or not), but the 25(?) hours of dual
instruction required for the licence must be with a CFI. So presumably that
would allow a student to practice with a non-CFI between lessons, but still
doesn't answer whether the non-CFI hours can be logged.

Si