A&P Revocations!

[Capt.Doug]

Some years ago, an A&P designated examiner was convicted of fraud for
issuing mechanic's certificates without giving much of a test. He was
located in Sanford, Florida. Nearly 3000 certified letters were mailed out
last week to everyone who used this examiner from October 1995 to Aug 1998.
The letter states that everyone receiving a letter has 3 weeks to get ready
for a section 77409 recertification exam at a FSDO. The options provided for
those who can't take the test during the stated period are voluntary
surrender or emergency revocation.

Personally this sucks. There are plenty of legal issues still to be brought
up with the inspector general's office regarding the matter (Is all the work
that these mechanics signed off in the past 9 years now invalid?). I post
about it in case any affected persons may not have received their letter.

D.

[W P Dixon]

Hey Capt.
Yes we all had heard about the Sanford FL incident years ago, and every
mech I knew at the time had been told their A&P was subject to all the
things you mentioned. Actually I was of the understanding that those mechs
in question were all told at that time. At least that is what every mech I
knew at that time had said. Personally I never saw anything from the FAA ,
just A&P's around the country that knew they were going to have to retake
their A&P exams.

Patrick

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in message
...
> Some years ago, an A&P designated examiner was convicted of fraud for
> issuing mechanic's certificates without giving much of a test. He was
> located in Sanford, Florida. Nearly 3000 certified letters were mailed out
> last week to everyone who used this examiner from October 1995 to Aug
1998.
> The letter states that everyone receiving a letter has 3 weeks to get
ready
> for a section 77409 recertification exam at a FSDO. The options provided
for
> those who can't take the test during the stated period are voluntary
> surrender or emergency revocation.
>
> Personally this sucks. There are plenty of legal issues still to be
brought
> up with the inspector general's office regarding the matter (Is all the
work
> that these mechanics signed off in the past 9 years now invalid?). I post
> about it in case any affected persons may not have received their letter.
>
> D.
>
>

[Del Rawlins]

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 22:25:33 GMT, "Capt.Doug" >
wrote:

>Personally this sucks. There are plenty of legal issues still to be brought
>up with the inspector general's office regarding the matter (Is all the work
>that these mechanics signed off in the past 9 years now invalid?). I post
>about it in case any affected persons may not have received their letter.

As one who recently went through 2 years of school full time and a
good deal of personal expense to obtain my A&P certificate, please
excuse me if I fail to feel any sympathy for those mechanics. They
tried to skirt the system and get by on the cheap, and ended up
getting exactly what they paid for. The FAA, for all their faults,
was gracious in letting them re-test at all.

The people I feel sorry for are the aircraft owners who have the
signatures of said mechanics now gracing their logbooks, since as you
said, that calls into question the validity of any work they approved.


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[Steelgtr62]

If they can pass the test then they have no problem...and a crash school can
teach you to pass the test in two weeks.

A&P vocational education in the USA is an unmitigated joke. Many of these
schools are utterly useless , but they do certify you to test. Eighteen months
of attendance and in some cases tens of thousands of dollars for very little
learned skill is what I have seen.

They should get rid of the 18 month school or 30 month experience requirement
and let you test up front for a provisional license, on which an IA has to
inspect all jobs you do for the first three times you sign off that job. They
should also split up turbine and recip engines, and composite, sheetmetal, and
wood/tube/fabric structure into separate ratings. The full AMT rating should
only be given after you have worked on aircraft , and only for relevant work on
the appropriate type. Airline personnel are only annoyed by talk of Ceconite
and museum piece Lycomings.

Maybe some of the community college programs where you get an Associate degree
are not a scam but the commercial programs largely are. We interviewed two
people from one of the commercial schools in Virginia recently and I can tell
you that if I had my car oil changed at Jiffy Lube, if either one of them
worked there, I'd find another location!

[sidk]

(Del Rawlins) wrote in message >...

....sniped
>
> As one who recently went through 2 years of school full time and a
> good deal of personal expense to obtain my A&P certificate, please
> excuse me if I fail to feel any sympathy for those mechanics. They
> tried to skirt the system and get by on the cheap, and ended up
> getting exactly what they paid for.

Well, maybe...but...
I think it would be unfair and a mistake to assume all 3000 were
trying to "...skirt the system and get by on the cheap.." Many could
have been just as competant and prepared as you say you were but
simply got that particular DE by luck-of-the-draw.

Regards,
Sid Knox

[Cy Galley]

They could be A&P that went thru school just like you. Just the wrong
examiner that the FAA decided to bust for poor record keeping of the like.


> ...sniped
> >
> > As one who recently went through 2 years of school full time and a
> > good deal of personal expense to obtain my A&P certificate, please
> > excuse me if I fail to feel any sympathy for those mechanics. They
> > tried to skirt the system and get by on the cheap, and ended up
> > getting exactly what they paid for.
>
> Well, maybe...but...
> I think it would be unfair and a mistake to assume all 3000 were
> trying to "...skirt the system and get by on the cheap.." Many could
> have been just as competant and prepared as you say you were but
> simply got that particular DE by luck-of-the-draw.
>
> Regards,
> Sid Knox

[W P Dixon]

Alot of those guys and girls had been working on planes for 15 or 20 years
and took their A&P at the Sanford location because he was cheaper than
anyone else. If you think you know more than a mech that has worked on the
line for 15 or 20 years who doesn't yet have his A&P just because you went
to school....you have alot to learn.
At one time I even thought about trying to make it to that guys place
and taking it...because it was cheap. I have 20 plus years experience on
numerous types of aircraft ( fixed and rotor) and I have never needed an A&P
license to work. But always having a family to support it is difficult to
take off for a week of work and spend 1000 bucks doing it as well. So money
is a key factor to most people in the real world. I agree that those mechs
should have no problem with the retaking of the test..but everyone has to
admit it sux to have to do it again when you have already paid for it. I
doubt very much if they will get any money back from the place.
And I am sure their are some who took it there because it was a "gimme".
I had heard that through the grapevine as well in the industry...so I never
took it there for that reason. Usually if something seems funny....you can
count on it.
But to sum it up I have known thousands of A&P's through the years. Most
of them, especially the ones out of school know how to read a manual and set
a torque..a monkey can do that. Very few A&P's actually know how to do very
little to the "A" part of that license. I can tell you from years of
experience that A&P is a piece of paper , the real knowledge is what's in
his/her head and the ability to use one's hands in a talented way. I can
shoot the entire lap seam on the fuselage of a Gulfstream-V in an 8 hour
shift, I have also repaired a tailboom of a Cobra helo on the side of Mount
Etna in Sicily ( pilot landed on the remains of a tree stump!), WOW how did
I ever do that , I don't have that piece of paper!!!! Not to mention I
helped engineers write the Assembly Outline to build the spars of the C-17.
try to remember their are absolute idiots out there with A&P's just like
there are idots without them. A piece of paper does not a mech make!

Patrick
"Cy Galley" > wrote in message
news:IVbad.215910$MQ5.62609@attbi_s52...
> They could be A&P that went thru school just like you. Just the wrong
> examiner that the FAA decided to bust for poor record keeping of the like.
>
>
> > ...sniped
> > >
> > > As one who recently went through 2 years of school full time and a
> > > good deal of personal expense to obtain my A&P certificate, please
> > > excuse me if I fail to feel any sympathy for those mechanics. They
> > > tried to skirt the system and get by on the cheap, and ended up
> > > getting exactly what they paid for.
> >
> > Well, maybe...but...
> > I think it would be unfair and a mistake to assume all 3000 were
> > trying to "...skirt the system and get by on the cheap.." Many could
> > have been just as competant and prepared as you say you were but
> > simply got that particular DE by luck-of-the-draw.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Sid Knox
>
>

[Del Rawlins]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:35:58 -0400, "W P Dixon"
> wrote:

>try to remember their are absolute idiots out there with A&P's just like
>there are idots without them. A piece of paper does not a mech make!

That is totally true and to avoid getting into a long drawn out
argument, I do not think that I am somehow better because I have gone
to school than somebody who got theirs based on experience. I think
that I am a better mechanic than *I* would have otherwise been without
the school and that if you want to be exposed to as many different
aspects of aviation mechanics as possible in a short time that a good
school is the best way to accomplish that. I have nothing but the
utmost respect for anybody who got their A&P through experience.
Either way that you go, you still have to put in your time. I chose
school because it was the fastest way in my particular case and we
happen to have a good program in my area.

But I don't buy the fact that it was just luck of the draw that people
chose this guy for their testing and happened to get nailed by the
evil FAA (as accurate as that adjective may be). As you said, the
deal seemed fishy and people sought him out because he was the
cheapest (not that he didn't have every right to set whatever prices
he wanted) and had a reputation for being easy on the test. My
problem (and lack of sympathy for those guys) is based on the belief
that the bar should be set the same regardless of how you got your
experience and that those people who sought out a guy known for lower
test standards ended up getting exactly what they paid for.

This is no different than an aircraft owner who seeks out an IA known
for "paperwork" annual inspections. When they are both busted by the
FAA it is hard to feel sorry for either of them. The real victims are
the guy's passengers who think they are flying on an aircraft that has
been properly inspected.

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[Del Rawlins]

On 10 Oct 2004 00:56:15 GMT, (Steelgtr62) wrote:

>If they can pass the test then they have no problem...and a crash school can
>teach you to pass the test in two weeks.

I happen to agree with that and my mentioning of the fact that I have
been to school probably just distracts from the issue that most of the
people who tested with the DE in question sought him out for a reason;
they wanted an easy test. I mentioned school to make the point that
as somebody who didn't try to cut any corners I can't feel sorry for
those who did.

> A&P vocational education in the USA is an unmitigated joke. Many of these
>schools are utterly useless , but they do certify you to test. Eighteen months
>of attendance and in some cases tens of thousands of dollars for very little
>learned skill is what I have seen.

Well, all I can say to that is that like any other education, you get
out of it exactly what you put into it. If the ONLY objective is the
piece of paper from the feds that says you are a mechanic, you can sit
in class and do only what is necessary to score 70% on everything. My
approach was that if I had to sit there in order to get the stupid
piece of paper, then I was going to get the most out of my investment.
I asked a lot of questions and often took projects a lot farther than
was completely necessary, and my grades reflected that.

> They should get rid of the 18 month school or 30 month experience requirement
>and let you test up front for a provisional license, on which an IA has to
>inspect all jobs you do for the first three times you sign off that job.

I agree that if you have the skill and the knowledge, then the
government shouldn't have be able to make you do busy work to fulfill
some arbitrary experience requirement. I disagree on the need for a
provisional license, however. The existing A&P certificate is already
provisional enough in that you need an IA to approve any major repairs
or alterations. I don't need to get IA approval on knowing how to
pack wheel bearings or time a mag once I have passed the tests that
prove I have a basic level of mechanical knowledge and understand how
to read a manual. Regardless of any of that, whatever the system is
the bar should be the same for everybody getting their certificate
which is why all those people had to re-test.

>They
>should also split up turbine and recip engines, and composite, sheetmetal, and
>wood/tube/fabric structure into separate ratings. The full AMT rating should
>only be given after you have worked on aircraft , and only for relevant work on
>the appropriate type. Airline personnel are only annoyed by talk of Ceconite
>and museum piece Lycomings.

They tried that, and it received the most negative comments of any
NPRM in FAA history if I was told correctly. Regardless of your
opinion of rag and tube or old engines, some of us do like them.
Personally my eyes start to gloss over when people are talking about
the air conditioning or blue water systems on a modern jetliner. And
it is silly that some of that stuff is taught in A&P school, because
under the regs most airline mechanics are not required to hold an A&P
(although the airlines like to use that as an employment screening
tool).

> Maybe some of the community college programs where you get an Associate degree
>are not a scam but the commercial programs largely are. We interviewed two
>people from one of the commercial schools in Virginia recently and I can tell
>you that if I had my car oil changed at Jiffy Lube, if either one of them
>worked there, I'd find another location!

Well, you are going to find idiots in any occupation. I know because
I had some of those people as classmates, whether it was in management
classes for my business degree or in fuel systems class getting my
A&P. And they now have the same supposed qualifications as I do.


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[Del Rawlins]

On 10 Oct 2004 07:38:26 -0700, (sidk) wrote:

(Del Rawlins) wrote in message >...
>
>...sniped
>>
>> As one who recently went through 2 years of school full time and a
>> good deal of personal expense to obtain my A&P certificate, please
>> excuse me if I fail to feel any sympathy for those mechanics. They
>> tried to skirt the system and get by on the cheap, and ended up
>> getting exactly what they paid for.
>
>Well, maybe...but...
>I think it would be unfair and a mistake to assume all 3000 were
>trying to "...skirt the system and get by on the cheap.." Many could
>have been just as competant and prepared as you say you were but
>simply got that particular DE by luck-of-the-draw.

You are probably right there. There may have been guys who didn't
know and who were genuinely surprised at the test they were given.
For all I know that may be how the guy got busted. Either way though,
I think it is safe to say that most people sought him out specifically
because word had gotten around that he was the guy to go to for a
quick and easy examination. I may be totally off base (it has
happened before) but I feel that in any business that you will attract
the sort of clientele that you cater to, and that as a customer you
generally get what you pay for.

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[Frank Hitlaw]

(Del Rawlins) wrote in message >...
> On 10 Oct 2004 07:38:26 -0700, (sidk) wrote:
>
> (Del Rawlins) wrote in message >...
> >
> >...sniped
>
>
> You are probably right there. There may have been guys who didn't
> know and who were genuinely surprised at the test they were given.
> For all I know that may be how the guy got busted. Either way though,
> I think it is safe to say that most people sought him out specifically
> because word had gotten around that he was the guy to go to for a
> quick and easy examination. I may be totally off base (it has
> happened before) but I feel that in any business that you will attract
> the sort of clientele that you cater to, and that as a customer you
> generally get what you pay for.
>
> ================================================== ==
> Del Rawlins--
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply


Del,

I lived in Florida during the time this guy was operating. It wasn't
just a matter of poor record keeping that caused his problem. It was
that he was a fraud, and it was well known. I had wondered why the
feds hadn't nailed him earlier. I know several from Miami that went to
Stanford for their test and every one passed.This included some that
worked for me at a Commuter. He wasn't cheap he charged $1000 for the
test and guarenteed you would pass. He had the computer set-up for
the written test you would go in and take the test and not lock it in
as normal when you finished. Tony would then have you leave the room
and he would adjust your answers so that you passed. I was told this
by two persons that took the test. After the written phase he would
take you around the hangar and for your oral and practical asking you
such questions as whats that? Pointing to a component on a plane like
an aileron or a elevator. In a matter of minutes you would be on your
way with a new A&P in your pocket.
One time a whole class from Broward Comunity College went there for
their test. A DME is only allowed to give two test a day. All passed
that one day but their licenses were dated to reflect that only two
were issued each day. OK you first two yours are today the next two
yours are tomorrow and so on.
I spent about 4 hours going over oral questions one evening with two
persons whos names I will not publish here. In the four hours I spent
asking questions right out of the A&P oral guide. They totaled maybe
three correct and that was giving them the benefit of doubt. I told
them that they needed to sharpen up before the test and they told me
not to worry. Two days later they came to work with their new A&Ps
from Stanford. Their job status didn't change they stayed as mechanics
helpers. They finally figured that I wouldn't promote them they got
P.O.'d and left.
More than likely a good portion of these folks could have passed
their test from anyone and got caught up in this mess. For them I feel
sorta sorry because they are out a grand in money and really didn't
get anything for it other than some grief.
Like any endeavor you get out of it what you put into it,an A&P
school is no different. The protectors are supposed to be the DMEs,
they are the line of defense that weeds out the ones that don't have
the basic skills.This particular one was in it for the money and he
got what he deserved a big fine. I think it was like $275,000 and many
years in a federal pen.

Frank M.Hitlaw

[Barnyard BOb -]

>as a customer you
>generally get what you pay for.
>
>Del Rawlins--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not with the odds that exist in my world, Del. <g>

CAVEAT EMPTOR is more than just a couple
of trite words strung together for ****s and grins.

May I be so bold as to postulate that...
you GENERALLY get LESS than what you pay for
unless you get lucky, OR... are informed and
know what the hell you're doing in this profit driven
capitalistic society.


Barnyard Bob - living a life of gen-u-wine bargains

[Malcolm Teas]

(Steelgtr62) wrote in message >...
> ... Maybe some of the community college programs where you get an Associate degree
> are not a scam but the commercial programs largely are. We interviewed two
> people from one of the commercial schools in Virginia recently and I can tell
> you that if I had my car oil changed at Jiffy Lube, if either one of them
> worked there, I'd find another location!

So, what A&P schools are good? Where would you send someone wanting A&P training?

-Malcolm Teas

[Capt.Doug]

>"Del Rawlins" wrote in message > There may have been guys who didn't
> know and who were genuinely surprised at the test they were given.
> For all I know that may be how the guy got busted. Either way though,
> I think it is safe to say that most people sought him out specifically
> because word had gotten around that he was the guy to go to for a
> quick and easy examination.

That is how the investigation started, but consider this- Everyone who has
received a letter for re-testing has had their certificate for a minimum of
6 years and many have had it for 9 full years. They may have gone there for
the quick or for the easy, but if they truly did not know the trade, the
industry would have weeded them out. The ones who weren't weeded out can
likely pass the re-test, but why should they have to? Could you retake your
college finals and pass tomorrow? What if the re-test is to recover a
control surface? I haven't done that since high school (and still have the
brain damage from inhaling the fumes). As someone else pointed out, most of
these mechanics work full time. The re-test must be administered by the FAA,
not a DE (sec.44709). Most of the time, a re-test can be scheduled at the
FSDO of choice and at a time which is convenient to all. In this case, if
one doesn't go when and were the letter states, one's certificate is
revoked. The FAA is doing the bidding of the Inspector General (who isn't
FAA). It's pure politicking and it sucks.

D.

[Del Rawlins]

On 11 Oct 2004 08:24:05 -0700, (Malcolm Teas) wrote:

(Steelgtr62) wrote in message >...
>> ... Maybe some of the community college programs where you get an Associate degree
>> are not a scam but the commercial programs largely are. We interviewed two
>> people from one of the commercial schools in Virginia recently and I can tell
>> you that if I had my car oil changed at Jiffy Lube, if either one of them
>> worked there, I'd find another location!
>
>So, what A&P schools are good? Where would you send someone wanting A&P training?

Well, the UAA program in Anchorage is good but SLOW. Even taking
overload credits like I did (I had 26 credits one semester) the
fastest you can do it there is 4 semesters, and they don't offer
summer courses which flat out sucks. The upside is that if you make
it through the program, you WILL have a decent understanding of
electricity/electronics, and will be nearly ready to take the FCC GROL
exam (which I am currently studying for, though I need to kick it in
gear on that). The program in Fairbanks is about as fast as they
come; it only takes one year full time but they don't go into nearly
as much detail on a lot of stuff, and it is in %$$%( Fairbanks of
course. I have a friend who went there and one who is currently there
but from what I have been told about the only thing it really has
going for it is the getting it done faster. I don't have any
knowledge of programs in the lower 48.


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[Frank Hitlaw]

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in message >...
> >"Del Rawlins" wrote in message > There may have been guys who didn't
> > know and who were genuinely surprised at the test they were given.
> > For all I know that may be how the guy got busted. Either way though,
> > I think it is safe to say that most people sought him out specifically
> > because word had gotten around that he was the guy to go to for a
> > quick and easy examination.
>
> That is how the investigation started, but consider this- Everyone who has
> received a letter for re-testing has had their certificate for a minimum of
> 6 years and many have had it for 9 full years. They may have gone there for
> the quick or for the easy, but if they truly did not know the trade, the
> industry would have weeded them out. The ones who weren't weeded out can
> likely pass the re-test, but why should they have to? Could you retake your
> college finals and pass tomorrow? What if the re-test is to recover a
> control surface? I haven't done that since high school (and still have the
> brain damage from inhaling the fumes). As someone else pointed out, most of
> these mechanics work full time. The re-test must be administered by the FAA,
> not a DE (sec.44709). Most of the time, a re-test can be scheduled at the
> FSDO of choice and at a time which is convenient to all. In this case, if
> one doesn't go when and were the letter states, one's certificate is
> revoked. The FAA is doing the bidding of the Inspector General (who isn't
> FAA). It's pure politicking and it sucks.
>
> D.

It was pretty well documented when this thing first broke several
years ago that everyone that had tested with this guy would have to
retest. If I had been in this group I would have made some
preparations to cover myself. I think going on the offense immediately
would have been the best course of action. But, anyone who only thinks
of skating by would probably wait for a situation like this to happen.
In terms of the industry weeding the dead wood out I don't see
that happening. They just make the rounds from one place to another.
In Miami there are literally hundreds that should be wearing a paper
hat and asking if you want frys with your happy meal.

Frank Hitlaw

[Capt.Doug]

>"Frank Hitlaw" wrote in message
> It was pretty well documented when this thing first broke several
> years ago that everyone that had tested with this guy would have to
> retest.

At that time the FAA said those who tested during the investigation would
have to retest (about a year's worth). Now they are saying everone will
retest. They have no proof that fraud was committed before the investigation
began, but they don't need any reason what-so-ever to demand a 77409.

> In terms of the industry weeding the dead wood out I don't see
> that happening. They just make the rounds from one place to another.
> In Miami there are literally hundreds that should be wearing a paper
> hat and asking if you want frys with your happy meal.

It isn't just Miami- I had a newly licensed A&P wipe his thumb in an unknown
liquid on the asphalt ramp under an MD-80 and tell me it wasn't Skydrol
because it didn't burn his skin. I insisted it was. He insisted I didn't
know s**T because I wasn't an A&P. I grounded the airplane anyway. Then his
boss told him to replace a punctured hydraulic line in the horizontal stab.

D. (A&P)

[John Ammeter]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 04:22:39 GMT,
(Del Rawlins) wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:28:41 GMT, "Capt.Doug" >
>wrote:
>
>>It isn't just Miami- I had a newly licensed A&P wipe his thumb in an unknown
>>liquid on the asphalt ramp under an MD-80 and tell me it wasn't Skydrol
>>because it didn't burn his skin. I insisted it was. He insisted I didn't
>>know s**T because I wasn't an A&P. I grounded the airplane anyway. Then his
>>boss told him to replace a punctured hydraulic line in the horizontal stab.
>>
>>D. (A&P)
>
>That's an interesting topic to bring up because it seems like
>everybody in aviation has a story about a new, know-it-all A&P who
>turned out to not know ****. And while I have no doubt that the
>reputation has been justly earned over the years, as a recent licensee
>it is kind of frustrating to have people just assume that because you
>haven't had your certificate long that you are automatically a
>dumbass. It isn't a huge problem for me because I have about 10 years
>on most of the guys finishing school but it is an attitude that is
>definitely out there. Being aware of this, I try very hard not to
>project the "know it all" attitude which is sometimes a fine line to
>walk because I do know a *few* things about airplanes and I need to be
>able to get that across too. And the same can be said for a lot of
>industries but in aviation it is more like a religious principle.
>
>
>================================================== ==
>Del Rawlins--
>Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
>http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
>Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply


It's really hard being the FNG but, given time, folks will
learn you DO know what you're talking about...

John

[Del Rawlins]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:28:41 GMT, "Capt.Doug" >
wrote:

>It isn't just Miami- I had a newly licensed A&P wipe his thumb in an unknown
>liquid on the asphalt ramp under an MD-80 and tell me it wasn't Skydrol
>because it didn't burn his skin. I insisted it was. He insisted I didn't
>know s**T because I wasn't an A&P. I grounded the airplane anyway. Then his
>boss told him to replace a punctured hydraulic line in the horizontal stab.
>
>D. (A&P)

That's an interesting topic to bring up because it seems like
everybody in aviation has a story about a new, know-it-all A&P who
turned out to not know ****. And while I have no doubt that the
reputation has been justly earned over the years, as a recent licensee
it is kind of frustrating to have people just assume that because you
haven't had your certificate long that you are automatically a
dumbass. It isn't a huge problem for me because I have about 10 years
on most of the guys finishing school but it is an attitude that is
definitely out there. Being aware of this, I try very hard not to
project the "know it all" attitude which is sometimes a fine line to
walk because I do know a *few* things about airplanes and I need to be
able to get that across too. And the same can be said for a lot of
industries but in aviation it is more like a religious principle.


================================================== ==
Del Rawlins--
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply

[Frank Hitlaw]

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in message >...
> >"Frank Hitlaw" wrote in message
> > It was pretty well documented when this thing first broke several
> > years ago that everyone that had tested with this guy would have to
> > retest.
>
> At that time the FAA said those who tested during the investigation would
> have to retest (about a year's worth). Now they are saying everone will
> retest. They have no proof that fraud was committed before the investigation
> began, but they don't need any reason what-so-ever to demand a 77409.
>
> > In terms of the industry weeding the dead wood out I don't see
> > that happening. They just make the rounds from one place to another.
> > In Miami there are literally hundreds that should be wearing a paper
> > hat and asking if you want frys with your happy meal.
>
> It isn't just Miami- I had a newly licensed A&P wipe his thumb in an unknown
> liquid on the asphalt ramp under an MD-80 and tell me it wasn't Skydrol
> because it didn't burn his skin. I insisted it was. He insisted I didn't
> know s**T because I wasn't an A&P. I grounded the airplane anyway. Then his
> boss told him to replace a punctured hydraulic line in the horizontal stab.
>
> D. (A&P)


Amen,you are preaching to choir.When I went to work at the commuter
in Miami within a month I fired most of the mechanics. They were
totally incompetent and several of these had many years at Eastern and
Pan Am.I was helping with an inspection one night and picked up a work
card that required the cabin floor to be opened. I was told why are
you doing that? I said because it is supposed to be done, his answer
was well we never do that because there isn't anything under there. I
opened the panels and proceeded to enlighten him on what was under
there. Just a few minor things like control cables,he didn't last
long.
The two people that I mentioned in the first post were "tested" in
early 95, the Broward Community College group was in 96 or 97. Maybe
the feds didn't have proof prior to their investigation. But it was
widely known that there was something fishy going on up there long
before Tony was arrested.As I said I was surprised that it took so
long for the feds to catch on.Then it wasn't the FAA it was the FBI
that took him down. Think about it at a grand a pop this guy made 3
million in just that period of time.
I am indignant because he polluted a profession of which I am very
passionate.

Frank M.Hitlaw
Jakarta

[Barnyard BOb -]

>I try very hard not to
>project the "know it all" attitude which is sometimes a fine line to
>walk because I do know a *few* things about airplanes and I need to be
>able to get that across too. And the same can be said for a lot of
>industries but in aviation it is more like a religious principle.
>
>
>Del Rawlins--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Aviation hardly stands alone as a religious parallel.
POLITICS, as a religion, beats aviation hands down.

Look no further than right here in r.a.h. to
observe the god fearing? "know it alls"in action....
especially, the pontifications of the Radical Right.


Barnyard BOb --
The more people I meet,
the more I love my dog
and George Carlin humor.

[Leon McAtee]

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message >...
> Alot of those guys and girls had been working on planes for 15 or 20 years
> and took their A&P at the Sanford location because he was cheaper than
> anyone else. If you think you know more than a mech that has worked on the
> line for 15 or 20 years who doesn't yet have his A&P just because you went
> to school....you have alot to learn.
> At one time I even thought about trying to make it to that guys place
> and taking it...because it was cheap. I have 20 plus years experience on
> numerous types of aircraft ( fixed and rotor) and I have never needed an A&P
> license to work. But always having a family to support it is difficult to
> take off for a week of work and spend 1000 bucks doing it as well. So money
> is a key factor to most people in the real world.

I'm in kind of the situation described. I've been at this off and on
for 20 or so years but always earned my living doing something else.
Time has now come where I think I need the piece of paper that says I
am an A+P so I don't have to keep getting friendly I/A's to sign off
my work. I'll be getting a couple of weeks off this winter and had
planned to go to one of these quick A+P schools. Now this pops up so
my question:

Can/would anyone make a few suggestions about which one of the "one
week wonder schools" actually does a proper job of testing? Any
places like the one described to avoid?

If I'm not up to the task I need to know that, so I don't want a
rubber stamp operation, and I also don't want to have to go through
the whole thing again a few years down the line. After all finding
the time is the hard part to begin with.......
===========================
Leon McAtee
Checking all the web sites from TAP for A+P testing

[Capt.Doug]

>"Del Rawlins" wrote in message > as a recent licensee
> it is kind of frustrating to have people just assume that because you
> haven't had your certificate long that you are automatically a
> dumbass.

It goes both ways, and not just with new A&Ps. I get indignant when an A&P,
new or old, casually dismisses my findings because I'm in a pilot uniform.

D.

[Frank Hitlaw]

(Del Rawlins) wrote in message >...
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:28:41 GMT, "Capt.Doug" >
> wrote:
>
> >It isn't just Miami- I had a newly licensed A&P wipe his thumb in an unknown
> >liquid on the asphalt ramp under an MD-80 and tell me it wasn't Skydrol
> >because it didn't burn his skin. I insisted it was. He insisted I didn't
> >know s**T because I wasn't an A&P. I grounded the airplane anyway. Then his
> >boss told him to replace a punctured hydraulic line in the horizontal stab.
> >
> >D. (A&P)
>
> That's an interesting topic to bring up because it seems like
> everybody in aviation has a story about a new, know-it-all A&P who
> turned out to not know ****. And while I have no doubt that the
> reputation has been justly earned over the years, as a recent licensee
> it is kind of frustrating to have people just assume that because you
> haven't had your certificate long that you are automatically a
> dumbass. It isn't a huge problem for me because I have about 10 years
> on most of the guys finishing school but it is an attitude that is
> definitely out there. Being aware of this, I try very hard not to
> project the "know it all" attitude which is sometimes a fine line to
> walk because I do know a *few* things about airplanes and I need to be
> able to get that across too. And the same can be said for a lot of
> industries but in aviation it is more like a religious principle.
>
>
> ================================================== ==
> Del Rawlins--
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply


Del;

Two things first, treat the pilots as your customers and act like a
professional.You probably wouldn't call a paying customer that comes
into your shop a moron (even if he is). You will be surprised how it
works, generally you will be treated the same. Occaisionally you will
run into a crewmember that is a complete butthole but I found that to
be rare.I think for every stupid pilot trick I have seen an equally
stupid mechanic trick.Second,a long resume is not an antidote for
stupidity or plain incompetence.I have worked with some really good
guys from airlines such as Eastern or PAA. On the other hand there
were some that I had working for me that I couldn't get rid of fast
enough.

Frank M Hitlaw
Jakarta

[Del Rawlins]

On 18 Oct 2004 08:17:19 -0700, (Frank Hitlaw)
wrote:

> Two things first, treat the pilots as your customers and act like a
>professional.You probably wouldn't call a paying customer that comes
>into your shop a moron (even if he is).

That's a fact. Besides, if I want to heap abuse on a pilot for his
non-mechanicness, that is what my brother (airplane owner) is for.
8^)

================================================== ==
Del Rawlins--
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply