Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

[Chris Behm]

I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel)..
But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.

Thanks.

Regards,
"Target"

[MNLou]

A truck makes it a bunch easier to use the 4WD to get out of a soft field.

Lou

[George Haeh]

Subaru Foresters work fine pulling single seaters in good trailers with brakes. A high draggy home made trailer without brakes might not work as well.

Two seaters generally call for a truck. I wrote off a Subie in a jackknife pulling a Puchaz.

The usual glider shopping advice is to buy a good trailer. You will learn why when derigging in the dark in a field.

[2G]

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
> I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
> But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
> "Target"

The advantage of a truck is its ability to haul a lot of gear in the bed and its utility when not flying. You can also put a camper on a pickup and be self-contained at remote airfields (if you get a 3/4 ton pickup). Definitely get a 4WD model. I put a tall Snugtop canopy cover on my F250 crewcab and love its versatility.

Tom

[Marton KSz]

Trucks with big engines will always be a better choice if towing capability is the only consideration. Car only comes into the picture as a possibility when someone wants a vehicle that is otherwise small and efficient when not being used for glider towing.

[Dan Marotta]

I've used, in order, a 1973 Datsun 240Z, a 1983 Nissan Maxima, a 1988
Ford F-150 4WD truck, a 2010 Subaru Outback, a 2011 Ford Edge front
wheel drive, and a Mercedes based Class C motor home to tow gliders.

The F-150 was the best, followed by the Outback, both of which were
daily drivers, otherwise.Â* The Maxima and 240Z were stopgaps when the
need arose.

You will find that towing your glider around in a trailer is not
something you'll do often enough to base your vehicle preference on
that.Â* Consider one or trips per year plus the odd landout.Â* I'd base my
vehicle choice on what I use it for most often.

Cheers!

On 10/27/2020 11:02 AM, Marton KSz wrote:
> Trucks with big engines will always be a better choice if towing capability is the only consideration. Car only comes into the picture as a possibility when someone wants a vehicle that is otherwise small and efficient when not being used for glider towing.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
> I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
> But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
> "Target"

I tow with a 1997 F150 and a Lexus RX300 SUV which is AWD and has a tow package. They both do a pretty good job towing my single seat glider in a Komet trailer. I prefer the Lexus as it drives nicer and you can haul the guys to dinner when out on an encampment. There’s plenty of room in the back with the seats folded down for equipment.

I would recommend 4WD/AWD pickup or mid size SUV. Make sure it comes with a tow package in either case.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 2:23:41 PM UTC-4, Chris Behm wrote:
> I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage?

Weight and wheelbase are your friends. These are the criteria for better towing regardless of vehicle type.

[[email protected]]

> > I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage?

Uhh- How about EVERY TIME you are towing a glider trailer?

[Jonathon May]

At 13:44 28 October 2020, wrote:
>
>> > I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer
might be
>an advantage?
>
>Uhh- How about EVERY TIME you are towing a glider trailer?
>
>
The only problem I have had towing was with a Land Rover
discovery ,my daughter jack-knifed it with a DG500 behind.

I think the hard tyres and springs bounced it into trouble.

I now tow with a Mercedes C class estate car and think the softer
ride helps.

Sorry in the British makes don't make sense in the USA.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 10/28/2020 6:44 AM:
>
>>> I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage?
>
> Uhh- How about EVERY TIME you are towing a glider trailer?
>
The OP did not provide a "mission profile", so we are just guessing at what's suitable for him.
For me, I much prefer my Sienna mini-van to go to the airport than any of the trucks I've
owned. It's only 4 miles, doesn't jar the trailer as much going over the railroad tracks, and
it's easier to get things out of the back of it (wing dolly, etc). For long trips, a pickup
with a camper on it works well, and the camper can be removed when I get to the glider event.
Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips. A person that prefers motels or tents
will make very different choices, but which may not based on the towing function. For example,
some pilots choose the tow vehicle preferred by their crew - my case :^)

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[AS]

> Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips. <

Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.

Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

> Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch.

A few years ago, there were some Cobra tongue (drawbar) failures behind long-overhang RVs. The instances involved the older round tube drawbars vs. the newer square tube versions. I recently converted my 1981 Cobra round tube drawbar to the square tube design. The wall thickness and surface area of the square tube is much larger than the round-tube. Plus, the new drawbar has the gas spring operated emergency/parking brake lever vs. the "ratcheting" handle lock mechanism.

Not a difficult conversion, but I had to modify the brackets that hold the tube on the trailer floor for clearance and hole spacing requirements.

[2G]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips. <
>
> Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
> Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
> Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however). Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.

Tom

[AS]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:39:38 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > > Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips. <
> >
> > Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
> > Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
> > Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
>
> I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however). Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.
>
> Tom

Interesting! So because you have never heard of if means it hadn't happen? You keep a running log of every accident involving a class C camper towing a trailer worldwide ever since class C campers or similarly sized vehicles were equipped with trailer hitches? ;-)
Also, please reread my comment - 'can' being the operative word to look for.. My assertion is based on simple physics. A top-view free body diagram should make it clear why a longer lever arm between the tow hitch and the rear axle is a disadvantage when the trailer and towing vehicle is not in line during hard braking.

Uli
'AS'

[AS]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:02:00 PM UTC-4, AS wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:39:38 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > > > Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips. <
> > >
> > > Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
> > > Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
> > > Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.
> > >
> > > Uli
> > > 'AS'
> >
> > I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however). Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Interesting! So because you have never heard of if means it hadn't happen? You keep a running log of every accident involving a class C camper towing a trailer worldwide ever since class C campers or similarly sized vehicles were equipped with trailer hitches? ;-)
> Also, please reread my comment - 'can' being the operative word to look for. My assertion is based on simple physics. A top-view free body diagram should make it clear why a longer lever arm between the tow hitch and the rear axle is a disadvantage when the trailer and towing vehicle is not in line during hard braking.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

Oops - forgot to mention: I used to own a class C motorhome and I towed a brakeless trailer with it. The motorhome was based on a 1977 Dodge B-Van, so no ABS or any other electronic assistance on this blue shag-carpeted puppy.. I ended up almost jack-knifing on my way to Caesar Creek when traffic ahead came to a sudden stop in a rain storm and I tried to change lanes. Fortunately, there was nobody next to me but seeing the trailer in it's full glory in the outside mirrors was not fun.

Uli
'AS'

[2G]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 7:02:00 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:39:38 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > > > Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips. <
> > >
> > > Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
> > > Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
> > > Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.
> > >
> > > Uli
> > > 'AS'
> >
> > I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however). Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Interesting! So because you have never heard of if means it hadn't happen? You keep a running log of every accident involving a class C camper towing a trailer worldwide ever since class C campers or similarly sized vehicles were equipped with trailer hitches? ;-)
> Also, please reread my comment - 'can' being the operative word to look for. My assertion is based on simple physics. A top-view free body diagram should make it clear why a longer lever arm between the tow hitch and the rear axle is a disadvantage when the trailer and towing vehicle is not in line during hard braking.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

It means EXACTLY what I said: I have never heard of it. It sounds like YOU have never heard of it, either.

Tom

[AS]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 11:25:07 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 7:02:00 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:39:38 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > > > > Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips. <
> > > >
> > > > Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
> > > > Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
> > > > Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.
> > > >
> > > > Uli
> > > > 'AS'
> > >
> > > I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however). Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > Interesting! So because you have never heard of if means it hadn't happen? You keep a running log of every accident involving a class C camper towing a trailer worldwide ever since class C campers or similarly sized vehicles were equipped with trailer hitches? ;-)
> > Also, please reread my comment - 'can' being the operative word to look for. My assertion is based on simple physics. A top-view free body diagram should make it clear why a longer lever arm between the tow hitch and the rear axle is a disadvantage when the trailer and towing vehicle is not in line during hard braking.
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
>
> It means EXACTLY what I said: I have never heard of it. It sounds like YOU have never heard of it, either.
>
> Tom

>> It sounds like YOU have never heard of it, either. <<
Only experiences an almost jack-knifing (see my follow-up post), so I know first hand that it can happen. It made me rethink this whole 'trailer w/o brake' thing.

Uli
'AS'

[2G]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:38:30 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 11:25:07 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 7:02:00 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:39:38 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > > > > > Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips. <
> > > > >
> > > > > Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
> > > > > Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
> > > > > Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.
> > > > >
> > > > > Uli
> > > > > 'AS'
> > > >
> > > > I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however). Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > >
> > > Interesting! So because you have never heard of if means it hadn't happen? You keep a running log of every accident involving a class C camper towing a trailer worldwide ever since class C campers or similarly sized vehicles were equipped with trailer hitches? ;-)
> > > Also, please reread my comment - 'can' being the operative word to look for. My assertion is based on simple physics. A top-view free body diagram should make it clear why a longer lever arm between the tow hitch and the rear axle is a disadvantage when the trailer and towing vehicle is not in line during hard braking.
> > >
> > > Uli
> > > 'AS'
> >
> > It means EXACTLY what I said: I have never heard of it. It sounds like YOU have never heard of it, either.
> >
> > Tom
>
> >> It sounds like YOU have never heard of it, either. <<
> Only experiences an almost jack-knifing (see my follow-up post), so I know first hand that it can happen. It made me rethink this whole 'trailer w/o brake' thing.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

So, you don't know of any Class C jack-knifing.

Tom

[2G]

On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 6:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
> > I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
> > But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Regards,
> > "Target"
>
> I tow with a 1997 F150 and a Lexus RX300 SUV which is AWD and has a tow package. They both do a pretty good job towing my single seat glider in a Komet trailer. I prefer the Lexus as it drives nicer and you can haul the guys to dinner when out on an encampment. There’s plenty of room in the back with the seats folded down for equipment.
>
> I would recommend 4WD/AWD pickup or mid size SUV. Make sure it comes with a tow package in either case.

AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.

Tom

[[email protected]]

> AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.

I'm sure that's true for some AWD vehicles, but it is not true for either Subarus or Audis - both of which I have owned. Both tend to bias power to the front in slightly different ratios, but have some power going to all wheels by default.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 4:09:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.
> I'm sure that's true for some AWD vehicles, but it is not true for either Subarus or Audis - both of which I have owned. Both tend to bias power to the front in slightly different ratios, but have some power going to all wheels by default.

Actually, it is true of no vehicles. Those that don’t have permanent AWD systems (such as Quattro, Symmetrical, or Halda) use viscous couplers to transfer drive to the REAR wheels when the fronts lose grip, not the other way around.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:30:16 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 6:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
> > > I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
> > > But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > "Target"
> >
> > I tow with a 1997 F150 and a Lexus RX300 SUV which is AWD and has a tow package. They both do a pretty good job towing my single seat glider in a Komet trailer. I prefer the Lexus as it drives nicer and you can haul the guys to dinner when out on an encampment. There’s plenty of room in the back with the seats folded down for equipment.
> >
> > I would recommend 4WD/AWD pickup or mid size SUV. Make sure it comes with a tow package in either case.
> AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.
>
> Tom
I was thinking about when you need to get in that muddy pasture or farmers field. I typically drive my F150 in 2WD. No control issues at all.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

AS wrote on 10/28/2020 7:09 PM:
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:02:00 PM UTC-4, AS wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:39:38 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
>>>>> Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips. <
>>>>
>>>> Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
>>>> Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
>>>> Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.
>>>>
>>>> Uli
>>>> 'AS'
>>>
>>> I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however). Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>
>> Interesting! So because you have never heard of if means it hadn't happen? You keep a running log of every accident involving a class C camper towing a trailer worldwide ever since class C campers or similarly sized vehicles were equipped with trailer hitches? ;-)
>> Also, please reread my comment - 'can' being the operative word to look for. My assertion is based on simple physics. A top-view free body diagram should make it clear why a longer lever arm between the tow hitch and the rear axle is a disadvantage when the trailer and towing vehicle is not in line during hard braking.
>>
>> Uli
>> 'AS'
>
> Oops - forgot to mention: I used to own a class C motorhome and I towed a brakeless trailer with it. The motorhome was based on a 1977 Dodge B-Van, so no ABS or any other electronic assistance on this blue shag-carpeted puppy.. I ended up almost jack-knifing on my way to Caesar Creek when traffic ahead came to a sudden stop in a rain storm and I tried to change lanes. Fortunately, there was nobody next to me but seeing the trailer in it's full glory in the outside mirrors was not fun.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'
I chose my Class C motorhome in big part because it has the longest wheelbase (and shortest
overhang) in it's size (24'), but primarily for stability in strong winds, trucks passing, and
to reduce the amount of scraping on the hitch entering/exiting driveways and gas stations. It
would never jackknife on good surfaces, but I can see the problem with slippery conditions -
rain, snow, gravel, etc, even with brakes.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 10/28/2020 10:30 PM:
> On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 6:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
>>> I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
>>> But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> "Target"
>>
>> I tow with a 1997 F150 and a Lexus RX300 SUV which is AWD and has a tow package. They both do a pretty good job towing my single seat glider in a Komet trailer. I prefer the Lexus as it drives nicer and you can haul the guys to dinner when out on an encampment. There’s plenty of room in the back with the seats folded down for equipment.
>>
>> I would recommend 4WD/AWD pickup or mid size SUV. Make sure it comes with a tow package in either case.
>
> AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.
>
There is part-time AWD, which you described, and full-time AWD, which delivers the power to all
the wheels as needed - no waiting for traction be lost. Most pilots will never need the
off-road advantages of 4WD for retrieving, so might be better served with AWD, or even 2WD,
giving them a much wider choice of vehicles.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[AS]

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:26:24 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:38:30 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 11:25:07 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 7:02:00 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:39:38 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > > > > > > Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips. <
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
> > > > > > Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
> > > > > > Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Uli
> > > > > > 'AS'
> > > > >
> > > > > I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however). Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom
> > > >
> > > > Interesting! So because you have never heard of if means it hadn't happen? You keep a running log of every accident involving a class C camper towing a trailer worldwide ever since class C campers or similarly sized vehicles were equipped with trailer hitches? ;-)
> > > > Also, please reread my comment - 'can' being the operative word to look for. My assertion is based on simple physics. A top-view free body diagram should make it clear why a longer lever arm between the tow hitch and the rear axle is a disadvantage when the trailer and towing vehicle is not in line during hard braking.
> > > >
> > > > Uli
> > > > 'AS'
> > >
> > > It means EXACTLY what I said: I have never heard of it. It sounds like YOU have never heard of it, either.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > >> It sounds like YOU have never heard of it, either. <<
> > Only experiences an almost jack-knifing (see my follow-up post), so I know first hand that it can happen. It made me rethink this whole 'trailer w/o brake' thing.
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
>
> So, you don't know of any Class C jack-knifing.
>
> Tom

Does an 'almost' jack-knifing I personally experienced count?

Uli
'AS'

[2G]

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 4:41:08 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:30:16 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 6:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
> > > > I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
> > > > But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > "Target"
> > >
> > > I tow with a 1997 F150 and a Lexus RX300 SUV which is AWD and has a tow package. They both do a pretty good job towing my single seat glider in a Komet trailer. I prefer the Lexus as it drives nicer and you can haul the guys to dinner when out on an encampment. There’s plenty of room in the back with the seats folded down for equipment.
> > >
> > > I would recommend 4WD/AWD pickup or mid size SUV. Make sure it comes with a tow package in either case.
> > AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.
> >
> > Tom
> I was thinking about when you need to get in that muddy pasture or farmers field. I typically drive my F150 in 2WD. No control issues at all.

The time will come when you realize that you need 4WD because you will be stuck. I needed 4WD just to get into my backyard. It came in particularly handy when I did a long retrieve in Nevada and was in 4WD for 50-60 miles of back roads, some of which were flooded. Remember, you only need one bad point to get stuck.

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

Remember also two truisms about 4WD: 4WD gets you further in before you
get stuck, and ALL vehicles (these days) have 4 wheel brakes (that's for
all the 4WD guys that jam the throttle on icy roads).

Dan
5J

On 10/29/20 9:36 AM, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 4:41:08 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:30:16 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 6:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
>>>>> I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
>>>>> But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> "Target"
>>>>
>>>> I tow with a 1997 F150 and a Lexus RX300 SUV which is AWD and has a tow package. They both do a pretty good job towing my single seat glider in a Komet trailer. I prefer the Lexus as it drives nicer and you can haul the guys to dinner when out on an encampment. There’s plenty of room in the back with the seats folded down for equipment.
>>>>
>>>> I would recommend 4WD/AWD pickup or mid size SUV. Make sure it comes with a tow package in either case.
>>> AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.
>>>
>>> Tom
>> I was thinking about when you need to get in that muddy pasture or farmers field. I typically drive my F150 in 2WD. No control issues at all.
>
> The time will come when you realize that you need 4WD because you will be stuck. I needed 4WD just to get into my backyard. It came in particularly handy when I did a long retrieve in Nevada and was in 4WD for 50-60 miles of back roads, some of which were flooded. Remember, you only need one bad point to get stuck.
>
> Tom
>

[Dan Marotta]

The Class C motor home I had was built on a Mercedes Sprinter 3500
chassis. One of its features was stability control in cross winds. I
did not know how well that worked until driving home to Moriarty, NM
from Corpus Christi, TX with 40+ kt winds. After driving for a while in
a direct cross wind, the system gave out and the vehicle became
extremely difficult to control above about 30 mph.

I discovered that, if I pulled off the road and shut it down for a
while, the system would work again for a little while until it
overheated again. Once I got back on I-40 and into a head wind, the
system worked again just fine.

I'm glad I was not towing a trailer on that trip!

Dan
5J

On 10/29/20 6:45 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> AS wrote on 10/28/2020 7:09 PM:
>> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:02:00 PM UTC-4, AS wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:39:38 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
>>>>>> Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips. <
>>>>>
>>>>> Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret
>>>>> weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
>>>>> Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the
>>>>> rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing
>>>>> vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion
>>>>> goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
>>>>> Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line
>>>>> during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a
>>>>> jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short
>>>>> overhang.
>>>>>
>>>>> Uli
>>>>> 'AS'
>>>>
>>>> I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling
>>>> a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however).
>>>> Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Interesting! So because you have never heard of if means it hadn't
>>> happen? You keep a running log of every accident involving a class C
>>> camper towing a trailer worldwide ever since class C campers or
>>> similarly sized vehicles were equipped with trailer hitches? ;-)
>>> Also, please reread my comment - 'can' being the operative word to
>>> look for. My assertion is based on simple physics. A top-view free
>>> body diagram should make it clear why a longer lever arm between the
>>> tow hitch and the rear axle is a disadvantage when the trailer and
>>> towing vehicle is not in line during hard braking.
>>>
>>> Uli
>>> 'AS'
>>
>> Oops - forgot to mention: I used to own a class C motorhome and I
>> towed a brakeless trailer with it. The motorhome was based on a 1977
>> Dodge B-Van, so no ABS or any other electronic assistance on this blue
>> shag-carpeted puppy.. I ended up almost jack-knifing on my way to
>> Caesar Creek when traffic ahead came to a sudden stop in a rain storm
>> and I tried to change lanes. Fortunately, there was nobody next to me
>> but seeing the trailer in it's full glory in the outside mirrors was
>> not fun.
>>
>> Uli
>> 'AS'
> I chose my Class C motorhome in big part because it has the longest
> wheelbase (and shortest overhang) in it's size (24'), but primarily for
> stability in strong winds, trucks passing, and to reduce the amount of
> scraping on the hitch entering/exiting driveways and gas stations. It
> would never jackknife on good surfaces, but I can see the problem with
> slippery conditions - rain, snow, gravel, etc, even with brakes.
>

[Herbert kilian]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 7:39:38 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> > > Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips. <
> >
> > Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
> > Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
> > Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
> I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however). Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.
>
> Tom
It's as simple as that: if Tom has never heard of such an event then it's probably a lie. Provide proof, people!

[danlj]

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 1:23:41 PM UTC-5, Chris Behm wrote:
> I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
> But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
> "Target"

Here's a quick little video illustrating the effect of weight distribution on fishtailing, using a treadmill and models
https://youtu.be/4jk9H5AB4lM

This short video is a little more detailed
https://youtu.be/PFzrWHTG5e8

Here's a slightly technical article on some of the important technical factors important in towing trailers with pickups.
https://www.hardworkingtrucks.com/get-sued-tow-trailer-with-pickups/

Here's a comprehensive technical review of towing physics (money required, or a friendly research librarian)
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00423117708968545
Includes interesting references.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 2:23:41 PM UTC-4, Chris Behm wrote:
> I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
> But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
> "Target"

I'll probably go against the grain of many responders, but here goes.
I have been a very active pilot, flying 4-6 contests a year and moving trailers to my shop on a regular basis.
For more than 40 years I have used my regular daily driver car. All have been intermediate sized vehicles, selected with towing capability in mind. Most are V8, good to excellent suspension sedans.
Best of all time- Jaguar XJ-6 quite a while ago. Comfortable, excellent towing, good to drive all day.
Current primary- older Lincoln LS. Good to excellent towing up to and including Cobra with ASK-21. 23 mpg on the highway with my Cobra/ASG-29.
I have never seen the need for a true truck.
We now have a Lincoln MKX cross over. Very good towing, lots of space, all wheel drive, higher ground clearance. Not as much fun to drive as the LS.
My wife has a Jaguar XF cross over. Tows very well. Same attributes as the MKX.
The two recent vehicles acquired mostly because they are easier to get in and out of for less flexible people.
Most current cross over vehicles can make good to vehicles, given good suspensions and short rear overhangs. They also tend to have robust drivetrains..
I don't need no pick 'em up truck.
FWIW
UH

[[email protected]]

Nothing wrong with a decent sized sedan or crossover vehicle for glider towing. As stated previously, weight and wheelbase are your friends. Subaru Outback is about as small as I would go.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 9:16:35 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Nothing wrong with a decent sized sedan or crossover vehicle for glider towing. As stated previously, weight and wheelbase are your friends. Subaru Outback is about as small as I would go.

I've towed since 1995 with a Nissan Maxima (great), Nissan Frontier V6/2WD (great, mileage sucked), 13 yrs with a VW Jetta diesel (very good), and 1 and a bit with a 2014 VW Golf Wagon (Jetta Sportswagen in the US - great); both the VW's were manual trans (5 and 6 speed respectively). I've towed a tube trailer with an Austria in it (up to 2007), and an Avionic AVG15 with an SZD 55 in it since (just under 2,000 lbs - tow limit of the 2014 Golf Wagon). The clamshell trailer is easier on fuel (for the diesels, goes from 45 USmpg to 32 when towing at Interstate speeds). Nothing wrong with a small sedan/wagon for towing. Both the trailers had hydraulic brakes which worked very well. Lived in Colorado, and tow in NY (Lake Placid) and to the Ridge in PA; hills were no problem.

I've also used a newer Honda CRV for the club land-out king, and it was usable (disliked the adaptive cruise control and lane-keeping beeps).

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Chris Behm wrote on 10/25/2020 11:23 AM:
> I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel)..
> But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
>

Here's another idea: look at the tow vehicles on the airfield where you will be flying. That
might give you an idea of what is useful in your area. If you do see a 4WD pickup tow vehicle,
chat up the owner, find out why they have it, then get their phone number, just in case you do
land out in a difficult access field. Buy them a beer once in a while, so they think you are
worth retrieving ;^)

Spend more on the glider, less on the tow vehicle - but get one that tows safely on the highway.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Chris Behm]

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 9:57:38 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Chris Behm wrote on 10/25/2020 11:23 AM:
> > I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel)..
> > But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
> >
> Here's another idea: look at the tow vehicles on the airfield where you will be flying. That
> might give you an idea of what is useful in your area. If you do see a 4WD pickup tow vehicle,
> chat up the owner, find out why they have it, then get their phone number, just in case you do
> land out in a difficult access field. Buy them a beer once in a while, so they think you are
> worth retrieving ;^)
>
> Spend more on the glider, less on the tow vehicle - but get one that tows safely on the highway.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1


Thanks to all of you for replying. There is lots of great info here.
I should have been more specific regarding the car vs truck question. I am wondering about outlanding retrieves. Part of me thinks that a truck would be much better, the other parts thinks that most fields that are safely landable by a glider would be able to be traversed by most cars, especially AWD cars.
Being a bit of a frugal guy, I would rather not waste fuel 99% of the time. I suppose I could purchase a dedicated vehicle for towing to a glider event and the possible outlanding recoveries. But it sure would be great to have something double duty that could do both, and be economical when not towing a glider.

What are are the ranges of trailer weights for 15M gliders? I would assume a Libelle in an Eberle trailer would be at the low end of the range. What does that weigh loaded?
How about an 18M span ship, like a Ventus 2 in a Cobra or Comet?

Thanks again, guys.
Try to be nice to each other.....

Very Respectfully,
Target

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 5:54:34 PM UTC-4, Chris Behm wrote:
> On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 9:57:38 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Chris Behm wrote on 10/25/2020 11:23 AM:
> > > I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel)..
> > > But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
> > >
> > Here's another idea: look at the tow vehicles on the airfield where you will be flying. That
> > might give you an idea of what is useful in your area. If you do see a 4WD pickup tow vehicle,
> > chat up the owner, find out why they have it, then get their phone number, just in case you do
> > land out in a difficult access field. Buy them a beer once in a while, so they think you are
> > worth retrieving ;^)
> >
> > Spend more on the glider, less on the tow vehicle - but get one that tows safely on the highway.
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> Thanks to all of you for replying. There is lots of great info here.
> I should have been more specific regarding the car vs truck question. I am wondering about outlanding retrieves. Part of me thinks that a truck would be much better, the other parts thinks that most fields that are safely landable by a glider would be able to be traversed by most cars, especially AWD cars.
> Being a bit of a frugal guy, I would rather not waste fuel 99% of the time. I suppose I could purchase a dedicated vehicle for towing to a glider event and the possible outlanding recoveries. But it sure would be great to have something double duty that could do both, and be economical when not towing a glider.
>
> What are are the ranges of trailer weights for 15M gliders? I would assume a Libelle in an Eberle trailer would be at the low end of the range. What does that weigh loaded?
> How about an 18M span ship, like a Ventus 2 in a Cobra or Comet?
>
> Thanks again, guys.
> Try to be nice to each other.....
>
> Very Respectfully,
> Target

I will throw my $0.02US here.....
I KNOW I have not towed as many miles as many here.
I will say I have towed using an early "Super Beetle" (90hp on a good day?) with a heavy wood trailer on flat roads.....55MPH with no tailwind was a struggle...Frikkin trailer was a high percentage of tow vehicle weight, even empty....sigh.
I have towed with large motor homes.

Personal cars, I have used a '75 Chevy Monza 4cyl 5MT, '84 Daytona turbo 4cyl 5mt, '88 Camry Alltrac 4cyl AT, '75 Chevy Nova 5L V8 AT, '98 Legacy GT wagon (estate or shooting brake....depends on geography) MT.
Most had upgraded suspension as well as tires.
Wheelbase and tow vehicle weight made a difference.
Heaviest trailer was an ASK-21 in a clamshell behind the Legacy. Totally fine at speed until cut off by a butthead on a downhill.. thanks for the truckers that saw it coming and gave me "wiggle room".
The Nova had "get up and go", but not good in soft fields.
The Camry was good in soft fields, but weak.
The Legacy was better, but could deal with poor surfaces. It was also a good daily driver and decent on long (300+ miles) tows.

Many decades ago, I "heard" about 9 passenger wagons with modded suspension, NASCAR type drivers going "really fast" back when you could land out, retrieve, return, relaunch......still score a day.....yes, before the first US gas embargo.

So, what is best?
Who will drive (some don't drive MT's).
By yourself or sorta dedicated crew?
Do you have a second vehicle onsite?

Many questions, many decisions.

Lots to think about.

[Chip Bearden[_2_]]

I agree that few pilots want to invest in a special-purpose "glider towing only" vehicle. I've towed with everything from a Jeep CJ-7 (not a lot of fun although you never had to worry about nodding off to sleep accidentally) to a mini motorhome. I fly 3-4 contests a year and keep my trailer at home, towing it up to the gliderport about an hour away.

So years ago, I bought a used full-size Chevy van on eBay and fitted it out (also using eBay) with an interior, reclining seats, lights, sound, etc. There's a full-width third-row seat that I can sleep on (obviously not while driving). I paid about $11,000 for it 18 years ago and put another few thousand into equipping it. It's still got less than 100K miles because the only thing I use it for is soaring with occasional family vacation trips.

As Charlie Spratt told me once about all the guys with full-size vans: "We buy them as trucks and drive them like cars. So they last a long time."

I stays packed with all the tools, spares, equipment, etc., I use for soaring. I've slept in it for every contest since I went crewless about 15 years ago--with exceptions for Uvalde and TSA. If it's warm/humid, (e.g., Cordele, or on the road to a contest at a rest stop), a small fan cools things down just enough. It's long ago paid for its cost to acquire and I like the fact that I never really have to unpack/pack it.

It's comfortable to drive and a dream to tow with. Reliability has been generally good (the few problems have all been on long-distance soaring trips, of course). Mileage is OK (mid teens) but I don't drive it that much. It's got a V6, which has been enough to haul a family of four out West with the trailer multiple times. More recent V8s would be a better choice for both power and economy.

The one thing I miss is AWD/4WD. Once in a great while, it would have been nice to be able to drive out into a field instead of carrying the glider out in pieces. But that pushes up the cost and complication. Despite my participation on this newsgroup, I try to stay friendly with other pilots so that if I need 4WD someday, I can borrow it. :)

When I was growing up and for years after, we towed with the daily driver. Breaking that rule can be very expensive but it doesn't necessarily mean buying a brand-new high-end vehicle that sits most of the time.

Just another view.

Chip Bearden
JB

[Dan Marotta]

Freshly plowed fields, especially hilly ones, might be difficult for a
lot of AWD cars. I've landed in some of those. We, my partner and I,
once had a rancher use his tractor with front end loader to pull our
glider out of his field. He also took down a fence to get the job done.

Dan
5J

On 10/30/20 3:54 PM, Chris Behm wrote:
> Part of me thinks that a truck would be much better, the other parts thinks that most fields that are safely landable by a glider would be able to be traversed by most cars, especially AWD cars.

[6PK]

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
> I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
> But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
> "Target"

I fly regularly straight out (putting on many, many miles) for more years now that I care to admit.
I always had a minivan one Toyota and now I'm on my fifth Honda Odyssey (works well for me),never any issues. Whatever the tow vehicle what is critical is that the tow hitch is the right kind/height keeping the trailer level. The axel on the trailer needs to be in the right spot too for balance (no worries about Cobra trailers there).Of course good quality trailer tires are very important too.

[George Haeh]

On one two seater outlanding close to the club, my Subaru Forester was tasked to take the trailer into the field and pull it out with the glider. In another case, landing in a fallow sandy loam field glider had the glider sitting on the gear doors. I was thinking I'd have to ask the farmer for a tractor, but the Forester had no problem at all. There's been a lot of other soft fields. AWD and 215/60R16 tires do great, with the exception of maneuvering a trailer in pea gravel when the ECU throws up its hands.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 7:45:43 PM UTC-4, Chip Bearden wrote:
> I agree that few pilots want to invest in a special-purpose "glider towing only" vehicle. I've towed with everything from a Jeep CJ-7 (not a lot of fun although you never had to worry about nodding off to sleep accidentally) to a mini motorhome. I fly 3-4 contests a year and keep my trailer at home, towing it up to the gliderport about an hour away.
>
> So years ago, I bought a used full-size Chevy van on eBay and fitted it out (also using eBay) with an interior, reclining seats, lights, sound, etc. There's a full-width third-row seat that I can sleep on (obviously not while driving). I paid about $11,000 for it 18 years ago and put another few thousand into equipping it. It's still got less than 100K miles because the only thing I use it for is soaring with occasional family vacation trips.
>
> As Charlie Spratt told me once about all the guys with full-size vans: "We buy them as trucks and drive them like cars. So they last a long time."
>
> I stays packed with all the tools, spares, equipment, etc., I use for soaring. I've slept in it for every contest since I went crewless about 15 years ago--with exceptions for Uvalde and TSA. If it's warm/humid, (e.g., Cordele, or on the road to a contest at a rest stop), a small fan cools things down just enough. It's long ago paid for its cost to acquire and I like the fact that I never really have to unpack/pack it.
>
> It's comfortable to drive and a dream to tow with. Reliability has been generally good (the few problems have all been on long-distance soaring trips, of course). Mileage is OK (mid teens) but I don't drive it that much. It's got a V6, which has been enough to haul a family of four out West with the trailer multiple times. More recent V8s would be a better choice for both power and economy.
>
> The one thing I miss is AWD/4WD. Once in a great while, it would have been nice to be able to drive out into a field instead of carrying the glider out in pieces. But that pushes up the cost and complication. Despite my participation on this newsgroup, I try to stay friendly with other pilots so that if I need 4WD someday, I can borrow it. :)
>
> When I was growing up and for years after, we towed with the daily driver.. Breaking that rule can be very expensive but it doesn't necessarily mean buying a brand-new high-end vehicle that sits most of the time.
>
> Just another view.
>
> Chip Bearden
> JB

Problem is, Chip, that over the 18 years you've paid for that van over again in insurance cost. That's the hurdle in the way of keeping an extra vehicle dedicated to soaring. I think insurance should cost by the total miles you drive over all your vehicles, alas they don't do it that way. Annual "registration" (pure bureaucracy, our most regressive tax) also costs quite a bit, and in some states they also charge you a percentage of the vehicle value every year in taxes.

[Chip Bearden[_2_]]

> Problem is, Chip, that over the 18 years you've paid for that van over again in insurance cost. That's the hurdle in the way of keeping an extra vehicle dedicated to soaring. I think insurance should cost by the total miles you drive over all your vehicles, alas they don't do it that way. Annual "registration" (pure bureaucracy, our most regressive tax) also costs quite a bit, and in some states they also charge you a percentage of the vehicle value every year in taxes.

Good points. Registration cost is not a big deal in NJ although insurance is one of the highest in the country. But it's a second vehicle, one driver, and I do provide estimated miles per year to the insurance co. every year on their form so as a 21-year-old vehicle and with a big deductible, the only big expense is liability. Some insurers are offering mileage-based coverage now but I haven't investigated it. With retirement looming, that may make sense for me going forward (pre-COVID, my daily commute was 60 miles roundtrip).

I'd almost certainly have a second vehicle anyway, just as a backup. This way I have a soaring-specific vehicle. I can drive it to the office if I have to but typically only to put a few miles on it to keep it running. And we did use it last year for a family reunion trip.

Frankly, as much as I sleep in it at contests (and to/from for long hauls), I'm still ahead on $ even though that's more of a benefit than a primary reason for having it. If I tried to justify my soaring expenses based on cost or ROI, I'd have to get out of the sport. :) And sleeping in the van every night isn't for everyone. I get odd looks each time I show up at a contest and tell them where I'm staying.

Speaking of which, the one reason I didn't consider a pickup truck is the sleeping capacity. With my family size at home at the time, I would have had to go the crew cab route and that limits the bed length and, hence, sleeping options. If not for that, I would definitely have looked at 4WD pickup trucks, in particular as the weather in NJ where I live makes AWD a nice thing during the winter.

The point several have made is that you have to define your personal objective(s) and criteria, then evaluate each option against those to arrive at the best choice. For me it was a used cargo van that I converted myself and am still using almost 20 years later.

Chip Bearden
JB

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 5:57:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 2:23:41 PM UTC-4, Chris Behm wrote:
> > I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
> > But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Regards,
> > "Target"
> I'll probably go against the grain of many responders, but here goes.
> I have been a very active pilot, flying 4-6 contests a year and moving trailers to my shop on a regular basis.
> For more than 40 years I have used my regular daily driver car. All have been intermediate sized vehicles, selected with towing capability in mind. Most are V8, good to excellent suspension sedans.
> Best of all time- Jaguar XJ-6 quite a while ago. Comfortable, excellent towing, good to drive all day.
> Current primary- older Lincoln LS. Good to excellent towing up to and including Cobra with ASK-21. 23 mpg on the highway with my Cobra/ASG-29.
> I have never seen the need for a true truck.
> We now have a Lincoln MKX cross over. Very good towing, lots of space, all wheel drive, higher ground clearance. Not as much fun to drive as the LS.
> My wife has a Jaguar XF cross over. Tows very well. Same attributes as the MKX.
> The two recent vehicles acquired mostly because they are easier to get in and out of for less flexible people.
> Most current cross over vehicles can make good to vehicles, given good suspensions and short rear overhangs. They also tend to have robust drivetrains.
> I don't need no pick 'em up truck.
> FWIW
> UH
"I have never seen the need for a true truck" For the life of me, I can't believe someone would actually post those words! While, technically true, it just feels like
the first time my Father didn't let me win. I grew up in Idaho, and have had a 4 X Pick Up truck my entire life. Just had to rebuild the differential because I have never used the 4x,
but damnit, I have it!

[Dan Marotta]

Funny!

When I showed up at TSA (Texas Soaring Association) with a 1988 Ford
F-150 extended cab, long bed, 4WD truck, I was asked if that wasn't
overkill. But when I moved to Colorado 2 years later, it was just right!

Dan
5J

On 10/31/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> "I have never seen the need for a true truck" For the life of me, I can't believe someone would actually post those words! While, technically true, it just feels like
> the first time my Father didn't let me win. I grew up in Idaho, and have had a 4 X Pick Up truck my entire life. Just had to rebuild the differential because I have never used the 4x,
> but damnit, I have it!

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 10/30/2020 5:57 AM:
> On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 2:23:41 PM UTC-4, Chris Behm wrote:
>> I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
>> But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Regards,
>> "Target"
>
> I'll probably go against the grain of many responders, but here goes.
> I have been a very active pilot, flying 4-6 contests a year and moving trailers to my shop on a regular basis.
> For more than 40 years I have used my regular daily driver car. All have been intermediate sized vehicles, selected with towing capability in mind. Most are V8, good to excellent suspension sedans.
> Best of all time- Jaguar XJ-6 quite a while ago. Comfortable, excellent towing, good to drive all day.
> Current primary- older Lincoln LS. Good to excellent towing up to and including Cobra with ASK-21. 23 mpg on the highway with my Cobra/ASG-29.
> I have never seen the need for a true truck.
> We now have a Lincoln MKX cross over. Very good towing, lots of space, all wheel drive, higher ground clearance. Not as much fun to drive as the LS.
> My wife has a Jaguar XF cross over. Tows very well. Same attributes as the MKX.
> The two recent vehicles acquired mostly because they are easier to get in and out of for less flexible people.
> Most current cross over vehicles can make good to vehicles, given good suspensions and short rear overhangs. They also tend to have robust drivetrains..
> I don't need no pick 'em up truck.
> FWIW

And now that you have a motorglider, the likelihood of needing a true truck is even smaller.
That applies more widely, too, as the percentage motorgliders is increasing. I've also noticed
glider pilots are not as bold as they were 40 years (even the ones under 50), their gliders
have better performance, and the crews are staying home, which leads to more "landouts" at
airports than fields.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 9:31:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Remember also two truisms about 4WD: 4WD gets you further in before you
> get stuck, and ALL vehicles (these days) have 4 wheel brakes (that's for
> all the 4WD guys that jam the throttle on icy roads).
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 10/29/20 9:36 AM, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 4:41:08 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:30:16 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 6:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> >>>> On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
> >>>>> I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
> >>>>> But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> "Target"
> >>>>
> >>>> I tow with a 1997 F150 and a Lexus RX300 SUV which is AWD and has a tow package. They both do a pretty good job towing my single seat glider in a Komet trailer. I prefer the Lexus as it drives nicer and you can haul the guys to dinner when out on an encampment. There’s plenty of room in the back with the seats folded down for equipment.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would recommend 4WD/AWD pickup or mid size SUV. Make sure it comes with a tow package in either case.
> >>> AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >> I was thinking about when you need to get in that muddy pasture or farmers field. I typically drive my F150 in 2WD. No control issues at all.
> >
> > The time will come when you realize that you need 4WD because you will be stuck. I needed 4WD just to get into my backyard. It came in particularly handy when I did a long retrieve in Nevada and was in 4WD for 50-60 miles of back roads, some of which were flooded. Remember, you only need one bad point to get stuck.
> >
> > Tom
> >

Sounds more like urban myths to me. I have heard similar things said about open class gliders. I have used my 4WD vehicles MANY times to avoid getting stuck and spinning out, especially when I was skiing. With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works. 4WD, however, is not a substitute for common sense.

Tom

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 9:20:07 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel
> you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works.

Incorrect for modern vehicles equipped with limited-slip differentials...

[Craig Reinholt]

I've towed many years and many miles with both a Toyota Tacoma and Acura MDX. Both towed my gliders very well. Choose a vehicle that best suits your off gliding needs that is also robust enough to tow. FWIW.
Craig

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dave Nadler wrote on 11/2/2020 6:27 AM:
> On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 9:20:07 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>> With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel
>> you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works.
>
> Incorrect for modern vehicles equipped with limited-slip differentials...
>
And with various styles of "electronic stability control", which use methods like braking the
spinning wheel to allow the differential to send power to the wheel with traction.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Tony[_7_]]

On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 11:49:02 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Dave Nadler wrote on 11/2/2020 6:27 AM:
> > On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 9:20:07 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> >> With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel
> >> you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works.
> >
> > Incorrect for modern vehicles equipped with limited-slip differentials...
> >
> And with various styles of "electronic stability control", which use methods like braking the
> spinning wheel to allow the differential to send power to the wheel with traction.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-

In 15 years I have had 10 off - airport landouts in a TX-PA-FL triangle. None required 4wd, though one benefited from the high clearance a truck or truck-based SUV would provide. Thanks, KG!

[Dave Nadler]

On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 7:10:34 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
> In 15 years I have had 10 off - airport landouts in a TX-PA-FL triangle.

Thats a hell of a triangle Tony!
Is it on OLC??

[Tony[_7_]]

On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 8:11:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 7:10:34 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
> > In 15 years I have had 10 off - airport landouts in a TX-PA-FL triangle.
> Thats a hell of a triangle Tony!
> Is it on OLC??
Ha! Sure, in bits and pieces over 15 years! Fortunately my 1-26, 1-35C, and "new" H-201b have not ended up in "bits and pieces". Got out to KS, CO, & UT too but made it around.

[2G]

On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 6:27:33 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 9:20:07 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel
> > you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works.
>
> Incorrect for modern vehicles equipped with limited-slip differentials...

Limited-slip differentials are primarily used on 2WD sports cars. 4WD is a MUCH better option: if you lose traction on one wheel you have 3 others providing traction vs one. I haven't seen any SUVs where this is an option, anyway.

[2G]

On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 4:10:34 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
> On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 11:49:02 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Dave Nadler wrote on 11/2/2020 6:27 AM:
> > > On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 9:20:07 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > >> With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel
> > >> you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works.
> > >
> > > Incorrect for modern vehicles equipped with limited-slip differentials...
> > >
> > And with various styles of "electronic stability control", which use methods like braking the
> > spinning wheel to allow the differential to send power to the wheel with traction.
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-
>
> In 15 years I have had 10 off - airport landouts in a TX-PA-FL triangle. None required 4wd, though one benefited from the high clearance a truck or truck-based SUV would provide. Thanks, KG!

I have had several, including the one I mentioned that was on 50 miles of bad roads. Plus, it is very handy in wintertime (even in TX). The bottom line is you never know in advance if you need it.

Tom

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 02 Nov 2020 20:53:14 -0800, 2G wrote:

> On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 6:27:33 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 9:20:07 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>> > With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel you ARE
>> > stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works.
>>
>> Incorrect for modern vehicles equipped with limited-slip
>> differentials...
>
> Limited-slip differentials are primarily used on 2WD sports cars. 4WD is
> a MUCH better option: if you lose traction on one wheel you have 3
> others providing traction vs one. I haven't seen any SUVs where this is
> an option, anyway.

Something with Landrover or Jeep written on it will do the job. G-Wagen
or Land Cruiser also count.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 11/2/2020 8:53 PM:
> On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 6:27:33 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 9:20:07 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>>> With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel
>>> you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works.
>>
>> Incorrect for modern vehicles equipped with limited-slip differentials...
>
> Limited-slip differentials are primarily used on 2WD sports cars. 4WD is a MUCH better option: if you lose traction on one wheel you have 3 others providing traction vs one. I haven't seen any SUVs where this is an option, anyway.
>
Isn't that what AWD does? It's available in SUVs, sedans, and even a minivan.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 6:05:48 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 11/2/2020 8:53 PM:
> > On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 6:27:33 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> >> On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 9:20:07 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> >>> With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel
> >>> you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works.
> >>
> >> Incorrect for modern vehicles equipped with limited-slip differentials....
> >
> > Limited-slip differentials are primarily used on 2WD sports cars. 4WD is a MUCH better option: if you lose traction on one wheel you have 3 others providing traction vs one. I haven't seen any SUVs where this is an option, anyway.
> >
> Isn't that what AWD does? It's available in SUVs, sedans, and even a minivan.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Limited-slip differentials are offered for 2WD vehicles only. I once had this on a Ford F-250 pickup, which I was not very satisfied with (it didn't seem to work as advertised). Here is a good explanation comparing AWD to 4WD:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a24663372/all-wheel-drive-four-wheel-drive-differences-explained/#:~:text=Generally%2C%20an%20all%2Dwheel%20drive,f unctions%20like%20a%20locked%20differential.&text=But%20four%2Dwheel%20drive%20often,works%20so %20well%20off%20road.
If that isn't enough, here is another:
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a27630736/awd-vs-4wd/

The bottom line is if you want maximum traction while off-road get 4WD. AWD is perfect for people that only drive on roads that may get occasional snow and ice.

Tom

[Stephen Struthers]

At 02:08 05 November 2020, 2G wrote:
>On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 6:05:48 AM UTC-8, Eric
Greenwell wrote:
>> 2G wrote on 11/2/2020 8:53 PM:
>> > On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 6:27:33 AM UTC-8, Dave
Nadler wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 9:20:07 PM UTC-5, 2G
wrote:
>> >>> With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven
wheel
>> >>> you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the
differential
>wor=
>ks.
>> >>
>> >> Incorrect for modern vehicles equipped with limited-slip
>differentials=
>....
>> >=20
>> > Limited-slip differentials are primarily used on 2WD sports
cars. 4WD
>i=
>s a MUCH better option: if you lose traction on one wheel you have
3
>others=
> providing traction vs one. I haven't seen any SUVs where this is
an
>option=
>, anyway.
>> >=20
>> Isn't that what AWD does? It's available in SUVs, sedans, and
even a
>mini=
>van.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us"
to
>email=
> me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>
>https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-
th=
>e-guide-1
>
>Limited-slip differentials are offered for 2WD vehicles only. I once
had
>th=
>is on a Ford F-250 pickup, which I was not very satisfied with (it
didn't
>s=
>eem to work as advertised). Here is a good explanation comparing
AWD to
>4WD=
>:
>https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a24663372/all-wheel-
drive-four-whe=
>el-drive-differences-
explained/#:~:text=3DGenerally%2C%20an%20all%2Dwheel%2=
>0drive,functions%20like%20a%20locked%20differentia l.&text=3D
But%20four%2Dwh=
>eel%20drive%20often,works%20so%20well%20off%20road .
>If that isn't enough, here is another:
>https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a27630736/awd-vs-4wd/
>
>The bottom line is if you want maximum traction while off-road get
4WD.
>AWD=
> is perfect for people that only drive on roads that may get
occasional
>sno=
>w and ice
Tom

Back in 1987 Audi produced the 80 Quattro, a four door sedan with
4 wheel drive. It had pneumatic diff locks on the front centre and
rear diff. I towed a 2 seater in a 4 wheel covered trailer up a 2 mile
25% slope in a foot of snow and overtook everything in sight. going
down the other side was much more interesting

[John Johnson]

I am not a fan of large trucks that rarely get used as trucks and much prefer mid-size SUV's like my wife's RX350. But every now and then a truck bed is handy... so, with 185kmi on my old CRV, I compromised last spring and got a Honda Ridgeline awd. Driving feel, size, and interior is very similar to a Honda Pilot so it is great running errands around town and gets 24-27mpg mixed city/hwy. After easily towing all my daughter's stuff to Illinois from AZ in a 4800lb u-haul trailer (17-18mpg), I can attest to the 5000lb tow rating and the 300hp V6's power. I get 21-22mpg towing my DG300 in a Cobra trailer. The 2-way tailgate and trunk in the bed are extremely handy (way more than I expected). Quiet, comfortable, not too big, lots of modern features, and very easy to drive and park. Have 16k miles on it now and can say it suits me and my needs as well as I had hoped. Other than pulling the Cobra through some deep sand after the dirt road to El Tiro gliderport got washed out, I haven't made much use of the AWD system. For my type of driving, I think this "activate on slippage" awd system will be more than acceptable. If not, we have a great club with lots of helpful members with hard-core 4WD capability who enjoy good beer with their retrieve dinners.
JJ

[BobW]

On 11/5/2020 10:13 AM, Stephen Struthers wrote:
>
> Back in 1987 Audi produced the 80 Quattro, a four door sedan with
> 4 wheel drive. It had pneumatic diff locks on the front centre and
> rear diff. I towed a 2 seater in a 4 wheel covered trailer up a 2 mile
> 25% slope in a foot of snow and overtook everything in sight.

25% slope...over two miles?!? Holy Moly - like the thug in "Dirty Harry" I
gots to know. Where IS that? In the USA, I've never seen anything steeper than
15% (16?) and that's down to the dam at Black Canyon of the Gunnison. Plenty
of 12/13/14-percent signs in CO/UT, but 25%? I'm amazed there *were* others to
overtake!

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Frank Whiteley]

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 7:08:22 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 6:05:48 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > 2G wrote on 11/2/2020 8:53 PM:
> > > On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 6:27:33 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 9:20:07 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > >>> With 2WD once you have lost traction on either driven wheel
> > >>> you ARE stuck or are spinning out because of how the differential works.
> > >>
> > >> Incorrect for modern vehicles equipped with limited-slip differentials...
> > >
> > > Limited-slip differentials are primarily used on 2WD sports cars. 4WD is a MUCH better option: if you lose traction on one wheel you have 3 others providing traction vs one. I haven't seen any SUVs where this is an option, anyway.
> > >
> > Isn't that what AWD does? It's available in SUVs, sedans, and even a minivan.
> >
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> Limited-slip differentials are offered for 2WD vehicles only. I once had this on a Ford F-250 pickup, which I was not very satisfied with (it didn't seem to work as advertised). Here is a good explanation comparing AWD to 4WD:
> https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a24663372/all-wheel-drive-four-wheel-drive-differences-explained/#:~:text=Generally%2C%20an%20all%2Dwheel%20drive,f unctions%20like%20a%20locked%20differential.&text=But%20four%2Dwheel%20drive%20often,works%20so %20well%20off%20road.
> If that isn't enough, here is another:
> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a27630736/awd-vs-4wd/
>
> The bottom line is if you want maximum traction while off-road get 4WD. AWD is perfect for people that only drive on roads that may get occasional snow and ice.
>
> Tom

My Dodge Durango very definitely has 4WD and a rear LSD, though it was not in the options listed in the back of the glove box. I rebuilt it four years ago. It was very difficult to identify from outside of the pumpkin as same diff could be fitted or refitted with/without it. The vehicle is definitely a goat with a small turning radius, plenty of ice and snow clearance, and tows large glider trailers very well at impressive speeds. It sucks gas though, especially the ethanol infused stuff.

Frank

[kenward1000]

Les Sebald, the long time owner of Soar Truckee, would tell anyone who would listen, to buy a 74 Cadillac Coupe DeVille. Heavy enough that the trailer couldn't wag the dog. Low hitch height. Plenty of power. Comfy ride for your driver. Style points.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

kenward1000 wrote on 11/12/2020 9:52 PM:
> Les Sebald, the long time owner of Soar Truckee, would tell anyone who would listen, to buy a 74 Cadillac Coupe DeVille. Heavy enough that the trailer couldn't wag the dog. Low hitch height. Plenty of power. Comfy ride for your driver. Style points.
>
How long ago was that? Imagine what a disaster in motion that car is now.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[AS]

On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 12:52:11 AM UTC-5, kenward1000 wrote:
> Les Sebald, the long time owner of Soar Truckee, would tell anyone who would listen, to buy a 74 Cadillac Coupe DeVille. Heavy enough that the trailer couldn't wag the dog. Low hitch height. Plenty of power. Comfy ride for your driver. Style points.

The type or class of vehicles which hasn't been mentioned here (unless I missed it) is the 'Full-sized Van'. I tow a two-axle trailer with a Ford E150 conversion van, which I bought used in an estate sale for a song and a dance. It has a 5.8 L V8 and it is my weekend/vacation/airport vehicle - not my daily beater - so I really don't care about the economy of that beast. So far, I have done several 3,000+ mile round-trips across the US and it is a very comfortable, quiet ride. It has not been overpowered by the trailer (yet), which has brakes in good working order and is equipped with a tire pressure/temperature monitoring system. The van has the short overhang which enhances the stability and the tow hitch is positioned such that I don't scrape the ground when pulling into a gas station. Overall, a big thumbs-up for this class of vehicles - a perfect fit for my situation.

Uli
'AS'