Old Folks Poll

[Roy B.]

I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion for the guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or more. So, my question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you have seen in the sport over the years you have participated?"

For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS - which changed everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking and badge flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much better than what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be OLC . . .
What do you think?

ROY

[Tango Whisky]

OLC.

[AS]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion for the guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or more. So, my question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you have seen in the sport over the years you have participated?"
>
> For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS - which changed everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking and badge flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much better than what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be OLC . . .
> What do you think?
>
> ROY

The change from an all 'Wood, Steel Tube, Aluminum & Fabric' fleet to an all Glass fleet.

Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion for the guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or more. So, my question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you have seen in the sport over the years you have participated?"
>
> For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS - which changed everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking and badge flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much better than what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be OLC . . .
> What do you think?
>
> ROY

Cost, of new gliders and GPS

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion for the guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or more. So, my question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you have seen in the sport over the years you have participated?"
>
> For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS - which changed everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking and badge flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much better than what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be OLC . . .
> What do you think?
>
> ROY

I think I would say loss of availability of flying sites at reasonable distance to population areas.
The ability to mow the grass on Saturday morning and go gliding in the afternoon has been significantly reduced.
Fewer sites- fewer contact nodes- reduced exposure- reduced training- reduced number of active pilots.
As for as contest flying I would say that tasking and contest organizations have evolved to adapt to crewless pilots being almost the norm.
FWIW
UH

[Waveguru]

My CG.....

Boggs

[Roy B.]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 9:23:37 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
> My CG.....
>
> Boggs

[Roy B.]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 9:23:37 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
> My CG.....
Boggs

Copy that, brother.

[Doug B[_2_]]

Too few young people (as the title of this poll suggests)

[Chip Bearden[_2_]]

You didn't think my response would be a one-liner, did you? :)

Everything already cited:
* better trailers (which, with the fiberglass revolution starting in the mid 1960s, made possible near-universal rig-to-fly style vs. hangars, the norm when I was coming up)
* GPS (more flexible tasking but goodbye navigation skills as a way to enhance contest points)
* availability--at a cost--of competitive sailplanes to the average pilot. Less than a dozen top-ranked, well-heeled, lucky guys got one of Len Neimi's Sisus back in the '60s.
* universal availability of really good instrumentation (I used to spend a lot of time tuning my varios/TE with gust filters, restrictors, add/subtracting tubing lengths, capillaries, copper scrubbers in capacity bottles, etc. Now you just plug it all together and configure the software)
* greater consistency of manufacture for new gliders (no more hoping you got a good one from the factory)
* crewless contests (I recall when Erik Mozer showed up crewless for a Nationals around 1992, IIRC; I was truly shocked! Now I've only had a crew a couple of times since 2006. Hahaha).

But the two biggies for me are:

1. Leveling of competitive skills that started with the Byars & Holbrook seminars and continued through Reichmann's book and other publications and programs. The top handful of pilots used to be far better than the rest of the pack. Now they're usually more tightly packed, although leeching (another trend that got much worse) and having comparable sailplanes have contributed to this.

2. Demands on time. There's just so much other stuff going on in our lives that conflicts with soaring: other activities, family, job, etc. Those were always there but when I was a 9-to-5 guy, it was easy to free up the time and I think the same was true for my father. Now many of us are pulled in so many directions.

I don't know whether cost, per se, should be on the list. Prices seem astronomical now compared with the old days but compared to income, I don't know.. George Moffat used to say, IIRC, that his limit was 1.5x annual salary.

One thing I might add but I'm not sure it's universally true is that good sailplanes seems to remain competitive for much longer; i.e., the evolution of "high performance" is much slower. The gliders I think of as enduring in the old days--Standard Austria, Ka-6, Sisu--were only at the top for a few years. Today, the ASW 20 (ca 1976) is still out there, though Sports and Club Class have made that possible in recent years. And many others with long histories: e.g., Discus 2, LS8, ASW 27. But I'm still competing in my ASW 24, designed in ~1986 and purchased in 1992. We always kept gliders a little longer than most anyway but we felt the competition pass us by while doing it. Now it doesn't happen as fast or to the same extent, which is a good thing, IMO.

And, finally, a much different set of requirements to manage the technology.. In the old days, it helped if you knew how to sand and fill metal wings to keep the gliders competitive. Now it helps to be tech savvy with interfaces, communications protocols, file formats, multiple tech platforms and OSs, etc. Then, as now, you can pay someone to do this and/or lean on your friends. But while the sailplanes themselves are evolving more slowly, keeping up with the technology from an IT perspective is more difficult.

Just my brief thoughts. Hahahs. You asked, Roy.

Chip Bearden
JB

[Roy B.]

"And, finally, a much different set of requirements to manage the technology. In the old days, it helped if you knew how to sand and fill metal wings to keep the gliders competitive. Now it helps to be tech savvy with interfaces, communications protocols, file formats, multiple tech platforms and OSs, etc. Then, as now, you can pay someone to do this and/or lean on your friends. But while the sailplanes themselves are evolving more slowly, keeping up with the technology from an IT perspective is more difficult."

Great response Chip - and I really hadn't thought about the evolution in necessary skills set, but it's true. Alot of things we learned to do over the years are now quite relevant and many things my students want to know about, I know very little of.

Sometimes I feel like a dinosaur . . . and it's getting cold outside.
ROY

[Michael Opitz]

At 12:41 03 November 2020, Roy B. wrote:
>I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion
for
>t=
>he guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or
more. So,
>my=
> question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you
have seen
>i=
>n the sport over the years you have participated?"
>
>For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS -
which
>chan=
>ged everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking
and badge
>=
>flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much
better
>th=
>an what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be
OLC . . .
>What do you think?
>
>ROY
>
In the 1960's-70's, it was the transition to glass birds for
competition.

In the 1980's, trainers started to also go to glass The turbulated
airfoil designs added a performance jump that was not foreseen.
Then came the Nav/Glide computers - first dead reckoning, and
then with GPS. It took away the whole navigation aspect to
competitive soaring. All of the old great navigator pilots were sort
of relegated to obsolescence, and now it became much more of
a computer tech-savvy game. Now, we have in flight uploads of
data like SkySight with the latest wave or thermal predictions to
show you exactly where the next climb will be. The technology
invasion into the cockpit has been incredible.

RO

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

I miss the smells.

Butyrate, casein, D-76, acetate, hypo, burning camphor...

[Roy B.]

Anybody remember what a "prayer wheel" was?
When did you last see one?
ROY

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-5, Chip Bearden wrote:
> You didn't think my response would be a one-liner, did you? :)
>
> Everything already cited:
> * better trailers (which, with the fiberglass revolution starting in the mid 1960s, made possible near-universal rig-to-fly style vs. hangars, the norm when I was coming up)
> * GPS (more flexible tasking but goodbye navigation skills as a way to enhance contest points)
> * availability--at a cost--of competitive sailplanes to the average pilot.. Less than a dozen top-ranked, well-heeled, lucky guys got one of Len Neimi's Sisus back in the '60s.
> * universal availability of really good instrumentation (I used to spend a lot of time tuning my varios/TE with gust filters, restrictors, add/subtracting tubing lengths, capillaries, copper scrubbers in capacity bottles, etc. Now you just plug it all together and configure the software)
> * greater consistency of manufacture for new gliders (no more hoping you got a good one from the factory)
> * crewless contests (I recall when Erik Mozer showed up crewless for a Nationals around 1992, IIRC; I was truly shocked! Now I've only had a crew a couple of times since 2006. Hahaha).
>
> But the two biggies for me are:
>
> 1. Leveling of competitive skills that started with the Byars & Holbrook seminars and continued through Reichmann's book and other publications and programs. The top handful of pilots used to be far better than the rest of the pack. Now they're usually more tightly packed, although leeching (another trend that got much worse) and having comparable sailplanes have contributed to this.
>
> 2. Demands on time. There's just so much other stuff going on in our lives that conflicts with soaring: other activities, family, job, etc. Those were always there but when I was a 9-to-5 guy, it was easy to free up the time and I think the same was true for my father. Now many of us are pulled in so many directions.
>
> I don't know whether cost, per se, should be on the list. Prices seem astronomical now compared with the old days but compared to income, I don't know. George Moffat used to say, IIRC, that his limit was 1.5x annual salary.
>
> One thing I might add but I'm not sure it's universally true is that good sailplanes seems to remain competitive for much longer; i.e., the evolution of "high performance" is much slower. The gliders I think of as enduring in the old days--Standard Austria, Ka-6, Sisu--were only at the top for a few years. Today, the ASW 20 (ca 1976) is still out there, though Sports and Club Class have made that possible in recent years. And many others with long histories: e.g., Discus 2, LS8, ASW 27. But I'm still competing in my ASW 24, designed in ~1986 and purchased in 1992. We always kept gliders a little longer than most anyway but we felt the competition pass us by while doing it. Now it doesn't happen as fast or to the same extent, which is a good thing, IMO.
>
> And, finally, a much different set of requirements to manage the technology. In the old days, it helped if you knew how to sand and fill metal wings to keep the gliders competitive. Now it helps to be tech savvy with interfaces, communications protocols, file formats, multiple tech platforms and OSs, etc. Then, as now, you can pay someone to do this and/or lean on your friends. But while the sailplanes themselves are evolving more slowly, keeping up with the technology from an IT perspective is more difficult.
>
> Just my brief thoughts. Hahahs. You asked, Roy.
>
> Chip Bearden
> JB

What Chip said (though I'm MUCH younger than he is :-) )

I think that GPS/recording had so many first order and second order impacts that it overwhelms the other. Whether it is competition tasking or "OLC Flying", the types of flights and ability to really benchmark oneself against others is a huge change. When I first started, I marveled at the descriptions by Striedieck, Seymour, Kai Gertsen about how they went here or dug out there or followed some "convergence" somewhere. Now, you can study every flight (if you're so inclined) and look at exactly what the big boys/girls did. To me that means current generation pilots can become reasonably competitive so much faster if they have the drive rather than having to sort of "learn by making every mistake in the book".

At the end of the day, it's still about pilot decisions more than equipment, so being able to grow the personal knowledge base more quickly seems to me to be a huge positive.

On the downside as Chip and Hank mentioned, it sorta feels like we're at the tail end of an era (probably already past it). I remember the first years I started competing (late 1980s) you needed a high ranking to be able to get into a contest. Today, if you can fog a mirror, we need you.

Same with airports. NJ had 5 active operations when I started (South Jersey, Colt's Neck, Somerset, Blairstown, Forrestal). Today only Blairstown remains.

Now, you kids get off my lawn and let me take my nap...

[Thomas Dixon]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 12:40:12 PM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-5, Chip Bearden wrote:
> > You didn't think my response would be a one-liner, did you? :)
> >
> > Everything already cited:
> > * better trailers (which, with the fiberglass revolution starting in the mid 1960s, made possible near-universal rig-to-fly style vs. hangars, the norm when I was coming up)
> > * GPS (more flexible tasking but goodbye navigation skills as a way to enhance contest points)
> > * availability--at a cost--of competitive sailplanes to the average pilot. Less than a dozen top-ranked, well-heeled, lucky guys got one of Len Neimi's Sisus back in the '60s.
> > * universal availability of really good instrumentation (I used to spend a lot of time tuning my varios/TE with gust filters, restrictors, add/subtracting tubing lengths, capillaries, copper scrubbers in capacity bottles, etc. Now you just plug it all together and configure the software)
> > * greater consistency of manufacture for new gliders (no more hoping you got a good one from the factory)
> > * crewless contests (I recall when Erik Mozer showed up crewless for a Nationals around 1992, IIRC; I was truly shocked! Now I've only had a crew a couple of times since 2006. Hahaha).
> >
> > But the two biggies for me are:
> >
> > 1. Leveling of competitive skills that started with the Byars & Holbrook seminars and continued through Reichmann's book and other publications and programs. The top handful of pilots used to be far better than the rest of the pack. Now they're usually more tightly packed, although leeching (another trend that got much worse) and having comparable sailplanes have contributed to this.
> >
> > 2. Demands on time. There's just so much other stuff going on in our lives that conflicts with soaring: other activities, family, job, etc. Those were always there but when I was a 9-to-5 guy, it was easy to free up the time and I think the same was true for my father. Now many of us are pulled in so many directions.
> >
> > I don't know whether cost, per se, should be on the list. Prices seem astronomical now compared with the old days but compared to income, I don't know. George Moffat used to say, IIRC, that his limit was 1.5x annual salary.
> >
> > One thing I might add but I'm not sure it's universally true is that good sailplanes seems to remain competitive for much longer; i.e., the evolution of "high performance" is much slower. The gliders I think of as enduring in the old days--Standard Austria, Ka-6, Sisu--were only at the top for a few years. Today, the ASW 20 (ca 1976) is still out there, though Sports and Club Class have made that possible in recent years. And many others with long histories: e.g., Discus 2, LS8, ASW 27. But I'm still competing in my ASW 24, designed in ~1986 and purchased in 1992. We always kept gliders a little longer than most anyway but we felt the competition pass us by while doing it. Now it doesn't happen as fast or to the same extent, which is a good thing, IMO.
> >
> > And, finally, a much different set of requirements to manage the technology. In the old days, it helped if you knew how to sand and fill metal wings to keep the gliders competitive. Now it helps to be tech savvy with interfaces, communications protocols, file formats, multiple tech platforms and OSs, etc. Then, as now, you can pay someone to do this and/or lean on your friends. But while the sailplanes themselves are evolving more slowly, keeping up with the technology from an IT perspective is more difficult.
> >
> > Just my brief thoughts. Hahahs. You asked, Roy.
> >
> > Chip Bearden
> > JB
> What Chip said (though I'm MUCH younger than he is :-) )
>
> I think that GPS/recording had so many first order and second order impacts that it overwhelms the other. Whether it is competition tasking or "OLC Flying", the types of flights and ability to really benchmark oneself against others is a huge change. When I first started, I marveled at the descriptions by Striedieck, Seymour, Kai Gertsen about how they went here or dug out there or followed some "convergence" somewhere. Now, you can study every flight (if you're so inclined) and look at exactly what the big boys/girls did. To me that means current generation pilots can become reasonably competitive so much faster if they have the drive rather than having to sort of "learn by making every mistake in the book".
>
> At the end of the day, it's still about pilot decisions more than equipment, so being able to grow the personal knowledge base more quickly seems to me to be a huge positive.
>
> On the downside as Chip and Hank mentioned, it sorta feels like we're at the tail end of an era (probably already past it). I remember the first years I started competing (late 1980s) you needed a high ranking to be able to get into a contest. Today, if you can fog a mirror, we need you.
>
> Same with airports. NJ had 5 active operations when I started (South Jersey, Colt's Neck, Somerset, Blairstown, Forrestal). Today only Blairstown remains.
>
> Now, you kids get off my lawn and let me take my nap...



All of the above comments. Boy do I miss smoking & fixing the barograph. Hoping the cameras workd and the turnpoint photos were good. Opening charts in the cockpit to navigate, following a compass course, Looking at turnpoint task photos to make sure I was at the correct one for a task photo. Can I really trus my "prayer wheel" for the final glide. Yes, Roy B I still have one and it is in my ship to confirm what my CN says. Now it's, will my batteries last, who is my go to IT guy when files crash or instruments need updates. Is that other guy just looking in his cockpit to see all his screens or is he looking out at the other gliders?
Boise, ID

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 2:40:12 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-5, Chip Bearden wrote:
> > You didn't think my response would be a one-liner, did you? :)
> >
> > Everything already cited:
> > * better trailers (which, with the fiberglass revolution starting in the mid 1960s, made possible near-universal rig-to-fly style vs. hangars, the norm when I was coming up)
> > * GPS (more flexible tasking but goodbye navigation skills as a way to enhance contest points)
> > * availability--at a cost--of competitive sailplanes to the average pilot. Less than a dozen top-ranked, well-heeled, lucky guys got one of Len Neimi's Sisus back in the '60s.
> > * universal availability of really good instrumentation (I used to spend a lot of time tuning my varios/TE with gust filters, restrictors, add/subtracting tubing lengths, capillaries, copper scrubbers in capacity bottles, etc. Now you just plug it all together and configure the software)
> > * greater consistency of manufacture for new gliders (no more hoping you got a good one from the factory)
> > * crewless contests (I recall when Erik Mozer showed up crewless for a Nationals around 1992, IIRC; I was truly shocked! Now I've only had a crew a couple of times since 2006. Hahaha).
> >
> > But the two biggies for me are:
> >
> > 1. Leveling of competitive skills that started with the Byars & Holbrook seminars and continued through Reichmann's book and other publications and programs. The top handful of pilots used to be far better than the rest of the pack. Now they're usually more tightly packed, although leeching (another trend that got much worse) and having comparable sailplanes have contributed to this.
> >
> > 2. Demands on time. There's just so much other stuff going on in our lives that conflicts with soaring: other activities, family, job, etc. Those were always there but when I was a 9-to-5 guy, it was easy to free up the time and I think the same was true for my father. Now many of us are pulled in so many directions.
> >
> > I don't know whether cost, per se, should be on the list. Prices seem astronomical now compared with the old days but compared to income, I don't know. George Moffat used to say, IIRC, that his limit was 1.5x annual salary.
> >
> > One thing I might add but I'm not sure it's universally true is that good sailplanes seems to remain competitive for much longer; i.e., the evolution of "high performance" is much slower. The gliders I think of as enduring in the old days--Standard Austria, Ka-6, Sisu--were only at the top for a few years. Today, the ASW 20 (ca 1976) is still out there, though Sports and Club Class have made that possible in recent years. And many others with long histories: e.g., Discus 2, LS8, ASW 27. But I'm still competing in my ASW 24, designed in ~1986 and purchased in 1992. We always kept gliders a little longer than most anyway but we felt the competition pass us by while doing it. Now it doesn't happen as fast or to the same extent, which is a good thing, IMO.
> >
> > And, finally, a much different set of requirements to manage the technology. In the old days, it helped if you knew how to sand and fill metal wings to keep the gliders competitive. Now it helps to be tech savvy with interfaces, communications protocols, file formats, multiple tech platforms and OSs, etc. Then, as now, you can pay someone to do this and/or lean on your friends. But while the sailplanes themselves are evolving more slowly, keeping up with the technology from an IT perspective is more difficult.
> >
> > Just my brief thoughts. Hahahs. You asked, Roy.
> >
> > Chip Bearden
> > JB
>
> What Chip said (though I'm MUCH younger than he is :-) )
>
> I think that GPS/recording had so many first order and second order impacts that it overwhelms the other. Whether it is competition tasking or "OLC Flying", the types of flights and ability to really benchmark oneself against others is a huge change. When I first started, I marveled at the descriptions by Striedieck, Seymour, Kai Gertsen about how they went here or dug out there or followed some "convergence" somewhere. Now, you can study every flight (if you're so inclined) and look at exactly what the big boys/girls did. To me that means current generation pilots can become reasonably competitive so much faster if they have the drive rather than having to sort of "learn by making every mistake in the book".
>
> At the end of the day, it's still about pilot decisions more than equipment, so being able to grow the personal knowledge base more quickly seems to me to be a huge positive.
>
> On the downside as Chip and Hank mentioned, it sorta feels like we're at the tail end of an era (probably already past it). I remember the first years I started competing (late 1980s) you needed a high ranking to be able to get into a contest. Today, if you can fog a mirror, we need you.
>
> Same with airports. NJ had 5 active operations when I started (South Jersey, Colt's Neck, Somerset, Blairstown, Forrestal). Today only Blairstown remains.
>
> Now, you kids get off my lawn and let me take my nap...

Electronics/Technology and mastery of same gaining importance in achieving performance.

[Chip Bearden[_2_]]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 2:32:30 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> Anybody remember what a "prayer wheel" was?
> When did you last see one?
> ROY

I still have one in my cockpit (cardboard, homemade, ca 1978) to check against the nav computer. And I do fairly often, ever since a bug in GNII caused me to land a few miles short at New Castle years ago. The TP in the last cylinder was still miles away and I was over glide path where I was when I said "don't push it" and tapped "turn here" to go home safely. Immediately I was 500' below glide. WTF? Response from the developer was classic: "That shouldn't happen," the second-most dangerous phrase in IT (the #1 being "it SHOULD work"). :)

Anyway, whether it's 5 or 6 miles per thousand or a prayer wheel or whatever, it pays to common sense this stuff. In the old days, that's all we had.

And, yeah, preparing paper maps (which I still do), peering out anxiously at the desolation trying to find Caprock Station at Hobbs or Gabbs at Minden, or wondering how far along the last leg you were gliding into Lancaster, SC over farms and trees, or using Excel in the van to desperately convert a non-functional contest TP file from degree-minutes-seconds to decimal degrees (or vice versa, it was a long time ago) was a hassle.

But as RO says, when you took navigation off the table, it changed the competitive mix. Two good pilots landed out at that Lancaster (nee Chester) contest when they got lost. When GPS came along not long after, it was a great equalizer for them, not so good for me. Oh, well.

The title of this was Old Folks Poll so I figure P3 and I are allowed to complain. LOL

Chip Bearden
JB

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 4:04:03 PM UTC-5, Chip Bearden wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 2:32:30 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> > Anybody remember what a "prayer wheel" was?
> > When did you last see one?
> > ROY
>
> I still have one in my cockpit (cardboard, homemade, ca 1978) to check against the nav computer. And I do fairly often, ever since a bug in GNII caused me to land a few miles short at New Castle years ago. The TP in the last cylinder was still miles away and I was over glide path where I was when I said "don't push it" and tapped "turn here" to go home safely. Immediately I was 500' below glide. WTF? Response from the developer was classic: "That shouldn't happen," the second-most dangerous phrase in IT (the #1 being "it SHOULD work"). :)
>
> Anyway, whether it's 5 or 6 miles per thousand or a prayer wheel or whatever, it pays to common sense this stuff. In the old days, that's all we had..
>
> And, yeah, preparing paper maps (which I still do), peering out anxiously at the desolation trying to find Caprock Station at Hobbs or Gabbs at Minden, or wondering how far along the last leg you were gliding into Lancaster, SC over farms and trees, or using Excel in the van to desperately convert a non-functional contest TP file from degree-minutes-seconds to decimal degrees (or vice versa, it was a long time ago) was a hassle.
>
> But as RO says, when you took navigation off the table, it changed the competitive mix. Two good pilots landed out at that Lancaster (nee Chester) contest when they got lost. When GPS came along not long after, it was a great equalizer for them, not so good for me. Oh, well.
>
> The title of this was Old Folks Poll so I figure P3 and I are allowed to complain. LOL
>
> Chip Bearden
> JB

I last built a prayer wheel (Stocker type calculator, as described in Reichmann's book) when I got my current glider, 10 years ago. I carry it in the cockpit as a backup, but never actually use it.

That project was a marriage of the old tech and the new tech: I wrote some software that, given a polar, create a PDF file with the needed curves. Print it on a transparency (if you can find one!) and add the numbers by hand and you're done. Scaled for the underlying sectional map. If anybody's interested in such, send me the polar and I'll make you the PDF.

I do worry about the lack of navigation skills in the newer pilots (whether young or old), and have spent some time pondering how to teach them to, at least, sanity-check what they think the glide computer is telling them.

[James Metcalfe]

> Anybody remember what a "prayer wheel" was?

I didn't recognise this phrase, at first, but soon worked it out from
context. In the 80s in the UK we knew it as a John Willy - after a well
known coach, John Williamson, who marketed a range of such devices,
calibrated for all sorts of performance of glider.

I think I still have one in my Ventus, but haven't used it in decades as
(ironically, considering today's electronic wizardry) I can monitor the
situation mentally quite well enough.

(I don't know whether "John Willy" has the same alternative connotation
in the US as in the UK?)

James.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion for the guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or more. So, my question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you have seen in the sport over the years you have participated?"
>
> For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS - which changed everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking and badge flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much better than what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be OLC . . .
> What do you think?
>
> ROY

Engines

[Roy B.]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 5:01:04 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> > I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion for the guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or more. So, my question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you have seen in the sport over the years you have participated?"
> >
> > For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS - which changed everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking and badge flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much better than what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be OLC . . ..
> > What do you think?
> >
> > ROY
> Engines

[Roy B.]

In the 80s in the UK we knew it as a John Willy - after a well
known coach, John Williamson, who marketed a range of such devices,
calibrated for all sorts of performance of glider.

My copy of John Delafield's Gliding Competitively (1982) calls it a "JSW Calculator" - for the same reason.
ROY

[Roy B.]

Andrzej may be right about "engines" - and certainly in the next 25 years.
ROY

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> "What is the biggest change you have seen in the sport
> over the years you have participated?"

People didn't use to call us Old Folks.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 4:41:15 AM UTC-8, Roy B. wrote:
> I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion for the guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or more. So, my question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you have seen in the sport over the years you have participated?"
>
> For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS - which changed everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking and badge flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much better than what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be OLC . . .
> What do you think?
>
> ROY

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I have a prayer wheel in my cocpit. Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 11:32:30 AM UTC-8, Roy B. wrote:
> Anybody remember what a "prayer wheel" was?
> When did you last see one?
> ROY

[[email protected]]

> People didn't use to call us Old Folks.

OK, Boomer.

(I'm a Boomer, too.)

[John Sinclair[_5_]]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 2:00:05 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Anybody remember what a "prayer wheel" was?
> I didn't recognise this phrase, at first, but soon worked it out from
> context. In the 80s in the UK we knew it as a John Willy - after a well
> known coach, John Williamson, who marketed a range of such devices,
> calibrated for all sorts of performance of glider.
>
> I think I still have one in my Ventus, but haven't used it in decades as
> (ironically, considering today's electronic wizardry) I can monitor the
> situation mentally quite well enough.
>
> (I don't know whether "John Willy" has the same alternative connotation
> in the US as in the UK?)


I came across my FUGAWE, the other day...............a must before GPS!
JJ


> James.

[Guy Byars[_5_]]

Finish cylinders and turn area tasks... now you don't know who wins until the scores are posted.

Back in the old days the finish gate was pure excitement... pilots calling 1 mile... crews calculating times to see if their pilot was the fastest.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 4:41:15 AM UTC-8, Roy B. wrote:
> I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion for the guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or more. So, my question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you have seen in the sport over the years you have participated?"
>
> For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS - which changed everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking and badge flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much better than what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be OLC . . .
> What do you think?
>
> ROY
Like Les Arnold was in Fremont, the 2-33 was the trainer of choice, complete beginners soloed in 12 flights, Diamonds were rare, fiberglass was only for floating on the water and carbon fiber was not invented.

Bruce Patton 96S
Still flying the HP-18, RV-10 and got a coffee cup from the SSA for 50 years membership

[[email protected]]

Decline of commercial operations. Clubs are the only way to go in many parts.

You could flip the question, what hasn't changed?

Doug
W24

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/3/20 6:36 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> I have a prayer wheel in my cocpit. Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 11:32:30 AM UTC-8, Roy B. wrote:
>> Anybody remember what a "prayer wheel" was?
>> When did you last see one?
>> ROY

I last used a prayer wheel around 30 years ago in my ASW-19b...

--
Dan
5J

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> "What is the biggest change you have seen in the sport over the years you have participated?"

OLC. Despite many flaws, nothing else even comes close.

Tangentially (it's not about the sport per se), the improvement in visibility in the NE USA in last 30 years has made soaring a lot more enjoyable and XC navigation by eyeball much easier. These days, we complain (but not too hard :-)) about haze when the vis is nearly 50 miles. Time was we did a lot of flying when it was barely 3 miles on the ground... and more like 1 mile at altitude.

T8

[Chip Bearden[_2_]]

Not the most significant, and they apply mostly to competition, but:

1. Turnpoint verification: I caught the tail end of "fly to the TP and draw a picture of the white panels set up on the ground by TP team". We took to Instamatic cameras OK around 1970 but the transition to 35 mm was rocky as the first mandate was for clock cameras, the clock feature of which was hardly ever used. Then GPS.

2. Tasking: I also caught the tail end of open-ended distance tasks. I never flew free distance but I did have several "fixed course back to the start and then distance on a leg extending through a point" tasks. Then cat's cradle and variations thereof. Somewhere in there was a brief fling with out-and-return-with-multiple-turnpoint-options, an attempt to prevent losing a day when the only T-storm in the sky parked right over the only TP on the task. That opened the door to POST. Then GPS brought us into the current era of AST, AAT, and MAT tasks. Whenever there's clamoring to go 100% AST, I think back to days when, if only we had picked that TP 10 miles away instead of this TP, we wouldn't have lost the day entirely.

3. Number of classes: The introduction of a Standard Class Nationals was revolutionary compared with run-what-ya-brung "Open Class" where a nationals could have long-wing fiberglass ships flying with everything down to and including the occasional 1-26. 15 Meter followed in 1976 and started to splinter the contest group. Now, I can't keep track of how many classes we have but rest assured that if you don't mind flying a "nationals" with 8 or 9 other pilots, there's a class that's perfect for you.

4. Launch times: I flew a bunch of contests with pilot-selected takeoff. Pilots chose their takeoff times each morning based on our assessment of the weather at approx. 10 AM. When your launch time came, you launched or dropped back to an open slot or the end, regardless of the wx. Yes, I've seen an entire field launched into an overcast sky just because it was time, and no one wanted to take a chance on missing something. Designated launch (a rotating launch order triggered by report from a sniffer) didn't come around until, IIRC, the late 1970s.

5. Start gates: I actually liked the conventional start gate with a high-speed plunge across the 3,300' line but it's definitely less stressful with a higher start cylinder.

6. Finishing: I also like finish lines and low passes but cylinders with floors are a bit less stressful. And less demanding: gone are the days when I spent an hour on the practice day plotting landable fields in the last few miles from every direction in case of a low final glide.

7. Weather forecasts: yeah, forecasters got it right some of the time back then and today's experts sometimes miss, but there's no comparison. QV, P3, FS, and others have a lot more and better data to work with and know how to use it.

8. And, yes, I miss not knowing how you're doing each day until the computer cranks out the actual mileages and speeds. In the old days of ASTs, cameras, and start/finish lines, when you encountered a competitor on course, you usually knew when they started and, hence, whether you had been caught (gloom) or had overtaken him/her (yes!). And I occasionally had the thrill of being greeted by my wife--who, like every good crew, kept a log of all gate times--when I opened the canopy with "and here's a kiss for the winner". Crews often knew before their pilots landed who had fastest time (equivalent to fastest speed back then because we all flew the same course distance).

9. U.S. Team selection: In the past, the Category One pilots ranked each other via a mailed-in ballot to determine the Team. There were consistent rumors of block voting, reciprocity agreements, etc., so everyone seemed happy to move to a strictly numerical-grading selection. Recently that's been tweaked to allow for some subjectivity. Check back in 5-10 years for the latest.

10. I'll get some pushback on this last one but it's my impression that we're less eager/willing to send pilots out on a task with a high probability of landouts. I don't disagree with that, for reasons ranging from lack of crew to the risks to more expensive gliders. But with the exception of days that turn sour part way around the course, I just feel like we spend less time flying in marginal XC conditions, which doubtless has some impact on our team when they arrive at the WGC and are expected to fly unless it's raining heavily.

I also recall the first televised U.S. presidential debate and the days when we all voted on the same day. But despite what 2G says elsewhere, those aren't relevant to soaring. :)

(yawn)
Chip Bearden
JB

[Nigel Pocock[_2_]]

electronics.
My first glider didnt have a battery. No radio, electric vario etc. not
needed. (1978 Olympia 2b)

Camaraderie.
As gliders have got easier to rig, had motors, require less maintenance,
you do not get groups of people gathering to help each other the way
we used. Ahh the joys of a retrieve in a muddy field at 1am

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 12:11:20 PM UTC-8, Thomas Dixon wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 12:40:12 PM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-5, Chip Bearden wrote:
> > > You didn't think my response would be a one-liner, did you? :)
> > >
> > > Everything already cited:
> > > * better trailers (which, with the fiberglass revolution starting in the mid 1960s, made possible near-universal rig-to-fly style vs. hangars, the norm when I was coming up)
> > > * GPS (more flexible tasking but goodbye navigation skills as a way to enhance contest points)
> > > * availability--at a cost--of competitive sailplanes to the average pilot. Less than a dozen top-ranked, well-heeled, lucky guys got one of Len Neimi's Sisus back in the '60s.
> > > * universal availability of really good instrumentation (I used to spend a lot of time tuning my varios/TE with gust filters, restrictors, add/subtracting tubing lengths, capillaries, copper scrubbers in capacity bottles, etc. Now you just plug it all together and configure the software)
> > > * greater consistency of manufacture for new gliders (no more hoping you got a good one from the factory)
> > > * crewless contests (I recall when Erik Mozer showed up crewless for a Nationals around 1992, IIRC; I was truly shocked! Now I've only had a crew a couple of times since 2006. Hahaha).
> > >
> > > But the two biggies for me are:
> > >
> > > 1. Leveling of competitive skills that started with the Byars & Holbrook seminars and continued through Reichmann's book and other publications and programs. The top handful of pilots used to be far better than the rest of the pack. Now they're usually more tightly packed, although leeching (another trend that got much worse) and having comparable sailplanes have contributed to this.
> > >
> > > 2. Demands on time. There's just so much other stuff going on in our lives that conflicts with soaring: other activities, family, job, etc. Those were always there but when I was a 9-to-5 guy, it was easy to free up the time and I think the same was true for my father. Now many of us are pulled in so many directions.
> > >
> > > I don't know whether cost, per se, should be on the list. Prices seem astronomical now compared with the old days but compared to income, I don't know. George Moffat used to say, IIRC, that his limit was 1.5x annual salary.
> > >
> > > One thing I might add but I'm not sure it's universally true is that good sailplanes seems to remain competitive for much longer; i.e., the evolution of "high performance" is much slower. The gliders I think of as enduring in the old days--Standard Austria, Ka-6, Sisu--were only at the top for a few years. Today, the ASW 20 (ca 1976) is still out there, though Sports and Club Class have made that possible in recent years. And many others with long histories: e.g., Discus 2, LS8, ASW 27. But I'm still competing in my ASW 24, designed in ~1986 and purchased in 1992. We always kept gliders a little longer than most anyway but we felt the competition pass us by while doing it. Now it doesn't happen as fast or to the same extent, which is a good thing, IMO.
> > >
> > > And, finally, a much different set of requirements to manage the technology. In the old days, it helped if you knew how to sand and fill metal wings to keep the gliders competitive. Now it helps to be tech savvy with interfaces, communications protocols, file formats, multiple tech platforms and OSs, etc. Then, as now, you can pay someone to do this and/or lean on your friends. But while the sailplanes themselves are evolving more slowly, keeping up with the technology from an IT perspective is more difficult.
> > >
> > > Just my brief thoughts. Hahahs. You asked, Roy.
> > >
> > > Chip Bearden
> > > JB
> > What Chip said (though I'm MUCH younger than he is :-) )
> >
> > I think that GPS/recording had so many first order and second order impacts that it overwhelms the other. Whether it is competition tasking or "OLC Flying", the types of flights and ability to really benchmark oneself against others is a huge change. When I first started, I marveled at the descriptions by Striedieck, Seymour, Kai Gertsen about how they went here or dug out there or followed some "convergence" somewhere. Now, you can study every flight (if you're so inclined) and look at exactly what the big boys/girls did. To me that means current generation pilots can become reasonably competitive so much faster if they have the drive rather than having to sort of "learn by making every mistake in the book".
> >
> > At the end of the day, it's still about pilot decisions more than equipment, so being able to grow the personal knowledge base more quickly seems to me to be a huge positive.
> >
> > On the downside as Chip and Hank mentioned, it sorta feels like we're at the tail end of an era (probably already past it). I remember the first years I started competing (late 1980s) you needed a high ranking to be able to get into a contest. Today, if you can fog a mirror, we need you.
> >
> > Same with airports. NJ had 5 active operations when I started (South Jersey, Colt's Neck, Somerset, Blairstown, Forrestal). Today only Blairstown remains.
> >
> > Now, you kids get off my lawn and let me take my nap...
> All of the above comments. Boy do I miss smoking & fixing the barograph. Hoping the cameras workd and the turnpoint photos were good. Opening charts in the cockpit to navigate, following a compass course, Looking at turnpoint task photos to make sure I was at the correct one for a task photo. Can I really trus my "prayer wheel" for the final glide. Yes, Roy B I still have one and it is in my ship to confirm what my CN says. Now it's, will my batteries last, who is my go to IT guy when files crash or instruments need updates. Is that other guy just looking in his cockpit to see all his screens or is he looking out at the other gliders?
> Boise, ID
Only 45+ years.....

The revolution in cockpit electronics (flight & navigation computers, FDRs); much of what else has changed since is a direct fallout (my first glider(s) needed a battery only to run the radio).

The advent of accurate internet weather forecasting has changed the social aspect. We used to head to the gliderport every Saturday no matter what and either fly or hangar fly. Now everyone checks weather and if it looks unsoarable, no one shows up.

[Chip Bearden[_2_]]

> 7. Weather forecasts: yeah, forecasters got it right some of the time back then and today's experts sometimes miss, but there's no comparison. QV, P3, FS, and others have a lot more and better data to work with and know how to use it.

Didn't mean to slight any of the other excellent weather experts who support our contests. Another one who comes to mind is WX who, like the rest of these bozos, cranks out good forecasts and then flies the tasks at a high rate of speed and makes me look bad. :)

In the old days, the weatherman made an appearance in the morning and then--as it became evident that the actual conditions most closely resembled the forecast only in the day, date, and time of sunset--disappeared to craft his excuses until reappearing the following morning.

Chip Bearden
JB

[2G]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 4:41:15 AM UTC-8, Roy B. wrote:
> I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion for the guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or more. So, my question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you have seen in the sport over the years you have participated?"
>
> For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS - which changed everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking and badge flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much better than what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be OLC . . .
> What do you think?
>
> ROY

OLC wouldn't have been possible without:
1. The Internet and
2. GPS
The most life-altering tech advancement in my life has been the Internet, hands down. The other most glider-specific advancement has been modern motorgliders.

Tom

[andy l]

On Wednesday, 4 November 2020 at 21:57:24 UTC, Chip Bearden wrote:
> In the old days, the weatherman made an appearance in the morning and then--as it became evident that the actual conditions most closely resembled the forecast only in the day, date, and time of sunset--disappeared to craft his excuses until reappearing the following morning.
>
> Chip Bearden
> JB

That didn't happen in any of our competitions, or in internationals I've been to.

The briefings at one club are held in what we call a blister hangar, a temporary then permanent construction clad with sheets of curved corrugated steel.

One day years ago the met man was telling us about showers, with occasional very heavy ...

The rest of the sentence was drowned out by the sound of hailstones hitting the roof exactly on cue.

[David Salmon[_3_]]

Only just seen this thread. I've been gliding twice the 25 years, and would
agree with lots of the comments, glass, gps, etc. I'm not sure about cost
of gliders though. I can only talk about the UK, in my early days a decent
glider would cost roughly the same as the average house, now they are much
cheaper.
Perhaps the biggest change here though is the proliferation of Controlled
Airspace, reducing where we can fly on this little island.
Dave



At 12:41 03 November 2020, Roy B. wrote:
>I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion for
>t=
>he guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or more. So,
>my=
> question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you have seen
>i=
>n the sport over the years you have participated?"
>
>For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS - which
>chan=
>ged everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking and
badge
>=
>flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much better
>th=
>an what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be OLC . . .
>What do you think?
>
>ROY
>

[Justin Craig[_3_]]

The introduction of the fun police!

[Go Soaring]

At 13:51 05 November 2020, Justin Craig wrote:
>The introduction of the fun police!
>
And pointless "check flights"

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 10:35:37 PM UTC-5, andy l wrote:
> On Wednesday, 4 November 2020 at 21:57:24 UTC, Chip Bearden wrote:
> > In the old days, the weatherman made an appearance in the morning and then--as it became evident that the actual conditions most closely resembled the forecast only in the day, date, and time of sunset--disappeared to craft his excuses until reappearing the following morning.
> >
> > Chip Bearden
> > JB
> That didn't happen in any of our competitions, or in internationals I've been to.
>
> The briefings at one club are held in what we call a blister hangar, a temporary then permanent construction clad with sheets of curved corrugated steel.
>
> One day years ago the met man was telling us about showers, with occasional very heavy ...
>
> The rest of the sentence was drowned out by the sound of hailstones hitting the roof exactly on cue.

I fondly remember camping at early contests in my career (remember camping.... in tents?) and being awakened by the sound of a towplane heading up to do the local sounding. That worked fine for relatively benign days such as the beginning of a period of high-pressure dominated Wx, but it often failed miserably on pre/post frontal days and other dynamic situations. The easy availability of predictive models followed by the emergence of multiple presentation platforms (DrJack, Skysight, TopMeteo, etc.) now means that pretty much every pilot is also the Weather Guy.

[Phil Jeffery[_2_]]

At 12:41 03 November 2020, Roy B. wrote:
>I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion for
>t=
>he guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or more.
So,
>my=
> question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you have
seen
>i=
>n the sport over the years you have participated?"
>
>For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS -
which
>chan=
>ged everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking and
badge
>=
>flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much
better
>th=
>an what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be OLC . .

[Roy B.]

On Thursday, November 5, 2020 at 12:45:06 PM UTC-5, Phil Jeffery wrote:

Phil:
Did you expire in the middle of your post?
We hope not
ROY

[Phil Jeffery[_2_]]

At 14:32 07 November 2020, Roy B. wrote:
>On Thursday, November 5, 2020 at 12:45:06 PM UTC-5, Phil Jeffery
wrote:
>
>Phil:
>Did you expire in the middle of your post?
>We hope not
>ROY
>

Not quite yet Roy, thanks for your concern.
For some reason ras cut off my post. Presumably it offended someone, I'm
very used to that!
I was complementing your choice of subject and bemoaning now getting
competitively dicked by grandchildren of pilots I flew with in the 1950s
and
1960s.
Phil

[John Galloway[_2_]]

On Saturday, 7 November 2020 at 17:30:07 UTC, Phil Jeffery wrote:
> At 14:32 07 November 2020, Roy B. wrote:
> >On Thursday, November 5, 2020 at 12:45:06 PM UTC-5, Phil Jeffery
> wrote:
> >
> >Phil:
> >Did you expire in the middle of your post?
> >We hope not
> >ROY
> >
> Not quite yet Roy, thanks for your concern.
> For some reason ras cut off my post. Presumably it offended someone, I'm
> very used to that!
> I was complementing your choice of subject and bemoaning now getting
> competitively dicked by grandchildren of pilots I flew with in the 1950s
> and
> 1960s.
> Phil

For me, the relentlessly increasing time and effort involved in getting out of the cockpit with a chute on.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

John Galloway wrote on 11/7/2020 10:16 AM:
> On Saturday, 7 November 2020 at 17:30:07 UTC, Phil Jeffery wrote:
>> At 14:32 07 November 2020, Roy B. wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 5, 2020 at 12:45:06 PM UTC-5, Phil Jeffery
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Phil:
>>> Did you expire in the middle of your post?
>>> We hope not
>>> ROY
>>>
>> Not quite yet Roy, thanks for your concern.
>> For some reason ras cut off my post. Presumably it offended someone, I'm
>> very used to that!
>> I was complementing your choice of subject and bemoaning now getting
>> competitively dicked by grandchildren of pilots I flew with in the 1950s
>> and
>> 1960s.
>> Phil
>
> For me, the relentlessly increasing time and effort involved in getting out of the cockpit with a chute on.

More exercise, or a glider with BRS (that's my solution), so you don't need a parachute. Or an
inner-tube sort of thing to sit on, that can be inflated to raise you 6" or so.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[john firth]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 10:41:15 AM UTC-2, Roy B. wrote:
> I thought it might be fun (and healthy) to start a poll or discussion for the guys and gals who have been in the sport for + 25 years or more. So, my question for those people is : "What is the biggest change you have seen in the sport over the years you have participated?"
>
> For me, the biggest change was the widespread adoption of GPS - which changed everything about flight recording, contests, contest tasking and badge flying. Second place goes to the newer trailers which are so much better than what we struggled with in the old days. Third place might be OLC . . .
> What do you think?
>
> ROY

Yes, I still have a self made prayer wheel, which was quite reliable in the Kestrel; it also had a map section on the back overlaid with spirals of altitude
needed with glide ratios around the periphery.
What has changed? GPS was major change.
What I did not miss ( as a competition pilot no longer) is FREE DISTANCE with the seemingly inevitable overnight costly retrieve. This was a mandatory task for years in US and Cdn rules, a cop-out for task setters when they were faced
with uncertain weather; those I remember Adrian '65, Regina '66, Marfa '67
(360 miles), Red Deer '69, Yugoslavia '72, all over 400km, many times more than the task setters said would be possible; maybe they were fun for the pilot but the distance for a mandatory rest day , (sometimes two days) was always exceeded, which spoiled the contest and cost a lot of money, some accidents and repairs, and proved very little , except that top
pilots can go a long way downwind in uncertain conditions.
John Firth

[Roy B.]

I was thinking about one thing that remarkably hasn't changed: 47 years ago I soloed in a glider being towed by a Cessna L-19. This weekend past I was training towpilots in a Cessna L-19. Who would have imagined that tow planes would stay essentially the same for 50 years?
ROY

[[email protected]]

On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 8:56:33 AM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> I was thinking about one thing that remarkably hasn't changed: 47 years ago I soloed in a glider being towed by a Cessna L-19. This weekend past I was training towpilots in a Cessna L-19. Who would have imagined that tow planes would stay essentially the same for 50 years?
> ROY

We still tow with the Super Cub we bought in 1977. Over 40,000 tows on it. On it's second engine. Got our money out of that $8000 buy.
UH

[Ian Molesworth]

1970's to now.

LD - 30 to 50+
GPS and Instrumentation has been a massive change and the last 10 years especially so.
Turbo's and self launchers

Cost. With the cost of a new supership outstripping the cost of a house in many parts of the world one has to wonder how much longer we can go on.

[Roy B.]

Ian, when you adjust for cost of living increase and inflation I'm not sure it's that dramatic a change. I have a memory back in 1975 of being shocked when the late Doug Gaines was advertising his then new ASW-17 for sale at $45,000 USD. I bought my first "starter" house that year (in Worcester Massachusetts) for $28,000 USD.

It's interesting that nobody has mentioned simulation based training (maybe because we dinosaurs aren't familiar with it). This past season I trained my first student who had studied extensively on the "Condor" simulator and he managed to solo the "real" ASK 21 in 20 lessons, which I thought was better than the progress I usually see. I wonder what this means for the future of training in the sport.
ROY

[John Sinclair[_5_]]

On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 4:39:42 AM UTC-8, Roy B. wrote:
> Ian, when you adjust for cost of living increase and inflation I'm not sure it's that dramatic a change. I have a memory back in 1975 of being shocked when the late Doug Gaines was advertising his then new ASW-17 for sale at $45,000 USD. I bought my first "starter" house that year (in Worcester Massachusetts) for $28,000 USD.
>
> It's interesting that nobody has mentioned simulation based training (maybe because we dinosaurs aren't familiar with it). This past season I trained my first student who had studied extensively on the "Condor" simulator and he managed to solo the "real" ASK 21 in 20 lessons, which I thought was better than the progress I usually see. I wonder what this means for the future of training in the sport.
> ROY

Home built gliders have all but disappeared! In the 70’s we had Cherokee’s, BG-12’s, Dusters and HP-11 & 14’s in our local flying clubs. I built my Duster sailplane from a kit...........$2800 bucks! We had 5 Dusters in a local handicapped contest. In those days it was believed that a new factory built sailplane would cost about the same as a new car, now days that will get you a 30 year old bird that probably needs refinishing!

GPS has made a world of difference in my flying, before GPS, I would spend half my time figuring out where I was...........don’t know how much altitude you need, if you don’t know exactly where you are!!!
JJ

[Roy B.]

On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 2:37:33 PM UTC-5, John Sinclair wrote:
> On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 4:39:42 AM UTC-8, Roy B. wrote:
> > Ian, when you adjust for cost of living increase and inflation I'm not sure it's that dramatic a change. I have a memory back in 1975 of being shocked when the late Doug Gaines was advertising his then new ASW-17 for sale at $45,000 USD. I bought my first "starter" house that year (in Worcester Massachusetts) for $28,000 USD.
> >
> > It's interesting that nobody has mentioned simulation based training (maybe because we dinosaurs aren't familiar with it). This past season I trained my first student who had studied extensively on the "Condor" simulator and he managed to solo the "real" ASK 21 in 20 lessons, which I thought was better than the progress I usually see. I wonder what this means for the future of training in the sport.
> > ROY
> Home built gliders have all but disappeared! In the 70’s we had Cherokee’s, BG-12’s, Dusters and HP-11 & 14’s in our local flying clubs. I built my Duster sailplane from a kit...........$2800 bucks! We had 5 Dusters in a local handicapped contest. In those days it was believed that a new factory built sailplane would cost about the same as a new car, now days that will get you a 30 year old bird that probably needs refinishing!
>
> GPS has made a world of difference in my flying, before GPS, I would spend half my time figuring out where I was...........don’t know how much altitude you need, if you don’t know exactly where you are!!!
> JJ

[Roy B.]

JJ
The homebuilts & one-of a kinds have also disappeared from the national competition scene. I crewed at the '75 Open Class Nationals in Hobbs and in addition to the factory built gliders (Nimbus2s, ASW-12s & 17s & 604s) there was the Applebay Mescalero, the Chase 101, the Schuman Libelle, Klaus Keim's BSK, and DB had the prototype 604 with more water capacity than we had ever seen in anything. Except for Concordia, that's all gone now.
ROY

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 5:39:42 AM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> Ian, when you adjust for cost of living increase and inflation I'm not sure it's that dramatic a change. I have a memory back in 1975 of being shocked when the late Doug Gaines was advertising his then new ASW-17 for sale at $45,000 USD. I bought my first "starter" house that year (in Worcester Massachusetts) for $28,000 USD.
>
> It's interesting that nobody has mentioned simulation based training (maybe because we dinosaurs aren't familiar with it). This past season I trained my first student who had studied extensively on the "Condor" simulator and he managed to solo the "real" ASK 21 in 20 lessons, which I thought was better than the progress I usually see. I wonder what this means for the future of training in the sport.
> ROY
Was he studying a simulator syllabus from one of the sources, or just self-studying. Would he have done better if he'd worked on Condor with an instructor.

Frank Whiteley

[Chip Bearden[_2_]]

On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 3:00:45 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> JJ
> The homebuilts & one-of a kinds have also disappeared from the national competition scene. I crewed at the '75 Open Class Nationals in Hobbs and in addition to the factory built gliders (Nimbus2s, ASW-12s & 17s & 604s) there was the Applebay Mescalero, the Chase 101, the Schuman Libelle, Klaus Keim's BSK, and DB had the prototype 604 with more water capacity than we had ever seen in anything. Except for Concordia, that's all gone now.
> ROY

Many of those one-of-a-kinds were production gliders that the owners modified to tune them up or enhance them. If you were serious, you had to. The gliders coming out of the factory lacked control surface and other seals, fairings, and sometimes even symmetrical (left to right) airfoils and angles of incidence. Some benefited from wingtip extensions (Open Cirrus, Nimbus 3), others from radical changes to the wing (AJ Smith's and Wil Schuemann's ASW 12s). "Blueprinting" a glider, sealing it, contouring the wings, adding exit air ports, etc., was just part of the game. Listen to a few of the sessions at the old Byars & Holbrook sessions in the 1960s for more.

Today mostly what I see is pilots paying increasing sums of cash to upgrade their instruments and avionics, trying to get all the components talking to each other, and praying that nothing goes wrong at a contest because it can be very difficult to decipher the one little configuration setting or loose cable or communications protocol gone bad. Dick Schreder won a day at the 1966 Reno Open Nationals (where he was the overall winner) using an ancient (even then) Pioneer rate-of-climb instrument as his vario. And as JJ notes, we were still using sectional charts and compasses then for navigation.. We've made a lot of progress, and it's certainly less stressful to navigate than before, but sometimes I find myself wishing we could have a good old "low tech" contest where all the gadgets have to come out. A lot of the top names would still be on top but I suspect the standings would be reshuffled in the layer below them. :)

Chip Bearden
JB

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 5:48:02 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 3:00:45 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> > JJ
> > The homebuilts & one-of a kinds have also disappeared from the national competition scene. I crewed at the '75 Open Class Nationals in Hobbs and in addition to the factory built gliders (Nimbus2s, ASW-12s & 17s & 604s) there was the Applebay Mescalero, the Chase 101, the Schuman Libelle, Klaus Keim's BSK, and DB had the prototype 604 with more water capacity than we had ever seen in anything. Except for Concordia, that's all gone now.
> > ROY
> Many of those one-of-a-kinds were production gliders that the owners modified to tune them up or enhance them. If you were serious, you had to. The gliders coming out of the factory lacked control surface and other seals, fairings, and sometimes even symmetrical (left to right) airfoils and angles of incidence. Some benefited from wingtip extensions (Open Cirrus, Nimbus 3), others from radical changes to the wing (AJ Smith's and Wil Schuemann's ASW 12s). "Blueprinting" a glider, sealing it, contouring the wings, adding exit air ports, etc., was just part of the game. Listen to a few of the sessions at the old Byars & Holbrook sessions in the 1960s for more.
>
> Today mostly what I see is pilots paying increasing sums of cash to upgrade their instruments and avionics, trying to get all the components talking to each other, and praying that nothing goes wrong at a contest because it can be very difficult to decipher the one little configuration setting or loose cable or communications protocol gone bad. Dick Schreder won a day at the 1966 Reno Open Nationals (where he was the overall winner) using an ancient (even then) Pioneer rate-of-climb instrument as his vario. And as JJ notes, we were still using sectional charts and compasses then for navigation. We've made a lot of progress, and it's certainly less stressful to navigate than before, but sometimes I find myself wishing we could have a good old "low tech" contest where all the gadgets have to come out. A lot of the top names would still be on top but I suspect the standings would be reshuffled in the layer below them. :)
>
> Chip Bearden
> JB

How about flying the 1-26 Nats? Still pretty even in aircraft, whizzy stuff does not overwhelm the pilot ranking...
;-)

[WaltWX[_2_]]

Thanks for the mention Chip... Now, I agree with all your assessments of the Olds Folks. Walt WX

[WaltWX[_2_]]

On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 11:04:44 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> > For me, the relentlessly increasing time and effort involved in getting out of the cockpit with a chute on.
> More exercise, or a glider with BRS (that's my solution), so you don't need a parachute. Or an
> inner-tube sort of thing to sit on, that can be inflated to raise you 6" or so.

Physical endurance for me... to rig, prep, move the glider and de-rig. Bending over rapidly during de-rigs and being de-hydrated at the end of the day browned me out occasionally. At TSA 2018 Std Nats while yanking on a 200ft water hose rushing to fill the water ballast, I tore my rotator cuff. Didn't know it at the time. Found it difficult to lift myself out of the cockpit after that. The annoying ache was finally diagnosed in Nov, repaired in Jan... and knocked me out of half the 2019 season. Covid took me out of the 2020 season.

I'm fine in the air, flying a contest... beating JB Chip B :) Thanks again for the complement on my forecasts, Chip

Walt WX

[Patrick (LS6-b EH)]

Don't identify as an old folks, but:
1. Accessible technology (i.e. XCsoar)
2. Incredible forecasting (i.e. Dr Jack... Skysight)
3. Ability to share our story (Facebook, Instagram, Skylines.aero...)
4. Proving Grounds (soaringtasks.com) ;)