PowerFlarm offers new Version, PowerFlarm Fusion Includes Many newstandard Features!

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:

• Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
• FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
• GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
• Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
• Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
• Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
• Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core


For complete details see:

http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm

Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 5:55:37 PM UTC-5, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
>
> • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
>
>
> For complete details see:
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>
> Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Is it FCC approved? Does the transmitted power stay at 0.018w?

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 3:12:51 PM UTC-8, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 5:55:37 PM UTC-5, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> >
> > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> >
> >
> > For complete details see:
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> >
> > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> Is it FCC approved? Does the transmitted power stay at 0.018w?

FCC yes

Current consumption (no external consumers)200 mA @ 12 V DC (Peak)180 mA @ 12 V DC (Typical)

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Ron Gleason]

On Friday, 6 November 2020 15:55:37 UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
>
> • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
>
>
> For complete details see:
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>
> Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

THanks Richard, as usual you are out ahead getting useful and useable information to the pilot community. Looks like a great unit with very useful features!

Ron Gleason

[Paul Remde]

Actually, FCC approval has not been received yet. It is in the works, and will hopefully go through, but it is not a foregone conclusion and may take a while.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
_____________________________________

On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 5:12:51 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 5:55:37 PM UTC-5, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> >
> > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> >
> >
> > For complete details see:
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> >
> > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
> Is it FCC approved? Does the transmitted power stay at 0.018w?

[Doug Levy]

On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 8:19:45 AM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
> Actually, FCC approval has not been received yet. It is in the works, and will hopefully go through, but it is not a foregone conclusion and may take a while.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> _____________________________________
> On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 5:12:51 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
> > On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 5:55:37 PM UTC-5, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> > >
> > > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> > >
> > >
> > > For complete details see:
> > >
> > > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> > >
> > > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> > Is it FCC approved? Does the transmitted power stay at 0.018w?

[Doug Levy]

On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
>
> • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
>
>
> For complete details see:
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>
> Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com
Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.

[Per Givskov]

lørdag den 7. november 2020 kl. 18.02.53 UTC+1 skrev Doug Levy:
> On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> >
> > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> >
> >
> > For complete details see:
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> >
> > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
> Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.

Still not fully IGC approved. What a bummer. What's the story, why they lost it and issue a new product without it?

[George Haeh]

Hopefully FCC will allow transmit on both antennas, which would be really helpful for carbon fiber gliders and towplanes.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 1:18:40 PM UTC-5, Per Givskov wrote:
> lørdag den 7. november 2020 kl. 18.02.53 UTC+1 skrev Doug Levy:
> > On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> > >
> > > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> > >
> > >
> > > For complete details see:
> > >
> > > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> > >
> > > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> > Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.
>
> Still not fully IGC approved. What a bummer. What's the story, why they lost it and issue a new product without it?

IGC approval document is on the GFAC website. http://www.ukiws.uk/GFAC/index.htm

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Levy wrote:
> On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> >
> > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> >
> >
> > For complete details see:
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> >
> > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
> Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.

Doug, what is a large percentage in your opinion? Total number of positions in the last 30 days on 1090 Mhz equals 40,278,138,192 and on UAT 6,000,664.. Let's divide the first number by 100 to assume that most of those positions are at higher altitude and only 1% at altitude relevant to us. So it is 6,000,664/402,781,381 * 100 = 1.489%
As you see you are not missing much, unless you are in a special place near a large flight school that decided to install UATs. I don't see many UAT aircraft in the North East, but I agree it would be nice to have support for UAT.

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

Good price point. Some questions;

- The comment about "Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on". It appears that the PowerFLARM Fusion's A/B/ADS-B(1090) antenna connections are identical to the older PowerFLARM Core. Correct? Only the GPS antenna has changed (screw-in versus push-in)?
- Are the antenna connections identical between the PowerFLARM line and the LXNav PowerMouse?
- The comment about "Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core". What does this mean? Just "move the cables" and its plug and play? Configuration too? Or is there a trade-in discount program which to me is much more hassel-free? ;-)
- Are the mounting holes identical between the Fusion and the Core?
- The overall dimensions are identical between the new Fusion and the older Core. However, the LXNAV FLARM PowerMouse is 25%-40% smaller dimensionally and is 68% smaller in volume. Important considerations?

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 8:10:28 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Levy wrote:
> > On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> > >
> > > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> > >
> > >
> > > For complete details see:
> > >
> > > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> > >
> > > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> > Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.
> Doug, what is a large percentage in your opinion? Total number of positions in the last 30 days on 1090 Mhz equals 40,278,138,192 and on UAT 6,000,664. Let's divide the first number by 100 to assume that most of those positions are at higher altitude and only 1% at altitude relevant to us. So it is 6,000,664/402,781,381 * 100 = 1.489%
> As you see you are not missing much, unless you are in a special place near a large flight school that decided to install UATs. I don't see many UAT aircraft in the North East, but I agree it would be nice to have support for UAT.
Where are you getting these statistics? I have a FlightAware ADS-B receiver at my cabin in Western WI. About 25% of the GA aircraft that fly over my cabin do not show up on my ADS-B receiver, which is 1090ES only. I suspect that most of these aircraft are UAT equipped.

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 4:55:37 PM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
>
> • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
>
>
> For complete details see:
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>
> Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com
Does PowerFlarm Fusion support TIS-B?

[Doug Levy]

On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 6:10:28 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Levy wrote:
> > On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> > >
> > > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> > >
> > >
> > > For complete details see:
> > >
> > > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> > >
> > > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> > Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.
> Doug, what is a large percentage in your opinion? Total number of positions in the last 30 days on 1090 Mhz equals 40,278,138,192 and on UAT 6,000,664. Let's divide the first number by 100 to assume that most of those positions are at higher altitude and only 1% at altitude relevant to us. So it is 6,000,664/402,781,381 * 100 = 1.489%
> As you see you are not missing much, unless you are in a special place near a large flight school that decided to install UATs. I don't see many UAT aircraft in the North East, but I agree it would be nice to have support for UAT.

I'm flying a motor glider out of an airport that has about 200 operations per day. At first, I had a transponder with 1090 ADS-B out ( a Trig setup). I also had a Flarm for seeing traffic. I watched many flights take off and did not see all of them on my Flarm display. I talked to the other pilots in the hangars nearby. Most had Garmin transponder with Garmin ADS-B out. They are all using 978 out. They have not heard of Flarm and of course, their ADS-B in equipment doesn't see Flarm.
ADS-B on 978 is only used in the USA. I would hope that Flarm would have included it with the latest improvements for everyone's safety. I don't believe it is a small number of aircraft, but I couldn't find any numbers to know how many. Garmin is very popular and there are reasons they choose 978.. If you do your research you will see the advantages.
I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver. These devices output the trafic information by WiFi. I have an Ipad running Foreflight software that I can highly recommend. This can be done with an I-phone too. I know panel space can be small. I hope that some of the modern flight computers add software that can recieve the information from these ADS-b dual band receivers.

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 11:32:11 PM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 4:55:37 PM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> >
> > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> >
> >
> > For complete details see:
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> >
> > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
> Does PowerFlarm Fusion support TIS-B?
Also, does PowerFLARM Fusion support ADS-R?

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 12:30:46 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 8:10:28 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Levy wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> > > >
> > > > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > > > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > > > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > > > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > > > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > > > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > > > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > For complete details see:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> > > >
> > > > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> > > >
> > > > Richard
> > > > www.craggyaero.com
> > > Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.
> > Doug, what is a large percentage in your opinion? Total number of positions in the last 30 days on 1090 Mhz equals 40,278,138,192 and on UAT 6,000,664. Let's divide the first number by 100 to assume that most of those positions are at higher altitude and only 1% at altitude relevant to us. So it is 6,000,664/402,781,381 * 100 = 1.489%
> > As you see you are not missing much, unless you are in a special place near a large flight school that decided to install UATs. I don't see many UAT aircraft in the North East, but I agree it would be nice to have support for UAT.
> Where are you getting these statistics? I have a FlightAware ADS-B receiver at my cabin in Western WI. About 25% of the GA aircraft that fly over my cabin do not show up on my ADS-B receiver, which is 1090ES only. I suspect that most of these aircraft are UAT equipped.

Flightaware.com

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 8:00:34 AM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 12:30:46 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 8:10:28 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Levy wrote:
> > > > On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > > > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> > > > >
> > > > > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > > > > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > > > > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > > > > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > > > > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > > > > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > > > > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > For complete details see:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard
> > > > > www.craggyaero.com
> > > > Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.
> > > Doug, what is a large percentage in your opinion? Total number of positions in the last 30 days on 1090 Mhz equals 40,278,138,192 and on UAT 6,000,664. Let's divide the first number by 100 to assume that most of those positions are at higher altitude and only 1% at altitude relevant to us. So it is 6,000,664/402,781,381 * 100 = 1.489%
> > > As you see you are not missing much, unless you are in a special place near a large flight school that decided to install UATs. I don't see many UAT aircraft in the North East, but I agree it would be nice to have support for UAT.
> > Where are you getting these statistics? I have a FlightAware ADS-B receiver at my cabin in Western WI. About 25% of the GA aircraft that fly over my cabin do not show up on my ADS-B receiver, which is 1090ES only. I suspect that most of these aircraft are UAT equipped.
>
> Flightaware.com

To be more precise FlightAware ADS-B Statistics https://flightaware.com/adsb/stats/
Select top countries and the first entry is USA with the data I gave you.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 1:52:32 PM UTC-5, George Haeh wrote:
> Hopefully FCC will allow transmit on both antennas, which would be really helpful for carbon fiber gliders and towplanes.

Agree strongly.

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 7:03:09 AM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 8:00:34 AM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 12:30:46 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 8:10:28 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Levy wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > > > > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > > > > > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > > > > > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > > > > > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > > > > > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > > > > > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > > > > > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For complete details see:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Richard
> > > > > > www.craggyaero.com
> > > > > Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.
> > > > Doug, what is a large percentage in your opinion? Total number of positions in the last 30 days on 1090 Mhz equals 40,278,138,192 and on UAT 6,000,664. Let's divide the first number by 100 to assume that most of those positions are at higher altitude and only 1% at altitude relevant to us. So it is 6,000,664/402,781,381 * 100 = 1.489%
> > > > As you see you are not missing much, unless you are in a special place near a large flight school that decided to install UATs. I don't see many UAT aircraft in the North East, but I agree it would be nice to have support for UAT.
> > > Where are you getting these statistics? I have a FlightAware ADS-B receiver at my cabin in Western WI. About 25% of the GA aircraft that fly over my cabin do not show up on my ADS-B receiver, which is 1090ES only. I suspect that most of these aircraft are UAT equipped.
> >
> > Flightaware.com
> To be more precise FlightAware ADS-B Statistics https://flightaware.com/adsb/stats/
> Select top countries and the first entry is USA with the data I gave you.
That is totally misleading. What you are looking at is the number of aircraft seen by FlightAware. There are almost no FlightAware receivers in the US that are configured to receive UAT ADS-B OUT transmissions. The VAST majority of FlightAware receivers are 1090ES only.

The only reliable way to determine the 1090ES vs UAT equipage is to get this data from the FAA. They have all of this data, given that everyone equipped with ADS-B has to run an ADS-B performance report, which requires the pilot to identify not only what frequency the ADS-B OUT is on, but also the manufacturer of the ADS-B transmitter and GPS source.

When you look at the low cost UAT ADS-B options available from Garmin, uAvionix, and others, I would be willing to wager that a very significant proportion of the GA fleet is UAT equipped.

[Doug Levy]

On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 9:34:34 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 7:03:09 AM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 8:00:34 AM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 12:30:46 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 8:10:28 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Levy wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > > > > > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > > > > > > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > > > > > > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > > > > > > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > > > > > > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > > > > > > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > > > > > > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For complete details see:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Richard
> > > > > > > www.craggyaero.com
> > > > > > Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.
> > > > > Doug, what is a large percentage in your opinion? Total number of positions in the last 30 days on 1090 Mhz equals 40,278,138,192 and on UAT 6,000,664. Let's divide the first number by 100 to assume that most of those positions are at higher altitude and only 1% at altitude relevant to us. So it is 6,000,664/402,781,381 * 100 = 1.489%
> > > > > As you see you are not missing much, unless you are in a special place near a large flight school that decided to install UATs. I don't see many UAT aircraft in the North East, but I agree it would be nice to have support for UAT.
> > > > Where are you getting these statistics? I have a FlightAware ADS-B receiver at my cabin in Western WI. About 25% of the GA aircraft that fly over my cabin do not show up on my ADS-B receiver, which is 1090ES only. I suspect that most of these aircraft are UAT equipped.
> > >
> > > Flightaware.com
> > To be more precise FlightAware ADS-B Statistics https://flightaware.com/adsb/stats/
> > Select top countries and the first entry is USA with the data I gave you.
> That is totally misleading. What you are looking at is the number of aircraft seen by FlightAware. There are almost no FlightAware receivers in the US that are configured to receive UAT ADS-B OUT transmissions. The VAST majority of FlightAware receivers are 1090ES only.
>
> The only reliable way to determine the 1090ES vs UAT equipage is to get this data from the FAA. They have all of this data, given that everyone equipped with ADS-B has to run an ADS-B performance report, which requires the pilot to identify not only what frequency the ADS-B OUT is on, but also the manufacturer of the ADS-B transmitter and GPS source.
>
> When you look at the low-cost UAT ADS-B options available from Garmin, uAvionix, and others, I would be willing to wager that a very significant proportion of the GA fleet is UAT equipped.


This gets confusing as to why people use 978 UAT. This is from Garmin:
It’s on the receiving end of ADS-B “In� data that things get a little complicated. The issue is available bandwidth. Since 1090 MHz is being used to support all transponder interrogations and TCAS traffic alerting, as well as ADS-B transmissions, there exists the potential for frequency congestion as airspace traffic continues to grow. To help alleviate crowding on the 1090 MHz band, the FAA decided in 2002 to supplement this ADS-B solution with a second option: the Universal Access Transceiver, or UAT, which operates on a dedicated radio frequency of 978 MHz. As the word “transceiver� implies, the 978 UAT radio can be configured to provide both ADS-B “Out� and “In� capability in a single product. Some versions even include an integral WAAS GPS to provide a complete “one box� ADS-B solution. The ADS-B “Out� broadcast on 978 MHz carries all the same tracking data sent by ES transponders on 1090 MHz. However, on the ADS-B “In� side, the additional bandwidth afforded by the 978 MHz spectrum allows for a much more extensive list of data uplink services. Whereas 1090 MHz ES only has the capacity for ADS-B position and traffic reporting, the 978 UAT link is configured to support a variety of free weather, traffic and airspace information services. The FAA wants to encourage GA pilots whose aircraft typically operate below 18,000 ft to opt for 978 UAT, and thus help minimize congestion on the 1090 MHz frequency. The thinking is that a variety of free added-value features will further incentivize GA owners to adopt some form of 978 UAT for their ADS-B solution. It should also be pointed out that since the FAA’s infrastructure will rebroadcast information between 1090 ES and 978 UAT systems, it’s also possible for users to install a mixed ADS-B solution — for example, one using an ES transponder for ADS-B “Out� and a 978 UAT datalink receiver for ADS-B “In�. A variety of intriguing combinations can be considered.
Source https://www.garmin.com/en-US/aviation/adsb-compliance/

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 1:45:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Levy wrote:
> On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 9:34:34 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 7:03:09 AM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 8:00:34 AM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 12:30:46 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 8:10:28 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Levy wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > > > > > > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > > > > > > > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > > > > > > > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > > > > > > > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > > > > > > > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > > > > > > > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > > > > > > > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For complete details see:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Richard
> > > > > > > > www.craggyaero.com
> > > > > > > Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.
> > > > > > Doug, what is a large percentage in your opinion? Total number of positions in the last 30 days on 1090 Mhz equals 40,278,138,192 and on UAT 6,000,664. Let's divide the first number by 100 to assume that most of those positions are at higher altitude and only 1% at altitude relevant to us. So it is 6,000,664/402,781,381 * 100 = 1.489%
> > > > > > As you see you are not missing much, unless you are in a special place near a large flight school that decided to install UATs. I don't see many UAT aircraft in the North East, but I agree it would be nice to have support for UAT.
> > > > > Where are you getting these statistics? I have a FlightAware ADS-B receiver at my cabin in Western WI. About 25% of the GA aircraft that fly over my cabin do not show up on my ADS-B receiver, which is 1090ES only. I suspect that most of these aircraft are UAT equipped.
> > > >
> > > > Flightaware.com
> > > To be more precise FlightAware ADS-B Statistics https://flightaware.com/adsb/stats/
> > > Select top countries and the first entry is USA with the data I gave you.
> > That is totally misleading. What you are looking at is the number of aircraft seen by FlightAware. There are almost no FlightAware receivers in the US that are configured to receive UAT ADS-B OUT transmissions. The VAST majority of FlightAware receivers are 1090ES only.
> >
> > The only reliable way to determine the 1090ES vs UAT equipage is to get this data from the FAA. They have all of this data, given that everyone equipped with ADS-B has to run an ADS-B performance report, which requires the pilot to identify not only what frequency the ADS-B OUT is on, but also the manufacturer of the ADS-B transmitter and GPS source.
> >
> > When you look at the low-cost UAT ADS-B options available from Garmin, uAvionix, and others, I would be willing to wager that a very significant proportion of the GA fleet is UAT equipped.
>
>
> This gets confusing as to why people use 978 UAT. This is from Garmin:
> It’s on the receiving end of ADS-B “In� data that things get a little complicated. The issue is available bandwidth. Since 1090 MHz is being used to support all transponder interrogations and TCAS traffic alerting, as well as ADS-B transmissions, there exists the potential for frequency congestion as airspace traffic continues to grow. To help alleviate crowding on the 1090 MHz band, the FAA decided in 2002 to supplement this ADS-B solution with a second option: the Universal Access Transceiver, or UAT, which operates on a dedicated radio frequency of 978 MHz. As the word “transceiver� implies, the 978 UAT radio can be configured to provide both ADS-B “Out� and “In� capability in a single product. Some versions even include an integral WAAS GPS to provide a complete “one box� ADS-B solution. The ADS-B “Out� broadcast on 978 MHz carries all the same tracking data sent by ES transponders on 1090 MHz. However, on the ADS-B “In� side, the additional bandwidth afforded by the 978 MHz spectrum allows for a much more extensive list of data uplink services. Whereas 1090 MHz ES only has the capacity for ADS-B position and traffic reporting, the 978 UAT link is configured to support a variety of free weather, traffic and airspace information services. The FAA wants to encourage GA pilots whose aircraft typically operate below 18,000 ft to opt for 978 UAT, and thus help minimize congestion on the 1090 MHz frequency. The thinking is that a variety of free added-value features will further incentivize GA owners to adopt some form of 978 UAT for their ADS-B solution. It should also be pointed out that since the FAA’s infrastructure will rebroadcast information between 1090 ES and 978 UAT systems, it’s also possible for users to install a mixed ADS-B solution — for example, one using an ES transponder for ADS-B “Out� and a 978 UAT datalink receiver for ADS-B “In�. A variety of intriguing combinations can be considered.
> Source https://www.garmin.com/en-US/aviation/adsb-compliance/
Why is this confusing? UAT is a modern protocol designed by Mitre to provide a huge increase in bandwidth to enable large increases in traffic and additional services, such as weather radar, etc. In addition, UAT transceivers utilize much lower cost and lower power hardware. 1090ES is another bandaid added to 1940s vintage transponder technology that was originally developed during WW II. What is unfortunate is that the FAA buckled to the international aviation community, instead of mandating that ADS-B in the US be standardized on UAT. As a result we get the complications of a dual frequency system.

Most Ads-B receivers sold in the US, except for FLARM, are now dual frequency so they can see both UAT and 1090ES traffic without being within range of an ADS-B ground station. This is a no brainer given the cost of this hardware ($175 for the pingUSB, $200 for Scout).

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Mike Schumann wrote on 11/8/2020 11:26 AM:
> Why is this confusing? UAT is a modern protocol designed by Mitre to provide a huge increase in bandwidth to enable large increases in traffic and additional services, such as weather radar, etc. In addition, UAT transceivers utilize much lower cost and lower power hardware. 1090ES is another bandaid added to 1940s vintage transponder technology that was originally developed during WW II. What is unfortunate is that the FAA buckled to the international aviation community, instead of mandating that ADS-B in the US be standardized on UAT. As a result we get the complications of a dual frequency system.
>
> Most Ads-B receivers sold in the US, except for FLARM, are now dual frequency so they can see both UAT and 1090ES traffic without being within range of an ADS-B ground station. This is a no brainer given the cost of this hardware ($175 for the pingUSB, $200 for Scout).

Perhaps LXNav, LXNavigation, etc could persuaded to use their wifi for a connection to Scout,
or USB connection for the Ping USB. Or maybe better, Flarm would develop a WiFi/USB connection
to Ping USB or Scout, and merge that data with the Flarm data output.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 12:34:34 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 7:03:09 AM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 8:00:34 AM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 12:30:46 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 8:10:28 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Levy wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > > > > > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > > > > > > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > > > > > > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > > > > > > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > > > > > > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > > > > > > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > > > > > > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For complete details see:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Richard
> > > > > > > www.craggyaero.com
> > > > > > Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.
> > > > > Doug, what is a large percentage in your opinion? Total number of positions in the last 30 days on 1090 Mhz equals 40,278,138,192 and on UAT 6,000,664. Let's divide the first number by 100 to assume that most of those positions are at higher altitude and only 1% at altitude relevant to us. So it is 6,000,664/402,781,381 * 100 = 1.489%
> > > > > As you see you are not missing much, unless you are in a special place near a large flight school that decided to install UATs. I don't see many UAT aircraft in the North East, but I agree it would be nice to have support for UAT.
> > > > Where are you getting these statistics? I have a FlightAware ADS-B receiver at my cabin in Western WI. About 25% of the GA aircraft that fly over my cabin do not show up on my ADS-B receiver, which is 1090ES only. I suspect that most of these aircraft are UAT equipped.
> > >
> > > Flightaware.com
> > To be more precise FlightAware ADS-B Statistics https://flightaware.com/adsb/stats/
> > Select top countries and the first entry is USA with the data I gave you.
> That is totally misleading. What you are looking at is the number of aircraft seen by FlightAware. There are almost no FlightAware receivers in the US that are configured to receive UAT ADS-B OUT transmissions. The VAST majority of FlightAware receivers are 1090ES only.
>
> The only reliable way to determine the 1090ES vs UAT equipage is to get this data from the FAA. They have all of this data, given that everyone equipped with ADS-B has to run an ADS-B performance report, which requires the pilot to identify not only what frequency the ADS-B OUT is on, but also the manufacturer of the ADS-B transmitter and GPS source.
>
> When you look at the low cost UAT ADS-B options available from Garmin, uAvionix, and others, I would be willing to wager that a very significant proportion of the GA fleet is UAT equipped.

Well, I went back to look at configuration of some stations. It is true, many don't support UAT, so we simply don't know what the true number might be..

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 4:49:34 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 12:34:34 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 7:03:09 AM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 8:00:34 AM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 12:30:46 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 8:10:28 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Levy wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > > > > > > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > > > > > > > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > > > > > > > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > > > > > > > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > > > > > > > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > > > > > > > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > > > > > > > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For complete details see:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Richard
> > > > > > > > www.craggyaero.com
> > > > > > > Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.
> > > > > > Doug, what is a large percentage in your opinion? Total number of positions in the last 30 days on 1090 Mhz equals 40,278,138,192 and on UAT 6,000,664. Let's divide the first number by 100 to assume that most of those positions are at higher altitude and only 1% at altitude relevant to us. So it is 6,000,664/402,781,381 * 100 = 1.489%
> > > > > > As you see you are not missing much, unless you are in a special place near a large flight school that decided to install UATs. I don't see many UAT aircraft in the North East, but I agree it would be nice to have support for UAT.
> > > > > Where are you getting these statistics? I have a FlightAware ADS-B receiver at my cabin in Western WI. About 25% of the GA aircraft that fly over my cabin do not show up on my ADS-B receiver, which is 1090ES only. I suspect that most of these aircraft are UAT equipped.
> > > >
> > > > Flightaware.com
> > > To be more precise FlightAware ADS-B Statistics https://flightaware.com/adsb/stats/
> > > Select top countries and the first entry is USA with the data I gave you.
> > That is totally misleading. What you are looking at is the number of aircraft seen by FlightAware. There are almost no FlightAware receivers in the US that are configured to receive UAT ADS-B OUT transmissions. The VAST majority of FlightAware receivers are 1090ES only.
> >
> > The only reliable way to determine the 1090ES vs UAT equipage is to get this data from the FAA. They have all of this data, given that everyone equipped with ADS-B has to run an ADS-B performance report, which requires the pilot to identify not only what frequency the ADS-B OUT is on, but also the manufacturer of the ADS-B transmitter and GPS source.
> >
> > When you look at the low cost UAT ADS-B options available from Garmin, uAvionix, and others, I would be willing to wager that a very significant proportion of the GA fleet is UAT equipped.
> Well, I went back to look at configuration of some stations. It is true, many don't support UAT, so we simply don't know what the true number might be.

I just got the following ADS-B OUT statistics from the FAA as of 11/1/20:

1090ES - 103,871
UAT - 29,325
DUAL - 1,197

As you can see almost 30% of the A/C in the US are UAT equipped. Since all aircraft that operate above 18K ft need to be 1090ES equipped, the percentage of single engine piston A/C that are potential threats to gliders is even higher than that.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 9:46:37 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 4:49:34 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 12:34:34 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 7:03:09 AM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 8:00:34 AM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 12:30:46 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 8:10:28 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, November 7, 2020 at 12:02:53 PM UTC-5, Doug Levy wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, November 6, 2020 at 2:55:37 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > > > > > > > PowerFlarm officially releasing the new PowerFLARM Fusion.. It replaces PowerFLARM Core and comes loaded with features:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > • Connect smartphones and tablets via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth
> > > > > > > > > • FLARM Hub web app for easy upgrades, configuration, and maintenance
> > > > > > > > > • GDL 90 protocol for streaming traffic data to EFBs like ForeFlight and SkyDemon
> > > > > > > > > • Worldwide interoperability (only one version)
> > > > > > > > > • Previously optional features are now included: Radio Diversity (RFB), 1090 Receiver (ADS-B, Mode-S), IGC, ENL, and Audio. No need to purchase licenses.
> > > > > > > > > • Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on
> > > > > > > > > • Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For complete details see:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Standard Base Price $1795, Introductory Price $1526 until Jan 31, 2021
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Richard
> > > > > > > > > www.craggyaero.com
> > > > > > > > Do they have any plans to include 978? I have a dual-band ADS-B receiver and Flarm. There is a large percentage of aircraft on 978 that I'm not seeing on Flarm.
> > > > > > > Doug, what is a large percentage in your opinion? Total number of positions in the last 30 days on 1090 Mhz equals 40,278,138,192 and on UAT 6,000,664. Let's divide the first number by 100 to assume that most of those positions are at higher altitude and only 1% at altitude relevant to us. So it is 6,000,664/402,781,381 * 100 = 1.489%
> > > > > > > As you see you are not missing much, unless you are in a special place near a large flight school that decided to install UATs. I don't see many UAT aircraft in the North East, but I agree it would be nice to have support for UAT.
> > > > > > Where are you getting these statistics? I have a FlightAware ADS-B receiver at my cabin in Western WI. About 25% of the GA aircraft that fly over my cabin do not show up on my ADS-B receiver, which is 1090ES only. I suspect that most of these aircraft are UAT equipped.
> > > > >
> > > > > Flightaware.com
> > > > To be more precise FlightAware ADS-B Statistics https://flightaware..com/adsb/stats/
> > > > Select top countries and the first entry is USA with the data I gave you.
> > > That is totally misleading. What you are looking at is the number of aircraft seen by FlightAware. There are almost no FlightAware receivers in the US that are configured to receive UAT ADS-B OUT transmissions. The VAST majority of FlightAware receivers are 1090ES only.
> > >
> > > The only reliable way to determine the 1090ES vs UAT equipage is to get this data from the FAA. They have all of this data, given that everyone equipped with ADS-B has to run an ADS-B performance report, which requires the pilot to identify not only what frequency the ADS-B OUT is on, but also the manufacturer of the ADS-B transmitter and GPS source.
> > >
> > > When you look at the low cost UAT ADS-B options available from Garmin, uAvionix, and others, I would be willing to wager that a very significant proportion of the GA fleet is UAT equipped.
> > Well, I went back to look at configuration of some stations. It is true, many don't support UAT, so we simply don't know what the true number might be.
>
> I just got the following ADS-B OUT statistics from the FAA as of 11/1/20:
>
> 1090ES - 103,871
> UAT - 29,325
> DUAL - 1,197
>
> As you can see almost 30% of the A/C in the US are UAT equipped. Since all aircraft that operate above 18K ft need to be 1090ES equipped, the percentage of single engine piston A/C that are potential threats to gliders is even higher than that.

From Flarm on FCC approval.

The device is FCC certified, we are just waiting for the paperwork, but all tests are done. I will not ship before we have the paperwork, should take 2-3 weeks.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Mike Schumann wrote on 11/9/2020 9:46 AM:
> On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 4:49:34 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 8, 2020 at 12:34:34 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
....
>>> The only reliable way to determine the 1090ES vs UAT equipage is to get this data from the FAA. They have all of this data, given that everyone equipped with ADS-B has to run an ADS-B performance report, which requires the pilot to identify not only what frequency the ADS-B OUT is on, but also the manufacturer of the ADS-B transmitter and GPS source.
>>>
>>> When you look at the low cost UAT ADS-B options available from Garmin, uAvionix, and others, I would be willing to wager that a very significant proportion of the GA fleet is UAT equipped.
>> Well, I went back to look at configuration of some stations. It is true, many don't support UAT, so we simply don't know what the true number might be.
>
> I just got the following ADS-B OUT statistics from the FAA as of 11/1/20:
>
> 1090ES - 103,871
> UAT - 29,325
> DUAL - 1,197
>
> As you can see almost 30% of the A/C in the US are UAT equipped. Since all aircraft that operate above 18K ft need to be 1090ES equipped, the percentage of single engine piston A/C that are potential threats to gliders is even higher than that.

There are about about 8000 commercial aircraft. That suggests about 120,000 GA aircraft are
ADS-B equipped. There are about 220,000 GA aircraft registered in the US, suggesting 100,000
are not equipped with ADS-B. If true, our biggest danger is that 100,000, not the UAT equipped
ones. It may not be that bad, as Flarm will pick up any of those with transponders.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Ramy[_2_]]

ADS-R and TIS-B should be available very soon in all powerflarm units via firmware upgrade. I am flying with a beta version and can now see virtually all traffic, including UAT and mode C (via ground station relay). Stay tuned.

Ramy

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 1:51:26 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> ADS-R and TIS-B should be available very soon in all powerflarm units via firmware upgrade. I am flying with a beta version and can now see virtually all traffic, including UAT and mode C (via ground station relay). Stay tuned.
>
> Ramy

That is great news. However, people need to understand that this is not the ideal solution vs. a dual band receiver: 1. You need to be within range of an ADS-B ground station, 2. The other aircraft needs to be at sufficient altitude to be visible to ATC Radar and/or an ADS-B ground station, and 3. Your glider needs to be ADS-B OUT equipped to trigger the ADS-B ground station to send you the ADS-R and TIS-B information.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Yes, I overlooked the fact that you need ADSB out for this feature to work. So one more reason to hurry up and install ADS-B out in your glider.

Ramy

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:58:20 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 1:51:26 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> > ADS-R and TIS-B should be available very soon in all powerflarm units via firmware upgrade. I am flying with a beta version and can now see virtually all traffic, including UAT and mode C (via ground station relay). Stay tuned.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> That is great news. However, people need to understand that this is not the ideal solution vs. a dual band receiver: 1. You need to be within range of an ADS-B ground station, 2. The other aircraft needs to be at sufficient altitude to be visible to ATC Radar and/or an ADS-B ground station, and 3. Your glider needs to be ADS-B OUT equipped to trigger the ADS-B ground station to send you the ADS-R and TIS-B information.

Your glider does not have to be ADS-B out. All that is needed is for any 1090 out aircraft to be in the ADS range ie in the Puck to trigger the ground station for rebroadcast ADS-R.

Richard

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 5:08:34 PM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:58:20 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 1:51:26 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> > > ADS-R and TIS-B should be available very soon in all powerflarm units via firmware upgrade. I am flying with a beta version and can now see virtually all traffic, including UAT and mode C (via ground station relay). Stay tuned.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> >
> > That is great news. However, people need to understand that this is not the ideal solution vs. a dual band receiver: 1. You need to be within range of an ADS-B ground station, 2. The other aircraft needs to be at sufficient altitude to be visible to ATC Radar and/or an ADS-B ground station, and 3. Your glider needs to be ADS-B OUT equipped to trigger the ADS-B ground station to send you the ADS-R and TIS-B information.
> Your glider does not have to be ADS-B out. All that is needed is for any 1090 out aircraft to be in the ADS range ie in the Puck to trigger the ground station for rebroadcast ADS-R.
>
> Richard

That is not correct. An ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft that is in your vicinity will trigger the ground station to transmit ADS-R and TIS-B, but this will only occur on the frequency of the ADS-B OUT aircraft's IN receiver frequency. If you are near an aircraft configured with both a UAT transmitter and receiver, the ADS-R and TIS-B traffic will only be transmitted on the UAT frequency. The same situation occurs for a 1090ES OUT equipped aircraft that has a UAT receiver.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 5:10:17 PM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 5:08:34 PM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:58:20 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 1:51:26 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> > > > ADS-R and TIS-B should be available very soon in all powerflarm units via firmware upgrade. I am flying with a beta version and can now see virtually all traffic, including UAT and mode C (via ground station relay). Stay tuned.
> > > >
> > > > Ramy
> > >
> > > That is great news. However, people need to understand that this is not the ideal solution vs. a dual band receiver: 1. You need to be within range of an ADS-B ground station, 2. The other aircraft needs to be at sufficient altitude to be visible to ATC Radar and/or an ADS-B ground station, and 3. Your glider needs to be ADS-B OUT equipped to trigger the ADS-B ground station to send you the ADS-R and TIS-B information.
> > Your glider does not have to be ADS-B out. All that is needed is for any 1090 out aircraft to be in the ADS range ie in the Puck to trigger the ground station for rebroadcast ADS-R.
> >
> > Richard
>
> That is not correct. An ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft that is in your vicinity will trigger the ground station to transmit ADS-R and TIS-B, but this will only occur on the frequency of the ADS-B OUT aircraft's IN receiver frequency. If you are near an aircraft configured with both a UAT transmitter and receiver, the ADS-R and TIS-B traffic will only be transmitted on the UAT frequency. The same situation occurs for a 1090ES OUT equipped aircraft that has a UAT receiver.

I believe you need to review this webpage

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/capabilities/ins_outs/

Specifically this section

Automatic Dependent Surveillance � Rebroadcast (ADS-R)

ADS-R is a client-based service that relays ADS-B information transmitted by an aircraft broadcasting on one link to aircraft equipped with ADS-B In on the other link. For example, the information for an aircraft equipped with a 1090MHz ADS-B Out system will be re-broadcasted to an aircraft equipped with ADS-B In on the UAT (i.e. 978MHz) frequency, and vice versa.

Richard

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 8:30:24 PM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 5:10:17 PM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 5:08:34 PM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:58:20 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > > > On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 1:51:26 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> > > > > ADS-R and TIS-B should be available very soon in all powerflarm units via firmware upgrade. I am flying with a beta version and can now see virtually all traffic, including UAT and mode C (via ground station relay). Stay tuned.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ramy
> > > >
> > > > That is great news. However, people need to understand that this is not the ideal solution vs. a dual band receiver: 1. You need to be within range of an ADS-B ground station, 2. The other aircraft needs to be at sufficient altitude to be visible to ATC Radar and/or an ADS-B ground station, and 3. Your glider needs to be ADS-B OUT equipped to trigger the ADS-B ground station to send you the ADS-R and TIS-B information.
> > > Your glider does not have to be ADS-B out. All that is needed is for any 1090 out aircraft to be in the ADS range ie in the Puck to trigger the ground station for rebroadcast ADS-R.
> > >
> > > Richard
> >
> > That is not correct. An ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft that is in your vicinity will trigger the ground station to transmit ADS-R and TIS-B, but this will only occur on the frequency of the ADS-B OUT aircraft's IN receiver frequency. If you are near an aircraft configured with both a UAT transmitter and receiver, the ADS-R and TIS-B traffic will only be transmitted on the UAT frequency. The same situation occurs for a 1090ES OUT equipped aircraft that has a UAT receiver.
> I believe you need to review this webpage
>
> https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/capabilities/ins_outs/
>
> Specifically this section
>
> Automatic Dependent Surveillance � Rebroadcast (ADS-R)
>
> ADS-R is a client-based service that relays ADS-B information transmitted by an aircraft broadcasting on one link to aircraft equipped with ADS-B In on the other link. For example, the information for an aircraft equipped with a 1090MHz ADS-B Out system will be re-broadcasted to an aircraft equipped with ADS-B In on the UAT (i.e. 978MHz) frequency, and vice versa.
>
> Richard

You need to carefully read the section at the bottom of that page labeled "How do I receive ADS-B In Traffic Services and what do I see today?"

The TIS-B and ADS-R functions are specifically designed to conserve bandwidth, which is particularly critical for the 1090ES frequency. The page specifically states: "It is important to note that aircraft with dual link ADS-B-In capability (i.e. 1090MHz and 978MHz) are not provided with ADS-R services. This is because the aircraft is already capable of receiving ADS-B messages from both links directly via air-to-air."

The page further states: "Any "not-on-the-same ADS-B Link" aircraft that falls within the "hockey puck" will be transmitted via ADS-R on the appropriate ADS-B In link to the "client" aircraft. Similarly, any non-ADS-B Out Transponder equipped aircraft within the "client" aircraft's hockey puck will be transmitted via TIS-B on the appropriate ADS-B In link."

Note that the data is only transmitted on the "appropriate ADS-B In link" of the client aircraft, NOT on both frequencies.

Most UAT OUT equipped aircraft either have a UAT only or dual frequency ADS-B receiver. With this configuration, a UAT equipped aircraft will NEVER trigger the ADS-B ground station to transmit ADS-R messages for other UAT OUT equipped aircraft in the hockey puck.

Also worth noting is that the ADS-R messages only include other aircraft in the hockey puck, and not the triggering aircraft. As a result, if you had a UAT OUT equipped aircraft with a 1090ES only receiver (a very unusual configuration), the ADS-R messages triggered by this aircraft on the 1090ES frequency would only show other UAT equipped aircraft in the area. If you had a PowerFLARM system, you potentially could see these other UAT OUT equipped aircraft, but NOT the aircraft triggering the ground station.

[[email protected]]

So, to see a UAT equipped aircraft with a 1090 receiver you need to be close to an aircraft with 1090 in/out. Most reliable way to do this is to put adsb 1090 in/out on your glider.

To be seen by that UAT equipped aircraft, same answer.

With adsb out on the glider and the flarm core 1090 rx, the only issue I'm seeing is latency in the ground relay system.

It will be really neat if a flarm core s/w upgrade adds UAT rx, or turns on all of the h/w in the box, especially the second flarm transmitter. Lacking that, instead of switching to a new flarm box, would it be better to put the money into adsb out?

That said, if I was adding flarm, the new one looks nice.

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/10/20 6:14 AM, wrote:
> So, to see a UAT equipped aircraft with a 1090 receiver you need to be close to an aircraft with 1090 in/out. Most reliable way to do this is to put adsb 1090 in/out on your glider.
>
> To be seen by that UAT equipped aircraft, same answer.
>
> With adsb out on the glider and the flarm core 1090 rx, the only issue I'm seeing is latency in the ground relay system.
>
> It will be really neat if a flarm core s/w upgrade adds UAT rx, or turns on all of the h/w in the box, especially the second flarm transmitter. Lacking that, instead of switching to a new flarm box, would it be better to put the money into adsb out?
>
> That said, if I was adding flarm, the new one looks nice.
>
If you have an experimental glider and a Trig transponder, it only costs
around $400 to add a TN-72 GPS and antenna. That gives you dual ADS-B
Out. With the addition of a Stratux receiver $150-250 depending upon
whether you assemble it yourself or buy a preassembled and tested unit,
you get dual ADS-B In. I have that in my gyroplane. I use a TN-70 in
the Stemme since it has Standard certification.

Flarm receives the ADS-B signals and my ClearNav II and Flarmview
display targets. In the gyro I use an iPad with FlyQ. Works great in both!

--
Dan
5J

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dan Marotta wrote on 11/10/2020 7:31 AM:
> On 11/10/20 6:14 AM, wrote:
>> So, to see a UAT equipped aircraft with a 1090 receiver you need to be close to an aircraft
>> with 1090 in/out.* Most reliable way to do this is to put adsb 1090 in/out on your glider.
>>
>> To be seen by that UAT equipped aircraft, same answer.
>>
>> With adsb out on the glider and the flarm core 1090 rx, the only issue I'm seeing is latency
>> in the ground relay system.
>>
>> It will be really neat if a flarm core s/w upgrade adds UAT rx, or turns on all of the h/w in
>> the box, especially the second flarm transmitter.* Lacking that, instead of switching to a
>> new flarm box, would it be better to put the money into adsb out?
>>
>> That said, if I was adding flarm, the new one looks nice.
>>
> If you have an experimental glider and a Trig transponder, it only costs around $400 to add a
> TN-72 GPS and antenna.* That gives you dual ADS-B Out.* With the addition of a Stratux receiver
> $150-250 depending upon whether you assemble it yourself or buy a preassembled and tested unit,
> you get dual ADS-B In.* I have that in my gyroplane.* I use a TN-70 in the Stemme since it has
> Standard certification.
>
> Flarm receives the ADS-B signals and my ClearNav II and Flarmview display targets.* In the gyro
> I use an iPad with FlyQ.* Works great in both!
>
How does the Stratux connect to CN II and Flarmview? I like the size of the Scout, but I think
it only works with Foreflight, which I don't use.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 10:11:36 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Dan Marotta wrote on 11/10/2020 7:31 AM:
> > On 11/10/20 6:14 AM, wrote:
> >> So, to see a UAT equipped aircraft with a 1090 receiver you need to be close to an aircraft
> >> with 1090 in/out. Most reliable way to do this is to put adsb 1090 in/out on your glider.
> >>
> >> To be seen by that UAT equipped aircraft, same answer.
> >>
> >> With adsb out on the glider and the flarm core 1090 rx, the only issue I'm seeing is latency
> >> in the ground relay system.
> >>
> >> It will be really neat if a flarm core s/w upgrade adds UAT rx, or turns on all of the h/w in
> >> the box, especially the second flarm transmitter. Lacking that, instead of switching to a
> >> new flarm box, would it be better to put the money into adsb out?
> >>
> >> That said, if I was adding flarm, the new one looks nice.
> >>
> > If you have an experimental glider and a Trig transponder, it only costs around $400 to add a
> > TN-72 GPS and antenna. That gives you dual ADS-B Out. With the addition of a Stratux receiver
> > $150-250 depending upon whether you assemble it yourself or buy a preassembled and tested unit,
> > you get dual ADS-B In. I have that in my gyroplane. I use a TN-70 in the Stemme since it has
> > Standard certification.
> >
> > Flarm receives the ADS-B signals and my ClearNav II and Flarmview display targets. In the gyro
> > I use an iPad with FlyQ. Works great in both!
> >
> How does the Stratux connect to CN II and Flarmview? I like the size of the Scout, but I think
> it only works with Foreflight, which I don't use.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

pingUSB is the same size as Scout, but works with almost all apps. Only downside is that it is a traffic only dual frequency ADS-B receiver (no weather). The cost is $175.

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/10/20 9:11 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Dan Marotta wrote on 11/10/2020 7:31 AM:
>> On 11/10/20 6:14 AM, wrote:
>>> So, to see a UAT equipped aircraft with a 1090 receiver you need to
>>> be close to an aircraft with 1090 in/out.Â* Most reliable way to do
>>> this is to put adsb 1090 in/out on your glider.
>>>
>>> To be seen by that UAT equipped aircraft, same answer.
>>>
>>> With adsb out on the glider and the flarm core 1090 rx, the only
>>> issue I'm seeing is latency in the ground relay system.
>>>
>>> It will be really neat if a flarm core s/w upgrade adds UAT rx, or
>>> turns on all of the h/w in the box, especially the second flarm
>>> transmitter.Â* Lacking that, instead of switching to a new flarm box,
>>> would it be better to put the money into adsb out?
>>>
>>> That said, if I was adding flarm, the new one looks nice.
>>>
>> If you have an experimental glider and a Trig transponder, it only
>> costs around $400 to add a TN-72 GPS and antenna.Â* That gives you dual
>> ADS-B Out.Â* With the addition of a Stratux receiver $150-250 depending
>> upon whether you assemble it yourself or buy a preassembled and tested
>> unit, you get dual ADS-B In.Â* I have that in my gyroplane.Â* I use a
>> TN-70 in the Stemme since it has Standard certification.
>>
>> Flarm receives the ADS-B signals and my ClearNav II and Flarmview
>> display targets.Â* In the gyro I use an iPad with FlyQ.Â* Works great in
>> both!
>>
> How does the Stratux connect to CN II and Flarmview? I like the size of
> the Scout, but I think it only works with Foreflight, which I don't use.
>


The Stratux is in the gyro. It connects to the iPad via wifi.

In the Stemme, ADS-B signals are picked up by the PowerFlarm portable
and sent to the CN via CAT-5 (RJ-45) cable carrying serial data and to
the FlarmView via the included RJ-11 cable carrying either serial or CAN
bus data, I don't know which data stream is on that cable.

--
Dan
5J

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 9:31:43 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 11/10/20 6:14 AM, wrote:
> > So, to see a UAT equipped aircraft with a 1090 receiver you need to be close to an aircraft with 1090 in/out. Most reliable way to do this is to put adsb 1090 in/out on your glider.
> >
> > To be seen by that UAT equipped aircraft, same answer.
> >
> > With adsb out on the glider and the flarm core 1090 rx, the only issue I'm seeing is latency in the ground relay system.
> >
> > It will be really neat if a flarm core s/w upgrade adds UAT rx, or turns on all of the h/w in the box, especially the second flarm transmitter. Lacking that, instead of switching to a new flarm box, would it be better to put the money into adsb out?
> >
> > That said, if I was adding flarm, the new one looks nice.
> >
> If you have an experimental glider and a Trig transponder, it only costs
> around $400 to add a TN-72 GPS and antenna. That gives you dual ADS-B
> Out. With the addition of a Stratux receiver $150-250 depending upon
> whether you assemble it yourself or buy a preassembled and tested unit,
> you get dual ADS-B In. I have that in my gyroplane. I use a TN-70 in
> the Stemme since it has Standard certification.
>
> Flarm receives the ADS-B signals and my ClearNav II and Flarmview
> display targets. In the gyro I use an iPad with FlyQ. Works great in both!
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J

One minor clarification. Adding a Trig transponder with a GPS source to your glider gives you 1090ES ADS-B OUT, not a dual frequency ADS-B OUT. It is a great solution that makes you visible to ATC, airliner TCAS systems, and virtually all ADS-B IN equipped aircraft. It will also trigger the ADS-B ground stations to transmit ADS-R and TIS-B traffic, which should be visible via FLARM once Ramy's Beta software gets released.

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/10/20 9:22 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 10:11:36 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Dan Marotta wrote on 11/10/2020 7:31 AM:
>>> On 11/10/20 6:14 AM, wrote:
>>>> So, to see a UAT equipped aircraft with a 1090 receiver you need to be close to an aircraft
>>>> with 1090 in/out. Most reliable way to do this is to put adsb 1090 in/out on your glider.
>>>>
>>>> To be seen by that UAT equipped aircraft, same answer.
>>>>
>>>> With adsb out on the glider and the flarm core 1090 rx, the only issue I'm seeing is latency
>>>> in the ground relay system.
>>>>
>>>> It will be really neat if a flarm core s/w upgrade adds UAT rx, or turns on all of the h/w in
>>>> the box, especially the second flarm transmitter. Lacking that, instead of switching to a
>>>> new flarm box, would it be better to put the money into adsb out?
>>>>
>>>> That said, if I was adding flarm, the new one looks nice.
>>>>
>>> If you have an experimental glider and a Trig transponder, it only costs around $400 to add a
>>> TN-72 GPS and antenna. That gives you dual ADS-B Out. With the addition of a Stratux receiver
>>> $150-250 depending upon whether you assemble it yourself or buy a preassembled and tested unit,
>>> you get dual ADS-B In. I have that in my gyroplane. I use a TN-70 in the Stemme since it has
>>> Standard certification.
>>>
>>> Flarm receives the ADS-B signals and my ClearNav II and Flarmview display targets. In the gyro
>>> I use an iPad with FlyQ. Works great in both!
>>>
>> How does the Stratux connect to CN II and Flarmview? I like the size of the Scout, but I think
>> it only works with Foreflight, which I don't use.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> pingUSB is the same size as Scout, but works with almost all apps. Only downside is that it is a traffic only dual frequency ADS-B receiver (no weather). The cost is $175.
>

Thanks for that. The Stratux brings in weather and TFRs in addition to
traffic, maybe other stuff, but those are all I care about.

--
Dan
5J

[Delta8]

On 11/10/20 9:22 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 10:11:36 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 11/10/2020 7:31 AM:
On 11/10/20 6:14 AM, wrote:
So, to see a UAT equipped aircraft with a 1090 receiver you need to be close to an aircraft
with 1090 in/out. Most reliable way to do this is to put adsb 1090 in/out on your glider.

To be seen by that UAT equipped aircraft, same answer.

With adsb out on the glider and the flarm core 1090 rx, the only issue I'm seeing is latency
in the ground relay system.

It will be really neat if a flarm core s/w upgrade adds UAT rx, or turns on all of the h/w in
the box, especially the second flarm transmitter. Lacking that, instead of switching to a
new flarm box, would it be better to put the money into adsb out?

That said, if I was adding flarm, the new one looks nice.

If you have an experimental glider and a Trig transponder, it only costs around $400 to add a
TN-72 GPS and antenna. That gives you dual ADS-B Out. With the addition of a Stratux receiver
$150-250 depending upon whether you assemble it yourself or buy a preassembled and tested unit,
you get dual ADS-B In. I have that in my gyroplane. I use a TN-70 in the Stemme since it has
Standard certification.

Flarm receives the ADS-B signals and my ClearNav II and Flarmview display targets. In the gyro
I use an iPad with FlyQ. Works great in both!

How does the Stratux connect to CN II and Flarmview? I like the size of the Scout, but I think
it only works with Foreflight, which I don't use.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

pingUSB is the same size as Scout, but works with almost all apps. Only downside is that it is a traffic only dual frequency ADS-B receiver (no weather). The cost is $175.


Thanks for that. The Stratux brings in weather and TFRs in addition to
traffic, maybe other stuff, but those are all I care about.

--
Dan
5J

I use an I phone/ Foreflight ,Crew Dog Stratux with ear buds and get audio verbal collision avoidance . Also have a glide Ameba set up for conservative 30/1 . AHRS too but needs to be calibrated on the ground before takeoff .

I don't have Flarm just yet but soon hopefully

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A and B Flarm Antennas.

http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm



Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[George Haeh]

Flarm also says the Core 1.1 transmits on both antennas. But I have not yet heard that they have FCC approval for that. In the interim, they can't transmit on the B antenna in North America.

[kinsell]

The specification table says 'second FLARM receiving antenna"


On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A and B Flarm Antennas.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>
>
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com
>

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 6:48:39 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Flarm also says the Core 1.1 transmits on both antennas. But I have not yet heard that they have FCC approval for that. In the interim, they can't transmit on the B antenna in North America.


Flarm says that the PowerFlarm core does not transmit on both antennas in the USA. It does in Europe.

I just sent another email to Flarm asking.

Does the Flarm Fusion transmit and receive on both A and B antennas in the USA with FCC approval?

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A and B Flarm Antennas.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>
>
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com
>

That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B" antenna.
Isn't that like buying a license to active the passenger side seat
belt in a car? Or the rear brakes?

--
Dan
5J

[Moshe Braner]

On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A and
>> B Flarm Antennas.
>>
>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard
>> www.craggyaero.com
>>
>
> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B" antenna.
> Â*Isn't that like buying a license to active the passenger side seat
> belt in a car?Â* Or the rear brakes?
>

Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on
working after the firmware "expires"? (As long as the data packets are
still compatible.)

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
> On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A and B Flarm Antennas.
>>>
>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard
>>> www.craggyaero.com
>>>
>>
>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B" antenna. **Isn't that like
>> buying a license to active the passenger side seat belt in a car?* Or the rear brakes?
>>
>
> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on working after the
> firmware "expires"?* (As long as the data packets are still compatible.)
>
Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated by law. Do you want to
go there with PowerFlarm? :^(

Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying an optional feature") is
like buying the "primo" optional interior for your new car, except you can do it anytime, even
years after the purchase, unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included everything
that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead letting you pay for only what you need?


Moshe: They give me the updates FREE anytime I want one. I'm not going to whine about the 10
minutes it takes me to read the update instructions and load it into the glider. The present
system seems like a good compromise: all units are no more than 1 year behind in capability, at
no $ cost, and very little time and effort. As pilots, we are required to "update" our gliders
every year with an inspection, to "update" the pilot every two years with a flight review, to
keep our charts and database current yearly or less, to "update" our parachute every 180 days -
I think we should expect a pilot to also handle updating Flarm!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[kinsell]

On 11/19/20 11:21 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
>> On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>>>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A
>>>> and B Flarm Antennas.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard
>>>> www.craggyaero.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B"
>>> antenna. Â*Â*Isn't that like buying a license to active the passenger
>>> side seat belt in a car?Â* Or the rear brakes?
>>>
>>
>> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on
>> working after the firmware "expires"?Â* (As long as the data packets
>> are still compatible.)
>>
> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated
> by law. Do you want to go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
>
> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying an
> optional feature") is like buying the "primo" optional interior for your
> new car, except you can do it anytime, even years after the purchase,
> unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included everything
> that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead letting you pay
> for only what you need?
>
>
> Moshe: They give me the updates FREE anytime I want one. I'm not going
> to whine about the 10 minutes it takes me to read the update
> instructions and load it into the glider. The present system seems like
> a good compromise: all units are no more than 1 year behind in
> capability, at no $ cost, and very little time and effort. As pilots, we
> are required to "update" our gliders every year with an inspection, to
> "update" the pilot every two years with a flight review, to keep our
> charts and database current yearly or less, to "update" our parachute
> every 180 days - I think we should expect a pilot to also handle
> updating Flarm!
>

I think Dan was talking about paying extra to turn on features, such as
audio output jack, IGC logging, ENL for IGC logging, using the B
antenna, etc. This new PowerFlarm makes that stuff standard, rather
than an la carte.

The documentation provided by Richard shows the flarm B antenna being
usable as standard, but as a receive only antenna. I expect it can
transmit, but only if the FCC ever approves that.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On this page I show it as a feature bottom of table..

http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm

We will see when Flarm answers the question I emailed this morning.

Does the Fusion transmit Flarm on both A & B antennas FCC approved in the USA.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Moshe Braner]

On 11/19/2020 1:21 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
>> On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>>>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A
>>>> and B Flarm Antennas.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard
>>>> www.craggyaero.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B"
>>> antenna. Â*Â*Isn't that like buying a license to active the passenger
>>> side seat belt in a car?Â* Or the rear brakes?
>>>
>>
>> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on
>> working after the firmware "expires"?Â* (As long as the data packets
>> are still compatible.)
>>
> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated
> by law. Do you want to go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
>
> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying an
> optional feature") is like buying the "primo" optional interior for your
> new car, except you can do it anytime, even years after the purchase,
> unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included everything
> that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead letting you pay
> for only what you need?
>
>
> Moshe: They give me the updates FREE anytime I want one. I'm not going
> to whine about the 10 minutes it takes me to read the update
> instructions and load it into the glider. The present system seems like
> a good compromise: all units are no more than 1 year behind in
> capability, at no $ cost, and very little time and effort. As pilots, we
> are required to "update" our gliders every year with an inspection, to
> "update" the pilot every two years with a flight review, to keep our
> charts and database current yearly or less, to "update" our parachute
> every 180 days - I think we should expect a pilot to also handle
> updating Flarm!
>

I have no problem with the updates, I do them, and certainly recommend
everybody do them. My problem is with it stopping to operate if for
whatever reason somebody didn't do the update yet, even if in fact the
data exchanged still allows interoperability. That is an unnecessary
hit to safety, for everybody around. And it may have contributed to the
recent collision we were discussing. There are better ways to nudge
people to update the firmware.

[Moshe Braner]

On 11/19/2020 1:21 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
>> On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>>>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A
>>>> and B Flarm Antennas.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard
>>>> www.craggyaero.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B"
>>> antenna. Â*Â*Isn't that like buying a license to active the passenger
>>> side seat belt in a car?Â* Or the rear brakes?
>>>
>>
>> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on
>> working after the firmware "expires"?Â* (As long as the data packets
>> are still compatible.)
>>
> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated
> by law. Do you want to go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
>
> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying an
> optional feature") is like buying the "primo" optional interior for your
> new car, except you can do it anytime, even years after the purchase,
> unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included everything
> that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead letting you pay
> for only what you need?
>

I also agree with Dan that having to buy a license to activate the "B"
antenna is ridiculous. Yes it's an optional feature, but it shouldn't
be. They've already developed this feature and it's built into the
device. And it is important for the safety benefit. That's different
from some of the other optional features like IGC-certified logging,
which are separate from the collision avoidance purpose, and they can
make those who want that feature pay extra while keeping the price lower
(?) for the rest.

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/19/20 11:21 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
>> On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>>>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A
>>>> and B Flarm Antennas.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard
>>>> www.craggyaero.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B"
>>> antenna. Â*Â*Isn't that like buying a license to active the passenger
>>> side seat belt in a car?Â* Or the rear brakes?
>>>
>>
>> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on
>> working after the firmware "expires"?Â* (As long as the data packets
>> are still compatible.)
>>
> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated
> by law. Do you want to go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
>
> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying an
> optional feature") is like buying the "primo" optional interior for your
> new car, except you can do it anytime, even years after the purchase,
> unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included everything
> that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead letting you pay
> for only what you need?
>
>
> Moshe: They give me the updates FREE anytime I want one. I'm not going
> to whine about the 10 minutes it takes me to read the update
> instructions and load it into the glider. The present system seems like
> a good compromise: all units are no more than 1 year behind in
> capability, at no $ cost, and very little time and effort. As pilots, we
> are required to "update" our gliders every year with an inspection, to
> "update" the pilot every two years with a flight review, to keep our
> charts and database current yearly or less, to "update" our parachute
> every 180 days - I think we should expect a pilot to also handle
> updating Flarm!
>

Eric,

A lot is made of such features as IGC recording. But, since my glider
happens to have an engine, the IGC recording is useless unless I buy a
license for it. The firmware has all been written and is installed and,
with a few characters inserted during the "installation", it will function.

Fortunately, I knew that going in and did not need an ENL license. My
ClearNav and ClearNav vario each perform the engine noise recording
function and at zero extra cost. Now I suppose ClearNav could disable
the function, lower their price by $50 and then charge $50 to enable the
function but I think that would just **** people off.

--
Dan
5J

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/19/20 1:58 PM, kinsell wrote:
> On 11/19/20 11:21 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
>>> On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>>>>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A
>>>>> and B Flarm Antennas.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard
>>>>> www.craggyaero.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B"
>>>> antenna. Â*Â*Isn't that like buying a license to active the passenger
>>>> side seat belt in a car?Â* Or the rear brakes?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on
>>> working after the firmware "expires"?Â* (As long as the data packets
>>> are still compatible.)
>>>
>> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated
>> by law. Do you want to go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
>>
>> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying
>> an optional feature") is like buying the "primo" optional interior for
>> your new car, except you can do it anytime, even years after the
>> purchase, unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included
>> everything that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead
>> letting you pay for only what you need?
>>
>>
>> Moshe: They give me the updates FREE anytime I want one. I'm not going
>> to whine about the 10 minutes it takes me to read the update
>> instructions and load it into the glider. The present system seems
>> like a good compromise: all units are no more than 1 year behind in
>> capability, at no $ cost, and very little time and effort. As pilots,
>> we are required to "update" our gliders every year with an inspection,
>> to "update" the pilot every two years with a flight review, to keep
>> our charts and database current yearly or less, to "update" our
>> parachute every 180 days - I think we should expect a pilot to also
>> handle updating Flarm!
>>
>
> I think Dan was talking about paying extra to turn on features, such as
> audio output jack, IGC logging, ENL for IGC logging, using the B
> antenna, etc.Â* This new PowerFlarm makes that stuff standard, rather
> than an la carte.
>
> The documentation provided by Richard shows the flarm B antenna being
> usable as standard, but as a receive only antenna.Â* I expect it can
> transmit, but only if the FCC ever approves that.

Oh crap! You mean I'd have to pay to have the audio jack enabled,
too??? Good thing my ClearNav has its own Bitchin' Betty and at no
extra charge. ;-)

--
Dan
5J

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/19/20 3:06 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 11/19/2020 1:21 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
>>> On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>>>>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A
>>>>> and B Flarm Antennas.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard
>>>>> www.craggyaero.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B"
>>>> antenna. Â*Â*Isn't that like buying a license to active the passenger
>>>> side seat belt in a car?Â* Or the rear brakes?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on
>>> working after the firmware "expires"?Â* (As long as the data packets
>>> are still compatible.)
>>>
>> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated
>> by law. Do you want to go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
>>
>> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying
>> an optional feature") is like buying the "primo" optional interior for
>> your new car, except you can do it anytime, even years after the
>> purchase, unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included
>> everything that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead
>> letting you pay for only what you need?
>>
>>
>> Moshe: They give me the updates FREE anytime I want one. I'm not going
>> to whine about the 10 minutes it takes me to read the update
>> instructions and load it into the glider. The present system seems
>> like a good compromise: all units are no more than 1 year behind in
>> capability, at no $ cost, and very little time and effort. As pilots,
>> we are required to "update" our gliders every year with an inspection,
>> to "update" the pilot every two years with a flight review, to keep
>> our charts and database current yearly or less, to "update" our
>> parachute every 180 days - I think we should expect a pilot to also
>> handle updating Flarm!
>>
>
> I have no problem with the updates, I do them, and certainly recommend
> everybody do them.Â* My problem is with it stopping to operate if for
> whatever reason somebody didn't do the update yet, even if in fact the
> data exchanged still allows interoperability.Â* That is an unnecessary
> hit to safety, for everybody around.Â* And it may have contributed to the
> recent collision we were discussing.Â* There are better ways to nudge
> people to update the firmware.

I just updated to firmware version 7.02 today. According to my computer
files, the date on the previous firmware was December 2019, so I guess I
was in no danger of a loss of function. I went back to my glider's
logbook and added this update to the end of the last annual inspection
writeup. Next year, at annual, my IA will remind me that I need to
update the Flarm.

--
Dan
5J

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 2:06 PM:
> On 11/19/2020 1:21 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
>>> On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>>>>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A and B Flarm Antennas.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard
>>>>> www.craggyaero.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B" antenna. **Isn't that like
>>>> buying a license to active the passenger side seat belt in a car?* Or the rear brakes?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on working after the
>>> firmware "expires"?* (As long as the data packets are still compatible.)
>>>
>> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated by law. Do you want to
>> go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
>>
>> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying an optional feature") is
>> like buying the "primo" optional interior for your new car, except you can do it anytime,
>> even years after the purchase, unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included
>> everything that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead letting you pay for only
>> what you need?
>>
>>
>> Moshe: They give me the updates FREE anytime I want one. I'm not going to whine about the 10
>> minutes it takes me to read the update instructions and load it into the glider. The present
>> system seems like a good compromise: all units are no more than 1 year behind in capability,
>> at no $ cost, and very little time and effort. As pilots, we are required to "update" our
>> gliders every year with an inspection, to "update" the pilot every two years with a flight
>> review, to keep our charts and database current yearly or less, to "update" our parachute
>> every 180 days - I think we should expect a pilot to also handle updating Flarm!
>>
>
> I have no problem with the updates, I do them, and certainly recommend everybody do them.* My
> problem is with it stopping to operate if for whatever reason somebody didn't do the update
> yet, even if in fact the data exchanged still allows interoperability.* That is an unnecessary
> hit to safety, for everybody around.* And it may have contributed to the recent collision we
> were discussing.* There are better ways to nudge people to update the firmware.

I'm not sure it goes inoperative to nudge the pilot; instead, it may be to prevent the need to
"dumb down" the new versions that have to cope with the outdated unit while is within range.
But the larger issue is: What if the pilot ignores or doesn't notice the nudges, how long
should the unit operate with outdated firmware? One month? One year? 5 years?

You are counting on the pilot doing the right thing later instead of on time, and I don't see
any reason he won't continue to postpone the update; after all, "it seems to be working fine -
what's the rush"?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dan Marotta wrote on 11/19/2020 2:13 PM:
> On 11/19/20 11:21 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
>>> On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>>>>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A and B Flarm Antennas.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard
>>>>> www.craggyaero.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B" antenna. **Isn't that like
>>>> buying a license to active the passenger side seat belt in a car?* Or the rear brakes?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on working after the
>>> firmware "expires"?* (As long as the data packets are still compatible.)
>>>
>> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated by law. Do you want to
>> go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
>>
>> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying an optional feature") is
>> like buying the "primo" optional interior for your new car, except you can do it anytime,
>> even years after the purchase, unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included
>> everything that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead letting you pay for only
>> what you need?
>>
>>
>> Moshe: They give me the updates FREE anytime I want one. I'm not going to whine about the 10
>> minutes it takes me to read the update instructions and load it into the glider. The present
>> system seems like a good compromise: all units are no more than 1 year behind in capability,
>> at no $ cost, and very little time and effort. As pilots, we are required to "update" our
>> gliders every year with an inspection, to "update" the pilot every two years with a flight
>> review, to keep our charts and database current yearly or less, to "update" our parachute
>> every 180 days - I think we should expect a pilot to also handle updating Flarm!
>>
>
> Eric,
>
> A lot is made of such features as IGC recording.* But, since my glider happens to have an
> engine, the IGC recording is useless unless I buy a license for it.* The firmware has all been
> written and is installed and, with a few characters inserted during the "installation", it will
> function.
>
> Fortunately, I knew that going in and did not need an ENL license.* My ClearNav and ClearNav
> vario each perform the engine noise recording function and at zero extra cost.* Now I suppose
> ClearNav could disable the function, lower their price by $50 and then charge $50 to enable the
> function but I think that would just **** people off.

My guess is they chose to license it for exactly the reason you state: most pilot will have
varios, loggers, or flight computers already doing the IGC logging. By disabling the Flarm IGC
logging and charging less, they expect to get more people to buy their unit. That seems like a
good deal - "you only pay for what you need".

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 1:21:40 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
> > On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> >>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A and B Flarm Antennas.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Richard
> >>> www.craggyaero.com
> >>>
> >>
> >> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B" antenna. Isn't that like
> >> buying a license to active the passenger side seat belt in a car? Or the rear brakes?
> >>
> >
> > Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on working after the
> > firmware "expires"? (As long as the data packets are still compatible.)
> >
> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated by law. Do you want to
> go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
>
> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying an optional feature") is
> like buying the "primo" optional interior for your new car, except you can do it anytime, even
> years after the purchase, unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included everything
> that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead letting you pay for only what you need?
>
>
> Moshe: They give me the updates FREE anytime I want one. I'm not going to whine about the 10
> minutes it takes me to read the update instructions and load it into the glider. The present
> system seems like a good compromise: all units are no more than 1 year behind in capability, at
> no $ cost, and very little time and effort. As pilots, we are required to "update" our gliders
> every year with an inspection, to "update" the pilot every two years with a flight review, to
> keep our charts and database current yearly or less, to "update" our parachute every 180 days -
> I think we should expect a pilot to also handle updating Flarm!
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Eric, your comparison is way out of place. We are talking here about buying a safety device to prevent collision and as a standard you are getting 60 maybe 70% protection because of the antenna placement, and you have to pay extra to actually get what the Flarm advertises the unit intends to do. This is total crap! Giving people a sense of security for the base price tells me that they care more about profits than safety. They should not be selling these features as extra, either they are needed or they are not.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

With the new Fusion almost everything is included.

http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/19/20 3:39 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Dan Marotta wrote on 11/19/2020 2:13 PM:
>> On 11/19/20 11:21 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
>>>> On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>>> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>>>>>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A
>>>>>> and B Flarm Antennas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>> www.craggyaero.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B"
>>>>> antenna. Â*Â*Isn't that like buying a license to active the passenger
>>>>> side seat belt in a car?Â* Or the rear brakes?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps
>>>> on working after the firmware "expires"?Â* (As long as the data
>>>> packets are still compatible.)
>>>>
>>> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are
>>> mandated by law. Do you want to go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
>>>
>>> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying
>>> an optional feature") is like buying the "primo" optional interior
>>> for your new car, except you can do it anytime, even years after the
>>> purchase, unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included
>>> everything that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead
>>> letting you pay for only what you need?
>>>
>>>
>>> Moshe: They give me the updates FREE anytime I want one. I'm not
>>> going to whine about the 10 minutes it takes me to read the update
>>> instructions and load it into the glider. The present system seems
>>> like a good compromise: all units are no more than 1 year behind in
>>> capability, at no $ cost, and very little time and effort. As pilots,
>>> we are required to "update" our gliders every year with an
>>> inspection, to "update" the pilot every two years with a flight
>>> review, to keep our charts and database current yearly or less, to
>>> "update" our parachute every 180 days - I think we should expect a
>>> pilot to also handle updating Flarm!
>>>
>>
>> Eric,
>>
>> A lot is made of such features as IGC recording.Â* But, since my glider
>> happens to have an engine, the IGC recording is useless unless I buy a
>> license for it.Â* The firmware has all been written and is installed
>> and, with a few characters inserted during the "installation", it will
>> function.
>>
>> Fortunately, I knew that going in and did not need an ENL license.Â* My
>> ClearNav and ClearNav vario each perform the engine noise recording
>> function and at zero extra cost.Â* Now I suppose ClearNav could disable
>> the function, lower their price by $50 and then charge $50 to enable
>> the function but I think that would just **** people off.
>
> My guess is they chose to license it for exactly the reason you state:
> most pilot will have varios, loggers, or flight computers already doing
> the IGC logging. By disabling the Flarm IGC logging and charging less,
> they expect to get more people to buy their unit. That seems like a good
> deal - "you only pay for what you need".
>

That's an odd form of capitalism. Giving more than expected increases
market share historically. Oh, wait! There ain't no competition...

Frankly, I don't care about the IGC license as I have other avenues.
Audio is handled by my ClearNav, so no problem there. The second
antenna, however, is a safety item and should be included. The license
was already installed in my unit when I bought it. BTW, I would have
paid for that one, but would grumble about it.

--
Dan
5J

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dan Marotta wrote on 11/19/2020 4:59 PM:
>> My guess is they chose to license it for exactly the reason you state: most pilot will have
>> varios, loggers, or flight computers already doing the IGC logging. By disabling the Flarm
>> IGC logging and charging less, they expect to get more people to buy their unit. That seems
>> like a good deal - "you only pay for what you need".
>>
>
> That's an odd form of capitalism.* Giving more than expected increases market share
> historically.* Oh, wait!* There ain't no competition...

It's not a unique marketing technique: LXNav also uses licenses for the AHRS function in flight
computer, Air Avionics for functions in their iGlide software, ClearNav for their vario, etc.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[waremark]

On Thursday, 19 November 2020 at 22:05:04 UTC, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 11/19/2020 1:21 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
> >> On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >>> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> >>>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A
> >>>> and B Flarm Antennas.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Richard
> >>>> www.craggyaero.com
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B"
> >>> antenna. Isn't that like buying a license to active the passenger
> >>> side seat belt in a car? Or the rear brakes?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on
> >> working after the firmware "expires"? (As long as the data packets
> >> are still compatible.)
> >>
> > Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated
> > by law. Do you want to go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
> >
> > Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying an
> > optional feature") is like buying the "primo" optional interior for your
> > new car, except you can do it anytime, even years after the purchase,
> > unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included everything
> > that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead letting you pay
> > for only what you need?
> >
> >
> > Moshe: They give me the updates FREE anytime I want one. I'm not going
> > to whine about the 10 minutes it takes me to read the update
> > instructions and load it into the glider. The present system seems like
> > a good compromise: all units are no more than 1 year behind in
> > capability, at no $ cost, and very little time and effort. As pilots, we
> > are required to "update" our gliders every year with an inspection, to
> > "update" the pilot every two years with a flight review, to keep our
> > charts and database current yearly or less, to "update" our parachute
> > every 180 days - I think we should expect a pilot to also handle
> > updating Flarm!
> >
> I have no problem with the updates, I do them, and certainly recommend
> everybody do them. My problem is with it stopping to operate if for
> whatever reason somebody didn't do the update yet, even if in fact the
> data exchanged still allows interoperability. That is an unnecessary
> hit to safety, for everybody around. And it may have contributed to the
> recent collision we were discussing. There are better ways to nudge
> people to update the firmware.

What makes you think that it does stop operating if somebody did not do the update? I have never seen that said. What I have seen said is that if everybody updates they guarantee there will be full compatibility - quite different.

[Moshe Braner]

On 11/20/2020 9:37 AM, waremark wrote:
> On Thursday, 19 November 2020 at 22:05:04 UTC, Moshe Braner wrote:
>> On 11/19/2020 1:21 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 9:31 AM:
>>>> On 11/19/2020 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>>> On 11/18/20 4:41 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>>>>>> According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A
>>>>>> and B Flarm Antennas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>> www.craggyaero.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B"
>>>>> antenna. Isn't that like buying a license to active the passenger
>>>>> side seat belt in a car? Or the rear brakes?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on
>>>> working after the firmware "expires"? (As long as the data packets
>>>> are still compatible.)
>>>>
>>> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated
>>> by law. Do you want to go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
>>>
>>> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying an
>>> optional feature") is like buying the "primo" optional interior for your
>>> new car, except you can do it anytime, even years after the purchase,
>>> unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included everything
>>> that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead letting you pay
>>> for only what you need?
>>>
>>>
>>> Moshe: They give me the updates FREE anytime I want one. I'm not going
>>> to whine about the 10 minutes it takes me to read the update
>>> instructions and load it into the glider. The present system seems like
>>> a good compromise: all units are no more than 1 year behind in
>>> capability, at no $ cost, and very little time and effort. As pilots, we
>>> are required to "update" our gliders every year with an inspection, to
>>> "update" the pilot every two years with a flight review, to keep our
>>> charts and database current yearly or less, to "update" our parachute
>>> every 180 days - I think we should expect a pilot to also handle
>>> updating Flarm!
>>>
>> I have no problem with the updates, I do them, and certainly recommend
>> everybody do them. My problem is with it stopping to operate if for
>> whatever reason somebody didn't do the update yet, even if in fact the
>> data exchanged still allows interoperability. That is an unnecessary
>> hit to safety, for everybody around. And it may have contributed to the
>> recent collision we were discussing. There are better ways to nudge
>> people to update the firmware.
>
> What makes you think that it does stop operating if somebody did not do the update? I have never seen that said. What I have seen said is that if everybody updates they guarantee there will be full compatibility - quite different.
>

"The firmware expiration date is not related to the aircraft specific
update cycle/date. The firmware will not expire as long as the firmware
is kept up-to-date according to the AMP. The expiry is always at least
12 months plus a few months of margin in the future when downloaded from
flarm.com."

"If the annual update cycle has expired but the firmware has not yet
expired, the device will in most cases continue to work until firmware
expiry."

"After the expiration date, the system will issue a continuous hard
warning and will not operate."

which seems to be contradicted by:

"If the annual firmware update is not applied, the device may no longer
be interoperable with other FLARM devices without any notification or
warning."

- all quotes from:
https://support.flarm.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019573894-How-does-the-annual-update-cycle-relate-to-the-firmware-expiration-date-

IMO, they can (and probably do) include a software version number in the
data packets, and data packets received that are therefore known to be
in an old and unusable format can be ignored. Since versions overlap in
time, I would guess that data packet format changes that make old
formats unusable rarely happen. If the version of a received packet is
not too old to be used, it should be used, for safety's sake. And
transmission should never be turned off by the software just because it
senses that it's "expired", since it does not know whether future
versions can or cannot use the data it is sending.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 2:12 PM:
> On 11/19/2020 1:21 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B" antenna. **Isn't that like
>>>> buying a license to active the passenger side seat belt in a car?* Or the rear brakes?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on working after the
>>> firmware "expires"?* (As long as the data packets are still compatible.)
>>>
>> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated by law. Do you want to
>> go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
>>
>> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying an optional feature") is
>> like buying the "primo" optional interior for your new car, except you can do it anytime,
>> even years after the purchase, unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included
>> everything that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead letting you pay for only
>> what you need?
>>
>
> I also agree with Dan that having to buy a license to activate the "B" antenna is ridiculous.
> Yes it's an optional feature, but it shouldn't be.* They've already developed this feature and
> it's built into the device.* And it is important for the safety benefit.* That's different from
> some of the other optional features like IGC-certified logging, which are separate from the
> collision avoidance purpose, and they can make those who want that feature pay extra while
> keeping the price lower (?) for the rest.
>
The B antenna is not required for safety in my glider. My ASH26E has two antennas in the nose
(Flarm and ADSB), producing excellent range in most directions, and sufficient range to the
rear for collision avoidance. I tried a B antenna on the belly, and it did improve the range at
which I could detect other Flarm units, especially below. Since the unit already had sufficient
range in all directions, the B antenna did not improve it's collision avoidance ability, and I
removed it after 10 or so flights.

I think my experience would apply to almost any Schleicher glider - they all use essentially
the same fuselage, starting with the ASW24, which do not have carbon in the nose. That's a lot
of gliders.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[waremark]

On Friday, 20 November 2020 at 16:10:40 UTC, Moshe Braner wrote:

> "The firmware expiration date is not related to the aircraft specific
> update cycle/date. The firmware will not expire as long as the firmware
> is kept up-to-date according to the AMP. The expiry is always at least
> 12 months plus a few months of margin in the future when downloaded from
> flarm.com."
>
> "If the annual update cycle has expired but the firmware has not yet
> expired, the device will in most cases continue to work until firmware
> expiry."
>
> "After the expiration date, the system will issue a continuous hard
> warning and will not operate."
>
What is meant by firmware expiry date, since this is different from annual update expiry date?

Personally I don't intend to explore how my device behaves when not updated - I have it updated annually during the ARC process, although I did not know it was a requirement until I read that above from Martin Gregorie. I don't normally use the igc files from my device (igc files are uploaded by wifi from my LX9000 to SeeYou Cloud before I get out of the glider, so much more convenient), but I do extract and look at one at the start of the year to check that it is now using the latest firmware.

Incidentally, I did pay for the 2nd aerial option, and having a European device it should transmit as well as receive. I flew with that setup for two seasons before discovering that the 2nd aerial option was not active and the blade aerial on the bottom of the glider was not doing anything. The unit had been provided incorrect and was then sorted out by the UK supplier Navboys. To the best of my knowledge it now works - but I don't actually know whether it does.

[Mark Zivley[_3_]]

To the best of my knowledge it now works - but I don't actually know whether it does.


Take a recent Flarm flight log and upload it to the Flarm analyzer. It will show you the results for the A and the B antenna...



http://flarm.com/support/tools-software/flarm-range-analyzer/

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 11:44:25 -0800, waremark wrote:

> Personally I don't intend to explore how my device behaves when not
> updated - I have it updated annually during the ARC process, although I
> did not know it was a requirement until I read that above from Martin
> Gregorie.
>
Mark, for at least the last 2-3 years my club's inspectors have verbally
checked when I'd last updated the FLARM firmware, but at my glider's most
recent annual (March 2020) I noticed it is now on the checklist.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[George Haeh]

"I think my experience would apply to almost any Schleicher glider - they all use essentially
the same fuselage, starting with the ASW24, which do not have carbon in the nose."

The fuselage mold may be the same, but the layup in newer gliders is carbon fiber.

I found a major improvement in range when I moved from a single antenna over the glareshield to dual antennas on the canopy sides of my ASW-27.

I did Range Analysis on six installations and documented the results in the 2019 Free Flight. Look for Antenna Placement:

http://sac.ca/index.php/en/free-flight-magazine-2/2010s/2019-free-flight-vol-libre

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

George Haeh wrote on 11/20/2020 1:42 PM:
> "I think my experience would apply to almost any Schleicher glider - they all use essentially
> the same fuselage, starting with the ASW24, which do not have carbon in the nose."
>
> The fuselage mold may be the same, but the layup in newer gliders is carbon fiber.
>
> I found a major improvement in range when I moved from a single antenna over the glareshield to dual antennas on the canopy sides of my ASW-27.
>
> I did Range Analysis on six installations and documented the results in the 2019 Free Flight. Look for Antenna Placement:
>
> http://sac.ca/index.php/en/free-flight-magazine-2/2010s/2019-free-flight-vol-libre

Are you certain the ASW27 has carbon fiber in the nose (the area besides the pilot's feet)? It
was designed at the same time as the ASH26E, which doesn't have any carbon in that area. Same
question for the ASW28, ASG29, etc - I'm wondering when/if the addition of carbon in the nose
began.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[George Haeh]

There's talk the early 27s didn't have significant carbon fiber in the nose cone.

That the PowerFLARM range analysis with a single glareshield antenna in my later build 27 shows poor coverage convinces me there's carbon fiber below. Visual examination shows lots of black stuff in the nose cone.

[kinsell]

On 11/20/20 3:39 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> George Haeh wrote on 11/20/2020 1:42 PM:
>> "I think my experience would apply to almost any Schleicher glider -
>> they all use essentially
>> the same fuselage, starting with the ASW24, which do not have carbon
>> in the nose."
>>
>> The fuselage mold may be the same, but the layup in newer gliders is
>> carbon fiber.
>>
>> I found a major improvement in range when I moved from a single
>> antenna over the glareshield to dual antennas on the canopy sides of
>> my ASW-27.
>>
>> I did Range Analysis on six installations and documented the results
>> in the 2019 Free Flight. Look for Antenna Placement:
>>
>> http://sac.ca/index.php/en/free-flight-magazine-2/2010s/2019-free-flight-vol-libre
>>
>
> Are you certain the ASW27 has carbon fiber in the nose (the area besides
> the pilot's feet)? It was designed at the same time as the ASH26E, which
> doesn't have any carbon in that area. Same question for the ASW28,
> ASG29, etc - I'm wondering when/if the addition of carbon in the nose
> began.
>
>

The '31Mi is all carbon up in the nose.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

George Haeh wrote on 11/20/2020 3:30 PM:
> There's talk the early 27s didn't have significant carbon fiber in the nose cone.
>
> That the PowerFLARM range analysis with a single glareshield antenna in my later build 27 shows poor coverage convinces me there's carbon fiber below. Visual examination shows lots of black stuff in the nose cone.
>
My friend with an ASW27A agrees, saying he has fiberglass, but the ASW27B, 28, and 29 all have
carbon in the nose. Too bad - the nose mounting was easy and effective. My next glider is
supposed to have a Flarm antenna in the fin, so I'm hoping that's all it will need. So, with
Flarm, transponder, and com antennas in the tail, it might be a very busy electromagnetic
nightmare!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[waremark]

On Friday, 20 November 2020 at 19:51:05 UTC, wrote:
> To the best of my knowledge it now works - but I don't actually know whether it does.
> Take a recent Flarm flight log and upload it to the Flarm analyzer. It will show you the results for the A and the B antenna...
>
> http://flarm.com/support/tools-software/flarm-range-analyzer/

I normally use igc files from my LX9000 which don't work with that tool. The LX range analyser does not give me the individual antenna information. I just tried a file from my PF which did have readings from the two antennae - good news. Less good was that one seemed to have very poor range - I don't know which antenna that was. However, the CARP file analyser (Continuous Analyzer of Radio Performance - new to me, apparently accumulates range data from multiple flights) did not appear to find any data, and I had to use the 'Classic Analyser' although my firmware version was 6.82 and the website said CARP should work from 6.80 - so I was only seeing data from one flight, whereas what I got from the LX9000 appeared to be from multiple flights and just showed decent all round reception (minimum of 10k all round).

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 12:31:44 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 2:12 PM:
> > On 11/19/2020 1:21 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B" antenna. Isn't that like
> >>>> buying a license to active the passenger side seat belt in a car? Or the rear brakes?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Maybe if you pay extra they'll sell you the feature where it keeps on working after the
> >>> firmware "expires"? (As long as the data packets are still compatible..)
> >>>
> >> Dan: We have no choice about seat belts and brakes, which are mandated by law. Do you want to
> >> go there with PowerFlarm? :^(
> >>
> >> Dan: Buying a license for an optional feature (also known as "buying an optional feature") is
> >> like buying the "primo" optional interior for your new car, except you can do it anytime,
> >> even years after the purchase, unlike that fancy interior. Would you rather they included
> >> everything that is now optional, and charged you for it, instead letting you pay for only
> >> what you need?
> >>
> >
> > I also agree with Dan that having to buy a license to activate the "B" antenna is ridiculous.
> > Yes it's an optional feature, but it shouldn't be. They've already developed this feature and
> > it's built into the device. And it is important for the safety benefit. That's different from
> > some of the other optional features like IGC-certified logging, which are separate from the
> > collision avoidance purpose, and they can make those who want that feature pay extra while
> > keeping the price lower (?) for the rest.
> >
> The B antenna is not required for safety in my glider. My ASH26E has two antennas in the nose
> (Flarm and ADSB), producing excellent range in most directions, and sufficient range to the
> rear for collision avoidance. I tried a B antenna on the belly, and it did improve the range at
> which I could detect other Flarm units, especially below. Since the unit already had sufficient
> range in all directions, the B antenna did not improve it's collision avoidance ability, and I
> removed it after 10 or so flights.
>
> I think my experience would apply to almost any Schleicher glider - they all use essentially
> the same fuselage, starting with the ASW24, which do not have carbon in the nose. That's a lot
> of gliders.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Eric, you wish what you wrote to be a fact, but in reality you can not have 100% in a glider that uses carbon and has only one antenna. I used to own ASH-26E with Flarm and from experience know there are blind spots. One flight in a competition gaggle would prove it for you. You will not be seen by others all the time and you will not see others all the time on your Flarm if you and they have only 1 antenna.

[Dave Nadler]

On 11/20/2020 7:18 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> My next glider is supposed to have a Flarm antenna in the fin...

Make sure they install the antenna for USA frequency!
Iff that glider ever gets built...

[Ron Gleason]

On Friday, 20 November 2020 at 19:03:47 UTC-7, wrote:
> On 11/20/2020 7:18 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > My next glider is supposed to have a Flarm antenna in the fin...
>
> Make sure they install the antenna for USA frequency!
> Iff that glider ever gets built...
Ouch

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dave Nadler wrote on 11/20/2020 6:03 PM:
> On 11/20/2020 7:18 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> My next glider is supposed to have a Flarm antenna in the fin...
>
> Make sure they install the antenna for USA frequency!
> Iff that glider ever gets built...

Excellent point - something that could be overlooked. I'll remind the dealer.

Two are nearing completion; two others entered production a few weeks ago. Covid restrictions
in Poland (and elsewhere in the supply chain) have delayed things by many months.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Andrzej Kobus wrote on 11/20/2020 5:57 PM:
> On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 12:31:44 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 2:12 PM:
>>> On 11/19/2020 1:21 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B" antenna. Isn't that like

>>>
>>> I also agree with Dan that having to buy a license to activate the "B" antenna is ridiculous.
>>> Yes it's an optional feature, but it shouldn't be. They've already developed this feature and
>>> it's built into the device. And it is important for the safety benefit. That's different from
>>> some of the other optional features like IGC-certified logging, which are separate from the
>>> collision avoidance purpose, and they can make those who want that feature pay extra while
>>> keeping the price lower (?) for the rest.
>>>
>> The B antenna is not required for safety in my glider. My ASH26E has two antennas in the nose
>> (Flarm and ADSB), producing excellent range in most directions, and sufficient range to the
>> rear for collision avoidance. I tried a B antenna on the belly, and it did improve the range at
>> which I could detect other Flarm units, especially below. Since the unit already had sufficient
>> range in all directions, the B antenna did not improve it's collision avoidance ability, and I
>> removed it after 10 or so flights.
>>
>> I think my experience would apply to almost any Schleicher glider - they all use essentially
>> the same fuselage, starting with the ASW24, which do not have carbon in the nose. That's a lot
>> of gliders.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> Eric, you wish what you wrote to be a fact, but in reality you can not have 100% in a glider that uses carbon and has only one antenna. I used to own ASH-26E with Flarm and from experience know there are blind spots. One flight in a competition gaggle would prove it for you. You will not be seen by others all the time and you will not see others all the time on your Flarm if you and they have only 1 antenna.
>
The gaggles I've flown in did not expose those problems, perhaps because they have not been as
dense as the worst contest gaggles sometimes are. Did your 26E have the antennas mounted in the
nose? Where was the worst blind spot?

In general, I would expect the signal strength from nearby gliders (+/- 500'vertically, 1000'
horizontally) in a gaggle to overwhelm all but the very worst antenna placement.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Moshe Braner]

On 11/21/2020 8:54 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> ...
>
> In general, I would expect the signal strength from nearby gliders (+/-
> 500'vertically, 1000' horizontally) in a gaggle to overwhelm all but the
> very worst antenna placement.
>

Good point. Receivers can be very sensitive. Years ago GPS receivers
were finicky, had to put them outdoors for 15 minutes to get a fix, etc.
Nowadays those in recent model cellphones work just fine on the
passenger seat of a metal-body car. Note that the GPS satellites are
generally low on the horizon. And very far away. Presumably the
signals come in through windows and bounce around inside the car. No
idea if the FLARM receivers are comparably sensitive. Nor whether
carbon fiber reflects radio waves as well as sheet metal does.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Saturday, November 21, 2020 at 8:54:55 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Andrzej Kobus wrote on 11/20/2020 5:57 PM:
> > On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 12:31:44 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 2:12 PM:
> >>> On 11/19/2020 1:21 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B" antenna. Isn't that like
>
> >>>
> >>> I also agree with Dan that having to buy a license to activate the "B" antenna is ridiculous.
> >>> Yes it's an optional feature, but it shouldn't be. They've already developed this feature and
> >>> it's built into the device. And it is important for the safety benefit. That's different from
> >>> some of the other optional features like IGC-certified logging, which are separate from the
> >>> collision avoidance purpose, and they can make those who want that feature pay extra while
> >>> keeping the price lower (?) for the rest.
> >>>
> >> The B antenna is not required for safety in my glider. My ASH26E has two antennas in the nose
> >> (Flarm and ADSB), producing excellent range in most directions, and sufficient range to the
> >> rear for collision avoidance. I tried a B antenna on the belly, and it did improve the range at
> >> which I could detect other Flarm units, especially below. Since the unit already had sufficient
> >> range in all directions, the B antenna did not improve it's collision avoidance ability, and I
> >> removed it after 10 or so flights.
> >>
> >> I think my experience would apply to almost any Schleicher glider - they all use essentially
> >> the same fuselage, starting with the ASW24, which do not have carbon in the nose. That's a lot
> >> of gliders.
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >
> > Eric, you wish what you wrote to be a fact, but in reality you can not have 100% in a glider that uses carbon and has only one antenna. I used to own ASH-26E with Flarm and from experience know there are blind spots. One flight in a competition gaggle would prove it for you. You will not be seen by others all the time and you will not see others all the time on your Flarm if you and they have only 1 antenna.
> >
> The gaggles I've flown in did not expose those problems, perhaps because they have not been as
> dense as the worst contest gaggles sometimes are. Did your 26E have the antennas mounted in the
> nose? Where was the worst blind spot?
>
> In general, I would expect the signal strength from nearby gliders (+/- 500'vertically, 1000'
> horizontally) in a gaggle to overwhelm all but the very worst antenna placement.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

My antenna was mounted in the nose and the worst coverage was to the back, above the glider, very dangerous blind spot. I then moved the antenna to the glare shield, improved the above the glider and worsened below the glider.. Blind spot below the glider was more acceptable to me.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Andrzej Kobus wrote on 11/21/2020 10:53 AM:
> On Saturday, November 21, 2020 at 8:54:55 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Andrzej Kobus wrote on 11/20/2020 5:57 PM:

>>>> The B antenna is not required for safety in my glider. My ASH26E has two antennas in the nose
>>>> (Flarm and ADSB), producing excellent range in most directions, and sufficient range to the
>>>> rear for collision avoidance. I tried a B antenna on the belly, and it did improve the range at
>>>> which I could detect other Flarm units, especially below. Since the unit already had sufficient
>>>> range in all directions, the B antenna did not improve it's collision avoidance ability, and I
>>>> removed it after 10 or so flights.
>>>>
>>>> I think my experience would apply to almost any Schleicher glider - they all use essentially
>>>> the same fuselage, starting with the ASW24, which do not have carbon in the nose. That's a lot
>>>> of gliders.

>>>
>>> Eric, you wish what you wrote to be a fact, but in reality you can not have 100% in a glider that uses carbon and has only one antenna. I used to own ASH-26E with Flarm and from experience know there are blind spots. One flight in a competition gaggle would prove it for you. You will not be seen by others all the time and you will not see others all the time on your Flarm if you and they have only 1 antenna.
>>>
>> The gaggles I've flown in did not expose those problems, perhaps because they have not been as
>> dense as the worst contest gaggles sometimes are. Did your 26E have the antennas mounted in the
>> nose? Where was the worst blind spot?
>>
>> In general, I would expect the signal strength from nearby gliders (+/- 500'vertically, 1000'
>> horizontally) in a gaggle to overwhelm all but the very worst antenna placement.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> My antenna was mounted in the nose and the worst coverage was to the back, above the glider, very dangerous blind spot. I then moved the antenna to the glare shield, improved the above the glider and worsened below the glider.. Blind spot below the glider was more acceptable to me.
>
Curious. The behind and above has never been a dead spot for me, meaning "while thermaling
gliders above and behind were always detected). No one has ever mentioned a problem seeing me
from that position, either.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/21/20 11:53 AM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Saturday, November 21, 2020 at 8:54:55 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Andrzej Kobus wrote on 11/20/2020 5:57 PM:
>>> On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 12:31:44 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/19/2020 2:12 PM:
>>>>> On 11/19/2020 1:21 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That looks to me like you can buy a license to activate the "B" antenna. Isn't that like
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also agree with Dan that having to buy a license to activate the "B" antenna is ridiculous.
>>>>> Yes it's an optional feature, but it shouldn't be. They've already developed this feature and
>>>>> it's built into the device. And it is important for the safety benefit. That's different from
>>>>> some of the other optional features like IGC-certified logging, which are separate from the
>>>>> collision avoidance purpose, and they can make those who want that feature pay extra while
>>>>> keeping the price lower (?) for the rest.
>>>>>
>>>> The B antenna is not required for safety in my glider. My ASH26E has two antennas in the nose
>>>> (Flarm and ADSB), producing excellent range in most directions, and sufficient range to the
>>>> rear for collision avoidance. I tried a B antenna on the belly, and it did improve the range at
>>>> which I could detect other Flarm units, especially below. Since the unit already had sufficient
>>>> range in all directions, the B antenna did not improve it's collision avoidance ability, and I
>>>> removed it after 10 or so flights.
>>>>
>>>> I think my experience would apply to almost any Schleicher glider - they all use essentially
>>>> the same fuselage, starting with the ASW24, which do not have carbon in the nose. That's a lot
>>>> of gliders.
>>>> --
>>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>>>
>>> Eric, you wish what you wrote to be a fact, but in reality you can not have 100% in a glider that uses carbon and has only one antenna. I used to own ASH-26E with Flarm and from experience know there are blind spots. One flight in a competition gaggle would prove it for you. You will not be seen by others all the time and you will not see others all the time on your Flarm if you and they have only 1 antenna.
>>>
>> The gaggles I've flown in did not expose those problems, perhaps because they have not been as
>> dense as the worst contest gaggles sometimes are. Did your 26E have the antennas mounted in the
>> nose? Where was the worst blind spot?
>>
>> In general, I would expect the signal strength from nearby gliders (+/- 500'vertically, 1000'
>> horizontally) in a gaggle to overwhelm all but the very worst antenna placement.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> My antenna was mounted in the nose and the worst coverage was to the back, above the glider, very dangerous blind spot. I then moved the antenna to the glare shield, improved the above the glider and worsened below the glider. Blind spot below the glider was more acceptable to me.
>

I have the A antenna on the glare shield and an external blade B antenna
under the nose bowl of the Stemme. Below is much improved since moving
the B antenna to the bottom but, due to the curvature of the lower
fuselage, the aft view is not as good as it could be if the antenna was
aft of the landing gear.

--
Dan
5J

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

I just heard from Flarm about the Fusion. It transmits and receives on both A and B!

Yes. There are no FCC regulations against transmitting on both radios. This is how Fusion was FCC certified.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[George Haeh]

Good to hear. Does that mean the Core 1.1 is also allowed to transmit (and doing so) on both antennas in the US and Canada?

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Sunday, November 22, 2020 at 3:44:51 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Good to hear. Does that mean the Core 1.1 is also allowed to transmit (and doing so) on both antennas in the US and Canada?


Not for the PowerFlarm Core as it was not FCC Certified with that configuration.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Nicholas Kennedy]

$1526 For this new Flarm unit is a good deal.
If you don't have Flarm in your plane, nows the time.
It Works and works great.
Nick
T

[George Haeh]

"Not for the PowerFlarm Core as it was not FCC Certified with that configuration"

Now that the FCC has approved dual antenna transmit in the Fusion, it shouldn't be that difficult for Flarm to persuade the FCC and "Innovation" Canada to amend approvals for the Core. Likely the transmit components are pretty much the same.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Sunday, November 22, 2020 at 6:28:32 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> "Not for the PowerFlarm Core as it was not FCC Certified with that configuration"
> Now that the FCC has approved dual antenna transmit in the Fusion, it shouldn't be that difficult for Flarm to persuade the FCC and "Innovation" Canada to amend approvals for the Core. Likely the transmit components are pretty much the same.


Persuading probably requires retesting, the first time in the USA the second antenna transmit did not make the grade. The difficultly is money! I got a quote for a manufacturer for lab testing and certification several years ago. The price tag $25,000 to $30000, if it passed the first time. Internally the units are quite different . PowerFlarmCore 3 internal boards, Fusion 1 board. I doubt it will happen for an end of life product..

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Richard Pfiffner wrote on 11/23/2020 6:50 AM:
> PowerFlarmCore 3 internal boards, Fusion 1 board. I doubt it will happen for an end of life product.

And yet the boxes appear to be the same physical size. I've been attracted to smaller units for
my next glider because of space constraints. Any possibility a smaller version is coming?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

I would guess no on the smaller version as it would require a totally new board design and a new FCC certification.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Cliff Hilty[_5_]]

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 9:45:16 AM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> I would guess no on the smaller version as it would require a totally new board design and a new FCC certification.
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com
" 1 board. I doubt it will happen for an end of life product."

Surely they are not going to discontinue the powerflarm core support? A 2000+ Dollar item should last more than 10 years. I wouldn't mind some upgrade costs but making us buy a completely new unit , well they would lose a lot of support.

CH

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 2:51:24 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 9:45:16 AM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > I would guess no on the smaller version as it would require a totally new board design and a new FCC certification.
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
> " 1 board. I doubt it will happen for an end of life product."
> Surely they are not going to discontinue the powerflarm core support? A 2000+ Dollar item should last more than 10 years. I wouldn't mind some upgrade costs but making us buy a completely new unit , well they would lose a lot of support.
>
> CH


Support will not end. Just no more PowerFlarm Cores will be manufactured. The Core has been replaced by the Fusion.

Craggy will continue to offer Service Provider support for the Powerflarm Core

http://www.craggyaero.com/powerflarm_fsp.htm


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[S9]

Couple dumb questions:
1> should I or need I upgrade from full licensed CORE to Fusion? Why?
2> is there an upgrade pricing path from CORE to Fusion?

Thanks Stephen

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Tuesday, November 24, 2020 at 3:01:06 PM UTC-8, S9 wrote:
> Couple dumb questions:
> 1> should I or need I upgrade from full licensed CORE to Fusion? Why?
> 2> is there an upgrade pricing path from CORE to Fusion?
>
> Thanks Stephen
There is an introductory price of $1526 until Jan 31,2021.

No upgrade path for a PowerFlarm Core.

The Fusion has many new feature including WIFI, enternal range analyzer, connect and cfg with an app on your phone ,etc see brochue for details.

http://www.craggyaero.com/PowerFlarm/PowerFLARM%20Fusion%20Brochure.pdf

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/24/20 4:46 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 24, 2020 at 3:01:06 PM UTC-8, S9 wrote:
>> Couple dumb questions:
>> 1> should I or need I upgrade from full licensed CORE to Fusion? Why?
>> 2> is there an upgrade pricing path from CORE to Fusion?
>>
>> Thanks Stephen
> There is an introductory price of $1526 until Jan 31,2021.
>
> No upgrade path for a PowerFlarm Core.
>
> The Fusion has many new feature including WIFI, enternal range analyzer, connect and cfg with an app on your phone ,etc see brochue for details.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/PowerFlarm/PowerFLARM%20Fusion%20Brochure.pdf
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com
>

I considered getting one to replace my PowerFlarm portable. My wife
asked what additional benefit it would provide for $1526. Uhhh... I'm
sticking with my portable.

Oh, and I don't tell me that transmitting on the B antenna is worth that
much.

--
Dan
5J

[George Haeh]

I upgraded to the Core 1.1 because the Flarm website said it can transmit on both antennas.

Color me naïve in my belief that Flarm would be obtaining approval for that capability in North America.

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

I had asked these questions before but didn't see any response. Lets try again (with some of my own ANSWERS).

- The comment about "Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core". What does this mean? Just "move the cables" and its plug and play? Configuration too? IT APPEARS SO.
- Or is there a trade-in discount program which to me is much more "hassel-free"? IT APPEARS NOT.
- The comment about "Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on". It appears that the PowerFLARM Fusion's A/B/ADS-B(1090) antenna connections are identical to the older PowerFLARM Core. Correct? Only the GPS antenna has changed (screw-in versus push-in)? UNANSWERED
- Are the antenna connections (A/B/ADS-B/GPS) identical between the PowerFLARM line and the LXNav PowerMouse? UNANSWERED
- Are the mounting holes identical between the Fusion and the Core? IT APPEARS SO.
- The overall dimensions appears to be identical between the new Fusion and the older Core. However, the LXNAV FLARM PowerMouse is 25%-40% smaller dimensionally and is 68% smaller in volume. JUST A COMMENT but these can be important considerations as we try to put 1000kg of stuff into a 100kg box (metric conversion applied).

My $0.02.

Thanks, John OHM

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 10:11:40 AM UTC-8, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> I had asked these questions before but didn't see any response. Lets try again (with some of my own ANSWERS).
>
> - The comment about "Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core". What does this mean? Just "move the cables" and its plug and play? Configuration too? IT APPEARS SO.
> - Or is there a trade-in discount program which to me is much more "hassel-free"? IT APPEARS NOT.
> - The comment about "Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on". It appears that the PowerFLARM Fusion's A/B/ADS-B(1090) antenna connections are identical to the older PowerFLARM Core. Correct? Only the GPS antenna has changed (screw-in versus push-in)? UNANSWERED
> - Are the antenna connections (A/B/ADS-B/GPS) identical between the PowerFLARM line and the LXNav PowerMouse? UNANSWERED
> - Are the mounting holes identical between the Fusion and the Core? IT APPEARS SO.
> - The overall dimensions appears to be identical between the new Fusion and the older Core. However, the LXNAV FLARM PowerMouse is 25%-40% smaller dimensionally and is 68% smaller in volume. JUST A COMMENT but these can be important considerations as we try to put 1000kg of stuff into a 100kg box (metric conversion applied).
>
> My $0.02.
>
> Thanks, John OHM

Hassle-Free means your antennas except for the GPS antenna will be the same connectors. It comes with a GPS antenna with the correct connectors. If you want to use your old GPS antenna you would need an adapter.

Fusion CFG tool is an app on your phone or use the USB port as before.

No Trade in just an introductory price $1526 until 01/31/2021

Antenna connectors Flarm A, Flarm B, ADS-B, GPS for PowerMouse and Fusion are the same.

Mounting is the same as the PowerFlarm Core

Because of design and FCC certification issues:
PowerMouse does not provide warnings on ADS-B targets as LXNAV uses its own ADS-b Module. FCC certification for PowerMouse USA only transmits on Flarm A antenna, FCC certification PowerMouse USA does not have WIFI or Bluetooth.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 7:18:38 PM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
> I normally use igc files from my LX9000 which don't work with that tool. The LX range analyser does not give me the individual antenna information. I just tried a file from my PF which did have readings from the two antennae - good news. Less good was that one seemed to have very poor range - I don't know which antenna that was. However, the CARP file analyser (Continuous Analyzer of Radio Performance - new to me, apparently accumulates range data from multiple flights) did not appear to find any data, and I had to use the 'Classic Analyser' although my firmware version was 6.82 and the website said CARP should work from 6.80 - so I was only seeing data from one flight, whereas what I got from the LX9000 appeared to be from multiple flights and just showed decent all round reception (minimum of 10k all round).

@waremark - a week ago, you said there did not appear to be any Continuous Range Analysis information in your .igc files. Did you activate the feature? Here's what I put in flarmcfg.txt (I comment it all so I have an idea of what is going on). Anything starting with # is a comment, starting with $ is an instruction to the FLARM.

###########
#Continuous Range Analysis
#must be turned on with reset command
#remove # to reset - load flarmcfg.txt to flarm
############
$PFLAN,S,RESET

If you leave your flarmcfg.txt file like this it resets the stats on every flight, so you have to make it a comment afterwards #$PFLAN,S,RESET then save flarmcfg.txt.

After putting flarmcfg.txt into my flarm, I move the file to a folder on the USB stick so I have it available and the FLARM doesn't 'see' it on following flights.

The information on this is from para 8.17 of FTD-012 Data Port Interface Control Document (ICD) 7.12 (not easily available I'll grant you).

Dan
2D

[Paul Remde]

Hi John,

I think most of your questions have now been answered by other people. Let me know if you have any other questions. You are correct that the PowerFLARM Fusions connectors are identical to those used on the PowerMouse.

I added the PowerFLARM Fusion to my web page this week and also updated my PowerFLARM Comparison table. my Fusion page includes bullet points describing the main differences between the Core and Fusion.
https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/flarm-powerflarm-fusion
https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/flarm-powerflarm-comparison

It will be interesting to whether the Fusion or PowerMouse will be more popular in the future. I have already received quite a few pre-orders for the Fusion. I don't plan to stock or ship it until after it receives FCC approval.

The PowerMouse has been extremely popular this year. I love how small it is and how it has 2 RJ45 connectors.

The Fusion's Wi-Fi and Bluetooth radios makes it possible to view a range analysis after the flight on an iPhone or Android phone immediately after a flight - which is cool. I also like the 3 additional tri-color diagnostic LEDs. They are only visible if you can access them, but they could be very helpful with troubleshooting.

The lack of a "trade-up" program has been (I think) worked-around by offering an introductory price for the Fusion which is $269 less than the regular price of $1795. Also, the good news for PowerFLARM Core owners is that there is a great market for used Core units and they can be tested and repaired with the latest Core boards for much less than the price of a new unit. I would think that a Core owner could sell their Core for $795 to $995 easily and quickly. That would make it much easier to upgrade to a Fusion - if desired. If the new owner has any issues with the old Core, it can be repaired to a like-new unit.

I'd have a tough time deciding between the PowerMouse and PowerFLARM Fusion.. They are both great products with the exact same in-flight functionality..

One last note - I have one new PowerFLARM Core remaining in stock for $1399 ($200 off) and will include a free logger altimeter calibration worth $95.
https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/flarm-powerflarm-core

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
_____________________________________________

On Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 12:11:40 PM UTC-6, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> I had asked these questions before but didn't see any response. Lets try again (with some of my own ANSWERS).
>
> - The comment about "Hassle-free upgrade from PowerFLARM Core". What does this mean? Just "move the cables" and its plug and play? Configuration too? IT APPEARS SO.
> - Or is there a trade-in discount program which to me is much more "hassel-free"? IT APPEARS NOT.
> - The comment about "Updated antenna connectors — all screw-on". It appears that the PowerFLARM Fusion's A/B/ADS-B(1090) antenna connections are identical to the older PowerFLARM Core. Correct? Only the GPS antenna has changed (screw-in versus push-in)? UNANSWERED
> - Are the antenna connections (A/B/ADS-B/GPS) identical between the PowerFLARM line and the LXNav PowerMouse? UNANSWERED
> - Are the mounting holes identical between the Fusion and the Core? IT APPEARS SO.
> - The overall dimensions appears to be identical between the new Fusion and the older Core. However, the LXNAV FLARM PowerMouse is 25%-40% smaller dimensionally and is 68% smaller in volume. JUST A COMMENT but these can be important considerations as we try to put 1000kg of stuff into a 100kg box (metric conversion applied).
>
> My $0.02.
>
> Thanks, John OHM

[waremark]

On Friday, 27 November 2020 at 16:20:03 UTC, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 7:18:38 PM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
> > I normally use igc files from my LX9000 which don't work with that tool..
.........
The LX range analyser does not apparently accumulates range data from multiple flights) did not appear to find any data,
>
> @waremark - a week ago, you said there did not appear to be any Continuous Range Analysis information in your .igc files. Did you activate the feature? Here's what I put in flarmcfg.txt (I comment it all so I have an idea of what is going on). Anything starting with # is a comment, starting with $ is an instruction to the
>
> The information on this is from para 8.17 of FTD-012 Data Port Interface Control Document (ICD) 7.12 (not easily available I'll grant you).
>
> Dan
> 2D


Thanks, Mark

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

waremark wrote on 11/30/2020 5:39 AM:
> On Friday, 27 November 2020 at 16:20:03 UTC, Dan Daly wrote:
>> On Friday, November 20, 2020 at 7:18:38 PM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
>>> I normally use igc files from my LX9000 which don't work with that tool..
> .........
> The LX range analyser does not apparently accumulates range data from multiple flights) did not appear to find any data,
>>
>> @waremark - a week ago, you said there did not appear to be any Continuous Range Analysis information in your .igc files. Did you activate the feature? Here's what I put in flarmcfg.txt (I comment it all so I have an idea of what is going on). Anything starting with # is a comment, starting with $ is an instruction to the
>>
>> The information on this is from para 8.17 of FTD-012 Data Port Interface Control Document (ICD) 7.12 (not easily available I'll grant you).
>>
>> Dan
>> 2D
>
>
> Thanks, Mark
If you use the FLARM configurtion tool, it will ask you if you want to reset the range data.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 24, 2020 at 8:16:35 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I considered getting one to replace my PowerFlarm portable. My wife
> asked what additional benefit it would provide for $1526. Uhhh... I'm
> sticking with my portable.
>
> Oh, and I don't tell me that transmitting on the B antenna is worth that
> much.
>
> Dan
> 5J

Did upgrading the wife come into the conversation?

[Dan Marotta]

On 12/2/20 10:38 AM, wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 24, 2020 at 8:16:35 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> I considered getting one to replace my PowerFlarm portable. My wife
>> asked what additional benefit it would provide for $1526. Uhhh... I'm
>> sticking with my portable.
>>
>> Oh, and I don't tell me that transmitting on the B antenna is worth that
>> much.
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>
> Did upgrading the wife come into the conversation?
>

Absolutely NOT! This is the gal who once told me that "You can never
have enough toys." I have a hangar and three aircraft to prove that.

--
Dan
5J

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dan Marotta wrote on 12/2/2020 11:14 AM:
> On 12/2/20 10:38 AM, wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 24, 2020 at 8:16:35 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> I considered getting one to replace my PowerFlarm portable. My wife
>>> asked what additional benefit it would provide for $1526. Uhhh... I'm
>>> sticking with my portable.
>>>
>>> Oh, and I don't tell me that transmitting on the B antenna is worth that
>>> much.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>
>> Did upgrading the wife come into the conversation?
>>
>
> Absolutely NOT!* This is the gal who once told me that "You can never have enough toys."* I
> have a hangar and three aircraft to prove that.
>
Then you should give her the $1526 :^)

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Guy Acheson[_2_]]

I have a current Flarm. Updating is a chore for my non-IT life.
Will the new version allow upgrades and such via WiFi? Like all of my other computer apps?
Perhaps upgrades will be automatic?

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020 at 6:45:24 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
> I have a current Flarm. Updating is a chore for my non-IT life.
> Will the new version allow upgrades and such via WiFi? Like all of my other computer apps?
> Perhaps upgrades will be automatic?

Not quite automatic but easier.

FLARM Hub — a web app that runs on the Fusion device and works with any smartphone, tablet, or desktop computer—confi guring your FLARM has just become super easy.

http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm

http://www.craggyaero.com/PowerFlarm/PowerFLARM%20Fusion%20Brochure.pdf

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Tom BravoMike]

A video presentation of the new PowerFlarm Fusion by Stefan Langer:

https://youtu.be/aI2watdPHOM

[Ramy[_2_]]

Sorry if this going to end up a duplicate post, as my previous post still not showing up.
Anyway if anyone is considering buying the Fusion and interested in selling their used but fully functional core or portable, the NCSA club in California is looking for a good deal. Please reply here or to

Thanks

Ramy

On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 2:06:20 PM UTC-8, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> A video presentation of the new PowerFlarm Fusion by Stefan Langer:
>
> https://youtu.be/aI2watdPHOM

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

Last few day for the introductory FUSION price.

http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm

Richard

[Paul Remde]

The FLARM introductory price for the PowerFLARM Fusion is available only through January of 2021. You can see details and order here:
https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/flarm-powerflarm-fusion

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.