Dangerous Cessna evacuates govt again

[Paul kgyy]

True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
nation.

[iflyatiger]

I wonder how we look to people outside of the usa.

When a single Cessna airplane can cause the government to shut down and
people to scramble in fear. Imagine what the people all over the world some
of whom live in war zones or under daily fear of their evil governments must
think of our chicken behavior...
I also cant help but wonder what the men and woman of our armed services
think of this. They live in danger everyday and then they see how their
leaders react to a small plane simply flying somewhere it shouldn't.

Disgusting !!


"Paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
> cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
> scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
> nation.
>

[iflyatiger]

P.S.
Yes the pilot is an idiot !!

"iflyatiger" > wrote in message
...
> I wonder how we look to people outside of the usa.
>
> When a single Cessna airplane can cause the government to shut down and
> people to scramble in fear. Imagine what the people all over the world
some
> of whom live in war zones or under daily fear of their evil governments
must
> think of our chicken behavior...
> I also cant help but wonder what the men and woman of our armed services
> think of this. They live in danger everyday and then they see how their
> leaders react to a small plane simply flying somewhere it shouldn't.
>
> Disgusting !!
>
>
> "Paul kgyy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
> > cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
> > scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
> > nation.
> >
>
>

[JohnH]

Paul kgyy wrote:
> True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
> cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
> scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
> nation.

Make light of it all you want, but it's these moron pilots who are going to
put an end to YOUR pastime.

Yes, it's silly for the gov't to scatter like hens when a Cessna approaches,
but that's not the point.

AOPA or the like should help make examples of these pilots, in a big public
way. "We won't tolerate ignorance among our own and suggest immediate
revocation of their flying privileges".

It may have been semi-excusable to invade DC airspace a couple years ago,
but no one should be in the air without knowing good and well where they're
flying now.

[Sport Pilot]

Did he get disoriented wilst doing rolls?

[Sport Pilot]

>Yes, it's silly for the gov't to scatter like hens when a Cessna
approaches,
>but that's not the point.

Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.

[Andrew Gideon]

Sport Pilot wrote:

> Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.

One can carry much more, without the problem of dodging fighters, in a
minivan.

When DC is closed off to all vehicular traffic, I'll believe that someone is
serious about security and I'll accept what's being done to GA there.
Absent that, this is a joke and we're the butt of that joke.

- Andrew

[Jay Honeck]

> AOPA or the like should help make examples of these pilots, in a big
> public way. "We won't tolerate ignorance among our own and suggest
> immediate revocation of their flying privileges".

At first blush upon reading this I thought "How ridiculous!"

However, the more I consider it, the more I think John is onto something
here. If we, the pilot community, don't do something to make it apparent
that these morons who keep busting the TFRs are NOT representative of the
rest of us, nor do they reflect the predominant attitude of most pilots, nor
do they reflect a general lack of intelligence shared by other pilots, I
fear that the federal government is simply going to make the whole danged
East Coast a no-fly zone.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mutts]

On 11 May 2005 09:40:02 -0700, "Paul kgyy" >
wrote:

>True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
>cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
>scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
>nation.


N5826G
C-150K

Owned by Vintage Aero Club in PA.

Heard on Fox that aircraft was taken "without permission".

thus is is the story at this point.

[Gene Seibel]

I don't want anyone to take this wrong, it's just a thought that
floated through my head.

Threats don't do any good unless one believes they will be carried out.
Shooting down one Cessna would wake up a lot of pilots. Would also give
the public a "sense of secutiry," however false it may be. Otherwise we
go on with complacent pilots and panic in the streets every time a
small plane flies over.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Mike Granby]

> Not when its possible for a C150 to
> carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.

Wouldn't it be easier just to drive there?

[Andrew Gideon]

Mike Granby wrote:

> Wouldn't it be easier just to drive there?

Yes, but shipping it might be an even better choice now that I think on it.

- Andrew

[Mutts]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 10:51:08 -0700, Mutts > wrote:

>On 11 May 2005 09:40:02 -0700, "Paul kgyy" >
>wrote:
>
>>True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
>>cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
>>scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
>>nation.
>
>
>N5826G
>C-150K
>
>Owned by Vintage Aero Club in PA.
>
>Heard on Fox that aircraft was taken "without permission".
>
>thus is is the story at this point.


Now if I am interpreting the news correctly......

No transponder and "zig-zagging"

[smf]

Come on guys, rules are rules! No-Fly Zone means just that. Mistakes are
made but don't discount the mistake.

How many IFR pilots in the group would tell the controller....thanks for
Clearing me for the approach ILS 18 but I think I'll just land on rwy 36
because the rules don't apply to me.

Steve

[Jay Masino]

The latest report on WTOP (news station in DC) was that the aircraft WAS
squawking the correct code, but that there was some sort of communications
problem. I'm glad to see that everyone was so willing to jump on top of
our brother pilots.


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[S.]

"Paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
> cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
> scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
> nation.


Hi Folks,

As always, intelligent (sometimes pithy !) observation from members of the
aviation community in the above postings ; I agree with all of it.

Newsreel footage of EVERYONE in D.C. scattering in all directions has just
been shown on Channel 4 news (U.K.) ; it looked like a badly made disaster
movie. A police officer shouted "GET OUT, NOW !" to the floor of the House.
Unseemly and totally lacking in composure or dignity.

If this is what an off-track Cessna can do the the worlds most
technologically powerful and sophisticated nation, I have to ask "Have the
terrorists already won ?".

I hope to go to San Diego, and work my way up to CPL in August, achieving
the last of my life's ambitions at 48.It would be tragic if the authorities
were to restrict the people who could take the controls of an aircraft, by
way of "security measures".

Idiots like this one today may curtail that, if they don't take the ease of
access to flying, just a little bit less for granted.

[Mutts]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 20:03:57 +0100, "S." >
wrote:

>
>"Paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
>> cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
>> scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
>> nation.
>
>
>Hi Folks,
>
>As always, intelligent (sometimes pithy !) observation from members of the
>aviation community in the above postings ; I agree with all of it.
>
>Newsreel footage of EVERYONE in D.C. scattering in all directions has just
>been shown on Channel 4 news (U.K.) ; it looked like a badly made disaster
>movie. A police officer shouted "GET OUT, NOW !" to the floor of the House.
>Unseemly and totally lacking in composure or dignity.
>
>If this is what an off-track Cessna can do the the worlds most
>technologically powerful and sophisticated nation, I have to ask "Have the
>terrorists already won ?".
>
>I hope to go to San Diego, and work my way up to CPL in August, achieving
>the last of my life's ambitions at 48.It would be tragic if the authorities
>were to restrict the people who could take the controls of an aircraft, by
>way of "security measures".
>
>Idiots like this one today may curtail that, if they don't take the ease of
>access to flying, just a little bit less for granted.
>
>

Does the smoke "win" when the fire alarm goes off?

Lets stay vigilant for our rights and be calm.
I do not expect a huge fallout from this.
AOPA will be there every inch of the way.

The story is still unfolding with all the typical media foul ups on
the details.

You will LOVE San Diego!

MYF?

[kontiki]

iflyatiger wrote:
> I wonder how we look to people outside of the usa.
>
> When a single Cessna airplane can cause the government to shut down and
> people to scramble in fear. Imagine what the people all over the world some
> of whom live in war zones or under daily fear of their evil governments must
> think of our chicken behavior...
> I also cant help but wonder what the men and woman of our armed services
> think of this. They live in danger everyday and then they see how their
> leaders react to a small plane simply flying somewhere it shouldn't.
>
> Disgusting !!
>
Exactly. Its totally ridiculous that the US Government allows millions
of illegals to cross its borders every month while it totally freaks out
when a littel Cessna comes close to Washington DC. What a complete joke.

Soon Washington DC will be like Berlin... barbed wires, tanks and outposts.

Fine... you can have the city, its fillled with a bunch of self promoting
blowhards with no testosterone anyway.

[Kev]

> Heard on Fox that aircraft was taken "without permission".

Which is apparently newspeak for the actual "We didn't have this flight
listed on our books" from the club owners. Although apparently
everyone in the club knew these guys were flying to an airshow down
South.

Sure wish there was an easy way to sue newspeople for outright
fabrications.

[kontiki]

This is what happens when you place these extreme restrictions around
a single city while the rest of the entire country is wide open to
whoever the hell wants to come in.

When this government finally faces the realities of securing the borders
then I'll have some sympathy. In the meantime lets crucify some hapless
private pilot for flying to close to Washington in his Piper Cub.

[kontiki]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> When DC is closed off to all vehicular traffic, I'll believe that someone is
> serious about security and I'll accept what's being done to GA there.
> Absent that, this is a joke and we're the butt of that joke.
>
> - Andrew
>

And while we are at it, howe about securing the borders? If you can't
secure your borders you have no country.

[[email protected]]

Haven't you ever made a mistake?

Why would you, and the others on this board, immediately jump on the
governments bandwagon?

1) You don't know if these guys are morons or not.
2) There are probably less than 1,000,000 active pilots in this
country - that's a tiny proportion of the general population.
3) The government is going to do away with us, based on number 2, just
because we are a tiny minority, AOPA or not.





On Wed, 11 May 2005 17:49:00 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> AOPA or the like should help make examples of these pilots, in a big
>> public way. "We won't tolerate ignorance among our own and suggest
>> immediate revocation of their flying privileges".
>
>At first blush upon reading this I thought "How ridiculous!"
>
>However, the more I consider it, the more I think John is onto something
>here. If we, the pilot community, don't do something to make it apparent
>that these morons who keep busting the TFRs are NOT representative of the
>rest of us, nor do they reflect the predominant attitude of most pilots, nor
>do they reflect a general lack of intelligence shared by other pilots, I
>fear that the federal government is simply going to make the whole danged
>East Coast a no-fly zone.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 20:03:57 +0100, "S." > wrote
in >::

>Newsreel footage of EVERYONE in D.C. scattering in all directions has just
>been shown on Channel 4 news (U.K.) ; it looked like a badly made disaster
>movie. A police officer shouted "GET OUT, NOW !" to the floor of the House.
>Unseemly and totally lacking in composure or dignity.
>
>If this is what an off-track Cessna can do the the worlds most
>technologically powerful and sophisticated nation, I have to ask "Have the
>terrorists already won ?".

In light of the British people continuing to man their shops and posts
during the nightly bomb raids by the Nazis during the Battle of
Britain, these pusillanimous Americans scattering in panic must appear
particularly pathetic.

[kontiki]

S. wrote:

> Newsreel footage of EVERYONE in D.C. scattering in all directions has just
> been shown on Channel 4 news (U.K.) ; it looked like a badly made disaster
> movie. A police officer shouted "GET OUT, NOW !" to the floor of the House.
> Unseemly and totally lacking in composure or dignity.
>
> If this is what an off-track Cessna can do the the worlds most
> technologically powerful and sophisticated nation, I have to ask "Have the
> terrorists already won ?".
>
Exactly! All that going on in Washington while our borders remain Wide-ass
open for millions of illegals to come streaming in every week. The activity in
Washington is tantamount to locking the barn after the horses have escaped.

What do you expect from a bunch of old farts more concerned with re-election
and "offending" illegal alien advocate groups than protecting the taxpaying
citizenry or upholding the United States Constitution.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

[Christopher Campbell]

On 5/11/05 9:40 AM, in article
. com, "Paul kgyy"
> wrote:

> True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
> cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
> scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
> nation.
>

The pilots of those fighter jets, armed to the teeth, would be arrested the
moment they flew a Cessna 150 into the same area. Apparently the latest
technology in military armament is less dangerous than a Cessna 150. What
does the government know about our little airplanes that we don't? We should
form a committee to study the secret powers we are wielding!

[Sport Pilot]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2005 20:03:57 +0100, "S." >
wrote
> in >::
>
> >Newsreel footage of EVERYONE in D.C. scattering in all directions
has just
> >been shown on Channel 4 news (U.K.) ; it looked like a badly made
disaster
> >movie. A police officer shouted "GET OUT, NOW !" to the floor of the
House.
> >Unseemly and totally lacking in composure or dignity.
> >
> >If this is what an off-track Cessna can do the the worlds most
> >technologically powerful and sophisticated nation, I have to ask
"Have the
> >terrorists already won ?".
>
> In light of the British people continuing to man their shops and
posts
> during the nightly bomb raids by the Nazis during the Battle of
> Britain, these pusillanimous Americans scattering in panic must
appear
> particularly pathetic.

I only hope their overeaction make geting rid of GA seem silly.

[W P Dixon]

WOW!
One would have to be pretty stupid to fly over DC in todays world. I can
understand the "No Fly Zone" policy, but I can't understand why all the cops
in the area have to act like Soviet paratroopers are descending around
Washington Monument.
When onboard the USS Iwo Jima we almost had to shoot down a small GA
plane in the Med. He invaded our airspace, after the second warning battle
stations were called, all the cool anti aircraft machine guns and missles
came online. The Captain had them try him one last time and he waved his
wings and turned around. I often wonder if he actually realized how close to
dying he was.
So I can agree with most and say the DC police act like a bunch of bent
out of shape Campfire Girls running around screaming , but if a US Warship
has protected airspace..shouldn't the Capital of the US? What excuse could a
pilot give in VFR conditions for being to close to DC? Oh I didn't know what
DC looked like? I agree with the take their license away.
The news channels were saying that it would take the plane 90 seconds to
reach the Capital or White House from the 3 mile radius....bet that 3 mile
becomes 10 miles soon. We can thank this latest idiot as well as the
Governor of Kentucky's pilots! ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

[Christopher Campbell]

On 5/11/05 10:39 AM, in article
. com, "Sport Pilot"
> wrote:

>> Yes, it's silly for the gov't to scatter like hens when a Cessna
> approaches,
>> but that's not the point.
>
> Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.
>

I suspect that if the C150 was carrying a small A bomb the government would
have known about it long before the plane got to Washington.

[Sport Pilot]

Good point. I only fly radio control models right now. There has been
some restriction of their use during large international events and
around Washington. The same thing has been pointed out about them, but
it makes no differance.

[JohnH]

Jay Masino wrote:
> The latest report on WTOP (news station in DC) was that the aircraft
> WAS squawking the correct code, but that there was some sort of
> communications problem. I'm glad to see that everyone was so willing
> to jump on top of our brother pilots.

Our poor "brother pilots" who can't seem to figure out how to handle a
"communications problem" (aka avoid the friggin white house if their radio
is blown) will be the ones to cause your aircraft to have it's cylinders
filled with sand.

[kontiki]

Jay Masino wrote:

> The latest report on WTOP (news station in DC) was that the aircraft WAS
> squawking the correct code, but that there was some sort of communications
> problem. I'm glad to see that everyone was so willing to jump on top of
> our brother pilots.

Well stated Jay. How wonderful it would be if ALL pilots would speak with
a single voice regarding the idiotic sitution this country is now in because
of its complete lack of balls to protect our borders or to even care who waltzes
in here from God knows wherever.

I guess we will be left to just play tiddly winks until the next serious
attack happens so we can propose even more draconian restrictions that will
only further aggravate law abiding U.S. citizens going about theit business.

Laws are only effective on the law-abiding. But shame on me for proposing
that actual U.S. citizens get any preferred treatment over illegal aliens.

[Gary Drescher]

"Kev" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Heard on Fox that aircraft was taken "without permission".
>
> Which is apparently newspeak for the actual "We didn't have this flight
> listed on our books" from the club owners. Although apparently
> everyone in the club knew these guys were flying to an airshow down
> South.

Did you see a news report that actually stated that the plane was taken
without permission? The NYT merely reported--accurately--that Terry Gainer,
the Capitol police chief, *claimed* that "preliminary information indicated
that the men had taken the plane without permission".

> Sure wish there was an easy way to sue newspeople for outright
> fabrications.

I sometimes have the same wish regarding newsgroup contributors. :)

--Gary

[Peter Clark]

On 11 May 2005 18:51:01 GMT, (Jay Masino)
wrote:

>The latest report on WTOP (news station in DC) was that the aircraft WAS
>squawking the correct code, but that there was some sort of communications
>problem. I'm glad to see that everyone was so willing to jump on top of
>our brother pilots.

The ADIZ procedures require immediate egress from the ADIZ upon lost
comms through shortest-exit to the boundary. It was added after the
incident before Reagan's funeral. Issues with the ADIZ itself and
problems created by pilots not following procedures therein have been
not infrequent since it's inception. So, fine, you're flying along
for some minutes, in a busy area, hearing nothing on the radio (or at
a minimum not being able to get any transmissions acknowledged) and
haven't proceeded out of the area per the procedures, on a course that
is coming close to P-63 (is it 63?), and *still* don't change course
when the fighters fly up and start dropping flares in front of you,
and people aren't supposed to express frustration at the pilots
involved?

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Jay Honeck > posted:

>> AOPA or the like should help make examples of these pilots, in a big
>> public way. "We won't tolerate ignorance among our own and suggest
>> immediate revocation of their flying privileges".
>
> At first blush upon reading this I thought "How ridiculous!"
>
> However, the more I consider it, the more I think John is onto
> something here. If we, the pilot community, don't do something to
> make it apparent that these morons who keep busting the TFRs are NOT
> representative of the rest of us, nor do they reflect the predominant
> attitude of most pilots, nor do they reflect a general lack of
> intelligence shared by other pilots, I fear that the federal
> government is simply going to make the whole danged East Coast a
> no-fly zone.
>
Say, Jay...

Weren't you one of those who in a previous thread suggested that we
_relax_ the requirements for getting GA certificates? ;-)

Perhaps this pilot was just one of those on the low end of the current
bell curve.

Neil

[Jose]

> Make light of it all you want, but it's these moron pilots who are going to
> put an end to YOUR pastime.
> [...]
> AOPA or the like should help make examples of these pilots...

Standard tactic of dictatorial control - get the subjects to do the
dirty work. Instead of standing up against idiot rules (like the
zillion cubic mile zone where only proven building-buster airplanes can
fly, we are ready to execute our own kind for not slavishly obeying
these rules.

Not that I'm advocating violation of the law, but remember how it worked
in grade school - if =anybody= chews gum, =everybody= has to scrub the
floors. The result is that the =kids= themselves beat up anybody who
chews gum.

Is this the kind of world we support?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose]

>> Yes, it's silly for the gov't to scatter like hens when a Cessna
>> approaches, but that's not the point.
>
> Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.

and how is this different from having the gov't scatter like hens when a
small car approaches? It's not like you have to approach very closely
with an A-bomb.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Sport Pilot]

Christopher Campbell wrote:
> On 5/11/05 10:39 AM, in article
> . com, "Sport Pilot"
> > wrote:
>
> >> Yes, it's silly for the gov't to scatter like hens when a Cessna
> > approaches,
> >> but that's not the point.
> >
> > Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a
suitcase.
> >
>
> I suspect that if the C150 was carrying a small A bomb the government
would
> have known about it long before the plane got to Washington.

How? Hard to spot radiation from above. The sun is much higher than
any shielded bomb.

[kontiki]

Jose wrote:
> Not that I'm advocating violation of the law, but remember how it worked
> in grade school - if =anybody= chews gum, =everybody= has to scrub the
> floors. The result is that the =kids= themselves beat up anybody who
> chews gum.
>
> Is this the kind of world we support?
>
> Jose

Well stated sir. All of this because the blowhards is Washington have abrogated
their responsibilities and now the peons must pay.

[george]

wrote:
> Haven't you ever made a mistake?
>
> Why would you, and the others on this board, immediately jump on the
> governments bandwagon?
>
> 1) You don't know if these guys are morons or not.
> 2) There are probably less than 1,000,000 active pilots in this
> country - that's a tiny proportion of the general population.
> 3) The government is going to do away with us, based on number 2,
just
> because we are a tiny minority, AOPA or not.
>
>

Boy. Talk about over reaction.
A C152 with 2 SOB ain't going to be carrying a hell of a lot more.
A case of lousy navigation it would appear.
How many in here have been somewhat wayward at odd times?
Was there a flight plan?

[kontiki]

W P Dixon wrote:

> WOW!
> One would have to be pretty stupid to fly over DC in todays world. I
> can understand the "No Fly Zone" policy, but I can't understand why all
> the cops in the area have to act like Soviet paratroopers are descending
> around Washington Monument.
Yeah, well it was a student pilot for God's sake. Lets Burn him/her at the stake.

> When onboard the USS Iwo Jima we almost had to shoot down a small GA
> plane in the Med. He invaded our airspace, after the second warning
> battle stations were called, all the cool anti aircraft machine guns and
> missles came online. The Captain had them try him one last time and he
> waved his wings and turned around. I often wonder if he actually
> realized how close to dying he was.
A military vessel at sea is a lot different than US city that is supposed
to be the epitome of freedom in the civilized word.

> So I can agree with most and say the DC police act like a bunch of
> bent out of shape Campfire Girls running around screaming , but if a US
> Warship has protected airspace..shouldn't the Capital of the US? What
> excuse could a pilot give in VFR conditions for being to close to DC? Oh
> I didn't know what DC looked like? I agree with the take their license
> away.

As I said, it was a stedent pilot... sheesh. And why not shut down the
airspace around all US cities while we are at it? After all, Don Daley
destroyed an airport in Chicago proportedly because of the "threat" of
these dangerous GA aircraft.

> The news channels were saying that it would take the plane 90 seconds
> to reach the Capital or White House from the 3 mile radius....bet that 3
> mile becomes 10 miles soon. We can thank this latest idiot as well as
> the Governor of Kentucky's pilots! ;)
>
> Patrick
> student SPL
> aircraft structural mech
>

[george]

Christopher Campbell wrote:
> On 5/11/05 9:40 AM, in article
> . com, "Paul kgyy"
> > wrote:
>
> > True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered
for
> > cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets
were
> > scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
> > nation.
> >
>
> The pilots of those fighter jets, armed to the teeth, would be
arrested the
> moment they flew a Cessna 150 into the same area. Apparently the
latest
> technology in military armament is less dangerous than a Cessna 150.
What
> does the government know about our little airplanes that we don't? We
should
> form a committee to study the secret powers we are wielding!

You're not supposed to point out facts like that.
According to their logic
A fully armed supersonic fighter crashing into a building won't have
half the effect that a C152 will have..
Who's running the asylum ?

[Ron Natalie]

kontiki wrote:

> Soon Washington DC will be like Berlin... barbed wires, tanks and outposts.
>
You haven't been here recently, have you. It already looks like that.

[Ron Natalie]

Sport Pilot wrote:
>>Yes, it's silly for the gov't to scatter like hens when a Cessna
>
> approaches,
>
>>but that's not the point.
>
>
> Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.
>
A Geo Metro could carry a similar size bomb and could have gotten closer
to the Capitol than the plane managed to do.

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>AOPA or the like should help make examples of these pilots, in a big
>>public way. "We won't tolerate ignorance among our own and suggest
>>immediate revocation of their flying privileges".
>
>
> At first blush upon reading this I thought "How ridiculous!"
>
> However, the more I consider it, the more I think John is onto something
> here. If we, the pilot community, don't do something to make it apparent
> that these morons who keep busting the TFRs are NOT representative of the
> rest of us, nor do they reflect the predominant attitude of most pilots, nor
> do they reflect a general lack of intelligence shared by other pilots, I
> fear that the federal government is simply going to make the whole danged
> East Coast a no-fly zone.

The ADIZ already encompasses an area with a population bigger than your
entire state.

[Arnold Sten]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>AOPA or the like should help make examples of these pilots, in a big
>>public way. "We won't tolerate ignorance among our own and suggest
>>immediate revocation of their flying privileges".
>
>
> At first blush upon reading this I thought "How ridiculous!"
>
> However, the more I consider it, the more I think John is onto something
> here. If we, the pilot community, don't do something to make it apparent
> that these morons who keep busting the TFRs are NOT representative of the
> rest of us, nor do they reflect the predominant attitude of most pilots, nor
> do they reflect a general lack of intelligence shared by other pilots, I
> fear that the federal government is simply going to make the whole danged
> East Coast a no-fly zone.

It is indeed unfortunate that the general, non-aviation public only
receives its information from the likes of CNN, MSNBC, etc., etc. When
was the last time any of you saw any mention of the hundreds or even
thousands of pilots small, private airplanes in a responsible and safe
manner. So today we have one person violate the D.C. no-fly zone. The
American people MUST be made to understand that this one very, very tiny
incident when taken in the context of many GA flights go unnoticed day
in and day out.
Arnold Sten

[Ron Natalie]

Peter Clark wrote:
> On 11 May 2005 18:51:01 GMT, (Jay Masino)
> wrote:
>
>
>>The latest report on WTOP (news station in DC) was that the aircraft WAS
>>squawking the correct code, but that there was some sort of communications
>>problem. I'm glad to see that everyone was so willing to jump on top of
>>our brother pilots.
>
>
> The ADIZ procedures require immediate egress from the ADIZ upon lost
> comms through shortest-exit to the boundary.

That restriction is only for lost TRANSPONDER capability. And of course
it presumes that the pilot knows the transponder is out.

> It was added after the
> incident before Reagan's funeral. Issues with the ADIZ itself and
> problems created by pilots not following procedures therein have been
> not infrequent since it's inception.

You can't blame the whole ADIZ piece of **** on pilots. It took
badgering the FAA for over a year to get them to chart the blasted
thing for example. The TRACON and the other political entities
are still having ****ing matches over operations (or else the
Kentucky governor fiasco wouldn't have happened either).

[Sully]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 20:03:57 +0100, "S." >
wrote:

>
>"Paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
>> cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
>> scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
>> nation.
>
>
>Hi Folks,
>
>As always, intelligent (sometimes pithy !) observation from members of the
>aviation community in the above postings ; I agree with all of it.
>
>Newsreel footage of EVERYONE in D.C. scattering in all directions has just
>been shown on Channel 4 news (U.K.) ; it looked like a badly made disaster
>movie. A police officer shouted "GET OUT, NOW !" to the floor of the House.
>Unseemly and totally lacking in composure or dignity.
>
>If this is what an off-track Cessna can do the the worlds most
>technologically powerful and sophisticated nation, I have to ask "Have the
>terrorists already won ?".

I would have to say that the answer to this question is a resounding
YES! Between people living in fear in that area of a possible attack
(mostly because of our wonderful news media), and all the restrictions
that are placed on wrong people or wrong areas they have at least
scored a huge victory in the battle if not the war. The ironic part
is that while we are imposing all these rules on people who are here
legally we still have people who want give "illegal aliens" driver's
licenses and jobs!( I know another topic all together)

>
>I hope to go to San Diego, and work my way up to CPL in August, achieving
>the last of my life's ambitions at 48.It would be tragic if the authorities
>were to restrict the people who could take the controls of an aircraft, by
>way of "security measures".
>
>Idiots like this one today may curtail that, if they don't take the ease of
>access to flying, just a little bit less for granted.
>
>

Something to remember though through all of this is that it was a
"STUDENT" and instructor. The instructor maybe should have been
paying a little more attention and take much better action and paid a
little more attention but I know that there were many times my
instructor sat silently waiting to see how long it would take for me
to correct my mistakes. Of course I myself would have went out of my
way to aviod the hassle of that area completely but the instructor may
have wanted the student to get a lesson on dealing with the ADIZ since
he would be flying in that area..to the instructor's credit the
student just got a lesson that he will never forget if he gets to fly
again!!

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 15:27:01 -0400, "W P Dixon"
> wrote in
>::

>WOW!
> One would have to be pretty stupid to fly over DC in todays world.

Or disoriented above an undercast, or electrical failure, or ...

>I can
>understand the "No Fly Zone" policy, but I can't understand why all the cops
>in the area have to act like Soviet paratroopers are descending around
>Washington Monument.

What better way for high school graduates to promote their self
importance?

[i]
> I agree with the take their license away.

How can you make that statement without all the facts?

[x-ray]

"Sport Pilot" > wrote:
>
> Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.


Apparently you do not understand nuclear weapons.

1) You can NOT put "A bomb" in a suitcase.
2) Considering the weight of such "suitcase" it would take 4 people to carry
it.
3) You need explosives to compress the plutonium to approx 3 times normal
density, not to mention the weight of the shielding you need, unless you
want to be a martyr.
4) By skipping 3) the device would be enough radioactive to harm the one who
is carrying it -> they would be dead before they got to target!
5) Oh, by the way, by skipping 3) radiation sensors around various areas
would go ape ****.

In short, "A bomb" suitcase is nothing but paranoia (but that's already
mentioned in thread, so i won't go into it again).

[Arnold Sten]

Paul kgyy wrote:

> True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
> cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
> scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
> nation.
>
AOPA Phil Boyer was interviewed on CNN at 1745 EDT. He set the record
straight by stating that a C150, carrying two adults and full fuel has
little to no cargo capacity (polite way of saying no explosives). Boyer
also did say that the two pilots flying the 150 made a stupid mistake
and the security people in Washington acted in accord with proper plans.

This interview was just after some undersecretary for Homeland Security
stated to Wolf Blitzer that a "small aircraft of this size can carry 0ne
or Two THOUSAND pounds of explosives". Talk about your typical
uneducated Washington Bureaucrat!

[Peter R.]

Arnold wrote:

> This interview was just after some undersecretary for Homeland
Security
> stated to Wolf Blitzer that a "small aircraft of this size can carry
0ne
> or Two THOUSAND pounds of explosives".

Come on, give this poor guy some credit. Perhaps he meant one to two
thousand ounces.

After all, he was on live TV.

--
Peter

[Mutts]

On 11 May 2005 12:17:58 -0700, "Kev" > wrote:

>> Heard on Fox that aircraft was taken "without permission".
>
>Which is apparently newspeak for the actual "We didn't have this flight
>listed on our books" from the club owners. Although apparently
>everyone in the club knew these guys were flying to an airshow down
>South.
>
>Sure wish there was an easy way to sue newspeople for outright
>fabrications.


Everyone wants the scoop I guess and jumps at any news at all.

[Dave S]

Paul kgyy wrote:

> True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
> cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
> scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
> nation.
>
What I want to know is how an INSTRUCTOR who lives in the region can be
so UNAWARE of their location in proximity to an ADIZ and a No-Fly Zone
centered on the nations capitol. How one cannot be within 4 miles away
from the nations capitol in the post 9/11 environment and realize "hey,
am I supposed to be here"? If you are lost, get on the radio. If you are
seeing landmarks that are 30-50 miles inside a restricted area, like the
WASHINGTON MONUMENT and WHITE HOUSE you should be realizing something.

How someone can be intercepted not only by an apache but also an F-16
and not respond to ATC calling you on 121.5 also makes me wonder. Yes...
the sheeply panicked. There was organized mass panic based on unknown
intentions, and that was unfortunate. What is astounding is the fact
that an instructor blundered so seriously, when the areas are marked on
charts, the ADIZ's are clearly described, the FSS's re-emphasize certain
briefings from time to time (such as Intercept Procedures, for example).

If anything, all we have managed to demonstrate is.. you can get within
3 miles now without getting shot down. Crap like this will only serve to
get the "restricted areas" even larger, and more restrictive, and will
undo the YEARS of work the aphabet groups have put in towards opening up
the DC airspace.

Un-F*#&ing believable.
Dave

[Dave S]

They cant? Gee.. I guess this guy listed below was lying. So, why cant
they exist? Only need a few pounds of fissionable material and some
shielding. Dont need a LOT of shielding, since the guy delivering it is
on a suicide mission and not really worried about radiation sickness.
But Im not a nuclear physicist.. I just play one on TV :P.

Dave

http://armageddononline.tripod.com/nuclear.htm

Why are suitcase bombs such a great risk?
Russia created around 250 suitcase bombs - nuclear weapons the size of
suitcases. According to a Soviet defector called Aleksander Lebed it has
lost track of more than 100 - each of which could kill more than 100,000
people. Many of these bombs were distributed and hidden in hostile
countries. Possibly the worst effect of a terrorist nuclear device would
be that it could trigger a nuclear war. If America thought Russia had
used nuclear weapons against it, it would not hesitate to retaliate; so
one small nuclear device could kill billions.
x-ray wrote:

> "Sport Pilot" > wrote:
>
>>Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.
>
>
>
> Apparently you do not understand nuclear weapons.
>
> 1) You can NOT put "A bomb" in a suitcase.
> 2) Considering the weight of such "suitcase" it would take 4 people to carry
> it.
> 3) You need explosives to compress the plutonium to approx 3 times normal
> density, not to mention the weight of the shielding you need, unless you
> want to be a martyr.
> 4) By skipping 3) the device would be enough radioactive to harm the one who
> is carrying it -> they would be dead before they got to target!
> 5) Oh, by the way, by skipping 3) radiation sensors around various areas
> would go ape ****.
>
> In short, "A bomb" suitcase is nothing but paranoia (but that's already
> mentioned in thread, so i won't go into it again).
>
>

[Peter Clark]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 17:29:43 -0400, Ron Natalie >
wrote:

>Peter Clark wrote:
>> On 11 May 2005 18:51:01 GMT, (Jay Masino)
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The latest report on WTOP (news station in DC) was that the aircraft WAS
>>>squawking the correct code, but that there was some sort of communications
>>>problem. I'm glad to see that everyone was so willing to jump on top of
>>>our brother pilots.
>>
>>
>> The ADIZ procedures require immediate egress from the ADIZ upon lost
>> comms through shortest-exit to the boundary.
>
>That restriction is only for lost TRANSPONDER capability. And of course
>it presumes that the pilot knows the transponder is out.

K, I must have been confusing (or combining it) with another notam.

>You can't blame the whole ADIZ piece of **** on pilots. It took
>badgering the FAA for over a year to get them to chart the blasted
>thing for example. The TRACON and the other political entities
>are still having ****ing matches over operations (or else the
>Kentucky governor fiasco wouldn't have happened either).

I'm not blaming the whole ADIZ fiasco on pilots, it's a ridiculous
waste of energy to put on an ineffective show. But the area isn't an
unknown any more, flying towards the prohibited airspace (unless they
were vectored towards it?) contained within it isn't exactly smart
even if you do have a transponder and 2way comms, and things like this
make it more difficult on the people who want to but can't figure out
how to get rid of it yet not have to admit it was the wrong thing to
do in the first place.

[Montblack]

("Arnold Sten" wrote)
[snip]
> This interview was just after some undersecretary for Homeland Security
> stated to Wolf Blitzer that a "small aircraft of this size can carry 0ne
> or Two THOUSAND pounds of explosives". Talk about your typical uneducated
> Washington Bureaucrat!


I saw that on CNN too - ALERT ALERT. He said the plane itself would do
little damage, but they do have a maximum capacity of up to 2,000 lbs. I
knew what he was trying to get at - but I also heard how it came out.

Then Wolf immediately says, 'the important thing is, we didn't know if they
were carrying biological or chemical weapons in that little plane.'


Montblack
For the tough jobs, they always call in the minivans!!

[Jimmy B.]

Sport Pilot wrote:
>>Yes, it's silly for the gov't to scatter like hens when a Cessna
>
> approaches,
>
>>but that's not the point.
>
>
> Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.
>


With all this talk of A-bombs, I would like to say hello to all the
government agents who are now reading this thread.

HI GUYS!

We're all good Americans here!

[Jimmy B.]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>>> AOPA or the like should help make examples of these pilots, in a big
>>> public way. "We won't tolerate ignorance among our own and suggest
>>> immediate revocation of their flying privileges".
>>
>>
>>
>> At first blush upon reading this I thought "How ridiculous!"
>>
>> However, the more I consider it, the more I think John is onto
>> something here. If we, the pilot community, don't do something to
>> make it apparent that these morons who keep busting the TFRs are NOT
>> representative of the rest of us, nor do they reflect the predominant
>> attitude of most pilots, nor do they reflect a general lack of
>> intelligence shared by other pilots, I fear that the federal
>> government is simply going to make the whole danged East Coast a
>> no-fly zone.
>
>
> The ADIZ already encompasses an area with a population bigger than your
> entire state.


Yeah, and there goes AOPA's efforts to reopen the DC3.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "JohnH" >
wrote:

> Yes, it's silly for the gov't to scatter like hens when a Cessna approaches,
> but that's not the point.

well, it d--- well should be the point!

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Jay Masino]

Peter Clark > wrote:
> I'm not blaming the whole ADIZ fiasco on pilots, it's a ridiculous
> waste of energy to put on an ineffective show. But the area isn't an
> unknown any more, flying towards the prohibited airspace (unless they
> were vectored towards it?) contained within it isn't exactly smart
> even if you do have a transponder and 2way comms, and things like this
> make it more difficult on the people who want to but can't figure out
> how to get rid of it yet not have to admit it was the wrong thing to
> do in the first place.

One of the local stations apparently interviewed the student pilot's wife
(by phone). Apparently, he was well aware of the ADIZ and was worried
about navigating around it (or through it with the proper squawk). It
sounds to me like some kind of simple navigation problem that was allowed
to expand to some level of disorientation.

This is why a no-fly zone (enforced by deadly force) doesn't make any
sense in a free society. Human beings make mistakes from time to time,
and we're not living in the Soviet Union.

--- Jay


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Dave Stadt]

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> iflyatiger wrote:
> > I wonder how we look to people outside of the usa.
> >
> > When a single Cessna airplane can cause the government to shut down and
> > people to scramble in fear. Imagine what the people all over the world
some
> > of whom live in war zones or under daily fear of their evil governments
must
> > think of our chicken behavior...
> > I also cant help but wonder what the men and woman of our armed services
> > think of this. They live in danger everyday and then they see how their
> > leaders react to a small plane simply flying somewhere it shouldn't.
> >
> > Disgusting !!
> >
> Exactly. Its totally ridiculous that the US Government allows millions
> of illegals to cross its borders every month while it totally freaks out
> when a littel Cessna comes close to Washington DC. What a complete joke.
>
> Soon Washington DC will be like Berlin... barbed wires, tanks and
outposts.

That would be fine as long as the gates in the barbed wire only opened in.

[TF]

Flying from NJ I am super aware of that ADIZ zone. Instructor ?? Student
Pilot??
I went to Landings.com
http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$pass*72704370!_h-www.landings.com/_landings/pages/search/ac-cert.html

And did a search on these two guys and didn't get a hit. I don't know if
this is a comprehensive database or if you can opt to not be in it. "flown
by Jim Sheaffer of Lititz, Pa., and student pilot Troy Martin, of Akron,
Pa., "

Given the flight path S37 to KLBT I can envision a communication problem
with ATC. I wouldn't want to fly around the zone (Delaware Bay to the East,
higher terain and area P-40 to the West.) It was pretty hazy in the East
today. Who knows maybe it was a mix up. ATC (super super folks, I've a few
of them) have their hands full managing this busy airspace with the staff
and technology available.

Over reaction. Yes much like my mother in law who ask my wife if she will be
wearing a parachute for our local flight in a 172. (interesting she didn't
ask me).

[Bucky]

Arnold Sten wrote:
> AOPA Phil Boyer was interviewed on CNN at 1745 EDT. He set the record

> straight by stating that a C150, carrying two adults and full fuel
has
> little to no cargo capacity (polite way of saying no explosives).

It's easy to criticize afterwards because we now know the exact
circumstances. But during the situation, could they tell from radar
that it was a C150, carrying two adults, full fuel, and no explosives?

> This interview was just after some undersecretary for Homeland
Security
> stated to Wolf Blitzer that a "small aircraft of this size can carry
0ne
> or Two THOUSAND pounds of explosives". Talk about your typical
> uneducated Washington Bureaucrat!

Actually, he's right. He said "small aircraft of this size". He didn't
say the C150. The Cessna Turbo Stationair can carry 1338 lbs of useful
load.

[Dave Stadt]

"Jay Masino" > wrote in message
...
> The latest report on WTOP (news station in DC) was that the aircraft WAS
> squawking the correct code, but that there was some sort of communications
> problem. I'm glad to see that everyone was so willing to jump on top of
> our brother pilots.

A communication problem is no excuse for doing what they did. These guys
are from the area and have no excuse for not knowing about the restricted
area. They aren't my brothers,

>
>
> --
> __!__
> Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
> http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
> http://www.oceancityairport.com
> http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Dave Stadt]

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> W P Dixon wrote:
>
> > WOW!
> > One would have to be pretty stupid to fly over DC in todays world. I
> > can understand the "No Fly Zone" policy, but I can't understand why all
> > the cops in the area have to act like Soviet paratroopers are descending
> > around Washington Monument.
> Yeah, well it was a student pilot for God's sake. Lets Burn him/her at
the stake.
>
> > When onboard the USS Iwo Jima we almost had to shoot down a small GA
> > plane in the Med. He invaded our airspace, after the second warning
> > battle stations were called, all the cool anti aircraft machine guns and
> > missles came online. The Captain had them try him one last time and he
> > waved his wings and turned around. I often wonder if he actually
> > realized how close to dying he was.
> A military vessel at sea is a lot different than US city that is supposed
> to be the epitome of freedom in the civilized word.
>
> > So I can agree with most and say the DC police act like a bunch of
> > bent out of shape Campfire Girls running around screaming , but if a US
> > Warship has protected airspace..shouldn't the Capital of the US? What
> > excuse could a pilot give in VFR conditions for being to close to DC? Oh
> > I didn't know what DC looked like? I agree with the take their license
> > away.
>
> As I said, it was a stedent pilot... sheesh. And why not shut down the
> airspace around all US cities while we are at it? After all, Don Daley
> destroyed an airport in Chicago proportedly because of the "threat" of
> these dangerous GA aircraft.

One of them was a student pilot the other was at least a private. OBTW it
is Dick Daley, not Don.

[Dave Stadt]

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Masino wrote:
>
> > The latest report on WTOP (news station in DC) was that the aircraft WAS
> > squawking the correct code, but that there was some sort of
communications
> > problem. I'm glad to see that everyone was so willing to jump on top of
> > our brother pilots.
>
> Well stated Jay. How wonderful it would be if ALL pilots would speak with
> a single voice regarding the idiotic sitution this country is now in
because
> of its complete lack of balls to protect our borders or to even care who
waltzes
> in here from God knows wherever.
>
> I guess we will be left to just play tiddly winks until the next serious
> attack happens so we can propose even more draconian restrictions that
will
> only further aggravate law abiding U.S. citizens going about theit
business.
>
> Laws are only effective on the law-abiding. But shame on me for proposing
> that actual U.S. citizens get any preferred treatment over illegal aliens.

Granted, the current rules are nonsense but that doesn't give these two
nitwits the go ahead to fly into the restricted area. That's not how you
fix stupid rules. That's how you get more stupid rules.

[gatt]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message

> When DC is closed off to all vehicular traffic,

....they'll walk in or blow up the subway if they want.

It's really ridiculous. London endured the Blitz. America has got to stop
living in fear.

-c

[Dave Stadt]

"Sully" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 11 May 2005 20:03:57 +0100, "S." >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Paul kgyy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
> >> cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
> >> scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
> >> nation.
> >
> >
> >Hi Folks,
> >
> >As always, intelligent (sometimes pithy !) observation from members of
the
> >aviation community in the above postings ; I agree with all of it.
> >
> >Newsreel footage of EVERYONE in D.C. scattering in all directions has
just
> >been shown on Channel 4 news (U.K.) ; it looked like a badly made
disaster
> >movie. A police officer shouted "GET OUT, NOW !" to the floor of the
House.
> >Unseemly and totally lacking in composure or dignity.
> >
> >If this is what an off-track Cessna can do the the worlds most
> >technologically powerful and sophisticated nation, I have to ask "Have
the
> >terrorists already won ?".
>
> I would have to say that the answer to this question is a resounding
> YES! Between people living in fear in that area of a possible attack
> (mostly because of our wonderful news media), and all the restrictions
> that are placed on wrong people or wrong areas they have at least
> scored a huge victory in the battle if not the war. The ironic part
> is that while we are imposing all these rules on people who are here
> legally we still have people who want give "illegal aliens" driver's
> licenses and jobs!( I know another topic all together)
>
> >
> >I hope to go to San Diego, and work my way up to CPL in August, achieving
> >the last of my life's ambitions at 48.It would be tragic if the
authorities
> >were to restrict the people who could take the controls of an aircraft,
by
> >way of "security measures".
> >
> >Idiots like this one today may curtail that, if they don't take the ease
of
> >access to flying, just a little bit less for granted.
> >
> >
>
> Something to remember though through all of this is that it was a
> "STUDENT" and instructor. The instructor maybe should have been
> paying a little more attention and take much better action and paid a
> little more attention but I know that there were many times my
> instructor sat silently waiting to see how long it would take for me
> to correct my mistakes. Of course I myself would have went out of my
> way to aviod the hassle of that area completely but the instructor may
> have wanted the student to get a lesson on dealing with the ADIZ since
> he would be flying in that area..to the instructor's credit the
> student just got a lesson that he will never forget if he gets to fly
> again!!

I'd like to see how the instructor logs this flight in the student's log
book.

[Jose]

> Granted, the current rules are nonsense but that doesn't give these two
> nitwits the go ahead to fly into the restricted area. That's not how you
> fix stupid rules. That's how you get more stupid rules.

Just idly thinking here after two glasses of wine, but what if =all= the
spam cans in the country formed a line and flew directly over the white
house at 2000 feet with no transponder code and no clearance, and kept
doing it even as we were being shot down? What do you think the
eventual effect of this would be?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Masino]

Dave Stadt > wrote:
> A communication problem is no excuse for doing what they did. These guys
> are from the area and have no excuse for not knowing about the restricted
> area. They aren't my brothers,

Some reports say that they, in fact, had an ADIZ squawk code. That would
suggest that they were atleast trying to do follow the correct procedure.
It would be nice if we allowed them to be innocent until proven
guilty. Human beings make mistakes, occasionally.


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Franklin Newton]

Exactly how much airspace does a vessel at sea in international waters own,
who controls it, and what treatys, if any, grant control to any particular
vessel?

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> WOW!
> One would have to be pretty stupid to fly over DC in todays world. I
can
> understand the "No Fly Zone" policy, but I can't understand why all the
cops
> in the area have to act like Soviet paratroopers are descending around
> Washington Monument.
> When onboard the USS Iwo Jima we almost had to shoot down a small GA
> plane in the Med. He invaded our airspace, after the second warning battle
> stations were called, all the cool anti aircraft machine guns and missles
> came online. The Captain had them try him one last time and he waved his
> wings and turned around. I often wonder if he actually realized how close
to
> dying he was.
> So I can agree with most and say the DC police act like a bunch of
bent
> out of shape Campfire Girls running around screaming , but if a US Warship
> has protected airspace..shouldn't the Capital of the US? What excuse could
a
> pilot give in VFR conditions for being to close to DC? Oh I didn't know
what
> DC looked like? I agree with the take their license away.
> The news channels were saying that it would take the plane 90 seconds
to
> reach the Capital or White House from the 3 mile radius....bet that 3 mile
> becomes 10 miles soon. We can thank this latest idiot as well as the
> Governor of Kentucky's pilots! ;)
>
> Patrick
> student SPL
> aircraft structural mech
>

[W P Dixon]

Well kontiki,
I am a student pilot and I have enough sense to not fly to the White House.
Doesn't VFR mean being able to see the ground? Please correct me if I am
wrong there. Is there really any American who can not tell what Washington
DC looks like ? I wonder if he was flying with his instructor? I do not know
the answer to that.., blame the CFI , if it was a CFI with him? Probably
none of us know all the details, but from what I do know, I would rip their
certificates up. But hey, that's my humble opinion. Could it change as more
facts are known , sure I am flexible. But things don't look to good from
what I do know.
Oh and I do agree with you, if we would do something to control our
borders we would be alot better off....maybe even not have to take away
Americans rights, and "strip search Grandma at the airport" ;) Our nation's
security should start at the border, not at a St. Louis airport in the
middle of the country.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> Yeah, well it was a student pilot for God's sake. Lets Burn him/her at
> the stake.
>
> As I said, it was a stedent pilot... sheesh. And why not shut down the
> airspace around all US cities while we are at it? After all, Don Daley
> destroyed an airport in Chicago proportedly because of the "threat" of
> these dangerous GA aircraft.
>

[Dan Luke]

"Arnold Sten" wrote:
> It is indeed unfortunate that the general, non-aviation public only
> receives its information from the likes of CNN, MSNBC, etc., etc. When was
> the last time any of you saw any mention of the hundreds or even thousands
> of pilots small, private airplanes in a responsible and safe manner.

Tonight, on CNN.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Charles O'Rourke]

Jose wrote:
> Just idly thinking here after two glasses of wine, but what if =all= the
> spam cans in the country formed a line and flew directly over the white
> house at 2000 feet with no transponder code and no clearance, and kept
> doing it even as we were being shot down? What do you think the
> eventual effect of this would be?

No more spam cans?

Charles.
-N8385U

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Masino wrote:
> Dave Stadt > wrote:
>
>>A communication problem is no excuse for doing what they did. These guys
>>are from the area and have no excuse for not knowing about the restricted
>>area. They aren't my brothers,
>
>
> Some reports say that they, in fact, had an ADIZ squawk code. That would
> suggest that they were atleast trying to do follow the correct procedure.
> It would be nice if we allowed them to be innocent until proven
> guilty. Human beings make mistakes, occasionally.

It doesn't appear to be at question whether or not they penetrated the
restricted (prohibited?) area. Therefore, they are guilty period. It
was probably not intentional, but that has no bearing on guilt or
innocence in this case. If they flew into the area, they are guilty.
It really is that simple.


Matt

[John T]

> wrote in message

>
> 2) There are probably less than 1,000,000 active pilots in this
> country - that's a tiny proportion of the general population.

Actually, about half that number (some 0.2% of the US population).

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[George Patterson]

gatt wrote:
>
> It's really ridiculous. London endured the Blitz. America has got to stop
> living in fear.

Not a good example. Small planes have been banned from the airspace over London
for decades.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[John T]

"smf" > wrote in message

>
> Come on guys, rules are rules! No-Fly Zone means just that. Mistakes
> are made but don't discount the mistake.

Sorry, but this is stepping on a raw nerve. Show me any navigation chart or
NOTAM establishing a "no-fly zone" around Washington.

It's a two-layer airspace restriction: The larger Air Defense
Identification Zone and an inner Flight Restricted Zone. Flights - even by
GA aircraft - routinely fly in both zones. There is *not* a "no-fly zone"
around DC.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[John T]

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message

>
> I can understand the "No Fly Zone" policy

What "No Fly Zone" policy?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Montblack]

("Jimmy B." wrote)
> With all this talk of A-bombs, I would like to say hello to all the
> government agents who are now reading this thread.
>
> HI GUYS!
>
> We're all good Americans here!


I thought it was decided that we weren't .. I mean all good Americans ...I
mean we weren't all Americans here on the newsgroups.

"Knock, knock, knock." - Oh crap!!

So your plan was to drop your suitcase bomb last Monday?
Yes, but the weather wouldn't cooperate - low ceilings all day.

What about last Wednesday? What happened to that plan?
Wheel shimmy and a locking brake. That plane will be ready in 3 weeks.

And this past weekend?
Couldn't get a plane. Weather was great, all the planes were rented.

And yesterday?
Only thing available was the Lance. We're not checked out in the Lance.


Montblack
Loathing terrorists (and gang-bangers)
Fearing American Gulags

[Ray Bengen]

Small SINGLE-ENGINE planes are banned not MULTI's.

Still, it is quite ridicilous. I wonder how many people would be suprised
to know a fully-loaded Cessna 150 would bounce of the side of the
Washington Memorial...

Forget about the Statue of Liberty.

Anyhow, I think it'll be forgotten.

IMO.

On Thu, 12 May 2005 01:57:14 GMT, George Patterson >
wrote:

> gatt wrote:
>> It's really ridiculous. London endured the Blitz. America has got to
>> stop
>> living in fear.
>
> Not a good example. Small planes have been banned from the airspace over
> London for decades.
>
> George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to
> the
> mashed potatoes.



--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

[George Patterson]

Paul kgyy wrote:
> True to the rugged pioneer spirit of our great country, DC cowered for
> cover again as a Cessna violated the no-fly zone. Fighter jets were
> scrambled to deal with this imminent threat to the security of our
> nation.

Seems like every time Congress starts putting pressure on to eliminate the ADIZ,
something like this happens. Wouldn't surprise me to find that the TSA is
somehow behind sending the Cessna through.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George Patterson]

Jose wrote:
>
> Just idly thinking here after two glasses of wine, but what if =all= the
> spam cans in the country formed a line and flew directly over the white
> house at 2000 feet with no transponder code and no clearance, and kept
> doing it even as we were being shot down? What do you think the
> eventual effect of this would be?

I suppose they wouldn't need the ADIZ anymore.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Montblack]

("Jose" wrote)
> Just idly thinking here after two glasses of wine, but what if =all= the
> spam cans in the country formed a line and flew directly over the white
> house at 2000 feet with no transponder code and no clearance, and kept
> doing it even as we were being shot down? What do you think the
> eventual effect of this would be?


Much recyclable aluminum on the ground in DC.


Montblack - no smiley

[Larry Dighera]

On 11 May 2005 16:42:57 -0700, "Bucky" > wrote in
. com>::

>The Cessna Turbo Stationair can carry 1338 lbs of useful
>load.

Piper PA28-235, a four-place, four cylinder, useful load is 1,400 lbs.
Of course, that doesn't take into account the safety margin required
to meet certification standards. ...

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 21:11:04 -0400, "W P Dixon"
> wrote in
>::

>I am a student pilot and I have enough sense to not fly to the White House.
>Doesn't VFR mean being able to see the ground?

Not in the US.

[George Patterson]

Sully wrote:
>
> Something to remember though through all of this is that it was a
> "STUDENT" and instructor.

Where did you hear it was an instructor? The AOPA blurb doesn't say that, and
the landings database doesn't show a CFI certificate for Jim Schaeffer.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Larry Dighera]

>And did a search on these two guys and didn't get a hit. I don't know if
>this is a comprehensive database or if you can opt to not be in it. "flown
>by Jim Sheaffer of Lititz, Pa., and student pilot Troy Martin, of Akron,
>Pa., "


Airmen Database Search Result
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name : SHEAFFER JR, HAYDEN LOWERY
Airman's Address : XXXXX
LITITZ, PA, 17543-9702
FAA Region : Eastern
Date of Medical : Jun, 2003
Class of Medical : 3
Expiration of Class 3 privileges : Jun, 2005
Airman Certificates : Private Pilot
Airplane Single Engine Land

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 01:57:14 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote in <_Jyge.1534$R13.625@trndny09>::

>gatt wrote:
>>
>> It's really ridiculous. London endured the Blitz. America has got to stop
>> living in fear.
>
>Not a good example. Small planes have been banned from the airspace over London
>for decades.

Thanks for the information.

Be that as it may, the good people of London chose to continue
business as usual in the face of nightly air raids of hundreds of
bombers, unlike those in DC who abandoned their posts in panic at the
approach of a Cessna 152.

[JohnH]

> Just idly thinking here after two glasses of wine, but what if =all=
> the spam cans in the country formed a line and flew directly over the
> white house at 2000 feet with no transponder code and no clearance,
> and kept doing it even as we were being shot down? What do you think
> the eventual effect of this would be?

This administration's justification to invade Iran. Or Cananda.

[Flyingmonkl]

Love it! Montblack!

Flyingmonk

[Flyingmonkl]

I second and third that Jay!

I used to be able to take my mom and other visiting friends and fly
them around the White House, the CIA HQ at Langley, The Capitol, The
Pentagon all below 200' AGL.

My mom would say, "My boy is flying me to see Clinton's house, duh
Capitol, CIA, duh Pentagona. America has been good to my boy! What a
great country!" while showing the tape to her friends in Toulouse
France.

Those days are gone... Thank a F'ing lot! Bin Ladin!

Flyingmonk

[Sully]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 02:26:13 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

>Sully wrote:
>>
>> Something to remember though through all of this is that it was a
>> "STUDENT" and instructor.
>
>Where did you hear it was an instructor? The AOPA blurb doesn't say that, and
>the landings database doesn't show a CFI certificate for Jim Schaeffer.
>
>George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

After checking CNN again you are right it did say Pilot and Student.
Not real sure where I heard instructor, think it was local radio
though but we know how the news media verifies facts before
publishing.

[W P Dixon]

Larry ,
Could you please indulge me as to VFR for PPL , I could not find any
reference to ground . Sport Pilots however have this limit " visual
reference to the ground." FAR 61.315

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

[George Patterson]

Larry Dighera wrote:
>>And did a search on these two guys and didn't get a hit. I don't know if
>>this is a comprehensive database or if you can opt to not be in it. "flown
>>by Jim Sheaffer of Lititz, Pa., and student pilot Troy Martin, of Akron,
>>Pa., "
>
> Airmen Database Search Result
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Name : SHEAFFER JR, HAYDEN LOWERY

I guess if someone saddled me with the name "Hayden Lowery", I'd go by "Jim" too.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Flyingmonk]

Woah Gene! I fly near DC. Used to fly IN DC. while I totally
understand your feelings, It is just too close to home for me to go
along with that one! LOL I'll try not to be in the news.

Flyingmonk

[Flyingmonk]

I think that out of 500 spam cans, one or two might crash due to
condition and we'd all be blamed for it.

Flyingmonk

[Dave Stadt]

"Jay Masino" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Stadt > wrote:
> > A communication problem is no excuse for doing what they did. These
guys
> > are from the area and have no excuse for not knowing about the
restricted
> > area. They aren't my brothers,
>
> Some reports say that they, in fact, had an ADIZ squawk code. That would
> suggest that they were atleast trying to do follow the correct procedure.
> It would be nice if we allowed them to be innocent until proven
> guilty. Human beings make mistakes, occasionally.

There is absolutely no doubt they are guilty. Humans make mistakes and in
this country must often suffer the consequences for those mistakes. Ooooops
I made a mistake is not something a judge or jury is going to accept as a
defense.

>
>
> --
> __!__
> Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
> http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
> http://www.oceancityairport.com
> http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Mike W.]

2.6 hrs, intercept procedures (actual)

--
Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....

<snip, for god's sake>

> I'd like to see how the instructor logs this flight in the student's log
> book.
>
>

[Christopher Campbell]

On 5/11/05 3:12 PM, in article , "x-ray"
> wrote:

> "Sport Pilot" > wrote:
>>
>> Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.
>
>
> Apparently you do not understand nuclear weapons.
>
> 1) You can NOT put "A bomb" in a suitcase.
> 2) Considering the weight of such "suitcase" it would take 4 people to carry
> it.
> 3) You need explosives to compress the plutonium to approx 3 times normal
> density, not to mention the weight of the shielding you need, unless you
> want to be a martyr.
> 4) By skipping 3) the device would be enough radioactive to harm the one who
> is carrying it -> they would be dead before they got to target!
> 5) Oh, by the way, by skipping 3) radiation sensors around various areas
> would go ape ****.
>
> In short, "A bomb" suitcase is nothing but paranoia (but that's already
> mentioned in thread, so i won't go into it again).
>
>

The W-48 155mm nuclear artillery round is 34" long and weighs about 110 lbs.
It could fit diagonally in a large suitcase, especially if you removed the
fusing and other unnecessary parts of the case. Yield is about 70 tons of
TNT. It would probably kill everyone within 400 yards of it, mostly with
radiation. However, all of these weapons are accounted for.

The Mk-54 SADM (Small Atomic Demolition Munition) was a man-carried bomb
developed by the US. It was a variant of the W-48, but was a cylinder 40cm X
60cm and it weighed 68kg. An interesting weapon, to be sure, but I think
they have all been decommissioned.

The Soviets claimed to have built prototype suitcase weapons 20cm thick. A
linear triggered device (as opposed to the implosion types most people seem
to be thinking of) can theoretically be made 5cm thick, but it would take a
special development effort well beyond the capabilities of anyone but an
extremely advanced nuclear power such as the US, and it appears that we have
never been interested in such a weapon. The smallest weapon ever tested by
the US was the UCRL Swift device in 1956. It had a diameter of 5", was 24.5"
long, and weighed 96 lbs. It had a yield of 190 tons. It was supposed to be
a trigger for a fusion bomb, but it might have been a step along the way to
the W-48.

So yes, suitcase bombs are possible and some may have even been developed.
They would have explosive power in the range of a few hundred tons of TNT
instead of the kilotons that we usually think of when talking about nuclear
weapons. A terrorist would be extremely unlikely to get his hands on such a
device and even less likely be able to credibly build one. Not that it would
be impossible. China, for example, might consider a terrorist nuclear attack
on the US to be a useful way of distracting our attention from Taiwan. A
rather scary thought.

Plutonium is poisonous, radioactive, and explosive (even at less than
critical mass), but that does not mean an unshielded bomb would kill a
terrorist before he got a chance to deliver it to his target. After all,
plutonium is even used in pacemakers.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 23:03:48 -0400, "W P Dixon"
> wrote in
>::

>Could you please indulge me as to VFR for PPL , I could not find any
>reference to ground .

You can't find it, because it's not in the FARs.

[Mike W.]

Weapon would be much more effective if detonated at altitude.

--
Hello, my name is Mike, and I am an airplane addict....

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Sport Pilot wrote:
> >>Yes, it's silly for the gov't to scatter like hens when a Cessna
> >
> > approaches,
> >
> >>but that's not the point.
> >
> >
> > Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.
> >
> A Geo Metro could carry a similar size bomb and could have gotten closer
> to the Capitol than the plane managed to do.

[Matt Barrow]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> kontiki wrote:
>
> > Soon Washington DC will be like Berlin... barbed wires, tanks and
outposts.
> >
> You haven't been here recently, have you. It already looks like that.

I didn't look that way during World War II, but it started getting that
ambiance during the 90's already.

Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Mike W.]

"John T" > wrote in message
m...
> Sorry, but this is stepping on a raw nerve. Show me any navigation chart
or
> NOTAM establishing a "no-fly zone" around Washington.

3/2126 PART 4 OF 4 FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS WASHINGTON DC. 5. PRIOR TO OPERATING
THE AIRCRAFT IN THIS ADIZ, THE FLIGHT CREW OBTAINS A DISCRETE TRANSPONDER
CODE FROM ATC; 6. THE AIRCRAFT''S TRANSPONDER CONTINUOUSLY TRANSMITS THE ATC
ISSUED DISCRETE TRANSPONDER CODE WHILE THE AIRCRAFT IS OPERATING IN THIS
ADIZ; 7. PRIOR TO OPERATING AN AIRCRAFT IN THE DC ADIZ, PILOTS MUST FILE
THEIR FLIGHT PLAN WITH AN AFSS; MUST ACTIVATE THEIR FLIGHT PLAN PRIOR TO
DEPARTURE OR ENTERING THE DC ADIZ; AND CLOSE THEIR FLIGHT PLANS UPON LANDING
OR LEAVING THE DC ADIZ. B. AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS BY THE U.S. MILITARY, LAW
ENFORCEMENT, AND AEROMEDICAL FLIGHTS ARE EXEMPT FROM THE REQUIREMENTS OF
PART II A. PARAGRAPH 7. PART III. THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES APPLY WITHIN THE
WASHINGTON DC METROPOLITAN FRZ. A. UNLESS SPECIFICALLY AUTHORIZED BY THE FAA
IN CONSULTATION WITH THE UNITED STATES SECRET SERVICE AND THE TRANSPORTATION
SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, ALL PARTS 91, 101, 103, 105, 125, 133, 135, 137
FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN THE WASHINGTON D.C. METROPOLITAN
FRZ. B. THESE RESTRICTIONS DO NOT APPLY TO DOD, LAW ENFORCEMENT, OR
AEROMEDICAL FLIGHT OPERATIONS THAT ARE IN CONTACT WITH ATC AND ARE
DISPLAYING AN ATC ASSIGNED DISCRETE TRANSPONDER BEACON CODE. END PART 4 OF 4
WIE UNTIL UFN

call it what you will, they shouldn't have been there.

> It's a two-layer airspace restriction: The larger Air Defense
> Identification Zone and an inner Flight Restricted Zone. Flights - even
by
> GA aircraft - routinely fly in both zones. There is *not* a "no-fly zone"
> around DC.

Routinely? c'mon.

> --
> John T
> http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
> http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
> ____________________
>
>

[Jay Beckman]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Jimmy B." wrote)
>> With all this talk of A-bombs, I would like to say hello to all the
>> government agents who are now reading this thread.
>>
>> HI GUYS!
>>
>> We're all good Americans here!
>
>
> I thought it was decided that we weren't .. I mean all good Americans ...I
> mean we weren't all Americans here on the newsgroups.
>
> "Knock, knock, knock." - Oh crap!!
>
> So your plan was to drop your suitcase bomb last Monday?
> Yes, but the weather wouldn't cooperate - low ceilings all day.
>
> What about last Wednesday? What happened to that plan?
> Wheel shimmy and a locking brake. That plane will be ready in 3 weeks.
>
> And this past weekend?
> Couldn't get a plane. Weather was great, all the planes were rented.
>
> And yesterday?
> Only thing available was the Lance. We're not checked out in the Lance.
>
>
> Montblack
> Loathing terrorists (and gang-bangers)
> Fearing American Gulags

Thanks for the Renter's Guide to Domestic Sedition... <Chuckle>

Jay B

[W P Dixon]

Interesting! I wonder how that works? Hard to have a visual if you can not
see? Not trying to be a smart ass or anything just trying to get the whole
picture.
but it is in the FAR under Sport Pilot rules;)
Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> You can't find it, because it's not in the FARs.

[Grumman-581]

"Mike W." wrote in message ...
> Weapon would be much more effective if detonated at altitude.

Despends upon what you're trying to accomplish... Fallout works better with
a subsurface blast... Do it right and more people will die from the fallout
than the original blast...

[Grumman-581]

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
news:2005051200375350073%bodhijunkoneeightyeightju nkatmacdotcom@junkjunk...
> Ha! You guys voted for these monsters, now you're whining...I love it!

Nawh, I voted that we nuke the whole ****in' Middle East... They said we
would get bad PR if we did that... Like the current methodology gets good
PR? Yeah... Right...

[Jay Beckman]

"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
message
news:200505120044368930%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun katmacdotcom@junkjunk...
> On 2005-05-11 19:37:12 -0400, (Jay Masino) said:
>
>> Human beings make mistakes from time to time,
>> and we're not living in the Soviet Union.
>>
>
>
> I think you'd better look again.
>

C'mon Tom,

Did you have to stand in line for 12 hours today to get bread and a couple
of tins of month old sardines? Did you have to walk to work because there
was no gas to be had for your car? Are you wearing multiple layers of
clothing right now because you have no heat? Are you sharing your bed with
6 other people?

Notice anyone at work stopping and taking notes while you talked to a
co-worker? Any strange clicks or beeps when you used your phone? Did you
feel as if you were being followed as you came home? Did you notice that
the left turn lane had cops standing there so that only large black limos
could use those lanes?

Are there armed men kicking in your door right now? Are they confiscating
everything you own and getting ready to give you a 9mm labotomy or worse?

Are they hearding your family into a truck and taking them away so that
you'll never see them again? This is, of course, after they make a couple
of other stops to collect your parents, your brothers and sisters and that
maiden aunt you love so much.

You used 6 words...I used 4 paragraphs but hyperbole is hyperbole.

We ain't the Soviet Union ... not by a damn sight.

Jay Beckman
Chandler, AZ

[Thomas Borchert]

Iflyatiger,

> I wonder how we look to people outside of the usa.
>

Same happened here in Germany. Politicos all over the world are the
same. This over-reaction give John Dumb Voter a warm and fuzzy feeling
- so they do it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Arnold,

> He set the record
> straight by stating that a C150, carrying two adults and full fuel has
> little to no cargo capacity (polite way of saying no explosives).
>

Say again after me: That's not relevant, that's not relevant, that's not
relevant.

No one give a flying f how dangerous "small planes" really are. People
are afraid of them - and politicos make use of that to increase their
power. Simple as that. Marketing 1o1. And it's easy to avoid. By not
flying into that prohibited zone.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

JohnH,

> but it's these moron pilots who are going to
> put an end to YOUR pastime.
>

I fully agree. Pilots are not important, the majority of voters is. And
they LIKE it if the government generates a feeling of pseudo-safety by
these shows of force.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Dave,

good post! I can't understand why so many here don't understand that
it's not at all about how dangerous our planes really are.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Martin,

> it was _very_ funny to watch.
>

As a holder of a pilot certificate? Sorry, no fun at all. Just worry. A
LOT of worry. How long do you expect to be able to continue flying as a
private pilot if these idiot pilots continue doing what they do?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Arketip]

Jay Beckman wrote:

> C'mon Tom,
>
> Did you have to stand in line for 12 hours today to get bread and a couple
> of tins of month old sardines? Did you have to walk to work because there
> was no gas to be had for your car? Are you wearing multiple layers of
> clothing right now because you have no heat? Are you sharing your bed with
> 6 other people?
>
> Notice anyone at work stopping and taking notes while you talked to a
> co-worker? Any strange clicks or beeps when you used your phone? Did you
> feel as if you were being followed as you came home? Did you notice that
> the left turn lane had cops standing there so that only large black limos
> could use those lanes?
>
> Are there armed men kicking in your door right now? Are they confiscating
> everything you own and getting ready to give you a 9mm labotomy or worse?
>
> Are they hearding your family into a truck and taking them away so that
> you'll never see them again? This is, of course, after they make a couple
> of other stops to collect your parents, your brothers and sisters and that
> maiden aunt you love so much.
>
> You used 6 words...I used 4 paragraphs but hyperbole is hyperbole.
>
> We ain't the Soviet Union ... not by a damn sight.
>
> Jay Beckman
> Chandler, AZ
>
>

You mean the old Soviet Union, right?

[Arketip]

Ray Bengen wrote:

> Small SINGLE-ENGINE planes are banned not MULTI's.
>
> Still, it is quite ridicilous. I wonder how many people would be
> suprised to know a fully-loaded Cessna 150 would bounce of the side of
> the Washington Memorial...
>
> Forget about the Statue of Liberty.
>
> Anyhow, I think it'll be forgotten.
>
> IMO.
>
> On Thu, 12 May 2005 01:57:14 GMT, George Patterson
I don't know if it is a new regulation, but about 10 years ago I
overflew the city at 2400 ft, twice in one weekend, as asked by ATC, and
met plenty of ULM on the way.

[x-ray]

Christopher Campbell > wrote:
>The W-48 155mm nuclear artillery round is 34" long and weighs about 110 lbs.
>It could fit diagonally in a large suitcase,

errrr no it woudldn't. Typical size of a suitcase (and the one claimed by
Lebed) is 24x16x8". And it would take two-three people to carry such
suitcase (depending on the required distance). And that's an every day sight
on the street or airport, right? Three people carying ONE briefcase - it
really doesn't look suspicus at all! By omitting the shielding, your device
will trigger the most cheapest toy radiation sensor (not to mention the
sophisticated ones that would detect you long before you even get into
plane).

The relatively short halflife of Pu239 means that a large amount of energy
is emitted through radioactive decay. The Pu239 produces about 2 watt/kg.
That's why a piece of Pu239 is warm. If you would use "Lebed's suitcase"
design with only Pu and explosive, the temperature of suitcase would rise
from room temperature to the boiling point of water in less than two hours.
(And to the alpha-beta transition point soon after). I guess they deliver
you "Lebed's refrigerator" for FREE of charge when you buy "Lebed's suitcase
nuke". Or maybe the suitcase has a built *large* cooler and a fan on the
outside, making it look like a large scale model of a cpu with intel sticker
on it - while 3 people carry it around the airport.

>The Soviets claimed to have built prototype suitcase weapons 20cm thick. A

Do you have some relevant document/reference that proves this? It's getting
pretty annoying with stroies of "suitcase nukes", "aliens in area 51" and
"We were not on the Moon" conspiracies. (No hard feelings)

[Dylan Smith]

In article . com>, Sport Pilot wrote:
> Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.

Of course they'd have to actually acquire one first. The only A bomb
that the terrorists could construct themselves would be a
Hiroshima-style gun type bomb (something as compact as a 'suitcase sized
bomb' is orders of magnitude more complex and requires much more
precision engineering).

A simple gun-type bomb of any useful yield would not fit in a C150.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article <_Jyge.1534$R13.625@trndny09>, George Patterson wrote:
> gatt wrote:
>>
>> It's really ridiculous. London endured the Blitz. America has got to stop
>> living in fear.
>
> Not a good example. Small planes have been banned from the airspace over London
> for decades.

No they haven't, they aren't even prohibited now. You see light planes
at London City which is right in the middle of Canary Wharf.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2005 01:57:14 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote in <_Jyge.1534$R13.625@trndny09>::
>>Not a good example. Small planes have been banned from the airspace over London
>>for decades.
>
> Thanks for the information.

Pity it's not correct!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Jose wrote:
>>> Yes, it's silly for the gov't to scatter like hens when a Cessna
>>> approaches, but that's not the point.
>>
>> Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.
>
> and how is this different from having the gov't scatter like hens when a
> small car approaches? It's not like you have to approach very closely
> with an A-bomb.

With the yield of an A-bomb that you could carry in a C150, you'd need
to. The largest nuclear weapon you could practically carry in a C150
would be something like a Davy Crockett. This was a nuclear bazooka
round weighing in at 76lbs, with a (user selectable) yield of between
10t and 250t of TNT.

You'd have to get it within 0.5km if *airburst* to be effective - if
exploded on the ground, its destructive range would be very short (maybe
a city block) - you'd have to drive right up to the gates of the White
House.

Of course if they had the Davy Crockett launcher too, they would only
have to get within 3 miles or so.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, x-ray wrote:
> Apparently you do not understand nuclear weapons.
>
> 1) You can NOT put "A bomb" in a suitcase.

The US manufactured (and tested) the Davy Crockett nuclear bazooka. It
certainly qualifies as a suitcase-sized nuclear weapon. It was a pure
fission implosion design, with a maximum yield of around 250t TNT. It
was also pretty close to the smallest theoretical size for a nuclear
weapon.

It weighed about 76lbs and was man-portable. They were actually deployed
in the field without the soldiers dying of radiation sickness. There are
photographs of them being tested in the Nevada desert.

They were designed to destroy advancing Russian tank columns, but it
would have been a last ditch suicide mission for the soldiers to use
them - at the range they would probably have had to set the fuse, the
prompt ionizing radiation would also have killed the soldiers using them
even at the lowest yield settings.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Christopher Campbell wrote:
> never been interested in such a weapon. The smallest weapon ever tested by
> the US was the UCRL Swift device in 1956.

I think the Davy Crockett round they tested in the early 60s was
actually smaller than that, I think it had a yield of around 20t (but I
could be wrong).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article . com>, Gene Seibel wrote:
> Threats don't do any good unless one believes they will be carried out.
> Shooting down one Cessna would wake up a lot of pilots.

Exemplary 'justice' is not justice. Also consider the people below that
the burning parts of missile and aircraft would rain down on - why
should they deserve to die also?

Those pilots do NOT deserve to be shot down, and it would not be
justice. They SHOULD have an appropriate punishment that any pilot would
get for violating a prohibited area of airspace.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Martin Hotze wrote:
> "W P Dixon" > wrote:
>
>> When onboard the USS Iwo Jima we almost had to shoot down a small GA
>> plane in the Med. He invaded our airspace
>
> how is this possible? you were in the Mediterrean sea. do you have airspace
> there?

When you have all those guns, you have airspace. Remember the Iranian
airliner that got shot down? (Just so we're being fair and even handed,
remember the B747 the Soviets shot down too when that went off-course).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, kontiki wrote:
> Exactly! All that going on in Washington while our borders remain Wide-ass
> open for millions of illegals to come streaming in every week. The activity in
> Washington is tantamount to locking the barn after the horses have escaped.

Millions?

OK, let's look at the numbers. Having lived in south Texas, I know most
of the illegal immigrants are Mexicans.

The population of Mexico is 106M.

Since you specify millions (plural), that means at least two million per
week. If that were the case, Mexico would have long ago been empty; at a
rate of 2M per week, it would only take 53 weeks for Mexico to be
totally empty.

I think you are exaggerating by at least three orders of magnitude.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Ron Natalie]

Grumman-581 wrote:
> "Mike W." wrote in message ...
>
>>Weapon would be much more effective if detonated at altitude.
>
>
> Despends upon what you're trying to accomplish... Fallout works better with
> a subsurface blast... Do it right and more people will die from the fallout
> than the original blast...
>
>
You have to realize that the rules for the ADIZ and FRZ have squat to
do with protecting the people of DC. It's the secret service
protecting the president backed up by the selfish nature of our
elected legislature that is responsible for the rules.

[Gary Drescher]

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> Interesting! I wonder how that works? Hard to have a visual if you can not
> see? Not trying to be a smart ass or anything just trying to get the whole
> picture.

For purposes of visual versus instrument flight rules, the required
visibility conditions are specified for purposes of separation, not
navigation or aviation. That is, as long as you can see well enough to keep
from colliding with other aircraft, there's no requirement to be able to
tell where you are without use of instruments, or even to be able to keep
the plane upright without use of instruments.

--Gary

[John T]

"Mike W." > wrote in message

>
> 3/2126 PART 4 OF 4 FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS
> ...
> call it what you will, they shouldn't have been there.

No, they shouldn't have been there, but that does *not* mean the ADIZ or FRZ
is a "no-fly zone". Show me the part of that NOTAM that says "no flight is
permitted".

>> It's a two-layer airspace restriction: The larger Air Defense
>> Identification Zone and an inner Flight Restricted Zone. Flights -
>> even by GA aircraft - routinely fly in both zones. There is *not* a
>> "no-fly zone" around DC.
>
> Routinely? c'mon.

Yes! Routinely. Even flight instruction from the DC-3.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Gary Drescher]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
...
> There is absolutely no doubt they are guilty. Humans make mistakes and in
> this country must often suffer the consequences for those mistakes.
> Ooooops
> I made a mistake is not something a judge or jury is going to accept as a
> defense.

If you're referring to criminal guilt ("judge or jury"), do you have a
statute in mind? The FBI has already concluded that since the incursion was
unintentional, no criminal charges will be filed.

--Gary

[kontiki]

Could be dangerous unless you are trained in formation flying. ;^)

[Ron Natalie]

Mike W. wrote:
> "John T" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>Sorry, but this is stepping on a raw nerve. Show me any navigation chart
>
> or
>
>>NOTAM establishing a "no-fly zone" around Washington.
>
The WASHINGTON Sectional and Terminal Area charts for over
a year now depict both the ADIZ and the FRX. The FRZ as well
as the expanded prohibited area over Camp David are displayed
on a white background. This is a depiction used nowhere else
in US charting.

>

[kontiki]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> One of them was a student pilot the other was at least a private. OBTW it
> is Dick Daley, not Don.

The "Don" was a tongue in cheek reference to his mob-boss like control over Chicago.

[Ron Natalie]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>kontiki wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Soon Washington DC will be like Berlin... barbed wires, tanks and
>
> outposts.
>
>>You haven't been here recently, have you. It already looks like that.
>
>
> I didn't look that way during World War II, but it started getting that
> ambiance during the 90's already.

No, in WWII (and up until President Kennedy started reversing it),
Washington looked like a military base. The city is home and
business ground to a ton of service members. Supposedly temporary
munitions and other cheap military construction were thrown up on
the mall and other "vacant" land. Kennedy relaxed the uniform
requirements, which gave a much more civilian appearance to town.
The DC heydey was around the bicentennial when they finally removed
a lot of old WWII military stuff from the mall and generally
cleaned up the public areas.

The thing started to decline again after a few security incidents
around the White House. Pennsylvania avenue was closed (for good)
as well as many of the other streets around the White House.
Every public building is now ringed with a variety of barricades.
The real casualty has been the Washington monument which has been
surrounded with construction fencing for the past year (hopefully
the unveiling will be prettier than the ring of jersey wall that
they had previously errected around it). Throw in the ill-conceived
and Hitler-esque WWII memorial and the DC downtown is currently
under a blight only surpassed from the thirties when the mall
essentially was relegated to being a freight yard.

[Ron Natalie]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> "Sport Pilot" > wrote:
>
>
>>>Yes, it's silly for the gov't to scatter like hens when a Cessna
>>
>>approaches,
>>
>>>but that's not the point.
>>
>>Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.
>
>
>
> very dumb idea to fly a bomb to DC when you can walk there and deliver it
> directly.
>
>
The White House is a little better protected, but the Capitol you could
drive a semitrailer upto if you were willing to die for the cause. I've
already been caught in traffic when delivery trucks got lost on the hill
(trucks are supposedly restricted). Of course, when a delivery truck
strays too close to the Capitol, it causes a traffic jam but rarely
makes new news other than "Traffic and weather every ten minutes."

[kontiki]

Dylan Smith wrote:

>
> I think you are exaggerating by at least three orders of magnitude.
>

Possibly... but who really knows since no one is counting or even attempting
to keep track of who is here illegally. And you were just talking about the
southern border, what about the other one(s)?

I guess people think it is more important/better/cheaper to have armies, navies
and Air Forces stationed all over the world, some guarding borders (Korea)
and some fighting wars (Iraq) than attempting to secure our own country.

[Ron Natalie]

Dylan Smith wrote:

> You'd have to get it within 0.5km if *airburst* to be effective - if
> exploded on the ground, its destructive range would be very short (maybe
> a city block) - you'd have to drive right up to the gates of the White
> House.
>
You can park within about three blocks of thw White House and as long
as you look inconspicuous enough (like a brown delivery uniform guy
pushing a hand truck), you could walk easily to within a block.

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, x-ray wrote:
> Christopher Campbell > wrote:
>>The W-48 155mm nuclear artillery round is 34" long and weighs about 110 lbs.
>>It could fit diagonally in a large suitcase,
>
> errrr no it woudldn't. Typical size of a suitcase (and the one claimed by
> Lebed) is 24x16x8". And it would take two-three people to carry such
> suitcase (depending on the required distance). And that's an every day sight
> on the street or airport, right? Three people carying ONE briefcase - it
> really doesn't look suspicus at all! By omitting the shielding, your device
> will trigger the most cheapest toy radiation sensor (not to mention the
> sophisticated ones that would detect you long before you even get into
> plane).

But that's not to say that very small nuclear weapons have not been made
(and tested) without killing the operators - they have, and by the
United States no less. The Davy Crockett was tested in the early 1960s.
The M388 projectile weighed 76lbs (the warhead being 51lbs of this), The
projectile was 31 inches long and 11 inches wide at its widest point.
2100 Davy Crocketts were deployed between 1961 and 1971.

I'm not exactly the world's strongest guy but even I could manhandle the
76lb Davy Crockett projectile. Since the weapons deployed to soldiers in
the field didn't kill the soldiers, we can assume that they had adequate
shielding.

The Davy Crockett round was tested in the Little Feller II test in 1962.
The warhead tested was 11 inches wide and 15 inches long, and weighed in
at 50lbs. Both a warhead suspended by cables a couple of feet off the
ground, and an actual firing of the whole Davy Crockett weapons system
was performed. The yields of the explosions were in the 20t range. (20
tonnes, not kilotonnes, tonnes). Even so that's a big bang for a small
bomb. It was the last atmospheric test at the Nevada test site.

The smallest diameter nuclear device tested by the US was 5 inches in
diameter. It exploded with a yield of 190t (it was actually a fizzle).
It weighed 96lbs. That's about the weight of my "portable" Roland A-90
keyboard (which has a travel case with wheels on the bottom. I took it
to the P'ville fly in in the back of a Bonanza about 3 years ago). That
particular round would also fit in my keyboard case. Whilst hardly a
suitcase, not many people are suspicious of musicians moving their kit
and the wheeled case would make it pretty easy to move on foot.

Some more information on the Davy Crockett (and some discussion on
'suitcase nukes') can be found at the Nuclear Weapons Archive:

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/News/DoSuitcaseNukesExist.html

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, kontiki wrote:
> Possibly... but who really knows since no one is counting or even attempting
> to keep track of who is here illegally. And you were just talking about the
> southern border, what about the other one(s)?

Canada would empty out even quicker having a population of around ~30M.
I think the Canadians might have also noticed the torrent of illegals
entering their country first.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[kontiki]

Jay Beckman wrote:

> We ain't the Soviet Union ... not by a damn sight.
>

You young guys don't have the perspective to appreciate just
how different this country is today compared to 40 years ago.

[Jim]

The errant pilots were enroute to an airshow in NC. At least they
didn't miss the excellent demonstration of the Blackhawk and F16s!

[Thomas Borchert]

Martin,

> it shows how damn stupid we human beeings really are.
>

It's still not funny for me.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Cecil Chapman]

> Threats don't do any good unless one believes they will be carried out.
> Shooting down one Cessna would wake up a lot of pilots.

Perhaps, but it would likely wake-up the poor unfortunate people below as
shards of the wreckage sliced through their homes and spawned fires.
Frankly, I'm glad that we don't have 'Barney Fife' on the fire button of
those fighters - cooler heads will always prevail. Bad enough our
leadership got us bogged down in that 'new Vietnam' in the Middle East.

>Would also give
> the public a "sense of security," however false it may be.

So they would feel more secure knowing that airplane parts and flaming
aviation fuel & oil will be raining upon their heads after the little Cessna
is shot down... and then you find out it was totally harmless intrusion and
you've just killed people on the ground and destroyed property? I think you
better re-read your post. ;o)

I would rather see a harsh administrative penalty, maybe in the form of a
temporary suspension of the CFI's credentials while he gets retested by an
examiner on navigation in the Washington ADIZ.

I was surprised to learn that the flight was manned by a CFI along with his
student (they were going to an airshow). I should think that the CFI should
at least be required to demonstrate their navigation skills in a partial
checkride. I mean,,, geez!?



--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL-IA
Student - CP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[kontiki]

Dylan Smith wrote:

> I think the Canadians might have also noticed the torrent of illegals
> entering their country first.
>


In fact they have noticed this and are tightening up their ship.

[Dave Stadt]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Martin,
>
> > it shows how damn stupid we human beeings really are.
> >
>
> It's still not funny for me.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>

What I want to know is where were all those ninnies running to. Do they
just go out into the streets and run around in circles bumping into each
other?

[John T]

Ron Natalie wrote:
>
> The WASHINGTON Sectional and Terminal Area charts for over
> a year now depict both the ADIZ and the FRX. The FRZ as well
> as the expanded prohibited area over Camp David are displayed
> on a white background. This is a depiction used nowhere else
> in US charting.

They show the ADIZ and FRZ, but not a "no-fly zone". A "no-fly zone" is
what we imposed on Iraq. Prohibited airspace, like P-40, could be
considered a "no-fly zone", but neither the ADIZ nor FRZ are such entities.

Allowing media outlets to perpetuate the myth of a "no-fly zone" gives the
non-flying public the impression that no planes are allowed in the area.
This is like the common impression of "stall". *We* don't need to fuel that
misperception by calling the ADIZ/FRZ a "no-fly zone" as earlier posters
have done here.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[W P Dixon]

Hi Martin,
Yep a US carrier has protected airspace. At least that was the case back
then, I would imagine it still is the same. Any Navy fellows care to explain
it further?

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
>
> how is this possible? you were in the Mediterrean sea. do you have
> airspace
> there?
>
> #m
> --
> http://www.hotze.priv.at/album/aviation/caution.jpg

[Corky Scott]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 02:36:48 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>Be that as it may, the good people of London chose to continue
>business as usual in the face of nightly air raids of hundreds of
>bombers, unlike those in DC who abandoned their posts in panic at the
>approach of a Cessna 152.

Not really Larry. The truth is wartime travel for most Londoners, as
well as residents of other cities, was very difficult if not nearly
impossible due to wartime restrictions to travel. Londoners "took it"
because there was little else they could do.

Photo's of families that moved into the woods outside the cities to
camp in places they felt were safer than living in the subway tunnels
were suppressed by the government, for obvious reasons: It could have
been a propaganda coup for the Nazi's to indicate that the English
were cracking under the pressure.

The parts of London that were most heavily bombed during the blitz
were in the "east end" which happened to be where most of the city's
poor lived. They would happilly have gone elsewhere rather than be
subjected to nightly bombing, but could not due to their lack of
funds.

Corky Scott

[kontiki]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> Do they just go out into the streets and run around in circles bumping into each
> other?

That's pretty much what they do when they are inside of the buildings.

[DCMacLean]

In article >,
says...
> > Granted, the current rules are nonsense but that doesn't give these two
> > nitwits the go ahead to fly into the restricted area. That's not how you
> > fix stupid rules. That's how you get more stupid rules.
>
> Just idly thinking here after two glasses of wine, but what if =all= the
> spam cans in the country formed a line and flew directly over the white
> house at 2000 feet with no transponder code and no clearance, and kept
> doing it even as we were being shot down? What do you think the
> eventual effect of this would be?
>
> Jose
>
How many glasses of wine?

[abripl]

I still don't see real logic in getting excited about a small plane
that cannot carry much but not about all sorts of cars & trucks that
can get into the area and are the prefered vehicles of terrorists.

[Gene Seibel]

Nearly a million pilots in this country don't deserve to be portrayed
as potential terrorists night after night in the media either, but it
happens and I don't see any end in sight. OF COURSE, I don't actually
want to see a Cessna shot down. I'm just frustrated by the situation.
As I said in my post, I expressed a wild thought. I immediately knew I
shouldn't have.

How do we get the media, and subsequently the American people to
understand that these small airplanes are flown by our American friends
and neighbors? I give up. The only way I could see the media EVER
showing that picture is if they had to do a story on the American
family shot out of the sky. The picture they like is the pilot on the
ground surrounded by agents.

But I'd better shut up. I'm going to be very misunderstood again.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Franklin Newton]

I think you've got it exactly right, the younger folks don't realize how
much the country has changed in the last 40 years and I'm sad to say not for
the better. 40 years ago, you, as an american, could walk safely anywhere in
the world because, as an american, you were respected. That is not the case
today.

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Beckman wrote:
>
> > We ain't the Soviet Union ... not by a damn sight.
> >
>
> You young guys don't have the perspective to appreciate just
> how different this country is today compared to 40 years ago.
>

[Jose]

> Ha! You guys voted for these monsters, now you're whining...I love it!

I don't think the ones whining are the same ones that voted them in.
You have voting records showing otherwise?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Ray Bengen]

All I know is when I flew my Single-Engine Comanche to Europe in 2003, I
wasn't allowed to fly inside the London TMA 'cos I only had one engine.
Helo's fly over the river and have special clearances with their VFR
routes. It's the 'glide-clear' rule. Also had this :--

"You can fly over London in a Single providing you get clearance to
enter the TMA and are over 1500 feet above the tallest sructure within
1 Nm and you are high enough to land clear of any built-up area if your
engine quits."

Since 9/11, also doubtful but possible I suppose.

Not the Hudson VFR Corridor...

Ray

On Thu, 12 May 2005 08:07:07 +0000, Arketip > wrote:

> Ray Bengen wrote:
>
>> Small SINGLE-ENGINE planes are banned not MULTI's.
>> Still, it is quite ridicilous. I wonder how many people would be
>> suprised to know a fully-loaded Cessna 150 would bounce of the side of
>> the Washington Memorial...
>> Forget about the Statue of Liberty.
>> Anyhow, I think it'll be forgotten.
>> IMO.
>> On Thu, 12 May 2005 01:57:14 GMT, George Patterson
> I don't know if it is a new regulation, but about 10 years ago I
> overflew the city at 2400 ft, twice in one weekend, as asked by ATC, and
> met plenty of ULM on the way.



--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

[Ron Natalie]

John T wrote:
> Ron Natalie wrote:
>
>>The WASHINGTON Sectional and Terminal Area charts for over
>>a year now depict both the ADIZ and the FRX. The FRZ as well
>>as the expanded prohibited area over Camp David are displayed
>>on a white background. This is a depiction used nowhere else
>>in US charting.
>
>
> They show the ADIZ and FRZ, but not a "no-fly zone". A "no-fly zone" is
> what we imposed on Iraq. Prohibited airspace, like P-40, could be
> considered a "no-fly zone", but neither the ADIZ nor FRZ are such entities.
>
Except for the few of us who have jumped through the hoops to get
cleared for FRZ operations, the FRZ is a "no-fly zone". Even the
IRAQ no fly zone is only prohibited to UNAUTHORIZED (i.e. Iraqi)
airplanes.

[Peter Clark]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 07:46:04 -0400, Ron Natalie >
wrote:

>The WASHINGTON Sectional and Terminal Area charts for over
>a year now depict both the ADIZ and the FRX. The FRZ as well
>as the expanded prohibited area over Camp David are displayed
>on a white background. This is a depiction used nowhere else
>in US charting.

The New York sectional uses the same white background circle to show
what area would be in the 30NM expanded TFR around ENE when activated.

[Montblack]

("Martin Hotze" wrote)
>> We ain't the Soviet Union ... not by a damn sight.

> you're getting closer day by day.
>
> next thing is RFID in your drivers license (to stop terrorists from
> entering the country *haha*), but you have nothing to hide, so you can
> have
> those tags in your drivers license ... no problem. And Guantanamo Bay is
> not within the US, and what your alphabet soup does to inmates in Syria
> (they bring them there) is also outside the US ... sorry, I forgot, you
> are
> wearing the white hat.


Marty Marty Marty

The explanation that Guantanamo Bay is not on US soil, so does not need to
conform "specifically" to US laws and regulations, was fine by me.

So, whose soil is it on? Hmm ... must be Cuba. Again, fine by me.

So, what are Cuba's laws and regulations regarding detainees?

....just following the logic where it leads me.


Montblack
Loathing foreign terrorists
Fearing American Gulags

[Montblack]

("Dylan Smith" wrote)
> You'd have to get it within 0.5km if *airburst* to be effective - if
> exploded on the ground, its destructive range would be very short (maybe
> a city block) - you'd have to drive right up to the gates of the White
> House.
>
> Of course if they had the Davy Crockett launcher too, they would only
> have to get within 3 miles or so.


Hello - a bunch of helium balloons and a lawn chair - for the "device" - not
to sit in. Plus a few $2.99 'wind direction' mylar balloons.

I say we march right over to rec.aviation.ballooning with our torches and
pitchforks!!


Montblack

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 08:39:21 +0200, Martin Hotze
> wrote in >::

>... millions of illegal crossing the borders every week ... millions?

The figures I heard were about 4,000 illegal infiltrators a night, and
an estimate of 1-million a year crossing the southern border.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 07:44:17 -0400, Ron Natalie >
wrote in >::

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 May 2005 21:11:04 -0400, "W P Dixon"
>> > wrote in
>> >::
>>
>>
>>>I am a student pilot and I have enough sense to not fly to the White House.
>>>Doesn't VFR mean being able to see the ground?
>>
>>
>> Not in the US.
>
>It does for student pilots (soloing).

Right. This whole tangential message thread belongs in
rec.aviation.student.

[John T]

Ron Natalie wrote:
>
> Except for the few of us who have jumped through the hoops to get
> cleared for FRZ operations, the FRZ is a "no-fly zone". Even the
> IRAQ no fly zone is only prohibited to UNAUTHORIZED (i.e. Iraqi)
> airplanes.

You just defined "restricted" airspace, not a "no-fly zone".

I'm fine with media outlets and others defining this as restricted (feel
free to add descriptors like "heavily", "highly", "tightly controlled",
etc.) airspace. This is *not* a "no-fly zone".

Semantics? Maybe. But do this: Find a non-flying, non-aviation buff
friend of yours and ask them what comes to mind when you say "no-fly zone".
Do the same for "restricted airspace".

My experience has been that "no-fly zone" implies *no* planes except perhaps
military enforcers. Restricted means "permission required" - an accurate
description of the FRZ and to a lesser extent the ADIZ.

My point here is we pilots have enough difficulties with the ignorant
public. We shouldn't be perpetuating inaccurate descriptions of the
airspace around here - and "no-fly zone" is not accurate.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Jay Honeck]

> How do we get the media, and subsequently the American people to
> understand that these small airplanes are flown by our American friends
> and neighbors? I give up. The only way I could see the media EVER
> showing that picture is if they had to do a story on the American
> family shot out of the sky. The picture they like is the pilot on the
> ground surrounded by agents.
>
> But I'd better shut up. I'm going to be very misunderstood again.

No you won't, Gene. Those who "misunderstand" your thoughts do so
purposefully.

You have hit the nail right on the head, sad to say. The ONLY way this crap
is going to stop is when a family like mine gets blown out of the sky by a
Blackhawk's mini-gun, live on CNN.

Only when little bits of Piper are raining down on D.C. -- and the
subsequent exposes and docu-dramas are made for the USA network -- will the
following happen:

a) The stupid TFRs will be relaxed, and
b) Stupid pilots will FINALLY get the message.

Until then, we can only hold our breath and wait for the other shoe to drop.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Haven't you ever made a mistake?
>
> Why would you, and the others on this board, immediately jump on the
> governments bandwagon?

Wow -- you don't get it, do you? This has been happening -- regularly --
for over THREE YEARS.

Every time it happens, the public -- and the government -- looks at us more
suspiciously. Every time this happens I field questions from non-pilots,
asking how this can happen.

Frankly, I'm running out of explanations.

How many more times do you think it can be allowed to happen before the
FAA/TSA/CIA/Whomever says "Enough is enough" -- and terminates our flight
privileges anywhere near D.C.?

I'm planning a flight to D.C. in June, and I'm planning it with more care
and precision than NASA gave the Apollo moon landings. Anyone from outside
the D.C. area who doesn't is a MORON.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Weren't you one of those who in a previous thread suggested that we
> _relax_ the requirements for getting GA certificates? ;-)
>
> Perhaps this pilot was just one of those on the low end of the current
> bell curve.

What this CFI did wrong has NOTHING to do with flying, and everything to do
with attitude and intelligence.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> The ADIZ already encompasses an area with a population bigger than your
> entire state.

Wow. Why would y'all cram yourselves into such a tiny area?

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > It is indeed unfortunate that the general, non-aviation public only
>> receives its information from the likes of CNN, MSNBC, etc., etc. When
>> was the last time any of you saw any mention of the hundreds or even
>> thousands of pilots small, private airplanes in a responsible and safe
>> manner.
>
> Tonight, on CNN.

Really? CNN did a positive piece on *anything*?

Or are you fibbing?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[RNR]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 00:12:48 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>> Granted, the current rules are nonsense but that doesn't give these two
>> nitwits the go ahead to fly into the restricted area. That's not how you
>> fix stupid rules. That's how you get more stupid rules.
>
>Just idly thinking here after two glasses of wine, but what if =all= the
>spam cans in the country formed a line and flew directly over the white
>house at 2000 feet with no transponder code and no clearance, and kept
>doing it even as we were being shot down? What do you think the
>eventual effect of this would be?
>
>Jose

A pilot shortage.
Rich Russell

[Dylan Smith]

In article <gPKge.75930$c24.17701@attbi_s72>, Jay Honeck wrote:
> You have hit the nail right on the head, sad to say. The ONLY way this crap
> is going to stop is when a family like mine gets blown out of the sky by a
> Blackhawk's mini-gun, live on CNN.

It'll stop because there will now be extra prohibited and restricted
airspace, to ensure when the next light aircraft gets shot down, it
doesn't rain parts on a populated area.

The TFRs would be strengthened if that happened, I have no doubt.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Jay Honeck]

>> Those days are gone... Thank a F'ing lot! Bin Ladin!
>
> this was not Bin Laden who brought all those restrictions ... it was ...
> well, your own govt. .. but: *ssssshhhhhh!!*

Actually, it was half a dozen assh*les who decided to kill thousands of
innocents by using airplanes as missiles.

I sure wish they had chosen to use rental trucks again. Or boats.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 15:50:00 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in <IWKge.75968$WI3.4920@attbi_s71>::

>What this CFI did wrong has NOTHING to do with flying, a ...

There was no CFI involved in this incident.

[Jay Honeck]

> This administration's justification to invade Iran. Or Cananda.

Who wants Canada?

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> Just idly thinking here after two glasses of wine, but what if =all= the
>> spam cans in the country formed a line and flew directly over the white
>> house at 2000 feet with no transponder code and no clearance, and kept
>> doing it even as we were being shot down? What do you think the
>> eventual effect of this would be?
>>
> How many glasses of wine?

Crikey, imagine what kind of great ideas Jose might come with after a
six-pack!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> The figures I heard were about 4,000 illegal infiltrators a night, and
> an estimate of 1-million a year crossing the southern border.

Yeah, I wonder if "Operation Minuteman" (or whatever the heck it's called)
is having any effect?

Or if all the good ole boy volunteers got tired of driving around the
desert, and went home...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gary Drescher]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:vVKge.75939$c24.26673@attbi_s72...
> How many more times do you think it can be allowed to happen before the
> FAA/TSA/CIA/Whomever says "Enough is enough" -- and terminates our flight
> privileges anywhere near D.C.?

I suspect they look at such events as useful fire drills. The incursions let
them test their procedures under real-life, unplanned circumstances that are
nonetheless benign.

--Gary

[[email protected]]

Well guys, I have to caveat that. I grew up in Alabama and although I
wasn't here 40 years ago my parents and grandparents were. And there
were certainly places within this country where they couldn't walk
safely at will. Ask Condi's family how free they were to move around
Birmingham at will. Now that I have that out of the way I agree that
things improved in many ways in this country, but that we're currently
regressing at an alarming rate.

Dave

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 15:55:50 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in
<a0Lge.75948$c24.67936@attbi_s72>::

>>> Those days are gone... Thank a F'ing lot! Bin Ladin!
>>
>> this was not Bin Laden who brought all those restrictions ... it was ...
>> well, your own govt. .. but: *ssssshhhhhh!!*
>
>Actually, it was half a dozen assh*les who decided to kill thousands of
>innocents by using airplanes as missiles.

So those 19 dead terrorists passed the restrictive laws in this
country? Doubtful.

It was your elected government representatives who panicked, and used
public mass hysteria to enact a lot of stupid restrictions on the
American people in the name of strengthening security at the expense
of untold billions of dollars flowing into the pockets of law
enforcement agencies throughout the land. We've been had by our own
government politicians, in a far worse way than the terrorists could
have accomplished with a thousand fuel laden airliners.


--

All professional philosophers tend to assume that common sense
means the mental habit of the common man. Nothing could be further
from the mark. The common man is chiefly to be distinguished by
his plentiful _lack_ of common sense: he believes things on
evidence that is too scanty, or that distorts the plain facts, or
that is full of non sequiturs. Common sense really involves making
full use of _all_ the demonstrable evidence--and of nothing _but_
the demonstrable evidence. -- Henry Louis Mencken

[Jay Honeck]

> I think you've got it exactly right, the younger folks don't realize how
> much the country has changed in the last 40 years and I'm sad to say not
> for
> the better. 40 years ago, you, as an american, could walk safely anywhere
> in
> the world because, as an american, you were respected. That is not the
> case
> today.

Oh, wait -- you think? Hey, that must be that "worldwide war on terrorism"
they've been talking about on CNN every night!

How soon everyone forgets...THEY attacked US, not the other way around.
Sheesh, wake up, guys. The U.S. hasn't changed -- but the world cultures
around it sure have.

Oh, and BTW: I *was* there 40 years ago, and the U.S. was in a world of
****. We were entrenched in Viet Nam, at the height of the Cold War, and
were entangled in a zillion other little conflicts all over the world, in
our fight against Communism. Our own people were rioting in the streets,
cities were burning -- and this was "better than today"?

NOT.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> If you're referring to criminal guilt ("judge or jury"), do you have a
> statute in mind? The FBI has already concluded that since the incursion
> was unintentional, no criminal charges will be filed.

I surely hope the FAA takes a firmer stance.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 16:06:02 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in
<K9Lge.76006$WI3.51424@attbi_s71>::

>Yeah, I wonder if "Operation Minuteman" (or whatever the heck it's called)
>is having any effect?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7725470/
Minutemen end border watch, plan to expand
Gov. Schwarzenegger praises group heading to CaliforniaBy Brock N.
Meeks
Chief Washington correspondent
MSNBC
Updated: 11:32 a.m. ET May 4, 2005WASHINGTON - The month-long
volunteer effort by a grassroots citizen group monitoring illegal
immigration along a desolate 23-mile stretch of the Arizona-Mexico
border ended much as it started: in a war of words.

The so-called Minuteman Project says its nearly 900 volunteers,
some of them armed, were so successful that during April the
border area they monitored witnessed “a 98 percent reduction in
border crossings.” But the number is difficult to independently
verify.

The Minuteman Project also claims it was directly responsible for
the apprehension by U.S. Border Patrol agents of 349 people trying
to illegally enter the United States during the month, according
to Grey Deacon, a spokesman for the project.

During their watch on the border, if Minuteman volunteers ...

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:K9Lge.76006$WI3.51424@attbi_s71...
>> The figures I heard were about 4,000 illegal infiltrators a night, and
>> an estimate of 1-million a year crossing the southern border.
>
> Yeah, I wonder if "Operation Minuteman" (or whatever the heck it's called)
> is having any effect?
>
> Or if all the good ole boy volunteers got tired of driving around the
> desert, and went home...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>
Yea they packed it up the other day.

[gatt]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message news:vZyge.1550

> > Just idly thinking here after two glasses of wine, but what if =all= the
> > spam cans in the country formed a line and flew directly over the white
> > house at 2000 feet with no transponder code and no clearance, and kept
> > doing it even as we were being shot down? What do you think the
> > eventual effect of this would be?

They'd make a movie and call in Convoy II.

-c

[Sport Pilot]

>The news channels were saying that it would take the plane 90 seconds
to
>reach the Capital or White House from the 3 mile radius....bet that 3
mile
>becomes 10 miles soon. We can thank this latest idiot as well as the
>Governor of Kentucky's pilots! ;)


The restricted airspace is one hell of a lot more than 3 miles. It
must be about 10 or 15 miles.

[Jay Honeck]

> So those 19 dead terrorists passed the restrictive laws in this
> country? Doubtful.
>
> It was your elected government representatives who panicked, and used
> public mass hysteria to enact a lot of stupid restrictions on the
> American people in the name of strengthening security at the expense
> of untold billions of dollars flowing into the pockets of law
> enforcement agencies throughout the land.

Cause -- and effect -- in a democratic country.

No sense in railing against it. If you want to change it, get out the vote.

> We've been had by our own
> government politicians, in a far worse way than the terrorists could
> have accomplished with a thousand fuel laden airliners.

While there is a grain of truth within your hyperbole, the fact remains that
we are a democracy, and the majority of our elected representatives in
Congress voted for the new restrictions. Characterizing this as "being had
by our own politicians" is the same as saying "democracy sucks!"

If you don't like it, get people to vote against it In the meantime, quit
blaming the people for the actions of the terrorists.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Christopher Campbell]

On 5/12/05 2:04 AM, in article , "x-ray"
> wrote:

> Christopher Campbell > wrote:
>> The W-48 155mm nuclear artillery round is 34" long and weighs about 110 lbs.
>> It could fit diagonally in a large suitcase,
>
> errrr no it woudldn't. Typical size of a suitcase (and the one claimed by
> Lebed) is 24x16x8". And it would take two-three people to carry such
> suitcase (depending on the required distance). And that's an every day sight
> on the street or airport, right? Three people carying ONE briefcase - it
> really doesn't look suspicus at all! By omitting the shielding, your device
> will trigger the most cheapest toy radiation sensor (not to mention the
> sophisticated ones that would detect you long before you even get into
> plane).
>

I made that same point myself in another part of the thread. Even if you
managed to get the weight of the briefcase down to 60 lbs, you would look
pretty funny trying to carry it. Imagine trying to carry something like the
SADM, though. :)

The UCRL Swift device was only 5" in diameter and 24.5" long. It would have
fit easily into Lebed's suitcase. Of course, the whole package would have
weighed about 100 lbs, but a suitcase full of books can weigh that much (I
know, AllATP's texts fit into a suitcase and weigh 120 lbs.)

If Lebed's bombs actually exist, they would probably use technology similar
to the Swift -- a linear implosion design using a football shaped
subcritical mass.

>
>> The Soviets claimed to have built prototype suitcase weapons 20cm thick. A
>
> Do you have some relevant document/reference that proves this? It's getting
> pretty annoying with stroies of "suitcase nukes", "aliens in area 51" and
> "We were not on the Moon" conspiracies. (No hard feelings)

Lebed claimed in 1997 that the Soviets had actually manufactured such a
device. Of course, no one has ever seen it and you have to wonder what they
would have ever used it for.

Nevertheless, I think the W-54 does show that bombs of amazingly small size
are possible, even if they are still very heavy. I agree that it is
extremely unlikely that any terrorist organization would have the capability
to manufacture such a device. Stealing or buying one from the Soviets might
be possible, but that assumes a) Lebed was telling the truth and b) no one
has noticed that such a device is missing. Besides, supposing a group such
as Chechen rebels or the Russian mafia managed to obtain the thing -- would
they really be eager to turn it over to bin Laden's boys? More likely they
would use it to blackmail Russia.

[Christopher Campbell]

On 5/12/05 2:46 AM, in article ,
"Dylan Smith" > wrote:

> In article >, Christopher
> Campbell wrote:
>> never been interested in such a weapon. The smallest weapon ever tested by
>> the US was the UCRL Swift device in 1956.
>
> I think the Davy Crockett round they tested in the early 60s was
> actually smaller than that, I think it had a yield of around 20t (but I
> could be wrong).

The W-54 Davy Crockett was bigger, but not by much. The Swift had a higher
yield of 190 tons, though. The Swift was never actually deployed. The W-54
is the smallest bomb ever deployed by the US.

[W P Dixon]

120 LBS!,
Heck my wife's purse weighs that much!!!!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

[Chris Colohan]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> How soon everyone forgets...THEY attacked US, not the other way around.
> Sheesh, wake up, guys. The U.S. hasn't changed -- but the world cultures
> around it sure have.

Two questions:

1. Who are THEY and US? As a Canadian who is currently living in the
United States, I wonder what side of this line I fall upon.

2. What does this have to do with aviation?

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

[Jay Honeck]

>> How soon everyone forgets...THEY attacked US, not the other way around.
>> Sheesh, wake up, guys. The U.S. hasn't changed -- but the world cultures
>> around it sure have.
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1. Who are THEY and US? As a Canadian who is currently living in the
> United States, I wonder what side of this line I fall upon.
>
> 2. What does this have to do with aviation?

Well, Chris, pretty much everything in this thread comes back to this one,
salient point.

Or do you think the ADIZ around D.C. is unrelated to 9/11?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[JohnH]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> This administration's justification to invade Iran. Or Cananda.
>
> Who wants Canada?
>

Your boy Bush as soon as he can figger out how to get all that oil out of
our.. I mean *their*... sand ;^)

[JohnH]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> Just idly thinking here after two glasses of wine, but what if
>>> =all= the spam cans in the country formed a line and flew directly
>>> over the white house at 2000 feet with no transponder code and no
>>> clearance, and kept doing it even as we were being shot down? What
>>> do you think the eventual effect of this would be?
>>>
>> How many glasses of wine?
>
> Crikey, imagine what kind of great ideas Jose might come with after a
> six-pack!
>
> ;-)

The same, but it would involve a group hug afterwards with a proclamation of
love.

[x-ray]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> I'm not exactly the world's strongest guy but even I could manhandle the
> 76lb Davy Crockett projectile.

Me too, but for a limited period of time, with each step walking slower and
slower. :o)

> the field didn't kill the soldiers, we can assume that they had adequate
> shielding.

Of course they had. Point is that i can't find topics for shielding and
cooling in Lebed's suitace articles. That's why i have so much pessimism.
And remember, pessimist is -> an optimist with experience ;)

> It weighed 96lbs. That's about the weight of my "portable" Roland A-90

Arghhh! I hate hammer action. If you will ever need something lighter, i
recomend JV-90.

> http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/News/DoSuitcaseNukesExist.html

That is a very good link. I've been visiting this site quite often after,
specially after i bought GM-45 radiation detector (computer controlled) few
months ago.

> Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

Well. Greetings from Diso system, from an ex. smuggler and a sicko who uses
mining grade lasers to attack other ships. My ASP Explorer is parked for the
past 3-4 years. From time to time i think about turning on that old thrusty
engine. Wish i could find some free time. I had first flight in 1993 (Ross
154 system).

[george]

Dylan Smith wrote:
> In article <_Jyge.1534$R13.625@trndny09>, George Patterson wrote:
> > gatt wrote:
> >>
> >> It's really ridiculous. London endured the Blitz. America has got
to stop
> >> living in fear.
> >
> > Not a good example. Small planes have been banned from the airspace
over London
> > for decades.
>
> No they haven't, they aren't even prohibited now. You see light
planes
> at London City which is right in the middle of Canary Wharf.
>

Dammit.
Now the posters will know that there's an airport bang in the middle of
the London Docks ROTFL...

[Jose]

>>this was not Bin Laden who brought all those restrictions ... it was ...
>> well, your own govt. .. but: *ssssshhhhhh!!*
>
> Actually, it was half a dozen assh*les who decided to kill thousands of
> innocents by using airplanes as missiles.

Neither Bin Laden nor his agents altered the rules about flying or
security. This we did ourselves, with glee. It's an auto-immune
disease our country has.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose]

> [{Bin Laden | our government} caused the restrictions...]
> Cause -- and effect -- in a democratic country.
>
> If you don't like it, get people to vote against it In the meantime, quit
> blaming the people for the actions of the terrorists.

Nobody's blaming "the people" for bringing down the towers. I am
blaming "the people" for bringing down the constitution.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

>>>this was not Bin Laden who brought all those restrictions ... it was ...
>>> well, your own govt. .. but: *ssssshhhhhh!!*
>>
>> Actually, it was half a dozen assh*les who decided to kill thousands of
>> innocents by using airplanes as missiles.
>
> Neither Bin Laden nor his agents altered the rules about flying or
> security. This we did ourselves, with glee. It's an auto-immune disease
> our country has.

A myopic view of America, and of security in general, not unlike the way
physicians viewed disease before the advent of microbiology.

"It must be the patient's fault..."
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[JohnH]

Jim wrote:
> The errant pilots were enroute to an airshow in NC. At least they
> didn't miss the excellent demonstration of the Blackhawk and F16s!

Good one, Jim!

[Franklin Newton]

Yes, that's fine terroist logic, but as a nation of laws and law abiding
citizens, but do the pertinant international laws state?
"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Martin Hotze wrote:
> > "W P Dixon" > wrote:
> >
> >> When onboard the USS Iwo Jima we almost had to shoot down a small GA
> >> plane in the Med. He invaded our airspace
> >
> > how is this possible? you were in the Mediterrean sea. do you have
airspace
> > there?
>
> When you have all those guns, you have airspace. Remember the Iranian
> airliner that got shot down? (Just so we're being fair and even handed,
> remember the B747 the Soviets shot down too when that went off-course).
>
> --
> Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
> Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
> Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
> "Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Ron Natalie]

Dylan Smith wrote:

>
> It'll stop because there will now be extra prohibited and restricted
> airspace, to ensure when the next light aircraft gets shot down, it
> doesn't rain parts on a populated area.

The nearest non-populated area is in another state I'm afraid.

>
> The TFRs would be strengthened if that happened, I have no doubt.
>

They ain't temporary.

[Blueskies]

"iflyatiger" > wrote in message ...
> P.S.
> Yes the pilot is an idiot !!
>

No, the rules are idiotic!

[Blueskies]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message ...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:vVKge.75939$c24.26673@attbi_s72...
>> How many more times do you think it can be allowed to happen before the FAA/TSA/CIA/Whomever says "Enough is
>> enough" -- and terminates our flight privileges anywhere near D.C.?
>
> I suspect they look at such events as useful fire drills. The incursions let them test their procedures under
> real-life, unplanned circumstances that are nonetheless benign.
>
> --Gary
>

That is what they are saying, patting themselves on the back as the 'evacuations' took place in a timely manner. Hmmm,
put folks out on the streets while a light plane that could be carrying a spray agent is flying overhead. Hmmm, don't
worry about falling debris from the shot down aircraft...

[Blueskies]

"Gene Seibel" > wrote in message oups.com...
>I don't want anyone to take this wrong, it's just a thought that
> floated through my head.
>
> Threats don't do any good unless one believes they will be carried out.
> Shooting down one Cessna would wake up a lot of pilots. Would also give
> the public a "sense of secutiry," however false it may be. Otherwise we
> go on with complacent pilots and panic in the streets every time a
> small plane flies over.
> --
> Gene Seibel
> Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
> Because I fly, I envy no one.
>

They probably should have shot down the Governor of Kentucky when his plane raised the ruckus...

[Blueskies]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:woPge.76333$WI3.20472@attbi_s71...
>>>>this was not Bin Laden who brought all those restrictions ... it was ...
>>>> well, your own govt. .. but: *ssssshhhhhh!!*
>>>
>>> Actually, it was half a dozen assh*les who decided to kill thousands of innocents by using airplanes as missiles.
>>
>> Neither Bin Laden nor his agents altered the rules about flying or security. This we did ourselves, with glee. It's
>> an auto-immune disease our country has.
>
> A myopic view of America, and of security in general, not unlike the way physicians viewed disease before the advent
> of microbiology.
>
> "It must be the patient's fault..."
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Yes, Jay, we are all guilty until proven innocent....

[Dave Stadt]

"Franklin Newton" > wrote in message
et...
>
> I think you've got it exactly right, the younger folks don't realize how
> much the country has changed in the last 40 years and I'm sad to say not
for
> the better. 40 years ago, you, as an american, could walk safely anywhere
in
> the world because, as an american, you were respected. That is not the
case
> today.

What country are you from? What you describe is certainly NOT the U.S.of A.
40 years ago.

[Dave Stadt]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
> >>this was not Bin Laden who brought all those restrictions ... it was ...
> >> well, your own govt. .. but: *ssssshhhhhh!!*
> >
> > Actually, it was half a dozen assh*les who decided to kill thousands of
> > innocents by using airplanes as missiles.
>
> Neither Bin Laden nor his agents altered the rules about flying or
> security. This we did ourselves, with glee. It's an auto-immune
> disease our country has.

One thing you can always count on during a national crisis, the U.S.
governments first response will ALWAYS be to punish its innocent citizens.


>
> Jose
> --
> Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> Neither Bin Laden nor his agents altered the rules about flying or
>> security. This we did ourselves, with glee. It's an auto-immune disease
>> our country has.
>
> A myopic view of America, and of security in general, not unlike the way
> physicians viewed disease before the advent of microbiology.

Jose's completely correct. The price of living in a free society is
accepting a certain amount of danger. We should not be so willing to
allow the government to curtail our freedoms. We should have made
corrections to our security that sealed obvious holes, and then went on
with our lives. Instead, innocent segments of our society are being
"terrorized" by our government because they are "perceived" as being a
threat.


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Icebound]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
> "W P Dixon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Interesting! I wonder how that works? Hard to have a visual if you can
>> not see? Not trying to be a smart ass or anything just trying to get the
>> whole picture.
>
> For purposes of visual versus instrument flight rules, the required
> visibility conditions are specified for purposes of separation, not
> navigation or aviation. That is, as long as you can see well enough to
> keep from colliding with other aircraft, there's no requirement to be able
> to tell where you are without use of instruments, or even to be able to
> keep the plane upright without use of instruments.
>


For those of you who fly VFR to Canada, I do not believe that interpretation
would stand up. Canadian rules specifically mention:


602.114 [and 602.115]

No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within controlled [and
uncontrolled] airspace unless

(a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;

[Blueskies]

"Icebound" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message ...
>> "W P Dixon" > wrote in message ...
>>> Interesting! I wonder how that works? Hard to have a visual if you can not see? Not trying to be a smart ass or
>>> anything just trying to get the whole picture.
>>
>> For purposes of visual versus instrument flight rules, the required visibility conditions are specified for purposes
>> of separation, not navigation or aviation. That is, as long as you can see well enough to keep from colliding with
>> other aircraft, there's no requirement to be able to tell where you are without use of instruments, or even to be
>> able to keep the plane upright without use of instruments.
>>
>
>
> For those of you who fly VFR to Canada, I do not believe that interpretation would stand up. Canadian rules
> specifically mention:
>
>
> 602.114 [and 602.115]
>
> No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within controlled [and uncontrolled] airspace unless
>
> (a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;
>
>

USA can fly VFR as long as the visibility and cloud clearance rules are followed. We can fly over the top of the clouds
with no surface visible...

[John Lakesford]

Are you really that good? You could never make that kind of mistake?

I wanna be like you.

On Thu, 12 May 2005 15:42:04 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> How do we get the media, and subsequently the American people to
>> understand that these small airplanes are flown by our American friends
>> and neighbors? I give up. The only way I could see the media EVER
>> showing that picture is if they had to do a story on the American
>> family shot out of the sky. The picture they like is the pilot on the
>> ground surrounded by agents.
>>
>> But I'd better shut up. I'm going to be very misunderstood again.
>
>No you won't, Gene. Those who "misunderstand" your thoughts do so
>purposefully.
>
>You have hit the nail right on the head, sad to say. The ONLY way this crap
>is going to stop is when a family like mine gets blown out of the sky by a
>Blackhawk's mini-gun, live on CNN.
>
>Only when little bits of Piper are raining down on D.C. -- and the
>subsequent exposes and docu-dramas are made for the USA network -- will the
>following happen:
>
>a) The stupid TFRs will be relaxed, and
>b) Stupid pilots will FINALLY get the message.
>
>Until then, we can only hold our breath and wait for the other shoe to drop.

[Icebound]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:_6Lge.75972$c24.66107@attbi_s72...
>> This administration's justification to invade Iran. Or Cananda.
>
> Who wants Canada?
>


North Dakota apparently needs it as a place to dump their dirty water out of
Devil's Lake.

[Icebound]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> Granted, the current rules are nonsense but that doesn't give these two
>> nitwits the go ahead to fly into the restricted area. That's not how you
>> fix stupid rules. That's how you get more stupid rules.
>
> Just idly thinking here after two glasses of wine, but what if =all= the
> spam cans in the country formed a line and flew directly over the white
> house at 2000 feet with no transponder code and no clearance, and kept
> doing it even as we were being shot down? What do you think the eventual
> effect of this would be?
>

I love it: America hasn't had a decent civil disobedience protest for a
while.

The French population tried it on the Bastille in 1789.

The US civil rights movement tried it many times during the 1950's and 60's.

The students of Kent State tried it May 4, 1970. Americans killed 4 of
them.

From the outside looking in, I would expect the result to be similar to Kent
State. A few Americans may die. The population may be outraged and
recognize the futility of their government's policies, or it may nod its
head sagely and say the pilots had it coming. It depends on whether they
value "freedom and democracy", or prefer feudal dependance.

Twenty or thirty years later everyone will wonder what all the fuss was
about, because by then some other equally "important" disaster will have
befallen.... and whether man-made or natural, physical or political or
economic, it will come from a totally unexpected and unplanned-for source.

[Icebound]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:tlLge.76018$WI3.54729@attbi_s71...
>> If you're referring to criminal guilt ("judge or jury"), do you have a
>> statute in mind? The FBI has already concluded that since the incursion
>> was unintentional, no criminal charges will be filed.
>
> I surely hope the FAA takes a firmer stance.
> --


Why?

If the FAA goes lightly, it will go a long way to showing that light
aircraft do indeed pose little problem, and possibly the rest of GA can get
on with its life without this pervasive sense of fear.

[W P Dixon]

From what I can tell that is true, unless you are flying as a sport pilot.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


"Blueskies" > wrote in message
...
>
> USA can fly VFR as long as the visibility and cloud clearance rules are
> followed. We can fly over the top of the clouds with no surface visible...
>

[Icebound]

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Icebound" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "W P Dixon" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Interesting! I wonder how that works? Hard to have a visual if you can
>>>> not see? Not trying to be a smart ass or anything just trying to get
>>>> the whole picture.
>>>
>>> For purposes of visual versus instrument flight rules, the required
>>> visibility conditions are specified for purposes of separation, not
>>> navigation or aviation. That is, as long as you can see well enough to
>>> keep from colliding with other aircraft, there's no requirement to be
>>> able to tell where you are without use of instruments, or even to be
>>> able to keep the plane upright without use of instruments.
>>>
>>
>>
>> For those of you who fly VFR to Canada, I do not believe that
>> interpretation would stand up. Canadian rules specifically mention:
>>
>>
>> 602.114 [and 602.115]
>>
>> No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within controlled [and
>> uncontrolled] airspace unless
>>
>> (a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;
>>
>>
>
> USA can fly VFR as long as the visibility and cloud clearance rules are
> followed. We can fly over the top of the clouds with no surface visible...
>

Canada has Over-the-top rules as well, but the flight-visibility and cloud
clearance rules change from those of "VFR-as-defined". In other words:
VFR-over-the-top is specifically defined in the regulations to be something
slightly different than "VFR".

[Jose]

>>Neither Bin Laden nor his agents altered the rules about flying or
>> security. This we did ourselves, with glee. It's an auto-immune disease
>> our country has.
>
>
> A myopic view of America

Half of America. I'll let you figure out which half.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[JohnH]

>> Well stated sir. All of this because the blowhards is Washington
>> have abrogated their responsibilities and now the peons must pay.
>
> Ha! You guys voted for these monsters, now you're whining...I love it!

It's especially maddening for those of us who had more sense than to vote
for them.

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>The ADIZ already encompasses an area with a population bigger than your
>>entire state.
>
> Wow. Why would y'all cram yourselves into such a tiny area?

'Cause there's money to be made there.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George Patterson]

gatt wrote:
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message news:vZyge.1550

I did not.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George Patterson]

kontiki wrote:
>
> You young guys don't have the perspective to appreciate just
> how different this country is today compared to 40 years ago.

Yep. I haven't seen a sign that says "******, don't let the sun go down on you
in this town" since 1965.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George Patterson]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Martin,
>>
>>
>>>it shows how damn stupid we human beeings really are.
>>>
>>
>>It's still not funny for me.
>>
>>--
>>Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>>
>
>
> What I want to know is where were all those ninnies running to. Do they
> just go out into the streets and run around in circles bumping into each
> other?
>
>
>


--
George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George Patterson]

Dave Stadt wrote:
>
> What I want to know is where were all those ninnies running to.

They were told to "head south." That would put them eventually into the Potomac,
wouldn't it?

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[StellaStarr]

Sully wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2005 02:26:13 GMT, George Patterson
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Sully wrote:
>>
>>>Something to remember though through all of this is that it was a
>>>"STUDENT" and instructor.
>>
>>Where did you hear it was an instructor? The AOPA blurb doesn't say that, and
>>the landings database doesn't show a CFI certificate for Jim Schaeffer.
>>
>>George Patterson
>> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
>> mashed potatoes.
>
>
> After checking CNN again you are right it did say Pilot and Student.
> Not real sure where I heard instructor, think it was local radio
> though but we know how the news media verifies facts before
> publishing.

I just love it when people who make silly mistakes blame the media for
being almost as wrong as they are. The media, after all, have an
obligation to be far more perfect than humans.

[Roger]

On Fri, 13 May 2005 02:43:51 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

>Dave Stadt wrote:
>>
>> What I want to know is where were all those ninnies running to.
>
>They were told to "head south." That would put them eventually into the Potomac,
>wouldn't it?

Some were sent to shelters and some... along with the reporters were
sent to the parking garage. I guess that would firmly establish the
pecking order in a visual fashion. There shouldn't be any one left
who doesn't know where they stand.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> Actually, it was half a dozen assh*les who decided to kill thousands of
> innocents by using airplanes as missiles.
>

No, it wasn't REALLY them.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Corky Scott]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 12:28:35 GMT, "Cecil Chapman"
> wrote:

>I was surprised to learn that the flight was manned by a CFI along with his
>student (they were going to an airshow). I should think that the CFI should
>at least be required to demonstrate their navigation skills in a partial
>checkride. I mean,,, geez!?

Not a CFI. A certified pilot and a student pilot but the certified
pilot was not a CFI according to Phil Boyer, who has been attempting
to straighten out the facts for several days now.

See the online version of AOPA, just came out this morning.

Corky Scott

[Corky Scott]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 16:06:02 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>Yeah, I wonder if "Operation Minuteman" (or whatever the heck it's called)
>is having any effect?

Yes it had an effect. It had an effect where the "Operation
Minuteman" people were stationed. They admitted that the illegal
border crossers simply moved over beyond where they were though.

Corky Scott

[Corky Scott]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 15:50:00 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>What this CFI did wrong has NOTHING to do with flying, and everything to do
>with attitude and intelligence.

The pilot of the 150 was not a CFI.

Corky Scott

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, x-ray wrote:
>> Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
>
> Well. Greetings from Diso system, from an ex. smuggler and a sicko who uses
> mining grade lasers to attack other ships.

Funny where other Elite fans show up :-)

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dave Stadt]

"x-ray" > wrote in message
...
> "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> > I'm not exactly the world's strongest guy but even I could manhandle the
> > 76lb Davy Crockett projectile.
>
> Me too, but for a limited period of time, with each step walking slower
and
> slower. :o)

So you put it on one of those two wheel luggage carriers. Problem solved
for $25.

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:RfUge.4937$1f5.1926@trndny01...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >>The ADIZ already encompasses an area with a population bigger than your
> >>entire state.
> >
> > Wow. Why would y'all cram yourselves into such a tiny area?
>
> 'Cause there's money to be made there.

Jay seems to be doing pretty good. And I sure ain't complaining.

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:OpUge.4940$1f5.3520@trndny01...
> kontiki wrote:
> >
> > You young guys don't have the perspective to appreciate just
> > how different this country is today compared to 40 years ago.
>
> Yep. I haven't seen a sign that says "******, don't let the sun go down on
you
> in this town" since 1965.

Yeah, only the BAD things changed.

Our descendants will likely **** on our graves.

[Matt Barrow]

"StellaStarr" > wrote in message
news:5HUge.74655$r53.68914@attbi_s21...
> Sully wrote:
> >
> > After checking CNN again you are right it did say Pilot and Student.
> > Not real sure where I heard instructor, think it was local radio
> > though but we know how the news media verifies facts before
> > publishing.
>
> I just love it when people who make silly mistakes blame the media for
> being almost as wrong as they are. The media, after all, have an
> obligation to be far more perfect than humans.

If they were even accurate 10% of the time...on ANY story.

[gatt]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message news:045he.20\

> > I just love it when people who make silly mistakes blame the media for
> > being almost as wrong as they are. The media, after all, have an
> > obligation to be far more perfect than humans.
>
> If they were even accurate 10% of the time...on ANY story.

....they probably STILL wouldn't have accidentally flown a Cessna into
restricted airspace and something as visibly obvious as the nation's
capitol.

Those freakin' aviators, man. Sheesh...

-c
Watch the generalizations. Occasionally they bite back.

[Jimmy B.]

Montblack wrote:
> ("Jimmy B." wrote)
>
>> With all this talk of A-bombs, I would like to say hello to all the
>> government agents who are now reading this thread.
>>
>> HI GUYS!
>>
>> We're all good Americans here!
>
>
>
> I thought it was decided that we weren't .. I mean all good Americans
> ...I mean we weren't all Americans here on the newsgroups.

Yeah, I know there are other nationalities on the newsgroups, but I
assumed that only Americans would be silly enough to discuss the
feasibility of carrying an A-bomb on an open connection. Especially
considering how paranoid the government has become.

I sincerely hope I did not offend any non-Americans on the newsgroups.


>
> "Knock, knock, knock." - Oh crap!!
>
> So your plan was to drop your suitcase bomb last Monday?
> Yes, but the weather wouldn't cooperate - low ceilings all day.
>
> What about last Wednesday? What happened to that plan?
> Wheel shimmy and a locking brake. That plane will be ready in 3 weeks.
>
> And this past weekend?
> Couldn't get a plane. Weather was great, all the planes were rented.
>
> And yesterday?
> Only thing available was the Lance. We're not checked out in the Lance.
>
>
> Montblack
> Loathing terrorists (and gang-bangers)
> Fearing American Gulags

[Jimmy B.]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> "Jimmy B." > wrote:
>
>
>>We're all good Americans here!
>
>
> :-))
>
> plus a bunch of foreigners.
>
> #m
WHAT? Hey what's a non-American doing on the Internet?

;-)

I hope I didn't offend with the "good Americans" comment.

[Dave Stadt]

"Jimmy B." > wrote in message
.net...
> Martin Hotze wrote:
> > "Jimmy B." > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>We're all good Americans here!
> >
> >
> > :-))
> >
> > plus a bunch of foreigners.
> >
> > #m
> WHAT? Hey what's a non-American doing on the Internet?
>
> ;-)

After all that fine American Al Gore invented it.

[Blueskies]

"Tom Fleischman" > wrote>
> Yes, and Bin Laden must be howling with laughter at us. He is sitting safe and secure in Pakistan while we are in the
> process of destroying our own constitution, our reputation around the world and our economy, not to mention the
> thousands of our own young men and women and hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan that we
> have killed with this bungled "war on terror".
>
> Our government is in the hands of fascists folks.
>
> I weep for my beloved nation.
>
> Wake Up!
>

Follow this link, fourth paragraph...

http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/presidential%2Dpapers/first%2Dterm/documents/1147.cfm

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 13 May 2005 23:47:10 GMT, "Blueskies"
> wrote in
>::

>
>"Tom Fleischman" > wrote>
>> Yes, and Bin Laden must be howling with laughter at us. He is sitting safe and secure in Pakistan while we are in the
>> process of destroying our own constitution, our reputation around the world and our economy, not to mention the
>> thousands of our own young men and women and hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan that we
>> have killed with this bungled "war on terror".
>>
>> Our government is in the hands of fascists folks.
>>
>> I weep for my beloved nation.
>>
>> Wake Up!
>>
>
>Follow this link, fourth paragraph...
>
>http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/presidential%2Dpapers/first%2Dterm/documents/1147.cfm
>

This part?

The Papers of Dwight David Eisenhower:

The political processes of our country are such that if a rule of
reason is not applied in this effort, we will lose
everything--even to a possible and drastic change in the
Constitution. This is what I mean by my constant insistence upon
"moderation" in government. Should any political party attempt to
abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate
labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party
again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of
course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H.
L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil
millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from
other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.

They may be stupid, but that "tiny splinter group" has managed to
seize power in this fair nation, and true to President Eisenhower's
prescience, they are trampling the Constitution.

[George Patterson]

Jimmy B. wrote:
>
> Yeah, I know there are other nationalities on the newsgroups, but I
> assumed that only Americans would be silly enough to discuss the
> feasibility of carrying an A-bomb on an open connection.

Actually, the poster who has provided the most information regarding weights and
sizes of various extant weapons is from the Isle of Mann.

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.

[george]

George Patterson wrote:
> Jimmy B. wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, I know there are other nationalities on the newsgroups, but I

> > assumed that only Americans would be silly enough to discuss the
> > feasibility of carrying an A-bomb on an open connection.
>
> Actually, the poster who has provided the most information regarding
weights and
> sizes of various extant weapons is from the Isle of Mann.

Noticed that :-)
I was waiting for some-one to mention Manpacks

[S.]

>>As always, intelligent (sometimes pithy !) observation from members of the
>>aviation community in the above postings ; I agree with all of it.
>>
>>Newsreel footage of EVERYONE in D.C. scattering in all directions has just
>>been shown on Channel 4 news (U.K.) ; it looked like a badly made disaster
>>movie. A police officer shouted "GET OUT, NOW !" to the floor of the
>>House.
>>Unseemly and totally lacking in composure or dignity.
>>
>>If this is what an off-track Cessna can do the the worlds most
>>technologically powerful and sophisticated nation, I have to ask "Have the
>>terrorists already won ?".
>>
>>I hope to go to San Diego, and work my way up to CPL in August, achieving
>>the last of my life's ambitions at 48.It would be tragic if the
>>authorities
>>were to restrict the people who could take the controls of an aircraft, by
>>way of "security measures".
>>
>>Idiots like this one today may curtail that, if they don't take the ease
>>of
>>access to flying, just a little bit less for granted.
>>
>>
>
> Does the smoke "win" when the fire alarm goes off?

Inanimate object, so I don't have a frame of reference......... :-) . My
only point being that the pictures I mentioned were transmitted around the
world, no doubt giving sick satisfaction to those *******s who would do
America harm.......and it was only an idiot off course..........
>
> Lets stay vigilant for our rights and be calm.
> I do not expect a huge fallout from this.
> AOPA will be there every inch of the way.

Hhhmmmmm
>
> The story is still unfolding with all the typical media foul ups on
> the details.

There is always the media "play-up" factor...
>
> You will LOVE San Diego!

I can't wait. I have some medical hurdles to jump before I can go to London
for my JAR-FCL1 medical exam (337 pounds...... = US$ 637 !!!), but as soon
as I have that, I'm enrolling ! My sister (Boston) rates SD as one of the
finest cities she has ever seen, and she has *travelled*. Niece works in the
movie biz in L.A., so I will have 'family' near. Never been further west
than Houston, so that + the flying (at my time of life) = Adventure !!!

> MYF?

Sorry, don't know this one ..........Flying !???


Steve.

[george]

Sport Pilot wrote:
> Larry Dighera wrote:
> > On Wed, 11 May 2005 20:03:57 +0100, "S." >
> wrote
> > in >::
> >
> > >Newsreel footage of EVERYONE in D.C. scattering in all directions
> has just
> > >been shown on Channel 4 news (U.K.) ; it looked like a badly made
> disaster
> > >movie. A police officer shouted "GET OUT, NOW !" to the floor of
the
> House.
> > >Unseemly and totally lacking in composure or dignity.
> > >
> > >If this is what an off-track Cessna can do the the worlds most
> > >technologically powerful and sophisticated nation, I have to ask
> "Have the
> > >terrorists already won ?".
> >
> > In light of the British people continuing to man their shops and
> posts
> > during the nightly bomb raids by the Nazis during the Battle of
> > Britain, these pusillanimous Americans scattering in panic must
> appear
> > particularly pathetic.
>
> I only hope their overeaction make geting rid of GA seem silly.


Yup. As I understand it there have been in excess of 180 aircraft
'incursions' into the 'banned' area.
Why wasn't this little fact reported at the same time as all the
nonsense ?

Why not ban -all- movements in and around that city?
All aircraft movements to stop 100nm away...
Then get rid of the politicians after all they are the major target...

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 13 May 2005 02:43:51 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

>Dave Stadt wrote:
>>
>> What I want to know is where were all those ninnies running to.
>
>They were told to "head south." That would put them eventually into the Potomac,
>wouldn't it?

Lemmings

Mike Weller

[Margy]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> Sport Pilot wrote:
>
>
>>Not when its possible for a C150 to carry a small A bomb in a suitcase.
>
>
> One can carry much more, without the problem of dodging fighters, in a
> minivan.
>
> When DC is closed off to all vehicular traffic, I'll believe that someone is
> serious about security and I'll accept what's being done to GA there.
> Absent that, this is a joke and we're the butt of that joke.
>
> - Andrew
>
Yeah, when people ask me what I think of the FRZ (used to be TFR) I
always say if they want to "make the skies safe over DC" they have to
ban ALL AIR TRAFFIC within a reasonable distance, like 200 miles. This
would of course close Dulles, Washington, Baltimore, Richmond,
Philadelphia, etc. Folks always say "They CAN'T do THAT!". To which I
respond that I agree, but putting a silly band-aid, do nothing policy on
small aircraft in the DC area is just as silly.

I'm sure more damage could be inflicted with a rental truck in downtown
DC than with a 172 (or even a Citation)if desired and they aren't going
to close down DC to motor vehicles. People get upset when they do the
truck checks on Capitol Hill!

Margy

[Jay Beckman]

"george" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> George Patterson wrote:
>> Jimmy B. wrote:
>> >
>> > Yeah, I know there are other nationalities on the newsgroups, but I
>
>> > assumed that only Americans would be silly enough to discuss the
>> > feasibility of carrying an A-bomb on an open connection.
>>
>> Actually, the poster who has provided the most information regarding
> weights and
>> sizes of various extant weapons is from the Isle of Mann.
>
> Noticed that :-)
> I was waiting for some-one to mention Manpacks
>

What's a "Manpack?"

Jay B

[W P Dixon]

I dunno,.....
But it sure sounds like something done in prison ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in >>
>
> What's a "Manpack?"
>
> Jay B
>
>

[Montblack]

("W P Dixon" wrote)
>> What's a "Manpack?"

>I dunno,.....
> But it sure sounds like something done in prison ;)


We have a winner!!!

http://www.whizzinator.com/
(A.K.A. ..."Manpack" <g>)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7816844/
(MN Vikings football player caught by TSA at MSP)

http://www.startribune.com/stories/510/5396655.html
(Detailed Whizzinator story)

(From the Minneapolis Star-Tribune link)
During the search, a Transportation Security Administration officer found
"six or seven" vials of white powder in a clear bag, according to the
report. Airport police were called to the scene and began inspecting the
materials in a private room.

A sample from one of the vials tested negative for cocaine and opiates.
Smith was then led into the room and identified the powder as dried urine.
He also acknowledged the presence of a Whizzinator.


Montblack
I hope they cop didn't stick his pinky finger into the white powder and
taste a small sample for cocaine - like they do on TV. Yuck!!!

[Jay Beckman]

"abripl" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I still don't see real logic in getting excited about a small plane
> that cannot carry much but not about all sorts of cars & trucks that
> can get into the area and are the prefered vehicles of terrorists.
>

And there you have the entire crux of the matter: Logic (and the lack
thereof...)

Jay B

[Jay Beckman]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:K9Lge.76006$WI3.51424@attbi_s71...
>> The figures I heard were about 4,000 illegal infiltrators a night, and
>> an estimate of 1-million a year crossing the southern border.
>
> Yeah, I wonder if "Operation Minuteman" (or whatever the heck it's called)
> is having any effect?
>
> Or if all the good ole boy volunteers got tired of driving around the
> desert, and went home...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

Jay H,

It's unusual for you to jump to stereotypes...

Yeah, some of them probably came with the twisted idea of going Mexican
hunting, but most of the volunteers were armed with nothing more than a pair
of binoculars, a radio and a cooler of soda. Many elderly residents of
southern AZ took part.

You'd have to live down in this part of the country to better understand the
situation. It goes beyond just the integrity of the boarder itself because
of the impact it has on the people who live down in southeast AZ. Ranchers
are losing cattle and horses. Supplies are being stolen out of barns and
sheds. "Coyotes" (imigrant smugglers) routinely just dump their load of
Mexicans in the desert to fend for themselves (if they don't shoot them all
in the head first.) There have been several incidents of "Coyote Road Rage"
where rival vanloads of illegals have exchanged gunfire on area freeways
during rush hour.

Like most issues, there are sub-issues which branch off into many different
areas that don't necessarilly get any press or consideration.

Jay B

[Jay Beckman]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:vVKge.75939$c24.26673@attbi_s72...
>> How many more times do you think it can be allowed to happen before the
>> FAA/TSA/CIA/Whomever says "Enough is enough" -- and terminates our flight
>> privileges anywhere near D.C.?
>
> I suspect they look at such events as useful fire drills. The incursions
> let them test their procedures under real-life, unplanned circumstances
> that are nonetheless benign.
>
> --Gary
>
>

What's "funny" is that CNN had a Senator on later in the day who was
complaining that they never have any "Security Drills" nor do they have ANY
clear cut procedures for where to go or what to do in case of evacuation.

My assumption is that he is refering specifically to Congress since they
seemed to have the ability to wisk the VP away in pretty short order.

He said the Capitol Police just busted in and said "Everyone Run...NOW!!!
You Have Three Minutes To Get Out."

Jay B