midair in Bay Area Nov 7 [Archive]

Waveguru

November 10th 20, 10:56 PM

Glider-tow plane collisions happens every few years. This is the reason that at our operation, when the glider releases, he makes a slight turn to the right, and announces that he has released, and the tow pilot confirms on the radio the release. The tow pilot turns left and begins his decent. The glider stops turning right and keeps his eyes on the tow plane until they are both well clear of each other. After the release, the glider pilot is the only one that can see the other plane, and a collision with the tow plane is the biggest danger at that time. It is imperative that glider operations stop the practice of both the tow plane and the glider turning in such a way that NEITHER planes can see each other during separation. At least one of the planes needs to make sure there is a complete, positive separation, and communicate that. Almost all of us have radios these days. We need to use them better.

Boggs

Ramy[_2_]

November 17th 20, 01:10 AM

On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 8:39:41 AM UTC-8, Waveguru wrote:
> I wonder if they were at least talking to each other? Ramy, were you hearing anything on the radio? Anyone else?
>
>
> Boggs
They were not talking to each other and not aware of each other. They didnâ€™t see each other until a split second before impact. One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware. They were both cruising under a cloud street and collided head on at 5300 ft MSL (3500 AGL) with their left wings significantly damaging the wings. Both gliders entered vertical or negative dive which helped them bailing out quickly as they fell of the gliders as soon as they released the seat belts. One pilot was mostly unscratched, the other was hospitalized due to hard landing on a slope and is recovering from back injury.
I urge everyone to make sure to fly with operative powerflarm and upgrade the powerflarm firmware every year during the annual.

Ramy

Darren Braun

November 17th 20, 01:26 AM

> I urge everyone to make sure to fly with operative powerflarm and upgrade the powerflarm firmware every year during the annual.

Indeed, during the annual. The perfect time to do it and then you'll not be later questioning, did I or didn't I?
A PSA is probably worth doing through RAS with a little how-to in spring for those of us in Northern Hemisphere. I always found those helpful.

Tony[_5_]

November 17th 20, 01:36 AM

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 7:10:11 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 8:39:41 AM UTC-8, Waveguru wrote:
> > I wonder if they were at least talking to each other? Ramy, were you hearing anything on the radio? Anyone else?
> >
> >
> > Boggs
> They were not talking to each other and not aware of each other. They didnâ€™t see each other until a split second before impact. One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware. They were both cruising under a cloud street and collided head on at 5300 ft MSL (3500 AGL) with their left wings significantly damaging the wings. Both gliders entered vertical or negative dive which helped them bailing out quickly as they fell of the gliders as soon as they released the seat belts. One pilot was mostly unscratched, the other was hospitalized due to hard landing on a slope and is recovering from back injury.
> I urge everyone to make sure to fly with operative powerflarm and upgrade the powerflarm firmware every year during the annual.
>
> Ramy

I hope FLARM realizes how lucky they are that the pilot did not die. They intentionally program a piece of safety equipment to brick itself once a year which then directly leads to the loss of life? I can see the crying widow in the courtroom now. Not pretty.

George Haeh

November 17th 20, 01:51 AM

Yikes! This is the THIRD collision I've heard of in the last year and a half between PowerFLARM equipped aircraft where one of the PowerFLARMs is not working. In the first two cases the towplane PowerFLARM was not operating, one because of undisclosed issues, the other because the towpilot was taxiing back to the hangar without turning on the PowerFLARM when a glider at the end of its landing run pulled in front.

3 Missed Opportunities
5 Write Offs
2 Fatalities
1 Hospitalisation

How much has/will your insurance go(ne) up ?

jfitch

November 17th 20, 03:11 AM

Do you realize how irrational that comment is? It is entirely up to the pilot to update, they have a year to do it (firmware works for 2 years with a year overlap). If the pilot chooses, he can not have his parachute repacked, or not bother with the wing pins too. This should have the parachute and glider manufacturer quaking in their boots. In addition, it suggests flight is not possible without Flarm, which of course it used to be and often still is. I'm pretty sure every Flarm display will signal quite loudly that the firmware is inop. The alternative is to have a static system.

This is not to cast aspersions on the pilot, whom I know to be conscientious, plenty of people have and will again fly without or with inop Flarm. But to blame the manufacturer for this accident is ludicrous. If neither pilot had Flarm (legal and common) the outcome would be the same.

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 5:36:13 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
> On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 7:10:11 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 8:39:41 AM UTC-8, Waveguru wrote:
> > > I wonder if they were at least talking to each other? Ramy, were you hearing anything on the radio? Anyone else?
> > >
> > >
> > > Boggs
> > They were not talking to each other and not aware of each other. They didnâ€™t see each other until a split second before impact. One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware. They were both cruising under a cloud street and collided head on at 5300 ft MSL (3500 AGL) with their left wings significantly damaging the wings. Both gliders entered vertical or negative dive which helped them bailing out quickly as they fell of the gliders as soon as they released the seat belts. One pilot was mostly unscratched, the other was hospitalized due to hard landing on a slope and is recovering from back injury.
> > I urge everyone to make sure to fly with operative powerflarm and upgrade the powerflarm firmware every year during the annual.
> >
> > Ramy
> I hope FLARM realizes how lucky they are that the pilot did not die. They intentionally program a piece of safety equipment to brick itself once a year which then directly leads to the loss of life? I can see the crying widow in the courtroom now. Not pretty.

Guy Acheson[_2_]

November 17th 20, 03:19 AM

OK...I am ready to get flamed.
I have flown with a PowerFlarm for several years.
False alarms. Searching frantically for aircraft that I just never see or do not exist.
Flying with a group, all with Flarm, and several do not show on my screen because they have carbon fuselages and antennas that are blocked.
Flying head to head with another Flarm aircraft and no display.
Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens when I was not flying...multiple times!
The programing and configuration issues are just too much.
My system is updated and confirmed with and by experts.
But, most are not.
For me, it has not been a dependable, reliable, predictable piece of equipment.
My experiences in France have been much better.
My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected by aircraft mechanics.
Here in the USA...the Flarm system mostly increases my anxiety and complicates my flying day.

Gregg Ballou[_2_]

November 17th 20, 04:03 AM

Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the gliders didn't have Flarm?

Ramy[_2_]

November 17th 20, 05:45 AM

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 7:19:41 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
> OK...I am ready to get flamed.
> I have flown with a PowerFlarm for several years.
> False alarms. Searching frantically for aircraft that I just never see or do not exist.
> Flying with a group, all with Flarm, and several do not show on my screen because they have carbon fuselages and antennas that are blocked.
> Flying head to head with another Flarm aircraft and no display.
> Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens when I was not flying...multiple times!
> The programing and configuration issues are just too much.
> My system is updated and confirmed with and by experts.
> But, most are not.
> For me, it has not been a dependable, reliable, predictable piece of equipment.
> My experiences in France have been much better.
> My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected by aircraft mechanics.
> Here in the USA...the Flarm system mostly increases my anxiety and complicates my flying day.

One great thing about flarm is that it works even if you donâ€™t know how to use it or confused by it. It is sufficient if only the other pilot knows. So I always tell the Luddite (no offense) to turn on their flarm and ignore it if they are not comfortable with it, and then spend some time in the winter learning it and improving it.

Regarding the question if there been midairâ€™s without flarm. Well, the good news is that less and less people fly without flarm so there are less midairs also without flarm. Overall there are much less midairs, the only ones I recall either had inop flarms or happen in gaggles where flarm is no more effective than see and avoid.

Ramy

Martin Gregorie[_6_]

November 17th 20, 12:36 PM

On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 19:11:54 -0800, jfitch wrote:

> Do you realize how irrational that comment is? It is entirely up to the
> pilot to update, they have a year to do it (firmware works for 2 years
> with a year overlap).
>
I'm somewhat surprised that checking the FLARM software version isn't
part of your annual. It is here: if FLARM is installed the software must
be up to date to get the annual signed off.

--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Nicholas Kennedy

November 17th 20, 01:17 PM

We could try and work together as a group on this non functioning Flarm problem.
If your Flarm or a friends doesn't work as it should , which is Really well, get some help or give some help to fix it until it does. This mid air is exactly what Flarm was designed to prevent!
But it takes two to Tango. I understand that in Carbon Fuselage ships the install is very important, but obviously that has been worked out a long time ago.
FWIW in my fiberglass LS3a my Flarm has worked well from day 1. It is very easy to update it, and as Ramy stated even if you don't know how to use it, turn it on. The "Lady " will tell you where the traffic is if you have it connected to a talking display. This accident was exactly what Flarm was and could have been for. Its too bad Flarm WAS installed in both ships, but one owner didn't keep his operating.
Both those guys got lucky, very lucky.
Nick
T

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

November 17th 20, 01:46 PM

Guy Acheson wrote on 11/16/2020 7:19 PM:
> OK...I am ready to get flamed.
> I have flown with a PowerFlarm for several years.
> False alarms. Searching frantically for aircraft that I just never see or do not exist.
> Flying with a group, all with Flarm, and several do not show on my screen because they have carbon fuselages and antennas that are blocked.
> Flying head to head with another Flarm aircraft and no display.
> Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens when I was not flying...multiple times!
> The programing and configuration issues are just too much.
> My system is updated and confirmed with and by experts.
> But, most are not.
> For me, it has not been a dependable, reliable, predictable piece of equipment.
> My experiences in France have been much better.
> My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected by aircraft mechanics.
> Here in the USA...the Flarm system mostly increases my anxiety and complicates my flying day.
>
It is unfortunate that your experience with Flarm is so poor. I have flown with Flarm for many
years and ...

-essentially no false alarms: there is always a glider there when I have an alarm.
-when flying in a "group" (which I think means gliders less than a mile away, going the same
direction and thermalling together) all the gliders always show on my Flarm. Most of them are
carbon gliders.
-Head to Head: the other glider always shows (my antennas are in the nose, so forward is the best)
-I programed it once and used it that way for years, still do
-I update it once a year, it's easy (I do have read the instructions each time)

I have no explanation for why our experiences are so different, but I think your experience is
extreme. Perhaps your installation is much of the problem, and it should be reviewed by a
different expert, even a pilot with experience using several systems.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Mark Mocho

November 17th 20, 03:15 PM

I agree that your installation may be suspect. You might try downloading some of your flights and running them through the Flarm Range Analysis tool. The results may point out where you have blind spots due to installation issues. If that doesn't help, an instrument evaluation by Richard at Craggy Aero might be an obvious next step. Your Config file may also have some of the range and altitude settings either too low, or possibly some features are not enabled. I had some problems early on, especially when using an early version of the Configuration tool. Richard looked at the file and set it up correctly. And the issues went away. Of course, some of the appearance/disappearance problems may be from the opposing glider's own installation inadequacies. Flarm has been a great addition to my cockpit, especially with the targets showing on the LX9000.

Mike Oliver[_2_]

November 17th 20, 03:32 PM

At 04:03 17 November 2020, Gregg Ballou wrote:
>Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the
gliders
>didn't have Flarm?
>

I can't directly answer this question but very nearly had one myself this
summer.

Was flying near Col de Carro in French Alps. Ground there is about 3-
3200 metres, Cloudbase I recall being around 3800 so not a huge
amount of room. There were alot of gliders in the area, I could see at
least 7/8. Three were below and in front of me in a thermal and I
planned to pass above their thermal. Flarm was giving me collision
warnings and I (WRONGLY!) assumed it was the gliders in front of me.

I then saw another glider at 90 degrees to my track heading straight for
my wing tip at exactly the same level. They were horribly close and I do
not know how we did not collide.

The experience has reinforced something said to me, as a a student
many many years ago, pre Flarm but just as relevant ' Don't
concentrate on the gliders you have seen. You're not likely to collide
with them. Keep looking for the ones you haven't seen.' (Thanks Mike
Pirie)

Dan Marotta

November 17th 20, 04:05 PM

On 11/16/20 6:10 PM, Ramy wrote:
> One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware.

I wonder how many personal injury attorneys saw that statement...

--
Dan
5J

Darren Braun

November 17th 20, 04:07 PM

> Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens when I was not flying...multiple times!
Sounds very strange, but thinking that could be a flarmnet registration problem where someone else may have your contest id?

Otherwise, early on, I had a lot of strange issues until I took apart my antenna and found it was essentially disconnected inside the antenna housing ...a manufacturing flaw.
Which means for about 1 year I had been flying around with no antenna...and the thing actually still worked but with only 1/2 mile range. Once I got a new antenna, pflarm has worked like a champ and the ADSB-in feature is tremendous these days when most if not all powered aircraft have ADSB-out.
Darren

Dan Marotta

November 17th 20, 04:08 PM

On 11/16/20 6:51 PM, George Haeh wrote:
> Yikes! This is the THIRD collision I've heard of in the last year and a half between PowerFLARM equipped aircraft where one of the PowerFLARMs is not working. In the first two cases the towplane PowerFLARM was not operating, one because of undisclosed issues, the other because the towpilot was taxiing back to the hangar without turning on the PowerFLARM when a glider at the end of its landing run pulled in front.
>
> 3 Missed Opportunities
> 5 Write Offs
> 2 Fatalities
> 1 Hospitalisation
>
> How much has/will your insurance go(ne) up ?
>

Kinda makes one wonder how many of these collisions would have happened
in the era before Flarm. You know, when pilots actually looked outside
more often.

--
Dan
5J

Ramy[_2_]

November 17th 20, 05:01 PM

On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 8:06:00 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 11/16/20 6:10 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware.
> I wonder how many personal injury attorneys saw that statement...
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J
Flarm is voluntary installation after all.
The pilot with the operating flarm was not injured.
The point here is not to put blame.
Every year I hear of multiple expired firmwares, including that very same day he wasnâ€™t the only one.
There is an awareness and confusion issue which we need to address.
I am planning to always have the latest firmware on a USB stick with me (without my config file!) and periodically ask my buddies at the airport if they upgraded the firmware this year, if not, will upgrade it for them on the spot.

Ramy

Dan Marotta

November 17th 20, 05:37 PM

On 11/16/20 8:19 PM, Guy Acheson wrote:
> OK...I am ready to get flamed.
> I have flown with a PowerFlarm for several years.
> False alarms. Searching frantically for aircraft that I just never see or do not exist.
> Flying with a group, all with Flarm, and several do not show on my screen because they have carbon fuselages and antennas that are blocked.
> Flying head to head with another Flarm aircraft and no display.
> Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens when I was not flying...multiple times!
> The programing and configuration issues are just too much.
> My system is updated and confirmed with and by experts.
> But, most are not.
> For me, it has not been a dependable, reliable, predictable piece of equipment.
> My experiences in France have been much better.
> My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected by aircraft mechanics.
> Here in the USA...the Flarm system mostly increases my anxiety and complicates my flying day.
>

I chose to respond here because I've experienced a lot of the above.

My biggest complaint with Flarm is that ,when flying along with a friend
a hundred or so yards apart, co-altitude and not in any danger of a
collision, the thing screams continuously about an imminent threat. If
I could only have the ability to selectively silence the alarm of my choice.

I'd also like to have the ability to transmit on both antennae. Can
anyone explain why the US FCC prohibits that capability? Having a
carbon fuselage, I can receive transmitters from below via an external
blade antenna but they can't receive my glare shield mounted "A" antenna.

And for those who don't want a blade antenna on the belly, how about a
stick on copper dipole strip cut to the right length? Not being
vertically polarized means that it won't be optimum, but it'd be better
than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

--
Dan
5J

Tango Eight

November 17th 20, 05:47 PM

On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 12:37:32 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> My biggest complaint with Flarm is that ,when flying along with a friend
> a hundred or so yards apart, co-altitude and not in any danger of a
> collision, the thing screams continuously about an imminent threat.

Add to your configuration file:

# set competition mode (ON = 2, OFF = 0)
$PFLAC,S,CFLAGS,2

Enjoy. You're welcome. Read flarm docs for details.

T8

Dan Marotta

November 17th 20, 05:56 PM

On 11/17/20 10:47 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 12:37:32 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> My biggest complaint with Flarm is that ,when flying along with a friend
>> a hundred or so yards apart, co-altitude and not in any danger of a
>> collision, the thing screams continuously about an imminent threat.
>
> Add to your configuration file:
>
> # set competition mode (ON = 2, OFF = 0)
> $PFLAC,S,CFLAGS,2
>
> Enjoy. You're welcome. Read flarm docs for details.
>
> T8
>

Thanks, I'll do both!

--
Dan
5J

John Galloway[_2_]

November 17th 20, 06:39 PM

The first thing to do if you think you are not getting alerts that you should is to run your most recent flight log through the Flarm range analyser. I don't know if all varieties of Power Flarm do this but my LX Nav 9070 with integrated PF keeps a record somehow of previous flights' Flarm contacts so the most recent record gives the best diagram of the known coverage.

On Tuesday, 17 November 2020 at 13:46:18 UTC, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Guy Acheson wrote on 11/16/2020 7:19 PM:
> > OK...I am ready to get flamed.
> > I have flown with a PowerFlarm for several years.
> > False alarms. Searching frantically for aircraft that I just never see or do not exist.
> > Flying with a group, all with Flarm, and several do not show on my screen because they have carbon fuselages and antennas that are blocked.
> > Flying head to head with another Flarm aircraft and no display.
> > Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens when I was not flying...multiple times!
> > The programing and configuration issues are just too much.
> > My system is updated and confirmed with and by experts.
> > But, most are not.
> > For me, it has not been a dependable, reliable, predictable piece of equipment.
> > My experiences in France have been much better.
> > My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected by aircraft mechanics.
> > Here in the USA...the Flarm system mostly increases my anxiety and complicates my flying day.
> >
> It is unfortunate that your experience with Flarm is so poor. I have flown with Flarm for many
> years and ...
>
> -essentially no false alarms: there is always a glider there when I have an alarm.
> -when flying in a "group" (which I think means gliders less than a mile away, going the same
> direction and thermalling together) all the gliders always show on my Flarm. Most of them are
> carbon gliders.
> -Head to Head: the other glider always shows (my antennas are in the nose, so forward is the best)
> -I programed it once and used it that way for years, still do
> -I update it once a year, it's easy (I do have read the instructions each time)
>
> I have no explanation for why our experiences are so different, but I think your experience is
> extreme. Perhaps your installation is much of the problem, and it should be reviewed by a
> different expert, even a pilot with experience using several systems.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Dave Nadler

November 17th 20, 09:28 PM

On 11/17/2020 12:01 PM, Ramy wrote:
> I am planning to always have the latest firmware on a USB stick with me (without my config file!) and periodically ask my buddies at the airport if they upgraded the firmware this year, if not, will upgrade it for them on the spot.

Thanks Ramy, for doing that and for setting a great example.

John Sinclair[_5_]

November 17th 20, 10:08 PM

On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 1:28:22 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On 11/17/2020 12:01 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > I am planning to always have the latest firmware on a USB stick with me (without my config file!) and periodically ask my buddies at the airport if they upgraded the firmware this year, if not, will upgrade it for them on the spot.
> Thanks Ramy, for doing that and for setting a great example.

I for one have had mostly positive results using Flarm. It saved me from a direct head on at Parowan on a day with 3000â€™ cloud base and everyone was cruising at cloud base, waiting for the gate to open!............it was screaming at both of us! I find it comforting to see whoâ€™s around me, both other Flarm guys and transponder traffic also. I was monitoring center frequency and watching a transponder target that showed near me and about 2000â€™ above me, when I heard center call me out to an airliner. My portable unit is mounted on the canopy rail about 12â€from my head. Had trouble reading it when mounted on the glare shield.......... my fuselage is carbon, but maybe the open location on canopy rail works better?
JJ

[email protected]

November 17th 20, 10:18 PM

On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:08:49 PM UTC-5, John Sinclair wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 1:28:22 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On 11/17/2020 12:01 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > > I am planning to always have the latest firmware on a USB stick with me (without my config file!) and periodically ask my buddies at the airport if they upgraded the firmware this year, if not, will upgrade it for them on the spot.
> > Thanks Ramy, for doing that and for setting a great example.
> I for one have had mostly positive results using Flarm. It saved me from a direct head on at Parowan on a day with 3000â€™ cloud base and everyone was cruising at cloud base, waiting for the gate to open!............it was screaming at both of us! I find it comforting to see whoâ€™s around me, both other Flarm guys and transponder traffic also. I was monitoring center frequency and watching a transponder target that showed near me and about 2000â€™ above me, when I heard center call me out to an airliner. My portable unit is mounted on the canopy rail about 12â€from my head. Had trouble reading it when mounted on the glare shield.......... my fuselage is carbon, but maybe the open location on canopy rail works better?
> JJ

Hey John, don't believe I would have said that, weren't you 500 feet below cloud base?

Dave Walsh[_2_]

November 17th 20, 10:52 PM

"My experiences in France have been much better.
My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected
by aircraft mechanics"

I'd be very surprised if the above was strictly correct for gliders in the

French Alps; generally it's the pilots who ensure they have a working
system. The important difference is that a working Flarm is MANDATORY
here in the French Alps.

[email protected]

November 18th 20, 12:58 AM

On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 2:56:56 PM UTC-8, Waveguru wrote:
> Glider-tow plane collisions happens every few years. This is the reason that at our operation, when the glider releases, he makes a slight turn to the right, and announces that he has released, and the tow pilot confirms on the radio the release. The tow pilot turns left and begins his decent. The glider stops turning right and keeps his eyes on the tow plane until they are both well clear of each other. After the release, the glider pilot is the only one that can see the other plane, and a collision with the tow plane is the biggest danger at that time. It is imperative that glider operations stop the practice of both the tow plane and the glider turning in such a way that NEITHER planes can see each other during separation. At least one of the planes needs to make sure there is a complete, positive separation, and communicate that. Almost all of us have radios these days. We need to use them better.
>
> Boggs

Back in Europe, upon release the tow plane turns right and glider turns left. In North America it is the other way around, which makes no difference other than in contest flying where there is a requirement to turn left in a thermal when x miles of the home airport, which is the same in North America as in Europe. This can cause a hazardous situation, especially when the glider releases from tow in or near a gaggle.

Branko
XYU

Ramy[_2_]

November 18th 20, 02:17 AM

On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:47:43 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 12:37:32 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > My biggest complaint with Flarm is that ,when flying along with a friend
> > a hundred or so yards apart, co-altitude and not in any danger of a
> > collision, the thing screams continuously about an imminent threat.
> Add to your configuration file:
>
> # set competition mode (ON = 2, OFF = 0)
> $PFLAC,S,CFLAGS,2
>
> Enjoy. You're welcome. Read flarm docs for details.
>
> T8
Many flarm displays allows you to configure low, medium, high for collision. I never have false alarms as mine is configured to high. I only get alarm when I should. I do not recommend competition mode unless you fly comp.

Ramy

Moshe Braner

November 18th 20, 04:04 AM

On 11/17/2020 12:01 PM, Ramy wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 8:06:00 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> On 11/16/20 6:10 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>> One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware.
>> I wonder how many personal injury attorneys saw that statement...
>>
>> --
>> Dan
>> 5J
> Flarm is voluntary installation after all.
> The pilot with the operating flarm was not injured.
> The point here is not to put blame.
> Every year I hear of multiple expired firmwares, including that very same day he wasnâ€™t the only one.
> There is an awareness and confusion issue which we need to address.
> I am planning to always have the latest firmware on a USB stick with me (without my config file!) and periodically ask my buddies at the airport if they upgraded the firmware this year, if not, will upgrade it for them on the spot.
>
> Ramy
>

Well this makes me angry. You buy a $2000 device for safety reasons and
they disable it behind your back just because you are late on the
firmware update?

I know they improve the algorithms over time, so it is a good idea to do
the update. But since the requirement is to update a year since the
last update, the versions in operation by different pilots on the same
day are not the same, they might be up to a year apart. So they must
keep them compatible. And as far as I know they mostly improve the
algorithm interpreting the data, not the format of the data sent out.
Thus old firmware is far better than the thing not working at all, for
both transmission and reception, for the safety of both the pilot with
the old firmware and the other pilots around.

When the battery in my smoke alarm gets weak, it emits an occasional
short beep to remind me. FLARM could emit occasional sounds (different
from the collision warming sound) to remind you that it's time to update
the firmware. And leave it at that.

Moshe Braner

November 18th 20, 04:12 AM

Steve Thompson[_2_]

November 18th 20, 09:47 AM

At 13:46 17 November 2020, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Guy Acheson wrote on 11/16/2020 7:19 PM:
>> OK...I am ready to get flamed.
>> I have flown with a PowerFlarm for several years.
>> False alarms. Searching frantically for aircraft that I just never see
>or do not exist.
>> Flying with a group, all with Flarm, and several do not show on my
screen
>because they have carbon fuselages and antennas that are blocked.
>> Flying head to head with another Flarm aircraft and no display.
>> Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens
>when I was not flying...multiple times!
>> The programing and configuration issues are just too much.
>> My system is updated and confirmed with and by experts.
>> But, most are not.
>> For me, it has not been a dependable, reliable, predictable piece of
>equipment.
>> My experiences in France have been much better.
>> My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected
by
>aircraft mechanics.
>> Here in the USA...the Flarm system mostly increases my anxiety and
>complicates my flying day.
>>
>It is unfortunate that your experience with Flarm is so poor. I have
flown
>with Flarm for many
>years and ...
>
>-essentially no false alarms: there is always a glider there when I have
an
>alarm.
>-when flying in a "group" (which I think means gliders less than a mile
>away, going the same
>direction and thermalling together) all the gliders always show on my
>Flarm. Most of them are
>carbon gliders.
>-Head to Head: the other glider always shows (my antennas are in the
nose,
>so forward is the best)
>-I programed it once and used it that way for years, still do
>-I update it once a year, it's easy (I do have read the instructions each
>time)
>
>I have no explanation for why our experiences are so different, but I
think
>your experience is
>extreme. Perhaps your installation is much of the problem, and it should
be
>reviewed by a
>different expert, even a pilot with experience using several systems.
>
>--
>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email
>me)
>- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>
>https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-
1
>
fwiw I agree 100% with Eric Greenwell's comment...and especially that
proper installation and checking performance is essential.

Tango Eight

November 18th 20, 12:35 PM

On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:17:51 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:47:43 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 12:37:32 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > My biggest complaint with Flarm is that ,when flying along with a friend
> > > a hundred or so yards apart, co-altitude and not in any danger of a
> > > collision, the thing screams continuously about an imminent threat.
> > Add to your configuration file:
> >
> > # set competition mode (ON = 2, OFF = 0)
> > $PFLAC,S,CFLAGS,2
> >
> > Enjoy. You're welcome. Read flarm docs for details.
> >
> > T8
> Many flarm displays allows you to configure low, medium, high for collision. I never have false alarms as mine is configured to high. I only get alarm when I should. I do not recommend competition mode unless you fly comp.
>
> Ramy

I have no idea what you mean when you say "mine is configured to high". In my experience, all one can do at the display is suppress one or two of the three alarm states. Competition mode preserves all three alarm states, but eliminates nuisance alarms of the type that Dan describes, which is why I made the recommendation. It's my standard mode of operation.

I don't think suppressing alarms in 'normal mode' is a good solution to this problem because it reduces warning time for all encounters, including the head on scenario under discussion. Competition mode doesn't appear to have any adverse effect on how flarm works during a head on encounter. (It would be great if a knowledgeable Flarm insider could comment on this).

best,
T8

Tango Whisky

November 18th 20, 01:16 PM

Le mercredi 18 novembre 2020 Ã* 05:11:13 UTC+1, Moshe Braner a Ã©critÂ*:

> You're saying "The pilot with the operating flarm was not injured" - as
> if it's the out of date firmware that caused the other pilot to be
> injured after bailing out?
>
> The device was disabled by the manufacturer leading to one injury and
> two lost gliders. Not causing, but contributing to the likelihood of
> that collision. For no good reason.

What's wrong with reading the manual and acting accordingly?

November 18th 20, 01:20 PM

On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 11:02:01 AM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 8:06:00 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > On 11/16/20 6:10 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > > One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware.
> > I wonder how many personal injury attorneys saw that statement...
> >
> > --
> > Dan
> > 5J
> Flarm is voluntary installation after all.
> The pilot with the operating flarm was not injured.
> The point here is not to put blame.
> Every year I hear of multiple expired firmwares, including that very same day he wasnâ€™t the only one.
> There is an awareness and confusion issue which we need to address.
> I am planning to always have the latest firmware on a USB stick with me (without my config file!) and periodically ask my buddies at the airport if they upgraded the firmware this year, if not, will upgrade it for them on the spot.
>
> Ramy

Great idea. I've gridded with numerous people in the previous two years that knowingly took off with their flarm not working. One was during a flarm mandatory event. Super annoying. Updating the firmware is far less annoying.

November 18th 20, 01:24 PM

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-6, Gregg Ballou wrote:
> Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the gliders didn't have Flarm?

There's also a lot more car crashes with seat belts these days.

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

November 18th 20, 02:18 PM

Moshe Braner wrote on 11/17/2020 8:12 PM:
> On 11/17/2020 12:01 PM, Ramy wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 8:06:00 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> On 11/16/20 6:10 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>>> One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware.
>>> I wonder how many personal injury attorneys saw that statement...
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>> Flarm is voluntary installation after all.
>> The pilot with* the operating flarm was not injured.
>> The point here is not to put blame.
>> Every year I hear of multiple expired firmwares, including that very same day he wasn’t the
>> only one.
>> There is an awareness and confusion issue which we need to address.
>> I am planning to always have the latest firmware on a USB stick with me (without my config
>> file!) and periodically ask my buddies at the airport if they upgraded the firmware this
>> year, if not, will upgrade it for them on the spot.
>>
>> Ramy
>>
>
> You're saying "The pilot with the operating flarm was not injured" - as if it's the out of date
> firmware that caused the other pilot to be injured after bailing out?
>
> The device was disabled by the manufacturer leading to one injury and two lost gliders.* Not
> causing, but contributing to the likelihood of that collision.* For no good reason.

How long should a unit be allowed to go beyond a year without updating? one month? One year? 10
years? You are suggesting that units with newer versions must recognize the version of other
Flarms and compensate for their reduced functionality, giving us a system that is not operating
as well as it could - which reduces our safety.

Eventually, older versions must be updated. You accept this when you install it, and it can
easily be part of your annual inspection. If you have a Flarm compatible display, it will
announce the need for the update; if you choose a non-compatible display, it is your
responsibility to remember when to update. This is no different than expecting pilots to update
their charts and check for NOTAMS.

Perhaps every Flarm unit should have a loud, annoying buzzer that activates at the end of the
first flight with outdated firmware :^) In the meantime, Ramy's "Johnny Appleseed" approach
and reminders at contests and camps are worthwhile efforts.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Martin Gregorie[_6_]

November 18th 20, 02:27 PM

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 05:24:27 -0800, Me wrote:

> On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-6, Gregg Ballou wrote:
>> Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the
>> gliders didn't have Flarm?
>
> There's also a lot more car crashes with seat belts these days.

Seat belts don't warn the driver of possible car crashes - they only make
them more survivable.

FLARM is not remotely equivalent to a seat-belt.

--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Moshe Braner

November 18th 20, 02:52 PM

On 11/18/2020 9:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/17/2020 8:12 PM:
>> ...
>
> How long should a unit be allowed to go beyond a year without updating?
> one month? One year? 10 years? You are suggesting that units with newer
> versions must recognize the version of other Flarms and compensate for
> their reduced functionality, giving us a system that is not operating as
> well as it could - which reduces our safety.
>
> Eventually, older versions must be updated. You accept this when you
> install it, and it can easily be part of your annual inspection. If you
> have a Flarm compatible display, it will announce the need for the
> update; if you choose a non-compatible display, it is your
> responsibility to remember when to update. This is no different than
> expecting pilots to update their charts and check for NOTAMS.
>
> Perhaps every Flarm unit should have a loud, annoying buzzer that
> activates at the end of the first flight with outdated firmware :^)Â* In
> the meantime, Ramy's "Johnny Appleseed" approach and reminders at
> contests and camps are worthwhile efforts.

AFAIK, the FLARM units transmit position reports in the blind, and there
is no reason they should stop doing that if the firmware is old. On the
receiving side, they need to interpret the data packets that come in.
As long as they can understand those packets, they should use them.

As I mentioned in my other posting, at any given moment some
properly-updated FLARM units have firmware that is up to a year older
than others. Perhaps even a larger gap, since when you "update" it you
get some version of the firmware from the FLARM web site, that is
already some months old. Last spring we were told to use an older
version 6.8.x for PowerFLARM since the latest version 7.x had some bug.

And my guess (would love to hear from those who really know) is that the
data packets themselves have not changed in some years, even as the
algorithms the unit uses to predict which ones represent a collision
hazard have improved. Yet another reason why a unit with older firmware
should keep on operating.

Of course one should do the firmware updates, but what upsets me is the
unit refusing to operate at all if you don't. Like I said, it should
instead give some sort of semi-annoying reminder, like an occasional sound.

Ramy[_2_]

November 18th 20, 03:23 PM

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 6:51:21 AM UTC-8, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 11/18/2020 9:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Moshe Braner wrote on 11/17/2020 8:12 PM:
> >> ...
> >
> > How long should a unit be allowed to go beyond a year without updating?
> > one month? One year? 10 years? You are suggesting that units with newer
> > versions must recognize the version of other Flarms and compensate for
> > their reduced functionality, giving us a system that is not operating as
> > well as it could - which reduces our safety.
> >
> > Eventually, older versions must be updated. You accept this when you
> > install it, and it can easily be part of your annual inspection. If you
> > have a Flarm compatible display, it will announce the need for the
> > update; if you choose a non-compatible display, it is your
> > responsibility to remember when to update. This is no different than
> > expecting pilots to update their charts and check for NOTAMS.
> >
> > Perhaps every Flarm unit should have a loud, annoying buzzer that
> > activates at the end of the first flight with outdated firmware :^) In
> > the meantime, Ramy's "Johnny Appleseed" approach and reminders at
> > contests and camps are worthwhile efforts.
> AFAIK, the FLARM units transmit position reports in the blind, and there
> is no reason they should stop doing that if the firmware is old. On the
> receiving side, they need to interpret the data packets that come in.
> As long as they can understand those packets, they should use them.
>
> As I mentioned in my other posting, at any given moment some
> properly-updated FLARM units have firmware that is up to a year older
> than others. Perhaps even a larger gap, since when you "update" it you
> get some version of the firmware from the FLARM web site, that is
> already some months old. Last spring we were told to use an older
> version 6.8.x for PowerFLARM since the latest version 7.x had some bug.
>
> And my guess (would love to hear from those who really know) is that the
> data packets themselves have not changed in some years, even as the
> algorithms the unit uses to predict which ones represent a collision
> hazard have improved. Yet another reason why a unit with older firmware
> should keep on operating.
>
> Of course one should do the firmware updates, but what upsets me is the
> unit refusing to operate at all if you don't. Like I said, it should
> instead give some sort of semi-annoying reminder, like an occasional sound.

I requested the same from Flarm team. I am hoping they will come up with a better solution.

Ramy

waremark

November 18th 20, 03:30 PM

> And my guess (would love to hear from those who really know) is that the
> data packets themselves have not changed in some years, even as the
> algorithms the unit uses to predict which ones represent a collision
> hazard have improved. Yet another reason why a unit with older firmware
> should keep on operating.
>
> Of course one should do the firmware updates, but what upsets me is the
> unit refusing to operate at all if you don't. Like I said, it should
> instead give some sort of semi-annoying reminder, like an occasional sound.

Does anyone know for sure what happens between a recently updated Flarm and one which has not been updated? It is quite possible that the newer firmware unit does deal with info from the older firmware unit. What Flarm have guaranteed is that firmware will be compatible forwards and backwards at least 12 months - I think that is different from saying that you will definitely not benefit from a warning if there is a longer firmware age difference. They introduced this system to replace a far worse system where there was no forwards and backwards capability, and they asked everyone to upgrade within a one month period.

Ramy[_2_]

November 18th 20, 03:51 PM

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 4:35:39 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:17:51 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:47:43 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 12:37:32 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > My biggest complaint with Flarm is that ,when flying along with a friend
> > > > a hundred or so yards apart, co-altitude and not in any danger of a
> > > > collision, the thing screams continuously about an imminent threat.
> > > Add to your configuration file:
> > >
> > > # set competition mode (ON = 2, OFF = 0)
> > > $PFLAC,S,CFLAGS,2
> > >
> > > Enjoy. You're welcome. Read flarm docs for details.
> > >
> > > T8
> > Many flarm displays allows you to configure low, medium, high for collision. I never have false alarms as mine is configured to high. I only get alarm when I should. I do not recommend competition mode unless you fly comp..
> >
> > Ramy
> I have no idea what you mean when you say "mine is configured to high". In my experience, all one can do at the display is suppress one or two of the three alarm states. Competition mode preserves all three alarm states, but eliminates nuisance alarms of the type that Dan describes, which is why I made the recommendation. It's my standard mode of operation.
>
> I don't think suppressing alarms in 'normal mode' is a good solution to this problem because it reduces warning time for all encounters, including the head on scenario under discussion. Competition mode doesn't appear to have any adverse effect on how flarm works during a head on encounter. (It would be great if a knowledgeable Flarm insider could comment on this).
>
> best,
> T8
I was referring to a setting in the flarm display. LXNAV has low/mid/high warning level.
Dan was describing continuous alarms, so I donâ€™t believe competition mode will change that. I believe competition mode only reduces flarm data on the screen and has no impact on alarms.
From my experience when people complain of too many alarms, it is from one of these reasons:
1- The warning level is set to Low which gives loud alarm for distance targets. Changing it to mid or high will reduce those alarms.
2- mode C alarm is on, resulting in continues alarm when you fly near or thermaling with someone
You should disable mode C and select traffic alert only so you will get notification but not alarm.

Ramy

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

November 18th 20, 03:57 PM

Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 6:27 AM:
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 05:24:27 -0800, Me wrote:
>
>> On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-6, Gregg Ballou wrote:
>>> Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the
>>> gliders didn't have Flarm?
>>
>> There's also a lot more car crashes with seat belts these days.
>
> Seat belts don't warn the driver of possible car crashes - they only make
> them more survivable.
>
> FLARM is not remotely equivalent to a seat-belt.

Seat belts - and Flarm - make their respective activities (driving and flying) more survivable,
though by different means. In aircraft, seat belts often have expiry dates, and need "firmware"
updates. So, I think they are equivalent in the sense they are both safety devices.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Tango Eight

November 18th 20, 04:05 PM

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 10:51:35 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 4:35:39 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:17:51 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:47:43 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 12:37:32 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > > My biggest complaint with Flarm is that ,when flying along with a friend
> > > > > a hundred or so yards apart, co-altitude and not in any danger of a
> > > > > collision, the thing screams continuously about an imminent threat.
> > > > Add to your configuration file:
> > > >
> > > > # set competition mode (ON = 2, OFF = 0)
> > > > $PFLAC,S,CFLAGS,2
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy. You're welcome. Read flarm docs for details.
> > > >
> > > > T8
> > > Many flarm displays allows you to configure low, medium, high for collision. I never have false alarms as mine is configured to high. I only get alarm when I should. I do not recommend competition mode unless you fly comp.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> > I have no idea what you mean when you say "mine is configured to high". In my experience, all one can do at the display is suppress one or two of the three alarm states. Competition mode preserves all three alarm states, but eliminates nuisance alarms of the type that Dan describes, which is why I made the recommendation. It's my standard mode of operation.
> >
> > I don't think suppressing alarms in 'normal mode' is a good solution to this problem because it reduces warning time for all encounters, including the head on scenario under discussion. Competition mode doesn't appear to have any adverse effect on how flarm works during a head on encounter. (It would be great if a knowledgeable Flarm insider could comment on this).
> >
> > best,
> > T8
> I was referring to a setting in the flarm display. LXNAV has low/mid/high warning level.
> Dan was describing continuous alarms, so I donâ€™t believe competition mode will change that. I believe competition mode only reduces flarm data on the screen and has no impact on alarms.
> From my experience when people complain of too many alarms, it is from one of these reasons:
> 1- The warning level is set to Low which gives loud alarm for distance targets. Changing it to mid or high will reduce those alarms.
> 2- mode C alarm is on, resulting in continues alarm when you fly near or thermaling with someone
> You should disable mode C and select traffic alert only so you will get notification but not alarm.
>
> Ramy

Hi Ramy,

I think you are confusing competition mode with stealth mode, at least in part. They are completely different. The only purpose of competition mode is to suppress nuisance alarms when flying in formation (smooth gaggle flying is formation flying).

Suppressing some of the alerts at the display level has inherent disadvantages (already covered), so I recommend not doing this.

best,
T8

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

November 18th 20, 04:16 PM

Moshe Braner wrote on 11/18/2020 6:52 AM:
> On 11/18/2020 9:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Moshe Braner wrote on 11/17/2020 8:12 PM:
>>> ...
>>
>> How long should a unit be allowed to go beyond a year without updating? one month? One year?
>> 10 years? You are suggesting that units with newer versions must recognize the version of
>> other Flarms and compensate for their reduced functionality, giving us a system that is not
>> operating as well as it could - which reduces our safety.
>>
>> Eventually, older versions must be updated. You accept this when you install it, and it can
>> easily be part of your annual inspection. If you have a Flarm compatible display, it will
>> announce the need for the update; if you choose a non-compatible display, it is your
>> responsibility to remember when to update. This is no different than expecting pilots to
>> update their charts and check for NOTAMS.
>>
>> Perhaps every Flarm unit should have a loud, annoying buzzer that activates at the end of the
>> first flight with outdated firmware :^)* In the meantime, Ramy's "Johnny Appleseed" approach
>> and reminders at contests and camps are worthwhile efforts.
>
> AFAIK, the FLARM units transmit position reports in the blind, and there is no reason they
> should stop doing that if the firmware is old.* On the receiving side, they need to interpret
> the data packets that come in. As long as they can understand those packets, they should use them.
>
> As I mentioned in my other posting, at any given moment some properly-updated FLARM units have
> firmware that is up to a year older than others.* Perhaps even a larger gap, since when you
> "update" it you get some version of the firmware from the FLARM web site, that is already some
> months old.* Last spring we were told to use an older version 6.8.x for PowerFLARM since the
> latest version 7.x had some bug.
>
> And my guess (would love to hear from those who really know) is that the data packets
> themselves have not changed in some years, even as the algorithms the unit uses to predict
> which ones represent a collision hazard have improved.* Yet another reason why a unit with
> older firmware should keep on operating.
>
> Of course one should do the firmware updates, but what upsets me is the unit refusing to
> operate at all if you don't.* Like I said, it should instead give some sort of semi-annoying
> reminder, like an occasional sound.

My understanding is they broadcast a projected flight path for the glider in which they are
installed. The receiving Flarm calculates the collision potential based on that projected
flight path, and the one it projects for it's own glider. Flarm is not just a simple position
reporter, and it depends on both units using the same GPS data in the same way, and making
calculations the same way.

Would you excuse a pilot that does not update his database, then uses the wrong CTAF when
landing at an airport? I think the requirement for a yearly update is reasonable, the manual
states that requirement, and the unit will announce the problem on a compatible display.

A buzzer to warn the pilot might help; possibly, the Flarm could continue to broadcast it's
position and expired status, then receiving Flarms could show a big red "X" so other pilots
know they are flying near an expired Flarm. Later, they can bring their USB drives to the pilot
and encourage him to update.

I still wonder how long you think a unit should operate without updates.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Dan Marotta

November 18th 20, 04:22 PM

On 11/17/20 9:04 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> When the battery in my smoke alarm gets weak, it emits an occasional
> short beep to remind me.

....And why, pray tell, does that always occur at 0230?

Sorry... Off topic.

--
Dan
5J

Darren Braun

November 18th 20, 04:26 PM

I think the pflarm guys/gals had a good reason for setting a policy for updates. They probably thought of the case where the thing continues to work "barely good enough" and knew some lazy pilots would just leave it that way forever. That's no good either.
As we are starting to see with other devices the best solution would have been to have builit-in wifi and auto updates. Much like your computer... but then that adds cost and a whole other set of complaints.
Darren

Dan Marotta

November 18th 20, 04:27 PM

On 11/18/20 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> If you have a Flarm compatible display, it will announce the need for
> the update;

Well... I've never seen this. Does that mean that I've been good at
keeping my Flarm up to date?

BTW, last night I emailed the latest firmware and my config file with
T8's suggestion to the hangar. I'll make the updates before my next flight.

--
Dan
5J

Ramy[_2_]

November 18th 20, 04:33 PM

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 8:05:23 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 10:51:35 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 4:35:39 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:17:51 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:47:43 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 12:37:32 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > > > My biggest complaint with Flarm is that ,when flying along with a friend
> > > > > > a hundred or so yards apart, co-altitude and not in any danger of a
> > > > > > collision, the thing screams continuously about an imminent threat.
> > > > > Add to your configuration file:
> > > > >
> > > > > # set competition mode (ON = 2, OFF = 0)
> > > > > $PFLAC,S,CFLAGS,2
> > > > >
> > > > > Enjoy. You're welcome. Read flarm docs for details.
> > > > >
> > > > > T8
> > > > Many flarm displays allows you to configure low, medium, high for collision. I never have false alarms as mine is configured to high. I only get alarm when I should. I do not recommend competition mode unless you fly comp.
> > > >
> > > > Ramy
> > > I have no idea what you mean when you say "mine is configured to high". In my experience, all one can do at the display is suppress one or two of the three alarm states. Competition mode preserves all three alarm states, but eliminates nuisance alarms of the type that Dan describes, which is why I made the recommendation. It's my standard mode of operation.
> > >
> > > I don't think suppressing alarms in 'normal mode' is a good solution to this problem because it reduces warning time for all encounters, including the head on scenario under discussion. Competition mode doesn't appear to have any adverse effect on how flarm works during a head on encounter. (It would be great if a knowledgeable Flarm insider could comment on this).
> > >
> > > best,
> > > T8
> > I was referring to a setting in the flarm display. LXNAV has low/mid/high warning level.
> > Dan was describing continuous alarms, so I donâ€™t believe competition mode will change that. I believe competition mode only reduces flarm data on the screen and has no impact on alarms.
> > From my experience when people complain of too many alarms, it is from one of these reasons:
> > 1- The warning level is set to Low which gives loud alarm for distance targets. Changing it to mid or high will reduce those alarms.
> > 2- mode C alarm is on, resulting in continues alarm when you fly near or thermaling with someone
> > You should disable mode C and select traffic alert only so you will get notification but not alarm.
> >
> > Ramy
> Hi Ramy,
>
> I think you are confusing competition mode with stealth mode, at least in part. They are completely different. The only purpose of competition mode is to suppress nuisance alarms when flying in formation (smooth gaggle flying is formation flying).
>
> Suppressing some of the alerts at the display level has inherent disadvantages (already covered), so I recommend not doing this.
>
> best,
> T8

I didnâ€™t try competition mode but this is what the LX9000 says about competition mode:
â€œ Competition mode is intended only for competitions. If this mode is enabled the pilot will not be able to see any FLARM data on the navigational screens. The competition mode status is recorded in the IGC file and can be checked during scoring. Range of view is also limited.â€
It doesnâ€™t mention anything about reducing alarms.
Perhaps it is implemented differently in different displays, which will be bad.
I did however tried the low alarm setting , and it was giving me alarms for gliders which were hundreds of feet below, so reduced it to mid or high (canâ€™t recall which).

Ramy

Dan Marotta

November 18th 20, 04:34 PM

On 11/18/20 8:51 AM, Ramy wrote:
> 2- mode C alarm is on, resulting in continues alarm when you fly near or thermaling with someone

That's it!

My friend had only a Mode 3/A transponder with Mode C. He now has a
Flarm so the problem should have been overtaken by events. We'll see
next season.

--
Dan
5J

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

November 18th 20, 05:01 PM

Dan Marotta wrote on 11/18/2020 8:22 AM:
> On 11/17/20 9:04 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
>> When the battery in my smoke alarm gets weak, it emits an occasional short beep to remind me.
>
> ....And why, pray tell, does that always occur at 0230?
>
> Sorry...* Off topic.
>
The cooler night time temperature in the house reduces the battery voltage, and the chirps begin...

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

November 18th 20, 05:05 PM

Dan Marotta wrote on 11/18/2020 8:27 AM:
> On 11/18/20 7:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> If you have a Flarm compatible display, it will announce the need for the update;
>
> Well...* I've never seen this.* Does that mean that I've been good at keeping my Flarm up to date?
>
> BTW, last night I emailed the latest firmware and my config file with T8's suggestion to the
> hangar.* I'll make the updates before my next flight.
>
I haven't seen it, either, but then, I always update before the first flight of the year, which
is always in March.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Ramy[_2_]

November 18th 20, 05:09 PM

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 8:34:24 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 11/18/20 8:51 AM, Ramy wrote:
> > 2- mode C alarm is on, resulting in continues alarm when you fly near or thermaling with someone
> That's it!
>
> My friend had only a Mode 3/A transponder with Mode C. He now has a
> Flarm so the problem should have been overtaken by events. We'll see
> next season.
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J
Dan, even if he now has flarm I believe you will continue receiving his Mode C as well. If you have LX9000 You may want to disable the Mode C alarm and only select the mode C traffic alert option which will only give you a voice alert. Not sure how this is implemented in other displays.

Ramy

Dan Marotta

November 18th 20, 05:22 PM

On 11/18/20 10:09 AM, Ramy wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 8:34:24 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> On 11/18/20 8:51 AM, Ramy wrote:
>>> 2- mode C alarm is on, resulting in continues alarm when you fly near or thermaling with someone
>> That's it!
>>
>> My friend had only a Mode 3/A transponder with Mode C. He now has a
>> Flarm so the problem should have been overtaken by events. We'll see
>> next season.
>>
>> --
>> Dan
>> 5J
> Dan, even if he now has flarm I believe you will continue receiving his Mode C as well. If you have LX9000 You may want to disable the Mode C alarm and only select the mode C traffic alert option which will only give you a voice alert. Not sure how this is implemented in other displays.
>
> Ramy
>
Thanks Ramy,

I have ClearNav, but I WILL disable the Mode C alarm to avoid the issue
with any others. I'll still get the circle on the display.

--
Dan
5J

Tango Eight

November 18th 20, 05:33 PM

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 11:33:48 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 8:05:23 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 10:51:35 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 4:35:39 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:17:51 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:47:43 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 12:37:32 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > > > > My biggest complaint with Flarm is that ,when flying along with a friend
> > > > > > > a hundred or so yards apart, co-altitude and not in any danger of a
> > > > > > > collision, the thing screams continuously about an imminent threat.
> > > > > > Add to your configuration file:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > # set competition mode (ON = 2, OFF = 0)
> > > > > > $PFLAC,S,CFLAGS,2
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Enjoy. You're welcome. Read flarm docs for details.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > T8
> > > > > Many flarm displays allows you to configure low, medium, high for collision. I never have false alarms as mine is configured to high. I only get alarm when I should. I do not recommend competition mode unless you fly comp.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ramy
> > > > I have no idea what you mean when you say "mine is configured to high". In my experience, all one can do at the display is suppress one or two of the three alarm states. Competition mode preserves all three alarm states, but eliminates nuisance alarms of the type that Dan describes, which is why I made the recommendation. It's my standard mode of operation.
> > > >
> > > > I don't think suppressing alarms in 'normal mode' is a good solution to this problem because it reduces warning time for all encounters, including the head on scenario under discussion. Competition mode doesn't appear to have any adverse effect on how flarm works during a head on encounter. (It would be great if a knowledgeable Flarm insider could comment on this).
> > > >
> > > > best,
> > > > T8
> > > I was referring to a setting in the flarm display. LXNAV has low/mid/high warning level.
> > > Dan was describing continuous alarms, so I donâ€™t believe competition mode will change that. I believe competition mode only reduces flarm data on the screen and has no impact on alarms.
> > > From my experience when people complain of too many alarms, it is from one of these reasons:
> > > 1- The warning level is set to Low which gives loud alarm for distance targets. Changing it to mid or high will reduce those alarms.
> > > 2- mode C alarm is on, resulting in continues alarm when you fly near or thermaling with someone
> > > You should disable mode C and select traffic alert only so you will get notification but not alarm.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> > Hi Ramy,
> >
> > I think you are confusing competition mode with stealth mode, at least in part. They are completely different. The only purpose of competition mode is to suppress nuisance alarms when flying in formation (smooth gaggle flying is formation flying).
> >
> > Suppressing some of the alerts at the display level has inherent disadvantages (already covered), so I recommend not doing this.
> >
> > best,
> > T8
> I didnâ€™t try competition mode but this is what the LX9000 says about competition mode:
> â€œ Competition mode is intended only for competitions. If this mode is enabled the pilot will not be able to see any FLARM data on the navigational screens. The competition mode status is recorded in the IGC file and can be checked during scoring. Range of view is also limited.â€
> It doesnâ€™t mention anything about reducing alarms.
> Perhaps it is implemented differently in different displays, which will be bad.
> I did however tried the low alarm setting , and it was giving me alarms for gliders which were hundreds of feet below, so reduced it to mid or high (canâ€™t recall which).
>
> Ramy

That explanation of competition mode is simply wrong. It's clearly confused with stealth mode.

T8

kinsell

November 18th 20, 07:43 PM

On 11/17/20 10:37 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

>
> I'd also like to have the ability to transmit on both antennae.Â* Can
> anyone explain why the US FCC prohibits that capability?Â* Having a
> carbon fuselage, I can receive transmitters from below via an external
> blade antenna but they can't receive my glare shield mounted "A" antenna.
>

I have to assume it's to limit the radiated energy to a very low level.
The transmit power is only 18 mw for the core, 10 mw for the portable in
the U.S. version.

It uses unlicensed radio spectrum and must use very low power to make it
legal. Not really a good solution for aircraft that are mostly carbon
fiber these days, used in cockpits that are rife with EMI problems, and
installed and maintained by amateurs.

-Dave

Moshe Braner

November 18th 20, 09:15 PM

On 11/18/2020 10:57 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 6:27 AM:
>> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 05:24:27 -0800, Me wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-6, Gregg Ballou wrote:
>>>> Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the
>>>> gliders didn't have Flarm?
>>>
>>> There's also a lot more car crashes with seat belts these days.
>>
>> Seat belts don't warn the driver of possible car crashes - they only make
>> them more survivable.
>>
>> FLARM is not remotely equivalent to a seat-belt.
>
> Seat belts - and Flarm - make their respective activities (driving and
> flying) more survivable, though by different means. In aircraft, seat
> belts often have expiry dates, and need "firmware" updates. So, I think
> they are equivalent in the sense they are both safety devices.
>

Very very different:

Old seat belts don't self-destruct on a schedule (although they do
weaken with age). If somebody doesn't replace them on time they still
help as best as they can. I wish FLARM would do the same with old firmware.

But more importantly, as noted above, FLARM is a preventative device,
not a survivability aid like seatbelts. It is more like the gizmos some
cars have now that warn you about getting too close to something behind
you when you back up. I'm sure those get software updates sometimes,
but I don't expect they stop working just because the software is old.

John Galloway[_2_]

November 18th 20, 10:02 PM

On Wednesday, 18 November 2020 at 21:14:01 UTC, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 11/18/2020 10:57 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 6:27 AM:
> >> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 05:24:27 -0800, Me wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-6, Gregg Ballou wrote:
> >>>> Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the
> >>>> gliders didn't have Flarm?
> >>>
> >>> There's also a lot more car crashes with seat belts these days.
> >>
> >> Seat belts don't warn the driver of possible car crashes - they only make
> >> them more survivable.
> >>
> >> FLARM is not remotely equivalent to a seat-belt.
> >
> > Seat belts - and Flarm - make their respective activities (driving and
> > flying) more survivable, though by different means. In aircraft, seat
> > belts often have expiry dates, and need "firmware" updates. So, I think
> > they are equivalent in the sense they are both safety devices.
> >
> Very very different:
>
> Old seat belts don't self-destruct on a schedule (although they do
> weaken with age). If somebody doesn't replace them on time they still
> help as best as they can. I wish FLARM would do the same with old firmware.
>
> But more importantly, as noted above, FLARM is a preventative device,
> not a survivability aid like seatbelts. It is more like the gizmos some
> cars have now that warn you about getting too close to something behind
> you when you back up. I'm sure those get software updates sometimes,
> but I don't expect they stop working just because the software is old.

You buy anything, you have to know how it works. It is made very clear by Flarm what the update policy has been since 2015, which is to allow for developments to be introduced without every update having to be compatible with every other very old version that other people haven't bothered to update. See:

https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/

https://support.flarm.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019573894-How-does-the-annual-update-cycle-relate-to-the-firmware-expiration-date-

Each major update actually is valid for longer than a year from its release so that at any time during the life of that update different owners can begin their annual free update cycle. In EASA land it should be formally included in the glider AMP (annual maintenance program). If an owner can't manage doing that or getting it done for him what else is he not capable of?

[email protected]

November 18th 20, 10:30 PM

Of course every pilot should make sure that his FLARM is working before each season and before each takeoff.

Of course the FLARM team should encourage all pilots to upgrade to the latest firmware.

The question is how should the FLARM team do that? A graceful degradation in performance coupled with annoying beeps, as some have suggested, is surely preferable to ceasing to function altogether, especially given that lives may be at stake and not just the lives of those who failed to upgrade their firmware, but also the lives of those who's FLARM firmware is up-to-date, but who may end up colliding with someone who's FLARM is disabled because the firmware is out of date.

Branko
XYU

Richard Pfiffner[_2_]

November 18th 20, 11:40 PM

According to Flarm the New Fusion transmits and receives on both A and B Flarm Antennas.

http://www.craggyaero.com/fusion.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Martin Gregorie[_6_]

November 18th 20, 11:53 PM

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:30:21 -0800, wrote:

> The question is how should the FLARM team do that? A graceful
> degradation in performance coupled with annoying beeps, as some have
> suggested, is surely preferable to ceasing to function altogether,
> especially given that lives may be at stake and not just the lives of
> those who failed to upgrade their firmware, but also the lives of those
> who's FLARM firmware is up-to-date, but who may end up colliding with
> someone who's FLARM is disabled because the firmware is out of date.
>
Good point: you really need to read the manual for your FLARM unit AND
the display to understand what should appear at start-up because thats
when it will tell you about faults and out of date software. You need to
read instructions for both due to the large number of different displays
that can be used. The way my FLARM, a RedBox with the 40mm clockface LED
display, indicates a fault will be very different from what another Red
Box with an LX or Butterfly OLED display, a PowerFlarm, or what the FLARM
built into an LX Nav vario is likely to show.

I'd suggest that, since the FLARM team can't know what display is
connected, then the FLARM team can't do anything much different from what
they do now to indicate faults, i.e. send the fault code to the display
and let that decide how the format and display it, so really is up to the
pilot to know how their unit says 'FAULT!' and understand what it means.

I generally watch my FLARM come up when its powered on, at least long
enough to see the LED test flash. I also look at it as part of pre-launch
checks and will not launch without Power and GPS showing steady green, Tx
flashing green and everything else off: this is what mine should be
showing when it is stationary on the ground.

--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

November 19th 20, 01:00 AM

Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 3:53 PM:
> I generally watch my FLARM come up when its powered on, at least long
> enough to see the LED test flash. I also look at it as part of pre-launch
> checks and will not launch without Power and GPS showing steady green, Tx
> flashing green and everything else off: this is what mine should be
> showing when it is stationary on the ground.

I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before flying, and before
takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a problem and should determine what it is.

But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider ready for the 1st flight
of the season. It's not that hard - write yourself notes if you can't remember.

And then, check it on the ground before you launch - can you see the other gliders around you,
that are also getting ready, and have their panel turned on?

Can't depend on yourself to do those things? Get a compatible display that will show the
expiration situation, and learn how to use it!

It's not hard to avoid an expired firmware. You can still decide to fly with an expired Flarm,
but you have multiple opportunities to do the right thing.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

BobWa43

November 19th 20, 01:46 AM

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:19:41 PM UTC-5, Guy Acheson wrote:
> OK...I am ready to get flamed.
> I have flown with a PowerFlarm for several years.
> False alarms. Searching frantically for aircraft that I just never see or do not exist.
> Flying with a group, all with Flarm, and several do not show on my screen because they have carbon fuselages and antennas that are blocked.
> Flying head to head with another Flarm aircraft and no display.
> Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens when I was not flying...multiple times!
> The programing and configuration issues are just too much.
> My system is updated and confirmed with and by experts.
> But, most are not.
> For me, it has not been a dependable, reliable, predictable piece of equipment.
> My experiences in France have been much better.
> My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected by aircraft mechanics.
> Here in the USA...the Flarm system mostly increases my anxiety and complicates my flying day.

Martin Gregorie[_6_]

November 19th 20, 01:48 AM

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:00:53 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before
> flying, and before takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a
> problem and should determine what it is.
>
Is that a difference between FLARM and PowerFlarm?

I've never used Power FLARM, but I don't recall any FLARM showing traffic
when stationary: even waiting on the second winch queue I don't recall
the glider on the other cable showing as it launched nor a tow taking off
on the far side of the field. Or, for that matter, landing gliders
triggering it when I'm in the launch queue, so in front of and 100-200m
to one side of the landing glider. Then again, none of these should
trigger an alarm since a collision is not possible in any of these cases
is a collision possible. OTOH, even a taxiing tug 2-300m away can trigger
an alarm while I'm rolling up to the launch point after landing: very
disconcerting it is too when it happens!

> But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider
> ready for the 1st flight of the season. It's not that hard - write
> yourself notes if you can't remember.
>
Couldn't agree more. I always used to do that and now its a mandatory
item on the BGA-approved Annuals check-list.

I also like to run an early flight from a new season through the FLARM
trace analyser to check the range in all directions and make sure its
working correctly and the antenna didn't get displaced during the last
Annual.

--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

BobWa43

November 19th 20, 01:51 AM

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

November 19th 20, 02:44 AM

Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 5:48 PM:
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:00:53 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>> I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before
>> flying, and before takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a
>> problem and should determine what it is.
>>
> Is that a difference between FLARM and PowerFlarm?
>
> I've never used Power FLARM, but I don't recall any FLARM showing traffic
> when stationary: even waiting on the second winch queue I don't recall
> the glider on the other cable showing as it launched nor a tow taking off
> on the far side of the field. Or, for that matter, landing gliders
> triggering it when I'm in the launch queue, so in front of and 100-200m
> to one side of the landing glider. Then again, none of these should
> trigger an alarm since a collision is not possible in any of these cases
> is a collision possible. OTOH, even a taxiing tug 2-300m away can trigger
> an alarm while I'm rolling up to the launch point after landing: very
> disconcerting it is too when it happens!
>
>> But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider
>> ready for the 1st flight of the season. It's not that hard - write
>> yourself notes if you can't remember.
>>
> Couldn't agree more. I always used to do that and now its a mandatory
> item on the BGA-approved Annuals check-list.
>
> I also like to run an early flight from a new season through the FLARM
> trace analyser to check the range in all directions and make sure its
> working correctly and the antenna didn't get displaced during the last
> Annual.

I tend to use Flarm interchangeably with PowerFlarm, but as a US pilot, PowerFlarm is what I
have, and it does show the position of any PowerFlarm equipped glider within range, even if
both gliders are stationary on the ground. It doesn't generate collision alarms it that situation.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Martin Gregorie[_6_]

November 19th 20, 03:23 AM

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:44:11 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 5:48 PM:
>> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:00:53 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>
>>> I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before
>>> flying, and before takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a
>>> problem and should determine what it is.
>>>
>> Is that a difference between FLARM and PowerFlarm?
>>
>> I've never used Power FLARM, but I don't recall any FLARM showing
>> traffic when stationary: even waiting on the second winch queue I don't
>> recall the glider on the other cable showing as it launched nor a tow
>> taking off on the far side of the field. Or, for that matter, landing
>> gliders triggering it when I'm in the launch queue, so in front of and
>> 100-200m to one side of the landing glider. Then again, none of these
>> should trigger an alarm since a collision is not possible in any of
>> these cases is a collision possible. OTOH, even a taxiing tug 2-300m
>> away can trigger an alarm while I'm rolling up to the launch point
>> after landing: very disconcerting it is too when it happens!
>>
>>> But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider
>>> ready for the 1st flight of the season. It's not that hard - write
>>> yourself notes if you can't remember.
>>>
>> Couldn't agree more. I always used to do that and now its a mandatory
>> item on the BGA-approved Annuals check-list.
>>
>> I also like to run an early flight from a new season through the FLARM
>> trace analyser to check the range in all directions and make sure its
>> working correctly and the antenna didn't get displaced during the last
>> Annual.
>
> I tend to use Flarm interchangeably with PowerFlarm, but as a US pilot,
> PowerFlarm is what I have, and it does show the position of any
> PowerFlarm equipped glider within range, even if both gliders are
> stationary on the ground. It doesn't generate collision alarms it that
> situation.

I should have added that I'm not surprised: to a first approximation on a
gliding club field nothing with FLARM fitted moves unless its taking off,
landing or is a tug taxiing, so there's little or no benefit in a
stationery glider flagging up moving aircraft for its pilot.

OTOH I can see that it would be useful for a Power Flarm to do so,
especially one with ADS-B in since, on a field that is also used by
powered aircraft, it would be able to flag up most? all? aircraft
movements, especially those on approach while you're waiting at the hold
point.

--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Paul Ruskin[_2_]

November 19th 20, 09:58 AM

It's a function of the display, rather than what type of Flarm, Martin.

If you have a display that only shows alarms, you won't see anything on the ground when you're on the ground. On the other hand, if you have a traffic display, you'll see it all.

Both Flarm and PowerFlarm send out both alarms and traffic data. Some displays just show the alarms.

Paul

On Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 3:23:55 AM UTC, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:44:11 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> > Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 5:48 PM:
> >> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:00:53 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>
> >>> I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before
> >>> flying, and before takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a
> >>> problem and should determine what it is.
> >>>
> >> Is that a difference between FLARM and PowerFlarm?
> >>
> >> I've never used Power FLARM, but I don't recall any FLARM showing
> >> traffic when stationary: even waiting on the second winch queue I don't
> >> recall the glider on the other cable showing as it launched nor a tow
> >> taking off on the far side of the field. Or, for that matter, landing
> >> gliders triggering it when I'm in the launch queue, so in front of and
> >> 100-200m to one side of the landing glider. Then again, none of these
> >> should trigger an alarm since a collision is not possible in any of
> >> these cases is a collision possible. OTOH, even a taxiing tug 2-300m
> >> away can trigger an alarm while I'm rolling up to the launch point
> >> after landing: very disconcerting it is too when it happens!
> >>
> >>> But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider
> >>> ready for the 1st flight of the season. It's not that hard - write
> >>> yourself notes if you can't remember.
> >>>
> >> Couldn't agree more. I always used to do that and now its a mandatory
> >> item on the BGA-approved Annuals check-list.
> >>
> >> I also like to run an early flight from a new season through the FLARM
> >> trace analyser to check the range in all directions and make sure its
> >> working correctly and the antenna didn't get displaced during the last
> >> Annual.
> >
> > I tend to use Flarm interchangeably with PowerFlarm, but as a US pilot,
> > PowerFlarm is what I have, and it does show the position of any
> > PowerFlarm equipped glider within range, even if both gliders are
> > stationary on the ground. It doesn't generate collision alarms it that
> > situation.
> I should have added that I'm not surprised: to a first approximation on a
> gliding club field nothing with FLARM fitted moves unless its taking off,
> landing or is a tug taxiing, so there's little or no benefit in a
> stationery glider flagging up moving aircraft for its pilot.
>
> OTOH I can see that it would be useful for a Power Flarm to do so,
> especially one with ADS-B in since, on a field that is also used by
> powered aircraft, it would be able to flag up most? all? aircraft
> movements, especially those on approach while you're waiting at the hold
> point.
> --
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Martin Gregorie[_6_]

November 19th 20, 12:18 PM

On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 01:58:03 -0800, Paul Ruskin wrote:

> It's a function of the display, rather than what type of Flarm, Martin.
>
> If you have a display that only shows alarms, you won't see anything on
> the ground when you're on the ground. On the other hand, if you have a
> traffic display, you'll see it all.
>
> Both Flarm and PowerFlarm send out both alarms and traffic data. Some
> displays just show the alarms.
>
Thanks, Paul. That makes sense.

--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Urban MÃ¤der

November 19th 20, 12:32 PM

Hi

Regarding annual maintenance: We have recently published a manual for that: https://www.flarm.com/ica. We hope that this clarifies some important questions and streamlines the process. Appendices A and B contain checklists that you can run through during installation or maintenance. This is a new initiative and I'm sure the document can still be improved. Feedback is thus highly appreciated.

Regarding the reports on false/nuisance warnings: There are (of course) limits to what a FLARM can do, but unless you have a large gaggle of gliders, the alarming behavior should be very reasonable. If you think something is not working (or should be improved), please do send log files of the incident (https://flarm.com/about-us/contact/). We're happy to have a look.

Best Regards
- Urban

On Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 10:58:06 AM UTC+1, Paul Ruskin wrote:
> It's a function of the display, rather than what type of Flarm, Martin.
>
> If you have a display that only shows alarms, you won't see anything on the ground when you're on the ground. On the other hand, if you have a traffic display, you'll see it all.
>
> Both Flarm and PowerFlarm send out both alarms and traffic data. Some displays just show the alarms.
>
> Paul
> On Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 3:23:55 AM UTC, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:44:11 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >
> > > Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 5:48 PM:
> > >> On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:00:53 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before
> > >>> flying, and before takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a
> > >>> problem and should determine what it is.
> > >>>
> > >> Is that a difference between FLARM and PowerFlarm?
> > >>
> > >> I've never used Power FLARM, but I don't recall any FLARM showing
> > >> traffic when stationary: even waiting on the second winch queue I don't
> > >> recall the glider on the other cable showing as it launched nor a tow
> > >> taking off on the far side of the field. Or, for that matter, landing
> > >> gliders triggering it when I'm in the launch queue, so in front of and
> > >> 100-200m to one side of the landing glider. Then again, none of these
> > >> should trigger an alarm since a collision is not possible in any of
> > >> these cases is a collision possible. OTOH, even a taxiing tug 2-300m
> > >> away can trigger an alarm while I'm rolling up to the launch point
> > >> after landing: very disconcerting it is too when it happens!
> > >>
> > >>> But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider
> > >>> ready for the 1st flight of the season. It's not that hard - write
> > >>> yourself notes if you can't remember.
> > >>>
> > >> Couldn't agree more. I always used to do that and now its a mandatory
> > >> item on the BGA-approved Annuals check-list.
> > >>
> > >> I also like to run an early flight from a new season through the FLARM
> > >> trace analyser to check the range in all directions and make sure its
> > >> working correctly and the antenna didn't get displaced during the last
> > >> Annual.
> > >
> > > I tend to use Flarm interchangeably with PowerFlarm, but as a US pilot,
> > > PowerFlarm is what I have, and it does show the position of any
> > > PowerFlarm equipped glider within range, even if both gliders are
> > > stationary on the ground. It doesn't generate collision alarms it that
> > > situation.
> > I should have added that I'm not surprised: to a first approximation on a
> > gliding club field nothing with FLARM fitted moves unless its taking off,
> > landing or is a tug taxiing, so there's little or no benefit in a
> > stationery glider flagging up moving aircraft for its pilot.
> >
> > OTOH I can see that it would be useful for a Power Flarm to do so,
> > especially one with ADS-B in since, on a field that is also used by
> > powered aircraft, it would be able to flag up most? all? aircraft
> > movements, especially those on approach while you're waiting at the hold
> > point.
> > --
> > --
> > Martin | martin at
> > Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Craig Reinholt

November 19th 20, 04:10 PM

Not to state the obvious, but please remember that the PIC is responsible for the proper working of all instruments in the aircraft. IF the PowerFLARM is not operative because of a pilot neglecting their duty to update the software per the manufacturer mandate, point the responsibility finger at the pilot.

91.213 Inoperative instruments and equipment.
(d) Except for operations conducted in accordance with paragraph (a) or (c) of this section, a person may takeoff an aircraft in operations conducted under this part with inoperative instruments and equipment without an approved Minimum Equipment List provided -
(3) The inoperative instruments and equipment are -
(i) Removed from the aircraft, the cockpit control placarded, and the maintenance recorded in accordance with Â§ 43.9 of this chapter; or
(ii) Deactivated and placarded â€œInoperative.â€ If deactivation of the inoperative instrument or equipment involves maintenance, it must be accomplished and recorded in accordance with part 43 of this chapter; and
(4) A determination is made by a pilot, who is certificated and appropriately rated under part 61 of this chapter, or by a person, who is certificated and appropriately rated to perform maintenance on the aircraft, that the inoperative instrument or equipment does not constitute a hazard to the aircraft.

November 19th 20, 04:19 PM

Le mercredi 18 novembre 2020 Ã* 00:00:08 UTC+1, Dave Walsh a Ã©critÂ*:
> "My experiences in France have been much better.
> My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected
> by aircraft mechanics"
> I'd be very surprised if the above was strictly correct for gliders in the
>
> French Alps; generally it's the pilots who ensure they have a working
> system. The important difference is that a working Flarm is MANDATORY
> here in the French Alps.

No, Flarm is not really mandatory in the French Alps; a functioning Flarm is mandatory for all gliders flying in clubs that operate under the French Gliding Federation (FFVP). There are some places in the French Alps that operate on a (non-FFVP) commercial basis, or where there is no gliding club at all but you can get a tow or you can self-launch. Or you can start from an airfield outside France... I'd say 95% of the gliders you encounter in the Alps will have a functioning Flarm. More and more hang gliders and even paragliders have Flarm in the Alps.