Here's evidence why the gov't assholes overreacted.

[R.L.]

It's come out that the C150 was squawking VFR. Why on F*g earth would a
pilot on a supposed suicide-bomb mission bother to have his damned
transponder on, much less squawk 1200 while penetrating the ADIZ? Doesn't
make sense.

I believe I heard that the 9/11 hijackers knew enough to turn their
transponders off.

[Peter Duniho]

"R.L." > wrote in message
om...
> It's come out that the C150 was squawking VFR. [...]

That the evidence you come up with?

Come on...surely you can do better than pointing to the transponder. How
about IT WAS A FRIGGIN' CESSNA 150!

Practically everything security-related that followed 9/11 has been an
over-reaction.

[[email protected]]

R.L. wrote:
> It's come out that the C150 was squawking VFR. Why on F*g earth
would a
> pilot on a supposed suicide-bomb mission bother to have his damned
> transponder on, much less squawk 1200 while penetrating the ADIZ?
Doesn't
> make sense.

Maybe to not call attention to themselves for as long as they can.

[Denny]

Our government is a mob of cowards, trampling the Constitution in a
stampede to ensure their personal safety... I have to believe that the
original signers of the constitution, most of whom personally led
charges into the smoking muzzles of british guns, would gag on what is
happening today... They would spit on the yellow bellied congressmen
who are allowing this to go on... The frantic flight yesterday of the
people in the Whitehouse and the Congress only validates the beliefs of
those who are willing to die for their cause, that we are weak,
godless, and have surrendered the right to exist...

When a society reaches the point that it is willing to put a 19 year
old kid in a humvee in a foreign country and order him to drive down a
road where he will be shot at, or blown up, while at the same time the
50 year olds who put him in that humvee are fleeing like rabbits
because someone in a spam can Cessna got within ten miles of them, then
it is clear that 'insurgents' have won the war even if the battles
still go on...

I feel sick, I have to stop now...

denny

[Ron Natalie]

R.L. wrote:
> It's come out that the C150 was squawking VFR. Why on F*g earth would a
> pilot on a supposed suicide-bomb mission bother to have his damned
> transponder on, much less squawk 1200 while penetrating the ADIZ? Doesn't
> make sense.
>
Either a primary only return (remember the evacutation due to the
birds?) or a 1200 squawk is bad news. I suspect, you'd be better
off squawking 7700 than either of those codes in the ADIZ. There
have been reports of people going to 1200 on the ground at ADIZ
airports triggering investigations.

[usedtobe]

even a c150 can carry a small nuclear bomb


On Wed, 11 May 2005 22:21:03 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

>"R.L." > wrote in message
om...
>> It's come out that the C150 was squawking VFR. [...]
>
>That the evidence you come up with?
>
>Come on...surely you can do better than pointing to the transponder. How
>about IT WAS A FRIGGIN' CESSNA 150!
>
>Practically everything security-related that followed 9/11 has been an
>over-reaction.
>

[John T]

usedtobe wrote:
>
> even a c150 can carry a small nuclear bomb

What's the lightest known nuclear bomb weigh? "Nuclear" as in "fission" or
"fusion", not merely "dirty" with radioactive material.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "John T" > said:
>usedtobe wrote:
>> even a c150 can carry a small nuclear bomb
>
>What's the lightest known nuclear bomb weigh? "Nuclear" as in "fission" or
>"fusion", not merely "dirty" with radioactive material.

The one in the (nuclear) ALCM, the W-80, is about 300 pounds.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
The magic BOFH-phrase you need to summon at this point is:
"_Your_ lack of planning is not about to become _my_ emergency."
-- Tanuki

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, John T wrote:
> usedtobe wrote:
>>
>> even a c150 can carry a small nuclear bomb
>
> What's the lightest known nuclear bomb weigh? "Nuclear" as in "fission" or
> "fusion", not merely "dirty" with radioactive material.

The 51lb warhead that was used in the Davy Crockett nuclear mortar. It
was an implosion-type plutonium design, with a user-selectable yield of
10 to 250t. It was designed and tested by the US, and 2100 of them were
deployed between 1961 and 1971. The entire Davy Crockett round weighed
76lbs. It was the smallest nuclear weapon manufactured by the United
States, and close to the theoretical smallest size for a nuclear weapon.
Other weapons (artillery shells) of similar (1kt and less) which were
slimmer have been made and tested by the US too.

However, they are all accounted for. I doubt terrorists have had access
to the technology or an actual bomb of this size (otherwise they'd have
used it in lieu of commercial aircraft on Sept. 11th). A 'home made'
terrorist nuke would likely be too large and too heavy to get into
anything smaller than a B727.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Sport Pilot]

John T wrote:
> usedtobe wrote:
> >
> > even a c150 can carry a small nuclear bomb
>
> What's the lightest known nuclear bomb weigh? "Nuclear" as in
"fission" or
> "fusion", not merely "dirty" with radioactive material.
>
> --
> John T
> http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
> http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
> ____________________


Even a dirty bomb blown up a thousand feet over the capital, would stop
the government for weeks.

[Sport Pilot]

>When a society reaches the point that it is willing to put a 19 year
>old kid in a humvee in a foreign country and order him to drive down a

>road where he will be shot at, or blown up, while at the same time the

>50 year olds who put him in that humvee are fleeing like rabbits
>because someone in a spam can Cessna got within ten miles of them,
then
>it is clear that 'insurgents' have won the war even if the battles
>still go on...

So I understand you didn't care for FDR and Truman for the same reason?
How many of those 50 year olds knew it was a C150? None! The capitol
police were running around and shouting as though a nuclear warhead was
on its way. Lets see if and how the authoritys ask how it is the
nations capital was disrupted for such a small aircraft. Also how is
it that a small plane can get withen 3 miles. Surely a jetliner flying
almost 5 times faster could have made it all the way.

[Sport Pilot]

If I were a terrorist I would squawk a random number.
That way the conrollers would think it was simply an airliner that
didn't get entered in the system.

[Dylan Smith]

In article . com>, Sport Pilot wrote:
> Even a dirty bomb blown up a thousand feet over the capital, would stop
> the government for weeks.

Unlikely; I'm sure the government has a disaster recovery plan. There's
no reason why they couldn't assemble elsewhere. Even fairly small
businesses usually have a disaster recovery plan to allow them to
continue to operate in the case that their main facility is out of
action.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Jose]

> Maybe [they squawked VFR] to not call attention to themselves for as long as they can.

To not call attention to themselves, terrorists would get a regular
squawk code, flight following, and all that stuff, as if they were
passing through or going to one of the airports on the other side of the
ring. Then, at the last minute, they turn the transponder off, dive
past redline towards the target, and deliver their message.

Ok, that's still five minutes in a 150, maybe long enough to decide to
tell the President that his ride is waiting.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Dylan Smith]

....as for the smallest nuclear fission bomb made by the US, here's a web
page with some nice photographs of the Davy Crockett (and other
information).

http://www.brook.edu/FP/projects/nucwcost/davyc.htm

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Ron Natalie]

Sport Pilot wrote:

>
> Even a dirty bomb blown up a thousand feet over the capital, would stop
> the government for weeks.
>

Actually, it would just displace it. There have been contingencies for
the congress operating outside of the Capitol building (and it's
adjacent office buidlings) since the cold war. A dirty bomb set off
in the places you can still drive a SUV around the capitol would
accomplish the same thing.

No F16's come after me when I drive my monster truck up Capitol Hill.

[[email protected]]

Denny wrote:
> The frantic flight yesterday of the
> people in the Whitehouse and the Congress only validates the beliefs
of
> those who are willing to die for their cause, that we are weak,
> godless, and have surrendered the right to exist...

Gimme a break man. From their perspective, all they knew is that there
appeared to be an imminent threat. What possible good would have come
from just standing around in the capitol building waiting to be
possibly obliterated. It's not like they could have fought back.

There are situations where people running away can be called cowardly
and weak, but this ain't one of them. To sit there and wait when
there's not one thing that they could've personally done that would've
helped would have just been stupid.

[Larry Dighera]

On 12 May 2005 07:04:35 -0700, "Sport Pilot" > wrote
in . com>::

>Also how is it that a small plane can get withen 3 miles.

Apparently the ADIZ and Prohibited airspace only keeps the law abiding
out, not the sinister and stupid.

>Surely a jetliner flying almost 5 times faster could have made it all the way.

That is a reasonable assumption given the facts in this case.

[Dylan Smith]

In article . com>, wrote:
> Gimme a break man. From their perspective, all they knew is that there
> appeared to be an imminent threat. What possible good would have come
> from just standing around in the capitol building waiting to be
> possibly obliterated. It's not like they could have fought back.

Wherever they ran (like headless chickens) they would have been possibly
obliterated.

If the offending aircraft had a Davy Crockett round in the luggage area,
it wouldn't have made any difference whether they stayed where they were
or ran around like headless chickens. It would have been better if they
had stayed where they are and saved the energy, instead of demonstrating
to potential terrorists how easily they can be terrorized.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Peter Duniho]

"usedtobe" > wrote in message
...
> even a c150 can carry a small nuclear bomb

So what? If you can get "a small nuclear bomb" to the airport and load it
in a C150, you could just drive it to your target. Cars stream into DC
every day, but no one panics about those for some reason.

[Andrew Gideon]

John T wrote:

> What's the lightest known nuclear bomb weigh?Â*Â*"Nuclear"Â*asÂ*inÂ*"fission"
> or "fusion", not merely "dirty" with radioactive material.

I don't know that it's true, of course, but I've read several times that the
old Soviet Union had managed to build "suitcase" bombs. Of course, that
addresses more volume than mass, but I'd guess that these would be designed
to weigh as little as possible.

Still, and aircraft would be a poor way to deliver a nuke into DC when cars,
vans, trucks, and USPS deliveries are all available alternatives. If there
were a serious interest in security, these would all be kept out.

- Andrew

[John Galban]

Dylan Smith wrote:
>
> It would have been better if they
> had stayed where they are and saved the energy, instead of
demonstrating
> to potential terrorists how easily they can be terrorized.
>

Exactly! It has now been demonstrated that two people flying a
trainer with the destructive power of a Mini Cooper can bring the U.S.
government to a grinding halt. Not only does everything stop, but there
is the bonus of worldwide news coverage showing outright panic in the
streets. If I were a terrorist, I would be overjoyed. My job has been
done for me.

When I contrast yesterday's embarrasment with the real threats that
troops are expected to face daily in Iraq, I am convinced that we have
become a nation of cowards.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Sport Pilot]

All an airliner would have to do is turn left on a north bound flight
out instead of right. It will hit the WH before they can raise the
warning, no transponder tricks required.

[Andrew Gideon]

John Galban wrote:

> I am convinced that we have
> become a nation of cowards.

More accurately: a nation willing to be governed by cowards. I think that
this is worse that what you've written.

- Andrew

[Peter Duniho]

"John Galban" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Exactly! It has now been demonstrated that two people flying a
> trainer with the destructive power of a Mini Cooper can bring the U.S.
> government to a grinding halt.

It's worse than that. It has now been demonstrated that if you want to get
all the folks in the Capitol Building all grouped together out in the street
where they are sitting ducks for a guy with an assault rifle, all you have
to do is fly a Cessna 150 into the area.


> [...]
> When I contrast yesterday's embarrasment with the real threats that
> troops are expected to face daily in Iraq, I am convinced that we have
> become a nation of cowards.

Andrew says we are governed by cowards. Granted, some of our government may
be. However, I am convinced that others (and especially those in positions
of greater power) are simply using fear to achieve their own underhanded
goals.

On the bright side, a Washington State US Representative, Jim McDermott, was
quoted on the evening news last night, saying basically "all of this panic
is stupid" (I'm paraphrasing...he said it much better). Obviously, not all
of our government is buying into the scare tactics. There may be hope yet.

Pete

[Andrew Gideon]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> However,Â*IÂ*amÂ*convincedÂ*thatÂ*othersÂ*(andÂ*es peciallyÂ*thoseÂ*inÂ*positions
> of greater power) are simply using fear to achieve their own underhanded
> goals.

I'll agree to that. However, for fear to be exploited as you describe it
must exist.

Perhaps John's description was in fact more accurate than my own.

- Andrew

[Ron Natalie]

Sport Pilot wrote:
> All an airliner would have to do is turn left on a north bound flight
> out instead of right. It will hit the WH before they can raise the
> warning, no transponder tricks required.
>
Jeez, you think that may have already happened once?

[Happy Dog]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Sport Pilot wrote:
>
>> If I were a terrorist I would squawk a random number.
>> That way the conrollers would think it was simply an airliner that
>> didn't get entered in the system.
>
> Or you'd arrange for a bunch of transponders to be driving all over the
> city
> on a 1200 code, presuming (from the post before yours) that these are as
> visible as those airborne.

They're not.

moo

[Happy Dog]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
> John T wrote:
>
>> What's the lightest known nuclear bomb weigh? "Nuclear" as in "fission"
>> or "fusion", not merely "dirty" with radioactive material.
>
> I don't know that it's true, of course, but I've read several times that
> the
> old Soviet Union had managed to build "suitcase" bombs. Of course, that
> addresses more volume than mass, but I'd guess that these would be
> designed
> to weigh as little as possible.
>
> Still, and aircraft would be a poor way to deliver a nuke into DC when
> cars,
> vans, trucks, and USPS deliveries are all available alternatives. If
> there
> were a serious interest in security, these would all be kept out.

Yes. And anyone with the resources to acquire a suitcase nuke would have
the resources to use a more reliable delivery method.

moo

[George Patterson]

John T wrote:
>
> What's the lightest known nuclear bomb weigh?

According to stuff posted in another thread, about 71 pounds.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[John Lakesford]

How many 150 lb atom bombs are missing and/or are constructible inside this
country today?

If this bomb were readably available we would see/hear them going off all
over Israel everyday/week/month.


"usedtobe" > wrote in message
...
> even a c150 can carry a small nuclear bomb
>
>
> On Wed, 11 May 2005 22:21:03 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> > wrote:
>
>>"R.L." > wrote in message
om...
>>> It's come out that the C150 was squawking VFR. [...]
>>
>>That the evidence you come up with?
>>
>>Come on...surely you can do better than pointing to the transponder. How
>>about IT WAS A FRIGGIN' CESSNA 150!
>>
>>Practically everything security-related that followed 9/11 has been an
>>over-reaction.
>>
>