New Google Groups format

[Moshe Braner]

I use Google Groups to read RAS. I know there are other ways to reach it, but this has been my preferred method. I don't want to install new software or to have group messages appear within my email.

Now Google has forced upon me their new, dumbed down, look and feel of Groups. It's been in "beta" for months, I've tried it out and sent them my feedback but of course they ignored what I told them. Now, for example, I can no longer see how many NEW messages there are in a thread before I open it..

But the worst of it is: I can't reply privately to the author of a message. The "reply to author" entry appears in the 3-dot menu, but is grayed out, and if I hover over it it says I am not authorized to send messages. But I could do that in the old format, and I can now post messages to the whole group. Blech. Does anybody know of a workaround?

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Moshe Braner wrote on 11/12/2020 8:19 PM:
> I use Google Groups to read RAS. I know there are other ways to reach it, but this has been my preferred method. I don't want to install new software or to have group messages appear within my email.
>
> Now Google has forced upon me their new, dumbed down, look and feel of Groups. It's been in "beta" for months, I've tried it out and sent them my feedback but of course they ignored what I told them. Now, for example, I can no longer see how many NEW messages there are in a thread before I open it..
>
> But the worst of it is: I can't reply privately to the author of a message. The "reply to author" entry appears in the 3-dot menu, but is grayed out, and if I hover over it it says I am not authorized to send messages. But I could do that in the old format, and I can now post messages to the whole group. Blech. Does anybody know of a workaround?
>
I use nntp.aioe.org to read RAS, using my email program. The messages appear like emails, but
in a separate account for nntp.aioe.org. It's the original way people got newsgroups, before
Google came along. No changes in it, and I can reply privately, "kill" threads, etc., using the
newsgroup functionality built into my email app (a sibling to Thunderbird).

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[kinsell]

On 11/12/20 9:19 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> I use Google Groups to read RAS. I know there are other ways to reach it, but this has been my preferred method. I don't want to install new software or to have group messages appear within my email.
>
> Now Google has forced upon me their new, dumbed down, look and feel of Groups. It's been in "beta" for months, I've tried it out and sent them my feedback but of course they ignored what I told them. Now, for example, I can no longer see how many NEW messages there are in a thread before I open it.
>
> But the worst of it is: I can't reply privately to the author of a message. The "reply to author" entry appears in the 3-dot menu, but is grayed out, and if I hover over it it says I am not authorized to send messages. But I could do that in the old format, and I can now post messages to the whole group. Blech. Does anybody know of a workaround?
>

We discussed exactly this maybe six months ago. I use Thunderbird,
which doesn't require new software to be installed, and Usenet messages
are kept segregated from email. Plus it has nice filtering capability
to take out flame-baiters or topics of no interest. It doesn't obscure
email address of posters, so no problem at all doing personal replies.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:00:33 -0700, kinsell wrote:

> We discussed exactly this maybe six months ago. I use Thunderbird,
> which doesn't require new software to be installed, and Usenet messages
> are kept segregated from email. Plus it has nice filtering capability
> to take out flame-baiters or topics of no interest. It doesn't obscure
> email address of posters, so no problem at all doing personal replies.

When I was a Windows user, the best newsreader I found was Forte Agent -
its not free but does have a free trial period. The only reason I'm not
using it now is that I no longer use Windows: if Forte released a Linux
version I'd be using it.

I'm currently using Pan, which is free but no longer, apparently,
maintained, which is annoying, and have also used Thunderbird.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Chip Bearden[_2_]]

I have the same reaction, Moshe. I kept switching back to Classic Google Groups and providing detailed feedback as to why the "improved" interface was less functional in almost every way (the ONLY improvement I can see is that the posts in a thread are no longer paginated, but since they open up at the top of a thread without regard to which posts have been read, I have to scroll all the way down to see the unread ones--an extra step). But now I can't seem to switch back. I don't want to go use another interface (I've tried several) but I may have to. The way my PC display is configured, even replying to a post can be more difficult, although some of the more bizarre behavior seems to be fixed this morning.

I've worked in IT for over 20 years and have seen this many times. Young UX/UI designers want to "improve" the user experience and show off their design chops so they add white space, shrink fonts, introduce arcane icons with no text or rollovers, hide menus and other navigation elements, "declutter", and do other things to make the page look cleaner and sexier but make it harder to use. At a minimum, it becomes a learned interface, less intuitive than before. At worst (as is true here), it's less functional, more awkward to use, provides less information, adds clicks, etc. The most annoying strategy is when it's intentional, e.g., Snapchat, where users take pride in knowing the secrets of how to use the app to which only their friends and other cognoscenti are privy.

On rare occasions, I've seen Google scramble to back down. Years ago they eliminated the scroll bar and, separately, the Google Advanced Search page (which had been my home page for years). In both cases, outcry from thousands of users forced them to retreat (although with the scroll bar, because they had already deployed the code--with other changes--it took them a while to add back the functionality they had removed because they had to go through the same release process as they would for a change). But those are exceptions. I don't even know what their strategy is for Google Groups to know whether forcing people off the site who ONLY read one or two Usenet groups is what they want.

Despite the cluelessness of many young designers (who are sometimes more concerned with launching cool new designs that they can add to their portfolios than they are with designing user-friendly pages), the folks at Google aren't stupid. They're just arrogant. In this case, they've ignored the feedback so I suspect I'll do what I usually do when a company insists that I do business their way or no way and say goodbye.

Chip Bearden
JB

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/12/20 9:19 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> I use Google Groups to read RAS. I know there are other ways to reach it, but this has been my preferred method. I don't want to install new software or to have group messages appear within my email.
>
> Now Google has forced upon me their new, dumbed down, look and feel of Groups. It's been in "beta" for months, I've tried it out and sent them my feedback but of course they ignored what I told them. Now, for example, I can no longer see how many NEW messages there are in a thread before I open it.
>
> But the worst of it is: I can't reply privately to the author of a message. The "reply to author" entry appears in the 3-dot menu, but is grayed out, and if I hover over it it says I am not authorized to send messages. But I could do that in the old format, and I can now post messages to the whole group. Blech. Does anybody know of a workaround?
>

As I described previously, I use Thunderbird, my email client. But it
is not as you suggest above with RAS postings interspersed with emails.
Instead it looks something like this:


Inbox (5)
Drafts
Sent
Junk
Trash
Soaring Newsgroup
r.a.soaring (9)

Off to the right is a list of the subject lines. Clicking on any one
(email or RAS topic) displays the message and marks it as read.

Oh, and I can reply directly to you or the newsgroup or, as I did with
that Crazy Canadian, mark his rants to be deleted without my seeing
them. Maybe I should do that with the Apology thread, but it's become
an amusement long past its useful life.

I know this is not right for everyone but it works very well for me.

Cheers,
Dan

--
Dan
5J

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/13/20 7:05 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:00:33 -0700, kinsell wrote:
>
>> We discussed exactly this maybe six months ago. I use Thunderbird,
>> which doesn't require new software to be installed, and Usenet messages
>> are kept segregated from email. Plus it has nice filtering capability
>> to take out flame-baiters or topics of no interest. It doesn't obscure
>> email address of posters, so no problem at all doing personal replies.
>
> When I was a Windows user, the best newsreader I found was Forte Agent -
> its not free but does have a free trial period. The only reason I'm not
> using it now is that I no longer use Windows: if Forte released a Linux
> version I'd be using it.
>
> I'm currently using Pan, which is free but no longer, apparently,
> maintained, which is annoying, and have also used Thunderbird.
>
>

I just trashed Windows forever about two weeks ago. Using and loving
Ubuntu now. But I was able to keep Thunderbird when I switched (do some
research on how before doing this). I kept Chrome for about 3 days
before switching to Brave as a browser (thanks 5Z!)

--
Dan
5J

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/13/20 7:47 AM, Chip Bearden wrote:
> since they open up at the top of a thread without regard to which posts have been read, I have to scroll all the way down to see the unread ones--an extra step

Beating my dead horse now... In Thunderbird a simple View -> Threads ->
Unread fixes that problem. I only see what I haven't seen before. If I
want to see all of them, it's: View -> Threads -> All

Simple

--
Dan
5J

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 09:48:52 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

> I just trashed Windows forever about two weeks ago. Using and loving
> Ubuntu now. But I was able to keep Thunderbird when I switched (do some
> research on how before doing this). I kept Chrome for about 3 days
> before switching to Brave as a browser (thanks 5Z!)

Good move!

I used Firefox for years, but switched to Brave about a year ago.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[kinsell]

On 11/13/20 7:47 AM, Chip Bearden wrote:

> Despite the cluelessness of many young designers (who are sometimes more concerned with launching cool new designs that they can add to their portfolios than they are with designing user-friendly pages), the folks at Google aren't stupid. They're just arrogant. In this case, they've ignored the feedback so I suspect I'll do what I usually do when a company insists that I do business their way or no way and say goodbye.
>

Google makes uncounted billions by collecting and selling personal data
of users of their 'free' software. Listening to feedback isn't of
particular interest to them. They make so much they can burn billions
on Loon Balloons and electric kites and not even miss it.

It's always funny when people say they won't have a FB account due to
privacy issues, then go all in with Google.

[[email protected]]

Am 13.11.20 um 20:00 schrieb Mana:
> do you guys have recommandations for a good android nntp usenet reader?

PhoNews

[AS]

On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 3:08:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Am 13.11.20 um 20:00 schrieb Mana:
> > do you guys have recommandations for a good android nntp usenet reader?
> PhoNews

Has anybody figured out yet how to reverse the order of the posts in one thread so that the newest post is on the top and not the bottom?

Thanks,

Uli
'AS'

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:39:11 -0800, AS wrote:

> Has anybody figured out yet how to reverse the order of the posts in one
> thread so that the newest post is on the top and not the bottom?
>
That may not be possible: I don't recall ever seeing a newsreader that
would do that, but on the other hand I have never used a newsreader
without a 'skip to next unread article' button.

Of course, a web app like google groups probably won't do that. But then
again, most web forums won't do that either.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/13/20 3:39 PM, AS wrote:
> On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 3:08:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>> Am 13.11.20 um 20:00 schrieb Mana:
>>> do you guys have recommandations for a good android nntp usenet reader?
>> PhoNews
>
> Has anybody figured out yet how to reverse the order of the posts in one thread so that the newest post is on the top and not the bottom?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Uli
> 'AS'
>

Well... Since I use Thunderbird, it's a simple matter of clicking on
the Date column header at the top of the screen. You can also order by
Sender, Subject...

--
Dan
5J

[Stu Venters]

To setup Tbird for news, I need a url for a news feed.

Plenty of pay per month services out there.

Is there a good free one?

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:33:39 -0800, Stu Venters wrote:

> Is there a good free one?

Eternal-September, http://www.eternal-september.org/


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[jp]

On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 5:44:19 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:33:39 -0800, Stu Venters wrote:
>
> > Is there a good free one?
> Eternal-September, http://www.eternal-september.org/
> --
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I've given up on Thunderbird. Clearly I have no idea how to set it up as a newsreader for rec.aviation.soaring and I am too dumb to understand the fragmentary (for me) help.

[kinsell]

On 11/13/20 6:59 PM, jp wrote:
> On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 5:44:19 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:33:39 -0800, Stu Venters wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a good free one?
>> Eternal-September, http://www.eternal-september.org/
>> --
>> --
>> Martin | martin at
>> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
> I've given up on Thunderbird. Clearly I have no idea how to set it up as a newsreader for rec.aviation.soaring and I am too dumb to understand the fragmentary (for me) help.
>

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/creating-newsgroup-account

Similar to configuring an email account.

[jp]

On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 6:33:10 PM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
> On 11/13/20 6:59 PM, jp wrote:
> > On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 5:44:19 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> >> On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:33:39 -0800, Stu Venters wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is there a good free one?
> >> Eternal-September, http://www.eternal-september.org/
> >> --
> >> --
> >> Martin | martin at
> >> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> >
> > I've given up on Thunderbird. Clearly I have no idea how to set it up as a newsreader for rec.aviation.soaring and I am too dumb to understand the fragmentary (for me) help.
> >
> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/creating-newsgroup-account
>
> Similar to configuring an email account.

I have read that support document and tried to follow it but had no success.. For one thing, I guess I don't know what to put in for the name of the rec.aviation.soaring newsgroup. I put in rec.aviation.soaring, tried , and a few other guesses but none apparently worked. I'm likely screwing it up somehow on my Mac.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

jp wrote on 11/13/2020 7:44 PM:
> On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 6:33:10 PM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
>> On 11/13/20 6:59 PM, jp wrote:
>>> On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 5:44:19 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:33:39 -0800, Stu Venters wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is there a good free one?
>>>> Eternal-September, http://www.eternal-september.org/
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Martin | martin at
>>>> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>>>
>>> I've given up on Thunderbird. Clearly I have no idea how to set it up as a newsreader for rec.aviation.soaring and I am too dumb to understand the fragmentary (for me) help.
>>>
>> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/creating-newsgroup-account
>>
>> Similar to configuring an email account.
>
> I have read that support document and tried to follow it but had no success.. For one thing, I guess I don't know what to put in for the name of the rec.aviation.soaring newsgroup. I put in rec.aviation.soaring, tried , and a few other guesses but none apparently worked. I'm likely screwing it up somehow on my Mac.
>
I use this for the location:

news://nntp.aoie.org:119/rec.aviation.soaring

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[kinsell]

On 11/13/20 9:42 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> jp wrote on 11/13/2020 7:44 PM:
>> On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 6:33:10 PM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
>>> On 11/13/20 6:59 PM, jp wrote:
>>>> On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 5:44:19 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:33:39 -0800, Stu Venters wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a good free one?
>>>>> Eternal-September, http://www.eternal-september.org/
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> Martin | martin at
>>>>> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>>>>
>>>> I've given up on Thunderbird. Clearly I have no idea how to set it
>>>> up as a newsreader for rec.aviation.soaring and I am too dumb to
>>>> understand the fragmentary (for me) help.
>>>>
>>> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/creating-newsgroup-account
>>>
>>> Similar to configuring an email account.
>>
>> I have read that support document and tried to follow it but had no
>> success..Â* For one thing, I guess I don't know what to put in for the
>> name of the rec.aviation.soaring newsgroup.Â* I put in
>> rec.aviation.soaring, tried , and
>> a few other guesses but none apparently worked.Â* I'm likely screwing
>> it up somehow on my Mac.
>>
> I use this for the location:
>
> news://nntp.aoie.org:119/rec.aviation.soaring
>

Using eternal-september as the server, my location is:

news://eternal-september.org:119/rec.aviation.soaring

You'll need an account at one of the free or paid usenet servers, and
they would have that information for you.

-Dave

[Moshe Braner]

I now registered with eternal-september, installed Thunderbird on my PC, configured it to connect to that server, and it works. Thanks! Only works for Usenet groups though, not true Google Groups such as our club forum.

To make it work in Thunderbird, I gave it this server name: "news.eternal-september.org", and then in the Server Settings, need to check "always request authentication when connecting to this server". The first time you connect, Thunderbird will ask you for the username (that you chose in eternal-september), and the password (that it emailed after registration). After that Thunderbird will remember those and login for you silently.

[Moshe Braner]

On Saturday, November 14, 2020 at 5:33:36 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
> I now registered with eternal-september, installed Thunderbird on my PC, configured it to connect to that server, and it works. Thanks! Only works for Usenet groups though, not true Google Groups such as our club forum.
>
> To make it work in Thunderbird, I gave it this server name: "news.eternal-september.org", and then in the Server Settings, need to check "always request authentication when connecting to this server". The first time you connect, Thunderbird will ask you for the username (that you chose in eternal-september), and the password (that it emailed after registration). After that Thunderbird will remember those and login for you silently.

All the newsgroup messages appear in Thunderbird in a monospaced font. I know this server (eternal-september) only sends plain text contents, but can I ask Thunderbird to show it in a more readable proportional font?

[Moshe Braner]

On Saturday, November 14, 2020 at 6:02:34 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On Saturday, November 14, 2020 at 5:33:36 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > I now registered with eternal-september, installed Thunderbird on my PC, configured it to connect to that server, and it works. Thanks! Only works for Usenet groups though, not true Google Groups such as our club forum.
> >
> > To make it work in Thunderbird, I gave it this server name: "news.eternal-september.org", and then in the Server Settings, need to check "always request authentication when connecting to this server". The first time you connect, Thunderbird will ask you for the username (that you chose in eternal-september), and the password (that it emailed after registration). After that Thunderbird will remember those and login for you silently.
> All the newsgroup messages appear in Thunderbird in a monospaced font. I know this server (eternal-september) only sends plain text contents, but can I ask Thunderbird to show it in a more readable proportional font?

- found it: in the Tools / Options / General look for Fonts and Colors, click Advanced, and uncheck "use fixed width font for plain text".

And making messages from the crazy Canadian invisible is a snap!

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/14/20 3:33 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> I now registered with eternal-september, installed Thunderbird on my PC, configured it to connect to that server, and it works. Thanks! Only works for Usenet groups though, not true Google Groups such as our club forum.
>
> To make it work in Thunderbird, I gave it this server name: "news.eternal-september.org", and then in the Server Settings, need to check "always request authentication when connecting to this server". The first time you connect, Thunderbird will ask you for the username (that you chose in eternal-september), and the password (that it emailed after registration). After that Thunderbird will remember those and login for you silently.
>

I think that's the step that I missed in my attempts to help.

--
Dan
5J

[kinsell]

On 11/14/20 3:33 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> I now registered with eternal-september, installed Thunderbird on my PC, configured it to connect to that server, and it works. Thanks! Only works for Usenet groups though, not true Google Groups such as our club forum.
>


I subscribe to a Google Group using the email option, then use a filter
to direct all those messages to a dedicated folder. Since it's low
volume, I just save substantially all the postings indefinitely.

R.A.S. I autoexpire the messages after 120 days or so to make navigation
through current messages easier.

-Dave

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

It occurs to me that the reasoning for this change to the new Google Groups format, and how it impacts replying "privately" to an author (I miss this feature) is that Google wants to make all of their groups operate the same from a permissions standpoint.

Because USENET news groups effectively have no per user, or per group, permissions, anyone can say anything to anyone (witness our least favorite RAS denizen Daryl S. Kabatoff). Basically there is no owner, or manager, of the RAS Google group so there is no one in control. Thus a reader of USENET news via Google Groups doesn't have the correct "permissions" to reply privately.

Google doesn't want to support a unique interface for a small group of users. Understandable from their point of view but I don't like it...

My $0.02.

- John (OHM)

[Moshe Braner]

On Saturday, November 14, 2020 at 5:33:36 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
> I now registered with eternal-september, installed Thunderbird on my PC, configured it to connect to that server, and it works. Thanks! Only works for Usenet groups though, not true Google Groups such as our club forum.
>
> To make it work in Thunderbird, I gave it this server name: "news.eternal-september.org", and then in the Server Settings, need to check "always request authentication when connecting to this server". The first time you connect, Thunderbird will ask you for the username (that you chose in eternal-september), and the password (that it emailed after registration). After that Thunderbird will remember those and login for you silently.

In the last week no new RAS messages have arrived via eternal-september. Anybody know what's going on?

[Dan Marotta]

I get mine through eternal-september.

Dan
5J

On 2/15/21 1:52 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On Saturday, November 14, 2020 at 5:33:36 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
>> I now registered with eternal-september, installed Thunderbird on my PC, configured it to connect to that server, and it works. Thanks! Only works for Usenet groups though, not true Google Groups such as our club forum.
>>
>> To make it work in Thunderbird, I gave it this server name: "news.eternal-september.org", and then in the Server Settings, need to check "always request authentication when connecting to this server". The first time you connect, Thunderbird will ask you for the username (that you chose in eternal-september), and the password (that it emailed after registration). After that Thunderbird will remember those and login for you silently.
>
> In the last week no new RAS messages have arrived via eternal-september. Anybody know what's going on?
>