BGA Tech. News, Wheel brakes.

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

BGA Engineering News No. 30, May 2005
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/technical/newsletters/technewsmay05.pdf has
a section on wheel brakes (at the end) which includes the following:

" If a glider was designed with a brake then it must have one fitted and
working.

" If the glider has a main skid and can be stopped by using the skid then
the wheel brake may be temporarily unserviceable provided it is recorded as
a deferred defect, notified to the pilot and rectified at the earliest
opportunity (i.e. within a day or so)."

When Lasham first bought new K13s and K8s, one of the first things we did
was to disconnect the wheel brakes.

With the K8 the wheel brake hardly worked, and the front skid worked very
well.

With the K13, the brake soon stopped working at all well, and again the
front skid works well.

I saw a K13 Tost wheel with the maker's tag attached. It said, roughly,
"This wheel has a brake which is too small, because there is not room to fit
one big enough. Do not use it unless you have to, you will need to adjust
it every time you use it hard."

Lasham is of course a large flat site, and the K8 and K13 finish on the
front skid even if the stick is held on the back stop during the ground run.

Most of Lasham's present fleet of K13s were built with a front wheel instead
of a skid, and have a disc brake which does work well.

Is it possible to change the Tost drum brake wheel on a K13 to a disc brake?
How much does it cost?

How many club operated K13s have a Tost drum wheel brake which works well?
Is it really unsafe to operate a K13 without a good wheel brake, relying on
the front skid?

Is it really unsafe to operate a K8 without a wheel brake?

How much flying have those who wrote this ruling done in skidded K13s and in
K8s?

I have twice tried to post this to u.r.a.s., but both times it disappeared
into cyberspace.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

[nimbusgb]

Working?

How and who's going to test it? Do glider testers now need a rolling
road dyno to test the restriction of the brake? That's the only way
to really test a wheel brake. If when pulling the lever a smell of hot
brake shoes is emitted then the brake is 'working'.

If the lever moves the brake shoes/pads into contact with the drum or
disk the brake is 'working'.

Ian

[Don Johnstone]

I don't think there is any need for concern here for
several reasons. This is nothing new, just a re-statement
of something that has been the rule for some time.
Like many other rules set by the BGA it can be safely
ignored, they don't have the bottle to enforce it.
There are far worse things that go on that they are
selectively blind to so why shoud this be a burning
issue. The wheel brake on my ASW 17 will stop the wheel
turning if operated in the workshop, very useful, pity
it does not retard the glider at all on the ground
run, not that I would want it to as with no nose wheel
an effective brake is not a good idea. I would hasten
to add that the brake 'works' as it was designed to
do.
My club has a K13 and I have never seen it with a wheel
brake and I cannot think why anyone would fit one.
I would like to see the BGA justify that having a wheel
brake is an airworthiness issue when they ignore so
many other more dubious practices.


At 23:30 13 May 2005, W.J. \bill\ Dean \u.K.\. wrote:
>BGA Engineering News No. 30, May 2005
>http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/technical/newsletters/technewsmay
>>05.pdf has
>a section on wheel brakes (at the end) which includes
>the following:
>
>' If a glider was designed with a brake then it must
>have one fitted and
>working.
>
>' If the glider has a main skid and can be stopped
>by using the skid then
>the wheel brake may be temporarily unserviceable provided
>it is recorded as
>a deferred defect, notified to the pilot and rectified
>at the earliest
>opportunity (i.e. within a day or so).'
>
>When Lasham first bought new K13s and K8s, one of the
>first things we did
>was to disconnect the wheel brakes.
>
>With the K8 the wheel brake hardly worked, and the
>front skid worked very
>well.
>
>With the K13, the brake soon stopped working at all
>well, and again the
>front skid works well.
>
>I saw a K13 Tost wheel with the maker's tag attached.
> It said, roughly,
>'This wheel has a brake which is too small, because
>there is not room to fit
>one big enough. Do not use it unless you have to,
>you will need to adjust
>it every time you use it hard.'
>
>Lasham is of course a large flat site, and the K8 and
>K13 finish on the
>front skid even if the stick is held on the back stop
>during the ground run.
>
>Most of Lasham's present fleet of K13s were built with
>a front wheel instead
>of a skid, and have a disc brake which does work well.
>
>Is it possible to change the Tost drum brake wheel
>on a K13 to a disc brake?
>How much does it cost?
>
>How many club operated K13s have a Tost drum wheel
>brake which works well?
>Is it really unsafe to operate a K13 without a good
>wheel brake, relying on
>the front skid?
>
>Is it really unsafe to operate a K8 without a wheel
>brake?
>
>How much flying have those who wrote this ruling done
>in skidded K13s and in
>K8s?
>
>I have twice tried to post this to u.r.a.s., but both
>times it disappeared
>into cyberspace.
>
>W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>Remove 'ic' to reply.
>
>
>
>
>

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

The ASW17 as built has a K13 wheel, no surprise that it does not work.

ASW17s advertised in the USA used often to claim "Blanik wheel", so
presumably this can be made to fit and works better.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).

"Don Johnstone" > wrote in
message ...

>
>I don't think there is any need for concern here for
> several reasons. This is nothing new, just a re-statement
> of something that has been the rule for some time.
> Like many other rules set by the BGA it can be safely
> ignored, they don't have the bottle to enforce it.
> There are far worse things that go on that they are
> selectively blind to so why should this be a burning
> issue. The wheel brake on my ASW 17 will stop the wheel
> turning if operated in the workshop, very useful, pity
> it does not retard the glider at all on the ground
> run, not that I would want it to as with no nose wheel
> an effective brake is not a good idea. I would hasten
> to add that the brake 'works' as it was designed to
> do.
>
> My club has a K13 and I have never seen it with a wheel
> brake and I cannot think why anyone would fit one.
> I would like to see the BGA justify that having a wheel
> brake is an airworthiness issue when they ignore so
> many other more dubious practices.
>
>>
>>At 23:30 13 May 2005, W.J. \bill\ Dean \u.K.\. wrote:
>>BGA Engineering News No. 30, May 2005
>>http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/technical/newsletters/technewsmay
>>>05.pdf has
>>a section on wheel brakes (at the end) which includes
>>the following:
>>
>>' If a glider was designed with a brake then it must
>>have one fitted and
>>working.
>>
>>' If the glider has a main skid and can be stopped
>>by using the skid then
>>the wheel brake may be temporarily unserviceable provided
>>it is recorded as
>>a deferred defect, notified to the pilot and rectified
>>at the earliest
>>opportunity (i.e. within a day or so).'
>>
>>When Lasham first bought new K13s and K8s, one of the
>>first things we did
>>was to disconnect the wheel brakes.
>>
>>With the K8 the wheel brake hardly worked, and the
>>front skid worked very
>>well.
>>
>>With the K13, the brake soon stopped working at all
>>well, and again the
>>front skid works well.
>>
>>I saw a K13 Tost wheel with the maker's tag attached.
>> It said, roughly,
>>'This wheel has a brake which is too small, because
>>there is not room to fit
>>one big enough. Do not use it unless you have to,
>>you will need to adjust
>>it every time you use it hard.'
>>
>>Lasham is of course a large flat site, and the K8 and
>>K13 finish on the
>>front skid even if the stick is held on the back stop
>>during the ground run.
>>
>>Most of Lasham's present fleet of K13s were built with
>>a front wheel instead
>>of a skid, and have a disc brake which does work well.
>>
>>Is it possible to change the Tost drum brake wheel
>>on a K13 to a disc brake?
>>How much does it cost?
>>
>>How many club operated K13s have a Tost drum wheel
>>brake which works well?
>>Is it really unsafe to operate a K13 without a good
>>wheel brake, relying on
>>the front skid?
>>
>>Is it really unsafe to operate a K8 without a wheel
>>brake?
>>
>>How much flying have those who wrote this ruling done
>>in skidded K13s and in
>>K8s?
>>
>>I have twice tried to post this to u.r.a.s., but both
>>times it disappeared
>>into cyberspace.
>>
>>W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
>>Remove 'ic' to reply.
>>
>

[Eric Greenwell]

Don Johnstone wrote:
> The wheel brake on my ASW 17 will stop the wheel
> turning if operated in the workshop, very useful, pity
> it does not retard the glider at all on the ground
> run, not that I would want it to as with no nose wheel
> an effective brake is not a good idea.

A friend of mine fitted his ASW 17 with a Cessna wheel and disk brake.
It was very effective, and did not put the glider on it's nose. If I
needed to use the brake hard enough to put a glider on it's nose, I'd
gladly trade a scratched nose for running into something hard or expensive!

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Bruce]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Don Johnstone wrote:
>
>> The wheel brake on my ASW 17 will stop the wheel
>> turning if operated in the workshop, very useful, pity
>> it does not retard the glider at all on the ground
>> run, not that I would want it to as with no nose wheel
>> an effective brake is not a good idea.
>
>
> A friend of mine fitted his ASW 17 with a Cessna wheel and disk brake.
> It was very effective, and did not put the glider on it's nose. If I
> needed to use the brake hard enough to put a glider on it's nose, I'd
> gladly trade a scratched nose for running into something hard or expensive!
>

Just be careful. I decided to make the Tost "Liliput" (you know why they called
it that, don't you) wheel work on my Standard Cirrus. The amount of play and
tiny components can make life exciting though. My approach was to methodically
adjust the actuating lever on successive flights. Landing on a 1435m tar runway
meant there was no risk of hitting anything, so it should have been safe to
experiment. I went from having no effective retardation to a locked wheel and
one of those expensive white stripes on the tar in one adjustment...

Having now taken a close look, the bush on the actuator is worn, and the
floating attachments move. I could fit a new wheel and have very little
improvement - even purchased a new brake assembly, then discovered that they
changed the bolt pattern for the locating arm. Currently the new brake is
gathering dust and I simply ensure I don't point it at anything I may want to
keep on the ground run...

One of those Cleveland disk brake sets is looking better by the day.
--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.
-+-
\_________0_________/

[Don Johnstone]

At 23:00 15 May 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Don Johnstone wrote:
>> The wheel brake on my ASW 17 will stop the wheel
>> turning if operated in the workshop, very useful,
>>pity
>> it does not retard the glider at all on the ground
>> run, not that I would want it to as with no nose wheel
>> an effective brake is not a good idea.
>
>A friend of mine fitted his ASW 17 with a Cessna wheel
>and disk brake.
>It was very effective, and did not put the glider on
>it's nose. If I
>needed to use the brake hard enough to put a glider
>on it's nose, I'd
>gladly trade a scratched nose for running into something
>hard or expensive!
>
>--
>Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell
>Washington State
>USA

I have an answer for that, I don't point it at anything
hard or expensive :-). As luck would have it the 17
is heavyish and most farmers fields in the UK are quite
soft and so work on the gravel trap theory.
I found the same problem as another poster, increasing
the efficiency of the brake switched on white line
drawing mode.

[Ian Johnston]

On Fri, 13 May 2005 23:07:36 UTC, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
> wrote:

: " If a glider was designed with a brake then it must have one fitted and
: working.

If they enforced this it would ground most of the wooden club gliders
I have flown.

Ian


--

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

Last weekend I was at a very well known small club with two K13s, both with
front skids. Both had a wheel brake cable on the bottom of the airbrake
handle, on both of them this cable was slack when the airbrake was fully
open to the stop.

I told them that both K13s should be grounded, and explained why. They
just laughed, and said that they had always been like that. Later I was
happy to fly in one of them, with the CFI; no problems.

Beaurocracy, don't you love it!

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>
> "Ian Johnston" >
> wrote in message news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-MsLI6ErB8BMG@localhost...
>
> On Fri, 13 May 2005 23:07:36 UTC, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
> > wrote:
>
> : " If a glider was designed with a brake then it must have one fitted and
> : working.
>
> If they enforced this it would ground most of the wooden club gliders
> I have flown.
>
> Ian
>