High Altitude operations (Turbo charge???)

[Andre]

I operate off an airfield with a ground elevation of 5327 feet ASL.
Obviously my engine (VW 1835cc with Zenith Carb) feels the altitude
somewhat.
I am thinking....
Would Turbo charging help?
What about an electric blower to increase manifold pressure maybe?
Or how about a NOS system?

[Richard Lamb]

How about building a 2180.

Personally, I'd not fly a turbocharged VW.

Ever.

Richard

htp://www.flash.net/~lamb01

Andre wrote:
>
> I operate off an airfield with a ground elevation of 5327 feet ASL.
> Obviously my engine (VW 1835cc with Zenith Carb) feels the altitude
> somewhat.
> I am thinking....
> Would Turbo charging help?
> What about an electric blower to increase manifold pressure maybe?
> Or how about a NOS system?

[Bart D. Hull]

Andre,

I believe turbo-charging is a good solution to your problem. I have
specifically looked into altitude compensation with my system that
I have setup on my Subaru 2.2l.

I have seen the electric blowers on EBAY but I don't believe you will
see the pressure that is developed with a turbo.

Considerations with a turbo setup.

1. Additional weight
2. How much boost? (Too much and you will ping your engine to death.)
3. How to add additional fuel to match boost (IE EFI system or carb)
4 If your using a carb are you going to use a blow through or suck
through system.
5. Timing may need to be reduced dependant on boost to avoid ping.
6. Waste gate or pop-off valve to limit boost.

--
Bart D. Hull

Tempe,Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html for my Subaru Engine
Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html for Tango II I'm
building.



Andre wrote:
> How about RAM air?
> Is that even worth considering?
>
> "Andre" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I operate off an airfield with a ground elevation of 5327 feet ASL.
>>Obviously my engine (VW 1835cc with Zenith Carb) feels the altitude
>>somewhat.
>>I am thinking....
>>Would Turbo charging help?
>>What about an electric blower to increase manifold pressure maybe?
>>Or how about a NOS system?
>>
>>
>
>
>

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 15:05:25 GMT, Richard Riley
> wrote:

>On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 12:32:08 +0200, "Andre" > wrote:
>
>:I operate off an airfield with a ground elevation of 5327 feet ASL.
>:Obviously my engine (VW 1835cc with Zenith Carb) feels the altitude
>:somewhat.
>:I am thinking....
>:Would Turbo charging help?
>
>A lot.
>
>:What about an electric blower to increase manifold pressure maybe?
>
>I've never seen it done. It's plausible that, with a reasonable
>weight in batteries, you could get a couple of minutes boost just for
>takeoff. It would be a *very* experimental installation.
>
>:Or how about a NOS system?
>
>Again, just for takeoff it's a possibility, but you'd go through a lot
>of it in a hurry.

How about a gasoline powered leaf blower? Pull the rope for "boost on
demand"

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 12:46:52 +0200, "Andre" > wrote:

>How about RAM air?
>Is that even worth considering?

Ram air is not effective at low speeds.

>
>"Andre" > wrote in message
...
>> I operate off an airfield with a ground elevation of 5327 feet ASL.
>> Obviously my engine (VW 1835cc with Zenith Carb) feels the altitude
>> somewhat.

Just somewhat?? <:-))

>> I am thinking....
>> Would Turbo charging help?

Probably turbonormalizing...It's not as hard on the engine and would
give you take off power at 5300. With a carb it get a bit
complicated as the carb needs to be in a pressure box.

>> What about an electric blower to increase manifold pressure maybe?

Not familiar with them.

>> Or how about a NOS system?

NOS needs a rather healthy mixture to begin with (As I recall it helps
with cooling)...I'm not sure about the higher altitude effects.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>>
>>
>

[Rich S.]

<clare @ snyder.on .ca> wrote in message
...
>
> How about a gasoline powered leaf blower? Pull the rope for "boost on
> demand"

I see it mounted on the bottom of the fuselage under the pilot's seat, with
the pull cord going up between his legs and the blow nozzle pointed aft.
Does anybody have the thrust specs on popular models?

Rich S.

[Paul Millner]

>> NOS needs a rather healthy mixture to begin with (As I recall it helps
with cooling)...

NOS adds a bunch of heat to the engine, so no, it doesn't help with cooling.
Basically, it's a safer way to add oxygen to the incoming air than injecting
oxygen directly... so since the incoming air is now much more oxygen rich,
you need a bunch more fuel, or your mixture will go very lean. In that
sense, it's an alternative to turbocharging... but the NOS bottle will last
a minute or so, OK for one takeoff... then what? :-)

Paul, turbo Cardinal mode

[Paul Millner]

>> Ah.... but would it?

>> Rich "Best use of horsepower?" S.

Sure, 'cause you'll get the leverage of all the extra HP the air starved
engine can make... and leverage is the name of the game! :-)

Paul

[Paul Millner]

>>With a carb it get a bit
complicated as the carb needs to be in a pressure box.


No pressure box required for Marvel Schebler / Precision Airmotive carbs...
just installation of a third throttle shaft seal (did it on my Cardinal when
I turbonormalized it).

Paul

[Morgans]

"Rich S." > wrote in message
...
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > It might work more better to have it blowing into the engine for this
> > poster's intent. :-)
> > --
> > Jim in NC
>
> Ah.... but would it?
>
> Rich "Best use of horsepower?" S.
>
>

So you think the leaf blower idea would be about as effective at increasing
HP, as farting into the carb for the methane content?

You may have a point. Anyone have some pressure gauge that could measure
the small amounts of boost at the business end of a leaf blower? I would be
curious to see what good one would do.

Didn't a guy use a two cycle engine setup to boost his engine for a race
lately? What kind of deal did he use?
--
Jim in NC

[Rich S.]

"Morgans" <jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> wrote in message
...
>
> So you think the leaf blower idea would be about as effective at
increasing
> HP, as farting into the carb for the methane content?
>
> You may have a point. Anyone have some pressure gauge that could measure
> the small amounts of boost at the business end of a leaf blower? I would
be
> curious to see what good one would do.

Actually, two things came to mind.
1. Using the leaf blower to:
a. burn gasoline to
b. turn a fan to
c. blow air into another engine to:
d. burn gasoline to
e. turn a fan to
f. produce thrust
Seems somewhat inefficient. If the leaf blower simply uses its horsepower to
add the thrust, it cuts out steps c, d, & e.

2. The leaf blower would be suffering the same anoxia as the main
powerplant. Perhaps one could use a Cox .049 to increase its manifold
pressure? ;o)

"Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em.
And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum."

Rich S.

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:45:50 -0700, "Rich S."
> wrote:

The weedeater Barracuda is rated at 370 cfm.
It will produce boost up to just below that point.
>"Morgans" <jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> wrote in message
...
>>
>> So you think the leaf blower idea would be about as effective at
>increasing
>> HP, as farting into the carb for the methane content?
>>
>> You may have a point. Anyone have some pressure gauge that could measure
>> the small amounts of boost at the business end of a leaf blower? I would
>be
>> curious to see what good one would do.
>
>Actually, two things came to mind.
>1. Using the leaf blower to:
> a. burn gasoline to
> b. turn a fan to
> c. blow air into another engine to:
> d. burn gasoline to
> e. turn a fan to
> f. produce thrust
>Seems somewhat inefficient. If the leaf blower simply uses its horsepower to
>add the thrust, it cuts out steps c, d, & e.
>
>2. The leaf blower would be suffering the same anoxia as the main
>powerplant. Perhaps one could use a Cox .049 to increase its manifold
>pressure? ;o)
>
>"Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em.
>And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum."
>
>Rich S.
>

[Morgans]

<clare @ snyder.on .ca> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:45:50 -0700, "Rich S."
> > wrote:
>
> The weedeater Barracuda is rated at 370 cfm.
> It will produce boost up to just below that point.

How much boost?
--
Jim in NC

[Roger Halstead]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 01:06:22 -0700, "Paul Millner"
> wrote:

>>> NOS needs a rather healthy mixture to begin with (As I recall it helps
>with cooling)...
>
>NOS adds a bunch of heat to the engine, so no, it doesn't help with cooling.

Ummmm..no, that;'s not what I said.
I said it requires a rather healthy mixture which helps with the
cooling (need created by the NOS)

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

>Basically, it's a safer way to add oxygen to the incoming air than injecting
>oxygen directly... so since the incoming air is now much more oxygen rich,
>you need a bunch more fuel, or your mixture will go very lean. In that
>sense, it's an alternative to turbocharging... but the NOS bottle will last
>a minute or so, OK for one takeoff... then what? :-)
>
>Paul, turbo Cardinal mode
>

[Roger Halstead]

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 07:05:04 -0400, "Morgans"
<jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> wrote:

>
>"Rich S." > wrote in message
...
>> "Morgans" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > It might work more better to have it blowing into the engine for this
>> > poster's intent. :-)
>> > --
>> > Jim in NC
>>
>> Ah.... but would it?
>>
>> Rich "Best use of horsepower?" S.
>>
>>
>
>So you think the leaf blower idea would be about as effective at increasing
>HP, as farting into the carb for the methane content?

I need to measure the pressure, but I'd guess the one I have with the
200 mph exhaust is about 15 inches or more.

However were it deadheaded, I don't know what it could do.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
>You may have a point. Anyone have some pressure gauge that could measure
>the small amounts of boost at the business end of a leaf blower? I would be
>curious to see what good one would do.
>
>Didn't a guy use a two cycle engine setup to boost his engine for a race
>lately? What kind of deal did he use?

[Darrel Toepfer]

"Morgans" > wrote...
<snip>
> Didn't a guy use a two cycle engine setup to boost his engine for a race
> lately? What kind of deal did he use?

A Rotax powered the blower that fed the main engine. Reason being was to
offset the race altitude, where it was held...

[Ernest Christley]

Johnboy wrote:
> I doubt that a leaf blower with a 200 mph exhaust will actually
> produce that much. I would guess about 1/2 a PSI. The turbo
> on my supra costs $2600, turns at 90,000 rpm, is attached to a
> 275HP engine, and only puts out 8 PSI.
> Do you really think a $40.00 leaf blower will compare?
>

First, how much you paid for it has absolutely nothing to do with how
much pressure it will produce.

Second, where are you finding $40 gas powered leaf blowers. I need one.



--
----Because I can----
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org/
------------------------

[RJ Cook]

If your blower has an exhaust velocity of 200 MPH the maximum pressure
recovery in a diffuser would be about .7 pounds/in2, realistically about .5
lbs/in2.

RJ

"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 07:05:04 -0400, "Morgans"
> <jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Rich S." > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> > It might work more better to have it blowing into the engine for this
> >> > poster's intent. :-)
> >> > --
> >> > Jim in NC
> >>
> >> Ah.... but would it?
> >>
> >> Rich "Best use of horsepower?" S.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >So you think the leaf blower idea would be about as effective at
increasing
> >HP, as farting into the carb for the methane content?
>
> I need to measure the pressure, but I'd guess the one I have with the
> 200 mph exhaust is about 15 inches or more.
>
> However were it deadheaded, I don't know what it could do.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
> N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
> >
> >You may have a point. Anyone have some pressure gauge that could measure
> >the small amounts of boost at the business end of a leaf blower? I would
be
> >curious to see what good one would do.
> >
> >Didn't a guy use a two cycle engine setup to boost his engine for a race
> >lately? What kind of deal did he use?
>

[Morgans]

"RJ Cook" > wrote in message
.. .
> If your blower has an exhaust velocity of 200 MPH the maximum pressure
> recovery in a diffuser would be about .7 pounds/in2, realistically about
..5
> lbs/in2.
>
> RJ

Sounds like a good swag. How does lbs/sq.-in relate to inches of mercury
(as in manifold pressure)?
--
Jim in NC

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Morgans"
<jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> writes:

>> If your blower has an exhaust velocity of 200 MPH the maximum pressure
>> recovery in a diffuser would be about .7 pounds/in2, realistically about
>.5
>> lbs/in2.
>>
>> RJ
>
>Sounds like a good swag. How does lbs/sq.-in relate to inches of mercury
>(as in manifold pressure)?
>--
>Jim in NC
>

With all this talk of using a gas powered blower would someone please explain
how that blower is going to overcome the effects of altitude and maintain the
same velocity of air. It is going to drop off in power just as the engine will
and at altitude its effect will be nil.

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Ernest Christley]

RobertR237 wrote:
>
> With all this talk of using a gas powered blower would someone please explain
> how that blower is going to overcome the effects of altitude and maintain the
> same velocity of air. It is going to drop off in power just as the engine will
> and at altitude its effect will be nil.
>

Bob, they've told you already. They're going to put a turbo on the
blower. Sheesh! 8*)

--
----Because I can----
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org/
------------------------

[Robert Bonomi]

In article >,
Morgans <jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> wrote:
>
>"RJ Cook" > wrote in message
.. .
>> If your blower has an exhaust velocity of 200 MPH the maximum pressure
>> recovery in a diffuser would be about .7 pounds/in2, realistically about
>.5
>> lbs/in2.
>>
>> RJ
>
>Sounds like a good swag. How does lbs/sq.-in relate to inches of mercury
>(as in manifold pressure)?

30" of mercury is nominally 14.7 psi.

For rough approximations just use a factor of 2

[RobertR237]

In article >, Ernest Christley
> writes:

>RobertR237 wrote:
>>
>> With all this talk of using a gas powered blower would someone please
>explain
>> how that blower is going to overcome the effects of altitude and maintain
>the
>> same velocity of air. It is going to drop off in power just as the engine
>will
>> and at altitude its effect will be nil.
>>
>
>Bob, they've told you already. They're going to put a turbo on the
>blower. Sheesh! 8*)
>
>

OK, and they are going to power the turbo with what?


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Scott VanderVeen]

A teeny tiny leaf blower from the Barbie Collection.

"> OK, and they are going to power the turbo with what?
>
>
> Bob Reed
> www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
> KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
> "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
> pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
> (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
>

[Morgans]

"> With all this talk of using a gas powered blower would someone please
explain
> how that blower is going to overcome the effects of altitude and maintain
the
> same velocity of air. It is going to drop off in power just as the engine
will
> and at altitude its effect will be nil.
>
> Bob Reed

"IF" you hook a leaf blower to pressurize the carb, and IF the carb was the
type that could deal with the pressure without building an airtight box
around it, and IF the CFM of the blower was high enough to be greater than
the CFM of the engine at WOT, and IF the blower had a carb that could adjust
to the altitude without going lean, and IF the blower still had a few inches
of mercury pressure left over after all of that, it would supply a sensation
of boost to the engine to raise the manifold pressure back up to what it was
at sea level while it was buzzing along at, say, 8,000 feet.

Yes, the blower wooould have lost some of its power compared to sea level,
but what I would propose is turbo normalizing, so the increased power is of
no use at sea level. Of course, it could be used to provide a boost for
take off and such.

Now, for all of the "IF"s !!! Not that many induction systems would
take the added pressure without modification. Then there is the regulating
valve for the turbonormalizing to deal with. I don't believe the CFM would
be enough to keep up with more than a small (40 -50 HP ?) engine. No one
has taken a pressure measurement from the home depot blower yet, so "I"
doubt that it could produce more than one or two inches of additional
pressure. (if that much)

More reasons why I doubt the validity of such a Rube Goldberg setup.

The superchargers that can do a good job of increasing manifold pressure use
more HP than a 31 cc motor could ever produce.

There is a reason the superchargers turn 80,000 RPM (some less, some more)
They have to, to produce enough boost pressure.

The superchargers also have very sophisticated impellers to deal with
airflow at these speed, and the home depot blower does not have any
sophistication.

Now I put out a disclaimer. This was not any of my idea, nor would I do
such a thing, but it is a semi-interesting mental exercise!

How's that? :-)
--
Jim in NC

[Rich S.]

"Morgans" <jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Yes, the blower wooould have lost some of its power compared to sea level,
> but what I would propose is turbo normalizing, so the increased power is
of
> no use at sea level. Of course, it could be used to provide a boost for
> take off and such.
>
> Now, for all of the "IF"s !!! Not that many induction systems would
> take the added pressure without modification.
<resnip>

But Jim. . . If the engine is just returned to sea level conditions, where
is the pressure? At your given example of 8000', the manifold pressure would
still be less than atmospheric pressure, would it not?

Rich S.

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Morgans"
<jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> writes:

>
> ANOTHER leaf blower, silly! :-)
>--
>Jim in NC
>
>

And another to help that one and another to help that one and.......

Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Morgans"
<jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> writes:

>
>Now I put out a disclaimer. This was not any of my idea, nor would I do
>such a thing, but it is a semi-interesting mental exercise!
>
>How's that? :-)
>--
>Jim in NC
>
>

I think you hit it with the Rube Goldberg comment. Like going around the world
to get across the street.



Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Big John]

I've got a electric (110VAC) leaf blower. If you put a converter on
your dc and came out with 110VAC you could use the electric leaf
blower and not have to worry about the gas leaf blower having altitude
problems (reduced power output) <G>

Where theres a will, theres a way.

If the leaf blower don't give any engine boost, then it could be used
for pilot cooling on the hot muggy days like we have here in Houston
vs A/C in the bird.


Big John
Pilot, ROC Air Force


On 08 Jul 2003 01:29:29 GMT, (RobertR237)
wrote:

>In article >, Ernest Christley
> writes:
>
>>RobertR237 wrote:
>>>
>>> With all this talk of using a gas powered blower would someone please
>>explain
>>> how that blower is going to overcome the effects of altitude and maintain
>>the
>>> same velocity of air. It is going to drop off in power just as the engine
>>will
>>> and at altitude its effect will be nil.
>>>
>>
>>Bob, they've told you already. They're going to put a turbo on the
>>blower. Sheesh! 8*)
>>
>>
>
>OK, and they are going to power the turbo with what?
>
>
>Bob Reed
>www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
>KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
>"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
>pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
>(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Big John]

Rich

Let me try to talk in lay terms (close enough for Government work as
they say) for the great unwashed masses <G>

1. Engine does not suck mixture into cylinder.
2. Piston comes up on exhaust stroke with exhaust valve open. At top,
exhaust valve closeses and intake valve opens. As piston descends it
creates a volume in the cylinder and ambient air pressure pushes
mixture into cylinder to fill that volume.
3. At sea level the air pressure is 14+ psi and puts 'X' amount of
mixture into cylinder.
4. At 18,000 ft (used because I remember from my Air Force altitude
training) the air pressure is 7.5 psi (half the sea level pressure).
5. With half the amount of mixture pushed into cylinder you get
reduced power out.
6. If you put a mechanical or turbo blower in system you can bring the
amount of (fuel-air) mixture back up to the same amount in cylinder
you get at sea level and will get sea level horse power.

A normally aspirated engine, not designed for a blower, has a higher
compression ratio than a engine designed for a blower. So if you add a
blower (mech or turbo) you are limited to 30 inches of MP (sea level
MP) to maintain engine longevity.

How does this fit in this thread?

No way will a leaf blower provide enough 'boost' to even offset the
weight of installation.

As some posts have said, "been a diverting subject to kick around". If
anyone can make it work they can make a fortune.

Big John
Pilot, ROC Air Force


On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:59:53 -0700, "Rich S."
> wrote:

>"Morgans" <jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> wrote in message
...
><snip>
>> Yes, the blower wooould have lost some of its power compared to sea level,
>> but what I would propose is turbo normalizing, so the increased power is
>of
>> no use at sea level. Of course, it could be used to provide a boost for
>> take off and such.
>>
>> Now, for all of the "IF"s !!! Not that many induction systems would
>> take the added pressure without modification.
><resnip>
>
>But Jim. . . If the engine is just returned to sea level conditions, where
>is the pressure? At your given example of 8000', the manifold pressure would
>still be less than atmospheric pressure, would it not?
>
>Rich S.
>

[RobertR237]

In article >, Big John
> writes:

>
>I've got a electric (110VAC) leaf blower. If you put a converter on
>your dc and came out with 110VAC you could use the electric leaf
>blower and not have to worry about the gas leaf blower having altitude
>problems (reduced power output) <G>
>
>Where theres a will, theres a way.
>
>If the leaf blower don't give any engine boost, then it could be used
>for pilot cooling on the hot muggy days like we have here in Houston
>vs A/C in the bird.
>
>
>Big John
>Pilot, ROC Air Force
>
>

On that last one we are in total agreement. Now what is your solution for
removing some of the humidity from that air? I was working in the garage this
morning at 7am and it was so warm and humid that I was having problems with the
sweat pouring off my forehead and streaking my glasses as well as dripping on
the work.






Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Rich S.]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Rich
>
> Let me try to talk in lay terms (close enough for Government work as
> they say) for the great unwashed masses <G>

<snipped cogent explanation of boost>

> No way will a leaf blower provide enough 'boost' to even offset the
> weight of installation.

BJ.......

We are in total agreement. I was saying the same thing - but not as clearly.
{:o}

Rich S.

[Morgans]

"Rich S." > wrote in message
...
> "Morgans" <jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > Yes, the blower wooould have lost some of its power compared to sea
level,
> > but what I would propose is turbo normalizing, so the increased power is
> of
> > no use at sea level. Of course, it could be used to provide a boost for
> > take off and such.
> >
> > Now, for all of the "IF"s !!! Not that many induction systems
would
> > take the added pressure without modification.
> <resnip>
>
> But Jim. . . If the engine is just returned to sea level conditions, where
> is the pressure? At your given example of 8000', the manifold pressure
would
> still be less than atmospheric pressure, would it not?
>
> Rich S.
>

I don't see what you don't see.

If there is an effective boost on the engine, the manifold pressure at WOT
will be the same at 8,000 ft as it is at sea level at WOT. An engine at
cruise at sea level will usually run a couple inches less than atmospheric
pressure. A normalized engine would run that same number at altitude, vs.
an un-normalized engine running the atmospheric pressure at that altitude
minus a couple inches pressure.

What was it we were discussing? <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Rich S." > wrote in message
...
> "Big John" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Rich
> >
> > Let me try to talk in lay terms (close enough for Government work as
> > they say) for the great unwashed masses <G>
>
> <snipped cogent explanation of boost>
>
> > No way will a leaf blower provide enough 'boost' to even offset the
> > weight of installation.
>
> BJ.......
>
> We are in total agreement. I was saying the same thing - but not as
clearly.
> {:o}
>
> Rich S.
>
>
As was I, if you caught the drift of all my "IF"s. I wish it would work,
but again, there is no free lunch, and not even a reduced price lunch. <g>
--
Jim in NC

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Morgans"
<jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> writes:

>
>One of my favorite subjects. I'm still young enough to remember how! <g>
>
>I "will" stop beating this horse. I think it is dead! <g>
>--
>Jim in NC
>
>

Not only is it dead, it has already been turned into dog food.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Del Rawlins]

On 08 Jul 2003 10:52 AM, RobertR237 posted the following:

> On that last one we are in total agreement. Now what is your solution
> for removing some of the humidity from that air? I was working in the
> garage this morning at 7am and it was so warm and humid that I was
> having problems with the sweat pouring off my forehead and streaking
> my glasses as well as dripping on the work.

Move. My garage is comfortable to work in year-round here in Anchorage,
Alaska. Occasionally I have to turn on the heat but it only takes a few
minutes to warm up.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[RobertR237]

In article >, Del Rawlins
> writes:

>
>Move. My garage is comfortable to work in year-round here in Anchorage,
>Alaska. Occasionally I have to turn on the heat but it only takes a few
>minutes to warm up.
>
>

Whoa there pardner...I hates the cold even more than the heat and Alaska it one
cold ass place. Hell, up there my ass would stick to that ICE every time I
tried to slide on it. At this time of year it is very tempting though.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Del Rawlins]

On 08 Jul 2003 05:59 PM, RobertR237 posted the following:

> Whoa there pardner...I hates the cold even more than the heat and
> Alaska it one cold ass place. Hell, up there my ass would stick to
> that ICE every time I tried to slide on it. At this time of year it
> is very tempting though.

Just don't get fishing/hunting season confused with building season and
you will do fine. As for sliding on the ice, hereabouts that is done
through intersections using tires.

Today it got up to over 80, which was semi annoying until we took the
windows out of the Jeep and went for a ride tonight. I'd be happy if it
was always 55-60 degrees, and with enough breeze to keep the skeeters
away.

And then there are always the plusses of having the highest pilot
population per capita, easier to get field approvals, backcountry
airports everywhere, a general public that actually likes small
airplanes, and the best scenery anywhere.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[Bushy]

<clip all the crap>

What I do here is to put a sprinkler on the roof and run it every time the
roof heats up. It oversprays on three or four sides (depends on hard I turn
it on) of my plane construction shed and as there are no gutters, waters the
gardens around it as well. If the wind is blowing it around, I have to close
the windows on one or two sides, but it's still the best cooling system for
the price I made it for:

1 old sprinkler found in my neighbours shed $0.00
1 garden hose from my neighbours back yard $0.00

At least on the farm, the water is available to do this without any problems
from neighbours or councils......

Hope this helps,
Peter

[Morgans]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> I'd suggest you get one or two of the 4 foot shop fans that sit on the
> floor. When I worked in my shop, they did a pretty good job of keeping
> me comfortable.
>
> Big John
> Point of the sword

I'll go you one better.

With all the money that is being spent on an airplane, why not spring for
just a little more an put AC in for the shop? Never quit again because of
the temperature, have control over pot times, and I'm sure there are a few
other good reasons.

Now that I have it, I'll never have another shop without it. Spoilt', ya
know! <g>

Life is to short, too be miserable while you are having fun!
--
Jim in NC

[Darrel Toepfer]

"Bushy" > wrote...
> <clip all the crap>

> it's still the best cooling system for the price I made it for:
>
> 1 old sprinkler found in my neighbours shed $0.00
> 1 garden hose from my neighbours back yard $0.00

What else does your neighbor have to offer? <g>

[RobertR237]

In article >, Barnyard BOb --
> writes:

>>>
>>
>>No, but I am willing...are there any jobs for greabearded IT people there?
>>
>>
>>Bob Reed
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>Dunno, but....
>What about becoming a Flying Saucer tour guide?
>I hear the benefits are 'out of this world'.
>
>
>Barnyard BOb -- groan
>

Sounds like some damn good benefits to me, where do I space-mail my resume?


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Bushy" >
writes:

><clip all the crap>
>
>What I do here is to put a sprinkler on the roof and run it every time the
>roof heats up. It oversprays on three or four sides (depends on hard I turn
>it on) of my plane construction shed and as there are no gutters, waters the
>gardens around it as well. If the wind is blowing it around, I have to close
>the windows on one or two sides, but it's still the best cooling system for
>the price I made it for:
>
>1 old sprinkler found in my neighbours shed $0.00
>1 garden hose from my neighbours back yard $0.00
>
>At least on the farm, the water is available to do this without any problems
>from neighbours or councils......
>
>Hope this helps,
>Peter
>

On really hot and sunny days that helps but not so much when its just 90
degrees and 90 percent humidity with broken clouds. I just love those daily
showers that cool things off for about 10 minutes before the sun comes back out
and produces a first quality steam bath.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[RobertR237]

In article >, Big John
> writes:

>
>I'd suggest you get one or two of the 4 foot shop fans that sit on the
>floor. When I worked in my shop, they did a pretty good job of keeping
>me comfortable.
>
>Big John
>Point of the sword
>

I put an airconditioner into the wall of the garage a couple of years ago and
it has helped a lot. The problem with it is the garage is not insulated and it
must be run overnight to bring the temp down and hold it most of the day. In
the current situation that would not have helped since I was working in the
greenhouse doing some staining and finishing on some doors. It is empty this
time of year and is the only place I had enough room to work. I have a couple
of big fans but could not use them without causing problems with the finish.
Just have to wear long sleves, grin, and bear it.



Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Richard Isakson]

"RobertR237" wrote ...
> Barnyard BOb writes:
> >Dunno, but....
> >What about becoming a Flying Saucer tour guide?
> >I hear the benefits are 'out of this world'.
>
> Sounds like some damn good benefits to me, where do I space-mail my
resume?

You have to carve it into a wheat field.

Rich

[Dillon Pyron]

On 08 Jul 2003 01:29:29 GMT, (RobertR237)
wrote:

>In article >, Ernest Christley
> writes:
>
>>RobertR237 wrote:
>>>
>>> With all this talk of using a gas powered blower would someone please
>>explain
>>> how that blower is going to overcome the effects of altitude and maintain
>>the
>>> same velocity of air. It is going to drop off in power just as the engine
>>will
>>> and at altitude its effect will be nil.
>>>
>>
>>Bob, they've told you already. They're going to put a turbo on the
>>blower. Sheesh! 8*)
>>
>>
>
>OK, and they are going to power the turbo with what?

All the hot air from this NG.

>
>
>Bob Reed
>www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
>KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
>"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
>pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
>(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

--
dillon

The pen may be mightier than the sword,
but a .sig never beat a SIG

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 07:42:27 -0400, "Morgans"
<jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> wrote:

>
>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>> I'd suggest you get one or two of the 4 foot shop fans that sit on the
>> floor. When I worked in my shop, they did a pretty good job of keeping
>> me comfortable.
>>
>> Big John
>> Point of the sword
>
>I'll go you one better.
>
>With all the money that is being spent on an airplane, why not spring for
>just a little more an put AC in for the shop? Never quit again because of
>the temperature, have control over pot times, and I'm sure there are a few
>other good reasons.
>
>Now that I have it, I'll never have another shop without it. Spoilt', ya
>know! <g>
>
>Life is to short, too be miserable while you are having fun!

Got air in the shop ready to start welding the fuselage of the
Pegazair any day now.

[Model Flyer]

"RobertR237" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Morgans"
> <jisumorgan@charterdotjunkdotnet> writes:
>

> >(as in manifold pressure)?
> >--
> >Jim in NC
> >
>
> With all this talk of using a gas powered blower would someone
please explain
> how that blower is going to overcome the effects of altitude and
maintain the
> same velocity of air. It is going to drop off in power just as the
engine will
> and at altitude its effect will be nil.
>

Bob, the simple answer is, the leaf blower is turbo charged.:-)
--

..
--
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe
modelflyer at antispam dot net

Antispam trap in place


> Bob Reed
> www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
> KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
> "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
> pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
> (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
>

[Robert Bonomi]

In article >,
RobertR237 > wrote:
>In article >, clare @ snyder.on .ca
>writes:
>
>>>
>>You want to try 115F and 105% humidity. Threat of rain for about 3
>>weeks before it finally comes, then 114 inches in 12 weeks. Rain comes
>>down in bucketfuls for about 15 minutes, then the sun comes out and
>>the puddles boil away in less than an hour. Mushrooms between your
>>toes and in your armpits!!
>>That was Livingstone Zambia October - November 1973/74!!!
>>
>>Next 9 months you could guarantee rainless days and nights.
>>
>>
>
>The 115 with 100% is close but how the hell do you get 105% humidity?


"super-saturated solution". Really.

[dann mann]

How about one of the new miniature turbine engines used on model
aircraft. Duct it so the exhaust would feed directly into the carb of
the main engine on take off and shut the turbine off for cruise. These
cost about 1500 bucks now and weigh about 10 lbs.

[Wooduuuward]

There used to be an add on kit that fed water vapor into the carb, which
increased performance. They used them on Spitfires during WWll and on
cars in the seventies. H20 = hydrogen and oxygen.

Morgans wrote:
>
> "dann mann" > wrote in message
> ...
> > How about one of the new miniature turbine engines used on model
> > aircraft. Duct it so the exhaust would feed directly into the carb of
> > the main engine on take off and shut the turbine off for cruise. These
> > cost about 1500 bucks now and weigh about 10 lbs.
>
> Uh, bzzzzt. No. How about the nearly no oxygen content the engine is
> feeding the other engine. Besides for 1500 bucks, there are proven methods.
> --
> Jim in NC

[Bushy]

> >The 115 with 100% is close but how the hell do you get 105% humidity?
>
> "super-saturated solution". Really.
>

In other words, it's raining. There is more moisture than the 100% that the
air can support and so it falls.

Hope this helps,
Peter

[Tim Ward]

"Wooduuuward" > wrote in message
...
> There used to be an add on kit that fed water vapor into the carb, which
> increased performance. They used them on Spitfires during WWll and on
> cars in the seventies. H20 = hydrogen and oxygen.

Better yet, feed in wood smoke, and you can spit two-by-fours out the
exhaust.
Water is hydrogen and oxygen that has already been burned.

Water injection is used to prevent preignition, though.

Tim Ward

[Bushy]

Water injection has been used for years to allow a motor to run with more
spark advance and or compression and or boost. Without the water, pinking
(or pinging, depends on what school you went to!) will occur earlier and
this limits the power of the engine without it self-destructing.

There are two schools of thought whether the water turning into steam inside
the cylinder is significant, and a search of the net will find several sites
that disagree.

Can be added to a car with a junkies needle (available free at your local
needle exchange) a bit of rubber tubing and a water container. Changing the
gauge of the needle allows different flow rates.

Hope this helps,
Peter

"Wooduuuward" > wrote in message
...
> There used to be an add on kit that fed water vapor into the carb, which
> increased performance. They used them on Spitfires during WWll and on
> cars in the seventies. H20 = hydrogen and oxygen.
>
> Morgans wrote:
> >
> > "dann mann" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > How about one of the new miniature turbine engines used on model
> > > aircraft. Duct it so the exhaust would feed directly into the carb of
> > > the main engine on take off and shut the turbine off for cruise. These
> > > cost about 1500 bucks now and weigh about 10 lbs.
> >
> > Uh, bzzzzt. No. How about the nearly no oxygen content the engine is
> > feeding the other engine. Besides for 1500 bucks, there are proven
methods.
> > --
> > Jim in NC

[Big John]

Yep.

When I had my Company in the Oil Patch and was inventing things in the
shop and patenting them.

Big John
BSME


On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 23:45:30 +0100, "Model Flyer" >
wrote:

>
>"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>> I'd suggest you get one or two of the 4 foot shop fans that sit on
>the
>> floor. When I worked in my shop, they did a pretty good job of
>keeping
>> me comfortable.
>>
>
>You Worked?
>--
>
>.

[Big John]

Water injection in WWII aircraft engines was basically to prevent
detonation with high MP. Believe the Jug had it on their R-2800 P & W
engines. Could pull 90 inches with water as I recall???

Some early jets had water injection. Ferried a F-94A/B that had water.
Used on T/O and you used all to prevent any residual from freezing in
tamk and lines at altiude (-50 F).

Big John
Point of the sword.

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:35:52 -0400, Wooduuuward >
wrote:

>There used to be an add on kit that fed water vapor into the carb, which
>increased performance. They used them on Spitfires during WWll and on
>cars in the seventies. H20 = hydrogen and oxygen.
>
>Morgans wrote:
>>
>> "dann mann" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > How about one of the new miniature turbine engines used on model
>> > aircraft. Duct it so the exhaust would feed directly into the carb of
>> > the main engine on take off and shut the turbine off for cruise. These
>> > cost about 1500 bucks now and weigh about 10 lbs.
>>
>> Uh, bzzzzt. No. How about the nearly no oxygen content the engine is
>> feeding the other engine. Besides for 1500 bucks, there are proven methods.
>> --
>> Jim in NC

[RobertR237]

In article >, "Model Flyer"
> writes:

>
>Bob, the simple answer is, the leaf blower is turbo charged.:-)
>--
>
>.
>--
>Cheers,
>Jonathan Lowe
>modelflyer at antispam dot net
>

Damn, why didn't I think of that? Now where can I buy one of those turbo
charged leaf blowers? I am tired of climbing on top of my high pitched roof to
blow pine needles and one of those should do the trick in short order.




Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[bob zee]

"Richard Lamb" > wrote in message
...
> How about building a 2180.
>
> Personally, I'd not fly a turbocharged VW.
>
> Ever.
>
> Richard

this observation come from personal experience?

--
bob z.

"people with less brain power than you are doing more difficult things
everyday"©

[Bart D. Hull]

into intellectual contests and/or berating others ideas?

I thought the weed eater / supercharger idea was novel as well as the
water injection idea. Why can't we continue with this brainstorming
without attacking anyone's ideas? How else can "crazy" ideas be explored
for practical application.

I saw a weedeater used as a "pony" motor to start a Lyc or Cont on a
aircraft that didn't have (want) an electrical system.

Sure beat hand propping.

Just my 2 cents. (I'm the "crazy" guy that's going to use a Turbo'd
Subaru in my "Fast Glass" kit. Isn't that what the E in EAA means?)


--
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html for my Subaru Engine
Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html for Tango II I'm
building.



Morgans wrote:
> "Wooduuuward" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>There used to be an add on kit that fed water vapor into the carb, which
>>increased performance. They used them on Spitfires during WWll and on
>>cars in the seventies. H20 = hydrogen and oxygen.
>>
>
>
> BZZZZZZT. No.
>
> The water fed into engines is to cool the gas air charge, and keep it from
> detonating, with really high levels of boost. Like over 100 inches of
> manifold pressure.
>
> This was used on many types of high performance applications today, and on
> planes today such as at Reno.

[Dave Hyde]

Big John wrote:

> Some early jets had water injection.

Some current jets still do. KC-135 IIRC, and AV-8B.
Little bitta cooling, lotta extra massflow.
Different principle than water injection on
recips, but fun to use all the same. <g>

Dave 'oomph' Hyde

[pac plyer]

Big John > wrote in message >...
> Water injection in WWII aircraft engines was basically to prevent
> detonation with high MP. Believe the Jug had it on their R-2800 P & W
> engines. Could pull 90 inches with water as I recall???
>
> Some early jets had water injection. Ferried a F-94A/B that had water.
> Used on T/O and you used all to prevent any residual from freezing in
> tamk and lines at altiude (-50 F).
>
> Big John
> Point of the sword.

Pac sez:

Caution: Tall Flight Engineer story follows:

Believe it or not they also did it with heavy 747's! Climbed aboard
this 200 series 747 in Anchorage, the wind chill was -7 dgrs Far.
Almost got lost during the preflight in the blowing snow! Put my
Union-negotiated extreme wx parka back into the Union-negotiated lock
box (thought it was silly up till this morning!)

Thought to myself well, the hard part of this trip is over.. Then
after putzing around with the PA system for ten minutes (Dammit Jim!
I'm just a cargo doctor, not a passenger Engineer!) I was given the
expected passenger count: 535 including crew! More bad news: Auto
pressurization inop! In fact only Manual Available for six plus
hours...God, should've studied that procedure better in grd schoooool.
Stop everything.... get manual out for man pressurization... yikes
...seven pages to read!

Fourteen flight attendants later: "Ding Ding Ding": the
soon-to-be-familiar song: "It's too hot, It's too cold.. You're too
young, I'm too old!" Damn... most of those girls are over 50 and none
of them (not even the "ball-bearing" stew knows how to fix anything
down there. "Two movie projectors won't power up, and several
beverage cart locks won't release!" Holy ****, Captain.... forget the
safety of flight items... the sky nags have summoned me downstairs for
the really important stuff! What the hell... push is not for
another... damn... fifteen minutes!... Down the stairs I go, into...
a sea of un-amused faces... least I remembered my damn hat... looks
impressive... maybe they will not ask me any revealing questions...

"Hey kid, is this you're first flight!" a GI asks. I tell him that as
a matter of fact, it is (without a babysitter) "How old are you?"he
asks.

"Old enough to drive this thing" (I lie; cuz I'm only the oiler) "Been
nice chatting.. gotta go."

Meanwhile back upstairs: I corkscrew back up into the cockpit, and
discover bodies everywhere: mechanics, flight attendants, gate
agents....squirm into my seat...still got five minutes to preflight...
lets go....

UH, OH... lots of switches are not in the right places... and there's
a bunch I was never trained on.... damn..... well better just focus on
fuel... ****... even its like nothing in the book. Focus.. focus...
"Ding Ding Ding"

"Before start checklist" calls Cpt Prescott, and I start doing the
disco, since it is my unfortunate job to turn all four of these five
million dollar fans and try not to roast any of them.

Picture sweat pouring out of my forehead; like in the movie "airplane"

We start to take the runway and I'm almost caught up... I struggle to
turn my unlubed S/O seat forward for t/o and them I see them down low
on the s/o's accessory panel... Four huge switches labeled "WATER
PUMPS..eng 1, eng 2 eng 3 eng 4.. MUST BE ON FOR T/O"

"Uhhhhh... Capin Sir.... uuuhh does this thing have water injection?"
I stammer as he spools up the big pratts for t/o.

Luckily, the snickering co-pilot that knew this might happen, lets me
in on the secret: "Dave, they're deactivated..."

Later, he also tells the new boy about the "deact" stickers that have
been falling off for years (won't stick to that surface I guess) the
INS bump that will occur when the computers switch hemispheres and the
fact that Asian females have.... well you get the idea.


At least they didn't make me get a tattoo or an ear ring...


pacplyer

[Richard Lamb]

bob zee wrote:
>
> "Richard Lamb" > wrote in message
> ...
> > How about building a 2180.
> >
> > Personally, I'd not fly a turbocharged VW.
> >
> > Ever.
> >
> > Richard
>
> this observation come from personal experience?
>
> --
> bob z.
>
> "people with less brain power than you are doing more difficult things
> everyday"©

Yep. We have a lot of VW powered airplanes around here.
Heck, I've had two myself, and a new one about to hatch.

A home brew VW engine making 50 HP or so is one thing.

A home brew turbo is another breed of cat completely.

I'll happily let those with less brain power have at it.

Either they'll design a good waste gate control system,
or they will blow the engine (real bad pun).

There is what you know you know,
What you know you don't know,
What don't know you know,
and what you don't know you don't know.

That last one seems to cause a lot of problems.

[Robert Bonomi]

In article >,
Bushy > wrote:
>> >The 115 with 100% is close but how the hell do you get 105% humidity?
>>
>> "super-saturated solution". Really.
>>
>
>In other words, it's raining.

*WRONG*. If it _is_ raining, the humidity is somewhat -less- than 100%

> There is more moisture than the 100% that the
>air can support and so it falls.
>
>Hope this helps,

A super-saturated solution is one of those strange "special cases", where
'common sense' is *not* accurate.

A simple description is that it _is_ holding more than it theoretically _can_,
contradictory as that sounds.

It comes about when you have a near-saturation condition, and the temperature
drops significantly.

*USUALLY*, when the concentration hits 100%, the 'excess' will start to pre-
cipitate out as the temperature continues to fall.

In rare instances, however, the precipitation does _not_ start as you reach,
*and*cross*, the 100% level.

This is, obviously, a "highly unstable", situation. Any sort of 'disturbance',
and the _entire_ "excess' will 'fall out', essentially 'in an instant'.


There's a fairly standard college physics experiment, where you make a pan-ful
of a near-saturated solution, using _warm_ water, and place it in a freezer.
You then run the temperaturd down, _below_ the freezing point of a saturated
(cold water) solution. The super-saturated solution does *not* freeze solid.
Then you reach in, and touch the pan. "Clunk" -- a whole sh*tload of stuff
precipitates out of solution, and the entire pan freezes solid. *INSTANTLY*.
_AND_ the pan gets too hot to touch.

The assignment is to list all the energy reactions involved. Essentially
explain "exactly what happened, in what sequence, and _why_".

[Big John]

Bob

Get a heat gun and deactivate the heating element. Put a 12/24 VDC
motor on to replace the 110 VAC one. Use blower to turbo your leaf
blower. Just think out of the box.

Big John
Point of the sword


On 10 Jul 2003 15:30:28 GMT, (RobertR237)
wrote:

>In article >, "Model Flyer"
> writes:
>
>>
>>Bob, the simple answer is, the leaf blower is turbo charged.:-)
>>--
>>
>>.
>>--
>>Cheers,
>>Jonathan Lowe
>>modelflyer at antispam dot net
>>
>
>Damn, why didn't I think of that? Now where can I buy one of those turbo
>charged leaf blowers? I am tired of climbing on top of my high pitched roof to
>blow pine needles and one of those should do the trick in short order.
>
>
>
>
>Bob Reed
>www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
>KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
>"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
>pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
>(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Wooduuuward]

Okay, I know I'll get clobbered by BOb on this idea but here's
at it.
There was a guy in California who spent a lot of time tinkering with
propeller mechanics. Now this was done to figure out how to wring
out more energy from the wind for those electrical wind generators
who's designers seem to always copy the airplane propeller to catch the
energy from the wind.
Now I read this in Popular Science and was fascinated with his findings.
So much so that I wondered why the reverse couldn't happen.
Namely, take his redesigned wind machine propeller and use it on
an aircraft. The reason? He managed to prove his design could get
45% efficiency from the wind rather than the 12% from the airplane
propeller. Anyway, his working model impressed Popular Science Mag
enough to publish his results for wind generators.
So . . this propeller could make a 50 HP VW motor very . . . ?

*p.s. those % are from memory.


Richard Lamb wrote:
>
> Yep. We have a lot of VW powered airplanes around here.
> Heck, I've had two myself, and a new one about to hatch.
>
> A home brew VW engine making 50 HP or so is one thing.
>
> A home brew turbo is another breed of cat completely.
>
> I'll happily let those with less brain power have at it.o

[RobertR237]

In article >, Big John
> writes:

>
>Bob
>
>Get a heat gun and deactivate the heating element. Put a 12/24 VDC
>motor on to replace the 110 VAC one. Use blower to turbo your leaf
>blower. Just think out of the box.
>
>Big John
>Point of the sword
>
>

Ah hell, can I just hire a 16 year old kid and have him do it?


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Barnyard BOb --]

Wooduuuward wrote:

>Okay, I know I'll get clobbered by BOb on this idea but here's
>at it.
>There was a guy in California who spent a lot of time tinkering....
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nah.
Not on this post of yours.

You are so far into Looney Tunes and Popular Science,
I'll just sit this one out, thank you. <g>

Catch ya later, Woody.


Barnyard BOb

[Morgans]

"Wooduuuward" > wrote in message
...
>
> Okay, I know I'll get clobbered by BOb on this idea but here's
> at it.
> There was a guy in California who spent a lot of time tinkering with
> propeller mechanics. Now this was done to figure out how to wring
> out more energy from the wind for those electrical wind generators
> who's designers seem to always copy the airplane propeller to catch the
> energy from the wind.
> Now I read this in Popular Science and was fascinated with his findings.
> So much so that I wondered why the reverse couldn't happen.
> Namely, take his redesigned wind machine propeller and use it on
> an aircraft. The reason? He managed to prove his design could get
> 45% efficiency from the wind rather than the 12% from the airplane
> propeller. Anyway, his working model impressed Popular Science Mag
> enough to publish his results for wind generators.
> So . . this propeller could make a 50 HP VW motor very . . . ?
>
> *p.s. those % are from memory.


There you go again.

1. the airfoil on a wind generating prop has the camber on the opposite
side from an airplane prop. He was lucky to get 45%

2. The usual range of efficiency on an airplane prop is not 12%. It is
closer to saying 12% in-efficient!

There are LOTS of very smart people doing the propeller thing. You, or any
other backyard carver, will not improve on it.

Suggestion. Stick around and just read for a year or so, without posting.
You will be amazed at how much you learn you didn't know.
--
Jim in NC

[Model Flyer]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Bob
>
> Get a heat gun and deactivate the heating element. Put a 12/24 VDC
> motor on to replace the 110 VAC one. Use blower to turbo your leaf
> blower. Just think out of the box.
>

Some of the hair driers use a 12volt motor in series with the heater,
if he used one of those all he would have to do is remove the element
and connect directely to the bat.
--

..
--
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe
modelflyer at antispam dot net

Antispam trap in place


> Big John
> Point of the sword
>
>
> On 10 Jul 2003 15:30:28 GMT, (RobertR237)
> wrote:
>
> >In article >, "Model Flyer"
> > writes:
> >
> >>
> >>Bob, the simple answer is, the leaf blower is turbo charged.:-)
> >>--
> >>
> >>.
> >>--
> >>Cheers,
> >>Jonathan Lowe
> >>modelflyer at antispam dot net
> >>
> >
> >Damn, why didn't I think of that? Now where can I buy one of
those turbo
> >charged leaf blowers? I am tired of climbing on top of my high
pitched roof to
> >blow pine needles and one of those should do the trick in short
order.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Bob Reed
> >www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
> >KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
> >
> >"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
> >pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
> >(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
>