solo with Aspergers

[Phoenix]

Are there any CFI-Gs who have taught prospective pilots with Aspergers? I'd like to hear what their challenges are / were.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, 6 December 2020 at 20:32:18 UTC, Phoenix wrote:
> Are there any CFI-Gs who have taught prospective pilots with Aspergers? I'd like to hear what their challenges are / were.
I'm sure that (in 38 years of active instructing in gliders) I have taught many pupils with varying degrees of Asperger's, without any difficulties over the technical aspects ("Can they do it both safely and reliably?"). But all pupils vary greatly in many ways, from manual dexterity to personal interaction!

You can find online definitions for Asperger's Syndrome, as well as the lengthy screeds! The one which I found clearest is
"An autistic disorder most notable for sometimes great discrepancy between intellectual and social ability."

In my own words:
Difficulty with understanding how to interact socially, especially with 'reading' other peoples' feelings and intentions, and with avoiding causing offence by saying things which, though true, can be seen as rather harsh.
(Note that it's important not to equate social clumsiness with lack of intelligence in non-emotional matters.)

About 12 years ago (aged 60) I came to the realisation that I am an Asperger's case myself. I'm fairly sure that no-one that I know or have dealings with would have suspected it. All would see me has a very able and successful man, but a bit 'wooden' socially: the result of having to think hard about social interaction, which most people find instinctive.
And I think I can fairly claim to be a very successful software engineer and glider pilot, and a well-received instructor. But of course "I would say that, wouldn't I?" (:^)
J.

[Jim Kellett]

On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 3:32:18 PM UTC-5, Phoenix wrote:
> Are there any CFI-Gs who have taught prospective pilots with Aspergers? I'd like to hear what their challenges are / were.

Aspberger's per se is no longer recognized as a specific syndrome in the spectrum of autism. We had a high functioning autistic student whose personality sucked, but he eventually could safely fly. And I was surprised to learn that there are autistic airline pilots, and very good ones - apparently one aspect of the syndrome is the intense intention to detail works well in some high functioning autistic persons in the cockpit!

[Phoenix]

On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 9:15:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Sunday, 6 December 2020 at 20:32:18 UTC, Phoenix wrote:
> > Are there any CFI-Gs who have taught prospective pilots with Aspergers? I'd like to hear what their challenges are / were.
> I'm sure that (in 38 years of active instructing in gliders) I have taught many pupils with varying degrees of Asperger's, without any difficulties over the technical aspects ("Can they do it both safely and reliably?"). But all pupils vary greatly in many ways, from manual dexterity to personal interaction!
>
> You can find online definitions for Asperger's Syndrome, as well as the lengthy screeds! The one which I found clearest is
> "An autistic disorder most notable for sometimes great discrepancy between intellectual and social ability."
>
> In my own words:
> Difficulty with understanding how to interact socially, especially with 'reading' other peoples' feelings and intentions, and with avoiding causing offence by saying things which, though true, can be seen as rather harsh.
> (Note that it's important not to equate social clumsiness with lack of intelligence in non-emotional matters.)
>
> About 12 years ago (aged 60) I came to the realisation that I am an Asperger's case myself. I'm fairly sure that no-one that I know or have dealings with would have suspected it. All would see me has a very able and successful man, but a bit 'wooden' socially: the result of having to think hard about social interaction, which most people find instinctive.
> And I think I can fairly claim to be a very successful software engineer and glider pilot, and a well-received instructor. But of course "I would say that, wouldn't I?" (:^)
> J.
Thank you for your reply. I have a 14 year old glider student who has Asperger's. You wouldn't notice he had "issues" except that he has difficulty keeping eye contact with those with whom he was talking. Concerns I had / have are:
1) Comprehension of glider training texts
1) Physical ability to manipulate three axis control
3) Ability to put aviation knowledge into actual practice
4) Ability to multi task - especially under pressure

As it turns out, he is flying gliders exceptionally well, performing above the norm. His comprehension of the training tests is now of no concern. His actual flying is butter smooth. My concern is...... should I solo him (when ready) or require him to only fly with a qualified ride pilot?

[[email protected]]

On Monday, 7 December 2020 at 15:03:21 UTC, Jim Kellett wrote:
> Aspberger's per se is no longer recognized as a specific syndrome in the spectrum of autism. We had a high functioning autistic student whose personality sucked, but he eventually could safely fly. And I was surprised to learn that there are autistic airline pilots, and very good ones - apparently one aspect of the syndrome is the intense intention to detail works well in some high functioning autistic persons in the cockpit!

Hmmm! I am aware that the APA's DSM-5 has folded "Asperger's" into "Autism Spectrum", but it remains a useful idea for us mere mortals!
May I point out that the law (at least in the UK) draws no distinction between "private motor car" and "sports car", but people find the latter term useful nonetheless!
J.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, 7 December 2020 at 15:30:12 UTC, Phoenix wrote:

> Thank you for your reply. I have a 14 year old glider student who has Asperger's. You wouldn't notice he had "issues" except that he has difficulty keeping eye contact with those with whom he was talking. Concerns I had / have are:
> 1) Comprehension of glider training texts
> 1) Physical ability to manipulate three axis control
> 3) Ability to put aviation knowledge into actual practice
> 4) Ability to multi task - especially under pressure
>
> As it turns out, he is flying gliders exceptionally well, performing above the norm. His comprehension of the training tests is now of no concern. His actual flying is butter smooth. My concern is...... should I solo him (when ready) or require him to only fly with a qualified ride pilot?

I'm not an expert on psychological/psychiatric matters, much less a clinician (see v. recent reply to Jim Kellet).
But I would say that the solo question needs to be handled the same way as with any other student. How do we do that? Who can say, apart from from observation, and judgement of character based on our own experience as instructors. And of course we will have put them through their paces more than once without *any* help or encouragement of any sort: if asked about anything on such a flight I have a stock reply "You're flying it!", always delivered in the same flat voice, even if I am within a couple of seconds from taking over! It's amazing how much a pupil can read your mind ... but some (at any age) can be unduly unsettled by an anti-social stony silence.
I would say that consistency from day to day, and resilience to pressure and emotional distractions are of more concern with the very young - whether Aspies or not. I have flown with several students that young: mainly they were fairly mature in their approach, but none of them happened to be close to solo. Of course, many adult students also have difficulties with your listed concerns!
J.

[Phoenix]

On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 11:01:28 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Monday, 7 December 2020 at 15:30:12 UTC, Phoenix wrote:
>
> > Thank you for your reply. I have a 14 year old glider student who has Asperger's. You wouldn't notice he had "issues" except that he has difficulty keeping eye contact with those with whom he was talking. Concerns I had / have are:
> > 1) Comprehension of glider training texts
> > 1) Physical ability to manipulate three axis control
> > 3) Ability to put aviation knowledge into actual practice
> > 4) Ability to multi task - especially under pressure
> >
> > As it turns out, he is flying gliders exceptionally well, performing above the norm. His comprehension of the training tests is now of no concern. His actual flying is butter smooth. My concern is...... should I solo him (when ready) or require him to only fly with a qualified ride pilot?
> I'm not an expert on psychological/psychiatric matters, much less a clinician (see v. recent reply to Jim Kellet).
> But I would say that the solo question needs to be handled the same way as with any other student. How do we do that? Who can say, apart from from observation, and judgement of character based on our own experience as instructors. And of course we will have put them through their paces more than once without *any* help or encouragement of any sort: if asked about anything on such a flight I have a stock reply "You're flying it!", always delivered in the same flat voice, even if I am within a couple of seconds from taking over! It's amazing how much a pupil can read your mind ... but some (at any age) can be unduly unsettled by an anti-social stony silence.
> I would say that consistency from day to day, and resilience to pressure and emotional distractions are of more concern with the very young - whether Aspies or not. I have flown with several students that young: mainly they were fairly mature in their approach, but none of them happened to be close to solo. Of course, many adult students also have difficulties with your listed concerns!
> J.

Over the decades I've solo'd several 14 yr. olds with some continuing on thru today. As I prepare a student for solo, I'll tell them that my objective for the next series of flight is for me to not say anything - as if I'm not there. I allow them to make mistakes and then for them to ascertain the possible corrections, choose the most viable and then execute it - all without a word from the back seat. I also require them to vocalize their thoughts / actions during this procedure.
Of course, a concern is how this student will handle an actual stressful situation later on in his flying. I personally believe for a power pilot to become as safe as can be, he / she should acquire around 700 flight hours. How many hours do you believe a glider pilot should have before also becoming "safe as can be expected"?

[George Haeh]

I've been saying for some time that: You don't have to be obsessive /compulsive to be a glider pilot, but it helps.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, 7 December 2020 at 16:42:16 UTC, Phoenix wrote:

> Over the decades I've solo'd several 14 yr. olds with some continuing on thru today. As I prepare a student for solo, I'll tell them that my objective for the next series of flight is for me to not say anything - as if I'm not there. I allow them to make mistakes and then for them to ascertain the possible corrections, choose the most viable and then execute it - all without a word from the back seat. I also require them to vocalize their thoughts / actions during this procedure.
> Of course, a concern is how this student will handle an actual stressful situation later on in his flying. I personally believe for a power pilot to become as safe as can be, he / she should acquire around 700 flight hours. How many hours do you believe a glider pilot should have before also becoming "safe as can be expected"?

Fourteen as a minimum solo age has been a relatively recent arrival in the UK: 2012, I think.Â* But for the last 14 years most of my instructing has been with more experienced pilots, in the French Alps.Â* So not a huge amount of ab initio work.
Anyway: Yes, I brief them like that, too.Â* But some of them still try to elicit a response when they are uncertain, and can then be freaked out by a silence - hence the stock reply.
I don't generally push students to talk about what they're doing - until the debrief.Â* Many find talking difficult while flying (the Aspies particularly, perhaps: after all, it's social interaction), and I can see what they're doingÂ*anyway.
As to hours, I wouldn't put figures on it.Â* For glider pilots, number of launches is usually informative for solo standard (but absolutely not involved in the decision - merely as a first idea of how to approach a previously unknown pupil);Â* but bear in mind that most gliding instruction in the UK is based on winch launching.Â* Number of landings is probably the most important numerical factor, for all of us.
Beyond solo, all depends on how you define "as safe as can be expected".Â* Much of it depends on the pilot's self-knowledge; having a strong sense of getting close to one's own limitations is vital, at all levels.Â* Personally, at 7000+ hours in gliders, and 900+ hours (with 4500+ landings) in power (mostly tugging), I hope I'm still learning (no, this is not just "virtue signalling"), and often give myself a good talking to** after the event!
J.
** I would have said "ticking off" rather than "talking to", but perhaps that would be (at best) ambiguous outside the UK?

[C-FFKQ (42)]

First off, I have Asperger's. Secondly, I'm a long-time glider pilot and instructor. I (and my club) have trained several student pilots with Autism Spectrum Disorder over the years, some successfully, some not.

The main area I see as problematic is "Executive Function". This is partly the ability to problem-solve, to create a series of logical steps to reach a desired conclusion. "What if" situations can be very difficult, especially as the stress levels increase. Keeping control of emotions is also part of Executive Function, so not getting into a panic situation as the stress rises can be a challenge.

One conversation I had with a parent when I wouldn't send a kid solo... "How well does he drive the car?" "Oh, we don't trust him to drive the car!" "Then why do you expect me to turn him loose in an airplane?" He was technically a decent student pilot -- when things were going well -- but he could get frustrated and "shut down" when things went awry (Like being asked to divert to a different runway, even with plenty of safety margin).

Just remember, "If you've met one person with autism, you've met ONE person with autism" (Dr. Steven Shore). Find out the weaknesses and work on them.. Find out the strengths and use those to offset the weaknesses. It might take longer to get to solo, the person may never solo, the person may get through the training without problems. It all depends on the person.

- John

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, 8 December 2020 at 17:55:48 UTC, C-FFKQ (42) wrote:
> ... It all depends on the person.

Well said!
J.

[Phoenix]

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 1:08:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Tuesday, 8 December 2020 at 17:55:48 UTC, C-FFKQ (42) wrote:
> > ... It all depends on the person.
>
> Well said!
> J.


I thank you all for your wisdom

[Walt Connelly]

On Sunday, 6 December 2020 at 20:32:18 UTC, Phoenix wrote:
Are there any CFI-Gs who have taught prospective pilots with Aspergers? I'd like to hear what their challenges are / were.
I'm sure that (in 38 years of active instructing in gliders) I have taught many pupils with varying degrees of Asperger's, without any difficulties over the technical aspects ("Can they do it both safely and reliably?"). But all pupils vary greatly in many ways, from manual dexterity to personal interaction!

You can find online definitions for Asperger's Syndrome, as well as the lengthy screeds! The one which I found clearest is
"An autistic disorder most notable for sometimes great discrepancy between intellectual and social ability."

In my own words:
Difficulty with understanding how to interact socially, especially with 'reading' other peoples' feelings and intentions, and with avoiding causing offence by saying things which, though true, can be seen as rather harsh.
(Note that it's important not to equate social clumsiness with lack of intelligence in non-emotional matters.)

About 12 years ago (aged 60) I came to the realisation that I am an Asperger's case myself. I'm fairly sure that no-one that I know or have dealings with would have suspected it. All would see me has a very able and successful man, but a bit 'wooden' socially: the result of having to think hard about social interaction, which most people find instinctive.
And I think I can fairly claim to be a very successful software engineer and glider pilot, and a well-received instructor. But of course "I would say that, wouldn't I?" (:^)
J.

Self diagnosis can frequently be problematic. The fact that you are a successful software engineer leads me to believe you may be right in your assessment.

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot.

[Walt Connelly]

On Sunday, December 6, 2020 at 3:32:18 PM UTC-5, Phoenix wrote:
Are there any CFI-Gs who have taught prospective pilots with Aspergers? I'd like to hear what their challenges are / were.

Aspberger's per se is no longer recognized as a specific syndrome in the spectrum of autism. We had a high functioning autistic student whose personality sucked, but he eventually could safely fly. And I was surprised to learn that there are autistic airline pilots, and very good ones - apparently one aspect of the syndrome is the intense intention to detail works well in some high functioning autistic persons in the cockpit!

Not infrequently Aspies feel the personalities of many "neurotypicals" suck, especially the petulant, truculent types. While their social skills might not be up to the standards of many you will rarely find the Aspie to be the trouble maker. They generally are the more "normal" types.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.

[Walt Connelly]

On Monday, December 7, 2020 at 9:15:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, 6 December 2020 at 20:32:18 UTC, Phoenix wrote:
Are there any CFI-Gs who have taught prospective pilots with Aspergers? I'd like to hear what their challenges are / were.
I'm sure that (in 38 years of active instructing in gliders) I have taught many pupils with varying degrees of Asperger's, without any difficulties over the technical aspects ("Can they do it both safely and reliably?"). But all pupils vary greatly in many ways, from manual dexterity to personal interaction!

You can find online definitions for Asperger's Syndrome, as well as the lengthy screeds! The one which I found clearest is
"An autistic disorder most notable for sometimes great discrepancy between intellectual and social ability."

In my own words:
Difficulty with understanding how to interact socially, especially with 'reading' other peoples' feelings and intentions, and with avoiding causing offence by saying things which, though true, can be seen as rather harsh.
(Note that it's important not to equate social clumsiness with lack of intelligence in non-emotional matters.)

About 12 years ago (aged 60) I came to the realisation that I am an Asperger's case myself. I'm fairly sure that no-one that I know or have dealings with would have suspected it. All would see me has a very able and successful man, but a bit 'wooden' socially: the result of having to think hard about social interaction, which most people find instinctive.
And I think I can fairly claim to be a very successful software engineer and glider pilot, and a well-received instructor. But of course "I would say that, wouldn't I?" (:^)
J.
Thank you for your reply. I have a 14 year old glider student who has Asperger's. You wouldn't notice he had "issues" except that he has difficulty keeping eye contact with those with whom he was talking. Concerns I had / have a
1) Comprehension of glider training texts
1) Physical ability to manipulate three axis control
3) Ability to put aviation knowledge into actual practice
4) Ability to multi task - especially under pressure

As it turns out, he is flying gliders exceptionally well, performing above the norm. His comprehension of the training tests is now of no concern. His actual flying is butter smooth. My concern is...... should I solo him (when ready) or require him to only fly with a qualified ride pilot?

So forget for a moment your knowledge of his place on the spectrum. Would you otherwise solo him? It would appear that implied bias is taking hold here.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

[Walt Connelly]

First off, I have Asperger's. Secondly, I'm a long-time glider pilot and instructor. I (and my club) have trained several student pilots with Autism Spectrum Disorder over the years, some successfully, some not.

The main area I see as problematic is "Executive Function". This is partly the ability to problem-solve, to create a series of logical steps to reach a desired conclusion. "What if" situations can be very difficult, especially as the stress levels increase. Keeping control of emotions is also part of Executive Function, so not getting into a panic situation as the stress rises can be a challenge.

One conversation I had with a parent when I wouldn't send a kid solo... "How well does he drive the car?" "Oh, we don't trust him to drive the car!" "Then why do you expect me to turn him loose in an airplane?" He was technically a decent student pilot -- when things were going well -- but he could get frustrated and "shut down" when things went awry (Like being asked to divert to a different runway, even with plenty of safety margin).

Just remember, "If you've met one person with autism, you've met ONE person with autism" (Dr. Steven Shore). Find out the weaknesses and work on them.. Find out the strengths and use those to offset the weaknesses. It might take longer to get to solo, the person may never solo, the person may get through the training without problems. It all depends on the person.

- John
My experience has been that it is never a good thing to share your place on the spectrum with others, the bias and prejudice that can occur can be problematic. Most Asperger's are highly intelligent and can learn that which is necessary to fly quite safely. As is always the case there are exceptions to the rule, individual evaluation is critical. Although not an instructor myself I have seen many students in both power and gliders who should not be flying and many if not most are among the "Neurotypical' crowd.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.