Transponder installation article- Soaring Magazine

[[email protected]]

Within the past 2-3 years, someone did a very nice article on installing a transponder, I believe it was a Trig21 or 22, in their DG303. I've searched but can't find the article/issue. Does anyone recall this or happen to know the issue?
Thanks

[Dan Marotta]

On 12/14/20 11:22 AM, wrote:
> Within the past 2-3 years, someone did a very nice article on installing a transponder, I believe it was a Trig21 or 22, in their DG303. I've searched but can't find the article/issue. Does anyone recall this or happen to know the issue?
> Thanks
>

I installed a Trig 22 in my Stemme and one in my gyroplane. It's
straight forward especially if you also buy a pre made harness. Simply:

1. Find a place and install the remote box.
2 Install the control head in the panel.
3 Connect the control head with the remote box using the purchased
cable. (You can make your own cable if you're handy with that, the
connectors and pins are included with the transponder.
4. Connect 12v and ground to the red and black (respectively) wires.
5. Connect the static line to the static ports using the supplied
T-fitting.
6. Install the antenna and connect the coax to the transponder
7. Power on and configure per the instructions.

If you're also installing ADS-B, it's even easier than the steps above:

1. Install the GPS,
2. Connect the GPS to the transponder. It's powered via the Y-cable
(ordered separately)
3. Mount the GPS antenna and connect the coax cable.
4. Power on and configure per the instructions.

Hope that takes the mystery out of it.

--
Dan
5J

[kinsell]

On 12/14/20 11:22 AM, wrote:
> Within the past 2-3 years, someone did a very nice article on installing a transponder, I believe it was a Trig21 or 22, in their DG303. I've searched but can't find the article/issue. Does anyone recall this or happen to know the issue?
> Thanks
>


http://ourdigitalmags.com/publication/?i=563086&p=34

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 3:28:01 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 12/14/20 11:22 AM, wrote:
> > Within the past 2-3 years, someone did a very nice article on installing a transponder, I believe it was a Trig21 or 22, in their DG303. I've searched but can't find the article/issue. Does anyone recall this or happen to know the issue?
> > Thanks
> >
> I installed a Trig 22 in my Stemme and one in my gyroplane. It's
> straight forward especially if you also buy a pre made harness. Simply:
>
> 1. Find a place and install the remote box.
> 2 Install the control head in the panel.
> 3 Connect the control head with the remote box using the purchased
> cable. (You can make your own cable if you're handy with that, the
> connectors and pins are included with the transponder.
> 4. Connect 12v and ground to the red and black (respectively) wires.
> 5. Connect the static line to the static ports using the supplied
> T-fitting.
> 6. Install the antenna and connect the coax to the transponder
> 7. Power on and configure per the instructions.
>
> If you're also installing ADS-B, it's even easier than the steps above:
>
> 1. Install the GPS,
> 2. Connect the GPS to the transponder. It's powered via the Y-cable
> (ordered separately)
> 3. Mount the GPS antenna and connect the coax cable.
> 4. Power on and configure per the instructions.
>
> Hope that takes the mystery out of it.
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J



I can supply custom length cables that power both the TT22 and TN72.

http://www.craggyaero.com/transponder.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[2G]

On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 3:28:01 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 12/14/20 11:22 AM, wrote:
> > Within the past 2-3 years, someone did a very nice article on installing a transponder, I believe it was a Trig21 or 22, in their DG303. I've searched but can't find the article/issue. Does anyone recall this or happen to know the issue?
> > Thanks
> >
> I installed a Trig 22 in my Stemme and one in my gyroplane. It's
> straight forward especially if you also buy a pre made harness. Simply:
>
> 1. Find a place and install the remote box.
> 2 Install the control head in the panel.
> 3 Connect the control head with the remote box using the purchased
> cable. (You can make your own cable if you're handy with that, the
> connectors and pins are included with the transponder.
> 4. Connect 12v and ground to the red and black (respectively) wires.
> 5. Connect the static line to the static ports using the supplied
> T-fitting.
> 6. Install the antenna and connect the coax to the transponder
> 7. Power on and configure per the instructions.
>
> If you're also installing ADS-B, it's even easier than the steps above:
>
> 1. Install the GPS,
> 2. Connect the GPS to the transponder. It's powered via the Y-cable
> (ordered separately)
> 3. Mount the GPS antenna and connect the coax cable.
> 4. Power on and configure per the instructions.
>
> Hope that takes the mystery out of it.
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J

To that list I will add one more item: you must get installation tested and inspected by an FAA approved avionics repair station with an entry to that effect made in the glider's logbook prior to use. This check must be repeated every 24 months.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.413

Tom

[[email protected]]

A few random notes from my TT22 installation:

- From the Trig Installation Manual: "The transponder power input is not protected against reversed power connections. Reversing the power and ground inputs to the transponder will destroy it. Check wiring before applying power."
-- A proven hazard demonstrated (luckily) by someone else

- Common sense for all transmitters but not obvious on a transponder: Make sure the antenna is connected before any transmission takes place. When is that? Generally, anytime the transponder is on GND, ON, or ALT switch mode and it gets and replies to an interrogation. SBY mode use (e.g., for initial TT21/22 SETUP programming) should be OK without having the antenna connected. But it's easy to mistakenly turn past SBY onto one of the "transmit" positions. So it's best to have the antenna connected before powering on.

- If you plan to have ADS-B Out by integrating a Trig TN70 or TN72, both the firmware on the TC20 control head AND the main transponder (TT21/22) must be of a certain version number or later (like v1.14 and v2.12, respectively). An authorized Trig dealer can confirm the current requirements and upgrade your firmware as needed.
-- The firmware versions are displayed very briefly on the control head screen after powering on. I video'd the sequence and replayed it several times to catch the numbers.

[[email protected]]

After installation and testing are complete, take a flight and the check your FAA performance report here:
https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx

Mine flunked the first time. I had one of the configuration settings wrong, but it was easily sorted out with information provided by Prof. Pfiffner:
http://www.craggyaero.com/tt22_tn72_settings.htm

Cheers,
...david


On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 5:02:52 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> A few random notes from my TT22 installation:
>
> - From the Trig Installation Manual: "The transponder power input is not protected against reversed power connections. Reversing the power and ground inputs to the transponder will destroy it. Check wiring before applying power."
> -- A proven hazard demonstrated (luckily) by someone else
>
> - Common sense for all transmitters but not obvious on a transponder: Make sure the antenna is connected before any transmission takes place. When is that? Generally, anytime the transponder is on GND, ON, or ALT switch mode and it gets and replies to an interrogation. SBY mode use (e.g., for initial TT21/22 SETUP programming) should be OK without having the antenna connected. But it's easy to mistakenly turn past SBY onto one of the "transmit" positions. So it's best to have the antenna connected before powering on.
>
> - If you plan to have ADS-B Out by integrating a Trig TN70 or TN72, both the firmware on the TC20 control head AND the main transponder (TT21/22) must be of a certain version number or later (like v1.14 and v2.12, respectively). An authorized Trig dealer can confirm the current requirements and upgrade your firmware as needed.
> -- The firmware versions are displayed very briefly on the control head screen after powering on. I video'd the sequence and replayed it several times to catch the numbers.

[India November[_2_]]

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 6:51:42 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> After installation and testing are complete, take a flight and the check your FAA performance report here:
> https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx
>
> Mine flunked the first time. I had one of the configuration settings wrong, but it was easily sorted out with information provided by Prof. Pfiffner:
> http://www.craggyaero.com/tt22_tn72_settings.htm
>
> Cheers,
> ...david
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 5:02:52 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > A few random notes from my TT22 installation:
> >
> > - From the Trig Installation Manual: "The transponder power input is not protected against reversed power connections. Reversing the power and ground inputs to the transponder will destroy it. Check wiring before applying power."
> > -- A proven hazard demonstrated (luckily) by someone else
> >
> > - Common sense for all transmitters but not obvious on a transponder: Make sure the antenna is connected before any transmission takes place. When is that? Generally, anytime the transponder is on GND, ON, or ALT switch mode and it gets and replies to an interrogation. SBY mode use (e.g., for initial TT21/22 SETUP programming) should be OK without having the antenna connected. But it's easy to mistakenly turn past SBY onto one of the "transmit" positions. So it's best to have the antenna connected before powering on..
> >
> > - If you plan to have ADS-B Out by integrating a Trig TN70 or TN72, both the firmware on the TC20 control head AND the main transponder (TT21/22) must be of a certain version number or later (like v1.14 and v2.12, respectively). An authorized Trig dealer can confirm the current requirements and upgrade your firmware as needed.
> > -- The firmware versions are displayed very briefly on the control head screen after powering on. I video'd the sequence and replayed it several times to catch the numbers.


I am thinking of installing a TRIG xponder for next season, maybe with ADS-B, but this would mean installing multiple GPS antennas (FLARM, C302, Xponder) and I'm running out of room under the glareshield.

Questions for the experts out there: need there be a minimum spacing between GPS antennas (i.e. do they interact); and is there a way to connect one GPS antenna to feed one or more boxes?

Thanks!
Ian IN

[Dan Marotta]

On 12/15/20 3:02 AM, wrote:
> A few random notes from my TT22 installation:
>
> - From the Trig Installation Manual: "The transponder power input is not protected against reversed power connections. Reversing the power and ground inputs to the transponder will destroy it. Check wiring before applying power."
> -- A proven hazard demonstrated (luckily) by someone else
>
> - Common sense for all transmitters but not obvious on a transponder: Make sure the antenna is connected before any transmission takes place. When is that? Generally, anytime the transponder is on GND, ON, or ALT switch mode and it gets and replies to an interrogation. SBY mode use (e.g., for initial TT21/22 SETUP programming) should be OK without having the antenna connected. But it's easy to mistakenly turn past SBY onto one of the "transmit" positions. So it's best to have the antenna connected before powering on.
>
> - If you plan to have ADS-B Out by integrating a Trig TN70 or TN72, both the firmware on the TC20 control head AND the main transponder (TT21/22) must be of a certain version number or later (like v1.14 and v2.12, respectively). An authorized Trig dealer can confirm the current requirements and upgrade your firmware as needed.
> -- The firmware versions are displayed very briefly on the control head screen after powering on. I video'd the sequence and replayed it several times to catch the numbers.
>
Good information about the firmware. I had to send the control head for
the TT22 in the Stemme to the avionics shop for upgrade. There was no
charge for the service IIRC.

--
Dan
5J

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:56:33 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 12/15/20 3:02 AM, wrote:
> > A few random notes from my TT22 installation:
> >
> > - From the Trig Installation Manual: "The transponder power input is not protected against reversed power connections. Reversing the power and ground inputs to the transponder will destroy it. Check wiring before applying power."
> > -- A proven hazard demonstrated (luckily) by someone else
> >
> > - Common sense for all transmitters but not obvious on a transponder: Make sure the antenna is connected before any transmission takes place. When is that? Generally, anytime the transponder is on GND, ON, or ALT switch mode and it gets and replies to an interrogation. SBY mode use (e.g., for initial TT21/22 SETUP programming) should be OK without having the antenna connected. But it's easy to mistakenly turn past SBY onto one of the "transmit" positions. So it's best to have the antenna connected before powering on..
> >
> > - If you plan to have ADS-B Out by integrating a Trig TN70 or TN72, both the firmware on the TC20 control head AND the main transponder (TT21/22) must be of a certain version number or later (like v1.14 and v2.12, respectively). An authorized Trig dealer can confirm the current requirements and upgrade your firmware as needed.
> > -- The firmware versions are displayed very briefly on the control head screen after powering on. I video'd the sequence and replayed it several times to catch the numbers.
> >
> Good information about the firmware. I had to send the control head for
> the TT22 in the Stemme to the avionics shop for upgrade. There was no
> charge for the service IIRC.
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J
Thank you all for the help and information, as wel as the link to the original article. We're considering installing a trig22 with ADS-B out for or glider, which also happens to be a DG303 as in the article.
Thanks

[Dan Marotta]

On 12/15/20 10:15 AM, wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:56:33 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> On 12/15/20 3:02 AM, wrote:
>>> A few random notes from my TT22 installation:
>>>
>>> - From the Trig Installation Manual: "The transponder power input is not protected against reversed power connections. Reversing the power and ground inputs to the transponder will destroy it. Check wiring before applying power."
>>> -- A proven hazard demonstrated (luckily) by someone else
>>>
>>> - Common sense for all transmitters but not obvious on a transponder: Make sure the antenna is connected before any transmission takes place. When is that? Generally, anytime the transponder is on GND, ON, or ALT switch mode and it gets and replies to an interrogation. SBY mode use (e.g., for initial TT21/22 SETUP programming) should be OK without having the antenna connected. But it's easy to mistakenly turn past SBY onto one of the "transmit" positions. So it's best to have the antenna connected before powering on.
>>>
>>> - If you plan to have ADS-B Out by integrating a Trig TN70 or TN72, both the firmware on the TC20 control head AND the main transponder (TT21/22) must be of a certain version number or later (like v1.14 and v2.12, respectively). An authorized Trig dealer can confirm the current requirements and upgrade your firmware as needed.
>>> -- The firmware versions are displayed very briefly on the control head screen after powering on. I video'd the sequence and replayed it several times to catch the numbers.
>>>
>> Good information about the firmware. I had to send the control head for
>> the TT22 in the Stemme to the avionics shop for upgrade. There was no
>> charge for the service IIRC.
>>
>> --
>> Dan
>> 5J
> Thank you all for the help and information, as wel as the link to the original article. We're considering installing a trig22 with ADS-B out for or glider, which also happens to be a DG303 as in the article.
> Thanks
>
If your DG303 is experimental, then get the TN72 GPS and TA50 antenna.
Those are what I installed in my gyro and they work perfectly. No need
to buy the gigantic TA70 antenna which is a pain to mount and costs a
bunch more. I mounted my TA50 antenna on the glare shield of the gyro
using the sticky back tape that came with it. It hasn't moved in 150
hours of flying plus ground ops.

--
Dan
5J

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 1:34:24 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 12/15/20 10:15 AM, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:56:33 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> On 12/15/20 3:02 AM, wrote:
> >>> A few random notes from my TT22 installation:
> >>>
> >>> - From the Trig Installation Manual: "The transponder power input is not protected against reversed power connections. Reversing the power and ground inputs to the transponder will destroy it. Check wiring before applying power."
> >>> -- A proven hazard demonstrated (luckily) by someone else
> >>>
> >>> - Common sense for all transmitters but not obvious on a transponder: Make sure the antenna is connected before any transmission takes place. When is that? Generally, anytime the transponder is on GND, ON, or ALT switch mode and it gets and replies to an interrogation. SBY mode use (e.g., for initial TT21/22 SETUP programming) should be OK without having the antenna connected. But it's easy to mistakenly turn past SBY onto one of the "transmit" positions. So it's best to have the antenna connected before powering on.
> >>>
> >>> - If you plan to have ADS-B Out by integrating a Trig TN70 or TN72, both the firmware on the TC20 control head AND the main transponder (TT21/22) must be of a certain version number or later (like v1.14 and v2.12, respectively). An authorized Trig dealer can confirm the current requirements and upgrade your firmware as needed.
> >>> -- The firmware versions are displayed very briefly on the control head screen after powering on. I video'd the sequence and replayed it several times to catch the numbers.
> >>>
> >> Good information about the firmware. I had to send the control head for
> >> the TT22 in the Stemme to the avionics shop for upgrade. There was no
> >> charge for the service IIRC.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dan
> >> 5J
> > Thank you all for the help and information, as wel as the link to the original article. We're considering installing a trig22 with ADS-B out for or glider, which also happens to be a DG303 as in the article.
> > Thanks
> >
> If your DG303 is experimental, then get the TN72 GPS and TA50 antenna.
> Those are what I installed in my gyro and they work perfectly. No need
> to buy the gigantic TA70 antenna which is a pain to mount and costs a
> bunch more. I mounted my TA50 antenna on the glare shield of the gyro
> using the sticky back tape that came with it. It hasn't moved in 150
> hours of flying plus ground ops.
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J

Yes, our 303 is experimental so the trig22 seems like the best way to go. I imagine we'll be also opting for the ADS-B option given the relatively low cost and ease to do so.

[Greg Palmer]

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 7:56:09 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 1:34:24 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > On 12/15/20 10:15 AM, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:56:33 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >> On 12/15/20 3:02 AM, wrote:
> > >>> A few random notes from my TT22 installation:
> > >>>
> > >>> - From the Trig Installation Manual: "The transponder power input is not protected against reversed power connections. Reversing the power and ground inputs to the transponder will destroy it. Check wiring before applying power."
> > >>> -- A proven hazard demonstrated (luckily) by someone else
> > >>>
> > >>> - Common sense for all transmitters but not obvious on a transponder: Make sure the antenna is connected before any transmission takes place. When is that? Generally, anytime the transponder is on GND, ON, or ALT switch mode and it gets and replies to an interrogation. SBY mode use (e.g., for initial TT21/22 SETUP programming) should be OK without having the antenna connected. But it's easy to mistakenly turn past SBY onto one of the "transmit" positions. So it's best to have the antenna connected before powering on.
> > >>>
> > >>> - If you plan to have ADS-B Out by integrating a Trig TN70 or TN72, both the firmware on the TC20 control head AND the main transponder (TT21/22) must be of a certain version number or later (like v1.14 and v2.12, respectively). An authorized Trig dealer can confirm the current requirements and upgrade your firmware as needed.
> > >>> -- The firmware versions are displayed very briefly on the control head screen after powering on. I video'd the sequence and replayed it several times to catch the numbers.
> > >>>
> > >> Good information about the firmware. I had to send the control head for
> > >> the TT22 in the Stemme to the avionics shop for upgrade. There was no
> > >> charge for the service IIRC.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Dan
> > >> 5J
> > > Thank you all for the help and information, as wel as the link to the original article. We're considering installing a trig22 with ADS-B out for or glider, which also happens to be a DG303 as in the article.
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > If your DG303 is experimental, then get the TN72 GPS and TA50 antenna.
> > Those are what I installed in my gyro and they work perfectly. No need
> > to buy the gigantic TA70 antenna which is a pain to mount and costs a
> > bunch more. I mounted my TA50 antenna on the glare shield of the gyro
> > using the sticky back tape that came with it. It hasn't moved in 150
> > hours of flying plus ground ops.
> >
> > --
> > Dan
> > 5J
> Yes, our 303 is experimental so the trig22 seems like the best way to go. I imagine we'll be also opting for the ADS-B option given the relatively low cost and ease to do so.

It was my article and install in Soaring. I have lots more pictures and some great wiring diagrams made by John DeRosa, email me or call with any questions or help needed. Greg Palmer 847-922-1234

[2G]

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 5:56:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 1:34:24 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > On 12/15/20 10:15 AM, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:56:33 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >> On 12/15/20 3:02 AM, wrote:
> > >>> A few random notes from my TT22 installation:
> > >>>
> > >>> - From the Trig Installation Manual: "The transponder power input is not protected against reversed power connections. Reversing the power and ground inputs to the transponder will destroy it. Check wiring before applying power."
> > >>> -- A proven hazard demonstrated (luckily) by someone else
> > >>>
> > >>> - Common sense for all transmitters but not obvious on a transponder: Make sure the antenna is connected before any transmission takes place. When is that? Generally, anytime the transponder is on GND, ON, or ALT switch mode and it gets and replies to an interrogation. SBY mode use (e.g., for initial TT21/22 SETUP programming) should be OK without having the antenna connected. But it's easy to mistakenly turn past SBY onto one of the "transmit" positions. So it's best to have the antenna connected before powering on.
> > >>>
> > >>> - If you plan to have ADS-B Out by integrating a Trig TN70 or TN72, both the firmware on the TC20 control head AND the main transponder (TT21/22) must be of a certain version number or later (like v1.14 and v2.12, respectively). An authorized Trig dealer can confirm the current requirements and upgrade your firmware as needed.
> > >>> -- The firmware versions are displayed very briefly on the control head screen after powering on. I video'd the sequence and replayed it several times to catch the numbers.
> > >>>
> > >> Good information about the firmware. I had to send the control head for
> > >> the TT22 in the Stemme to the avionics shop for upgrade. There was no
> > >> charge for the service IIRC.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Dan
> > >> 5J
> > > Thank you all for the help and information, as wel as the link to the original article. We're considering installing a trig22 with ADS-B out for or glider, which also happens to be a DG303 as in the article.
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > If your DG303 is experimental, then get the TN72 GPS and TA50 antenna.
> > Those are what I installed in my gyro and they work perfectly. No need
> > to buy the gigantic TA70 antenna which is a pain to mount and costs a
> > bunch more. I mounted my TA50 antenna on the glare shield of the gyro
> > using the sticky back tape that came with it. It hasn't moved in 150
> > hours of flying plus ground ops.
> >
> > --
> > Dan
> > 5J
> Yes, our 303 is experimental so the trig22 seems like the best way to go. I imagine we'll be also opting for the ADS-B option given the relatively low cost and ease to do so.

I had the ADS-B out option installed on my ASH31Mi using the TT22 and the TN72, and highly recommend it. You will be much more visible to both ATC and airliners with TCAS. A big bonus is the power consumption of this pair is very low. I only wish this was permitted for certificated gliders.

Tom

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 5:14:23 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 5:56:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 1:34:24 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > On 12/15/20 10:15 AM, wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:56:33 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > >> On 12/15/20 3:02 AM, wrote:
> > > >>> A few random notes from my TT22 installation:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> - From the Trig Installation Manual: "The transponder power input is not protected against reversed power connections. Reversing the power and ground inputs to the transponder will destroy it. Check wiring before applying power."
> > > >>> -- A proven hazard demonstrated (luckily) by someone else
> > > >>>
> > > >>> - Common sense for all transmitters but not obvious on a transponder: Make sure the antenna is connected before any transmission takes place.. When is that? Generally, anytime the transponder is on GND, ON, or ALT switch mode and it gets and replies to an interrogation. SBY mode use (e.g., for initial TT21/22 SETUP programming) should be OK without having the antenna connected. But it's easy to mistakenly turn past SBY onto one of the "transmit" positions. So it's best to have the antenna connected before powering on.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> - If you plan to have ADS-B Out by integrating a Trig TN70 or TN72, both the firmware on the TC20 control head AND the main transponder (TT21/22) must be of a certain version number or later (like v1.14 and v2.12, respectively). An authorized Trig dealer can confirm the current requirements and upgrade your firmware as needed.
> > > >>> -- The firmware versions are displayed very briefly on the control head screen after powering on. I video'd the sequence and replayed it several times to catch the numbers.
> > > >>>
> > > >> Good information about the firmware. I had to send the control head for
> > > >> the TT22 in the Stemme to the avionics shop for upgrade. There was no
> > > >> charge for the service IIRC.
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Dan
> > > >> 5J
> > > > Thank you all for the help and information, as wel as the link to the original article. We're considering installing a trig22 with ADS-B out for or glider, which also happens to be a DG303 as in the article.
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > If your DG303 is experimental, then get the TN72 GPS and TA50 antenna..
> > > Those are what I installed in my gyro and they work perfectly. No need
> > > to buy the gigantic TA70 antenna which is a pain to mount and costs a
> > > bunch more. I mounted my TA50 antenna on the glare shield of the gyro
> > > using the sticky back tape that came with it. It hasn't moved in 150
> > > hours of flying plus ground ops.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dan
> > > 5J
> > Yes, our 303 is experimental so the trig22 seems like the best way to go. I imagine we'll be also opting for the ADS-B option given the relatively low cost and ease to do so.
> I had the ADS-B out option installed on my ASH31Mi using the TT22 and the TN72, and highly recommend it. You will be much more visible to both ATC and airliners with TCAS. A big bonus is the power consumption of this pair is very low. I only wish this was permitted for certificated gliders.
>
> Tom
Yes. I'm definitely interested in pursuing this... thanks for all the info and help.
Gregg. I'm sure I'll be in touch once the holidays settle down a little bit, this has been put on the backburner during the holidays. I always thought adding a transponder would be a good idea, but after a much more closer than comfortable encounter with another aircraft that I'm sure never saw me, it has become a priority. Adding the ADS-B out unit is in rhe plans as well.

[John Johnson]

Should I assume it is not legal in the US to use a TT21 with a TN72 for ADS-B out in an experimental glider? That combination is ok in Europe (I think) with the difference being the US wants 2x the xmit power for ADS-B (TT22 at 250W) vs the 125W output of the TT21. I would like to think that having otherwise compliant, lower power ADS-B out is better (and not illegal) than no ADS-B out in an aircraft that is legal without ADS-B.
Probably not a realistic hope - but it would save me the not trivial expense of upgrading my TT21 to a TT22.

JJ

[[email protected]]

Get the TT22. Don't consider the TT21. It could save you about $150 on a $2500 USD purchase but does not provide full ADS-B compliance. In the USA this means a TT21 does not allow you to fly in transponder-required airspace. The TT22 provides a full ADS-B out solution and more transmit power, yet its power consumption is identical to the TT21, according to Trig's spec sheets.

For an experimental glider you can use the same GPS receiver and antenna that you would find in a TT21 ADS-B out package (Trig TN72 and Trig TA50), so the only added cost is the $150 to upgrade to the TT22.

...david

On Monday, December 21, 2020 at 7:19:22 PM UTC-5, John Johnson wrote:
> Should I assume it is not legal in the US to use a TT21 with a TN72 for ADS-B out in an experimental glider? That combination is ok in Europe (I think) with the difference being the US wants 2x the xmit power for ADS-B (TT22 at 250W) vs the 125W output of the TT21. I would like to think that having otherwise compliant, lower power ADS-B out is better (and not illegal) than no ADS-B out in an aircraft that is legal without ADS-B.
> Probably not a realistic hope - but it would save me the not trivial expense of upgrading my TT21 to a TT22.
>
> JJ

[Brian Roach]

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 7:53:22 AM UTC-5, India November wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 6:51:42 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > After installation and testing are complete, take a flight and the check your FAA performance report here:
> > https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx
> >
> > Mine flunked the first time. I had one of the configuration settings wrong, but it was easily sorted out with information provided by Prof. Pfiffner:
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/tt22_tn72_settings.htm
> >
> > Cheers,
> > ...david
> > On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 5:02:52 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > A few random notes from my TT22 installation:
> > >
> > > - From the Trig Installation Manual: "The transponder power input is not protected against reversed power connections. Reversing the power and ground inputs to the transponder will destroy it. Check wiring before applying power."
> > > -- A proven hazard demonstrated (luckily) by someone else
> > >
> > > - Common sense for all transmitters but not obvious on a transponder: Make sure the antenna is connected before any transmission takes place. When is that? Generally, anytime the transponder is on GND, ON, or ALT switch mode and it gets and replies to an interrogation. SBY mode use (e.g., for initial TT21/22 SETUP programming) should be OK without having the antenna connected. But it's easy to mistakenly turn past SBY onto one of the "transmit" positions. So it's best to have the antenna connected before powering on.
> > >
> > > - If you plan to have ADS-B Out by integrating a Trig TN70 or TN72, both the firmware on the TC20 control head AND the main transponder (TT21/22) must be of a certain version number or later (like v1.14 and v2.12, respectively). An authorized Trig dealer can confirm the current requirements and upgrade your firmware as needed.
> > > -- The firmware versions are displayed very briefly on the control head screen after powering on. I video'd the sequence and replayed it several times to catch the numbers.
> I am thinking of installing a TRIG xponder for next season, maybe with ADS-B, but this would mean installing multiple GPS antennas (FLARM, C302, Xponder) and I'm running out of room under the glareshield.
>
> Questions for the experts out there: need there be a minimum spacing between GPS antennas (i.e. do they interact); and is there a way to connect one GPS antenna to feed one or more boxes?
>
> Thanks!
> Ian IN

Relative to multiple GPS antennas under the glare shield, I'm afraid nothing is simple in this world.

I have a standard category install (TRIG TN 70, big TA 70 GPS antenna), plus two other GPS antennas (FLARM, LX9000) about 6 inches away. No ill effects noted on anything after a good season of flying. I originally was leaning towards a splitter, but decided to try separate antennas first after considering the following.

You can get splitters/combiners/hybrids, but necessarily will lose ~4dB per 'split'. The GPS antennas are active, so each receiver will put a few volts DC on the coaxial antenna cable to power the amplifier integrated into the antenna. With multiple receivers you need a DC coupled branch on the splitter for only one receiver, and DC blocks on the other branches. Once you have this figured out, you need to look at the receiver specifications, since some interpret an open DC circuit as an antenna fault. Simple, huh?

Cheers,
Brian
MM

[John Johnson]

On Monday, December 21, 2020 at 6:23:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Get the TT22. Don't consider the TT21. It could save you about $150 on a $2500 USD purchase but does not provide full ADS-B compliance. In the USA this means a TT21 does not allow you to fly in transponder-required airspace.. The TT22 provides a full ADS-B out solution and more transmit power, yet its power consumption is identical to the TT21, according to Trig's spec sheets.
>
> For an experimental glider you can use the same GPS receiver and antenna that you would find in a TT21 ADS-B out package (Trig TN72 and Trig TA50), so the only added cost is the $150 to upgrade to the TT22.
>
> ...david
> On Monday, December 21, 2020 at 7:19:22 PM UTC-5, John Johnson wrote:
> > Should I assume it is not legal in the US to use a TT21 with a TN72 for ADS-B out in an experimental glider? That combination is ok in Europe (I think) with the difference being the US wants 2x the xmit power for ADS-B (TT22 at 250W) vs the 125W output of the TT21. I would like to think that having otherwise compliant, lower power ADS-B out is better (and not illegal) than no ADS-B out in an aircraft that is legal without ADS-B.
> > Probably not a realistic hope - but it would save me the not trivial expense of upgrading my TT21 to a TT22.
> >
> > JJ
Fully agree a new purchase should be a TT22. Unfortunately, my glider has been setup with mode-S TT21 for some time now. I understand it costs ~$1000 or so to have an existing TT21 upgraded to TT22 specs. Since I can't see any practical need for my glider to have the 2x xmit power compliance, I'd like to save the $1000 and, perhaps, spend it in the future when the next wave of new transponder compliance requirements come about. I could always perform the upgrade later if that made sense for me.

thx, JJ

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

John Johnson wrote on 12/22/2020 10:38 AM:
> On Monday, December 21, 2020 at 6:23:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>> Get the TT22. Don't consider the TT21. It could save you about $150 on a $2500 USD purchase but does not provide full ADS-B compliance. In the USA this means a TT21 does not allow you to fly in transponder-required airspace.. The TT22 provides a full ADS-B out solution and more transmit power, yet its power consumption is identical to the TT21, according to Trig's spec sheets.
>>
>> For an experimental glider you can use the same GPS receiver and antenna that you would find in a TT21 ADS-B out package (Trig TN72 and Trig TA50), so the only added cost is the $150 to upgrade to the TT22.
>>
>> ...david
>> On Monday, December 21, 2020 at 7:19:22 PM UTC-5, John Johnson wrote:
>>> Should I assume it is not legal in the US to use a TT21 with a TN72 for ADS-B out in an experimental glider? That combination is ok in Europe (I think) with the difference being the US wants 2x the xmit power for ADS-B (TT22 at 250W) vs the 125W output of the TT21. I would like to think that having otherwise compliant, lower power ADS-B out is better (and not illegal) than no ADS-B out in an aircraft that is legal without ADS-B.
>>> Probably not a realistic hope - but it would save me the not trivial expense of upgrading my TT21 to a TT22.
>>>
>>> JJ
> Fully agree a new purchase should be a TT22. Unfortunately, my glider has been setup with mode-S TT21 for some time now. I understand it costs ~$1000 or so to have an existing TT21 upgraded to TT22 specs. Since I can't see any practical need for my glider to have the 2x xmit power compliance, I'd like to save the $1000 and, perhaps, spend it in the future when the next wave of new transponder compliance requirements come about. I could always perform the upgrade later if that made sense for me.
>

I suggest you keep your TT21, but install a TN72 with a TA50 antenna (total equipment cost of
about $460). You can't use it to enter A, B, and C airspace, though there are probably some
exceptions for glider operating areas (and maybe others), but you otherwise have all the
features the TT22 would give you. Here's the Trig document for gliders:

https://www.trig-avionics.com/library/TN72%20Glider%20installation%20-%20ADS-B%20guidance%20slides%20-%20August%202018.pdf

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[John Johnson]

On Tuesday, December 22, 2020 at 11:56:51 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> I suggest you keep your TT21, but install a TN72 with a TA50 antenna (total equipment cost of
> about $460). You can't use it to enter A, B, and C airspace, though there are probably some
> exceptions for glider operating areas (and maybe others), but you otherwise have all the
> features the TT22 would give you. Here's the Trig document for gliders:
>
> https://www.trig-avionics.com/library/TN72%20Glider%20installation%20-%20ADS-B%20guidance%20slides%20-%20August%202018.pdf
>

Thanks Eric. I think I will take this route. I received a few PM's from pilots using TT21's in this fashion. It makes a lot of sense for the case where you already have a TT21 and don't see a need to fly in full compliance airspace. I installed a PowerMouse with ADS-B in this year and it's helped me see just how busy the (unseen) traffic is in the Arizona airspace I mostly fly in. I'll start working on the firmware update my older unit almost certainly needs to get it working properly with a TN72.

JJ

[Dan Marotta]

On 12/21/20 5:19 PM, John Johnson wrote:
> Should I assume it is not legal in the US to use a TT21 with a TN72 for ADS-B out in an experimental glider? That combination is ok in Europe (I think) with the difference being the US wants 2x the xmit power for ADS-B (TT22 at 250W) vs the 125W output of the TT21. I would like to think that having otherwise compliant, lower power ADS-B out is better (and not illegal) than no ADS-B out in an aircraft that is legal without ADS-B.
> Probably not a realistic hope - but it would save me the not trivial expense of upgrading my TT21 to a TT22.
>
> JJ
>

I don't see why you couldn't use the TT21, but the price difference
between the TT22 and the TT21 is only $157. Why wouldn't you go for the
higher power and legality above 15,000'?

Rather than upgrade, why not sell the 21 and buy a 22?

--
Dan
5J

[John Johnson]

On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 12:11:12 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 12/21/20 5:19 PM, John Johnson wrote:
> > Should I assume it is not legal in the US to use a TT21 with a TN72 for ADS-B out in an experimental glider? That combination is ok in Europe (I think) with the difference being the US wants 2x the xmit power for ADS-B (TT22 at 250W) vs the 125W output of the TT21. I would like to think that having otherwise compliant, lower power ADS-B out is better (and not illegal) than no ADS-B out in an aircraft that is legal without ADS-B.
> > Probably not a realistic hope - but it would save me the not trivial expense of upgrading my TT21 to a TT22.
> >
> > JJ
> >
> I don't see why you couldn't use the TT21, but the price difference
> between the TT22 and the TT21 is only $157. Why wouldn't you go for the
> higher power and legality above 15,000'?
>
> Rather than upgrade, why not sell the 21 and buy a 22?
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J
Dan, I suspect the cost to replace my TT21 with a TT22 is a lot more than $200 - probably closer to a $1000. Since I can legally use my TT21 for ADS-B out everywhere I fly (and I can always upgrade to a TT22 later for no additional cost penalty), I'm not sure what I gain. As near as I can tell, I'll essentially have the same ADS-B out visibility and be experimental glider legal everywhere I fly. I do appreciate the advice.
In the meantime, if anyone is looking for a used TT21, let me know and I'll consider your offer.
JJ

[Jay Campbell]

On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 8:49:56 PM UTC-5, John Johnson wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 12:11:12 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > On 12/21/20 5:19 PM, John Johnson wrote:
> > > Should I assume it is not legal in the US to use a TT21 with a TN72 for ADS-B out in an experimental glider? That combination is ok in Europe (I think) with the difference being the US wants 2x the xmit power for ADS-B (TT22 at 250W) vs the 125W output of the TT21. I would like to think that having otherwise compliant, lower power ADS-B out is better (and not illegal) than no ADS-B out in an aircraft that is legal without ADS-B.
> > > Probably not a realistic hope - but it would save me the not trivial expense of upgrading my TT21 to a TT22.
> > >
> > > JJ
> > >
> > I don't see why you couldn't use the TT21, but the price difference
> > between the TT22 and the TT21 is only $157. Why wouldn't you go for the
> > higher power and legality above 15,000'?
> >
> > Rather than upgrade, why not sell the 21 and buy a 22?
> >
> > --
> > Dan
> > 5J
> Dan, I suspect the cost to replace my TT21 with a TT22 is a lot more than $200 - probably closer to a $1000. Since I can legally use my TT21 for ADS-B out everywhere I fly (and I can always upgrade to a TT22 later for no additional cost penalty), I'm not sure what I gain. As near as I can tell, I'll essentially have the same ADS-B out visibility and be experimental glider legal everywhere I fly. I do appreciate the advice.
> In the meantime, if anyone is looking for a used TT21, let me know and I'll consider your offer.
> JJ
The 21 can be upgraded to a 22 by Mid Continent and then you can add the TN 72 as the ADS B out. Don't know today's price for the conversion, but when I did it a year ago, it was very reasonable.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 7:01:44 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 8:49:56 PM UTC-5, John Johnson wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 12:11:12 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > On 12/21/20 5:19 PM, John Johnson wrote:
> > > > Should I assume it is not legal in the US to use a TT21 with a TN72 for ADS-B out in an experimental glider? That combination is ok in Europe (I think) with the difference being the US wants 2x the xmit power for ADS-B (TT22 at 250W) vs the 125W output of the TT21. I would like to think that having otherwise compliant, lower power ADS-B out is better (and not illegal) than no ADS-B out in an aircraft that is legal without ADS-B.
> > > > Probably not a realistic hope - but it would save me the not trivial expense of upgrading my TT21 to a TT22.
> > > >
> > > > JJ
> > > >
> > > I don't see why you couldn't use the TT21, but the price difference
> > > between the TT22 and the TT21 is only $157. Why wouldn't you go for the
> > > higher power and legality above 15,000'?
> > >
> > > Rather than upgrade, why not sell the 21 and buy a 22?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dan
> > > 5J
> > Dan, I suspect the cost to replace my TT21 with a TT22 is a lot more than $200 - probably closer to a $1000. Since I can legally use my TT21 for ADS-B out everywhere I fly (and I can always upgrade to a TT22 later for no additional cost penalty), I'm not sure what I gain. As near as I can tell, I'll essentially have the same ADS-B out visibility and be experimental glider legal everywhere I fly. I do appreciate the advice.
> > In the meantime, if anyone is looking for a used TT21, let me know and I'll consider your offer.
> > JJ
> The 21 can be upgraded to a 22 by Mid Continent and then you can add the TN 72 as the ADS B out. Don't know today's price for the conversion, but when I did it a year ago, it was very reasonable.


I believe the price is $900 TT21 to TN72

They will update the software in the TC20 & TT22/TT21 for free you pay the shipping then you could use the TT21 for a TABS installation.

http://www.craggyaero.com/transponder.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[paul.fer....gmail.com]

Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?

Thanks,
Paul

[Dan Marotta]

On 12/23/20 6:49 PM, John Johnson wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 12:11:12 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> On 12/21/20 5:19 PM, John Johnson wrote:
>>> Should I assume it is not legal in the US to use a TT21 with a TN72 for ADS-B out in an experimental glider? That combination is ok in Europe (I think) with the difference being the US wants 2x the xmit power for ADS-B (TT22 at 250W) vs the 125W output of the TT21. I would like to think that having otherwise compliant, lower power ADS-B out is better (and not illegal) than no ADS-B out in an aircraft that is legal without ADS-B.
>>> Probably not a realistic hope - but it would save me the not trivial expense of upgrading my TT21 to a TT22.
>>>
>>> JJ
>>>
>> I don't see why you couldn't use the TT21, but the price difference
>> between the TT22 and the TT21 is only $157. Why wouldn't you go for the
>> higher power and legality above 15,000'?
>>
>> Rather than upgrade, why not sell the 21 and buy a 22?
>>
>> --
>> Dan
>> 5J
> Dan, I suspect the cost to replace my TT21 with a TT22 is a lot more than $200 - probably closer to a $1000. Since I can legally use my TT21 for ADS-B out everywhere I fly (and I can always upgrade to a TT22 later for no additional cost penalty), I'm not sure what I gain. As near as I can tell, I'll essentially have the same ADS-B out visibility and be experimental glider legal everywhere I fly. I do appreciate the advice.
> In the meantime, if anyone is looking for a used TT21, let me know and I'll consider your offer.
> JJ
>
Hi John,

When I posted I missed the part where you already had a TT21. I thought
you were starting from scratch and so the extra $157 for a TT22 wouldn't
have been that much extra.

--
Dan
5J

[kinsell]

On 12/24/20 11:07 AM, paul.fer....gmail.com wrote:
> Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>

Not legal above 15K, but I've heard rumors it's been done.

[2G]

On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8, paul.fer....gmail.com wrote:
> Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

On 12/25/20 11:53 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8, paul.fer....gmail.com wrote:
>> Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Paul
>
> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.
>
> Tom
>


But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped
glider not allowed to fly over the top of the airspace?

I'm equipped, BTW.

--
Dan
5J

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dan Marotta wrote on 12/26/2020 8:17 AM:
> On 12/25/20 11:53 PM, 2G wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8, paul.fer....gmail.com wrote:
>>> Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to
>>> it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C
>>> airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Paul
>>
>> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
>> bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
>> Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
>> with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
>> have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
>> mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>
>
> But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules?* Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
> over the top of the airspace?
>
> I'm equipped, BTW.

My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
TT22/TN72 combo.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Saturday, December 26, 2020 at 9:36:17 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Dan Marotta wrote on 12/26/2020 8:17 AM:
> > On 12/25/20 11:53 PM, 2G wrote:
> >> On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8, paul.fer....gmail..com wrote:
> >>> Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to
> >>> it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C
> >>> airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Paul
> >>
> >> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
> >> bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
> >> Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
> >> with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
> >> have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
> >> mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.
> >>
> >> Tom
> >>
> >
> >
> > But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
> > over the top of the airspace?
> >
> > I'm equipped, BTW.
> My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
> so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
> course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
> glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
> TT22/TN72 combo.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

The governing regulation is 91.225:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
You can overfly class B and C airspace if you are at 10,500 and above (not 10,000) - below that you will need a transponder equipped with ADS-B out. This is further explained in:
http://ourdigitalmags.com/publication/?i=411158&article_id=2793071&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5

This is the relevant part of 91.225:

(d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:

(1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;

(2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

(5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.

(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -

(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and

(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.

Tom

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 12/26/2020 11:19 PM:
> On Saturday, December 26, 2020 at 9:36:17 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Dan Marotta wrote on 12/26/2020 8:17 AM:
>>> On 12/25/20 11:53 PM, 2G wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8, paul.fer....gmail..com wrote:
>>>>> Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to
>>>>> it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C
>>>>> airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
>>>> bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
>>>> Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
>>>> with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
>>>> have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
>>>> mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
>>> over the top of the airspace?
>>>
>>> I'm equipped, BTW.
>> My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
>> so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
>> course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
>> glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
>> TT22/TN72 combo.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> The governing regulation is 91.225:
> https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
> You can overfly class B and C airspace if you are at 10,500 and above (not 10,000) - below that you will need a transponder equipped with ADS-B out. This is further explained in:
> http://ourdigitalmags.com/publication/?i=411158&article_id=2793071&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5
>
> This is the relevant part of 91.225:
>
> (d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:
>
> (1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;
>
> (2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
>
> (3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
>
> (4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
>
> (5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
>
> (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -
>
> (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
>
> (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
>
> Tom
>
The only reference to 10,500' I see is this:

"A glider may fly over Reno at 10,500 ft MSL without a transponder, but you must have a
transponder if you go below 10,000 ft MSL over this airspace or if you go into the Reno Class C
airspace itself."

It sure looks like the "must have a transponder" requirement begins below 10,000', not 10,500,
which is consistent with the regulations listed. 10,500' might be a sensible personal choice to
avoid inadvertently going below 10,000', but I don't think it's a requirement.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[John Johnson]

On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 6:57:32 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/26/2020 11:19 PM:
> > On Saturday, December 26, 2020 at 9:36:17 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> Dan Marotta wrote on 12/26/2020 8:17 AM:
> >>> On 12/25/20 11:53 PM, 2G wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8, paul.fer....gmail..com wrote:
> >>>>> Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to
> >>>>> it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C
> >>>>> airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Paul
> >>>>
> >>>> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
> >>>> bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
> >>>> Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
> >>>> with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
> >>>> have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
> >>>> mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
> >>> over the top of the airspace?
> >>>
> >>> I'm equipped, BTW.
> >> My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
> >> so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
> >> course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
> >> glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
> >> TT22/TN72 combo.
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >
> > The governing regulation is 91.225:
> > https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
> > You can overfly class B and C airspace if you are at 10,500 and above (not 10,000) - below that you will need a transponder equipped with ADS-B out. This is further explained in:
> > http://ourdigitalmags.com/publication/?i=411158&article_id=2793071&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5
> >
> > This is the relevant part of 91.225:
> >
> > (d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:
> >
> > (1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;
> >
> > (2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
> >
> > (3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
> >
> > (4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
> >
> > (5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
> >
> > (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -
> >
> > (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
> >
> > (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> The only reference to 10,500' I see is this:
>
> "A glider may fly over Reno at 10,500 ft MSL without a transponder, but you must have a
> transponder if you go below 10,000 ft MSL over this airspace or if you go into the Reno Class C
> airspace itself."
>
> It sure looks like the "must have a transponder" requirement begins below 10,000', not 10,500,
> which is consistent with the regulations listed. 10,500' might be a sensible personal choice to
> avoid inadvertently going below 10,000', but I don't think it's a requirement.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
I have to confess to being confused regarding 91.225 (e) (2). Can someone provide an explanation / example of this requirement's intent? It seems to say exempted aircraft operation is allowed in Class B/C (assuming appropriate ATC comm/permission). Or is this just applied to the space under the B/C wedding cake floors (considering (e) (1) )? Or ...??

thx, JJ

[Dan Marotta]

I've got full ADS-B in all of my aircraft so no worries for me.

On 12/26/20 10:36 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Dan Marotta wrote on 12/26/2020 8:17 AM:
>> On 12/25/20 11:53 PM, 2G wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8,
>>> paul.fer....gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure
>>>> what else is connected to it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly,
>>>> with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C airspace, but okay to fly
>>>> in the rest, correct?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them
>>> either, which may be the bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from
>>> the north the shortest distance may be over the Reno class C
>>> airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in
>>> compliance with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The
>>> non-compliant aircraft will either have to get a waiver from ATC or
>>> fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never mind that
>>> this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out
>>> of Reno.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>
>>
>> But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules?Â* Or is a non-equipped
>> glider not allowed to fly over the top of the airspace?
>>
>> I'm equipped, BTW.
>
> My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000'
> without a transponder, so you could fly over Reno on the way home to
> Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of course, I think it's too
> risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
> glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The
> next glider will have a TT22/TN72 combo.
>


--
Dan
5J

[2G]

On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 5:57:32 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/26/2020 11:19 PM:
> > On Saturday, December 26, 2020 at 9:36:17 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> Dan Marotta wrote on 12/26/2020 8:17 AM:
> >>> On 12/25/20 11:53 PM, 2G wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 10:07:36 AM UTC-8, paul.fer....gmail..com wrote:
> >>>>> Been following this thread, as my glider has a TT21, and not sure what else is connected to
> >>>>> it (TN72 GPS?). If I understand correctly, with the TT21 I cannot fly in A, B, and C
> >>>>> airspace, but okay to fly in the rest, correct?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Paul
> >>>>
> >>>> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
> >>>> bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
> >>>> Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
> >>>> with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
> >>>> have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
> >>>> mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
> >>> over the top of the airspace?
> >>>
> >>> I'm equipped, BTW.
> >> My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
> >> so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
> >> course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
> >> glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
> >> TT22/TN72 combo.
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >
> > The governing regulation is 91.225:
> > https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
> > You can overfly class B and C airspace if you are at 10,500 and above (not 10,000) - below that you will need a transponder equipped with ADS-B out. This is further explained in:
> > http://ourdigitalmags.com/publication/?i=411158&article_id=2793071&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5
> >
> > This is the relevant part of 91.225:
> >
> > (d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:
> >
> > (1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;
> >
> > (2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
> >
> > (3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
> >
> > (4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
> >
> > (5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
> >
> > (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -
> >
> > (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
> >
> > (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> The only reference to 10,500' I see is this:
>
> "A glider may fly over Reno at 10,500 ft MSL without a transponder, but you must have a
> transponder if you go below 10,000 ft MSL over this airspace or if you go into the Reno Class C
> airspace itself."
>
> It sure looks like the "must have a transponder" requirement begins below 10,000', not 10,500,
> which is consistent with the regulations listed. 10,500' might be a sensible personal choice to
> avoid inadvertently going below 10,000', but I don't think it's a requirement.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

The regs say "an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL." The FAA interprets this in increments of 500 ft.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 12/27/2020 7:49 PM:
> On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 5:57:32 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
>>>>>> bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
>>>>>> Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
>>>>>> with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
>>>>>> have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
>>>>>> mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
>>>>> over the top of the airspace?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm equipped, BTW.
>>>> My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
>>>> so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
>>>> course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
>>>> glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
>>>> TT22/TN72 combo.
>>>> --
>>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>>>
>>> The governing regulation is 91.225:
>>> https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
>>> You can overfly class B and C airspace if you are at 10,500 and above (not 10,000) - below that you will need a transponder equipped with ADS-B out. This is further explained in:
>>> http://ourdigitalmags.com/publication/?i=411158&article_id=2793071&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5
>>>
>>> This is the relevant part of 91.225:
>>>
>>> (d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:
>>>
>>> (1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;
>>>
>>> (2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
>>>
>>> (3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
>>>
>>> (4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
>>>
>>> (5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
>>>
>>> (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -
>>>
>>> (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
>>>
>>> (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>> The only reference to 10,500' I see is this:
>>
>> "A glider may fly over Reno at 10,500 ft MSL without a transponder, but you must have a
>> transponder if you go below 10,000 ft MSL over this airspace or if you go into the Reno Class C
>> airspace itself."
>>
>> It sure looks like the "must have a transponder" requirement begins below 10,000', not 10,500,
>> which is consistent with the regulations listed. 10,500' might be a sensible personal choice to
>> avoid inadvertently going below 10,000', but I don't think it's a requirement.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>>
> The regs say "an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL." The FAA interprets this in increments of 500 ft.
>
But that's not a TT21 vs TT22 issue, or even a transponder issue, right? Which is what we are
discussing. And what is the reg that says you have to stay 500' from the airspace top - I don't
recall that requirement.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 8:27:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/27/2020 7:49 PM:
> > On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 5:57:32 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
> >>>>>> bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
> >>>>>> Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
> >>>>>> with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
> >>>>>> have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
> >>>>>> mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tom
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
> >>>>> over the top of the airspace?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm equipped, BTW.
> >>>> My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
> >>>> so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
> >>>> course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
> >>>> glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
> >>>> TT22/TN72 combo.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >>>
> >>> The governing regulation is 91.225:
> >>> https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
> >>> You can overfly class B and C airspace if you are at 10,500 and above (not 10,000) - below that you will need a transponder equipped with ADS-B out. This is further explained in:
> >>> http://ourdigitalmags.com/publication/?i=411158&article_id=2793071&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5
> >>>
> >>> This is the relevant part of 91.225:
> >>>
> >>> (d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:
> >>>
> >>> (1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;
> >>>
> >>> (2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
> >>>
> >>> (3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
> >>>
> >>> (4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
> >>>
> >>> (5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
> >>>
> >>> (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -
> >>>
> >>> (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
> >>>
> >>> (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >>>
> >> The only reference to 10,500' I see is this:
> >>
> >> "A glider may fly over Reno at 10,500 ft MSL without a transponder, but you must have a
> >> transponder if you go below 10,000 ft MSL over this airspace or if you go into the Reno Class C
> >> airspace itself."
> >>
> >> It sure looks like the "must have a transponder" requirement begins below 10,000', not 10,500,
> >> which is consistent with the regulations listed. 10,500' might be a sensible personal choice to
> >> avoid inadvertently going below 10,000', but I don't think it's a requirement.
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >>
> > The regs say "an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL." The FAA interprets this in increments of 500 ft.
> >
> But that's not a TT21 vs TT22 issue, or even a transponder issue, right? Which is what we are
> discussing. And what is the reg that says you have to stay 500' from the airspace top - I don't
> recall that requirement.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

It's called vertical separation. ATC assumes they know the position of all aircraft in their airspace. If you are at 10,001 ft there is no separation with an aircraft at 10,000. It is covered in the article I cited.

Tom

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 12/27/2020 9:10 PM:
> On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 8:27:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> 2G wrote on 12/27/2020 7:49 PM:
>>> On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 5:57:32 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
>>>>>>>> bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
>>>>>>>> Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
>>>>>>>> with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
>>>>>>>> have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
>>>>>>>> mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
>>>>>>> over the top of the airspace?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm equipped, BTW.
>>>>>> My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
>>>>>> so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
>>>>>> course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
>>>>>> glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
>>>>>> TT22/TN72 combo.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>>>>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>>>>>
>>>>> The governing regulation is 91.225:
>>>>> https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
>>>>> You can overfly class B and C airspace if you are at 10,500 and above (not 10,000) - below that you will need a transponder equipped with ADS-B out. This is further explained in:
>>>>> http://ourdigitalmags.com/publication/?i=411158&article_id=2793071&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the relevant part of 91.225:
>>>>>
>>>>> (d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;
>>>>>
>>>>> (2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
>>>>>
>>>>> (3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
>>>>>
>>>>> (4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
>>>>>
>>>>> (5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
>>>>>
>>>>> (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
>>>>>
>>>>> (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom
>>>>>
>>>> The only reference to 10,500' I see is this:
>>>>
>>>> "A glider may fly over Reno at 10,500 ft MSL without a transponder, but you must have a
>>>> transponder if you go below 10,000 ft MSL over this airspace or if you go into the Reno Class C
>>>> airspace itself."
>>>>
>>>> It sure looks like the "must have a transponder" requirement begins below 10,000', not 10,500,
>>>> which is consistent with the regulations listed. 10,500' might be a sensible personal choice to
>>>> avoid inadvertently going below 10,000', but I don't think it's a requirement.
>>>> --
>>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>>>>
>>> The regs say "an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL." The FAA interprets this in increments of 500 ft.
>>>
>> But that's not a TT21 vs TT22 issue, or even a transponder issue, right? Which is what we are
>> discussing. And what is the reg that says you have to stay 500' from the airspace top - I don't
>> recall that requirement.
>> --

>
> It's called vertical separation. ATC assumes they know the position of all aircraft in their airspace. If you are at 10,001 ft there is no separation with an aircraft at 10,000. It is covered in the article I cited.
>
> Tom

My main point is you do not need a TT22 to overfly Class C in Reno, or Class C anywhere. Do you
agree the requirement is a glider needs a transponder below 10,000' to overfly Class C, but
does not need one when doing it above 10,000'?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 6:29:38 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/27/2020 9:10 PM:
> > On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 8:27:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> 2G wrote on 12/27/2020 7:49 PM:
> >>> On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 5:57:32 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
> >>>>>>>> bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
> >>>>>>>> Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
> >>>>>>>> with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
> >>>>>>>> have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
> >>>>>>>> mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Tom
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
> >>>>>>> over the top of the airspace?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm equipped, BTW.
> >>>>>> My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
> >>>>>> so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
> >>>>>> course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
> >>>>>> glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
> >>>>>> TT22/TN72 combo.
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >>>>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> >>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The governing regulation is 91.225:
> >>>>> https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
> >>>>> You can overfly class B and C airspace if you are at 10,500 and above (not 10,000) - below that you will need a transponder equipped with ADS-B out. This is further explained in:
> >>>>> http://ourdigitalmags.com/publication/?i=411158&article_id=2793071&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is the relevant part of 91.225:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tom
> >>>>>
> >>>> The only reference to 10,500' I see is this:
> >>>>
> >>>> "A glider may fly over Reno at 10,500 ft MSL without a transponder, but you must have a
> >>>> transponder if you go below 10,000 ft MSL over this airspace or if you go into the Reno Class C
> >>>> airspace itself."
> >>>>
> >>>> It sure looks like the "must have a transponder" requirement begins below 10,000', not 10,500,
> >>>> which is consistent with the regulations listed. 10,500' might be a sensible personal choice to
> >>>> avoid inadvertently going below 10,000', but I don't think it's a requirement.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >>>>
> >>> The regs say "an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL." The FAA interprets this in increments of 500 ft.
> >>>
> >> But that's not a TT21 vs TT22 issue, or even a transponder issue, right? Which is what we are
> >> discussing. And what is the reg that says you have to stay 500' from the airspace top - I don't
> >> recall that requirement.
> >> --
>
> >
> > It's called vertical separation. ATC assumes they know the position of all aircraft in their airspace. If you are at 10,001 ft there is no separation with an aircraft at 10,000. It is covered in the article I cited.
> >
> > Tom
> My main point is you do not need a TT22 to overfly Class C in Reno, or Class C anywhere. Do you
> agree the requirement is a glider needs a transponder below 10,000' to overfly Class C, but
> does not need one when doing it above 10,000'?
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

No, that is not true per my previous comments. You must be at 10,500 or higher.

Tom

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 12/28/2020 9:43 PM:
> On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 6:29:38 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> 2G wrote on 12/27/2020 9:10 PM:
>>> On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 8:27:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> 2G wrote on 12/27/2020 7:49 PM:
>>>>> On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 5:57:32 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
>>>>>>>>>> bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
>>>>>>>>>> Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
>>>>>>>>>> with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
>>>>>>>>>> have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
>>>>>>>>>> mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
>>>>>>>>> over the top of the airspace?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm equipped, BTW.
>>>>>>>> My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
>>>>>>>> so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
>>>>>>>> course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
>>>>>>>> glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
>>>>>>>> TT22/TN72 combo.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>>>>>>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The governing regulation is 91.225:
>>>>>>> https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
>>>>>>> You can overfly class B and C airspace if you are at 10,500 and above (not 10,000) - below that you will need a transponder equipped with ADS-B out. This is further explained in:
>>>>>>> http://ourdigitalmags.com/publication/?i=411158&article_id=2793071&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is the relevant part of 91.225:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only reference to 10,500' I see is this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "A glider may fly over Reno at 10,500 ft MSL without a transponder, but you must have a
>>>>>> transponder if you go below 10,000 ft MSL over this airspace or if you go into the Reno Class C
>>>>>> airspace itself."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It sure looks like the "must have a transponder" requirement begins below 10,000', not 10,500,
>>>>>> which is consistent with the regulations listed. 10,500' might be a sensible personal choice to
>>>>>> avoid inadvertently going below 10,000', but I don't think it's a requirement.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>>>>>>
>>>>> The regs say "an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL." The FAA interprets this in increments of 500 ft.
>>>>>
>>>> But that's not a TT21 vs TT22 issue, or even a transponder issue, right? Which is what we are
>>>> discussing. And what is the reg that says you have to stay 500' from the airspace top - I don't
>>>> recall that requirement.
>>>> --
>>
>>>
>>> It's called vertical separation. ATC assumes they know the position of all aircraft in their airspace. If you are at 10,001 ft there is no separation with an aircraft at 10,000. It is covered in the article I cited.
>>>
>>> Tom
>> My main point is you do not need a TT22 to overfly Class C in Reno, or Class C anywhere. Do you
>> agree the requirement is a glider needs a transponder below 10,000' to overfly Class C, but
>> does not need one when doing it above 10,000'?
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> No, that is not true per my previous comments. You must be at 10,500 or higher.
>

And is a transponder of any type required for a glider at 10,500?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 5:42:12 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/28/2020 9:43 PM:
> > On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 6:29:38 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> 2G wrote on 12/27/2020 9:10 PM:
> >>> On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 8:27:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>> 2G wrote on 12/27/2020 7:49 PM:
> >>>>> On Sunday, December 27, 2020 at 5:57:32 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Not only can't you fly IN those airspaces, you can't fly OVER them either, which may be the
> >>>>>>>>>> bigger limitation. Going back to Minden from the north the shortest distance may be over the
> >>>>>>>>>> Reno class C airspace, which only goes up to 8,400 ft. But you will need to be in compliance
> >>>>>>>>>> with class C airspace to even over-fly this airspace. The non-compliant aircraft will either
> >>>>>>>>>> have to get a waiver from ATC or fly 20 nm either east or west to avoid it altogether. Never
> >>>>>>>>>> mind that this might put you into conflict with air traffic flying in and out of Reno.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Tom
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> But aren't gliders exempt from the ADS-B rules? Or is a non-equipped glider not allowed to fly
> >>>>>>>>> over the top of the airspace?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I'm equipped, BTW.
> >>>>>>>> My understanding is gliders can fly over Class C airspace above 10,000' without a transponder,
> >>>>>>>> so you could fly over Reno on the way home to Minden - just don't sink below 10,000'. Of
> >>>>>>>> course, I think it's too risky to fly without transponder in the Minden/Reno area (mode C on my
> >>>>>>>> glider), and if I had a TT21, I put in a TN72 with a TA50 antenna. The next glider will have a
> >>>>>>>> TT22/TN72 combo.
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >>>>>>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> >>>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The governing regulation is 91.225:
> >>>>>>> https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225
> >>>>>>> You can overfly class B and C airspace if you are at 10,500 and above (not 10,000) - below that you will need a transponder equipped with ADS-B out. This is further explained in:
> >>>>>>> http://ourdigitalmags.com/publication/?i=411158&article_id=2793071&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is the relevant part of 91.225:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (d) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (2) Except as provided for in paragraph (e) of this section, within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 to this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (5) Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> The only reference to 10,500' I see is this:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "A glider may fly over Reno at 10,500 ft MSL without a transponder, but you must have a
> >>>>>> transponder if you go below 10,000 ft MSL over this airspace or if you go into the Reno Class C
> >>>>>> airspace itself."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It sure looks like the "must have a transponder" requirement begins below 10,000', not 10,500,
> >>>>>> which is consistent with the regulations listed. 10,500' might be a sensible personal choice to
> >>>>>> avoid inadvertently going below 10,000', but I don't think it's a requirement.
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> The regs say "an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL." The FAA interprets this in increments of 500 ft.
> >>>>>
> >>>> But that's not a TT21 vs TT22 issue, or even a transponder issue, right? Which is what we are
> >>>> discussing. And what is the reg that says you have to stay 500' from the airspace top - I don't
> >>>> recall that requirement.
> >>>> --
> >>
> >>>
> >>> It's called vertical separation. ATC assumes they know the position of all aircraft in their airspace. If you are at 10,001 ft there is no separation with an aircraft at 10,000. It is covered in the article I cited.
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >> My main point is you do not need a TT22 to overfly Class C in Reno, or Class C anywhere. Do you
> >> agree the requirement is a glider needs a transponder below 10,000' to overfly Class C, but
> >> does not need one when doing it above 10,000'?
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >
> > No, that is not true per my previous comments. You must be at 10,500 or higher.
> >
> And is a transponder of any type required for a glider at 10,500?
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

I have posted a link to the governing FAR - try reading it.

Tom