Instrument training

[xxx]

I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
fun.

Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?

[Matt Barrow]

"xxx" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
Because flying above the clouds, etc., is the second biggest thrill, after
sex.

[Guillermo]

"xxx" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?

Refer to "WHy get an IR" two posts below in rec.aviation.student

[Robert Chambers]

Don't worry it gets worse!

Nothing worth having like this comes without some sweat equity, but it
is worth having and you will make use of it.

hang in there.

xxx wrote:

> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>

[[email protected]]

I don't think anyone will be able to answer that. At the end of the day
it depends on why you're pursuing the rating in the first place. If
it's something you're doing because you're planning a career or because
everyone keeps telling you that you should, then that could be the
reason. Some pilots never pursue the IR because they either don't have
an interest, or it's not a good investment given that they may not use
it enough to remain current and proficient. If you're pursuing aviation
as a career then it's essentially a necessity, which could mean that
you're not really excited about it, but it's a required step. Maybe you
don't like the regimented nature of the rating or hate not being all to
enjoy the view. Maybe it's your instructor. Did you start the IR
immediately after completing the PPL and before having an opportunity
to fly around as a VFR only pilot?

For me the IR was certainly a challenge, but one I wanted to accept
because I was ready for it. It was a great learning experience, but
like the private there were days that were frustrating and were not fun
at all. But overall I had a great time.

Dave

[John Gaquin]

"xxx" > wrote in message

> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.

Fun is what you make of it. It's hard at the start. If it were easy,
everyone would do it. The hard is what makes it worthwhile.

>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?

Just quit. If you really have to ask, you probably wouldn't understand the
reply.

[[email protected]]

xxx,
One major source of instrument training stress could come from the
instructor. If he/she expects too much from you, add new things when
you have not become proficient with basic instrument flying skills,
oblivious to your stress level etc. try another instructor.

[Casey Wilson]

"xxx" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>
So quit.... I doubt anyone is holding a gun to your head.

[Peter R.]

xxx wrote:

> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?

Sometimes fundamentals are not always the most enjoyable part of
training, but rather how the fundamentals are used as part of the
greater skill. However, if you cannot see the importance of this part
of the training, either you or your instructor needs to change.

What convinced you to start instrument training, anyhow?

--
Peter

[Mark Hansen]

On 5/19/2005 6:53 AM, xxx wrote:

> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>

This is an interesting post... I'm guessing you want to be
prodded a bit, so I'll bite. Why do you find it less than
fun?

I'm currently working on my Instrument Rating and the FAA Knowledge
Test at the same time, so I'm pretty much busy all the time. However,
it's been quite fun. I agree with other than your instructor can have
a lot to do with how much you enjoy the training. Mine goes a little
overboard trying to make it fun, but I've learned to live with that ;-)

How are you doing with various Attitude Instrument Flying skills? For
example, are you comfortable flying under the hood? Are you able to
maintain a reasonable instrument scan? Do you feel like the airplane
just won't remain under control?

Each step is built on the assumption that the previous steps are
successful. If, for example, you were not able to maintain heading
or altitude, it would be really hard to begin working on VOR interception
and tracking tasks, etc.

Sit down with your instructor and ask what tasks he believes you
are able to perform proficiently. It may be that he's unaware of
the difficulty you're having, and is just 'moving on' before you're
ready to do so.

Now ... if you want to talk about the knowledge test - I'm at that
"this is just not fun" stage ;-)


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[David Cartwright]

"xxx" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.

Who said training had to be fun? Instrument training is damned hard work,
not least because just as you got the hang of this flying lark and started
to be able to relax a little bit, some idiot came along, stopped you looking
out of the windows, gave you a shedload of knobs and dials to understand,
stuffed the aircraft into a ridiculous attitude, and said: "Get out of that
without killing us both". The point is your next question.

> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?

Because once you're certificated to do it, you can do proper flying, and in
fact most of it won't happen in cloud. There's nothing worse than bumbling
about in the clouds, and you'll want to do it as little as possible.
Instrument certification gives you the ability to go and play on top where
the sun always shines, to be confident on days when the weather report says
something other than CAVOK, to navigate without having to constantly look
out of the window, try to identify what you're flying over and see if you've
been blown off track, and so on. Who cares if you never have to do an ILS
approach down to minima - it's just great being able to potter back home
from somewhere at 5000' in almost empty sky, then amble down through the
clouds and pop out at 2,000 feet for a conventional visual approach.

D.

[Guillermo]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
> On 5/19/2005 6:53 AM, xxx wrote:
>

>
> Now ... if you want to talk about the knowledge test - I'm at that
> "this is just not fun" stage ;-)
>
KNowledge test is teh ugliest part of instrument training.
Especially because IT IS NOT flying.

[Robert M. Gary]

Flying in the clouds is fun. Instrument training sucks, I don't think
anyone likes it. You're paying to fly but you can't even see outside.

-Robert, CFI

[Ross Richardson]

Casey Wilson wrote:

> "xxx" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
>>fun.
>>
>>Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>>
>
> So quit.... I doubt anyone is holding a gun to your head.
>
>
The early part is basics and not as much fun. But as you learn to keep
the plane level, climbing and decending turns, timed turns, approaches,
all without ever looking out can be rewarding. Flying a couple of hours
and when you get to the airport it is right where it should be. You have
to know where you are at all times. I always have this mental picture of
me looking down at my plane all in the scheme of things.

--
Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[paul kgyy]

I got mine 2 years ago and found it sheer hard work all the way. The
payoff finally came when I made my first IFR flight on my own in actual
IMC and saw that runway appear over the nose and realized that it was a
trip that would otherwise have left me at home because of weather.

[Hamish Reid]

In article . com>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> Flying in the clouds is fun. Instrument training sucks, I don't think
> anyone likes it. You're paying to fly but you can't even see outside.

Yeah. I had this epiphany while doing my IFR cross country up to Arcata
(KACV) some time ago: there I was, 8,000' over the redwoods, the ranges,
the fog-shrouded coast (apparently) in sight, etc., and I'm *paying* to
block all this out under the hood and concentrate on the instruments.
Ditto for the NEUVO 5 approach out of Oakland -- people pay large
amounts of money to see the City and the Golden Gate, etc., from up here
and here I am paying vast sums *not* to see it. Bah humbug! :-).

Hamish (who did of course end up with the rating...)

[xxx]

David Cartwright wrote:

>
> > Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>
> Because once you're certificated to do it, you can do proper flying,
and in
> fact most of it won't happen in cloud. There's nothing worse than
bumbling
> about in the clouds, and you'll want to do it as little as possible.
> Instrument certification gives you the ability to go and play on top
where
> the sun always shines, to be confident on days when the weather
report says
> something other than CAVOK, to navigate without having to constantly
look
> out of the window, try to identify what you're flying over and see if
you've
> been blown off track, and so on. Who cares if you never have to do an
ILS
> approach down to minima - it's just great being able to potter back
home
> from somewhere at 5000' in almost empty sky, then amble down through
the
> clouds and pop out at 2,000 feet for a conventional visual approach.

Thanks, that's a pretty good answer.

I've got no professional aviation aspirations buy might buy my own
airplane in the reasonably-near future. I can see that I'd get more
utility out of it with the legal right to punch a layer when it's
convenient.

[Jose]

> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?

I assume your question is (only) partly in jest, and looking for
support. What kind of flying do you want to do? If all you want is to
poke holes in the sky and go for a $150 hamburger, then maybe you don't
need to do this. Ditto if you live in Arizona, where I don't think they
even have a =word= for cloud. OTOH if you want to get transportation
value out of the aircraft, or live where puffy white things would get in
the way of your aviation, =and= don't already have a (bad) habit of
looking at the cockpit instead of out the window(*), then an instrument
rating will allow you to fly when you otherwise could not, even if you
end up staying out of the clouds most of the time.

A perfect example came up a little while ago - I was going from Florida
to Cleveland, with a gas stop in Shelby (EHO - a great airport and FBO
BTW). After waiting out a thunderstorm that would send Thor to his
dugout, it was a little wispy (scattered to broken at 500 feet, nothing
above). I could depart IFR and then cancel if I wanted to. As it
turned out, the field went to 700 scattered while I was getting the
flight plan filed, so I abandoned that plan and departed VFR, flying
most of the way visually, climbing ultimately to 12,000 to avoid some
hills and the building clouds below, and navigating visually around a
few big thunderclouds as the sun was going down over the mountains. I
preferred to remain visual so I could see the thunderbumpers before I
bumped into them, and got flight following so that I could get a
clearance if I needed to. Most of the way I didn't. But descending
into Cleveland, it was overcast with tops at 4000, so I was going to
have to file. A quick call to Approach got me an ILS into CGF, which I
took down to minimums before breaking out. After about eight hours of
flying, it wasn't my best approach, but if I didn't have the rating, I
would not have been able to make the trip at all. Being stuck on top
with no rating would not be very comfortable. :)

Jose
r.a.s retained, though I don't follow that group
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mark Hansen]

On 5/19/2005 9:46 AM, Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Flying in the clouds is fun. Instrument training sucks, I don't think
> anyone likes it. You're paying to fly but you can't even see outside.
>
> -Robert, CFI
>

Instrument Training Sucks? I don't know about that. Perhaps I just
have a hard time separating the "what I have to do now to get there"
from the "what I'll be able to do once I get there" ... but I'm enjoying
the training.

.... of course, I'm only at the beginning (10.4 hours). I'm reasonably
proficient at Attitude Instrument Flying and have just started on
VOR/NDB nav, so we'll see how I feel when things really start popping.

I think my instructor is at least a part of what is making the
training fun.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

xxx wrote:
> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?


To get where you're going with a fair certainty of success. Without an
instrument rating, traveling more than than one day is a crap shoot.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Maule Driver]

I always finished my lessons with a soaked shirt and a sigh of relief.
Nothing better!

xxx wrote:
> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>

[William W. Plummer]

xxx wrote:
> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>
Because it will save your life someday. And maybe somebody else's, too.

[kontiki]

xxx wrote:
> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?

Join the club. We all had to go through it. But in the end it
will make you a better pilot and in the end you will take pride
in the precision with which you aviate, navigate & communicate.

Hang in there.

[kontiki]

xxx wrote:
> I've got no professional aviation aspirations buy might buy my own
> airplane in the reasonably-near future. I can see that I'd get more
> utility out of it with the legal right to punch a layer when it's
> convenient.

And that is one of the best reasons.... you will get to use your airplane
more often, with the result that you will maintain currency and competency.
Insurance companies know this and that is why your insurance rates will
be lower with an instrument rating.

[Roy Smith]

Mark Hansen > wrote:
>... of course, I'm only at the beginning (10.4 hours). I'm reasonably
>proficient at Attitude Instrument Flying and have just started on
>VOR/NDB nav, so we'll see how I feel when things really start popping.

Kudos to your instructor for making sure you've got BAI down pat
before moving onto navigation. If you've still got to give any real
thought to holding heading and altitude, it's too early to move onto
other stuff. I think a lot of instructors push straight on to
approaches before the student is really ready.

I have to wonder, though, if spending any time on NDB skills really
makes sense these days. VOR, yes, but NDB???

[[email protected]]

Jose wrote:
> What kind of flying do you want to do? If all you want is to
> poke holes in the sky and go for a $150 hamburger, then
> maybe you don't need to do this. Ditto if you live in Arizona,
> where I don't think they even have a =word= for cloud.

**BIG** misconception about Arizona!

Shirley

[Robert M. Gary]

I'm exaggerating of course. It doesn't "suck" but its more fun to fly
when you can see outside. As a CFI I find instrument instruction *much*
easier than primary. Not only are the students more commited and
capable but its easier than actually flying IFR because you're not the
one trying to hold the plane right-side up. :)

-Robert, CFI

[Andrew Gideon]

wrote:

> For me the IR was certainly a challenge

That's a good part of the fun!

- Andrew

[Robert M. Gary]

I live near Sacramento. After my IR I took the family down to Monterey
in the middle of summer. Not only was it great to get out of the heat
of the valley, but Monterey is almost always IMC in the middle of
summer. My first actual IMC was solo (with the family) in a rented
Bonanza flying the ILS in actual in Monterey. Not sure I would do it
that way again.

-Robert

[Andrew Gideon]

David Cartwright wrote:

> Who said training had to be fun? Instrument training is damned hard work

One doesn't preclude the other.

- Andrew

[Mark Hansen]

On 5/19/2005 1:23 PM, Robert M. Gary wrote:

> I'm exaggerating of course. It doesn't "suck" but its more fun to fly
> when you can see outside. As a CFI I find instrument instruction *much*
> easier than primary. Not only are the students more commited and
> capable but its easier than actually flying IFR because you're not the
> one trying to hold the plane right-side up. :)
>
> -Robert, CFI
>

Well, I am often hit with the realization that there is stuff to
see out there. For example, I often here "Wow, that sure looks
nice tonight..." to which I just respond "I really wouldn't know" ;-)

Perhaps my CFII is really testing me, to be sure I'm not looking ;-)

During one flight, there was a traffic alert, and the CFII was unable
to spot the other airplane. He finally told me to "head for that
freeway over there". I had to laugh. I told him "Well, I have no
idea where that is, but based on the reported location of the
traffic, I'll fly heading XXX until you decide where you want to
vector me" ;-)

Boy ... I really am having fun!

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[Andrew Gideon]

xxx wrote:

> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.

Others have mentioned the instructor as a possible issue. But I recall how,
early in my training, I tried several different "view limiting devices"
before I found one (Foggles) that I disliked the least.

As much as I did enjoy the IR training, I never grew to like the foggles.
It was especially bad when I got a new pair of glasses that were smaller in
the vertical dimension than my previous pair. The area blocked by the
foggles covered most of my corrected vision range.

In other words, I was now trying to read charts w/o vision correction.

Needless to say, I made a style change after that.

If you're lucky, once you get far enough into the training, you'll spend
more time in actual. That's not only good training, but also time free of
the foggles.

- Andrew

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.student Matt Barrow > wrote:
> "xxx" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> > fun.
> >
> > Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
> Because flying above the clouds, etc., is the second biggest thrill,
> after sex.

Even tho second... "flying lasts LONGER than sex"!


Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 227 Young Eagles!

[Jim Burns]

and a beer!
God, I remember doing my IR... seems like it took forever.
Did most of it at night, in the winter.... shovel snow to get the hanger
open every night... freeze my butt off until the hood came on then sweat so
much that I'd demand that the heat be off and I'd have to peel down to my
shirt sleeves. Surprised I didn't catch pneumonia.

I think a big part of my willingness to keep going was that soaked shirt,
sigh of relief, and a beer with my instructor afterwards. I could always
depend on my instructor to either congratulate what I'd been doing right or
explain what I was doing wrong after each lesson. I always learned more
before and after the lesson than while in the airplane.

Jim

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
. com...
> I always finished my lessons with a soaked shirt and a sigh of relief.
> Nothing better!
>
> xxx wrote:
> > I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> > fun.
> >
> > Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
> >

[gregg]

xxx wrote:

> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?


Can't say what your reasons are, but for me, you can't do Angel Flights
without the IR.

IR can be fun if you think of it as flying a spaceship - or maybe a
submarine - in that you get there by wit, skill, instruments and....

lots of ATC help ;^)


--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

[Mark Hansen]

On 5/19/2005 3:01 PM, gregg wrote:

> xxx wrote:
>
>> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
>> fun.
>>
>> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>
>
> Can't say what your reasons are, but for me, you can't do Angel Flights
> without the IR.
>
> IR can be fun if you think of it as flying a spaceship - or maybe a
> submarine - in that you get there by wit, skill, instruments and....

How funny! That's exactly how I've thought about it too!

>
> lots of ATC help ;^)
>
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

[gregg]

Mark Hansen wrote:

> On 5/19/2005 3:01 PM, gregg wrote:
>
>> xxx wrote:
>>
>>> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
>>> fun.
>>>
>>> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>>
>>
>> Can't say what your reasons are, but for me, you can't do Angel Flights
>> without the IR.
>>
>> IR can be fun if you think of it as flying a spaceship - or maybe a
>> submarine - in that you get there by wit, skill, instruments and....
>
> How funny! That's exactly how I've thought about it too!
>
>>
>> lots of ATC help ;^)

Mark,

You're thinking like me?

Be afraid.... ;^)

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

[Guillermo]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> xxx wrote:
>
> If you're lucky, once you get far enough into the training, you'll spend
> more time in actual. That's not only good training, but also time free of
> the foggles.
>
Yea, flying under the foggles sucks.
Flying under IMC rocks. And you got to fly IMC if you want to realize how
worthless our sense of balance is without visual reference. I had read about
it before, but it wasn't until I flew IMC till I realized how much our
senses suck in that respect.

[[email protected]]

Roy Smith wrote:
> Mark Hansen > wrote:
> I have to wonder, though, if spending any time on NDB skills really
> makes sense these days. VOR, yes, but NDB???

Roy,

What are you asking? Am I interpreting my October 2004 ASA PTS wrong?
Can't the examiner choose an NDB IAP?

a.

[Andrew Sarangan]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in
:

>
> "xxx" > wrote in message
>
>> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
>> fun.
>
> Fun is what you make of it. It's hard at the start. If it were easy,
> everyone would do it. The hard is what makes it worthwhile.
>
>>
>> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>
> Just quit. If you really have to ask, you probably wouldn't
> understand the reply.
>
>

It is certainly a valid question when you are spending thousands of dollars
to stare at a bunch of dials and needles. When you are new, you may not
know enough about it to realize the full potential of an IR. Think of it as
working out at the gym. When you are starting new, all you get is aches and
pains. When you get past that, you will start seeing the benefits of good
health.

As the other poster said, fun is what you make of it. Working out at the
gym is certainly not fun at first. But once you realize its value, and take
it on as a challenge, it will start to become fun.

[Wizard of Draws]

On 5/19/05 9:53 AM, in article
om, "xxx"
> spewed:

> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>

It will get fun. Once you make an approach that's virtually flawless and
realize later that just a little while ago you wouldn't have had a clue how
to do that, then realize how valuable that skill could be in an emergency,
it will put it all in a new light.

Patience.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[Robert Chambers]

He can't if the plane you are flying is not equipped with an ADF. My 3
approaches were LOC, VOR and ILS.

If it's in the plane, he can ask you to demonstrate it's use.

wrote:

> Roy Smith wrote:
>
>>Mark Hansen > wrote:
>>I have to wonder, though, if spending any time on NDB skills really
>>makes sense these days. VOR, yes, but NDB???
>
>
> Roy,
>
> What are you asking? Am I interpreting my October 2004 ASA PTS wrong?
> Can't the examiner choose an NDB IAP?
>
> a.
>

[Roy Smith]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Roy Smith wrote:
> > Mark Hansen > wrote:
> > I have to wonder, though, if spending any time on NDB skills really
> > makes sense these days. VOR, yes, but NDB???
>
> Roy,
>
> What are you asking? Am I interpreting my October 2004 ASA PTS wrong?
> Can't the examiner choose an NDB IAP?
>
> a.

Not if you don't have an ADF in the airplane :-)

[Andrew Gideon]

Guillermo wrote:

> Flying under IMC rocks.

I've flown my wife in the clouds two really good times. Once we were
cruising just about (and slightly in) a layer. Another time we flew
amongst tiny little buildups.

It was fun to finally share these views with her.

We were "cotton balled" only one. That was kind of dull...but it was fun
when the world reappeared.

- Andrew

[Matt Whiting]

xxx wrote:
> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>

First, a few questions:

1. What is your motivation to obtain the instrument rating?
2. What exactly don't you find to be fun?
3. Have you taken the written?


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Robert Chambers wrote:

> Don't worry it gets worse!

That's for sure. I think my low point came at around 20 hours. Seemed
like things would just never come together at the same place and time.


> Nothing worth having like this comes without some sweat equity, but it
> is worth having and you will make use of it.

Absolutely, assuming the right motivation to begin with.


Matt

[[email protected]]

Well, now I'm thinking.

Who is authorized to paste an INOP sticker on avionics? And of course
removing the sticker later?

Sure I could remove the ADF. But, I have an RNAV and AP too (the RNAV
contains the localizer converter so it cant be removed).

This could be sweet :-)

a.

[Matt Whiting]

Roy Smith wrote:

> Mark Hansen > wrote:
>
>>... of course, I'm only at the beginning (10.4 hours). I'm reasonably
>>proficient at Attitude Instrument Flying and have just started on
>>VOR/NDB nav, so we'll see how I feel when things really start popping.
>
>
> Kudos to your instructor for making sure you've got BAI down pat
> before moving onto navigation. If you've still got to give any real
> thought to holding heading and altitude, it's too early to move onto
> other stuff. I think a lot of instructors push straight on to
> approaches before the student is really ready.
>
> I have to wonder, though, if spending any time on NDB skills really
> makes sense these days. VOR, yes, but NDB???
>

Well, one reason is that it shows pretty quickly if you REALLY can hold
a heading, altitude and do some simple mental math simultaneously! :-)

I agree that spending a lot of time on NDB approaches is probably a
waste, but I still think learning to navigate accurately using an ADF is
good basic training.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> I live near Sacramento. After my IR I took the family down to Monterey
> in the middle of summer. Not only was it great to get out of the heat
> of the valley, but Monterey is almost always IMC in the middle of
> summer. My first actual IMC was solo (with the family) in a rented
> Bonanza flying the ILS in actual in Monterey. Not sure I would do it
> that way again.

I did my first alone one a business trip to Logan. I figured I only
wanted to kill myself if I screwed up. I don't think I'd recommend
making a first IFR flight into an airport the size of Logan, however, at
least I was flying into improving weather and it ended up being even
better than forecast by the time I arrived.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Guillermo wrote:

> "Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
> online.com...
>
>>xxx wrote:
>>
>>If you're lucky, once you get far enough into the training, you'll spend
>>more time in actual. That's not only good training, but also time free of
>>the foggles.
>>
>
> Yea, flying under the foggles sucks.
> Flying under IMC rocks. And you got to fly IMC if you want to realize how
> worthless our sense of balance is without visual reference. I had read about
> it before, but it wasn't until I flew IMC till I realized how much our
> senses suck in that respect.
>
>

I took a lot of my training at night (it was in the winter in the
northeast) and many nights I really didn't need much view limiting ...
especially when it was snowing. :-) I found learning at night made it
much easier to fly in IMC in the day. If you can fly and read the
charts in the dark, doing same during the day is a piece of cake.


Matt

[BTIZ]

Because you are moving to the San Fernando Valley and will want that IR
ticket to work with the marine layer
BT

"xxx" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>

[Grumman-581]

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
...
> When you are starting new, all you get is aches and
> pains. When you get past that, you will start seeing the
> benefits of good health.

Good health is just the slowest way of dying... Same destination as the
people with crappy health, you just get there later... Assuming you don't
get run over by a soccer mom driving, talking on her cell phone, and doing
her makeup all at the same time...

[Ron Garret]

In article om>,
"xxx" > wrote:

> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?

You said you were moving to the San Fernando Valley. We get "June
gloom" here, marine-layer overcast that creates 500-1000 foot ceilings
with tops at 2000-3000 and very smooth air. It keeps all the VFR
weenies grounded, while we IFR rated pilots get to pop out on top of a
perfectly smooth, perfectly white cloud layer that stretches to the
horizon and sparkles in the morning sun like a fresh snowfall making it
look like you're flying in the middle of nowhere instead of over Los
Angeles. It's one of the most beautiful things you'll ever see.

You're inflicting this on yourself because it's even more beautiful from
the left seat :-)

rg

[Cockpit Colin]

> Because flying above the clouds, etc., is the second biggest thrill, after
> sex.

I thought sex was for people who didn't fly aeroplanes?

[[email protected]]

Actually, flying the ILS to minimums (as I did Wednesday going into
Boston Logan on an Angel Flight) and seeing those beautiful lights in
front of you when you are at 250 ft is certainly among THE greatest
thrills.

There are many, many times when ONLY the immediate area of the airport
is fogged in, particularly Cape Cod, Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard and
Boston. After an IFR departure, in 20 minutes you can be in clear blue
VFR. Without the rating, you are STUCK until the fog lifts.

This discussion has surfaced frequently over the years I have been on
this NG . . . and I remain a strong advocate of the Instrument Rating
when it comes to optimum utilitization of an aircraft and pilot's
advanced education.

I don't see ANY downside.

[[email protected]]

I HATE the foggles. I am required to wear reading glasses when I fly,
and for good reason. I need them to read charts, plates, and GPS.
They work fine. But putting on the foggles makes me unable to read
even with the glasses. So I have to look down, raise the foggles
enough to be able to read, and then replace them. It sucks.

[Dave Butler]

wrote:
> Actually, flying the ILS to minimums (as I did Wednesday going into
> Boston Logan on an Angel Flight) and seeing those beautiful lights in
> front of you when you are at 250 ft is certainly among THE greatest
> thrills.

Yes!

As a couple of people have mentioned, Angel Flight is a good reason, among many
others. Since my spouse is aerophobic, Angel Flights are a good outlet for me to
take airplane trips, help someone out a little, and take a tax deduction. I
wouldn't be doing that without an instrument rating.

Ditto the thrill of breaking out to the sight of approach lights, as I did on an
Angel Flight to Rome, GA a couple of weeks ago.

Like the feeling of seeing the ground slide away on takeoff, the feeling of
seeing those approach lights through the rain just never gets old.

Despite the above, I think the best reason is what someone else also said: if
you're going to use your plane for trips of more than a few hundred miles or
more than one day, you'll cancel a lot of trips if you don't have the rating.
Finding widespread VMC over a multi-day period is just not that common where I live.

Dave

[David Cartwright]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Others have mentioned the instructor as a possible issue. But I recall
> how,
> early in my training, I tried several different "view limiting devices"
> before I found one (Foggles) that I disliked the least.
>
> As much as I did enjoy the IR training, I never grew to like the foggles.
> It was especially bad when I got a new pair of glasses that were smaller
> in
> the vertical dimension than my previous pair. The area blocked by the
> foggles covered most of my corrected vision range.

Foggles, and in fact all the other vision limiting devices that you attach
yourself, are a pain in the butt. The only type of thing I found any good
was to have louvred screens in the aircraft which prevent the left-seat
driver from seeing out of his/her side of the windscreen and the side
windows, but which allow the resident of the right seat to see OK.

D.

[Andrew Gideon]

David Cartwright wrote:

> Foggles, and in fact all the other vision limiting devices that you attach
> yourself, are a pain in the butt.

You're using them improperly.

- Andrew (who couldn't resist {8^)

[[email protected]]

Ross,
Have you tried bifocal or variable focus glasses? We use them with
the Flipup JeffShades which are quite comfortable.

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:

> Actually, flying the ILS to minimums (as I did Wednesday going into
> Boston Logan on an Angel Flight) and seeing those beautiful lights in
> front of you when you are at 250 ft is certainly among THE greatest
> thrills.

Well, not quite as great a thrill as seeing a mountain when you break
out at 250'. :-)


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:

> I HATE the foggles. I am required to wear reading glasses when I fly,
> and for good reason. I need them to read charts, plates, and GPS.
> They work fine. But putting on the foggles makes me unable to read
> even with the glasses. So I have to look down, raise the foggles
> enough to be able to read, and then replace them. It sucks.
>

What kind of Foggles do you have? I have the clip-ons and they work
pretty well. The clear part got so scratched that I had a hard time
seeing so I took a hack saw blade and cut out the clear part leaving the
rest. Works pretty good. Of course the clip-ons aren't the best as a
view limiting device, but then again I don't cheat as I'd only be
cheating myself. FYI - when I took my check-ride many moons ago, the DE
had no problem with me using the clip-ons.


Matt

[John Gaquin]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message news:zorje.2569
>
> Well, not quite as great a thrill as seeing a mountain when you break out
> at 250'. :-)

If you had a chance to fly the approach into KaiTak, you *would* see a
mountain (big hill) right in front of you when you broke out at about 650.
Then you turn. Promptly. :-)

[Matt Barrow]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
> > Actually, flying the ILS to minimums (as I did Wednesday going into
> > Boston Logan on an Angel Flight) and seeing those beautiful lights in
> > front of you when you are at 250 ft is certainly among THE greatest
> > thrills.
>
> Well, not quite as great a thrill as seeing a mountain when you break
> out at 250'. :-)
>

If you're doing it correctly, you should know where the high terrain is and
there should be no surprise whatsoever.

[George Patterson]

wrote:
> I HATE the foggles. I am required to wear reading glasses when I fly,
> and for good reason. I need them to read charts, plates, and GPS.
> They work fine. But putting on the foggles makes me unable to read
> even with the glasses. So I have to look down, raise the foggles
> enough to be able to read, and then replace them. It sucks.

Get a set of half-glasses made.

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.

[George Patterson]

David Cartwright wrote:
>
> Foggles, and in fact all the other vision limiting devices that you attach
> yourself, are a pain in the butt.

In that case, maybe you should get your head out of there. :-)

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.

[Clyde Torres]

"Cockpit Colin" > wrote in message
...
>> Because flying above the clouds, etc., is the second biggest thrill,
>> after
>> sex.
>
> I thought sex was for people who didn't fly aeroplanes?

You obviously aren't a member of the mile high club or the down to earth
club.

[Clyde Torres]

"xxx" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.
>
> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?

The instrument rating is not for everyone, xxx. If you are having problems
understanding why you are getting it, then you are in the wrong program.
It's just like flying VFR - it's not for everyone. You know what you want
and your limitations. You make the decision.

Clyde Torres

[Matt Whiting]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Actually, flying the ILS to minimums (as I did Wednesday going into
>>>Boston Logan on an Angel Flight) and seeing those beautiful lights in
>>>front of you when you are at 250 ft is certainly among THE greatest
>>>thrills.
>>
>>Well, not quite as great a thrill as seeing a mountain when you break
>>out at 250'. :-)
>>
>
>
> If you're doing it correctly, you should know where the high terrain is and
> there should be no surprise whatsoever.

What part of :-) didn't you understand?

Matt

[Seany]

Oh, I don't know ..... as wonderful as sex is .... flying at any altitude is
better!!!!


"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
> "xxx" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
>> fun.
>>
>> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
> Because flying above the clouds, etc., is the second biggest thrill, after
> sex.
>
>

[Matt Barrow]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
> >>
> >>Well, not quite as great a thrill as seeing a mountain when you break
> >>out at 250'. :-)
> >>
> >
> >
> > If you're doing it correctly, you should know where the high terrain is
and
> > there should be no surprise whatsoever.
>
> What part of :-) didn't you understand?
>

I thought the :-) referred to your use of the word "thrill".

Driving 165MPH on the German Autobahn was "thrilling"; skidding in one of
the curves was not "thrilling". :~(


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Seany" > wrote in message
...
> Oh, I don't know ..... as wonderful as sex is .... flying at any altitude
is
> better!!!!
>

Gratitious remark about your sexuality....um, avoided! :~)

Matt

>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "xxx" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> >> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> >> fun.
> >>
> >> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
> > Because flying above the clouds, etc., is the second biggest thrill,
after
> > sex.
> >
> >
>
>

[aluckyguess]

"Seany" > wrote in message
...
> Oh, I don't know ..... as wonderful as sex is .... flying at any altitude
> is better!!!!
> Try having sex with humans!
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "xxx" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
>>> fun.
>>>
>>> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>> Because flying above the clouds, etc., is the second biggest thrill,
>> after
>> sex.
>>
>>
>
>

[Andrew Sarangan]

I cannot disagree more. I was in the same boat several years ago. I
wondered why an instrument rating was necessary. Now I am a CFII, and an
active instrument pilot. I fly IFR all the time, business trips, pleasure
trips etc.. Just because someone is asking a basic question does not mean
they are incapable of understanding.



"Clyde Torres" > wrote in
:

>
> "xxx" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
>> fun.
>>
>> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>
> The instrument rating is not for everyone, xxx. If you are having
> problems understanding why you are getting it, then you are in the
> wrong program. It's just like flying VFR - it's not for everyone. You
> know what you want and your limitations. You make the decision.
>
> Clyde Torres
>
>
>

[Matt Whiting]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Matt Barrow wrote:
>>
>>>>Well, not quite as great a thrill as seeing a mountain when you break
>>>>out at 250'. :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>If you're doing it correctly, you should know where the high terrain is
>
> and
>
>>>there should be no surprise whatsoever.
>>
>>What part of :-) didn't you understand?
>>
>
>
> I thought the :-) referred to your use of the word "thrill".
>
> Driving 165MPH on the German Autobahn was "thrilling"; skidding in one of
> the curves was not "thrilling". :~(
>
>

I guess it depends on how you get your thrills. :-)


Matt

[Seany]

"aluckyguess" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Seany" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Oh, I don't know ..... as wonderful as sex is .... flying at any altitude
>> is better!!!!
>> Try having sex with humans!


Ouch .......

Oh I do, on a very regular basis.
But lets face it .... an hour at the yoke or a roll in the hay .......

Unless it is someone like Ms Jolie .... it's the yoke 75% of the time I
reckon :-)

[[email protected]]

I sometimes wonder about using NDB approaches. Believe it or not, many
charter airlines have to rely on NDB's to fly approaches into airports
below VFR. Instrument training is definately challenging but its worth
it if in fact you will use it. The best thing to stay current is
whenever you fly a cross-country, file it as an instrument flight plan
and bring a buddy along with at least a PPC in the same category,
class, etc. as a safety pilot. If its VFR out, great, you have
something besides pilotage to double-check your course and if there's
IMC ahead, then you know you're in the clear because you are already on
the IFR flight plan (excluding, icing, TS or any adverse weather). Even
in VFR, with a safety pilot you can practice Instrument Approaches
under the hood and maintain currency.

[[email protected]]

xxx wrote:
> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
> fun.

Join the club. I'm rated and I still don't consider IFR training to be
"fun." The first 20 or so hours are a bear as you are struggling to
integrate so many pieces together and are spending most of your time
behind the airplane. Stick with it and it will eventually come around.
The key is frequency- if you're flying less than twice a week you're
making it harder for yourself.

> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?

The best reason I know is because you want to use your airplane for
transportation with some reliability. Of course, not every
pilot/airplane is up to every trip, but having the rating is pretty
much a prerequisite for this in much of the US.

[Michael]

I got my PPL last year in July....age 52..I flew more than 300 hours in
this last year most of it VFR and training hours...just a couple of
weeks ago got my IR. Why did I do it?

On a long cross country from Long Island to Florida earlier this year I
found myself at 6,500 feet over a lovely scattered cloud
layer...somewhere over Maryland. Just sat back listened to ATC and let
the autopilot fly...about 45 minutes later I looked down and it was no
longer scattered...it was now broken...just an occassional glimpse of
the ground...my pulse started to quicken.I had more than 6 hours of
fuel in the Cessna 182 I was flying...but I was looking ahead at a
hundred miles of beautiful on top flying. I called FSS, 'fessed up and
asked how long it would be until I saw a break in the clouds...they
took all the information one would normally give for a flight plan and
passed me off to another ATC with a new Squawk code. The ATC guy came
on and vectored me to an airport where they were reporting 4000
scattered...and let me spiral down through the clouds..very relieved
and promising myself not to do that again

That was 4 months ago...Yesterday I flew with friends for breakfast
from FRG to FOK. The conditions: 1200 feet broken, 10 SM at FRG...900
feet overcast 10SM at FOK....What a pleasure compared to scud running
or asking for SVFR at the desination.

That's why you got your IFR ticket. I recommend you use it frequently
even when you don't have to...it will stop being an infliction and
become a great pleasure and accomplishment

[Roger]

On 23 May 2005 05:16:11 -0700, "Michael" > wrote:

>I got my PPL last year in July....age 52..I flew more than 300 hours in
>this last year most of it VFR and training hours...just a couple of
>weeks ago got my IR. Why did I do it?
>
>On a long cross country from Long Island to Florida earlier this year I
>found myself at 6,500 feet over a lovely scattered cloud
>layer...somewhere over Maryland. Just sat back listened to ATC and let
>the autopilot fly...about 45 minutes later I looked down and it was no
>longer scattered...it was now broken...just an occassional glimpse of
>the ground...my pulse started to quicken.I had more than 6 hours of
>fuel in the Cessna 182 I was flying...but I was looking ahead at a
>hundred miles of beautiful on top flying. I called FSS, 'fessed up and

What was there to fess up to? You were still legal. Here in the US
you can legally fly VFR over the top. All you need it VFR at the
start and the end. Although I'd want to have VFR conditions under the
clouds as well. Otherwise I'd not be concerned. OTOH exceeding your
comfort factor is a legitimate reason for diverting.

>asked how long it would be until I saw a break in the clouds...they
>took all the information one would normally give for a flight plan and
>passed me off to another ATC with a new Squawk code. The ATC guy came
>on and vectored me to an airport where they were reporting 4000
>scattered...and let me spiral down through the clouds..very relieved
>and promising myself not to do that again
>
>That was 4 months ago...Yesterday I flew with friends for breakfast
>from FRG to FOK. The conditions: 1200 feet broken, 10 SM at FRG...900
>feet overcast 10SM at FOK....What a pleasure compared to scud running
>or asking for SVFR at the desination.

This is a whole different animal than the layer way up there.

>
>That's why you got your IFR ticket. I recommend you use it frequently
>even when you don't have to...it will stop being an infliction and
>become a great pleasure and accomplishment

To me the IR was a challenge that also gave me more utility out of the
Deb. When traveling at 190 MPH you can have the weather go down hill
in a hurry. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On 22 May 2005 20:35:57 -0700, wrote:

>
>xxx wrote:
>> I've got about 6 hours now and find it not the slightest bit
>> fun.
>
>Join the club. I'm rated and I still don't consider IFR training to be
>"fun." The first 20 or so hours are a bear as you are struggling to

I considered it to be a challenge.
Sure it was work, but as a challenge "which I chose" I may not have
considered it fun, but I did find it very rewarding.

Only on very hot days with some very bodacious thermals did I not like
it. OTOH those are about the roughest rides you will find without
getting into something dangerous.

>integrate so many pieces together and are spending most of your time
>behind the airplane. Stick with it and it will eventually come around.
>The key is frequency- if you're flying less than twice a week you're
>making it harder for yourself.

Depends on the individual. I preferred once a week and it worked well
although we did go twice in the same week, several times.

>
>> Can anyone remind me why I'm inflicting this on myself?
>
>The best reason I know is because you want to use your airplane for
>transportation with some reliability. Of course, not every
>pilot/airplane is up to every trip, but having the rating is pretty
>much a prerequisite for this in much of the US.

Just like climbing the next mountain to see what is on the other side.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Michael]

It's true I was legally VFR "on top"...but I did "confess" to FSS and
ATC that I didn't have anyway down....maybe I should have just sucked
it up and waited for a clearing...but this was the first really long
cross country (>900 miles) I had taken...I was a comfort thing.

[Jose]

> It's true I was legally VFR "on top"...but I did "confess" to FSS and
> ATC that I didn't have anyway down....maybe I should have just sucked
> it up and waited for a clearing.

"Sucking it up" like that gets you dead. If you =think= you are in
trouble (in the air), confess (to the controllers) and take advantage of
what assistance is available.

Jose
r.a.student trimmed, as I don't follow that group
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.