Best Place to Learn to Fly? [Archive]

Brad Salai

May 21st 05, 12:30 PM

I live in upstate NY, and while you can't fly every day, the weather isn't
terrible, it is inexpensive (relative to So. Calif.) and there are
interesting places to fly to close by (but not as many as So Calif.). There
is a club where I live (I'm not a member) that costs $350 to join, $25 a
month dues, and has five airplanes from a Cherokee140 at $50/hr wet, to a
Dakota at $85. The instructor is $22/hr.

On the other hand, I just spent four days in Albequerque, and the weather
there is sweet! Blue skys all the time, you have a hard time finding a
cloud. I actually heard a forcast where they said that there might be a few
clouds on Thursday. Not solid overcast like we get here, a few clouds.

Brad

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi folks,
> If you want to learn to fly and have half a year or more to take off
> and live anywhere in the USA, where would you go to learn to fly?
>
> I ask this because I have the opportunity in 2006 to live anywhere
> (preferably in the US) to fulfill a dream I've had since I was 5. I am
> 25 years old now and am self-employed and therefore can live anywhere
> for the time being on a moderate income of around 50K.
>
> So, if I could focus all of my time and energy on flying lessons, where
> would you go? Alaska? Seattle area?
>
> I am just interested in a PPL, not commercial, but I want to learn from
> the best. I also prefer small town airports to big metros.
>
> So, lets hear it!
>

Gary Drescher

May 21st 05, 12:54 PM

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi folks,
> If you want to learn to fly and have half a year or more to take off
> and live anywhere in the USA, where would you go to learn to fly?
>
> I ask this because I have the opportunity in 2006 to live anywhere
> (preferably in the US) to fulfill a dream I've had since I was 5. I am
> 25 years old now and am self-employed and therefore can live anywhere
> for the time being on a moderate income of around 50K.

If you were trying to cram the instruction into a month, it'd be important
to live somewhere that has good weather almost all the time. But if you have
a few months and a very flexible schedule, you might consider living
somewhere that has more interesting weather (the Northeast, for example), so
you can encounter a variety of weather conditions during your training.
Similarly, if you prefer to learn at a small airport, you might still
consider one that's not far from complex airspace and large airports, so you
can gain familiarity with both kinds of environments. Somewhere near
mountains might also be good if you'd like to include training in mountain
flying.

--Gary

Andrew Sarangan

May 21st 05, 01:00 PM

Go to New Mexico. You can fly every day, enjoy breathtaking mountains and
it is very inexpensive.

wrote in news:1116650149.869157.26980
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Hi folks,
> If you want to learn to fly and have half a year or more to take off
> and live anywhere in the USA, where would you go to learn to fly?
>
> I ask this because I have the opportunity in 2006 to live anywhere
> (preferably in the US) to fulfill a dream I've had since I was 5. I am
> 25 years old now and am self-employed and therefore can live anywhere
> for the time being on a moderate income of around 50K.
>
> So, if I could focus all of my time and energy on flying lessons, where
> would you go? Alaska? Seattle area?
>
> I am just interested in a PPL, not commercial, but I want to learn from
> the best. I also prefer small town airports to big metros.
>
> So, lets hear it!
>

Matt Whiting

May 21st 05, 01:44 PM

Brad Salai wrote:

> I live in upstate NY, and while you can't fly every day, the weather isn't
> terrible, it is inexpensive (relative to So. Calif.) and there are
> interesting places to fly to close by (but not as many as So Calif.). There
> is a club where I live (I'm not a member) that costs $350 to join, $25 a
> month dues, and has five airplanes from a Cherokee140 at $50/hr wet, to a
> Dakota at $85. The instructor is $22/hr.
>
> On the other hand, I just spent four days in Albequerque, and the weather
> there is sweet! Blue skys all the time, you have a hard time finding a
> cloud. I actually heard a forcast where they said that there might be a few
> clouds on Thursday. Not solid overcast like we get here, a few clouds.

We call that "clear" in PA! :-)

Matt

aluckyguess

May 21st 05, 03:07 PM

You may want to try along the Southern Ca. coast during the summer and then
come inland during the winter.
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi folks,
> If you want to learn to fly and have half a year or more to take off
> and live anywhere in the USA, where would you go to learn to fly?
>
> I ask this because I have the opportunity in 2006 to live anywhere
> (preferably in the US) to fulfill a dream I've had since I was 5. I am
> 25 years old now and am self-employed and therefore can live anywhere
> for the time being on a moderate income of around 50K.
>
> So, if I could focus all of my time and energy on flying lessons, where
> would you go? Alaska? Seattle area?
>
> I am just interested in a PPL, not commercial, but I want to learn from
> the best. I also prefer small town airports to big metros.
>
> So, lets hear it!
>

H.P.

May 21st 05, 04:25 PM

If your looking for quality training, look at Florida. There are tons of
flight schools, among them are the very best with brand new fleets of
Cessnas, Diamonds, etc.

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi folks,
> If you want to learn to fly and have half a year or more to take off
> and live anywhere in the USA, where would you go to learn to fly?
>
> I ask this because I have the opportunity in 2006 to live anywhere
> (preferably in the US) to fulfill a dream I've had since I was 5. I am
> 25 years old now and am self-employed and therefore can live anywhere
> for the time being on a moderate income of around 50K.
>
> So, if I could focus all of my time and energy on flying lessons, where
> would you go? Alaska? Seattle area?
>
> I am just interested in a PPL, not commercial, but I want to learn from
> the best. I also prefer small town airports to big metros.
>
> So, lets hear it!
>

[email protected]

May 21st 05, 04:31 PM

wrote:
> Hi folks,
> If you want to learn to fly and have half a year or more to take off
> and live anywhere in the USA, where would you go to learn to fly?

Fort Collins, Colorado!

Mountains, high density altitude, warm days, cool nights (it cools off
every night), learn to fly in a fun environment, ~50 miles north of
Denver, so close access to class B, C, D, AND we have "uncontrolled
airspace nearby" (difficult to find east of the Mississippi River), or
the coasts.

Rocky Mountain National Park is within 50 miles. Aspen and Steamboat
Springs are easy driving and flying distance... hot springs pools
in the mountains...

Did I mention the beauty of Mountain Flying?

Beautiful!

> I ask this because I have the opportunity in 2006 to live anywhere
> (preferably in the US) to fulfill a dream I've had since I was 5. I am
> 25 years old now and am self-employed and therefore can live anywhere
> for the time being on a moderate income of around 50K.

Yup... I got the bug at an early age... and fresh out of college at
age 21, I learned to fly... now 52, and do not regret the time or $$
invested. I'm conducting flight training, and am a checkpilot for
Civil Air Patrol doing mountain search and rescue... airborne!

> So, if I could focus all of my time and energy on flying lessons, where
> would you go? Alaska? Seattle area?

Sea level is nice, but learning to fly at a higher altitude (5000 feet
MSL) gives you a much better education about aerodynamics and density
altitude.

You CAN't focus all of my time and energy on flying lesson. You won't
retain enough information... much better to take 3-5 months, fly 2-3
times a week in varying weather conditions and LEARN cross wind
operations and high density altitude operations.

In your SPARE time, go see the countryside.

In your SPARE time, go soaring (soaring is when you are going up...
gliding is when you are going donw), at the local gliderport,
Colorado Soaring Association, Owl Canyuon Gliderport (4CO2).
http://www.soarcsa.org/

> I am just interested in a PPL, not commercial, but I want to learn from
> the best. I also prefer small town airports to big metros.

Here we are! Friendly little small town airport (Fort Collins
Downtown Airport), FAA designator = 3V5. Near enough to Denver,
Colorado to do "big city things", yet far enough away to be peaceful.

> So, lets hear it!

Since you asked!

Check us out at: http://poudreaviation.com

Or... my mountain flying web page... with writeups and a few pictures
and descriptions about mountain flying. The PATTERN altitude at
Leadville, Colorado, USA is 11,000 MSL! I am there often, flying in
the mountains (safely) is GRAND!

http://users.frii.com/jer/

Send email, give me a call.

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 227 Young Eagles!

ShawnD2112

May 21st 05, 04:44 PM

See, I actually disagree with the idea about learning in busy airspace.
Learn to fly the airplane first, then learn about aviation later. Granted
you have to do all that to get a PPL but the noise and distraction of
radios, other traffic, VORs and all that jazz really distract from the
basics of stick and rudder skills and pilotage.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd learn in a Cub or a Taylorcraft at a
little farm strip in the middle of nowhere, at least until time for my QXC,
then I'd move into a 152 with all the kit and learn how to talk to people.

My .02 worth.

Also, give some thought to Arizona or Florida which have excellent weather
but not the intensity of the traffic that SoCal has.

Shawn
"Ben Hallert" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Southern California. Weather has a huge effect on how often you can
> fly. I trained at SMO Santa Monica and was able to fly almost every
> day. Now I live in Oregon, and there are nowhere near as many
> opportunities.
>
> SoCal all the way. Plus, you get to learn in a busy airspace that'll
> prepare you to fly almost anywhere. It's a great learning environment.
>

John Gaquin

May 21st 05, 05:36 PM

> wrote in message .

> Hi folks,
> If you want to learn to fly .... .
>
> So, if I could focus all of my time and energy on flying lessons, where
> would you go? .

Conduct a search, as you are doing. Use other methods as well, although at
the moment I don't know quite what to suggest. The net will give you the
broadest reach in the shortest time. The point is this: Find yourself a
small airport in a rural or semi rural area, with a little flight school
thats been around for years, with at least a couple of old coots who have
been flying 45 years or so doing some teaching. Latch on to one of these
guys - they've got more aviation in their blood than you'll ever find in a
book.

Get a place to live, and find some kind of simple job. You apparently won't
need the money, but you will need something to keep you occupied in your
non-flying time. You shouldn't fly all the time - you need breaks to allow
the knowledge to settle in. Fly about 3 times a week, and hang around the
field some of the other time, but not all the time. You'll learn a lot
there, too.

The school should have some sort of common area - a lounge, or a front porch
in nice weather - where the regulars hang around and talk flying, even when
they're not scheduled. Furniture should be some old overstuffed chairs and
an old sofa, cast off from someone's house, and there has to be a real
coffeepot - not a machine. Check to see if at least some of the instructors
hang around and shoot the bull when they're finished, or if they pack up and
bolt right away. Its easy enough to find an "Aviation Academy" that's all
stainless steel and glass, with a legion of anal 23 year-old instructors who
can recite the FARs and the POH verbatim and debate airspace arcana all day.
What you need to find is a flying school, where you can learn to be an
aviator - no one can teach you, they just guide you in the right direction
until it clicks. You have to pick it up yourself. Once you've got that,
you can pick up all the rest either from a short stint at a production
school, or by reading books.

Don't cut yourself short on this. The difference is between absorbing it or
simply learning it, and the value inherent in the fomer won't be apparent
for several years. Good luck.

Gene Seibel

May 21st 05, 05:50 PM

I second that.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

Ben Hallert

May 21st 05, 09:53 PM

Some great points Shawn, but I wonder if it's that clear cut. I now
live in Oregon where most people learn basically how you described.
Something that's becoming increasingly clear is that the pilots around
here really don't like using the radio. They get uncomfortable talking
to controllers, and talk about how they never file VFR flight plans,
use Flight Following, or any of that.

The other day, I flew to Portland. When I mentioned where I was going,
all the guys in the lounge looked both interested and nervous, and a
couple of them made comments to the effect of how they don't feel
comfortable in controlled space (presumably class D-). I've heard
another pilot refer to class C as his personal class B.

Where I learned, I didn't have a choice but to pick up the radio stuff,
and it took hardly any time. I don't think I missed out on learning
any flying basics, and the added load during training with the
instructor onboard helped me learn important cockpit resource
management. I have a feeling that people who learn in the boonies
might be at disadvantage when entering stricter airspace. Not because
they are worse pilots, but because they're having to spend brainpower
figuring out/using unfamiliar radio procedures while navigating in a
high traffic, unfamiliar environment. I had that, but I learned with
an instructor in the right seat to be my net until I had it down pat.

I mentioned that I had transitioned class bravo down in SoCal, and only
one other guy at the lounge had done that, and it was this alien,
exciting thing for them to hear about. These guys are way better
pilots then I am, but high traffic/class bcd airspace intimidates them,
and that's just not right.

gyoung

May 22nd 05, 02:55 AM

I, too, second that! And I recommend Albuquerque, a city with a small
town ambiance.

You will have the opportunity to experience a nearly full range of
flying - open spaces, hot and cold temperatures, a relatively high
altitude (expect to train in something bigger than a C-152 or like
trainer), an uncrowded Class C airspace for the procedures practice,
flat land and mountains, windy and calm conditions, you name it but
mostly blue skies (CAVU means severe clear and visibility like 50 miles,
not the 5 or 10 miles used as the standard elsewhere in the country).
And I too judge it to be inexpensive.

New Mexico has a wonderful culture, the most distinctive in the country
(I think). And -real- New Mexican food (which most Mexican restaurants
elsewhere in the US try to emulate, by and large unsuccessfully). Let
me add - in October, the biggest Balloon Festival around - don't miss it.

george

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> Go to New Mexico. You can fly every day, enjoy breathtaking mountains and
> it is very inexpensive.
>
>
>
> wrote in news:1116650149.869157.26980
> @g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>Hi folks,
>> If you want to learn to fly and have half a year or more to take off
>>and live anywhere in the USA, where would you go to learn to fly?
>>
>>I ask this because I have the opportunity in 2006 to live anywhere
>>(preferably in the US) to fulfill a dream I've had since I was 5. I am
>>25 years old now and am self-employed and therefore can live anywhere
>>for the time being on a moderate income of around 50K.
>>
>>So, if I could focus all of my time and energy on flying lessons, where
>>would you go? Alaska? Seattle area?
>>
>>I am just interested in a PPL, not commercial, but I want to learn from
>>the best. I also prefer small town airports to big metros.
>>
>>So, lets hear it!
>>
>
>

Morgans

May 22nd 05, 04:31 AM

"ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
. uk...
> See, I actually disagree with the idea about learning in busy airspace.
> Learn to fly the airplane first, then learn about aviation later. Granted
> you have to do all that to get a PPL but the noise and distraction of
> radios, other traffic, VORs and all that jazz really distract from the
> basics of stick and rudder skills and pilotage.

Well, the instructor could be doing most of the radio work for the beginning
flights, and you would be listening in, learning. When the instructor
thought you were more comfortable, you could start doing the radio work.

It must work, since tons of people have done it that way. But, ....
Different strokes for different folks, makes the world go round.
--
Jim in NC

Blanche Cohen

May 22nd 05, 04:44 AM

As sunny and warm as SoCal and Florida....both are very expensive. But
then, flying is expensive, all things considered. Florida is
unbelievably humid (and this coming from someone who lived in Houston, TX
for 7 years!) and has hurricanes. Just saw on the news that New Piper
is finally back into full production, after almost a year.

Yeah -- try Fort Collins.

[This has been an unpaid, non-political announcement]

tony roberts

May 22nd 05, 07:46 AM

Snipped for brevity . . .
> So, lets hear it!

You don't say where you live now.
The USA is not automatically your best choice - especially with all of
their restrictions for training aliens right now (and in the USA you
don't necessarily have to look like ET to qualify as an alien :)
Do you want to fly wheels/floats/amphibs/skis? You don't say.

>I also prefer small town airports to big metros.
Why? What experience do you have in either to qualify you to make that
distinction? A PP-ASEL should be able to take you anywhere, and
rereading your original post, it sounds as though you are looking for a
licence that will allow that.

>I also prefer small town airports to big metros
You don't "usually" find the best instructors in small towns.

I'm not attempting to push you in any direction - I'm merely suggesting
that you delay your final decision and keep asking all of the right
questions.

Good luck to you - I hope that you find exactly what you need.
Anything less than the best training can kill you - take the time and
find the best - it isn't a race - it's the start of a good habit that
you can build on.

You are embarking on a great adventure
and you won't regret it.

Keep us posted,

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

In article om>,
wrote:

> Hi folks,
> If you want to learn to fly and have half a year or more to take off
> and live anywhere in the USA, where would you go to learn to fly?
>
> I ask this because I have the opportunity in 2006 to live anywhere
> (preferably in the US) to fulfill a dream I've had since I was 5. I am
> 25 years old now and am self-employed and therefore can live anywhere
> for the time being on a moderate income of around 50K.
>
> So, if I could focus all of my time and energy on flying lessons, where
> would you go? Alaska? Seattle area?
>
> I am just interested in a PPL, not commercial, but I want to learn from
> the best. I also prefer small town airports to big metros.
>
> So, lets hear it!

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

Cub Driver

May 22nd 05, 11:29 AM

On Sat, 21 May 2005 15:44:58 GMT, "ShawnD2112"
> wrote:

>If I had to do it all over again, I'd learn in a Cub or a Taylorcraft at a
>little farm strip in the middle of nowhere, at least until time for my QXC,
>then I'd move into a 152 with all the kit and learn how to talk to people.

Given that the poster said he had six months to do it in, I think this
is a great idea. Come to Hampton NH this summer or early fall and solo
the Cub, meanwhile enjoying the beach life. Then go off to San Diego
CA and do the spam can / ATC bit. Then it's late enough in the year to
brave Chandler AZ and do stalls and aerobatics in a two-cockpit Great
Lakes biplane....

That will be six months to remember the rest of his life.

-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

Cub Driver

May 22nd 05, 11:32 AM

On Sat, 21 May 2005 11:30:57 GMT, "Brad Salai"
> wrote:

>On the other hand, I just spent four days in Albequerque, and the weather
>there is sweet! Blue skys all the time, you have a hard time finding a
>cloud. I actually heard a forcast where they said that there might be a few
>clouds on Thursday. Not solid overcast like we get here, a few clouds.

When I used to visit my father, who worked at the airplane boneyard at
Davis Monthan AFB in Tucson AZ, I would see the fighter jets scramble
every time a cloud came over. They were HUNGRY to fly MCI, if only for
a moment.

-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

Cub Driver

May 22nd 05, 11:34 AM

On Sat, 21 May 2005 07:54:40 -0400, "Gary Drescher"
> wrote:

>somewhere that has more interesting weather (the Northeast, for example), so
>you can encounter a variety of weather conditions during your training.

Just as the poster from Oregon worried that you don't get enough radio
practice if you learn in the boonies, the wx is certainly a factor for
someone who is going to be doing his flying in Britain. The weather in
AZ or SOCAL is not much preparation for that.

-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

Cub Driver

May 22nd 05, 11:38 AM

On Sat, 21 May 2005 12:36:37 -0400, "John Gaquin"
> wrote:

>Get a place to live, and find some kind of simple job. You apparently won't
>need the money, but you will need something to keep you occupied in your
>non-flying time. You shouldn't fly all the time - you need breaks to allow
>the knowledge to settle in. Fly about 3 times a week, and hang around the
>field some of the other time, but not all the time. You'll learn a lot
>there, too.

Evidently he brings his own job with him. It would be a great system.
I have twice taken a week of intensive training, two lessons a day,
and it was really punishing for me (I started flying at 68). I think
three 90-minute lessons a week would be ideal.

As for hanging about the airport, that suggests choosing a small one.

-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

Blueskies

May 22nd 05, 01:52 PM

"Ben Hallert" > wrote in message ups.com...
> Southern California.

50K a year and So. Cal does not mix...

gregg

May 22nd 05, 04:52 PM

Blanche Cohen wrote:

> As sunny and warm as SoCal and Florida....both are very expensive. But
> then, flying is expensive, all things considered. Florida is
> unbelievably humid (and this coming from someone who lived in Houston, TX
> for 7 years!) and has hurricanes. Just saw on the news that New Piper
> is finally back into full production, after almost a year.
>
> Yeah -- try Fort Collins.
>
> [This has been an unpaid, non-political announcement]

Dunno about SoCal, but I lived in Florida for 9 years and to my way of
thinking, it's not the best place. Yes you avoid winter blizzards and cold
weather. But on the other hand, it rains right around 3 pm every day -
especially in the summer - and there's tornados in addition to the
hurricanes. Bad thunderstorms to.

"Hot and humid" for me, is a Bad Thing(tm), but that's a personal choice.

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

gregg

May 22nd 05, 05:13 PM

ShawnD2112 wrote:

> If I had to do it all over again, I'd learn in a Cub or a Taylorcraft at a
> little farm strip in the middle of nowhere, at least until time for my
> QXC, then I'd move into a 152 with all the kit and learn how to talk to
> people.

Hi Shawn,

I am in the middle of getting my taildragger endorsement - in a 1944 J-3
Cub. This baby was built for the Army and has the birdcage for the back
seat - great visibility. I find it outrageous fun. I got my PPL with 152's
and moved to Warriors after that. But this...so much more fun, more
challenging, in it's own way.

Doing this makes me wonder, at times, if students would be better off
starting out in something like a J-3. I think learning TD's makes me a much
better pilot..because it's a J-3 with a narrower envelope than even a 152
or a Warrior; because TD flying takes "feel" - especially since you can't
always see what few instruments you have with a CFI in front...and what few
you have don't include things like Turn and Bank and Artificial Horizons or
vert speed, etc. so, for example, your eyes have to be on the horizon, in
turns.

All that's a benefit, as I say, but it might extend time to solo out, and
these days people like to progress quickly. So starting students out in
TD's might not be best overall. It might add too many complications at the
start. But oftentimes I wonder if it would be worth it.

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

Casey Wilson

May 22nd 05, 06:10 PM

I kind of figured you'd get lots of divers opinions about that
subject, and I was right. Thing is, they are all right too, in their own
way. I won't try and tell you where the "Best Place" is, but I'll tell you
my experience.
I did all my primary training out of Inyokern (IYK) near the
northern boundaries of California's share of the Mojave Desert. The eastern
face of the Sierra Madre towers several thousand feet above the airport's
three runways. Occasionally the winds whip up from the S and SW with enough
force to sandblast paint. In the summer, temperatures can exceed 120 F on
the runway surface. Winter temperatures plummet into the teens every winter
and every couple of years the snow will pile up several inches on the
runway. Thermals are numerous and bounce aircraft every which way,
especially on short final. IYK is imbedded deep inside Special Use Airspace
and inside one MOA. R-2505 is so close to the airport that runway 20
requires right traffic to remain clear.
I am particularly glad I did my primary at IYK because, as my
instructor told me, "If you can learn to fly here, you can fly anywhere!"
That was while I was crabbing down a runway, flying into a 30+K, 90-degree
crosswind. We did another pass a few minutes later in a slip. None of that
was required in the PTS, Bob wanted me to learn how to handle crosswinds.
Was that the best place to learn to fly? It was for me. Density
altitude was a fact of life, sometimes even in the winter, not a text book
drill. Cross winds and turbulence, the same. Learning to navigate SUA was a
reality. Cross-country over mountain ridges an absolute necessity.
Go learn to fly somewhere where the air is silky, the ground is flat
to the horizon in every direction, and the winds hardly get above a
breeze -- if you want to. But if you want to experience reality, find a
place like IYK.

AES

May 22nd 05, 06:24 PM

In article om>,
"Ben Hallert" > wrote:

> Southern California. Weather has a huge effect on how often you can
> fly. I trained at SMO Santa Monica and was able to fly almost every
> day. Now I live in Oregon, and there are nowhere near as many
> opportunities.
>
> SoCal all the way. Plus, you get to learn in a busy airspace that'll
> prepare you to fly almost anywhere. It's a great learning environment.

Or somewhere in the San Joaquin Valley or lower Sierra foothills, like
Fresno, Sacramento, Stockton, or further north or south of those.

Maybe not quite as good weather, but pretty darn good. Probably
significantly lower cost. Increasingly good job opportunities these
days.

And easy access to both San Francisco and SoCal area attractions (via
either wings or wheels) when you want them -- plus Yosemite, Tahoe,
Carmel, the Delta, the Sierra, Shasta, etc.

Or Reno area: more remote from some of these attractions, but surely
cheaper, and steadily becoming a more interesting place.

But I have no idea where the best flight training options (instructors,
FBOs) would be found in any of those regions.

ShawnD2112

May 22nd 05, 10:11 PM

Ben,
I think there's a valid point in what you're saying. Lack of confidence
keeps people from really going out and experiencing things they've learned
about, and that needs to be overcome.

What it points to for me is that maybe there ought to be two phases to
training, more distinct than they are now. There's the flying part, (Cub,
farmstrip, stick and rudder) and there's the aviation part (radios, nav
aids, ATC, other officialdom). Many of the pilots I know are perfectly
comfortable going into Class D airspace but would by absolutely useless in
anything other than near perfect conditions and enormous runways - they can
aviate but they can't fly. I learned at Scott AFB, mixing it up with C-9s,
helos, A-10s and anything else that came in transient. Every movement was
with full ATC. I could handle all that stuff. But I didn't learn how to
really fly an airplane until I got into a Cub group and spent hours in the
pattern learning how to really handle the machine.

My point, I guess, is that radio skills and aviation confidence are
necessary, but I'd rather see someone learn how to fly the airplane properly
before being distracted with the other things too early in training. But,
that's just how I see it from the perspective of a 400 hour PPL, so that's
all the value the opinion has. I guess it's a bit like learning to drive.
Your old man probably took you to an enormous parking lot somewhere first so
you could learn how to work the pedals and turn the car without hitting
anything. Later he took you out on the streets where you had to deal with
traffic lights, signs, and other drivers.

Shawn

"Ben Hallert" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Some great points Shawn, but I wonder if it's that clear cut. I now
> live in Oregon where most people learn basically how you described.
> Something that's becoming increasingly clear is that the pilots around
> here really don't like using the radio. They get uncomfortable talking
> to controllers, and talk about how they never file VFR flight plans,
> use Flight Following, or any of that.
>
> The other day, I flew to Portland. When I mentioned where I was going,
> all the guys in the lounge looked both interested and nervous, and a
> couple of them made comments to the effect of how they don't feel
> comfortable in controlled space (presumably class D-). I've heard
> another pilot refer to class C as his personal class B.
>
> Where I learned, I didn't have a choice but to pick up the radio stuff,
> and it took hardly any time. I don't think I missed out on learning
> any flying basics, and the added load during training with the
> instructor onboard helped me learn important cockpit resource
> management. I have a feeling that people who learn in the boonies
> might be at disadvantage when entering stricter airspace. Not because
> they are worse pilots, but because they're having to spend brainpower
> figuring out/using unfamiliar radio procedures while navigating in a
> high traffic, unfamiliar environment. I had that, but I learned with
> an instructor in the right seat to be my net until I had it down pat.
>
> I mentioned that I had transitioned class bravo down in SoCal, and only
> one other guy at the lounge had done that, and it was this alien,
> exciting thing for them to hear about. These guys are way better
> pilots then I am, but high traffic/class bcd airspace intimidates them,
> and that's just not right.
>

ShawnD2112

May 22nd 05, 10:13 PM

Exactly, Jim, and that's how I learned as well. Only after gaining some
experience (and, to be fair, deciding that spam-can cross country flying
wasn't what I wanted to do) did I start to form this view. Not appropriate
for someone looking to really go places in airplanes or a
commercial-soon-to-be, maybe, but for my style of flying it would be very
suitable.

Cheers,
Shawn
"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
> . uk...
>> See, I actually disagree with the idea about learning in busy airspace.
>> Learn to fly the airplane first, then learn about aviation later.
>> Granted
>> you have to do all that to get a PPL but the noise and distraction of
>> radios, other traffic, VORs and all that jazz really distract from the
>> basics of stick and rudder skills and pilotage.
>
> Well, the instructor could be doing most of the radio work for the
> beginning
> flights, and you would be listening in, learning. When the instructor
> thought you were more comfortable, you could start doing the radio work.
>
> It must work, since tons of people have done it that way. But, ....
> Different strokes for different folks, makes the world go round.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

ShawnD2112

May 22nd 05, 10:18 PM

That's a very good, point, Dan. Hell, I didn't know you could fly in the
rain until I moved here. Didn't really understand what showers were or that
you could fly through or around them. Totally opened up my flying when I
moved here!

This whole discussion just proves that point that the PPL is just a license
to learn because there is simply so much that can't be covered during
training but that is very relevant to flying. Personally, I felt too
inexperienced to actually have a ticket when I got it, but my instructor and
examiner obviously thought otherwise. They were right, as it turned out.

Shawn
"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 21 May 2005 07:54:40 -0400, "Gary Drescher"
> > wrote:
>
>>somewhere that has more interesting weather (the Northeast, for example),
>>so
>>you can encounter a variety of weather conditions during your training.
>
> Just as the poster from Oregon worried that you don't get enough radio
> practice if you learn in the boonies, the wx is certainly a factor for
> someone who is going to be doing his flying in Britain. The weather in
> AZ or SOCAL is not much preparation for that.
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford
>
> email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog: www.danford.net
> In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

ShawnD2112

May 22nd 05, 10:22 PM

Gregg,

I totally agree with paragraphs 1 and 2, I think you lost your way in 3.
For day VFR pilots, and that's what students are until they start working on
night flying, the only instruments you need are a tacho, altimeter, airspeed
indicator, and a ball. If you have enough time in a machine later, you
don't even need most of those.

To me, most of the stuff inside the cockpit of a 152 is distraction from
learning to feel and fly the machine. You don't learn to drive by staring
at the tacho and speedometer. You look out the window, hear the engine, and
check your speedo every once in a while. Flying ought to be that simple in
the early stages.

Shawn
"gregg" > wrote in message
...
> ShawnD2112 wrote:
>
>
>> If I had to do it all over again, I'd learn in a Cub or a Taylorcraft at
>> a
>> little farm strip in the middle of nowhere, at least until time for my
>> QXC, then I'd move into a 152 with all the kit and learn how to talk to
>> people.
>
> Hi Shawn,
>
> I am in the middle of getting my taildragger endorsement - in a 1944 J-3
> Cub. This baby was built for the Army and has the birdcage for the back
> seat - great visibility. I find it outrageous fun. I got my PPL with 152's
> and moved to Warriors after that. But this...so much more fun, more
> challenging, in it's own way.
>
> Doing this makes me wonder, at times, if students would be better off
> starting out in something like a J-3. I think learning TD's makes me a
> much
> better pilot..because it's a J-3 with a narrower envelope than even a 152
> or a Warrior; because TD flying takes "feel" - especially since you can't
> always see what few instruments you have with a CFI in front...and what
> few
> you have don't include things like Turn and Bank and Artificial Horizons
> or
> vert speed, etc. so, for example, your eyes have to be on the horizon, in
> turns.
>
> All that's a benefit, as I say, but it might extend time to solo out, and
> these days people like to progress quickly. So starting students out in
> TD's might not be best overall. It might add too many complications at the
> start. But oftentimes I wonder if it would be worth it.
>
> --
> Saville
>
> Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html
>
> Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
>
> Steambending FAQ with photos:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm
>

gregg

May 23rd 05, 01:10 AM

ShawnD2112 wrote:

> Gregg,
>
> I totally agree with paragraphs 1 and 2, I think you lost your way in 3.
> For day VFR pilots, and that's what students are until they start working
> on night flying, the only instruments you need are a tacho, altimeter,
> airspeed
> indicator, and a ball. If you have enough time in a machine later, you
> don't even need most of those.
>
> To me, most of the stuff inside the cockpit of a 152 is distraction from
> learning to feel and fly the machine. You don't learn to drive by staring
> at the tacho and speedometer. You look out the window, hear the engine,
> and
> check your speedo every once in a while. Flying ought to be that simple
> in the early stages.
>
> Shawn
> "gregg" > wrote in message
> ...
>> ShawnD2112 wrote:
>>
>>
>>> If I had to do it all over again, I'd learn in a Cub or a Taylorcraft at
>>> a
>>> little farm strip in the middle of nowhere, at least until time for my
>>> QXC, then I'd move into a 152 with all the kit and learn how to talk to
>>> people.
>>
>> Hi Shawn,
>>
>> I am in the middle of getting my taildragger endorsement - in a 1944 J-3
>> Cub. This baby was built for the Army and has the birdcage for the back
>> seat - great visibility. I find it outrageous fun. I got my PPL with
>> 152's and moved to Warriors after that. But this...so much more fun, more
>> challenging, in it's own way.
>>
>> Doing this makes me wonder, at times, if students would be better off
>> starting out in something like a J-3. I think learning TD's makes me a
>> much
>> better pilot..because it's a J-3 with a narrower envelope than even a 152
>> or a Warrior; because TD flying takes "feel" - especially since you can't
>> always see what few instruments you have with a CFI in front...and what
>> few
>> you have don't include things like Turn and Bank and Artificial Horizons
>> or
>> vert speed, etc. so, for example, your eyes have to be on the horizon, in
>> turns.
>>
>> All that's a benefit, as I say, but it might extend time to solo out, and
>> these days people like to progress quickly. So starting students out in
>> TD's might not be best overall. It might add too many complications at
>> the start. But oftentimes I wonder if it would be worth it.

Shawn,

"lost my way"? I view it more as not having a finished opinion, and seeing
pluses and minuses to the notion. Paragraphs one and two are sort of
pluses; paragraph 3 are some possible minuses. And there are probably other
considerations I haven't even thought of.

Also, I'm freely mixing the TD aspects of this with the "fewer instruments"
aspects, as well as performance differences between the two types. More a
stream of consciousness, than anything else.

cheers,

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

[email protected]

May 23rd 05, 03:47 AM

wrote:
> Hi folks,
> If you want to learn to fly and have half a year or more to take off
> and live anywhere in the USA, where would you go to learn to fly?

All depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Do you want an
instrument, seaplane, or multi rating too? Is this just a
once-in-a-lifetime adventure, or are you going to take these skills
home with you?

The East and West coasts are nice but expensive. $50k/year income won't
go very far if you're living in a major metropolitan area.

Alaska is amazing. If nothing else, go up there and get your floatplane
rating. I did mind with a place called Alaska Float Ratings and it was
phenomenal. Just keep in mind it's very seasonal there, mostly
May-September.

I'm partial to the Northeast US, but that's because I'm from here. The
Portland, Maine area might be worth sniffing around. You've got your
farm strips and class C fields, ocean coast and mountains. The weather
is variable but nicest in the fall, and if you want to get an
instrument rating, you'll get plenty of actual IMC.

Portland itself is a nice small city that is starting to become more
lively, and since you're 25 I figured you might want some social life.
Portland is also pretty accessible to the rest of the Northeast, you
can drive to Boston in about three hours, and NYC in about seven, or of
course fly it. It's far enough out though that the cost of living
hasn't gone insane yet.

OTOH, if I had six months to indulge my wanderlust, I might try to move
around a little, and I would definitely spend some time around the
Rocky Mountain states, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, or Montana. I don't
think you can really understand America unless you spend some time out
West.

Best,
-cwk.

[email protected]

May 23rd 05, 03:59 AM

Hi everyone. Thanks for the responses. Keep them coming if you can.
Tony, you asked some good questions.

I am in South Texas right on the border at Mexico in a town called
Brownsville. Might have to look that up on the map. Land here is flat
as far as the eye can see and usually windy around 15-20mph at this
time of the year.

At first, I originally said that I'd like to learn at a small airport
so I wouldn't have to worry about THINKING too much (radio, traffic,
etc) like I would at a busy airport. I wanted to focus on the basics,
get the feel of the plane and spend as much time as possible on that.
However, as some of you already pointed out, it may be best to just
jump into a busy airport and start getting accustomed to the radio
chatter, flight congestion, etc.

I've spent enough time in this corrupted dusty booming city and I need
to get out while I can (it's one of those cities that end up swallowing
you if you don't leave while you can. Too many boomerang kids here). I
once went on a Super cub flight with a friend and we had to land at a
small dirt strip in the middle of nowhere due to an engine problem. Bad
location! Landed right into the middle of a drug smuggling operation.
Luckily (or is it unlucky?), my pilot knew one of the guys and he
warned us to get out of there as soon as possible.

Another thing: I am kind of concerned about working with the radio
because I was born with hearing loss and I am afraid I may not be able
to communicate efficiently. I understand the TV and Radio, but whispers
are difficult (and I understand this is part of the medical?). I know
deaf pilots can fly, so at least I can do SOME flying. I'll have to
discuss this with the school, wherever I decide to fly.

Absolutely can't wait to learn! Thanks for all the feedback (and I will
keep lurking and responding when appropriate).

Morgans

May 23rd 05, 04:25 AM

> wrote

>
> Another thing: I am kind of concerned about working with the radio
> because I was born with hearing loss and I am afraid I may not be able
> to communicate efficiently.

I find I hear best of all with headsets on, with all of the extraneous noise
blocked out. It gives me the freedom to turn up my own volume as loud as I
want.

Active noise cancellation might well be a very good thing for you. Most
people's hearing loss is in the upper frequency range, so you have to be
able to use the rest (mid and low range) to hear the communications.
Blocking out all (read most) of those low frequency sounds will clean up
what you are needing (mid and low) to help you make the best of what you
have left.

Being born with hearing loss may have left you with a different kind of loss
than what I have described, so if that is the case, . . . .

"Never mind!" <g>

Montblack

May 23rd 05, 06:20 AM

wrote)
[snip]
> OTOH, if I had six months to indulge my wanderlust, I might try to move
> around a little, and I would definitely spend some time around the
> Rocky Mountain states, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, or Montana. I don't
> think you can really understand America unless you spend some time out
> West.

Reading this thread ...Midwest really is Fly-Over Land. Not one plug!

Tough to compete with warm winters and mountains - unless 10,000 (sometimes
frozen) lakes sound fun? Boundary Waters Canoe Area? Lake Superior? GREEN
fields? Plus all the Norwegians, Swedes, Germans, Danes, and Finns you can
shake a stick at?

http://www.airandspacemagazine.com/ASM/Mag/Latest.html
Our local airport (ANE) Anoka County-Blaine is on the cover - Class D though
....radio.

Montblack

private

May 24th 05, 10:43 AM

I think that John has hit the major points here and would also agree with
those who suggest taildraggers but personally would prefer a Citabria 7eca
as you can sit and solo from the front seat, they are honest and spin well
and can do simple loops and rolls. They will teach you to use your feet.
It may take you longer to solo but your total dual time should end up being
about the same as a trike.

To me cost would be a big factor and would suggest that you consider whether
the airport has landing fees which can add up quickly if doing circuits. At
busy airports you may spend significant amounts of time in the holding bay
or on long taxis (google hobbs vs tach time) and your circuits will tend to
be bigger which means fewer landings per hour. Bigger/busier airports may
mean that you must fly some distance to get to the practice area. The other
factor that can add up to a big difference is whether the school charges for
ground briefing time. Some schools have good book and video libraries for
student use. I would also want good internet access while training,
especially if you are doing the ground school by self study, and of course
you need to access r.a.s.

I would favor a small towered airport with a school like John suggests that
also does taildragger and acro. In the final analysis the quality of the
instructors is the most important and as each of us has unique learning
styles you may want to go on a road trip. Start in the cheap and cavu
foothills east of the west coast range and try several different places till
you find one that clicks for you. Consider the total sales taxes. Many
airports have camping or cheap accomodation available near by which can also
make a big difference in the total cost.

Never pay in advance.

Good luck and have fun.

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message .
>
> > Hi folks,
> > If you want to learn to fly .... .
> >
> > So, if I could focus all of my time and energy on flying lessons, where
> > would you go? .
>
> Conduct a search, as you are doing. Use other methods as well, although
at
> the moment I don't know quite what to suggest. The net will give you the
> broadest reach in the shortest time. The point is this: Find yourself a
> small airport in a rural or semi rural area, with a little flight school
> thats been around for years, with at least a couple of old coots who have
> been flying 45 years or so doing some teaching. Latch on to one of these
> guys - they've got more aviation in their blood than you'll ever find in a
> book.
>
> Get a place to live, and find some kind of simple job. You apparently
won't
> need the money, but you will need something to keep you occupied in your
> non-flying time. You shouldn't fly all the time - you need breaks to
allow
> the knowledge to settle in. Fly about 3 times a week, and hang around the
> field some of the other time, but not all the time. You'll learn a lot
> there, too.
>
> The school should have some sort of common area - a lounge, or a front
porch
> in nice weather - where the regulars hang around and talk flying, even
when
> they're not scheduled. Furniture should be some old overstuffed chairs
and
> an old sofa, cast off from someone's house, and there has to be a real
> coffeepot - not a machine. Check to see if at least some of the
instructors
> hang around and shoot the bull when they're finished, or if they pack up
and
> bolt right away. Its easy enough to find an "Aviation Academy" that's all
> stainless steel and glass, with a legion of anal 23 year-old instructors
who
> can recite the FARs and the POH verbatim and debate airspace arcana all
day.
> What you need to find is a flying school, where you can learn to be an
> aviator - no one can teach you, they just guide you in the right direction
> until it clicks. You have to pick it up yourself. Once you've got that,
> you can pick up all the rest either from a short stint at a production
> school, or by reading books.
>
> Don't cut yourself short on this. The difference is between absorbing it
or
> simply learning it, and the value inherent in the fomer won't be apparent
> for several years. Good luck.
>
>

Paul kgyy

May 24th 05, 02:50 PM

If your time is limited, make sure that you go somewhere that has more
than one aircraft and instructor available. However, compare prices.
I like flight schools because of the redundant equipment and flexible
scheduling, but they can be pretty expensive (though maybe cheap to you
now with the U.S. dollar in the tank).

If you are going to use your skills in Europe, I think that it would be
important to develop your radio skills, so learning in a towered
environment would be good. I did my PPL training at a Class C airport
and have never had "mike fright" as a result.

Weather in the U.S. varies hugely, so avoid the north and Great Lakes
area in the winter, and avoid the south in the summer, Florida during
hurricane season. California probably has uniformly the best weather,
but inland CA can be extremely hot in summer and foggy in winter, and
the coastal areas can have days of marine fog. New Mexico/Arizona have
superb fall weather. On the other hand, learning how to make weather
no/go decisions is also an important skill...