Knowledge????

[Bob Leve]

I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience.
Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!

[[email protected]]

On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 11:41:14 AM UTC-6, Bob Leve wrote:
> I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience.
> Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!

You are right and good to say this. It is plain as day that there is absolutely no basis for people to distrust their government.

[2G]

On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 9:41:14 AM UTC-8, Bob Leve wrote:
> I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience..
> Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!

You're right (that they are not MDs). However, we have leaders who also aren't MDs but believe and act like they are. So, let's hear from some real experts:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
This study ranks the effectiveness of virtually all COVID interventions by various governments. It is shocking that certain popular measures (closing restaurants and crisis management plans) might actually be doing more harm than good. And the wearing of masks is fundamentally ineffective as determined by 3 of 4 analysis methods. And our national expert, Tony Fauci, admits that he is "nudging" his herd immunity level based on public polls! Sorry, but this is a *******ization of science. And he is far from being the only one.

Tom

[Richard Livingston]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 1:19:31 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 9:41:14 AM UTC-8, Bob Leve wrote:
> > I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience.
> > Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!
> You're right (that they are not MDs). However, we have leaders who also aren't MDs but believe and act like they are. So, let's hear from some real experts:
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
> This study ranks the effectiveness of virtually all COVID interventions by various governments. It is shocking that certain popular measures (closing restaurants and crisis management plans) might actually be doing more harm than good. And the wearing of masks is fundamentally ineffective as determined by 3 of 4 analysis methods. And our national expert, Tony Fauci, admits that he is "nudging" his herd immunity level based on public polls! Sorry, but this is a *******ization of science. And he is far from being the only one.
>
> Tom

As I read it, that is NOT what that article says. Some extracts:

"The most effective NPIs include curfews, lockdowns and closing and restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers for an extended period of time. This includes small gathering cancellations (closures of shops, restaurants, gatherings of 50 persons or fewer, mandatory home working and so on) and closure of educational institutions. "

In other words, closing restaurants ("restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers") is among the more effective measures to take, NOT "fundamentally ineffective" as you state.

"Taken together, the social distancing and movement-restriction measures discussed above can therefore be seen as the ‘nuclear option’ of NPIs: highly effective but causing substantial collateral damages to society, the economy, trade and human rights4,39."

"We also find a number of highly effective NPIs that can be considered less costly. For instance, we find that risk-communication strategies feature prominently amongst consensus NPIs. This includes government actions intended to educate and actively communicate with the public. The effective messages include encouraging people to stay at home, promoting social distancing and workplace safety measures, encouraging the self-initiated isolation of people with symptoms, travel warnings and information campaigns (mostly via social media)."

There are also conclusions on ineffective measures:
"Some measures are ineffective in (almost) all methods and datasets—for example, environmental measures to disinfect and clean surfaces and objects in public and semi-public places. This finding is at odds with current recommendations of the WHO (World Health Organization) for environmental cleaning in non-healthcare settings46, and calls for a closer examination of the effectiveness of such measures."

"We also find no evidence for the effectiveness of social distancing measures in regard to public transport. While infections on buses and trains have been reported47, our results may suggest a limited contribution of such cases to the overall virus spread, as previously reported48. A heightened public risk awareness associated with commuting (for example, people being more likely to wear face masks) might contribute to this finding49."

They also found that timing was important. The earlier NPI measures were implemented the more impact on the virus:

"The effectiveness of individual NPIs is heavily influenced by governance (Supplementary Information) and local context, as evidenced by the results of the entropic approach. This local context includes the stage of the epidemic, socio-economic, cultural and political characteristics and other NPIs previously implemented. The fact that gross domestic product is overall positively correlated with NPI effectiveness whereas the governance indicator ‘voice and accountability’ is negatively correlated might be related to the successful mitigation of the initial phase of the epidemic of certain south-east Asian and Middle East countries showing authoritarian tendencies."

In otherwords, the administrations denial and delay in implementing effective measures has made the impact worse for the US.

And rather than focusing on a single measure, the authors conclude that a more comprehensive response is what is really effective:

"The emerging picture reveals that no one-size-fits-all solution exists, and no single NPI can decrease Rt below one. Instead, in the absence of a vaccine or efficient antiviral medication, a resurgence of COVID-19 cases can be stopped only by a suitable combination of NPIs, each tailored to the specific country and its epidemic age. These measures must be enacted in the optimal combination and sequence to be maximally effective against the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and thereby enable more rapid reopening."

You really ought to read and understand the article before citing it.

Rich L.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 12/28/2020 11:19 PM:
> On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 9:41:14 AM UTC-8, Bob Leve wrote:
>> I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience..
>> Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!
>
> You're right (that they are not MDs). However, we have leaders who also aren't MDs but believe and act like they are. So, let's hear from some real experts:
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
> This study ranks the effectiveness of virtually all COVID interventions by various governments. It is shocking that certain popular measures (closing restaurants and crisis management plans) might actually be doing more harm than good. And the wearing of masks is fundamentally ineffective as determined by 3 of 4 analysis methods. And our national expert, Tony Fauci, admits that he is "nudging" his herd immunity level based on public polls! Sorry, but this is a *******ization of science. And he is far from being the only one.
>
There was no "*******ization of science" in Dr. Fauci's public remarks early on, because he was
trying to educate laymen, not reporting to other scientists. He had to do so when there was no
vaccine or reliable measurements of the virus transmissibility, so the estimates of the
percentage of vaccinations needed for herd immunity spanned a wide range. He chose a number
towards the lower end of the guesses, because he thought it would serve the public interest
better, and told us we really didn't know for sure.

But I agree there were some that did distort the science in their announcements, but the big
majority of the public soon learned to choose Dr. Fauci, and those like him, over the
"downplayers".


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 11:15:30 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/28/2020 11:19 PM:
> > On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 9:41:14 AM UTC-8, Bob Leve wrote:
> >> I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience..
> >> Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!
> >
> > You're right (that they are not MDs). However, we have leaders who also aren't MDs but believe and act like they are. So, let's hear from some real experts:
> > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
> > This study ranks the effectiveness of virtually all COVID interventions by various governments. It is shocking that certain popular measures (closing restaurants and crisis management plans) might actually be doing more harm than good. And the wearing of masks is fundamentally ineffective as determined by 3 of 4 analysis methods. And our national expert, Tony Fauci, admits that he is "nudging" his herd immunity level based on public polls! Sorry, but this is a *******ization of science. And he is far from being the only one.
> >
> There was no "*******ization of science" in Dr. Fauci's public remarks early on, because he was
> trying to educate laymen, not reporting to other scientists. He had to do so when there was no
> vaccine or reliable measurements of the virus transmissibility, so the estimates of the
> percentage of vaccinations needed for herd immunity spanned a wide range. He chose a number
> towards the lower end of the guesses, because he thought it would serve the public interest
> better, and told us we really didn't know for sure.
>
> But I agree there were some that did distort the science in their announcements, but the big
> majority of the public soon learned to choose Dr. Fauci, and those like him, over the
> "downplayers".
>
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1


We must absolutely be talking about two completely different, but totally valid Anthony Faucis.

The one I saw on live television in February of this year stated "americans have nothing to worry about" when asked about the threat of Covid-19. He did that interview on Fox News. A week later he did another interview on USA Today where he added exactly one sentence as a qualifier and that was "those who travel" might face some risks.

February, 2020.
If that was not downplaying the risk, what is it exactly that you call it?

One month prior, January of 2020, Trump issued travel restrictions that applied to China.

Facts -

Seattle diagnosed the first three cases of Covid-19 in the United States. The doctors saw a common set of symptoms in two patients and developed a protocol. Why? because the CDC had none. The CDC didn't have one for another month and a half AFTER these patients were being treated. The doctors saw a common thread with two previous patients and retested blood samples only to find they had two more cases on their hands.

While I think it's great and it's grand that you have enormous trust in Fauci, I'm puzzled how it is you do not see him as a....what was that term? Oh yeah, a "Downplayer".

[2G]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 1:19:31 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 9:41:14 AM UTC-8, Bob Leve wrote:
> > > I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience.
> > > Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!
> > You're right (that they are not MDs). However, we have leaders who also aren't MDs but believe and act like they are. So, let's hear from some real experts:
> > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
> > This study ranks the effectiveness of virtually all COVID interventions by various governments. It is shocking that certain popular measures (closing restaurants and crisis management plans) might actually be doing more harm than good. And the wearing of masks is fundamentally ineffective as determined by 3 of 4 analysis methods. And our national expert, Tony Fauci, admits that he is "nudging" his herd immunity level based on public polls! Sorry, but this is a *******ization of science. And he is far from being the only one.
> >
> > Tom
> As I read it, that is NOT what that article says. Some extracts:
>
> "The most effective NPIs include curfews, lockdowns and closing and restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers for an extended period of time. This includes small gathering cancellations (closures of shops, restaurants, gatherings of 50 persons or fewer, mandatory home working and so on) and closure of educational institutions. "
>
> In other words, closing restaurants ("restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers") is among the more effective measures to take, NOT "fundamentally ineffective" as you state.
>
> "Taken together, the social distancing and movement-restriction measures discussed above can therefore be seen as the ‘nuclear option’ of NPIs: highly effective but causing substantial collateral damages to society, the economy, trade and human rights4,39."
>
> "We also find a number of highly effective NPIs that can be considered less costly. For instance, we find that risk-communication strategies feature prominently amongst consensus NPIs. This includes government actions intended to educate and actively communicate with the public. The effective messages include encouraging people to stay at home, promoting social distancing and workplace safety measures, encouraging the self-initiated isolation of people with symptoms, travel warnings and information campaigns (mostly via social media)."
>
> There are also conclusions on ineffective measures:
> "Some measures are ineffective in (almost) all methods and datasets—for example, environmental measures to disinfect and clean surfaces and objects in public and semi-public places. This finding is at odds with current recommendations of the WHO (World Health Organization) for environmental cleaning in non-healthcare settings46, and calls for a closer examination of the effectiveness of such measures."
>
> "We also find no evidence for the effectiveness of social distancing measures in regard to public transport. While infections on buses and trains have been reported47, our results may suggest a limited contribution of such cases to the overall virus spread, as previously reported48. A heightened public risk awareness associated with commuting (for example, people being more likely to wear face masks) might contribute to this finding49."
>
> They also found that timing was important. The earlier NPI measures were implemented the more impact on the virus:
>
> "The effectiveness of individual NPIs is heavily influenced by governance (Supplementary Information) and local context, as evidenced by the results of the entropic approach. This local context includes the stage of the epidemic, socio-economic, cultural and political characteristics and other NPIs previously implemented. The fact that gross domestic product is overall positively correlated with NPI effectiveness whereas the governance indicator ‘voice and accountability’ is negatively correlated might be related to the successful mitigation of the initial phase of the epidemic of certain south-east Asian and Middle East countries showing authoritarian tendencies."
>
> In otherwords, the administrations denial and delay in implementing effective measures has made the impact worse for the US.
>
> And rather than focusing on a single measure, the authors conclude that a more comprehensive response is what is really effective:
>
> "The emerging picture reveals that no one-size-fits-all solution exists, and no single NPI can decrease Rt below one. Instead, in the absence of a vaccine or efficient antiviral medication, a resurgence of COVID-19 cases can be stopped only by a suitable combination of NPIs, each tailored to the specific country and its epidemic age. These measures must be enacted in the optimal combination and sequence to be maximally effective against the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and thereby enable more rapid reopening."
>
> You really ought to read and understand the article before citing it.
>
> Rich L.

You looked in the wrong place - it is "Special measures for certain establishments," not "small gathering cancellations" which includes ALL small groups, not just restaurants. Contact tracing found that restaurants accounted for 1.4% of infections vs 70% in the home.

This study is important because it quantifies how effective the measures are that uninformed government bureaucrats and elected officials are cramming down our throats without representation. That said, it is likely that people will reach different conclusions and you are welcome to state yours minus the invectives.

Tom

[2G]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 9:15:30 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/28/2020 11:19 PM:
> > On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 9:41:14 AM UTC-8, Bob Leve wrote:
> >> I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience..
> >> Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!
> >
> > You're right (that they are not MDs). However, we have leaders who also aren't MDs but believe and act like they are. So, let's hear from some real experts:
> > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
> > This study ranks the effectiveness of virtually all COVID interventions by various governments. It is shocking that certain popular measures (closing restaurants and crisis management plans) might actually be doing more harm than good. And the wearing of masks is fundamentally ineffective as determined by 3 of 4 analysis methods. And our national expert, Tony Fauci, admits that he is "nudging" his herd immunity level based on public polls! Sorry, but this is a *******ization of science. And he is far from being the only one.
> >
> There was no "*******ization of science" in Dr. Fauci's public remarks early on, because he was
> trying to educate laymen, not reporting to other scientists. He had to do so when there was no
> vaccine or reliable measurements of the virus transmissibility, so the estimates of the
> percentage of vaccinations needed for herd immunity spanned a wide range. He chose a number
> towards the lower end of the guesses, because he thought it would serve the public interest
> better, and told us we really didn't know for sure.
>
> But I agree there were some that did distort the science in their announcements, but the big
> majority of the public soon learned to choose Dr. Fauci, and those like him, over the
> "downplayers".
>
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Eric,

Tony Fauci is on video saying he "nudged" the percentage of inoculation to reach herd immunity w/o ANY science reference to justify it. This implies his original threshold was merely a guess. This IS a *******ization of science since it lends a degree of precision to his comments w/o ANY scientific basis.

Tom

[John Sinclair[_5_]]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 2:16:10 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 1:19:31 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > > On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 9:41:14 AM UTC-8, Bob Leve wrote:
> > > > I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience.
> > > > Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!
> > > You're right (that they are not MDs). However, we have leaders who also aren't MDs but believe and act like they are. So, let's hear from some real experts:
> > > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
> > > This study ranks the effectiveness of virtually all COVID interventions by various governments. It is shocking that certain popular measures (closing restaurants and crisis management plans) might actually be doing more harm than good. And the wearing of masks is fundamentally ineffective as determined by 3 of 4 analysis methods. And our national expert, Tony Fauci, admits that he is "nudging" his herd immunity level based on public polls! Sorry, but this is a *******ization of science. And he is far from being the only one.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > As I read it, that is NOT what that article says. Some extracts:
> >
> > "The most effective NPIs include curfews, lockdowns and closing and restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers for an extended period of time. This includes small gathering cancellations (closures of shops, restaurants, gatherings of 50 persons or fewer, mandatory home working and so on) and closure of educational institutions. "
> >
> > In other words, closing restaurants ("restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers") is among the more effective measures to take, NOT "fundamentally ineffective" as you state.
> >
> > "Taken together, the social distancing and movement-restriction measures discussed above can therefore be seen as the ‘nuclear option’ of NPIs: highly effective but causing substantial collateral damages to society, the economy, trade and human rights4,39."
> >
> > "We also find a number of highly effective NPIs that can be considered less costly. For instance, we find that risk-communication strategies feature prominently amongst consensus NPIs. This includes government actions intended to educate and actively communicate with the public. The effective messages include encouraging people to stay at home, promoting social distancing and workplace safety measures, encouraging the self-initiated isolation of people with symptoms, travel warnings and information campaigns (mostly via social media)."
> >
> > There are also conclusions on ineffective measures:
> > "Some measures are ineffective in (almost) all methods and datasets—for example, environmental measures to disinfect and clean surfaces and objects in public and semi-public places. This finding is at odds with current recommendations of the WHO (World Health Organization) for environmental cleaning in non-healthcare settings46, and calls for a closer examination of the effectiveness of such measures."
> >
> > "We also find no evidence for the effectiveness of social distancing measures in regard to public transport. While infections on buses and trains have been reported47, our results may suggest a limited contribution of such cases to the overall virus spread, as previously reported48. A heightened public risk awareness associated with commuting (for example, people being more likely to wear face masks) might contribute to this finding49."
> >
> > They also found that timing was important. The earlier NPI measures were implemented the more impact on the virus:
> >
> > "The effectiveness of individual NPIs is heavily influenced by governance (Supplementary Information) and local context, as evidenced by the results of the entropic approach. This local context includes the stage of the epidemic, socio-economic, cultural and political characteristics and other NPIs previously implemented. The fact that gross domestic product is overall positively correlated with NPI effectiveness whereas the governance indicator ‘voice and accountability’ is negatively correlated might be related to the successful mitigation of the initial phase of the epidemic of certain south-east Asian and Middle East countries showing authoritarian tendencies."
> >
> > In otherwords, the administrations denial and delay in implementing effective measures has made the impact worse for the US.
> >
> > And rather than focusing on a single measure, the authors conclude that a more comprehensive response is what is really effective:
> >
> > "The emerging picture reveals that no one-size-fits-all solution exists, and no single NPI can decrease Rt below one. Instead, in the absence of a vaccine or efficient antiviral medication, a resurgence of COVID-19 cases can be stopped only by a suitable combination of NPIs, each tailored to the specific country and its epidemic age. These measures must be enacted in the optimal combination and sequence to be maximally effective against the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and thereby enable more rapid reopening."
> >
> > You really ought to read and understand the article before citing it.
> >
> > Rich L.
> You looked in the wrong place - it is "Special measures for certain establishments," not "small gathering cancellations" which includes ALL small groups, not just restaurants. Contact tracing found that restaurants accounted for 1.4% of infections vs 70% in the home.
>
> This study is important because it quantifies how effective the measures are that uninformed government bureaucrats and elected officials are cramming down our throats without representation. That said, it is likely that people will reach different conclusions and you are welcome to state yours minus the invectives.
>
> Tom

When I was a kid (80 years ago) the county health department would quarantine your house if somebody in there got the measles............yellow notice on the door and nobody went in or out!
Now days you can’t get half the nation to even put on a mask! Come on people, get with the program and help put this virus behind us!
JJ

[Hank Nixon]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 5:32:11 PM UTC-5, John Sinclair wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 2:16:10 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 1:19:31 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 9:41:14 AM UTC-8, Bob Leve wrote:
> > > > > I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience.
> > > > > Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!
> > > > You're right (that they are not MDs). However, we have leaders who also aren't MDs but believe and act like they are. So, let's hear from some real experts:
> > > > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
> > > > This study ranks the effectiveness of virtually all COVID interventions by various governments. It is shocking that certain popular measures (closing restaurants and crisis management plans) might actually be doing more harm than good. And the wearing of masks is fundamentally ineffective as determined by 3 of 4 analysis methods. And our national expert, Tony Fauci, admits that he is "nudging" his herd immunity level based on public polls! Sorry, but this is a *******ization of science. And he is far from being the only one.
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > > As I read it, that is NOT what that article says. Some extracts:
> > >
> > > "The most effective NPIs include curfews, lockdowns and closing and restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers for an extended period of time. This includes small gathering cancellations (closures of shops, restaurants, gatherings of 50 persons or fewer, mandatory home working and so on) and closure of educational institutions. "
> > >
> > > In other words, closing restaurants ("restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers") is among the more effective measures to take, NOT "fundamentally ineffective" as you state.
> > >
> > > "Taken together, the social distancing and movement-restriction measures discussed above can therefore be seen as the ‘nuclear option’ of NPIs: highly effective but causing substantial collateral damages to society, the economy, trade and human rights4,39."
> > >
> > > "We also find a number of highly effective NPIs that can be considered less costly. For instance, we find that risk-communication strategies feature prominently amongst consensus NPIs. This includes government actions intended to educate and actively communicate with the public. The effective messages include encouraging people to stay at home, promoting social distancing and workplace safety measures, encouraging the self-initiated isolation of people with symptoms, travel warnings and information campaigns (mostly via social media)."
> > >
> > > There are also conclusions on ineffective measures:
> > > "Some measures are ineffective in (almost) all methods and datasets—for example, environmental measures to disinfect and clean surfaces and objects in public and semi-public places. This finding is at odds with current recommendations of the WHO (World Health Organization) for environmental cleaning in non-healthcare settings46, and calls for a closer examination of the effectiveness of such measures."
> > >
> > > "We also find no evidence for the effectiveness of social distancing measures in regard to public transport. While infections on buses and trains have been reported47, our results may suggest a limited contribution of such cases to the overall virus spread, as previously reported48. A heightened public risk awareness associated with commuting (for example, people being more likely to wear face masks) might contribute to this finding49."
> > >
> > > They also found that timing was important. The earlier NPI measures were implemented the more impact on the virus:
> > >
> > > "The effectiveness of individual NPIs is heavily influenced by governance (Supplementary Information) and local context, as evidenced by the results of the entropic approach. This local context includes the stage of the epidemic, socio-economic, cultural and political characteristics and other NPIs previously implemented. The fact that gross domestic product is overall positively correlated with NPI effectiveness whereas the governance indicator ‘voice and accountability’ is negatively correlated might be related to the successful mitigation of the initial phase of the epidemic of certain south-east Asian and Middle East countries showing authoritarian tendencies."
> > >
> > > In otherwords, the administrations denial and delay in implementing effective measures has made the impact worse for the US.
> > >
> > > And rather than focusing on a single measure, the authors conclude that a more comprehensive response is what is really effective:
> > >
> > > "The emerging picture reveals that no one-size-fits-all solution exists, and no single NPI can decrease Rt below one. Instead, in the absence of a vaccine or efficient antiviral medication, a resurgence of COVID-19 cases can be stopped only by a suitable combination of NPIs, each tailored to the specific country and its epidemic age. These measures must be enacted in the optimal combination and sequence to be maximally effective against the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and thereby enable more rapid reopening."
> > >
> > > You really ought to read and understand the article before citing it.
> > >
> > > Rich L.
> > You looked in the wrong place - it is "Special measures for certain establishments," not "small gathering cancellations" which includes ALL small groups, not just restaurants. Contact tracing found that restaurants accounted for 1.4% of infections vs 70% in the home.
> >
> > This study is important because it quantifies how effective the measures are that uninformed government bureaucrats and elected officials are cramming down our throats without representation. That said, it is likely that people will reach different conclusions and you are welcome to state yours minus the invectives.
> >
> > Tom
> When I was a kid (80 years ago) the county health department would quarantine your house if somebody in there got the measles............yellow notice on the door and nobody went in or out!
> Now days you can’t get half the nation to even put on a mask! Come on people, get with the program and help put this virus behind us!
> JJ

+1
UH

[R[_4_]]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 7:03:16 PM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 5:32:11 PM UTC-5, John Sinclair wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 2:16:10 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 1:19:31 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 9:41:14 AM UTC-8, Bob Leve wrote:
> > > > > > I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience.
> > > > > > Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!
> > > > > You're right (that they are not MDs). However, we have leaders who also aren't MDs but believe and act like they are. So, let's hear from some real experts:
> > > > > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
> > > > > This study ranks the effectiveness of virtually all COVID interventions by various governments. It is shocking that certain popular measures (closing restaurants and crisis management plans) might actually be doing more harm than good. And the wearing of masks is fundamentally ineffective as determined by 3 of 4 analysis methods. And our national expert, Tony Fauci, admits that he is "nudging" his herd immunity level based on public polls! Sorry, but this is a *******ization of science. And he is far from being the only one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom
> > > > As I read it, that is NOT what that article says. Some extracts:
> > > >
> > > > "The most effective NPIs include curfews, lockdowns and closing and restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers for an extended period of time. This includes small gathering cancellations (closures of shops, restaurants, gatherings of 50 persons or fewer, mandatory home working and so on) and closure of educational institutions. "
> > > >
> > > > In other words, closing restaurants ("restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers") is among the more effective measures to take, NOT "fundamentally ineffective" as you state.
> > > >
> > > > "Taken together, the social distancing and movement-restriction measures discussed above can therefore be seen as the ‘nuclear option’ of NPIs: highly effective but causing substantial collateral damages to society, the economy, trade and human rights4,39."
> > > >
> > > > "We also find a number of highly effective NPIs that can be considered less costly. For instance, we find that risk-communication strategies feature prominently amongst consensus NPIs. This includes government actions intended to educate and actively communicate with the public. The effective messages include encouraging people to stay at home, promoting social distancing and workplace safety measures, encouraging the self-initiated isolation of people with symptoms, travel warnings and information campaigns (mostly via social media)."
> > > >
> > > > There are also conclusions on ineffective measures:
> > > > "Some measures are ineffective in (almost) all methods and datasets—for example, environmental measures to disinfect and clean surfaces and objects in public and semi-public places. This finding is at odds with current recommendations of the WHO (World Health Organization) for environmental cleaning in non-healthcare settings46, and calls for a closer examination of the effectiveness of such measures."
> > > >
> > > > "We also find no evidence for the effectiveness of social distancing measures in regard to public transport. While infections on buses and trains have been reported47, our results may suggest a limited contribution of such cases to the overall virus spread, as previously reported48. A heightened public risk awareness associated with commuting (for example, people being more likely to wear face masks) might contribute to this finding49."
> > > >
> > > > They also found that timing was important. The earlier NPI measures were implemented the more impact on the virus:
> > > >
> > > > "The effectiveness of individual NPIs is heavily influenced by governance (Supplementary Information) and local context, as evidenced by the results of the entropic approach. This local context includes the stage of the epidemic, socio-economic, cultural and political characteristics and other NPIs previously implemented. The fact that gross domestic product is overall positively correlated with NPI effectiveness whereas the governance indicator ‘voice and accountability’ is negatively correlated might be related to the successful mitigation of the initial phase of the epidemic of certain south-east Asian and Middle East countries showing authoritarian tendencies."
> > > >
> > > > In otherwords, the administrations denial and delay in implementing effective measures has made the impact worse for the US.
> > > >
> > > > And rather than focusing on a single measure, the authors conclude that a more comprehensive response is what is really effective:
> > > >
> > > > "The emerging picture reveals that no one-size-fits-all solution exists, and no single NPI can decrease Rt below one. Instead, in the absence of a vaccine or efficient antiviral medication, a resurgence of COVID-19 cases can be stopped only by a suitable combination of NPIs, each tailored to the specific country and its epidemic age. These measures must be enacted in the optimal combination and sequence to be maximally effective against the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and thereby enable more rapid reopening."
> > > >
> > > > You really ought to read and understand the article before citing it.
> > > >
> > > > Rich L.
> > > You looked in the wrong place - it is "Special measures for certain establishments," not "small gathering cancellations" which includes ALL small groups, not just restaurants. Contact tracing found that restaurants accounted for 1.4% of infections vs 70% in the home.
> > >
> > > This study is important because it quantifies how effective the measures are that uninformed government bureaucrats and elected officials are cramming down our throats without representation. That said, it is likely that people will reach different conclusions and you are welcome to state yours minus the invectives.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > When I was a kid (80 years ago) the county health department would quarantine your house if somebody in there got the measles............yellow notice on the door and nobody went in or out!
> > Now days you can’t get half the nation to even put on a mask! Come on people, get with the program and help put this virus behind us!
> > JJ
> +1
> UH

[Guy Acheson[_2_]]

The politics of Covid is astounding.

For those of you who question the effectiveness of masks...oh my

I am a dentist. We have been wearing masks 100% of the time in our offices from the beginning.
We require all patients/delivery persons/anyone who enters our office to be wearing a mask that covers BOTH their mouth and nose.
No...we do not allow mouth shields or face shields in place of a mask. They are not the same thing at all.

From January 2020 through September 2020, less than 1% of all people who work in a dental office have tested positive for Covid.
A dental office is probably the most dangerous place you could be with regards to an airborne infectious particle.
Our handpieces blow air in the mouth which ejects the oral contents into the surrounding air in a mist.
Our instuments to clean teeth (ultrasonic scalers) create the finest of mists.
Yet, less than 1% have tested positive. Remember, all these people spend most of their time outside of the dental office so it speaks well of their behaviour outside of the office also.

I took a walk today in my town's park. Here in California we are having the most significant of all Covid surges. My local hospitals have ICUs that are 100+% full.
The dog park had more people than I have seen in many months. AND...there were less masks inside that dog park than inside my car.

That is why we are having this problem.

Now, let us talk about soaring.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Guy Acheson wrote on 12/29/2020 6:30 PM:
> The politics of Covid is astounding.
>
> For those of you who question the effectiveness of masks...oh my
>
> I am a dentist. We have been wearing masks 100% of the time in our offices from the beginning.
> We require all patients/delivery persons/anyone who enters our office to be wearing a mask that covers BOTH their mouth and nose.
> No...we do not allow mouth shields or face shields in place of a mask. They are not the same thing at all.
>
> From January 2020 through September 2020, less than 1% of all people who work in a dental office have tested positive for Covid.
> A dental office is probably the most dangerous place you could be with regards to an airborne infectious particle.
> Our handpieces blow air in the mouth which ejects the oral contents into the surrounding air in a mist.
> Our instuments to clean teeth (ultrasonic scalers) create the finest of mists.
> Yet, less than 1% have tested positive. Remember, all these people spend most of their time outside of the dental office so it speaks well of their behaviour outside of the office also.
>
> I took a walk today in my town's park. Here in California we are having the most significant of all Covid surges. My local hospitals have ICUs that are 100+% full.
> The dog park had more people than I have seen in many months. AND...there were less masks inside that dog park than inside my car.
>
> That is why we are having this problem.
>
> Now, let us talk about soaring.
>
Thank you, Guy.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 6:30:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
> The politics of Covid is astounding.
>
> For those of you who question the effectiveness of masks...oh my
>
> I am a dentist. We have been wearing masks 100% of the time in our offices from the beginning.
> We require all patients/delivery persons/anyone who enters our office to be wearing a mask that covers BOTH their mouth and nose.
> No...we do not allow mouth shields or face shields in place of a mask. They are not the same thing at all.
>
> From January 2020 through September 2020, less than 1% of all people who work in a dental office have tested positive for Covid.
> A dental office is probably the most dangerous place you could be with regards to an airborne infectious particle.
> Our handpieces blow air in the mouth which ejects the oral contents into the surrounding air in a mist.
> Our instuments to clean teeth (ultrasonic scalers) create the finest of mists.
> Yet, less than 1% have tested positive. Remember, all these people spend most of their time outside of the dental office so it speaks well of their behaviour outside of the office also.
>
> I took a walk today in my town's park. Here in California we are having the most significant of all Covid surges. My local hospitals have ICUs that are 100+% full.
> The dog park had more people than I have seen in many months. AND...there were less masks inside that dog park than inside my car.
>
> That is why we are having this problem.
>
> Now, let us talk about soaring.

The gold-standard mask, the N-95 (which you can't get), properly worn and fitted, filters particles down to 135 nm; coronavirus particles are 70-90 nm.. Let's go more extreme, the Stryker Flyte Helmet (https://www.stryker.com/us/en/orthopaedic-instruments/products/flyte-personal-protection-system.html) used in high-risk areas for its filtered air supply; this helmet IS INEFFECTIVE in protecting wearers from COVID (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00264-020-04796-3):

"Sterile surgical helmet systems (SSHS) do not protect against aerosol particulate and therefore are not efficacious in protection against COVID-19. The fan system employed may even increase risk to the surgeon by drawing in particulates as well as delay recognition of intraoperative cues, such as exhaust from diathermy, that point to respirator mask leak."

Now, tell me again how effective those cheap, throw-away masks are.

Tom

[Paul B[_2_]]

On Wednesday, 30 December 2020 at 8:32:11 am UTC+10, John Sinclair wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 2:16:10 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 1:19:31 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 9:41:14 AM UTC-8, Bob Leve wrote:
> > > > > I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience.
> > > > > Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!
> > > > You're right (that they are not MDs). However, we have leaders who also aren't MDs but believe and act like they are. So, let's hear from some real experts:
> > > > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
> > > > This study ranks the effectiveness of virtually all COVID interventions by various governments. It is shocking that certain popular measures (closing restaurants and crisis management plans) might actually be doing more harm than good. And the wearing of masks is fundamentally ineffective as determined by 3 of 4 analysis methods. And our national expert, Tony Fauci, admits that he is "nudging" his herd immunity level based on public polls! Sorry, but this is a *******ization of science. And he is far from being the only one.
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > > As I read it, that is NOT what that article says. Some extracts:
> > >
> > > "The most effective NPIs include curfews, lockdowns and closing and restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers for an extended period of time. This includes small gathering cancellations (closures of shops, restaurants, gatherings of 50 persons or fewer, mandatory home working and so on) and closure of educational institutions. "
> > >
> > > In other words, closing restaurants ("restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers") is among the more effective measures to take, NOT "fundamentally ineffective" as you state.
> > >
> > > "Taken together, the social distancing and movement-restriction measures discussed above can therefore be seen as the ‘nuclear option’ of NPIs: highly effective but causing substantial collateral damages to society, the economy, trade and human rights4,39."
> > >
> > > "We also find a number of highly effective NPIs that can be considered less costly. For instance, we find that risk-communication strategies feature prominently amongst consensus NPIs. This includes government actions intended to educate and actively communicate with the public. The effective messages include encouraging people to stay at home, promoting social distancing and workplace safety measures, encouraging the self-initiated isolation of people with symptoms, travel warnings and information campaigns (mostly via social media)."
> > >
> > > There are also conclusions on ineffective measures:
> > > "Some measures are ineffective in (almost) all methods and datasets—for example, environmental measures to disinfect and clean surfaces and objects in public and semi-public places. This finding is at odds with current recommendations of the WHO (World Health Organization) for environmental cleaning in non-healthcare settings46, and calls for a closer examination of the effectiveness of such measures."
> > >
> > > "We also find no evidence for the effectiveness of social distancing measures in regard to public transport. While infections on buses and trains have been reported47, our results may suggest a limited contribution of such cases to the overall virus spread, as previously reported48. A heightened public risk awareness associated with commuting (for example, people being more likely to wear face masks) might contribute to this finding49."
> > >
> > > They also found that timing was important. The earlier NPI measures were implemented the more impact on the virus:
> > >
> > > "The effectiveness of individual NPIs is heavily influenced by governance (Supplementary Information) and local context, as evidenced by the results of the entropic approach. This local context includes the stage of the epidemic, socio-economic, cultural and political characteristics and other NPIs previously implemented. The fact that gross domestic product is overall positively correlated with NPI effectiveness whereas the governance indicator ‘voice and accountability’ is negatively correlated might be related to the successful mitigation of the initial phase of the epidemic of certain south-east Asian and Middle East countries showing authoritarian tendencies."
> > >
> > > In otherwords, the administrations denial and delay in implementing effective measures has made the impact worse for the US.
> > >
> > > And rather than focusing on a single measure, the authors conclude that a more comprehensive response is what is really effective:
> > >
> > > "The emerging picture reveals that no one-size-fits-all solution exists, and no single NPI can decrease Rt below one. Instead, in the absence of a vaccine or efficient antiviral medication, a resurgence of COVID-19 cases can be stopped only by a suitable combination of NPIs, each tailored to the specific country and its epidemic age. These measures must be enacted in the optimal combination and sequence to be maximally effective against the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and thereby enable more rapid reopening."
> > >
> > > You really ought to read and understand the article before citing it.
> > >
> > > Rich L.
> > You looked in the wrong place - it is "Special measures for certain establishments," not "small gathering cancellations" which includes ALL small groups, not just restaurants. Contact tracing found that restaurants accounted for 1.4% of infections vs 70% in the home.
> >
> > This study is important because it quantifies how effective the measures are that uninformed government bureaucrats and elected officials are cramming down our throats without representation. That said, it is likely that people will reach different conclusions and you are welcome to state yours minus the invectives.
> >
> > Tom
> When I was a kid (80 years ago) the county health department would quarantine your house if somebody in there got the measles............yellow notice on the door and nobody went in or out!
> Now days you can’t get half the nation to even put on a mask! Come on people, get with the program and help put this virus behind us!
> JJ
Yes John, those were the days, they quarantined the sick.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 00:03:08 -0800, Paul B wrote:

> On Wednesday, 30 December 2020 at 8:32:11 am UTC+10, John Sinclair
> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 2:16:10 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-8,
>> > wrote:
>> > > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 1:19:31 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
>> > > > On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 9:41:14 AM UTC-8, Bob Leve wrote:
>> > > > > I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering
>> > > > > this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem
>> > > > > to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease
>> > > > > MD or actual governmental experience.
>> > > > > Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information
>> > > > > about the wonderful sport of soaring!
>> > > > You're right (that they are not MDs). However, we have leaders
>> > > > who also aren't MDs but believe and act like they are. So, let's
>> > > > hear from some real experts:
>> > > > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0 This study
>> > > > ranks the effectiveness of virtually all COVID interventions by
>> > > > various governments. It is shocking that certain popular measures
>> > > > (closing restaurants and crisis management plans) might actually
>> > > > be doing more harm than good. And the wearing of masks is
>> > > > fundamentally ineffective as determined by 3 of 4 analysis
>> > > > methods. And our national expert, Tony Fauci, admits that he is
>> > > > "nudging" his herd immunity level based on public polls! Sorry,
>> > > > but this is a *******ization of science. And he is far from being
>> > > > the only one.
>> > > >
>> > > > Tom
>> > > As I read it, that is NOT what that article says. Some extracts:
>> > >
>> > > "The most effective NPIs include curfews, lockdowns and closing and
>> > > restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers
>> > > for an extended period of time. This includes small gathering
>> > > cancellations (closures of shops, restaurants, gatherings of 50
>> > > persons or fewer, mandatory home working and so on) and closure of
>> > > educational institutions. "
>> > >
>> > > In other words, closing restaurants ("restricting places where
>> > > people gather in smaller or large numbers") is among the more
>> > > effective measures to take, NOT "fundamentally ineffective" as you
>> > > state.
>> > >
>> > > "Taken together, the social distancing and movement-restriction
>> > > measures discussed above can therefore be seen as the ‘nuclear
>> > > option’ of NPIs: highly effective but causing substantial
>> > > collateral damages to society, the economy, trade and human
>> > > rights4,39."
>> > >
>> > > "We also find a number of highly effective NPIs that can be
>> > > considered less costly. For instance, we find that
>> > > risk-communication strategies feature prominently amongst consensus
>> > > NPIs. This includes government actions intended to educate and
>> > > actively communicate with the public. The effective messages
>> > > include encouraging people to stay at home, promoting social
>> > > distancing and workplace safety measures, encouraging the
>> > > self-initiated isolation of people with symptoms, travel warnings
>> > > and information campaigns (mostly via social media)."
>> > >
>> > > There are also conclusions on ineffective measures:
>> > > "Some measures are ineffective in (almost) all methods and
>> > > datasets—for example, environmental measures to disinfect and clean
>> > > surfaces and objects in public and semi-public places. This finding
>> > > is at odds with current recommendations of the WHO (World Health
>> > > Organization) for environmental cleaning in non-healthcare
>> > > settings46, and calls for a closer examination of the effectiveness
>> > > of such measures."
>> > >
>> > > "We also find no evidence for the effectiveness of social
>> > > distancing measures in regard to public transport. While infections
>> > > on buses and trains have been reported47, our results may suggest a
>> > > limited contribution of such cases to the overall virus spread, as
>> > > previously reported48. A heightened public risk awareness
>> > > associated with commuting (for example, people being more likely to
>> > > wear face masks) might contribute to this finding49."
>> > >
>> > > They also found that timing was important. The earlier NPI measures
>> > > were implemented the more impact on the virus:
>> > >
>> > > "The effectiveness of individual NPIs is heavily influenced by
>> > > governance (Supplementary Information) and local context, as
>> > > evidenced by the results of the entropic approach. This local
>> > > context includes the stage of the epidemic, socio-economic,
>> > > cultural and political characteristics and other NPIs previously
>> > > implemented. The fact that gross domestic product is overall
>> > > positively correlated with NPI effectiveness whereas the governance
>> > > indicator ‘voice and accountability’ is negatively correlated might
>> > > be related to the successful mitigation of the initial phase of the
>> > > epidemic of certain south-east Asian and Middle East countries
>> > > showing authoritarian tendencies."
>> > >
>> > > In otherwords, the administrations denial and delay in implementing
>> > > effective measures has made the impact worse for the US.
>> > >
>> > > And rather than focusing on a single measure, the authors conclude
>> > > that a more comprehensive response is what is really effective:
>> > >
>> > > "The emerging picture reveals that no one-size-fits-all solution
>> > > exists, and no single NPI can decrease Rt below one. Instead, in
>> > > the absence of a vaccine or efficient antiviral medication, a
>> > > resurgence of COVID-19 cases can be stopped only by a suitable
>> > > combination of NPIs, each tailored to the specific country and its
>> > > epidemic age. These measures must be enacted in the optimal
>> > > combination and sequence to be maximally effective against the
>> > > spread of SARS-CoV-2 and thereby enable more rapid reopening."
>> > >
>> > > You really ought to read and understand the article before citing
>> > > it.
>> > >
>> > > Rich L.
>> > You looked in the wrong place - it is "Special measures for certain
>> > establishments," not "small gathering cancellations" which includes
>> > ALL small groups, not just restaurants. Contact tracing found that
>> > restaurants accounted for 1.4% of infections vs 70% in the home.
>> >
>> > This study is important because it quantifies how effective the
>> > measures are that uninformed government bureaucrats and elected
>> > officials are cramming down our throats without representation. That
>> > said, it is likely that people will reach different conclusions and
>> > you are welcome to state yours minus the invectives.
>> >
>> > Tom
>> When I was a kid (80 years ago) the county health department would
>> quarantine your house if somebody in there got the
>> measles............yellow notice on the door and nobody went in or out!
>> Now days you can’t get half the nation to even put on a mask! Come on
>> people, get with the program and help put this virus behind us!
>> JJ
> Yes John, those were the days, they quarantined the sick.

70 or more years ago *almost everybody* got mumps, measles and (often)
scarlet fever. Obviously, since there were no vaccines. If you were male,
you wanted to get mumps before puberty because getting it later was very
nasty and could make you sterile - anmd its not good for women either.

Now we have vaccines against all of these and the MMR shot deals with the
first two (both varieties of measles), so people are forgetting how nasty
these were. Given that mumps can have such bad after effects, and measles
isn't pleasant either, it makes you wonder whether antivaxers have any
idea of the risks they're exposing their kids to.

Disclaimer: I have no medical training, but was a kid when measles, mumps
and scarlet fever were common, so of course everybody knew about them,
their symptoms and after-effects.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Michael Fadden]

If there were only a place more suited to this discussion....

Oh, wait. https://boards.straightdope.com/c/the-quarantine-zone/29

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Paul B wrote on 12/30/2020 12:03 AM:
> On Wednesday, 30 December 2020 at 8:32:11 am UTC+10, John Sinclair wrote:
>> When I was a kid (80 years ago) the county health department would quarantine your house if somebody in there got the measles............yellow notice on the door and nobody went in or out!
>> Now days you can’t get half the nation to even put on a mask! Come on people, get with the program and help put this virus behind us!
>> JJ
> Yes John, those were the days, they quarantined the sick.
>
Please allow me to be pedantic: even back then, the sick were isolated, and the exposed people
that had no symptoms were quarantined, just as they are today.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 12/29/2020 11:34 PM:
> On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 6:30:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
>> The politics of Covid is astounding.
>>
>> For those of you who question the effectiveness of masks...oh my
>>
>> I am a dentist. We have been wearing masks 100% of the time in our offices from the beginning.
>> We require all patients/delivery persons/anyone who enters our office to be wearing a mask that covers BOTH their mouth and nose.
>> No...we do not allow mouth shields or face shields in place of a mask. They are not the same thing at all.
>>
>> From January 2020 through September 2020, less than 1% of all people who work in a dental office have tested positive for Covid.
>> A dental office is probably the most dangerous place you could be with regards to an airborne infectious particle.
>> Our handpieces blow air in the mouth which ejects the oral contents into the surrounding air in a mist.
>> Our instuments to clean teeth (ultrasonic scalers) create the finest of mists.
>> Yet, less than 1% have tested positive. Remember, all these people spend most of their time outside of the dental office so it speaks well of their behaviour outside of the office also.
>>
>> I took a walk today in my town's park. Here in California we are having the most significant of all Covid surges. My local hospitals have ICUs that are 100+% full.
>> The dog park had more people than I have seen in many months. AND...there were less masks inside that dog park than inside my car.
>>
>> That is why we are having this problem.
>>
>> Now, let us talk about soaring.
>
> The gold-standard mask, the N-95 (which you can't get), properly worn and fitted, filters particles down to 135 nm; coronavirus particles are 70-90 nm.. Let's go more extreme, the Stryker Flyte Helmet (https://www.stryker.com/us/en/orthopaedic-instruments/products/flyte-personal-protection-system.html) used in high-risk areas for its filtered air supply; this helmet IS INEFFECTIVE in protecting wearers from COVID (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00264-020-04796-3):
>
> "Sterile surgical helmet systems (SSHS) do not protect against aerosol particulate and therefore are not efficacious in protection against COVID-19. The fan system employed may even increase risk to the surgeon by drawing in particulates as well as delay recognition of intraoperative cues, such as exhaust from diathermy, that point to respirator mask leak."
>
> Now, tell me again how effective those cheap, throw-away masks are.
>
> Tom

Wearing effective masks, like N-95, might allow instruction to begin sooner than later, if both
instructor and student wore them. N-95 masks are generally still in short supply, but that may
change in the next few months, about the time our (northern hemisphere) flying season begins.
Some KN-95 masks, which are readily available now, might also be suitable, but the suitability
specific KN-95 masks is harder to determine; hopefully, that will change.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[danlj]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 9:30:07 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> As I read it, that is NOT what that article says. Some extracts:
> And rather than focusing on a single measure, the authors conclude that a more comprehensive response is what is really effective:
>
> "The emerging picture reveals that no one-size-fits-all solution exists, and no single NPI can decrease Rt below one. Instead, in the absence of a vaccine or efficient antiviral medication, a resurgence of COVID-19 cases can be stopped only by a suitable combination of NPIs, each tailored to the specific country and its epidemic age. These measures must be enacted in the optimal combination and sequence to be maximally effective against the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and thereby enable more rapid reopening."
>
> You really ought to read and understand the article before citing it.
>
> Rich L.

Thank you, Rich, for posting this extract.
The virus knows no politics. Everyone, including scientists, were ignorant of its biology, best anti-infective measures, and best treatment a year ago.. Facts, through research, have been steadily accumulating. Sadly, opinions are often strongly held, even by "authorities", that are dissonant with fact. The discipline of practicing clinical medicine is that one quickly learns that using opinion instead of fact to treat patients is a disaster for the patient, which makes us cautious. Most people are not faced continually with this potentially catastrophic error-checking by nature, so opinions float free.
DrDan Johnson

[John Galloway[_2_]]

On Wednesday, 30 December 2020 at 15:18:26 UTC, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/29/2020 11:34 PM:
> > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 6:30:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
> >> The politics of Covid is astounding.
> >>
> >> For those of you who question the effectiveness of masks...oh my
> >>
> >> I am a dentist. We have been wearing masks 100% of the time in our offices from the beginning.
> >> We require all patients/delivery persons/anyone who enters our office to be wearing a mask that covers BOTH their mouth and nose.
> >> No...we do not allow mouth shields or face shields in place of a mask. They are not the same thing at all.
> >>
> >> From January 2020 through September 2020, less than 1% of all people who work in a dental office have tested positive for Covid.
> >> A dental office is probably the most dangerous place you could be with regards to an airborne infectious particle.
> >> Our handpieces blow air in the mouth which ejects the oral contents into the surrounding air in a mist.
> >> Our instuments to clean teeth (ultrasonic scalers) create the finest of mists.
> >> Yet, less than 1% have tested positive. Remember, all these people spend most of their time outside of the dental office so it speaks well of their behaviour outside of the office also.
> >>
> >> I took a walk today in my town's park. Here in California we are having the most significant of all Covid surges. My local hospitals have ICUs that are 100+% full.
> >> The dog park had more people than I have seen in many months. AND...there were less masks inside that dog park than inside my car.
> >>
> >> That is why we are having this problem.
> >>
> >> Now, let us talk about soaring.
> >
> > The gold-standard mask, the N-95 (which you can't get), properly worn and fitted, filters particles down to 135 nm; coronavirus particles are 70-90 nm.. Let's go more extreme, the Stryker Flyte Helmet (https://www.stryker..com/us/en/orthopaedic-instruments/products/flyte-personal-protection-system.html) used in high-risk areas for its filtered air supply; this helmet IS INEFFECTIVE in protecting wearers from COVID (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00264-020-04796-3):
> >
> > "Sterile surgical helmet systems (SSHS) do not protect against aerosol particulate and therefore are not efficacious in protection against COVID-19. The fan system employed may even increase risk to the surgeon by drawing in particulates as well as delay recognition of intraoperative cues, such as exhaust from diathermy, that point to respirator mask leak."
> >
> > Now, tell me again how effective those cheap, throw-away masks are.
> >
> > Tom
> Wearing effective masks, like N-95, might allow instruction to begin sooner than later, if both
> instructor and student wore them. N-95 masks are generally still in short supply, but that may
> change in the next few months, about the time our (northern hemisphere) flying season begins.
> Some KN-95 masks, which are readily available now, might also be suitable, but the suitability
> specific KN-95 masks is harder to determine; hopefully, that will change.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Do not use N95 or KN95 masks with expiratory valves. They are protective for the user but project out a jet of potentially viral loaded aerosol or droplet spray. That might be acceptable e.g. for medics treating already infected patients but not for community protection.

2G commented on the particle filtration parameter of N95 being slightly larger than the viral diameter. That is irrelevant - we don't expire individual dry viral particles. The object is to filter out the viral loaded aerosol or droplet particles. Aerosol droplets have around 30-50 times larger diameter than the virus - and droplets much larger than that. A well fitted cloth mask is a lot better than no mask for the same reason.

Kudos to Guy Acheson who clearly has the knowledge as well as skin (literally) in the game.

The value of the use of measures such as masks was understood a century ago during the 1918 influenza epidemic and there were the same issues of variable regulations and recommendations within and between countries - and the same variable compliance. Many articles attest to this. Try:

https://theconversation.com/face-masks-what-the-spanish-flu-can-teach-us-about-making-them-compulsory-137648

Next time round I hope that the lessons are learned: early and widespread adoption of even less than perfect measures e.g. masks, social distancing, hand washing, adequate fresh air ventilation (not just air-con), testing, tracking, tracing and quarantining, would make a huge difference. That's the other side of the exponential spread coin. Most of these are things that all individuals can enact themselves.

[2G]

On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 9:35:40 AM UTC-8, danlj wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 9:30:07 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > As I read it, that is NOT what that article says. Some extracts:
> > And rather than focusing on a single measure, the authors conclude that a more comprehensive response is what is really effective:
> >
> > "The emerging picture reveals that no one-size-fits-all solution exists, and no single NPI can decrease Rt below one. Instead, in the absence of a vaccine or efficient antiviral medication, a resurgence of COVID-19 cases can be stopped only by a suitable combination of NPIs, each tailored to the specific country and its epidemic age. These measures must be enacted in the optimal combination and sequence to be maximally effective against the spread of SARS-CoV-2 and thereby enable more rapid reopening."
> >
> > You really ought to read and understand the article before citing it.
> >
> > Rich L.
> Thank you, Rich, for posting this extract.
> The virus knows no politics. Everyone, including scientists, were ignorant of its biology, best anti-infective measures, and best treatment a year ago. Facts, through research, have been steadily accumulating. Sadly, opinions are often strongly held, even by "authorities", that are dissonant with fact. The discipline of practicing clinical medicine is that one quickly learns that using opinion instead of fact to treat patients is a disaster for the patient, which makes us cautious. Most people are not faced continually with this potentially catastrophic error-checking by nature, so opinions float free.
> DrDan Johnson

Dan, you might consider commenting about the actual data which showed that wearing PPE had little to no effectiveness. BTW, you are also welcome.

Tom

[2G]

On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 7:18:26 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/29/2020 11:34 PM:
> > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 6:30:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
> >> The politics of Covid is astounding.
> >>
> >> For those of you who question the effectiveness of masks...oh my
> >>
> >> I am a dentist. We have been wearing masks 100% of the time in our offices from the beginning.
> >> We require all patients/delivery persons/anyone who enters our office to be wearing a mask that covers BOTH their mouth and nose.
> >> No...we do not allow mouth shields or face shields in place of a mask. They are not the same thing at all.
> >>
> >> From January 2020 through September 2020, less than 1% of all people who work in a dental office have tested positive for Covid.
> >> A dental office is probably the most dangerous place you could be with regards to an airborne infectious particle.
> >> Our handpieces blow air in the mouth which ejects the oral contents into the surrounding air in a mist.
> >> Our instuments to clean teeth (ultrasonic scalers) create the finest of mists.
> >> Yet, less than 1% have tested positive. Remember, all these people spend most of their time outside of the dental office so it speaks well of their behaviour outside of the office also.
> >>
> >> I took a walk today in my town's park. Here in California we are having the most significant of all Covid surges. My local hospitals have ICUs that are 100+% full.
> >> The dog park had more people than I have seen in many months. AND...there were less masks inside that dog park than inside my car.
> >>
> >> That is why we are having this problem.
> >>
> >> Now, let us talk about soaring.
> >
> > The gold-standard mask, the N-95 (which you can't get), properly worn and fitted, filters particles down to 135 nm; coronavirus particles are 70-90 nm.. Let's go more extreme, the Stryker Flyte Helmet (https://www.stryker..com/us/en/orthopaedic-instruments/products/flyte-personal-protection-system.html) used in high-risk areas for its filtered air supply; this helmet IS INEFFECTIVE in protecting wearers from COVID (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00264-020-04796-3):
> >
> > "Sterile surgical helmet systems (SSHS) do not protect against aerosol particulate and therefore are not efficacious in protection against COVID-19. The fan system employed may even increase risk to the surgeon by drawing in particulates as well as delay recognition of intraoperative cues, such as exhaust from diathermy, that point to respirator mask leak."
> >
> > Now, tell me again how effective those cheap, throw-away masks are.
> >
> > Tom
> Wearing effective masks, like N-95, might allow instruction to begin sooner than later, if both
> instructor and student wore them. N-95 masks are generally still in short supply, but that may
> change in the next few months, about the time our (northern hemisphere) flying season begins.
> Some KN-95 masks, which are readily available now, might also be suitable, but the suitability
> specific KN-95 masks is harder to determine; hopefully, that will change.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Schools aren't opening because the teacher's unions are opposed to it regardless of PPE. I played golf one day recently with the husband of a teacher (and his wife) who flat-out said he didn't give a damn about the kids - he was only concerned about his wife's safety. Hopefully, the spouses of our doctors and nurses don't feel the same way.

Tom

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 2:27:52 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 7:18:26 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > 2G wrote on 12/29/2020 11:34 PM:
> > > On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 6:30:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
> > >> The politics of Covid is astounding.
> > >>
> > >> For those of you who question the effectiveness of masks...oh my
> > >>
> > >> I am a dentist. We have been wearing masks 100% of the time in our offices from the beginning.
> > >> We require all patients/delivery persons/anyone who enters our office to be wearing a mask that covers BOTH their mouth and nose.
> > >> No...we do not allow mouth shields or face shields in place of a mask. They are not the same thing at all.
> > >>
> > >> From January 2020 through September 2020, less than 1% of all people who work in a dental office have tested positive for Covid.
> > >> A dental office is probably the most dangerous place you could be with regards to an airborne infectious particle.
> > >> Our handpieces blow air in the mouth which ejects the oral contents into the surrounding air in a mist.
> > >> Our instuments to clean teeth (ultrasonic scalers) create the finest of mists.
> > >> Yet, less than 1% have tested positive. Remember, all these people spend most of their time outside of the dental office so it speaks well of their behaviour outside of the office also.
> > >>
> > >> I took a walk today in my town's park. Here in California we are having the most significant of all Covid surges. My local hospitals have ICUs that are 100+% full.
> > >> The dog park had more people than I have seen in many months. AND...there were less masks inside that dog park than inside my car.
> > >>
> > >> That is why we are having this problem.
> > >>
> > >> Now, let us talk about soaring.
> > >
> > > The gold-standard mask, the N-95 (which you can't get), properly worn and fitted, filters particles down to 135 nm; coronavirus particles are 70-90 nm.. Let's go more extreme, the Stryker Flyte Helmet (https://www.stryker.com/us/en/orthopaedic-instruments/products/flyte-personal-protection-system.html) used in high-risk areas for its filtered air supply; this helmet IS INEFFECTIVE in protecting wearers from COVID (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00264-020-04796-3):
> > >
> > > "Sterile surgical helmet systems (SSHS) do not protect against aerosol particulate and therefore are not efficacious in protection against COVID-19. The fan system employed may even increase risk to the surgeon by drawing in particulates as well as delay recognition of intraoperative cues, such as exhaust from diathermy, that point to respirator mask leak."
> > >
> > > Now, tell me again how effective those cheap, throw-away masks are.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > Wearing effective masks, like N-95, might allow instruction to begin sooner than later, if both
> > instructor and student wore them. N-95 masks are generally still in short supply, but that may
> > change in the next few months, about the time our (northern hemisphere) flying season begins.
> > Some KN-95 masks, which are readily available now, might also be suitable, but the suitability
> > specific KN-95 masks is harder to determine; hopefully, that will change.
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> Schools aren't opening because the teacher's unions are opposed to it regardless of PPE. I played golf one day recently with the husband of a teacher (and his wife) who flat-out said he didn't give a damn about the kids - he was only concerned about his wife's safety. Hopefully, the spouses of our doctors and nurses don't feel the same way.
>
> Tom

I remember as a young kid in my early years of education that the Cuban missile crisis required each of us to get under the desk in a crowded position and practice the event of a nuclear attack. The alarm would sound and the teacher would make sure that all the kids were tucked properly under the desk thinking that they would survive a nuclear attack. Well, the nuclear attack has been replaced by the COVID virus courtesy of the Chinese gov. Just yesterday the regime punished the journalist that exposed the virus, maybe he should get the Nobel prize. So protecting yourself and others is not as uncomfortable as crouching under the desk, so protect yourself and others. Bob

[George Haeh]

"Taiwan just went 200 days without a locally transmitted Covid-19 case. Here's how they did it:"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/29/asia/taiwan-covid-19-intl-hnk/index.html

Masks and partitions did most of the job.

Oh yes, individuals with suspect or confirmed infection were put up in hotels, fed, visited daily and given a stipend.

Everybody gets a weekly mask ration at low cost.

Meanwhile back at the headless chicken ranch...

[Rolf Hertenstein]

Oh well. Nice try.............

RFH

On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 10:41:14 AM UTC-7, Bob Leve wrote:
> I'm amazed at the number of seeming experts who are littering this site with passionately uninformed opinions yet don't seem to have the credentials or expertise of an infectious disease MD or actual governmental experience.
> Lets get back to what this site is about: Sharing information about the wonderful sport of soaring!

[Gregg Ballou[_2_]]

If you believe in covaids and go recreational flying are you an immoral person?

[Bob Caldwell (BC)]

On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 6:10:09 PM UTC-7, Gregg Ballou wrote:
> If you believe in covaids and go recreational flying are you an immoral person?
The biggest tragedy is the influence of politics to science. If not for the political differences we wouldn't be having this discussion. Science should be science not something influenced by our ignorant (soon to be not) president.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 11:34:03 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 6:30:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
> > The politics of Covid is astounding.
> >
> > For those of you who question the effectiveness of masks...oh my
> >
> > I am a dentist. We have been wearing masks 100% of the time in our offices from the beginning.
> > We require all patients/delivery persons/anyone who enters our office to be wearing a mask that covers BOTH their mouth and nose.
> > No...we do not allow mouth shields or face shields in place of a mask. They are not the same thing at all.
> >
> > From January 2020 through September 2020, less than 1% of all people who work in a dental office have tested positive for Covid.
> > A dental office is probably the most dangerous place you could be with regards to an airborne infectious particle.
> > Our handpieces blow air in the mouth which ejects the oral contents into the surrounding air in a mist.
> > Our instuments to clean teeth (ultrasonic scalers) create the finest of mists.
> > Yet, less than 1% have tested positive. Remember, all these people spend most of their time outside of the dental office so it speaks well of their behaviour outside of the office also.
> >
> > I took a walk today in my town's park. Here in California we are having the most significant of all Covid surges. My local hospitals have ICUs that are 100+% full.
> > The dog park had more people than I have seen in many months. AND...there were less masks inside that dog park than inside my car.
> >
> > That is why we are having this problem.
> >
> > Now, let us talk about soaring.
> The gold-standard mask, the N-95 (which you can't get), properly worn and fitted, filters particles down to 135 nm; coronavirus particles are 70-90 nm. Let's go more extreme, the Stryker Flyte Helmet (https://www.stryker.com/us/en/orthopaedic-instruments/products/flyte-personal-protection-system.html) used in high-risk areas for its filtered air supply; this helmet IS INEFFECTIVE in protecting wearers from COVID (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00264-020-04796-3):
>
> "Sterile surgical helmet systems (SSHS) do not protect against aerosol particulate and therefore are not efficacious in protection against COVID-19. The fan system employed may even increase risk to the surgeon by drawing in particulates as well as delay recognition of intraoperative cues, such as exhaust from diathermy, that point to respirator mask leak."
>
> Now, tell me again how effective those cheap, throw-away masks are.
>
> Tom
Two questions Tom. If you are with other people and you cough or sneeze do you cover your mouth? If so, why?

[[email protected]]

"The biggest tragedy is the influence of politics to science. If not for the political differences we wouldn't be having this discussion. Science should be science not something influenced by our ignorant (soon to be not) president. "

Yeah, Joe Biden is so brilliant.

I can understand why you admire him.

[R[_4_]]

On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 8:48:39 PM UTC-5, Bob Caldwell (BC) wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 6:10:09 PM UTC-7, Gregg Ballou wrote:
> > If you believe in covaids and go recreational flying are you an immoral person?
> The biggest tragedy is the influence of politics to science. If not for the political differences we wouldn't be having this discussion. Science should be science not something influenced by our ignorant (soon to be not) president.

Remember bright boy that Science created the mutating-enhance Covid and that your choices on how to deal with it in your life circle was overall left to you. Masks will never stop Covid, only delay. If you want to follow the California plan, fine....hide in your hole. When you surface, Covid III awaits you.
Control is a crap shoot and the President was simply keeping the food chain working to feed your sorry ass.
A Colorado Idiot no doubt.
R

[JP[_5_]]

On 12/31/20 4:19 AM, R wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 8:48:39 PM UTC-5, Bob Caldwell (BC) wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 6:10:09 PM UTC-7, Gregg Ballou wrote:
>>> If you believe in covaids and go recreational flying are you an immoral person?
>> The biggest tragedy is the influence of politics to science. If not for the political differences we wouldn't be having this discussion. Science should be science not something influenced by our ignorant (soon to be not) president.
>
> Remember bright boy that Science created the mutating-enhance Covid and that your choices on how to deal with it in your life circle was overall left to you. Masks will never stop Covid, only delay. If you want to follow the California plan, fine....hide in your hole. When you surface, Covid III awaits you.
> Control is a crap shoot and the President was simply keeping the food chain working to feed your sorry ass.
> A Colorado Idiot no doubt.
> R
>
Well, this makes no sense at all and I'm not even a "Colorado Idiot".
Wait. What?

[jfitch]

Getting back to soaring, there is more than enough hot air on this one thread to generate a damn good thermal.

On Thursday, December 31, 2020 at 9:20:07 AM UTC-8, jp wrote:
> On 12/31/20 4:19 AM, R wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 8:48:39 PM UTC-5, Bob Caldwell (BC) wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 6:10:09 PM UTC-7, Gregg Ballou wrote:
> >>> If you believe in covaids and go recreational flying are you an immoral person?
> >> The biggest tragedy is the influence of politics to science. If not for the political differences we wouldn't be having this discussion. Science should be science not something influenced by our ignorant (soon to be not) president.
> >
> > Remember bright boy that Science created the mutating-enhance Covid and that your choices on how to deal with it in your life circle was overall left to you. Masks will never stop Covid, only delay. If you want to follow the California plan, fine....hide in your hole. When you surface, Covid III awaits you.
> > Control is a crap shoot and the President was simply keeping the food chain working to feed your sorry ass.
> > A Colorado Idiot no doubt.
> > R
> >
> Well, this makes no sense at all and I'm not even a "Colorado Idiot".
> Wait. What?