GOAT ASW20

[[email protected]]

Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps, yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did result in deadly accidents.
There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy wing as we called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up from most any speed.. Later models were changed to a lesser flap configuration and much stiffer wings.
In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3, which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
How would you rate the GOAT? Bob

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 1/1/2021 4:49 AM:
> Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps, yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did result in deadly accidents.
> There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy wing as we called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up from most any speed.. Later models were changed to a lesser flap configuration and much stiffer wings.
> In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3, which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
> By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
> Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
> How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
>
I owned an ASW20C for 11 years. It had the same floppy wings as the original ASW20 (it was the
B models that had the stiffer wings and could carry more ballast) but with blowhole
turbulators, and 40 deg flaps instead of the original 60 deg flaps. The flaps were still very
powerful, and the Cleveland disc brake on the B and C models was a spectacular improvement over
the original drum brake, making it a worthwhile tradeoff for the smaller landing flap deflection.

I liked it so much, I ordered an ASH26E self-launcher before it had flown, just based on how
good the ASW20C was.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Dan Marotta]

On 1/1/21 7:14 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> wrote on 1/1/2021 4:49 AM:
>> Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have
>> lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I
>> call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around
>> 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning
>> the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful
>> flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually
>> out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full
>> landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps,
>> yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did
>> result in deadly accidents.
>> There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know
>> as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy
>> wing as we called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up
>> from most any speed.. Later models were changed to a lesser flap
>> configuration and much stiffer wings.
>> In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3,
>> which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This
>> was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
>> By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units
>> and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
>> Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the
>> ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the
>> test of time, very gracefully I might add.
>> How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
>>
> I owned an ASW20C for 11 years. It had the same floppy wings as the
> original ASW20 (it was the B models that had the stiffer wings and could
> carry more ballast) but with blowhole turbulators, and 40 deg flaps
> instead of the original 60 deg flaps. The flaps were still very
> powerful, and the Cleveland disc brake on the B and C models was a
> spectacular improvement over the original drum brake, making it a
> worthwhile tradeoff for the smaller landing flap deflection.
>
> I liked it so much, I ordered an ASH26E self-launcher before it had
> flown, just based on how good the ASW20C was.
>

I only flew a -20 one time. Swapped with 5Z. I liked my LS-6a better,
he liked his -20 better. Go figure...

--
Dan
5J

[[email protected]]

On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 7:11:59 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 1/1/21 7:14 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > wrote on 1/1/2021 4:49 AM:
> >> Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have
> >> lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I
> >> call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around
> >> 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning
> >> the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful
> >> flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually
> >> out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full
> >> landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps,
> >> yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did
> >> result in deadly accidents.
> >> There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know
> >> as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy
> >> wing as we called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up
> >> from most any speed.. Later models were changed to a lesser flap
> >> configuration and much stiffer wings.
> >> In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3,
> >> which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This
> >> was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
> >> By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units
> >> and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
> >> Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the
> >> ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the
> >> test of time, very gracefully I might add.
> >> How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
> >>
> > I owned an ASW20C for 11 years. It had the same floppy wings as the
> > original ASW20 (it was the B models that had the stiffer wings and could
> > carry more ballast) but with blowhole turbulators, and 40 deg flaps
> > instead of the original 60 deg flaps. The flaps were still very
> > powerful, and the Cleveland disc brake on the B and C models was a
> > spectacular improvement over the original drum brake, making it a
> > worthwhile tradeoff for the smaller landing flap deflection.
> >
> > I liked it so much, I ordered an ASH26E self-launcher before it had
> > flown, just based on how good the ASW20C was.
> >
> I only flew a -20 one time. Swapped with 5Z. I liked my LS-6a better,
> he liked his -20 better. Go figure...
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J

I own an early ASW20. I absolutely love it! But am considering upgrading for competition. Possibly an ASW27 or other Scleicher model.

[JulietUniform]

If anyone has an ASW20 “C� model with a clamshell trailer they want to sell, please contact me.
I might be interested, as Bob Barker used to say, “if the price is right!�.
John U.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 10:11:59 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 1/1/21 7:14 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > wrote on 1/1/2021 4:49 AM:
> >> Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have
> >> lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I
> >> call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around
> >> 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning
> >> the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful
> >> flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually
> >> out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full
> >> landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps,
> >> yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did
> >> result in deadly accidents.
> >> There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know
> >> as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy
> >> wing as we called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up
> >> from most any speed.. Later models were changed to a lesser flap
> >> configuration and much stiffer wings.
> >> In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3,
> >> which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This
> >> was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
> >> By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units
> >> and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
> >> Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the
> >> ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the
> >> test of time, very gracefully I might add.
> >> How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
> >>
> > I owned an ASW20C for 11 years. It had the same floppy wings as the
> > original ASW20 (it was the B models that had the stiffer wings and could
> > carry more ballast) but with blowhole turbulators, and 40 deg flaps
> > instead of the original 60 deg flaps. The flaps were still very
> > powerful, and the Cleveland disc brake on the B and C models was a
> > spectacular improvement over the original drum brake, making it a
> > worthwhile tradeoff for the smaller landing flap deflection.
> >
> > I liked it so much, I ordered an ASH26E self-launcher before it had
> > flown, just based on how good the ASW20C was.
> >
> I only flew a -20 one time. Swapped with 5Z. I liked my LS-6a better,
> he liked his -20 better. Go figure...
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J
Dan, if you had flown the 20 twice you would have traded the LS-6 for a 20. Oh, I did help Paul with the LAC yesterday all went well. Bob

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 7:49:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps, yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did result in deadly accidents.
> There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy wing as we called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up from most any speed. Later models were changed to a lesser flap configuration and much stiffer wings.
> In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3, which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
> By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
> Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
> How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
I am VERY biased to AS sailplanes having flown -20, -20c, -21, -24, -27, -28, -29.....they just "fly right" like US aluminum from Elmira....
I have flown some euro glass 2-seaters (older models) that were harder to fly. Not bad, just different.
I know someone that comped a HP until a handle full of years ago, went to a 20-B, now has a -27. He is happy.
Yes, a decent pilot can do well in a -20, ridge in east or strong west may need a -20B for wing loading.
Just my $0.02...

[George Haeh]

Have to say I've got a soft spot in my heart for the LS-4. It's a lovely flyer and thermaller with near idiot (glider pilot) proof landing gear handle that makes it really difficult to pull spoilers when the gear is up.

But I really like landing flap and enjoyed my ASW-20C until I moved to my ASW-27 which is even nicer and much easier for an older guy to rig and derig.

And it's a blast motoring in full negative flap.

[Dan Marotta]

On 1/1/21 2:05 PM, wrote:
> Oh, I did help Paul with the LAC yesterday all went well. Bob

Great, thanks!

And no... The -6 is just a sweeter flying bird. Crappy heel brakes,
but goes like stink. I wonder how manyn -20s flew at Reiti, Italy. My
-6 won the world championship that year with DJ at the helm.

--
Dan
5J

[5Z]

On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 5:49:51 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in
> 1983 with 375 produced units.
> Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time
> and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
> How would you rate the GOAT? Bob

Don't forget that the ASG-29 is really a ASW-27-18. So it's catching up to the ASW-20 numbers.

Given a choice, I'd take the '27 over a '20. But if I had a nice '20, it would be hard to justify paying to upgrade to the '27. I went from a ASW-20b, to a ASH-26E, and now own a ASW-27b. All wonderful ships.

5Z

[[email protected]]

On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 8:32:16 PM UTC-5, 5Z wrote:
> On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 5:49:51 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in
> > 1983 with 375 produced units.
> > Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time
> > and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
> > How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
> Don't forget that the ASG-29 is really a ASW-27-18. So it's catching up to the ASW-20 numbers.
>
> Given a choice, I'd take the '27 over a '20. But if I had a nice '20, it would be hard to justify paying to upgrade to the '27. I went from a ASW-20b, to a ASH-26E, and now own a ASW-27b. All wonderful ships.
>
> 5Z

If you combine production of the 27 and the 29 the production number is less than half of the ASW20's produced. I had a new 20 back in the late 70's wish I had it back, and the old girl is still flying. Today I have a 27B, very nice ship , I am looking for a 29 pure glider, just have a hard time saying motorglider. Just taking a look at the tale of time the 20 gracefully sit atop the podium.

[Hank Nixon]

On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 7:49:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps, yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did result in deadly accidents.
> There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy wing as we consider called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up from most any speed. Later models were changed to a lesser flap configuration and much stiffer wings.
> In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3, which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
> By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
> Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
> How would you rate the GOAT? Bob

I had two 20's, starting with an early one and then a 20C.
The 20 leaves little to be desired in terms of performance. handling, and ease of use. It also had some very good safety features including
a real wheel brake, energy absorbing gear, and a strong cockpit design. Safety was enhanced in the next generation by the cockpit structure of the '24 that won Waibel may awards and led the industry.
Others I would consider for GOAT:
Ka6 series. Wonderful flying characteristics and very good performance for the time.
SH Discus. Modern glass with excellent handing and performance. A glider that is both suitable for first single seater and good enough to be a glider for a lifetime.
Happy New Year to all
UH

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 1/2/2021 5:06 AM:
> On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 8:32:16 PM UTC-5, 5Z wrote:
>> On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 5:49:51 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>>> By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in
>>> 1983 with 375 produced units.
>>> Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time
>>> and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
>>> How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
>> Don't forget that the ASG-29 is really a ASW-27-18. So it's catching up to the ASW-20 numbers.
>>
>> Given a choice, I'd take the '27 over a '20. But if I had a nice '20, it would be hard to justify paying to upgrade to the '27. I went from a ASW-20b, to a ASH-26E, and now own a ASW-27b. All wonderful ships.
>>
>> 5Z
>
> If you combine production of the 27 and the 29 the production number is less than half of the ASW20's produced. I had a new 20 back in the late 70's wish I had it back, and the old girl is still flying. Today I have a 27B, very nice ship , I am looking for a 29 pure glider, just have a hard time saying motorglider. Just taking a look at the tale of time the 20 gracefully sit atop the podium.
>
If you loved the 20, and now have the closest thing to it in the ASW27B, why are you looking
for a 29? The ASH26E and the ASW27 came out at the same time in 1994, and I bought a 26E
because the 27 was never going to have a motor.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Tango Eight]

The best gliders are the ones you wear like an old leather jacket.

T8

[Nicholas Kennedy]

Looking at the Worldwide OLC this morning the highest score is a ASw 20 in Australia.
Not bad for a 40 + yr old ship.
I owned serial Number 13 for several years.
Nick
T

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, January 2, 2021 at 8:50:15 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 7:49:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps, yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did result in deadly accidents.
> > There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy wing as we consider called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up from most any speed. Later models were changed to a lesser flap configuration and much stiffer wings.
> > In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3, which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
> > By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
> > Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
> > How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
> I had two 20's, starting with an early one and then a 20C.
> The 20 leaves little to be desired in terms of performance. handling, and ease of use. It also had some very good safety features including
> a real wheel brake, energy absorbing gear, and a strong cockpit design. Safety was enhanced in the next generation by the cockpit structure of the '24 that won Waibel may awards and led the industry.
> Others I would consider for GOAT:
> Ka6 series. Wonderful flying characteristics and very good performance for the time.
> SH Discus. Modern glass with excellent handing and performance. A glider that is both suitable for first single seater and good enough to be a glider for a lifetime.
> Happy New Year to all
> UH

I also own an ASW24, although my wife flies it most of the time, I concur, it is an excellent flying sailplane and very underrated. Eileen has also owned the Ka6 and recently sold it to a club member, it was an excellent pre glass glider. I have a photo in my scrapbook in a high G pull from a high speed pass in my old 20, and the wing flex is impressive.
Someone asked why I would like to have a 29, only because of the 18 meter wing. If I had my old 20 back I would send it to Europe have it completely redone in urethane and make a few guys scratch their heads.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, January 2, 2021 at 3:32:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Saturday, January 2, 2021 at 8:50:15 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 7:49:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps, yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did result in deadly accidents.
> > > There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy wing as we consider called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up from most any speed. Later models were changed to a lesser flap configuration and much stiffer wings.
> > > In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3, which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
> > > By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
> > > Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
> > > How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
> > I had two 20's, starting with an early one and then a 20C.
> > The 20 leaves little to be desired in terms of performance. handling, and ease of use. It also had some very good safety features including
> > a real wheel brake, energy absorbing gear, and a strong cockpit design. Safety was enhanced in the next generation by the cockpit structure of the '24 that won Waibel may awards and led the industry.
> > Others I would consider for GOAT:
> > Ka6 series. Wonderful flying characteristics and very good performance for the time.
> > SH Discus. Modern glass with excellent handing and performance. A glider that is both suitable for first single seater and good enough to be a glider for a lifetime.
> > Happy New Year to all
> > UH
> I also own an ASW24, although my wife flies it most of the time, I concur, it is an excellent flying sailplane and very underrated. Eileen has also owned the Ka6 and recently sold it to a club member, it was an excellent pre glass glider. I have a photo in my scrapbook in a high G pull from a high speed pass in my old 20, and the wing flex is impressive.
> Someone asked why I would like to have a 29, only because of the 18 meter wing. If I had my old 20 back I would send it to Europe have it completely redone in urethane and make a few guys scratch their heads.
Also the 20 was more highly produced than the Ventus, almost by 1/3. The 20 flew much better and the ride was much better.

[Me]

On Saturday, January 2, 2021 at 2:22:12 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Saturday, January 2, 2021 at 3:32:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 2, 2021 at 8:50:15 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 7:49:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > > Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps, yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did result in deadly accidents.
> > > > There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy wing as we consider called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up from most any speed. Later models were changed to a lesser flap configuration and much stiffer wings.
> > > > In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3, which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
> > > > By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
> > > > Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
> > > > How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
> > > I had two 20's, starting with an early one and then a 20C.
> > > The 20 leaves little to be desired in terms of performance. handling, and ease of use. It also had some very good safety features including
> > > a real wheel brake, energy absorbing gear, and a strong cockpit design. Safety was enhanced in the next generation by the cockpit structure of the '24 that won Waibel may awards and led the industry.
> > > Others I would consider for GOAT:
> > > Ka6 series. Wonderful flying characteristics and very good performance for the time.
> > > SH Discus. Modern glass with excellent handing and performance. A glider that is both suitable for first single seater and good enough to be a glider for a lifetime.
> > > Happy New Year to all
> > > UH
> > I also own an ASW24, although my wife flies it most of the time, I concur, it is an excellent flying sailplane and very underrated. Eileen has also owned the Ka6 and recently sold it to a club member, it was an excellent pre glass glider. I have a photo in my scrapbook in a high G pull from a high speed pass in my old 20, and the wing flex is impressive.
> > Someone asked why I would like to have a 29, only because of the 18 meter wing. If I had my old 20 back I would send it to Europe have it completely redone in urethane and make a few guys scratch their heads.
> Also the 20 was more highly produced than the Ventus, almost by 1/3. The 20 flew much better and the ride was much better.
but you can buy a Ventus B for 2/3rds the price, maybe less, and it goes faster :) ;), has automatic hookups and wing tanks not bags.

[Dave Springford]

Conspicuously missing from this thread, up until that last post is the Ventus. I think if you look at WGC statistics you will see that the Ventus has more wins than the 20.

I had a 20 in the 90's, nice ship, great flaps and a joy to fly. I then moved to an LS6b, it was nicer to fly than the 20 and closer to ASW-27 performance than was the 20. The LS was better coordinated with a higher roll rate than the 20. It did take me some time to learn the feel of the LS6's stiff carbon wing after years of flying the floppy 20 wings.

So , while I might not call the 20 "the greatest", it certainly was one of the great gliders of its day and has provided thousands of hours of enjoyment to pilots world-wide.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 11:54:31 AM UTC-5, Dave Springford wrote:
> Conspicuously missing from this thread, up until that last post is the Ventus. I think if you look at WGC statistics you will see that the Ventus has more wins than the 20.
>
> I had a 20 in the 90's, nice ship, great flaps and a joy to fly. I then moved to an LS6b, it was nicer to fly than the 20 and closer to ASW-27 performance than was the 20. The LS was better coordinated with a higher roll rate than the 20. It did take me some time to learn the feel of the LS6's stiff carbon wing after years of flying the floppy 20 wings.
>
> So , while I might not call the 20 "the greatest", it certainly was one of the great gliders of its day and has provided thousands of hours of enjoyment to pilots world-wide.

Dave, I flew my 20 for over a thousand hours, E9 and I both had 20"s along with E8 and EA, every day was a joy to fly the 20, mine was the original floppy wing 20L. Both E9 and EA could not keep up with that ole floppy monster. Bennie Flowers bought a new Ventus and still could not keep up with the 20. I never had a problem with the roll rate of the 20, it rolled just fine.. The Ventus that Bennie had almost killed him , myself and a guy named Gary. That dang glider would automatically deploy the spoilers when near VNE, it happened to me and to Bennie as well.
Not taking away from the Ventus performance, but the difference in wins was the pilot, if those guys had been flying in the 20 the results would have probably been different. I still say it is the GOAT!
Come down to Vero this spring, I promise a great time. Bob

[MQ]

On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 11:54:31 AM UTC-5, Dave Springford wrote:
> > Conspicuously missing from this thread, up until that last post is the Ventus. I think if you look at WGC statistics you will see that the Ventus has more wins than the 20.
> >
> > I had a 20 in the 90's, nice ship, great flaps and a joy to fly. I then moved to an LS6b, it was nicer to fly than the 20 and closer to ASW-27 performance than was the 20. The LS was better coordinated with a higher roll rate than the 20. It did take me some time to learn the feel of the LS6's stiff carbon wing after years of flying the floppy 20 wings.
> >
> > So , while I might not call the 20 "the greatest", it certainly was one of the great gliders of its day and has provided thousands of hours of enjoyment to pilots world-wide.
> Dave, I flew my 20 for over a thousand hours, E9 and I both had 20"s along with E8 and EA, every day was a joy to fly the 20, mine was the original floppy wing 20L. Both E9 and EA could not keep up with that ole floppy monster. Bennie Flowers bought a new Ventus and still could not keep up with the 20. I never had a problem with the roll rate of the 20, it rolled just fine. The Ventus that Bennie had almost killed him , myself and a guy named Gary. That dang glider would automatically deploy the spoilers when near VNE, it happened to me and to Bennie as well.
> Not taking away from the Ventus performance, but the difference in wins was the pilot, if those guys had been flying in the 20 the results would have probably been different. I still say it is the GOAT!
> Come down to Vero this spring, I promise a great time. Bob
I think 20's are great but, with my back, I would not trade the seating position, warm feet and comfort of my DG300 for a 20. I also preferred the DG300 responsiveness. The canopy gave me plenty of room to give a nice wave as the 20, 27 and 29s go by though and the trash talking was justifiably immense when it was me rarely going by.
DG300 - 511 produced from 1983 to 2006 for comparison.

Geoff
MQ->5C

[[email protected]]

On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 2:45:39 PM UTC-5, MQ wrote:
> On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 11:54:31 AM UTC-5, Dave Springford wrote:
> > > Conspicuously missing from this thread, up until that last post is the Ventus. I think if you look at WGC statistics you will see that the Ventus has more wins than the 20.
> > >
> > > I had a 20 in the 90's, nice ship, great flaps and a joy to fly. I then moved to an LS6b, it was nicer to fly than the 20 and closer to ASW-27 performance than was the 20. The LS was better coordinated with a higher roll rate than the 20. It did take me some time to learn the feel of the LS6's stiff carbon wing after years of flying the floppy 20 wings.
> > >
> > > So , while I might not call the 20 "the greatest", it certainly was one of the great gliders of its day and has provided thousands of hours of enjoyment to pilots world-wide.
> > Dave, I flew my 20 for over a thousand hours, E9 and I both had 20"s along with E8 and EA, every day was a joy to fly the 20, mine was the original floppy wing 20L. Both E9 and EA could not keep up with that ole floppy monster. Bennie Flowers bought a new Ventus and still could not keep up with the 20. I never had a problem with the roll rate of the 20, it rolled just fine. The Ventus that Bennie had almost killed him , myself and a guy named Gary. That dang glider would automatically deploy the spoilers when near VNE, it happened to me and to Bennie as well.
> > Not taking away from the Ventus performance, but the difference in wins was the pilot, if those guys had been flying in the 20 the results would have probably been different. I still say it is the GOAT!
> > Come down to Vero this spring, I promise a great time. Bob
> I think 20's are great but, with my back, I would not trade the seating position, warm feet and comfort of my DG300 for a 20. I also preferred the DG300 responsiveness. The canopy gave me plenty of room to give a nice wave as the 20, 27 and 29s go by though and the trash talking was justifiably immense when it was me rarely going by.
> DG300 - 511 produced from 1983 to 2006 for comparison.
>
> Geoff
> MQ->5C

Geoff, the DG 300 is a nice sailplane, just not on the same level as the 20.. I never flew a nicer ride than my old 20L, I look at the DG and compare it to kissing my sister, I could do better or I could do worse!

[kinsell]

On 1/8/21 3:42 PM, wrote:
> On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 2:45:39 PM UTC-5, MQ wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>>> On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 11:54:31 AM UTC-5, Dave Springford wrote:
>>>> Conspicuously missing from this thread, up until that last post is the Ventus. I think if you look at WGC statistics you will see that the Ventus has more wins than the 20.
>>>>
>>>> I had a 20 in the 90's, nice ship, great flaps and a joy to fly. I then moved to an LS6b, it was nicer to fly than the 20 and closer to ASW-27 performance than was the 20. The LS was better coordinated with a higher roll rate than the 20. It did take me some time to learn the feel of the LS6's stiff carbon wing after years of flying the floppy 20 wings.
>>>>
>>>> So , while I might not call the 20 "the greatest", it certainly was one of the great gliders of its day and has provided thousands of hours of enjoyment to pilots world-wide.
>>> Dave, I flew my 20 for over a thousand hours, E9 and I both had 20"s along with E8 and EA, every day was a joy to fly the 20, mine was the original floppy wing 20L. Both E9 and EA could not keep up with that ole floppy monster. Bennie Flowers bought a new Ventus and still could not keep up with the 20. I never had a problem with the roll rate of the 20, it rolled just fine. The Ventus that Bennie had almost killed him , myself and a guy named Gary. That dang glider would automatically deploy the spoilers when near VNE, it happened to me and to Bennie as well.
>>> Not taking away from the Ventus performance, but the difference in wins was the pilot, if those guys had been flying in the 20 the results would have probably been different. I still say it is the GOAT!
>>> Come down to Vero this spring, I promise a great time. Bob
>> I think 20's are great but, with my back, I would not trade the seating position, warm feet and comfort of my DG300 for a 20. I also preferred the DG300 responsiveness. The canopy gave me plenty of room to give a nice wave as the 20, 27 and 29s go by though and the trash talking was justifiably immense when it was me rarely going by.
>> DG300 - 511 produced from 1983 to 2006 for comparison.
>>
>> Geoff
>> MQ->5C
>
> Geoff, the DG 300 is a nice sailplane, just not on the same level as the 20. I never flew a nicer ride than my old 20L, I look at the DG and compare it to kissing my sister, I could do better or I could do worse!
>

Seems like back in the day, the '20 had a reputation for spinning in a
lot. Maybe Darwinism helped weed out the pilots with inadequate spin
training?

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 5:48:42 PM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
> On 1/8/21 3:42 PM, wrote:
> > On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 2:45:39 PM UTC-5, MQ wrote:
> >> On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 1:54:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 11:54:31 AM UTC-5, Dave Springford wrote:
> >>>> Conspicuously missing from this thread, up until that last post is the Ventus. I think if you look at WGC statistics you will see that the Ventus has more wins than the 20.
> >>>>
> >>>> I had a 20 in the 90's, nice ship, great flaps and a joy to fly. I then moved to an LS6b, it was nicer to fly than the 20 and closer to ASW-27 performance than was the 20. The LS was better coordinated with a higher roll rate than the 20. It did take me some time to learn the feel of the LS6's stiff carbon wing after years of flying the floppy 20 wings.
> >>>>
> >>>> So , while I might not call the 20 "the greatest", it certainly was one of the great gliders of its day and has provided thousands of hours of enjoyment to pilots world-wide.
> >>> Dave, I flew my 20 for over a thousand hours, E9 and I both had 20"s along with E8 and EA, every day was a joy to fly the 20, mine was the original floppy wing 20L. Both E9 and EA could not keep up with that ole floppy monster. Bennie Flowers bought a new Ventus and still could not keep up with the 20. I never had a problem with the roll rate of the 20, it rolled just fine. The Ventus that Bennie had almost killed him , myself and a guy named Gary. That dang glider would automatically deploy the spoilers when near VNE, it happened to me and to Bennie as well.
> >>> Not taking away from the Ventus performance, but the difference in wins was the pilot, if those guys had been flying in the 20 the results would have probably been different. I still say it is the GOAT!
> >>> Come down to Vero this spring, I promise a great time. Bob
> >> I think 20's are great but, with my back, I would not trade the seating position, warm feet and comfort of my DG300 for a 20. I also preferred the DG300 responsiveness. The canopy gave me plenty of room to give a nice wave as the 20, 27 and 29s go by though and the trash talking was justifiably immense when it was me rarely going by.
> >> DG300 - 511 produced from 1983 to 2006 for comparison.
> >>
> >> Geoff
> >> MQ->5C
> >
> > Geoff, the DG 300 is a nice sailplane, just not on the same level as the 20. I never flew a nicer ride than my old 20L, I look at the DG and compare it to kissing my sister, I could do better or I could do worse!
> >
> Seems like back in the day, the '20 had a reputation for spinning in a
> lot. Maybe Darwinism helped weed out the pilots with inadequate spin
> training?
Real aft CG....yes it spun....I was behind the aft CG with different pilots flying.....I was the light guy....didn't check discs when I flew, wanted more aft CG....didn't realize another dropped discs....found out out about "over the top"spins real fast....still flyablable, but twitchy when stalled (zoomie roll into a thermal).,,owner/towpilot made a comment while I was doing it....
Still a great glider....

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

kinsell wrote on 1/8/2021 2:48 PM:
> On 1/8/21 3:42 PM, wrote:
.
>>>> Come down to Vero this spring, I promise a great time. Bob
>>> I think 20's are great but, with my back, I would not trade the seating position, warm feet
>>> and comfort of my DG300 for a 20. I also preferred the DG300 responsiveness. The canopy gave
>>> me plenty of room to give a nice wave as the 20, 27 and 29s go by though and the trash
>>> talking was justifiably immense when it was me rarely going by.
>>> DG300 - 511 produced from 1983 to 2006 for comparison.
>>>
>>> Geoff
>>> MQ->5C
>>
>> Geoff, the DG 300 is a nice sailplane, just not on the same level as the 20. I never flew a
>> nicer ride than my old 20L, I look at the DG and compare it to kissing my sister, I could do
>> better or I could do worse!
>>
...
>
> Seems like back in the day, the '20 had a reputation for spinning in a lot.* Maybe Darwinism
> helped weed out the pilots with inadequate spin training?

Early on, there were a half-dozen or so incidents. After that, no worse than other gliders, and
I don't recall any explanation. The C model I flew for 1500 hours never tried to spin - very
docile.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Nicholas Kennedy]

The problem with the initial model of the ASw 20 spinning inadvertently was caused by poor pilot training coupled with this idea that having the CG way aft was the way to go.
Pilots would put down the 55 degree flaps and forget or just not, trim for a pattern speed hands off.
The flaps are large, and if you put them full down and forget to trim and get distracted and let go of the forward pitch pressure the plane will rapidly slow down and stall. Coupled with low altitude and a full aft CG this situation was a recipe for disaster. And yes, there were several accidents.
When I got my ASw 20 check out this issue was beat into me by a couple of sharp cookies.
I never had a problem.
The fully rear CG thing is interesting, working with Tom Brenza in MoriarityNM I started out at about 50% aft for about 60 hours. Then I went to about 85% aft. Then, I thought anyway, doing alot of high speed cruising at 17+ out west my plane climbed great and ran best at about 60% aft CG.
Every thing I have owned easily spins, Except our ASK 21- My Blanik L-13 was a great ship to do as many spins as you wanted in both directions. My Ka6 CR was really good at controllable multiple, long duration spins, as is my LS3a.
I spent a Fall living in Fort Collins Co and got checked out in their C-150..
I would come over CX house high and spin that thing like crazy, musta done 200+ in that thing and got really comfortable doing them.
Nick
T

[George Haeh]

I bought my 20C from a heavier guy. He told me that there was lead plates above the tail skid and that you have to pull the rudder to get at them. I took the W&B and calculated what weight I needed in the tail for a suitable CG for my weight. Got that done before my import airworthiness inspection. The folks who did the inspection brought out the scales and weighed the glider outside. The glider lost quite a bit of weight courtesy of the light breeze as I found out comparing to the previous W&B.

So I took it to a highway weigh scale early one morning when the air was still.

I gave the lead plates I took out to the next owner.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 5:49:17 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> I bought my 20C from a heavier guy. He told me that there was lead plates above the tail skid and that you have to pull the rudder to get at them. I took the W&B and calculated what weight I needed in the tail for a suitable CG for my weight. Got that done before my import airworthiness inspection.. The folks who did the inspection brought out the scales and weighed the glider outside. The glider lost quite a bit of weight courtesy of the light breeze as I found out comparing to the previous W&B.
>
> So I took it to a highway weigh scale early one morning when the air was still.
>
> I gave the lead plates I took out to the next owner.
My 20 was involved in a fatal accident early in its life. Light weight pilot trying to thermal at pattern altitude spun in. Someone bought the wreck, bought a new fuselage and tail feathers, repaired the wings and put it back together. Kind of gnarred me out at first but I figured well at least it’s precrashed.

[kinsell]

On 1/8/21 5:53 PM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
> The problem with the initial model of the ASw 20 spinning inadvertently was caused by poor pilot training coupled with this idea that having the CG way aft was the way to go.
> Pilots would put down the 55 degree flaps and forget or just not, trim for a pattern speed hands off.
> The flaps are large, and if you put them full down and forget to trim and get distracted and let go of the forward pitch pressure the plane will rapidly slow down and stall. Coupled with low altitude and a full aft CG this situation was a recipe for disaster. And yes, there were several accidents.
> When I got my ASw 20 check out this issue was beat into me by a couple of sharp cookies.
> I never had a problem.
> The fully rear CG thing is interesting, working with Tom Brenza in MoriarityNM I started out at about 50% aft for about 60 hours. Then I went to about 85% aft. Then, I thought anyway, doing alot of high speed cruising at 17+ out west my plane climbed great and ran best at about 60% aft CG.
> Every thing I have owned easily spins, Except our ASK 21- My Blanik L-13 was a great ship to do as many spins as you wanted in both directions. My Ka6 CR was really good at controllable multiple, long duration spins, as is my LS3a.
> I spent a Fall living in Fort Collins Co and got checked out in their C-150.
> I would come over CX house high and spin that thing like crazy, musta done 200+ in that thing and got really comfortable doing them.
> Nick
> T
>

Found an article that claims the '20 spins like a top with landing gear
down and landing flaps selected, but is stable otherwise:

http://flsc.org/portals/12/PDF/Spinning.pdf

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, January 9, 2021 at 1:26:04 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
> On 1/8/21 5:53 PM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
> > The problem with the initial model of the ASw 20 spinning inadvertently was caused by poor pilot training coupled with this idea that having the CG way aft was the way to go.
> > Pilots would put down the 55 degree flaps and forget or just not, trim for a pattern speed hands off.
> > The flaps are large, and if you put them full down and forget to trim and get distracted and let go of the forward pitch pressure the plane will rapidly slow down and stall. Coupled with low altitude and a full aft CG this situation was a recipe for disaster. And yes, there were several accidents.
> > When I got my ASw 20 check out this issue was beat into me by a couple of sharp cookies.
> > I never had a problem.
> > The fully rear CG thing is interesting, working with Tom Brenza in MoriarityNM I started out at about 50% aft for about 60 hours. Then I went to about 85% aft. Then, I thought anyway, doing alot of high speed cruising at 17+ out west my plane climbed great and ran best at about 60% aft CG.
> > Every thing I have owned easily spins, Except our ASK 21- My Blanik L-13 was a great ship to do as many spins as you wanted in both directions. My Ka6 CR was really good at controllable multiple, long duration spins, as is my LS3a.
> > I spent a Fall living in Fort Collins Co and got checked out in their C-150.
> > I would come over CX house high and spin that thing like crazy, musta done 200+ in that thing and got really comfortable doing them.
> > Nick
> > T
> >
> Found an article that claims the '20 spins like a top with landing gear
> down and landing flaps selected, but is stable otherwise:
>
> http://flsc.org/portals/12/PDF/Spinning.pdf

The sister ship to my old 20 was involved in one of those fatal spin accidents, those accidents usually occurred while the flaps were in the landing position which may have been the reason for the change in flap extension in the later models. The over the top spin happened without much warning, I did it several times purposely to show Fonz how it reacted. He had a later model that would not replicate the over the top move.
The nickname given to the early 20's was , "The Killer", it did not deserve that reputation, flown correctly with correct cg it was a very docile and beautifully flying bird. My wife flew that 20 for many fun hours and she added about 30 pounds of weight under her seat to obtain a good cg.
Yes, zooming that beast into a thermal was a delightful ride, it seemed like it would never stop climbing, those floppy wings were a sight to behold.

[krasw]

I have 1000hrs in '20 with zero spins or surprising stalls. Load any glider from same vintage to aft c/g and it will spin, especially if you do not know how to deal with wing drop (excellent example posted on this forum just recently). Any flapped glider will stall and spin more abruptly with positive flaps. ASW20 being "killer" is OWT of all times. Puchacz is a killer, yes. '20, no.

[Hank Nixon]

On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 7:53:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> The problem with the initial model of the ASw 20 spinning inadvertently was caused by poor pilot training coupled with this idea that having the CG way aft was the way to go.
> Pilots would put down the 55 degree flaps and forget or just not, trim for a pattern speed hands off.
> The flaps are large, and if you put them full down and forget to trim and get distracted and let go of the forward pitch pressure the plane will rapidly slow down and stall. Coupled with low altitude and a full aft CG this situation was a recipe for disaster. And yes, there were several accidents.
> When I got my ASw 20 check out this issue was beat into me by a couple of sharp cookies.
> I never had a problem.
> The fully rear CG thing is interesting, working with Tom Brenza in MoriarityNM I started out at about 50% aft for about 60 hours. Then I went to about 85% aft. Then, I thought anyway, doing alot of high speed cruising at 17+ out west my plane climbed great and ran best at about 60% aft CG.
> Every thing I have owned easily spins, Except our ASK 21- My Blanik L-13 was a great ship to do as many spins as you wanted in both directions. My Ka6 CR was really good at controllable multiple, long duration spins, as is my LS3a.
> I spent a Fall living in Fort Collins Co and got checked out in their C-150.
> I would come over CX house high and spin that thing like crazy, musta done 200+ in that thing and got really comfortable doing them.
> Nick
> T
I owned 20's for about 15 years. Early experience showed that far aft CG made it much more prone to departure into a spin.
Over time I learned:
1- I put the CG at the point where I could turn as tightly as I wanted without running out of elevator at thermalling speed. That turned out to be about 80% aft. Stall spin characteristics were pretty benign.
2- Adding internal and external seals to wing controls meaningfully improved handling and stall/spin characteristic.
3- Good winglets make handling better and stall/spin more benign, up until the glider spins. After a spin is initiated, winglets can make it more abrupt.

After I took delivery of my first 20, I test flew it and it spun almost without warning out of a normal stall. Investigation found 15 lb of lead in the tail that was not documented. The previous owner said he only flew it with water and it was fine for him. The lesson I came away with is at least weigh the tail of any ship new to you to see if the weight agrees with your weight and balance. If not, investigate before becoming an involuntary test pilot.

UH

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

kinsell wrote on 1/8/2021 10:26 PM:
> On 1/8/21 5:53 PM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
>> The problem with the initial model of the ASw 20 spinning inadvertently was caused by poor
>> pilot training coupled with this idea that having the CG way aft was the way to go.
>> Pilots would put down the 55 degree flaps and forget or just not, trim for a pattern speed
>> hands off.
>> The flaps are large, and if you put them full down and forget to trim and get distracted and
>> let go of the forward pitch pressure the plane will rapidly slow down and stall.* Coupled
>> with low altitude and a full aft CG this situation was a recipe for disaster. And yes, there
>> were several accidents.
>> When I got my ASw 20 check out this issue was beat into me by a couple of sharp cookies.
>> I never had a problem.
>> The fully rear CG thing is interesting, working with Tom Brenza in MoriarityNM I started out
>> at about 50% aft for about 60 hours. Then I went to about 85% aft. Then, I thought anyway,
>> doing alot of high speed cruising at 17+ out west my plane climbed great and ran best at
>> about 60% aft CG.
>> Every thing I have owned easily spins, Except our* ASK 21- My Blanik L-13 was a great ship to
>> do as many spins as you wanted in both directions. My Ka6 CR was really good at controllable
>> multiple, long duration spins, as is my LS3a.
>> I spent a Fall living in Fort Collins Co and got checked out in their C-150.
>> I would come over CX house high and spin that thing like crazy, musta done 200+ in that thing
>> and got really comfortable doing them.
>> Nick
>> T
>>
>
> Found an article that claims the '20 spins like a top with landing gear down and landing flaps
> selected, but is stable otherwise:
>
> http://flsc.org/portals/12/PDF/Spinning.pdf

I'm surprised to hear that it will spin readily with the full landing flap, because that also
puts the ailerons into negative deflection. That makes it very difficult to stall the tips, a
usual condition for spinning. Perhaps the full deflection affects the airflow over the tail,
and that is cause?

The reason I heard the reason for changing from 60 degree deflection to 40 degrees was to avoid
damage to the flap rods in a hard landing, which was often undetected until the next landing.
Selecting full deflection would then fully deflect only one flap, giving a strong rolling
motion and a very surprised pilot.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Hank Nixon]

On Saturday, January 9, 2021 at 8:55:22 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> kinsell wrote on 1/8/2021 10:26 PM:
> > On 1/8/21 5:53 PM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
> >> The problem with the initial model of the ASw 20 spinning inadvertently was caused by poor
> >> pilot training coupled with this idea that having the CG way aft was the way to go.
> >> Pilots would put down the 55 degree flaps and forget or just not, trim for a pattern speed
> >> hands off.
> >> The flaps are large, and if you put them full down and forget to trim and get distracted and
> >> let go of the forward pitch pressure the plane will rapidly slow down and stall. Coupled
> >> with low altitude and a full aft CG this situation was a recipe for disaster. And yes, there
> >> were several accidents.
> >> When I got my ASw 20 check out this issue was beat into me by a couple of sharp cookies.
> >> I never had a problem.
> >> The fully rear CG thing is interesting, working with Tom Brenza in MoriarityNM I started out
> >> at about 50% aft for about 60 hours. Then I went to about 85% aft. Then, I thought anyway,
> >> doing alot of high speed cruising at 17+ out west my plane climbed great and ran best at
> >> about 60% aft CG.
> >> Every thing I have owned easily spins, Except our ASK 21- My Blanik L-13 was a great ship to
> >> do as many spins as you wanted in both directions. My Ka6 CR was really good at controllable
> >> multiple, long duration spins, as is my LS3a.
> >> I spent a Fall living in Fort Collins Co and got checked out in their C-150.
> >> I would come over CX house high and spin that thing like crazy, musta done 200+ in that thing
> >> and got really comfortable doing them.
> >> Nick
> >> T
> >>
> >
> > Found an article that claims the '20 spins like a top with landing gear down and landing flaps
> > selected, but is stable otherwise:
> >
> > http://flsc.org/portals/12/PDF/Spinning.pdf
> I'm surprised to hear that it will spin readily with the full landing flap, because that also
> puts the ailerons into negative deflection. That makes it very difficult to stall the tips, a
> usual condition for spinning. Perhaps the full deflection affects the airflow over the tail,
> and that is cause?
>
> The reason I heard the reason for changing from 60 degree deflection to 40 degrees was to avoid
> damage to the flap rods in a hard landing, which was often undetected until the next landing.
> Selecting full deflection would then fully deflect only one flap, giving a strong rolling
> motion and a very surprised pilot.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

The biggest reason for reduced flap deflection was to prevent damage to the newly implemented gap seals, originally metal and soon after polyester (Mylar).
My experience agrees with Eric in that landing flap makes the ship more docile, not less.
UH

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, January 10, 2021 at 6:00:08 AM UTC-8, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Saturday, January 9, 2021 at 8:55:22 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > kinsell wrote on 1/8/2021 10:26 PM:
> > > On 1/8/21 5:53 PM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
> > >> The problem with the initial model of the ASw 20 spinning inadvertently was caused by poor
> > >> pilot training coupled with this idea that having the CG way aft was the way to go.
> > >> Pilots would put down the 55 degree flaps and forget or just not, trim for a pattern speed
> > >> hands off.
> > >> The flaps are large, and if you put them full down and forget to trim and get distracted and
> > >> let go of the forward pitch pressure the plane will rapidly slow down and stall. Coupled
> > >> with low altitude and a full aft CG this situation was a recipe for disaster. And yes, there
> > >> were several accidents.
> > >> When I got my ASw 20 check out this issue was beat into me by a couple of sharp cookies.
> > >> I never had a problem.
> > >> The fully rear CG thing is interesting, working with Tom Brenza in MoriarityNM I started out
> > >> at about 50% aft for about 60 hours. Then I went to about 85% aft. Then, I thought anyway,
> > >> doing alot of high speed cruising at 17+ out west my plane climbed great and ran best at
> > >> about 60% aft CG.
> > >> Every thing I have owned easily spins, Except our ASK 21- My Blanik L-13 was a great ship to
> > >> do as many spins as you wanted in both directions. My Ka6 CR was really good at controllable
> > >> multiple, long duration spins, as is my LS3a.
> > >> I spent a Fall living in Fort Collins Co and got checked out in their C-150.
> > >> I would come over CX house high and spin that thing like crazy, musta done 200+ in that thing
> > >> and got really comfortable doing them.
> > >> Nick
> > >> T
> > >>
> > >
> > > Found an article that claims the '20 spins like a top with landing gear down and landing flaps
> > > selected, but is stable otherwise:
> > >
> > > http://flsc.org/portals/12/PDF/Spinning.pdf
> > I'm surprised to hear that it will spin readily with the full landing flap, because that also
> > puts the ailerons into negative deflection. That makes it very difficult to stall the tips, a
> > usual condition for spinning. Perhaps the full deflection affects the airflow over the tail,
> > and that is cause?
> >
> > The reason I heard the reason for changing from 60 degree deflection to 40 degrees was to avoid
> > damage to the flap rods in a hard landing, which was often undetected until the next landing.
> > Selecting full deflection would then fully deflect only one flap, giving a strong rolling
> > motion and a very surprised pilot.
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> The biggest reason for reduced flap deflection was to prevent damage to the newly implemented gap seals, originally metal and soon after polyester (Mylar).
> My experience agrees with Eric in that landing flap makes the ship more docile, not less.
> UH
I’ll go out and stall my 20 with full flaps this spring when I get it put back together.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 1/10/2021 6:35 AM:
> On Sunday, January 10, 2021 at 6:00:08 AM UTC-8, Hank Nixon wrote:
>
....

>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Found an article that claims the '20 spins like a top with landing gear down and landing flaps
>>>> selected, but is stable otherwise:
>>>>
>>>> http://flsc.org/portals/12/PDF/Spinning.pdf
>>> I'm surprised to hear that it will spin readily with the full landing flap, because that also
>>> puts the ailerons into negative deflection. That makes it very difficult to stall the tips, a
>>> usual condition for spinning. Perhaps the full deflection affects the airflow over the tail,
>>> and that is cause?
>>>
>>> The reason I heard the reason for changing from 60 degree deflection to 40 degrees was to avoid
>>> damage to the flap rods in a hard landing, which was often undetected until the next landing.
>>> Selecting full deflection would then fully deflect only one flap, giving a strong rolling
>>> motion and a very surprised pilot.
>>> --
>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>> The biggest reason for reduced flap deflection was to prevent damage to the newly implemented gap seals, originally metal and soon after polyester (Mylar).
>> My experience agrees with Eric in that landing flap makes the ship more docile, not less.
>> UH
> I’ll go out and stall my 20 with full flaps this spring when I get it put back together.
>
I hope you have the original 20 with the 60 degree flaps and are willing to try turning stalls.
My 20C, with 40 degree flaps, was hard to stall straight ahead, and remained controllable. I
don't recall trying any turning stalls in landing configuration, so I'd like to know how the
"A" model compares to the B or C model.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[George Haeh]

Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

George Haeh wrote on 1/10/2021 9:33 AM:
> Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.
>

I'm not expecting anyone to try to intentionally spin, but just fly as you normally would, and
"mishandle" it like a person might inadvertently do; eg, a steady, coordinated 20 deg banked
turn while you slow down, or perhaps a shallow skidded turn at slower and slower speeds.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, January 10, 2021 at 12:33:58 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.

Tell that to the few that were killed, I don't think that they did it on purpose, and the manual would not have made any difference.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, January 10, 2021 at 7:37:11 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> wrote on 1/10/2021 6:35 AM:
> > On Sunday, January 10, 2021 at 6:00:08 AM UTC-8, Hank Nixon wrote:
> >
> ....
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Found an article that claims the '20 spins like a top with landing gear down and landing flaps
> >>>> selected, but is stable otherwise:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://flsc.org/portals/12/PDF/Spinning.pdf
> >>> I'm surprised to hear that it will spin readily with the full landing flap, because that also
> >>> puts the ailerons into negative deflection. That makes it very difficult to stall the tips, a
> >>> usual condition for spinning. Perhaps the full deflection affects the airflow over the tail,
> >>> and that is cause?
> >>>
> >>> The reason I heard the reason for changing from 60 degree deflection to 40 degrees was to avoid
> >>> damage to the flap rods in a hard landing, which was often undetected until the next landing.
> >>> Selecting full deflection would then fully deflect only one flap, giving a strong rolling
> >>> motion and a very surprised pilot.
> >>> --
> >>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> >>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >> The biggest reason for reduced flap deflection was to prevent damage to the newly implemented gap seals, originally metal and soon after polyester (Mylar).
> >> My experience agrees with Eric in that landing flap makes the ship more docile, not less.
> >> UH
> > I’ll go out and stall my 20 with full flaps this spring when I get it put back together.
> >
> I hope you have the original 20 with the 60 degree flaps and are willing to try turning stalls.
> My 20C, with 40 degree flaps, was hard to stall straight ahead, and remained controllable. I
> don't recall trying any turning stalls in landing configuration, so I'd like to know how the
> "A" model compares to the B or C model.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Yep I have an early “A� model. I’ll get up high this spring and see how it goes. I don’t recall if I did a full flap stall when I initially checked myself out.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 1/10/2021 4:26 PM:
> On Sunday, January 10, 2021 at 7:37:11 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> wrote on 1/10/2021 6:35 AM:
>>> On Sunday, January 10, 2021 at 6:00:08 AM UTC-8, Hank Nixon wrote:
>>>
>> ....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Found an article that claims the '20 spins like a top with landing gear down and landing flaps
>>>>>> selected, but is stable otherwise:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://flsc.org/portals/12/PDF/Spinning.pdf
>>>>> I'm surprised to hear that it will spin readily with the full landing flap, because that also
>>>>> puts the ailerons into negative deflection. That makes it very difficult to stall the tips, a
>>>>> usual condition for spinning. Perhaps the full deflection affects the airflow over the tail,
>>>>> and that is cause?
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason I heard the reason for changing from 60 degree deflection to 40 degrees was to avoid
>>>>> damage to the flap rods in a hard landing, which was often undetected until the next landing.
>>>>> Selecting full deflection would then fully deflect only one flap, giving a strong rolling
>>>>> motion and a very surprised pilot.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>>>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>>>> The biggest reason for reduced flap deflection was to prevent damage to the newly implemented gap seals, originally metal and soon after polyester (Mylar).
>>>> My experience agrees with Eric in that landing flap makes the ship more docile, not less.
>>>> UH
>>> I’ll go out and stall my 20 with full flaps this spring when I get it put back together.
>>>
>> I hope you have the original 20 with the 60 degree flaps and are willing to try turning stalls.
>> My 20C, with 40 degree flaps, was hard to stall straight ahead, and remained controllable. I
>> don't recall trying any turning stalls in landing configuration, so I'd like to know how the
>> "A" model compares to the B or C model.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> Yep I have an early “A” model. I’ll get up high this spring and see how it goes. I don’t recall if I did a full flap stall when I initially checked myself out.
>
Doing it with/without the spoilers open (as is normal for landing), may produce quite different
results, so be careful up there.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Delta8]

;1038447']George Haeh wrote on 1/10/2021 9:33 AM:
Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.


I'm not expecting anyone to try to intentionally spin, but just fly as you normally would, and
"mishandle" it like a person might inadvertently do; eg, a steady, coordinated 20 deg banked
turn while you slow down, or perhaps a shallow skidded turn at slower and slower speeds.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

I'm a relatively new 20 a driver ( 50 hrs ) but my third flight I intentionally spun it in both directions on purpose with plenty of altitude ( and a parachute ). I would rather know where the edge is . I haven't spun in landing flap setting. VNE is around 65kts if I recall.

Thanks to the internet I was able to benefit from all the experiences of others . I am about 80% aft cg and found no bad characteristics.

Max flap setting/spoilers is like landing a 1-26 , Just don't do a full stall landing it will drop like a rock .

One fine machine

[krasw]

On Sunday, 10 January 2021 at 19:33:58 UTC+2, wrote:
> Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.

I do not remember reading such in the '20 manual, and quick check on limitations and spin section does not mention this?

[[email protected]]

On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 12:29:32 AM UTC-8, krasw wrote:
> On Sunday, 10 January 2021 at 19:33:58 UTC+2, wrote:
> > Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.
> I do not remember reading such in the '20 manual, and quick check on limitations and spin section does not mention this?
You are correct. The manual does say- “The ASW 20 spins easier and flatter with positive (down) flap settings (4+5) than with negative (up) flap settings (2+1). Therefore, setting the flaps in negative positions is a measure to prevent wing dropping and spins.�
The manual also says- “Recovery from spin can be easier achieved, if the flaps are set in a negative position.�

[John Galloway[_2_]]

On Monday, 11 January 2021 at 14:20:04 UTC, wrote:
> On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 12:29:32 AM UTC-8, krasw wrote:
> > On Sunday, 10 January 2021 at 19:33:58 UTC+2, wrote:
> > > Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.
> > I do not remember reading such in the '20 manual, and quick check on limitations and spin section does not mention this?
> You are correct. The manual does say- “The ASW 20 spins easier and flatter with positive (down) flap settings (4+5) than with negative (up) flap settings (2+1). Therefore, setting the flaps in negative positions is a measure to prevent wing dropping and spins.�
> The manual also says- “Recovery from spin can be easier achieved, if the flaps are set in a negative position.�

More importantly, with any flapped glider you must move the flaps to at least neutral to prevent exceeding positive flap limiting speeds during a spin recovery.

[Tango Whisky]

Upon spin entry with a flapped glider, you should always put the flaps to full negative. That reduces the appearent angle of attack and speeds up the recovery.

Le lundi 11 janvier 2021 Ã* 15:27:21 UTC+1, a écritÂ*:
> On Monday, 11 January 2021 at 14:20:04 UTC, wrote:
> > On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 12:29:32 AM UTC-8, krasw wrote:
> > > On Sunday, 10 January 2021 at 19:33:58 UTC+2, wrote:
> > > > Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.
> > > I do not remember reading such in the '20 manual, and quick check on limitations and spin section does not mention this?
> > You are correct. The manual does say- “The ASW 20 spins easier and flatter with positive (down) flap settings (4+5) than with negative (up) flap settings (2+1). Therefore, setting the flaps in negative positions is a measure to prevent wing dropping and spins.�
> > The manual also says- “Recovery from spin can be easier achieved, if the flaps are set in a negative position.�
> More importantly, with any flapped glider you must move the flaps to at least neutral to prevent exceeding positive flap limiting speeds during a spin recovery.

[George Haeh]

> > Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.
> I do not remember reading such in the '20 manual, and quick check on limitations and spin section does not mention this?

It's prohibited in the 27 manual. I sold my 20 five years ago and don't have that manual any more.

[kinsell]

On 1/11/21 11:54 AM, George Haeh wrote:
>
>>> Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.
>> I do not remember reading such in the '20 manual, and quick check on limitations and spin section does not mention this?
>
> It's prohibited in the 27 manual. I sold my 20 five years ago and don't have that manual any more.
>

This is for the ASW20, apparently the original model:

ttps://mgrim.nl/_downloads/asw20l/asw20-flight-manual.pdf

Not seeing any prohibition about landing flap setting, just the verbiage
about spins with positive flaps being easier and flatter.

Maybe other variants are different.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, January 2, 2021 at 8:50:15 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 7:49:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps, yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did result in deadly accidents.
> > There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy wing as we consider called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up from most any speed. Later models were changed to a lesser flap configuration and much stiffer wings.
> > In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3, which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
> > By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
> > Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
> > How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
> I had two 20's, starting with an early one and then a 20C.
> The 20 leaves little to be desired in terms of performance. handling, and ease of use. It also had some very good safety features including
> a real wheel brake, energy absorbing gear, and a strong cockpit design. Safety was enhanced in the next generation by the cockpit structure of the '24 that won Waibel may awards and led the industry.
> Others I would consider for GOAT:
> Ka6 series. Wonderful flying characteristics and very good performance for the time.
> SH Discus. Modern glass with excellent handing and performance. A glider that is both suitable for first single seater and good enough to be a glider for a lifetime.
> Happy New Year to all
> UH
Well, I rest my case, take a look at the OLC for 1-27, as of now the top of the list is an ASW20, 800 KM flown, 786.5 Km triangle. The 20 still can make the leaderboard, that was a very good flight, the triangle, the toughest of all. Bob

[Dan Marotta]

What is it they used to say? It ain't the dog in the fight, it's the
fight in the dog...

Dan

On 1/27/21 2:38 PM, wrote:
> On Saturday, January 2, 2021 at 8:50:15 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
>> On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 7:49:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
>>> Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps, yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did result in deadly accidents.
>>> There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy wing as we consider called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up from most any speed. Later models were changed to a lesser flap configuration and much stiffer wings.
>>> In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3, which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
>>> By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
>>> Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
>>> How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
>> I had two 20's, starting with an early one and then a 20C.
>> The 20 leaves little to be desired in terms of performance. handling, and ease of use. It also had some very good safety features including
>> a real wheel brake, energy absorbing gear, and a strong cockpit design. Safety was enhanced in the next generation by the cockpit structure of the '24 that won Waibel may awards and led the industry.
>> Others I would consider for GOAT:
>> Ka6 series. Wonderful flying characteristics and very good performance for the time.
>> SH Discus. Modern glass with excellent handing and performance. A glider that is both suitable for first single seater and good enough to be a glider for a lifetime.
>> Happy New Year to all
>> UH
> Well, I rest my case, take a look at the OLC for 1-27, as of now the top of the list is an ASW20, 800 KM flown, 786.5 Km triangle. The 20 still can make the leaderboard, that was a very good flight, the triangle, the toughest of all. Bob
>