FLARM releases firmware for ADS-R and TIS-B

[Dave Nadler]

Hi All - FLARM has announced release of firmware supporting ADS-R and
TIS-B reception. This feature is included in new firmware for Core
Fusion. For original PowerFLARM core and portable, this requires a
license available here:
https://flarm.com/shop/ads-r-and-tis-b-reception-adsr/

Firmware is available here:
https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/download-firmware.

Additional info about this feature here:
https://flarm.com/products/product-add-ons/ads-r-tis-b.

Enjoy!
Best Regards, Dave

[MNLou]

I can't say that I'm happy that they choose to charge for this pretty important upgrade.

Lou

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Please consider ordering the ADS-R Enable from your local FLARM dealer. The price is the same for you.
https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/flarm-powerflarm-enable-ads-r

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 2:53:19 PM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
> I can't say that I'm happy that they choose to charge for this pretty important upgrade.
>
> Lou

[George Haeh]

It looks like this feature is only applicable in the US. I doubt there's any benefit in having it in Canada.

[Moshe Braner]

On 1/13/2021 3:53 PM, MNLou wrote:
> I can't say that I'm happy that they choose to charge for this pretty important upgrade.
>
> Lou
>

Right. It's just a software change, like other firmware updates. And
it enhances safety. Charging (149 euros) for activating the feature
means a lot of people will skip it, and ADS-R "targets" will remain
invisible. And those UAT "targets" are generally small airplanes who
share our altitudes. It's one thing to charge extra for non-safety
bonus features (such as IGC approved logging) and another to cut into
the basic collision avoidance purpose of the device.

Question: the lack of collision warnings due to low accuracy fix, does
that apply to ADS-R or only to TIS-B? You'd think the position of
airplanes transmitting GPS coordinates on UAT is precisely known, just
like those transmitting on 1090? Only airplanes whose position is only
derived from ground RADAR would be imprecise.

[Darryl Ramm]

Please remember that for ADS-R and TIS-B to work reliably your glider needs to be ADS-B Out equipped. That can be 2020 Compliant or TABS (but not say any old GPS providing position data to ADS-B Out with SIL=0) this allows the glider to be it a client of the ADS-R and TIS-B ground based services. You also need to configure the ADS-B Out to describe that the glider/PowerFLARM can receive ADS-B data on 1090ES. Since we are talking almost excessively Trig transponders that means that on the Trig transponder ADS-B setup menu you set "1090ES In" to YES and "UAT In" to NO. (that's the way I've been encouraging folks to set this up anyhow... waiting for this day to come :-)).

If your glider has ADS-B Out today and PowerFLARM this is something I would encourage you to just install over winter. If you fly near dense GA traffic (which may be more likely to be UAT Out or only transponder equipped) then this may be justification for upgrading to ADS-B Out to enable your glider to be a ADS-R and TIS-B client.... and also to ensure that hopefully much of that traffic can also see you.

This update has been a significant amount of work from FLARM, to serve a relatively small customer base in the USA. And it's not trivial to implement, thanks Jerome and Urban at Flarm for doing the hard work here. Also thanks to folks in the USA who have test flow this over the last few months.

Do you have ADS-R and TIS-B ADS-B ground service coverage near your gliderport? Or other busy traffic areas? You can start by lookin at the FAA ADS-B coverage maps in Google Earth: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace (the radar coverage info there will also give you an idea if you will see traffic via SSR/TIS-B).

On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 9:34:59 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Hi All - FLARM has announced release of firmware supporting ADS-R and
> TIS-B reception. This feature is included in new firmware for Core
> Fusion. For original PowerFLARM core and portable, this requires a
> license available here:
> https://flarm.com/shop/ads-r-and-tis-b-reception-adsr/
>
> Firmware is available here:
> https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/download-firmware.
>
> Additional info about this feature here:
> https://flarm.com/products/product-add-ons/ads-r-tis-b.
>
> Enjoy!
> Best Regards, Dave

[Darryl Ramm]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 3:21:45 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> It looks like this feature is only applicable in the US. I doubt there's any benefit in having it in Canada.

That is made pretty clear in the FLARM announcement. ADS-R and TIS-B are USA only services. This option has absolutely no benefit to anybody outside the USA.

[MNLou]

Gents - I made a mistake in my earlier, now deleted, post.

After some off line discussion, I now understand that Flarm went to significant effort and expense to increase the safety of US glider pilots. Recouping some of that cost is reasonable.

Mea culpa -

Lou

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 4:51:25 PM UTC-5, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Please consider ordering the ADS-R Enable from your local FLARM dealer. The price is the same for you.
> https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/flarm-powerflarm-enable-ads-r
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Hello Paul - for the Canadian readers, many of whom have PowerFLARM CORE; is the factory recommendation to update to 7.03 firmware - most current on the FLARM website - or stay back on 7.02? It is not clear in the release notes. Happy New Year. You can take your time with the answer, since we won't be flying until April (snow) or later (that pesky virus (tongue in cheek))..

[Paul Remde]

Hi Dan,

It doesn't appear that there is any benefit to upgrading from 7.02 to 7.03 for anyone outside the USA.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde

On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 7:55:06 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 4:51:25 PM UTC-5, Paul Remde wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Please consider ordering the ADS-R Enable from your local FLARM dealer. The price is the same for you.
> > https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/store/flarm-powerflarm-enable-ads-r
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Paul Remde
> > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> Hello Paul - for the Canadian readers, many of whom have PowerFLARM CORE; is the factory recommendation to update to 7.03 firmware - most current on the FLARM website - or stay back on 7.02? It is not clear in the release notes. Happy New Year. You can take your time with the answer, since we won't be flying until April (snow) or later (that pesky virus (tongue in cheek)).

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

Moshe,

Only TIS-B has position uncertainty from the imprecision of SSR, which varies with the distance from the radar station. Both ADS-R and TIS-B have some position error from delay introduced by the reception-processing-rebroadcast sequence. ADS-B is not designed for close proximity collision warning - it's more a traffic separation tool - 5 miles and 1000 feet. I believe you can get ADS-R/TIS-B traffic alerts at, say, 1 mile, depending on on your display.

I have no problem with the small fee (a few tows) to compensate for the trouble and expense to deliver this US-only functionality. It's a significantly complex task to integrate these new target types - at less than a 10% upcharge on the core unit. Keep in mind that they had to do this from a country that doesn't have these services so all the testing and refinement of the code had to be done based on a remote unit installed at my house overlooking SFO followed by flight testing 7 time zones away with emailed flight logs and pilot reports - no direct hands-on. They didn't have to do it at all - the US is a small segment of the total global soaring market for Flarm. I'm glad they did. It works well.

If you get a Fusion it's all included. That might be the preferred choice if you don't like the feature unbundling.

Andy Blackburn
9B


On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 3:26:55 PM UTC-8, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 1/13/2021 3:53 PM, MNLou wrote:
> > I can't say that I'm happy that they choose to charge for this pretty important upgrade.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> Right. It's just a software change, like other firmware updates. And
> it enhances safety. Charging (149 euros) for activating the feature
> means a lot of people will skip it, and ADS-R "targets" will remain
> invisible. And those UAT "targets" are generally small airplanes who
> share our altitudes. It's one thing to charge extra for non-safety
> bonus features (such as IGC approved logging) and another to cut into
> the basic collision avoidance purpose of the device.
>
> Question: the lack of collision warnings due to low accuracy fix, does
> that apply to ADS-R or only to TIS-B? You'd think the position of
> airplanes transmitting GPS coordinates on UAT is precisely known, just
> like those transmitting on 1090? Only airplanes whose position is only
> derived from ground RADAR would be imprecise.

[Urban Mäder]

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 8:23:00 AM UTC+1, wrote:
> Moshe,
>
> Only TIS-B has position uncertainty from the imprecision of SSR, which varies with the distance from the radar station. Both ADS-R and TIS-B have some position error from delay introduced by the reception-processing-rebroadcast sequence. ADS-B is not designed for close proximity collision warning - it's more a traffic separation tool - 5 miles and 1000 feet. I believe you can get ADS-R/TIS-B traffic alerts at, say, 1 mile, depending on on your display.

Yes. We will try enabling traffic alerts for ADS-R, but I'm a bit reluctant since correctly detecting tow trains may be hard, given the (uncertain) time delay.

Honestly, the dual-ADS-B setup in the US - of which ADS-R/TIS-B is the consequence - is a surprisingly complex beast. We're thus happy to hear your feedback, preferably with IGC log files sent along to .

Thanks
- Urban

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 6:12:27 AM UTC-8, Urban Mäder wrote:
> On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 8:23:00 AM UTC+1, wrote:
> > Moshe,
> >
> > Only TIS-B has position uncertainty from the imprecision of SSR, which varies with the distance from the radar station. Both ADS-R and TIS-B have some position error from delay introduced by the reception-processing-rebroadcast sequence. ADS-B is not designed for close proximity collision warning - it's more a traffic separation tool - 5 miles and 1000 feet. I believe you can get ADS-R/TIS-B traffic alerts at, say, 1 mile, depending on on your display.
> Yes. We will try enabling traffic alerts for ADS-R, but I'm a bit reluctant since correctly detecting tow trains may be hard, given the (uncertain) time delay.
>
> Honestly, the dual-ADS-B setup in the US - of which ADS-R/TIS-B is the consequence - is a surprisingly complex beast. We're thus happy to hear your feedback, preferably with IGC log files sent along to .
>
> Thanks
> - Urban


The Benefit for upgrading to 7.03 is that the annual update is reset.

FLARM uses a rolling release cycle, requiring an annual update. Each update can be applied anytime during a rolling one-year period. This makes it easier to align FLARM firmware updates with the yearly aircraft maintenance. It is also in line with the maintenance care that a safety system requires.

The ADS-R and TIS-B reception is important to be able to receive aircraft that have UAT instead of 1090ES or that have no ADS-B Out at all.

You can purchase at:

http://www.craggyaero.com/powerflarm_core1.htm

Happy New Year

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Cliff Hilty[_5_]]

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:14:50 AM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 6:12:27 AM UTC-8, Urban Mäder wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 8:23:00 AM UTC+1, wrote:
> > > Moshe,
> > >
> > > Only TIS-B has position uncertainty from the imprecision of SSR, which varies with the distance from the radar station. Both ADS-R and TIS-B have some position error from delay introduced by the reception-processing-rebroadcast sequence. ADS-B is not designed for close proximity collision warning - it's more a traffic separation tool - 5 miles and 1000 feet. I believe you can get ADS-R/TIS-B traffic alerts at, say, 1 mile, depending on on your display.
> > Yes. We will try enabling traffic alerts for ADS-R, but I'm a bit reluctant since correctly detecting tow trains may be hard, given the (uncertain) time delay.
> >
> > Honestly, the dual-ADS-B setup in the US - of which ADS-R/TIS-B is the consequence - is a surprisingly complex beast. We're thus happy to hear your feedback, preferably with IGC log files sent along to .
> >
> > Thanks
> > - Urban
> The Benefit for upgrading to 7.03 is that the annual update is reset.
>
> FLARM uses a rolling release cycle, requiring an annual update. Each update can be applied anytime during a rolling one-year period. This makes it easier to align FLARM firmware updates with the yearly aircraft maintenance. It is also in line with the maintenance care that a safety system requires..
>
> The ADS-R and TIS-B reception is important to be able to receive aircraft that have UAT instead of 1090ES or that have no ADS-B Out at all.
>
> You can purchase at:
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/powerflarm_core1.htm
>
> Happy New Year
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com
So if I have a core and no ads out, do I still have to purchase to do the annual update?

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 10:00:35 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:14:50 AM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 6:12:27 AM UTC-8, Urban Mäder wrote:
> > > On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 8:23:00 AM UTC+1, wrote:
> > > > Moshe,
> > > >
> > > > Only TIS-B has position uncertainty from the imprecision of SSR, which varies with the distance from the radar station. Both ADS-R and TIS-B have some position error from delay introduced by the reception-processing-rebroadcast sequence. ADS-B is not designed for close proximity collision warning - it's more a traffic separation tool - 5 miles and 1000 feet. I believe you can get ADS-R/TIS-B traffic alerts at, say, 1 mile, depending on on your display.
> > > Yes. We will try enabling traffic alerts for ADS-R, but I'm a bit reluctant since correctly detecting tow trains may be hard, given the (uncertain) time delay.
> > >
> > > Honestly, the dual-ADS-B setup in the US - of which ADS-R/TIS-B is the consequence - is a surprisingly complex beast. We're thus happy to hear your feedback, preferably with IGC log files sent along to .
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > - Urban
> > The Benefit for upgrading to 7.03 is that the annual update is reset.
> >
> > FLARM uses a rolling release cycle, requiring an annual update. Each update can be applied anytime during a rolling one-year period. This makes it easier to align FLARM firmware updates with the yearly aircraft maintenance. It is also in line with the maintenance care that a safety system requires.
> >
> > The ADS-R and TIS-B reception is important to be able to receive aircraft that have UAT instead of 1090ES or that have no ADS-B Out at all.
> >
> > You can purchase at:
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/powerflarm_core1.htm
> >
> > Happy New Year
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
> So if I have a core and no ads out, do I still have to purchase to do the annual update?


No you don't have to purchase anything the firmware update is always free.

Yes get the update or your Flarm will not work after the 1 year update cycle. Update is free

Read the following information carefully to ensure that your device is always kept serviceable.

FLARM uses a rolling release cycle, requiring an annual update. Each update can be applied anytime during a rolling one-year period. This makes it easier to align FLARM firmware updates with the yearly aircraft maintenance. It is also in line with the maintenance care that a safety system requires.

As the update cycle is individual, no generic information is sent out on individual firmware expiration dates.

Sign up now for our Newsletter to be informed when new and important firmware is released. You can do this in the Newsletter box at the bottom of the sidebar to the right. After clicking on the link in the email that you will receive, you will also receive information about other upcoming releases introducing additional features.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 10:00:35 AM UTC-8, Cliff Hilty wrote:
/snip/
> So if I have a core and no ads out, do I still have to purchase to do the annual update?

No. You purchase the option if you want it.

[Dgtarmichael]

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 12:54:50 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 10:00:35 AM UTC-8, Cliff Hilty wrote:
> /snip/
> > So if I have a core and no ads out, do I still have to purchase to do the annual update?
> No. You purchase the option if you want it.


If I dont have ADS-B out will this firmware upgrade do anything for me? I'm on the waiting list for a Fusion so I'm getting it anyway.

[Ramy[_2_]]

I’ve been flying with the beta version for several month and it works very well. This is also an opportunity to save by buying the powerflarm fusion in the discounted price of about $1500 which includes all licenses and save on the $160 license fee, then sell your old core when the price goes up.

On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 9:34:59 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Hi All - FLARM has announced release of firmware supporting ADS-R and
> TIS-B reception. This feature is included in new firmware for Core
> Fusion. For original PowerFLARM core and portable, this requires a
> license available here:
> https://flarm.com/shop/ads-r-and-tis-b-reception-adsr/
>
> Firmware is available here:
> https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/download-firmware.
>
> Additional info about this feature here:
> https://flarm.com/products/product-add-ons/ads-r-tis-b.
>
> Enjoy!
> Best Regards, Dave

[Bruce]

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> I’ve been flying with the beta version for several month and it works very well. This is also an opportunity to save by buying the powerflarm fusion in the discounted price of about $1500 which includes all licenses and save on the $160 license fee, then sell your old core when the price goes up.
> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 9:34:59 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Hi All - FLARM has announced release of firmware supporting ADS-R and
> > TIS-B reception. This feature is included in new firmware for Core
> > Fusion. For original PowerFLARM core and portable, this requires a
> > license available here:
> > https://flarm.com/shop/ads-r-and-tis-b-reception-adsr/
> >
> > Firmware is available here:
> > https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/download-firmware.
> >
> > Additional info about this feature here:
> > https://flarm.com/products/product-add-ons/ads-r-tis-b.
> >
> > Enjoy!



The new Powerflarm Fusion has wifi and blue tooth to feed ForeFlight etc. Does it feed the ADS-B weather info and notams etc to the Electronic Flight Bag systems?

Bruce

[Darryl Ramm]

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:25:24 AM UTC-8, Bruce wrote:
/s/
> The new Powerflarm Fusion has wifi and blue tooth to feed ForeFlight etc. Does it feed the ADS-B weather info and notams etc to the Electronic Flight Bag systems?
>
> Bruce

No. It has no way of doing this, FIS-B data is transmitted over UAT. PowerFLARM devices, (original ones with the "ADS-B option",--which all in the USA should have been purchased with, or the new PowerFLARM Fusion) receive ADS-B In on 1090ES In only. If they had UAT In capability we would not be having this whole announcement about ADS-R support. But just getting FIS-B is easy--you just need a separate UAT or better dual-link ADS-B receiver driving Foreflight, no need for the glider to be equipped with ADS-B to be a "client", that data is just broadcast in the blind as long as you have line of sight/range to towers (for wider area forecasts if you want that you may need line of sight to more distant towers, can be worth reading up on how FIS-B forecast data is transmitted if you plan to use this).

But the big question is did you want that Foreflight system to also display traffic data? Foreflight system driven by a dual-link ADS-B receiver will not display any FLARM only equipped traffic and won't provide FLARM style traffic alerts for any type of Traffic it can see. And without suitable ADS-B Out neither system will reliably display TIS-B traffic. What is the best choice here depends on what traffic threats are of most concern, and if the glider is ADS-B Out equipped, etc. and I sure worry that too many things displaying different data and beeping away in a cockpit is not a good idea.... or if folks do that they really understand what is going on and how to use the different systems.

PowerFLARM Fusion is a nice improvement over existing PowerFLARM units, including for use in the USA. In Europe and the rest of the world it does provide real "Fusion" between FLARM, ADS-B and different display devices but in the USA, with our overly complex ADS-B system not used anywhere else in the world the story is as usual more complicated. Here in the USA "Fusion" does not cover all of ADS-B capabilities (no UAT-In Direct, and no FIS-B) but it's included support for ADS-R and TIS-B is a good step forward.

[Matt Herron Jr.]

Question;

The FCC limits the amount of power that can be broadcast on the FLARM frequency. Given that the new fusion FLARM x-mitts on both antennas, does this mean that each antenna is putting out 1/2 the power of the original powerflarm core with a single x-mitting antenna? If so, wouldn't we expect fewer blind spot with the fusion, but less overall range than the core?

Also, would we need to concern ourselves with nodes of poor reception due to the interference of the two x-mitters?

Thanks,
Matt

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Matt Herron Jr. wrote on 1/18/2021 11:12 AM:
> Question;
>
> The FCC limits the amount of power that can be broadcast on the FLARM frequency. Given that the new fusion FLARM x-mitts on both antennas, does this mean that each antenna is putting out 1/2 the power of the original powerflarm core with a single x-mitting antenna? If so, wouldn't we expect fewer blind spot with the fusion, but less overall range than the core?
>
> Also, would we need to concern ourselves with nodes of poor reception due to the interference of the two x-mitters?
>
My understanding for Powerflarm (and I assume, Fusion) is there is a transceiver for each
antenna, and that they don't broadcast at the same time, so each transmission could be at full
power and no chance of nodes. Dave will set me straight if that's wrong :^)


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Matt Herron Jr.]

If true, that's very clever!

On Monday, January 18, 2021 at 1:12:55 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Matt Herron Jr. wrote on 1/18/2021 11:12 AM:
> > Question;
> >
> > The FCC limits the amount of power that can be broadcast on the FLARM frequency. Given that the new fusion FLARM x-mitts on both antennas, does this mean that each antenna is putting out 1/2 the power of the original powerflarm core with a single x-mitting antenna? If so, wouldn't we expect fewer blind spot with the fusion, but less overall range than the core?
> >
> > Also, would we need to concern ourselves with nodes of poor reception due to the interference of the two x-mitters?
> >
> My understanding for Powerflarm (and I assume, Fusion) is there is a transceiver for each
> antenna, and that they don't broadcast at the same time, so each transmission could be at full
> power and no chance of nodes. Dave will set me straight if that's wrong :^)
>
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Darryl Ramm]

Not really very clever--it's the only way this would really work and nobody would design a system any other way. You kind of answered this yourself with the "interference of the two x-mitters". Any system that split the RF signal would not work reliably exactly because of this interference, and likewise if the antennas split the received RF signal would have interference issues on receive as well. So FLARM A and B have to be two independent transmitters and receivers. And sure enough if you pull apart one of these units you'll see the separate diversity chip communicating with the main FLARM chip digitally, but with it's own RF stages.

On Monday, January 18, 2021 at 2:23:43 PM UTC-8, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> If true, that's very clever!
> On Monday, January 18, 2021 at 1:12:55 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Matt Herron Jr. wrote on 1/18/2021 11:12 AM:
> > > Question;
> > >
> > > The FCC limits the amount of power that can be broadcast on the FLARM frequency. Given that the new fusion FLARM x-mitts on both antennas, does this mean that each antenna is putting out 1/2 the power of the original powerflarm core with a single x-mitting antenna? If so, wouldn't we expect fewer blind spot with the fusion, but less overall range than the core?
> > >
> > > Also, would we need to concern ourselves with nodes of poor reception due to the interference of the two x-mitters?
> > >
> > My understanding for Powerflarm (and I assume, Fusion) is there is a transceiver for each
> > antenna, and that they don't broadcast at the same time, so each transmission could be at full
> > power and no chance of nodes. Dave will set me straight if that's wrong :^)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[krasw]

On Friday, 15 January 2021 at 19:47:30 UTC+2, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>
> PowerFLARM Fusion is a nice improvement over existing PowerFLARM units, including for use in the USA. In Europe and the rest of the world it does provide real "Fusion" between FLARM, ADS-B and different display devices but in the USA, with our overly complex ADS-B system not used anywhere else in the world the story is as usual more complicated.

Haha. European system is not complicated because it is from stone age, we have no way uploading data to aircraft. I would take US system in a heartbeat as my country supports only C-mode transponders (better than A-mode though), no-one has in heard the word ADS-B. Grass is truly greener on the other side of the fence.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 12:12:55 AM UTC-8, krasw wrote:
> On Friday, 15 January 2021 at 19:47:30 UTC+2, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> >
> > PowerFLARM Fusion is a nice improvement over existing PowerFLARM units, including for use in the USA. In Europe and the rest of the world it does provide real "Fusion" between FLARM, ADS-B and different display devices but in the USA, with our overly complex ADS-B system not used anywhere else in the world the story is as usual more complicated.
> Haha. European system is not complicated because it is from stone age, we have no way uploading data to aircraft. I would take US system in a heartbeat as my country supports only C-mode transponders (better than A-mode though), no-one has in heard the word ADS-B. Grass is truly greener on the other side of the fence.

I'm not sure you really have much of an idea what you are saying. Especially I doubt you appreciate the limitations of using dual-link ADS-B for traffic. What data do you want transmitted to aircraft? FIS-B data? That can be done on UAT with no dependence on UAT for traffic awareness or surveillance , as has been done already in trials in the UK. You folks outside the USA could hopefully get the FIS-B data benefits without any of the dual-link traffic disadvantages.

I'm not sure where you are but, but Mode-C is pretty dead in Europe. EUROCONTROL managed to drive broader adoption of Mode-S based surveillance (initially for IFR flights). And there is nothing "stone age" about much of the Mode-S and 1090ES capable surveillance system across Europe. That use of Mode-S in Europe, including displacing/end of life of many Mode-C transponders, helped reduce RF congestion in the busiest airspace, and to plant a foundation for 1090ES ADS-B, and was likely a better long term surveillance and traffic avoidance move than what the USA did with preserving Mode-C use and pushing to go dual-link ADS-B.

And the end result? We have an ADS-B system in the USA that is very complex, could have achieved things like traffic awareness much simpler and better on a single link layer, but it is very nice for some things, like increased surveillance coverage, (but again that could have been done on a single link layer), but it cannot deliver many of the hyped past claims, likely can't allow safe reduction in the number of approach SSR systems for example, and is so fundamentally insecure that it may represent a serious national security risk.

[krasw]

On Tuesday, 19 January 2021 at 11:19:41 UTC+2, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> I'm not sure you really have much of an idea what you are saying.

I think you are wrong. I know for a fact that my country can not do anything with mode-s data, infrastructure supports only mode-c.

[Charles Gillespie]

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 5:24:35 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> I’ve been flying with the beta version for several month and it works very well. This is also an opportunity to save by buying the powerflarm fusion in the discounted price of about $1500 which includes all licenses and save on the $160 license fee, then sell your old core when the price goes up.
> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 9:34:59 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Hi All - FLARM has announced release of firmware supporting ADS-R and
> > TIS-B reception. This feature is included in new firmware for Core
> > Fusion. For original PowerFLARM core and portable, this requires a
> > license available here:
> > https://flarm.com/shop/ads-r-and-tis-b-reception-adsr/
> >
> > Firmware is available here:
> > https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/download-firmware.
> >
> > Additional info about this feature here:
> > https://flarm.com/products/product-add-ons/ads-r-tis-b.
> >
> > Enjoy!
> > Best Regards, Dave

Ramy, do you have a Flarm B antenna, and if so, have you run the Flarm Range Analyzer on any of your flights with the Fusion? I'm curious to see how your coverage has improved.

Charlie

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 5:59:45 AM UTC-8, krasw wrote:
> On Tuesday, 19 January 2021 at 11:19:41 UTC+2, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > I'm not sure you really have much of an idea what you are saying.
> I think you are wrong. I know for a fact that my country can not do anything with mode-s data, infrastructure supports only mode-c.

And what exact country is this? Even if you manage to be in a European country with not a single Mode-S interrogator, you likely are covered by EUROCONTROL1090ES Out mandates, helping enable aircraft within your airspace to be able to utilize 1090ES for traffic awareness, and that should increasingly help complement FLARM use. The fundamental thing of ADS-B being *autonomous* and useful between aircraft without relying on interrogators or ground infrastructure got lost in the USA system. Nobody should want that in other countries, and so far no other country seems silly enough to follow that approach.

[Matt Herron Jr.]

Ramy;

I am curious to know what your experience with fusion is also. What is your antenna set-up? Range get better or worse? coverage get better or worse? Did you have the same antenna set-up with the core prior to fusion (so we can compare the two boxes)?

Thanks,

Matt H

[Charles Gillespie]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 4:33:47 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> Please remember that for ADS-R and TIS-B to work reliably your glider needs to be ADS-B Out equipped. That can be 2020 Compliant or TABS (but not say any old GPS providing position data to ADS-B Out with SIL=0) this allows the glider to be it a client of the ADS-R and TIS-B ground based services.. You also need to configure the ADS-B Out to describe that the glider/PowerFLARM can receive ADS-B data on 1090ES. Since we are talking almost excessively Trig transponders that means that on the Trig transponder ADS-B setup menu you set "1090ES In" to YES and "UAT In" to NO. (that's the way I've been encouraging folks to set this up anyhow... waiting for this day to come :-)).
>
> If your glider has ADS-B Out today and PowerFLARM this is something I would encourage you to just install over winter. If you fly near dense GA traffic (which may be more likely to be UAT Out or only transponder equipped) then this may be justification for upgrading to ADS-B Out to enable your glider to be a ADS-R and TIS-B client.... and also to ensure that hopefully much of that traffic can also see you.
>
> This update has been a significant amount of work from FLARM, to serve a relatively small customer base in the USA. And it's not trivial to implement, thanks Jerome and Urban at Flarm for doing the hard work here. Also thanks to folks in the USA who have test flow this over the last few months.
>
> Do you have ADS-R and TIS-B ADS-B ground service coverage near your gliderport? Or other busy traffic areas? You can start by lookin at the FAA ADS-B coverage maps in Google Earth: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace (the radar coverage info there will also give you an idea if you will see traffic via SSR/TIS-B).
> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 9:34:59 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Hi All - FLARM has announced release of firmware supporting ADS-R and
> > TIS-B reception. This feature is included in new firmware for Core
> > Fusion. For original PowerFLARM core and portable, this requires a
> > license available here:
> > https://flarm.com/shop/ads-r-and-tis-b-reception-adsr/
> >
> > Firmware is available here:
> > https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/download-firmware.
> >
> > Additional info about this feature here:
> > https://flarm.com/products/product-add-ons/ads-r-tis-b.
> >
> > Enjoy!
> > Best Regards, Dave

Darryl,
Is it correct to say that if you have Powerflarm and ADS-B Out, then there is no benefit to getting the ADSR license, as you're getting the UAT re-transmission into the 30nm hockey puck already?
Charlie

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 11:48:07 AM UTC-8, Charles Gillespie wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 4:33:47 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > Please remember that for ADS-R and TIS-B to work reliably your glider needs to be ADS-B Out equipped. That can be 2020 Compliant or TABS (but not say any old GPS providing position data to ADS-B Out with SIL=0) this allows the glider to be it a client of the ADS-R and TIS-B ground based services. You also need to configure the ADS-B Out to describe that the glider/PowerFLARM can receive ADS-B data on 1090ES. Since we are talking almost excessively Trig transponders that means that on the Trig transponder ADS-B setup menu you set "1090ES In" to YES and "UAT In" to NO. (that's the way I've been encouraging folks to set this up anyhow... waiting for this day to come :-)).
> >
> > If your glider has ADS-B Out today and PowerFLARM this is something I would encourage you to just install over winter. If you fly near dense GA traffic (which may be more likely to be UAT Out or only transponder equipped) then this may be justification for upgrading to ADS-B Out to enable your glider to be a ADS-R and TIS-B client.... and also to ensure that hopefully much of that traffic can also see you.
> >
> > This update has been a significant amount of work from FLARM, to serve a relatively small customer base in the USA. And it's not trivial to implement, thanks Jerome and Urban at Flarm for doing the hard work here. Also thanks to folks in the USA who have test flow this over the last few months.
> >
> > Do you have ADS-R and TIS-B ADS-B ground service coverage near your gliderport? Or other busy traffic areas? You can start by lookin at the FAA ADS-B coverage maps in Google Earth: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace (the radar coverage info there will also give you an idea if you will see traffic via SSR/TIS-B).
> > On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 9:34:59 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > Hi All - FLARM has announced release of firmware supporting ADS-R and
> > > TIS-B reception. This feature is included in new firmware for Core
> > > Fusion. For original PowerFLARM core and portable, this requires a
> > > license available here:
> > > https://flarm.com/shop/ads-r-and-tis-b-reception-adsr/
> > >
> > > Firmware is available here:
> > > https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/download-firmware.
> > >
> > > Additional info about this feature here:
> > > https://flarm.com/products/product-add-ons/ads-r-tis-b.
> > >
> > > Enjoy!
> > > Best Regards, Dave
> Darryl,
> Is it correct to say that if you have Powerflarm and ADS-B Out, then there is no benefit to getting the ADSR license, as you're getting the UAT re-transmission into the 30nm hockey puck already?
> Charlie

It's actually the opposite. If you have ADS-B Out, and configure it so you get ADS-R and TIS-B services (e.g. set up the ADS-B Out so it advertises your aircraft can receive ADS-B In on 1090ES) the PowerFLARM will still not decode the ADS-R and TIS-B messages. They are close to but different than a plain ADS-B direct message... which is why we are here in the first place with FLARM having to implement separate code to deal with those messages. If you have ADS-B Out already (2020 compliant or TABS) then you are the intended customer for this PowerFLARM ADS-R/TIS-B option.

[Charles Gillespie]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 3:23:05 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 11:48:07 AM UTC-8, Charles Gillespie wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 4:33:47 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > Please remember that for ADS-R and TIS-B to work reliably your glider needs to be ADS-B Out equipped. That can be 2020 Compliant or TABS (but not say any old GPS providing position data to ADS-B Out with SIL=0) this allows the glider to be it a client of the ADS-R and TIS-B ground based services. You also need to configure the ADS-B Out to describe that the glider/PowerFLARM can receive ADS-B data on 1090ES. Since we are talking almost excessively Trig transponders that means that on the Trig transponder ADS-B setup menu you set "1090ES In" to YES and "UAT In" to NO. (that's the way I've been encouraging folks to set this up anyhow... waiting for this day to come :-)).
> > >
> > > If your glider has ADS-B Out today and PowerFLARM this is something I would encourage you to just install over winter. If you fly near dense GA traffic (which may be more likely to be UAT Out or only transponder equipped) then this may be justification for upgrading to ADS-B Out to enable your glider to be a ADS-R and TIS-B client.... and also to ensure that hopefully much of that traffic can also see you.
> > >
> > > This update has been a significant amount of work from FLARM, to serve a relatively small customer base in the USA. And it's not trivial to implement, thanks Jerome and Urban at Flarm for doing the hard work here. Also thanks to folks in the USA who have test flow this over the last few months..
> > >
> > > Do you have ADS-R and TIS-B ADS-B ground service coverage near your gliderport? Or other busy traffic areas? You can start by lookin at the FAA ADS-B coverage maps in Google Earth: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace (the radar coverage info there will also give you an idea if you will see traffic via SSR/TIS-B).
> > > On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 9:34:59 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > Hi All - FLARM has announced release of firmware supporting ADS-R and
> > > > TIS-B reception. This feature is included in new firmware for Core
> > > > Fusion. For original PowerFLARM core and portable, this requires a
> > > > license available here:
> > > > https://flarm.com/shop/ads-r-and-tis-b-reception-adsr/
> > > >
> > > > Firmware is available here:
> > > > https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/download-firmware.
> > > >
> > > > Additional info about this feature here:
> > > > https://flarm.com/products/product-add-ons/ads-r-tis-b.
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy!
> > > > Best Regards, Dave
> > Darryl,
> > Is it correct to say that if you have Powerflarm and ADS-B Out, then there is no benefit to getting the ADSR license, as you're getting the UAT re-transmission into the 30nm hockey puck already?
> > Charlie
> It's actually the opposite. If you have ADS-B Out, and configure it so you get ADS-R and TIS-B services (e.g. set up the ADS-B Out so it advertises your aircraft can receive ADS-B In on 1090ES) the PowerFLARM will still not decode the ADS-R and TIS-B messages. They are close to but different than a plain ADS-B direct message... which is why we are here in the first place with FLARM having to implement separate code to deal with those messages. If you have ADS-B Out already (2020 compliant or TABS) then you are the intended customer for this PowerFLARM ADS-R/TIS-B option.

So to be clear, a Powerflarm with 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out is not really a client of ADS-R and TIS-B ground-based services unless it also has the ADSR license to decode this information, true? Thanks for your insight.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 2:44:21 PM UTC-8, Charles Gillespie wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 3:23:05 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 11:48:07 AM UTC-8, Charles Gillespie wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 4:33:47 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > Please remember that for ADS-R and TIS-B to work reliably your glider needs to be ADS-B Out equipped. That can be 2020 Compliant or TABS (but not say any old GPS providing position data to ADS-B Out with SIL=0) this allows the glider to be it a client of the ADS-R and TIS-B ground based services. You also need to configure the ADS-B Out to describe that the glider/PowerFLARM can receive ADS-B data on 1090ES. Since we are talking almost excessively Trig transponders that means that on the Trig transponder ADS-B setup menu you set "1090ES In" to YES and "UAT In" to NO. (that's the way I've been encouraging folks to set this up anyhow... waiting for this day to come :-)).
> > > >
> > > > If your glider has ADS-B Out today and PowerFLARM this is something I would encourage you to just install over winter. If you fly near dense GA traffic (which may be more likely to be UAT Out or only transponder equipped) then this may be justification for upgrading to ADS-B Out to enable your glider to be a ADS-R and TIS-B client.... and also to ensure that hopefully much of that traffic can also see you.
> > > >
> > > > This update has been a significant amount of work from FLARM, to serve a relatively small customer base in the USA. And it's not trivial to implement, thanks Jerome and Urban at Flarm for doing the hard work here. Also thanks to folks in the USA who have test flow this over the last few months.
> > > >
> > > > Do you have ADS-R and TIS-B ADS-B ground service coverage near your gliderport? Or other busy traffic areas? You can start by lookin at the FAA ADS-B coverage maps in Google Earth: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace (the radar coverage info there will also give you an idea if you will see traffic via SSR/TIS-B).
> > > > On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 9:34:59 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > > Hi All - FLARM has announced release of firmware supporting ADS-R and
> > > > > TIS-B reception. This feature is included in new firmware for Core
> > > > > Fusion. For original PowerFLARM core and portable, this requires a
> > > > > license available here:
> > > > > https://flarm.com/shop/ads-r-and-tis-b-reception-adsr/
> > > > >
> > > > > Firmware is available here:
> > > > > https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/download-firmware.
> > > > >
> > > > > Additional info about this feature here:
> > > > > https://flarm.com/products/product-add-ons/ads-r-tis-b.
> > > > >
> > > > > Enjoy!
> > > > > Best Regards, Dave
> > > Darryl,
> > > Is it correct to say that if you have Powerflarm and ADS-B Out, then there is no benefit to getting the ADSR license, as you're getting the UAT re-transmission into the 30nm hockey puck already?
> > > Charlie
> > It's actually the opposite. If you have ADS-B Out, and configure it so you get ADS-R and TIS-B services (e.g. set up the ADS-B Out so it advertises your aircraft can receive ADS-B In on 1090ES) the PowerFLARM will still not decode the ADS-R and TIS-B messages. They are close to but different than a plain ADS-B direct message... which is why we are here in the first place with FLARM having to implement separate code to deal with those messages.. If you have ADS-B Out already (2020 compliant or TABS) then you are the intended customer for this PowerFLARM ADS-R/TIS-B option.
> So to be clear, a Powerflarm with 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out is not really a client of ADS-R and TIS-B ground-based services unless it also has the ADSR license to decode this information, true? Thanks for your insight.

Uh lets be precise/careful with this technical language. An aircraft is a client when the ground system thinks it is and is transmitting ADS-R or TIS-B data for it. Whether your PowerFLARM can decode ADS-R or TIS-B nothing on the ground can tell. All the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure has to rely on is the aircraft position data, some information about the GPS fix quality/accuracy (i.e. if they fall below a certain level the ground system stops treating you as a client) and the capability code bits set in the ADS-B Out system that describe what ADS-B In link layer(s) the aircraft has. And I've been encouraging everybody to set "1090ES Out" ==YES in the Trig ADS-B Out setups... ready for the day we have TIS-B/ADS-R support. So I'd hazard a guess that almost all gliders flying with 1090ES Out today are frequent ADS-R and TIS-B clients but it makes no difference if you can't actually decode those messages. BTW you can actually see the % flight time your aircraft was a TIS-B client in the FAA PAPR report.

[Charles Gillespie]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 4:07:23 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 2:44:21 PM UTC-8, Charles Gillespie wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 3:23:05 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 11:48:07 AM UTC-8, Charles Gillespie wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 4:33:47 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > > Please remember that for ADS-R and TIS-B to work reliably your glider needs to be ADS-B Out equipped. That can be 2020 Compliant or TABS (but not say any old GPS providing position data to ADS-B Out with SIL=0) this allows the glider to be it a client of the ADS-R and TIS-B ground based services. You also need to configure the ADS-B Out to describe that the glider/PowerFLARM can receive ADS-B data on 1090ES. Since we are talking almost excessively Trig transponders that means that on the Trig transponder ADS-B setup menu you set "1090ES In" to YES and "UAT In" to NO. (that's the way I've been encouraging folks to set this up anyhow... waiting for this day to come :-)).
> > > > >
> > > > > If your glider has ADS-B Out today and PowerFLARM this is something I would encourage you to just install over winter. If you fly near dense GA traffic (which may be more likely to be UAT Out or only transponder equipped) then this may be justification for upgrading to ADS-B Out to enable your glider to be a ADS-R and TIS-B client.... and also to ensure that hopefully much of that traffic can also see you.
> > > > >
> > > > > This update has been a significant amount of work from FLARM, to serve a relatively small customer base in the USA. And it's not trivial to implement, thanks Jerome and Urban at Flarm for doing the hard work here. Also thanks to folks in the USA who have test flow this over the last few months.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you have ADS-R and TIS-B ADS-B ground service coverage near your gliderport? Or other busy traffic areas? You can start by lookin at the FAA ADS-B coverage maps in Google Earth: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace (the radar coverage info there will also give you an idea if you will see traffic via SSR/TIS-B).
> > > > > On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 9:34:59 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > > > Hi All - FLARM has announced release of firmware supporting ADS-R and
> > > > > > TIS-B reception. This feature is included in new firmware for Core
> > > > > > Fusion. For original PowerFLARM core and portable, this requires a
> > > > > > license available here:
> > > > > > https://flarm.com/shop/ads-r-and-tis-b-reception-adsr/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Firmware is available here:
> > > > > > https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/download-firmware.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Additional info about this feature here:
> > > > > > https://flarm.com/products/product-add-ons/ads-r-tis-b.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Enjoy!
> > > > > > Best Regards, Dave
> > > > Darryl,
> > > > Is it correct to say that if you have Powerflarm and ADS-B Out, then there is no benefit to getting the ADSR license, as you're getting the UAT re-transmission into the 30nm hockey puck already?
> > > > Charlie
> > > It's actually the opposite. If you have ADS-B Out, and configure it so you get ADS-R and TIS-B services (e.g. set up the ADS-B Out so it advertises your aircraft can receive ADS-B In on 1090ES) the PowerFLARM will still not decode the ADS-R and TIS-B messages. They are close to but different than a plain ADS-B direct message... which is why we are here in the first place with FLARM having to implement separate code to deal with those messages. If you have ADS-B Out already (2020 compliant or TABS) then you are the intended customer for this PowerFLARM ADS-R/TIS-B option.
> > So to be clear, a Powerflarm with 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out is not really a client of ADS-R and TIS-B ground-based services unless it also has the ADSR license to decode this information, true? Thanks for your insight.
> Uh lets be precise/careful with this technical language. An aircraft is a client when the ground system thinks it is and is transmitting ADS-R or TIS-B data for it. Whether your PowerFLARM can decode ADS-R or TIS-B nothing on the ground can tell. All the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure has to rely on is the aircraft position data, some information about the GPS fix quality/accuracy (i.e. if they fall below a certain level the ground system stops treating you as a client) and the capability code bits set in the ADS-B Out system that describe what ADS-B In link layer(s) the aircraft has. And I've been encouraging everybody to set "1090ES Out" ==YES in the Trig ADS-B Out setups... ready for the day we have TIS-B/ADS-R support. So I'd hazard a guess that almost all gliders flying with 1090ES Out today are frequent ADS-R and TIS-B clients but it makes no difference if you can't actually decode those messages. BTW you can actually see the % flight time your aircraft was a TIS-B client in the FAA PAPR report.

My PAPR shows that I was a TIS-B Client for 96.4% of the flight. Does that mean I had the hockey puck for that % of the flight?

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 3:42:22 PM UTC-8, Charles Gillespie wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 4:07:23 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 2:44:21 PM UTC-8, Charles Gillespie wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 3:23:05 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 11:48:07 AM UTC-8, Charles Gillespie wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 4:33:47 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > > > Please remember that for ADS-R and TIS-B to work reliably your glider needs to be ADS-B Out equipped. That can be 2020 Compliant or TABS (but not say any old GPS providing position data to ADS-B Out with SIL=0) this allows the glider to be it a client of the ADS-R and TIS-B ground based services. You also need to configure the ADS-B Out to describe that the glider/PowerFLARM can receive ADS-B data on 1090ES. Since we are talking almost excessively Trig transponders that means that on the Trig transponder ADS-B setup menu you set "1090ES In" to YES and "UAT In" to NO. (that's the way I've been encouraging folks to set this up anyhow... waiting for this day to come :-)).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If your glider has ADS-B Out today and PowerFLARM this is something I would encourage you to just install over winter. If you fly near dense GA traffic (which may be more likely to be UAT Out or only transponder equipped) then this may be justification for upgrading to ADS-B Out to enable your glider to be a ADS-R and TIS-B client.... and also to ensure that hopefully much of that traffic can also see you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This update has been a significant amount of work from FLARM, to serve a relatively small customer base in the USA. And it's not trivial to implement, thanks Jerome and Urban at Flarm for doing the hard work here. Also thanks to folks in the USA who have test flow this over the last few months.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you have ADS-R and TIS-B ADS-B ground service coverage near your gliderport? Or other busy traffic areas? You can start by lookin at the FAA ADS-B coverage maps in Google Earth: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace (the radar coverage info there will also give you an idea if you will see traffic via SSR/TIS-B).
> > > > > > On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 9:34:59 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi All - FLARM has announced release of firmware supporting ADS-R and
> > > > > > > TIS-B reception. This feature is included in new firmware for Core
> > > > > > > Fusion. For original PowerFLARM core and portable, this requires a
> > > > > > > license available here:
> > > > > > > https://flarm.com/shop/ads-r-and-tis-b-reception-adsr/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Firmware is available here:
> > > > > > > https://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/download-firmware.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Additional info about this feature here:
> > > > > > > https://flarm.com/products/product-add-ons/ads-r-tis-b.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Enjoy!
> > > > > > > Best Regards, Dave
> > > > > Darryl,
> > > > > Is it correct to say that if you have Powerflarm and ADS-B Out, then there is no benefit to getting the ADSR license, as you're getting the UAT re-transmission into the 30nm hockey puck already?
> > > > > Charlie
> > > > It's actually the opposite. If you have ADS-B Out, and configure it so you get ADS-R and TIS-B services (e.g. set up the ADS-B Out so it advertises your aircraft can receive ADS-B In on 1090ES) the PowerFLARM will still not decode the ADS-R and TIS-B messages. They are close to but different than a plain ADS-B direct message... which is why we are here in the first place with FLARM having to implement separate code to deal with those messages. If you have ADS-B Out already (2020 compliant or TABS) then you are the intended customer for this PowerFLARM ADS-R/TIS-B option.
> > > So to be clear, a Powerflarm with 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out is not really a client of ADS-R and TIS-B ground-based services unless it also has the ADSR license to decode this information, true? Thanks for your insight.
> > Uh lets be precise/careful with this technical language. An aircraft is a client when the ground system thinks it is and is transmitting ADS-R or TIS-B data for it. Whether your PowerFLARM can decode ADS-R or TIS-B nothing on the ground can tell. All the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure has to rely on is the aircraft position data, some information about the GPS fix quality/accuracy (i.e. if they fall below a certain level the ground system stops treating you as a client) and the capability code bits set in the ADS-B Out system that describe what ADS-B In link layer(s) the aircraft has. And I've been encouraging everybody to set "1090ES Out" ==YES in the Trig ADS-B Out setups... ready for the day we have TIS-B/ADS-R support. So I'd hazard a guess that almost all gliders flying with 1090ES Out today are frequent ADS-R and TIS-B clients but it makes no difference if you can't actually decode those messages. BTW you can actually see the % flight time your aircraft was a TIS-B client in the FAA PAPR report.
> My PAPR shows that I was a TIS-B Client for 96.4% of the flight. Does that mean I had the hockey puck for that % of the flight?

Yes. That is impressive coverage... I would want to get that ADS-R/TIS-B option.

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-8, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> Ramy;
>
> I am curious to know what your experience with fusion is also. What is your antenna set-up? Range get better or worse? coverage get better or worse? Did you have the same antenna set-up with the core prior to fusion (so we can compare the two boxes)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt H

Matt, Charles, I wasn’t clear. I meant I was flying with the beta version of core with TIS-B and ADS-R before it was released last week. I don’t have the Fusion unit (yet). I am seriously considering it.


Ramy

[Ramy[_2_]]

I assume TIS-B is not available in Europe otherwise wouldn’t it be beneficial also in Europe to rebroadcast non ADS-B transponder equipped aircraft like gliders? Or in Europe there are no exceptions so all gliders have ADS-B? Otherwise there is an advantage to the US TIS-B as we can now see most gliders which are only equipped with transponders.

Ramy

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 6:12:27 AM UTC-8, Urban Mäder wrote:
> On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 8:23:00 AM UTC+1, wrote:
> > Moshe,
> >
> > Only TIS-B has position uncertainty from the imprecision of SSR, which varies with the distance from the radar station. Both ADS-R and TIS-B have some position error from delay introduced by the reception-processing-rebroadcast sequence. ADS-B is not designed for close proximity collision warning - it's more a traffic separation tool - 5 miles and 1000 feet. I believe you can get ADS-R/TIS-B traffic alerts at, say, 1 mile, depending on on your display.
> Yes. We will try enabling traffic alerts for ADS-R, but I'm a bit reluctant since correctly detecting tow trains may be hard, given the (uncertain) time delay.
>
> Honestly, the dual-ADS-B setup in the US - of which ADS-R/TIS-B is the consequence - is a surprisingly complex beast. We're thus happy to hear your feedback, preferably with IGC log files sent along to .
>
> Thanks
> - Urban

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 10:53:27 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> I assume TIS-B is not available in Europe otherwise wouldn’t it be beneficial also in Europe to rebroadcast non ADS-B transponder equipped aircraft like gliders? Or in Europe there are no exceptions so all gliders have ADS-B? Otherwise there is an advantage to the US TIS-B as we can now see most gliders which are only equipped with transponders.

Yo Ramy

(I know I'm not going to do this justice in one paragraph, but here goes). A glider type exemption for ADS-B does not really apply. European mandatory ADS-B Out carriage mandates have been more focused on IFR traffic and larger aircraft. Europe has had a different approach than the USA. It's favored what I'd see as a more structured methodical move to Mode-S and ADS-B/1090ES Out. If everybody, or at least folks in busy airspace eventually end up with ADS-B Out you maybe don't need TIS-B. But Europe has also dragged their feet in some areas. All that complex infrastructure to rebroadcast SSR as TIS-B is a significant undertaking and extra complex when you have multiple nations involved. And EUROCONTROL and SESAR and all the collaborating nations have had other priorities. TIS-B for example does not directly help increase controlled airspace utilization/density of airline flights, and wether right or wrong the airline requirements drive much of the planning in Europe, as they also did in the USA. But in the USA TIS-B (and FIS-B and continuation of Mode-C transponder use) was sold by the FAA in part to appease the GA political lobby and seen as an inducement to get folks to folks to adopt ADS-B Out... which will then enable it's use in NEXTGEN to help the airlines. I'm not sure all that political appeasement actually resulted in the best overall system. EUROCONTROL member nations prioritized adoption of Mode-S and Mode-S enhanced surveleice (Google it) to help increase airline safety and density while the USA went with "Mode-S lite" and skipped to a dual link ADS-B system.

TIS-B has been played with by European researchers so folks there sure understand the technology. Some of the Thales (currently 1090ES) ADS-B ground stations deployed in Europe should be very UAT Out/FIS-B compatible. Currently it looks like SESAR (kind of the European version of Mitre Corp.) is looking at a FIS-B like system maybe combined with some TIS-B like capability (I've not kept up) using entirely different (cellular?) frequency bands and aimed at portable devices in GA aircraft. There is a long running differences between the USA and Europe around other data uplink approaches/standards so don't expect everybody to agree on this stuff :-) (but I'd hope Europe looks hard at FIS-B over UAT).

If the future includes a lot of drones/UAVs then surveillance and traffic awareness for them may cause challenges here, all these existing systems were just not designed for that and it's going to need to affect what happens in future.

> Ramy
> On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 6:12:27 AM UTC-8, Urban Mäder wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 8:23:00 AM UTC+1, wrote:
> > > Moshe,
> > >
> > > Only TIS-B has position uncertainty from the imprecision of SSR, which varies with the distance from the radar station. Both ADS-R and TIS-B have some position error from delay introduced by the reception-processing-rebroadcast sequence. ADS-B is not designed for close proximity collision warning - it's more a traffic separation tool - 5 miles and 1000 feet. I believe you can get ADS-R/TIS-B traffic alerts at, say, 1 mile, depending on on your display.
> > Yes. We will try enabling traffic alerts for ADS-R, but I'm a bit reluctant since correctly detecting tow trains may be hard, given the (uncertain) time delay.
> >
> > Honestly, the dual-ADS-B setup in the US - of which ADS-R/TIS-B is the consequence - is a surprisingly complex beast. We're thus happy to hear your feedback, preferably with IGC log files sent along to .
> >
> > Thanks
> > - Urban

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 10:44:42 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-8, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > Ramy;
> >
> > I am curious to know what your experience with fusion is also. What is your antenna set-up? Range get better or worse? coverage get better or worse? Did you have the same antenna set-up with the core prior to fusion (so we can compare the two boxes)?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Matt H
> Matt, Charles, I wasn’t clear. I meant I was flying with the beta version of core with TIS-B and ADS-R before it was released last week. I don’t have the Fusion unit (yet). I am seriously considering it.
>
>
> Ramy

I am considering upgrading to Fusion. If anyone is interested in my powerflarm core which includes all licenses including the new TIS-B/ADS-R for $1000 plus shipping please let me know.

Ramy

[Bob Caldwell (BC)]

On Thursday, January 21, 2021 at 3:22:40 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 10:44:42 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-8, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > > Ramy;
> > >
> > > I am curious to know what your experience with fusion is also. What is your antenna set-up? Range get better or worse? coverage get better or worse? Did you have the same antenna set-up with the core prior to fusion (so we can compare the two boxes)?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Matt H
> > Matt, Charles, I wasn’t clear. I meant I was flying with the beta version of core with TIS-B and ADS-R before it was released last week. I don’t have the Fusion unit (yet). I am seriously considering it.
> >
> >
> > Ramy
> I am considering upgrading to Fusion. If anyone is interested in my powerflarm core which includes all licenses including the new TIS-B/ADS-R for $1000 plus shipping please let me know.
>
> Ramy
Has anyone tried the 7.03 Beta version which enables alerts associated with UAT targets?

[Steve Koerner]

So, with this upgrade to PowerFlarm and LX Nav computer, am I likely then to start seeing the Air Force fighter jets that permeate the sailplane MOAs in Arizona? (tongue in cheek ideology there)

[Ramy[_2_]]

Some folks who installed the new license in a glider with only mode C transponder are reporting seeing “ghosting” of their own glider. This is expected when you don’t have ADS-B out.
You may or may not notice this issue, it is a combination of multiple things, mainly which transponder you have, your flarm display configuration, and how much experience you have with flarm. For example you may want to disable zoom to nearest if you have the ghosting issue and use manual zoom instead (my recomendation is to set it manually to 1-2 miles)
However if you still find it distracting, you can completely disable TIS-B. You will still benefit from ADS-R which relays UAT aircrafts (about half of GA aircrafts?) but you will not benefit from TIS-B which relays transponder only aircrafts (e.g. gliders without powerflarm).
To disable TIS-B (only relevant to those who purchased and installed the new license or purchased the new Powerflarm Fusion):
If you use the online configuration tool: https://flarm.com/support/tools-software/flarm-configuration-tool, in advanced mode under "Rebroadcast Services" select "ADS-R Only".
If you use text editor, just add/update the following line in your config file:
$PFLAC,S,REBROADCASTSERVICES

Ramy

On Saturday, January 23, 2021 at 2:45:30 PM UTC-8, Bob Caldwell (BC) wrote:
> On Thursday, January 21, 2021 at 3:22:40 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 10:44:42 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 19, 2021 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-8, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > > > Ramy;
> > > >
> > > > I am curious to know what your experience with fusion is also. What is your antenna set-up? Range get better or worse? coverage get better or worse? Did you have the same antenna set-up with the core prior to fusion (so we can compare the two boxes)?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Matt H
> > > Matt, Charles, I wasn’t clear. I meant I was flying with the beta version of core with TIS-B and ADS-R before it was released last week. I don’t have the Fusion unit (yet). I am seriously considering it.
> > >
> > >
> > > Ramy
> > I am considering upgrading to Fusion. If anyone is interested in my powerflarm core which includes all licenses including the new TIS-B/ADS-R for $1000 plus shipping please let me know.
> >
> > Ramy
> Has anyone tried the 7.03 Beta version which enables alerts associated with UAT targets?