soaring on Mars?

[Moshe Braner]

If there are dust devils there is lift!
https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/a-nasa-photo-celebration-of-curiosity-rovers-3000th-day/

[AS]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 9:16:55 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
> If there are dust devils there is lift!
> https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/a-nasa-photo-celebration-of-curiosity-rovers-3000th-day/

Agreed but the 'air' pressure on Mars is around 6mb vs. 1013.25mb (0.1771 inHg vs. 29.92 inHg), so the wing design and speeds at which said wing will have to move to produce lift will be dramatically different compared to what we are used to.

Uli
'AS'

[John Good]

20-some years ago, AeroVironment proposed a glider for Mars photography. They got as far as testing a model, as shown in this short video:
www.airspacemag.com/videos/category/space-exploration/testing-a-mars-airplane_1/

[Airport Bum]

Retrieves would be challenging....

Cheers,
Jim J6

On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 9:37:26 PM UTC-6, John Good wrote:
> 20-some years ago, AeroVironment proposed a glider for Mars photography. They got as far as testing a model, as shown in this short video:
> www.airspacemag.com/videos/category/space-exploration/testing-a-mars-airplane_1/

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 19:37:23 -0800, John Good wrote:

> 20-some years ago, AeroVironment proposed a glider for Mars photography.
> They got as far as testing a model, as shown in this short video:
> www.airspacemag.com/videos/category/space-exploration/testing-a-mars-
airplane_1/

Around the same time Aurora tested a marsplane: this one was a bit bigger
and was designed to fold up to fit one of the standard aeroshells. It was
tested at around 100,000 ft, where air pressure is similar to Martian
ground level, by drolling it from a high altutude balool launched from
Hawaii. I remember talking about it with Bob Parks, who was the Aurora
project member when ARES was being set up and flew it for the high
altitude tests. He joked that if he'd been on the ball he could have
claimed a near-unbeatable FAI speed record when he was flying back to the
islands after a test - he reckoned it had hit around 500 mph early in the
return leg when still very high up.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/news/researchernews/rn_ARES.htmls://
media.xconomy.com/wordpress/wp-content/images/2007/10/062

https://www.spacedaily.com/news/
marsplane-02b.html15133/1491665020_1004ad04ee.jpg



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

As any true aviator (helicopter pilot) knows the first flight on another world will be by the premier of all aircraft, the helicopter.
Mankind's magic carpet.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/science/mars-helicopter-nasa.html

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:00:42 AM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 19:37:23 -0800, John Good wrote:
>
> > 20-some years ago, AeroVironment proposed a glider for Mars photography.
> > They got as far as testing a model, as shown in this short video:
> > www.airspacemag.com/videos/category/space-exploration/testing-a-mars-
> airplane_1/
> Around the same time Aurora tested a marsplane: this one was a bit bigger
> and was designed to fold up to fit one of the standard aeroshells. It was
> tested at around 100,000 ft, where air pressure is similar to Martian
> ground level, by drolling it from a high altutude balool launched from
> Hawaii. I remember talking about it with Bob Parks, who was the Aurora
> project member when ARES was being set up and flew it for the high
> altitude tests. He joked that if he'd been on the ball he could have
> claimed a near-unbeatable FAI speed record when he was flying back to the
> islands after a test - he reckoned it had hit around 500 mph early in the
> return leg when still very high up.
>
> https://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/news/researchernews/rn_ARES.htmls://
> media.xconomy.com/wordpress/wp-content/images/2007/10/062
>
> https://www.spacedaily.com/news/
> marsplane-02b.html15133/1491665020_1004ad04ee.jpg
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 16:13:49 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> As any true aviator (helicopter pilot) knows the first flight on another
> world will be by the premier of all aircraft, the helicopter.
>
> Mankind's magic carpet.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/science/mars-helicopter-nasa.html
>
Yep, heard about it, but thanks for posting that URL. It will be
interesting to see how well it does on RealMars (TM). In Martian
conditions a helicopter makes more sense than a powered plane or glider
because it should have a much lower landing speed.

BTW, the Aurora ARES design had an inverted V tail on twin booms to keep
the stabiliser clear of exhaust from a rocket unit mounted on the centre
line at the wing's TE) - a common design in the S-8P rocket glider RC
competition class which, oddly enough, Bob Parks competes in with his own-
design models.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[5Z]

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 5:48:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 1/15/21 6:39 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 16:13:49 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> >
> >> As any true aviator (helicopter pilot) knows the first flight on another
> >> world will be by the premier of all aircraft, the helicopter.
> >>
> >> Mankind's magic carpet.
> >> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/science/mars-helicopter-nasa.html
> >>
> > Yep, heard about it, but thanks for posting that URL. It will be
> > interesting to see how well it does on RealMars (TM). In Martian
> > conditions a helicopter makes more sense than a powered plane or glider
> > because it should have a much lower landing speed.
> >
> > BTW, the Aurora ARES design had an inverted V tail on twin booms to keep
> > the stabiliser clear of exhaust from a rocket unit mounted on the centre
> > line at the wing's TE) - a common design in the S-8P rocket glider RC
> > competition class which, oddly enough, Bob Parks competes in with his own-
> > design models.
> >
> >
> What helicopter can fly at 100,000' (the air density in the Martian
> atmosphere)? If there is one, I'd like to know about the rotor design
> as my gyro plane can't get much above 10,000'. Oh yeah, it'll have to
> carry its own oxygen for combustion unless it's going to get really exotic.

Well Dan, if you read the article, you'll see:

"About 20 years ago, it couldn’t have been possible, really, because of the math,” said Ms. Aung who was a deputy manager of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory’s autonomous systems division before joining the Mars project.

But a number of advances, such as miniaturization of electronics, batteries that stored more energy and materials that could be shaped into lightweight blades, had finally made the dream of Mars flying machines into a technological possibility, Ms. Aung said.

[Dan Marotta]

On 1/15/21 7:43 PM, 5Z wrote:
> On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 5:48:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> On 1/15/21 6:39 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 16:13:49 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>>>
>>>> As any true aviator (helicopter pilot) knows the first flight on another
>>>> world will be by the premier of all aircraft, the helicopter.
>>>>
>>>> Mankind's magic carpet.
>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/science/mars-helicopter-nasa.html
>>>>
>>> Yep, heard about it, but thanks for posting that URL. It will be
>>> interesting to see how well it does on RealMars (TM). In Martian
>>> conditions a helicopter makes more sense than a powered plane or glider
>>> because it should have a much lower landing speed.
>>>
>>> BTW, the Aurora ARES design had an inverted V tail on twin booms to keep
>>> the stabiliser clear of exhaust from a rocket unit mounted on the centre
>>> line at the wing's TE) - a common design in the S-8P rocket glider RC
>>> competition class which, oddly enough, Bob Parks competes in with his own-
>>> design models.
>>>
>>>
>> What helicopter can fly at 100,000' (the air density in the Martian
>> atmosphere)? If there is one, I'd like to know about the rotor design
>> as my gyro plane can't get much above 10,000'. Oh yeah, it'll have to
>> carry its own oxygen for combustion unless it's going to get really exotic.
>
> Well Dan, if you read the article, you'll see:
>
> "About 20 years ago, it couldn’t have been possible, really, because of the math,” said Ms. Aung who was a deputy manager of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory’s autonomous systems division before joining the Mars project.
>
> But a number of advances, such as miniaturization of electronics, batteries that stored more energy and materials that could be shaped into lightweight blades, had finally made the dream of Mars flying machines into a technological possibility, Ms. Aung said.
>

Well Tom, I guess I've got a lot of reading to do.

Do you remember Joe Berger? I believe he submitted a proposal for a
fold up glider for the Mars project. Wonder what ever became of it/him.

--
Dan
5J

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 08:40:46 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

> On 1/15/21 7:43 PM, 5Z wrote:
>> On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 5:48:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> On 1/15/21 6:39 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 16:13:49 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As any true aviator (helicopter pilot) knows the first flight on
>>>>> another world will be by the premier of all aircraft, the
>>>>> helicopter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mankind's magic carpet.
>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/science/mars-helicopter-nasa.html
>>>>>
>>>> Yep, heard about it, but thanks for posting that URL. It will be
>>>> interesting to see how well it does on RealMars (TM). In Martian
>>>> conditions a helicopter makes more sense than a powered plane or
>>>> glider because it should have a much lower landing speed.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, the Aurora ARES design had an inverted V tail on twin booms to
>>>> keep the stabiliser clear of exhaust from a rocket unit mounted on
>>>> the centre line at the wing's TE) - a common design in the S-8P
>>>> rocket glider RC competition class which, oddly enough, Bob Parks
>>>> competes in with his own-
>>>> design models.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> What helicopter can fly at 100,000' (the air density in the Martian
>>> atmosphere)? If there is one, I'd like to know about the rotor design
>>> as my gyro plane can't get much above 10,000'. Oh yeah, it'll have to
>>> carry its own oxygen for combustion unless it's going to get really
>>> exotic.
>>
>> Well Dan, if you read the article, you'll see:
>>
>> "About 20 years ago, it couldn’t have been possible, really, because of
>> the math,” said Ms. Aung who was a deputy manager of the Jet Propulsion
>> Laboratory’s autonomous systems division before joining the Mars
>> project.
>>
>> But a number of advances, such as miniaturization of electronics,
>> batteries that stored more energy and materials that could be shaped
>> into lightweight blades, had finally made the dream of Mars flying
>> machines into a technological possibility, Ms. Aung said.
>>
>>
> Well Tom, I guess I've got a lot of reading to do.
>
> Do you remember Joe Berger? I believe he submitted a proposal for a
> fold up glider for the Mars project. Wonder what ever became of it/him.

IIRC one of those even made it to the stage of a half-scale test version
-that's the one Aurora made and dropped from a balloon at 100,000 ft. It
looked a little like a DH Vampire: the real thing would have had rocket
propulsion, hence the twin booms and inverted V tail: the rocket was at
the rear of the wing centre section:

https://www.spacedaily.com/news/marsplane-02b.html





--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

All you fixed wing weenies seemed to have glossed over the the fact that the first (heavier that "air") aircraft to fly on another planet will be the helicopter. On this planet it was the Wright 1902 glider.
Imagine the 3rd generation of first flights.
On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 7:40:50 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 1/15/21 7:43 PM, 5Z wrote:
> > On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 5:48:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> On 1/15/21 6:39 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 16:13:49 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> As any true aviator (helicopter pilot) knows the first flight on another
> >>>> world will be by the premier of all aircraft, the helicopter.
> >>>>
> >>>> Mankind's magic carpet.
> >>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/science/mars-helicopter-nasa.html
> >>>>
> >>> Yep, heard about it, but thanks for posting that URL. It will be
> >>> interesting to see how well it does on RealMars (TM). In Martian
> >>> conditions a helicopter makes more sense than a powered plane or glider
> >>> because it should have a much lower landing speed.
> >>>
> >>> BTW, the Aurora ARES design had an inverted V tail on twin booms to keep
> >>> the stabiliser clear of exhaust from a rocket unit mounted on the centre
> >>> line at the wing's TE) - a common design in the S-8P rocket glider RC
> >>> competition class which, oddly enough, Bob Parks competes in with his own-
> >>> design models.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> What helicopter can fly at 100,000' (the air density in the Martian
> >> atmosphere)? If there is one, I'd like to know about the rotor design
> >> as my gyro plane can't get much above 10,000'. Oh yeah, it'll have to
> >> carry its own oxygen for combustion unless it's going to get really exotic.
> >
> > Well Dan, if you read the article, you'll see:
> >
> > "About 20 years ago, it couldn’t have been possible, really, because of the math,” said Ms. Aung who was a deputy manager of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory’s autonomous systems division before joining the Mars project.
> >
> > But a number of advances, such as miniaturization of electronics, batteries that stored more energy and materials that could be shaped into lightweight blades, had finally made the dream of Mars flying machines into a technological possibility, Ms. Aung said.
> >
> Well Tom, I guess I've got a lot of reading to do.
>
> Do you remember Joe Berger? I believe he submitted a proposal for a
> fold up glider for the Mars project. Wonder what ever became of it/him.
>
> --
> Dan
> 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Highest I could find was the Mil Mi-8 at 30,000'. The air at 30,000' on
Earth is a lot thicker than on Mars at any altitude. So, how can it be
done with a helicopter?

On 1/17/21 11:02 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> All you fixed wing weenies seemed to have glossed over the the fact that the first (heavier that "air") aircraft to fly on another planet will be the helicopter. On this planet it was the Wright 1902 glider.
> Imagine the 3rd generation of first flights.
> On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 7:40:50 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> On 1/15/21 7:43 PM, 5Z wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 5:48:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> On 1/15/21 6:39 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 16:13:49 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As any true aviator (helicopter pilot) knows the first flight on another
>>>>>> world will be by the premier of all aircraft, the helicopter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mankind's magic carpet.
>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/science/mars-helicopter-nasa.html
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, heard about it, but thanks for posting that URL. It will be
>>>>> interesting to see how well it does on RealMars (TM). In Martian
>>>>> conditions a helicopter makes more sense than a powered plane or glider
>>>>> because it should have a much lower landing speed.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, the Aurora ARES design had an inverted V tail on twin booms to keep
>>>>> the stabiliser clear of exhaust from a rocket unit mounted on the centre
>>>>> line at the wing's TE) - a common design in the S-8P rocket glider RC
>>>>> competition class which, oddly enough, Bob Parks competes in with his own-
>>>>> design models.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> What helicopter can fly at 100,000' (the air density in the Martian
>>>> atmosphere)? If there is one, I'd like to know about the rotor design
>>>> as my gyro plane can't get much above 10,000'. Oh yeah, it'll have to
>>>> carry its own oxygen for combustion unless it's going to get really exotic.
>>>
>>> Well Dan, if you read the article, you'll see:
>>>
>>> "About 20 years ago, it couldn’t have been possible, really, because of the math,” said Ms. Aung who was a deputy manager of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory’s autonomous systems division before joining the Mars project.
>>>
>>> But a number of advances, such as miniaturization of electronics, batteries that stored more energy and materials that could be shaped into lightweight blades, had finally made the dream of Mars flying machines into a technological possibility, Ms. Aung said.
>>>
>> Well Tom, I guess I've got a lot of reading to do.
>>
>> Do you remember Joe Berger? I believe he submitted a proposal for a
>> fold up glider for the Mars project. Wonder what ever became of it/him.
>>
>> --
>> Dan
>> 5J


--
Dan
5J

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 12:56:41 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Highest I could find was the Mil Mi-8 at 30,000'. The air at 30,000' on
> Earth is a lot thicker than on Mars at any altitude. So, how can it be
> done with a helicopter?
>

'Simplicate and add lightness' (wish I knew who first said that).

Judging be the look of the Mars Helicopter that will be carried by the
Mars 2020 mission's rover, that's pretty much exactly what they did: it
has a single rotor shaft supporting a pair of contra-rotating two-blade
rotors. Its electric powwred, but with a relatively small battery and, to
keep it chanrged, a set of photocells mounted on top of the rotor mast.

https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/

Well, only 31 days until it lands on Mars and, since the plot is to fly
the chopper before the rover goes off exploring the crater it should land
in, we haven't long to wait before we see if it can fly.



--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dan Marotta]

Sounds terrific!

'Simplicate and add lightness' (wish I knew who first said that). It
was Orville (or Wilbur) Wright that said that.

On 1/17/21 2:06 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 12:56:41 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>> Highest I could find was the Mil Mi-8 at 30,000'. The air at 30,000' on
>> Earth is a lot thicker than on Mars at any altitude. So, how can it be
>> done with a helicopter?
>>
>
> 'Simplicate and add lightness' (wish I knew who first said that).
>
> Judging be the look of the Mars Helicopter that will be carried by the
> Mars 2020 mission's rover, that's pretty much exactly what they did: it
> has a single rotor shaft supporting a pair of contra-rotating two-blade
> rotors. Its electric powwred, but with a relatively small battery and, to
> keep it chanrged, a set of photocells mounted on top of the rotor mast.
>
> https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/
>
> Well, only 31 days until it lands on Mars and, since the plot is to fly
> the chopper before the rover goes off exploring the crater it should land
> in, we haven't long to wait before we see if it can fly.
>
>
>


--
Dan
5J

[Mark Mocho]

On June 21, 1972, Jean Boulet of France piloted an Aérospatiale SA 315B Lama helicopter to an absolute altitude record of 40,814 feet (12,440 m).

And on May 14, 2005, Didier Delsalle became the first (and only) person to land a helicopter, the Eurocopter AS350 Squirrel, on the 8,848 m (29,030 ft) summit of Mount Everest.

Pretty cool accomplishments, but Perlan 2 got to 76,124 ft. on September 2, 2018 for the highest altitude achieved in a (manned, unpowered) glider.

And, as a "fixed wing weenie" who also appreciates helicopters, I challenge ol' Jonathan to a power off glide contest. Heck, I know some wingsuit guys who would also beat his rotors off in a glide duel.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 15:49:59 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Sounds terrific!
>
> 'Simplicate and add lightness' (wish I knew who first said that). It
> was Orville (or Wilbur) Wright that said that.
>
I just did a search: it seems to be more generally attributed to William
Bushnell Stout, who designed the Ford Trimotor and secondarily to Colin
Chapman, the engineer behind Lotus cars, who said something very similar.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org