USA automated panel-cutting service? [Archive]

Matt Herron Jr.

January 27th 21, 06:04 PM

Rex cut my panel for my 27b. I too recommend modeling the instruments in 3D, especially near the edges of the panel, and for depth behind the panel. I discovered many issues prior to cutting the final panel. Also, you can cut a test panel from clear 1/8" plex, and assemble instruments into that so you can see where you might have cable access issues, crashes, etc. That will catch CAD layout mistakes, too. also good for testing visibility and front access while sitting in the cockpit.

Matt

On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 9:47:37 AM UTC-8, Me wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 5:32:34 AM UTC-8, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 26, 2021 at 8:56:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > Anybody able to recommend a USA company that can do automated panel
> > > cutting (from CAD)? Or maybe in Canada? Fiberglass panel, typical glider
> > > panel overall size, flat surface with uniform depth flange.
> > > Thanks!
> > Try Rex Mayes at Williams Soaring. I understand that they have a source..
> > UH
> Ditto what Doug said, the panel on my Ventus B is quite different in the back than the front, and different from the available template as well as far as mounting instruments is concerned. It's not even symmetrical left to right. If your install has some tight tolerances you will need to consider this.

joesimmers[_2_]

January 27th 21, 11:38 PM

Waterjets work well for that, google it there's a good chance a shop
in your hometown has one.

Doug Levy

January 28th 21, 06:30 PM

On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 3:39:00 PM UTC-8, joesimmers wrote:
> Waterjets work well for that, google it there's a good chance a shop
> in your hometown has one.

The water jet shops I've worked with use DXF files to generate their cut paths. Many CAD programs generate DXF files. I don't think the water jet shop wants to work with paper drawings or sketches.

joesimmers[_2_]

January 28th 21, 07:12 PM

> The water jet shops I've worked with use DXF files to generate their cut paths. Many CAD programs generate DXF files. I don't think the water jet shop wants to work with paper drawings or sketches.

Exactly Doug, you can either pay them to generate a .dxf file from paper sketch, or provide your own
to save cost. The labor to generate the .dxf will likely be higher than the waterjet work but both should
be very affordable.

Dave Nadler

January 30th 21, 08:36 PM

On 1/26/2021 8:56 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> Anybody able to recommend a USA company that can do automated panel
> cutting (from CAD)? Or maybe in Canada? Fiberglass panel, typical glider
> panel overall size, flat surface with uniform depth flange.
> Thanks!

Geeze guys, CAD does not mean Carbon-pointed-pencil Aided Design.
Yes, I do have 3D CAD model to ensure no interferences...

Thanks Hank and JFitch for reminding me to try Rex, who sent the
reply below. Large-bed CNC router might make nicest result.

Dave,

Water jet has a delamination problem with wet layed up fiber glass
structures like the Shempp panels. (so I am told. I have no direct
experience.)

The laser does a nice job but it burns the material and leaves a charred
edge. This is fixed with a bit of touch up sanding. The thick Shempp
panels require 2-3 passes of the laser so the there is a bit of finish
work after the cut.

CNC mill does a nice job but my table does not have enough travel to cut
a panel with out repositioning the work.

Let me know if I can help.
Rex

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

January 30th 21, 09:17 PM

Dave Nadler wrote on 1/30/2021 12:36 PM:
> On 1/26/2021 8:56 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
>> Anybody able to recommend a USA company that can do automated panel cutting (from CAD)? Or
>> maybe in Canada? Fiberglass panel, typical glider panel overall size, flat surface with
>> uniform depth flange.
>> Thanks!
>
> Geeze guys, CAD does not mean Carbon-pointed-pencil Aided Design.
> Yes, I do have 3D CAD model to ensure no interferences...
>
> Thanks Hank and JFitch for reminding me to try Rex, who sent the
> reply below. Large-bed CNC router might make nicest result.
>
>
> Dave,
>
> Water jet has a delamination problem with wet layed up fiber glass structures like the Shempp
> panels. (so I am told.* I have no direct experience.)
>
> The laser does a nice job but it burns the material and leaves a charred edge. This is fixed
> with a bit of touch up sanding. The thick Shempp panels require 2-3 passes of the laser so the
> there is a bit of finish work after the cut.
>
> CNC mill does a nice job but my table does not have enough travel to cut a panel with out
> repositioning the work.
>
> Let me know if I can help.
> Rex
Ooo! Ooo! I know: have it 3D printed! That would give it a modern look.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Anonymous[_23_]

January 30th 21, 10:39 PM

In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
cut material and ship to you.

Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
your favorite fine cutter.

Britton

Dave Nadler

January 30th 21, 11:49 PM

On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
> model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
> reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
> cut material and ship to you.
>
> Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
> your favorite fine cutter.
>
> Britton

Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?

Anonymous[_23_]

January 31st 21, 12:14 AM

Dave Nadler > wrote:
> On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
>> In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
>> model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
>> reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
>> cut material and ship to you.
>>
>> Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
>> your favorite fine cutter.
>>
>> Britton
>
> Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
> use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?
>

I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more
options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m
happy.

Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through
this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the
newsreader app.

Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user
is satisfied.

Britton

jfitch

January 31st 21, 01:31 AM

Waterjet will work fine, but will create blisters of delam local to the pierce location. What this means is you pierce in the middle of your 57mm hole and then spiral out to the contour. The problem is piercing the holes for the screws won't work (or risks damage) as the blisters will often be bigger than the hole. You can hand drill them later but they will be all over the place because they are hand drilled.

I cut mine on my CNC mill, took about 10 minutes (after all the design and setup). If you strike out elsewhere, I might be talked into it under the right conditions. The issue on a CNC mill is you have to figure out how to hold it, and where the CL is - at least on the panels I've seen they are not very symmetric (and won't match the drawing) so it's hard to guess.

What I did to fixture it is make a plywood plug the would sit up in the flange of the panel and hold it off the table. Then drilled holes in the middle of all the cutouts and screwed it to the plywood through those holes. Then ran the program to cut all the shapes and holes. Part way through you have a bunch of additional holes to screw down through.

This is the advantage of waterjet or laser - they are essentially no-force machining so fixturing is easy. On a CNC mill or router, you need to nail that sucker down.

On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 4:14:36 PM UTC-8, Anonymous wrote:
> Dave Nadler > wrote:
> > On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> >> In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
> >> model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
> >> reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
> >> cut material and ship to you.
> >>
> >> Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
> >> your favorite fine cutter.
> >>
> >> Britton
> >
> > Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
> > use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?
> >
> I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more
> options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m
> happy.
>
> Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through
> this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the
> newsreader app.
>
> Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user
> is satisfied.
>
> Britton

January 31st 21, 05:22 AM

On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 5:31:52 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> Waterjet will work fine, but will create blisters of delam local to the pierce location. What this means is you pierce in the middle of your 57mm hole and then spiral out to the contour. The problem is piercing the holes for the screws won't work (or risks damage) as the blisters will often be bigger than the hole. You can hand drill them later but they will be all over the place because they are hand drilled.
>
> I cut mine on my CNC mill, took about 10 minutes (after all the design and setup). If you strike out elsewhere, I might be talked into it under the right conditions. The issue on a CNC mill is you have to figure out how to hold it, and where the CL is - at least on the panels I've seen they are not very symmetric (and won't match the drawing) so it's hard to guess.
>
> What I did to fixture it is make a plywood plug the would sit up in the flange of the panel and hold it off the table. Then drilled holes in the middle of all the cutouts and screwed it to the plywood through those holes. Then ran the program to cut all the shapes and holes. Part way through you have a bunch of additional holes to screw down through.
>
> This is the advantage of waterjet or laser - they are essentially no-force machining so fixturing is easy. On a CNC mill or router, you need to nail that sucker down.
> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 4:14:36 PM UTC-8, Anonymous wrote:
> > Dave Nadler > wrote:
> > > On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> > >> In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
> > >> model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
> > >> reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
> > >> cut material and ship to you.
> > >>
> > >> Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
> > >> your favorite fine cutter.
> > >>
> > >> Britton
> > >
> > > Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
> > > use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?
> > >
> > I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more
> > options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m
> > happy.
> >
> > Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through
> > this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the
> > newsreader app.
> >
> > Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user
> > is satisfied.
> >
> > Britton

If you are an EAA member you can download a free version of Solidworks (if not, it is worth joining because SW is about $5k). You can create a 3D version of your panel. If you want to check interferences you can either create 3D models of the avionics or download these models from sites such as:
https://grabcad.com/library?softwares=solidworks&sort=most_downloaded&tags=avionics
You can create an assembly using these models (you will create the model of your panel).
From this you can create output files that all CNC shops recognize.

Solidworks does have a steep learning curve, but it is worth it. There are numerous online training videos that help a lot. Once proficient at it you can create virtually any kind of part you can think of, either machined out of solid material or made by 3D rendering machines.

Tom

Richard Livingston

January 31st 21, 05:55 PM

On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 11:22:48 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 5:31:52 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > Waterjet will work fine, but will create blisters of delam local to the pierce location. What this means is you pierce in the middle of your 57mm hole and then spiral out to the contour. The problem is piercing the holes for the screws won't work (or risks damage) as the blisters will often be bigger than the hole. You can hand drill them later but they will be all over the place because they are hand drilled.
> >
> > I cut mine on my CNC mill, took about 10 minutes (after all the design and setup). If you strike out elsewhere, I might be talked into it under the right conditions. The issue on a CNC mill is you have to figure out how to hold it, and where the CL is - at least on the panels I've seen they are not very symmetric (and won't match the drawing) so it's hard to guess.
> >
> > What I did to fixture it is make a plywood plug the would sit up in the flange of the panel and hold it off the table. Then drilled holes in the middle of all the cutouts and screwed it to the plywood through those holes. Then ran the program to cut all the shapes and holes. Part way through you have a bunch of additional holes to screw down through.
> >
> > This is the advantage of waterjet or laser - they are essentially no-force machining so fixturing is easy. On a CNC mill or router, you need to nail that sucker down.
> > On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 4:14:36 PM UTC-8, Anonymous wrote:
> > > Dave Nadler > wrote:
> > > > On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> > > >> In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
> > > >> model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
> > > >> reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
> > > >> cut material and ship to you.
> > > >>
> > > >> Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
> > > >> your favorite fine cutter.
> > > >>
> > > >> Britton
> > > >
> > > > Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
> > > > use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?
> > > >
> > > I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more
> > > options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m
> > > happy.
> > >
> > > Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through
> > > this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the
> > > newsreader app.
> > >
> > > Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user
> > > is satisfied.
> > >
> > > Britton
> If you are an EAA member you can download a free version of Solidworks (if not, it is worth joining because SW is about $5k). You can create a 3D version of your panel. If you want to check interferences you can either create 3D models of the avionics or download these models from sites such as:
> https://grabcad.com/library?softwares=solidworks&sort=most_downloaded&tags=avionics
> You can create an assembly using these models (you will create the model of your panel).
> From this you can create output files that all CNC shops recognize.
>
> Solidworks does have a steep learning curve, but it is worth it. There are numerous online training videos that help a lot. Once proficient at it you can create virtually any kind of part you can think of, either machined out of solid material or made by 3D rendering machines.
>
> Tom

Another CAD package you can use that is FREE is ONSHAPE (onshape.com/en). It also has a bit of a learning curve (all capable CAD programs do) but for jobs of limited complexity, such as a console, you can use onshape free.

Rich L.

Matt Herron Jr.

January 31st 21, 06:42 PM

I looked through that list of avionics and didn't find much that a glider pilot would be interested in. However, when I re-did my asw27b panel I modeled all the instruments in Solidworks. This would include the Trig t-22 head and body, Flarm core, ASI (large), card compass, LNAV V80, Oudie, etc. zip files an be downloaded here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n1j67ov2a87ozkp/AABgNsVQWu5Q226Y3qmfA-kHa?dl=0 if you are interested.

Matt

On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 11:22:48 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 5:31:52 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > > Waterjet will work fine, but will create blisters of delam local to the pierce location. What this means is you pierce in the middle of your 57mm hole and then spiral out to the contour. The problem is piercing the holes for the screws won't work (or risks damage) as the blisters will often be bigger than the hole. You can hand drill them later but they will be all over the place because they are hand drilled.
> > >
> > > I cut mine on my CNC mill, took about 10 minutes (after all the design and setup). If you strike out elsewhere, I might be talked into it under the right conditions. The issue on a CNC mill is you have to figure out how to hold it, and where the CL is - at least on the panels I've seen they are not very symmetric (and won't match the drawing) so it's hard to guess.
> > >
> > > What I did to fixture it is make a plywood plug the would sit up in the flange of the panel and hold it off the table. Then drilled holes in the middle of all the cutouts and screwed it to the plywood through those holes. Then ran the program to cut all the shapes and holes. Part way through you have a bunch of additional holes to screw down through.
> > >
> > > This is the advantage of waterjet or laser - they are essentially no-force machining so fixturing is easy. On a CNC mill or router, you need to nail that sucker down.
> > > On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 4:14:36 PM UTC-8, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > Dave Nadler > wrote:
> > > > > On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > >> In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
> > > > >> model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
> > > > >> reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
> > > > >> cut material and ship to you.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
> > > > >> your favorite fine cutter.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Britton
> > > > >
> > > > > Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
> > > > > use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?
> > > > >
> > > > I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more
> > > > options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m
> > > > happy.
> > > >
> > > > Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through
> > > > this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the
> > > > newsreader app.
> > > >
> > > > Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user
> > > > is satisfied.
> > > >
> > > > Britton
> > If you are an EAA member you can download a free version of Solidworks (if not, it is worth joining because SW is about $5k). You can create a 3D version of your panel. If you want to check interferences you can either create 3D models of the avionics or download these models from sites such as:
> > https://grabcad.com/library?softwares=solidworks&sort=most_downloaded&tags=avionics
> > You can create an assembly using these models (you will create the model of your panel).
> > From this you can create output files that all CNC shops recognize.
> >
> > Solidworks does have a steep learning curve, but it is worth it. There are numerous online training videos that help a lot. Once proficient at it you can create virtually any kind of part you can think of, either machined out of solid material or made by 3D rendering machines.
> >
> > Tom
> Another CAD package you can use that is FREE is ONSHAPE (onshape.com/en). It also has a bit of a learning curve (all capable CAD programs do) but for jobs of limited complexity, such as a console, you can use onshape free.
>
> Rich L.

January 31st 21, 08:56 PM

On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 10:42:04 AM UTC-8, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> I looked through that list of avionics and didn't find much that a glider pilot would be interested in. However, when I re-did my asw27b panel I modeled all the instruments in Solidworks. This would include the Trig t-22 head and body, Flarm core, ASI (large), card compass, LNAV V80, Oudie, etc. zip files an be downloaded here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n1j67ov2a87ozkp/AABgNsVQWu5Q226Y3qmfA-kHa?dl=0 if you are interested.
>
> Matt
> On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 11:22:48 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 5:31:52 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > > > Waterjet will work fine, but will create blisters of delam local to the pierce location. What this means is you pierce in the middle of your 57mm hole and then spiral out to the contour. The problem is piercing the holes for the screws won't work (or risks damage) as the blisters will often be bigger than the hole. You can hand drill them later but they will be all over the place because they are hand drilled.
> > > >
> > > > I cut mine on my CNC mill, took about 10 minutes (after all the design and setup). If you strike out elsewhere, I might be talked into it under the right conditions. The issue on a CNC mill is you have to figure out how to hold it, and where the CL is - at least on the panels I've seen they are not very symmetric (and won't match the drawing) so it's hard to guess.
> > > >
> > > > What I did to fixture it is make a plywood plug the would sit up in the flange of the panel and hold it off the table. Then drilled holes in the middle of all the cutouts and screwed it to the plywood through those holes. Then ran the program to cut all the shapes and holes. Part way through you have a bunch of additional holes to screw down through.
> > > >
> > > > This is the advantage of waterjet or laser - they are essentially no-force machining so fixturing is easy. On a CNC mill or router, you need to nail that sucker down.
> > > > On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 4:14:36 PM UTC-8, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > > Dave Nadler > wrote:
> > > > > > On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > > >> In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
> > > > > >> model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
> > > > > >> reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time.. They just
> > > > > >> cut material and ship to you.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
> > > > > >> your favorite fine cutter.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Britton
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
> > > > > > use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?
> > > > > >
> > > > > I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more
> > > > > options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m
> > > > > happy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through
> > > > > this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the
> > > > > newsreader app.
> > > > >
> > > > > Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user
> > > > > is satisfied.
> > > > >
> > > > > Britton
> > > If you are an EAA member you can download a free version of Solidworks (if not, it is worth joining because SW is about $5k). You can create a 3D version of your panel. If you want to check interferences you can either create 3D models of the avionics or download these models from sites such as:
> > > https://grabcad.com/library?softwares=solidworks&sort=most_downloaded&tags=avionics
> > > You can create an assembly using these models (you will create the model of your panel).
> > > From this you can create output files that all CNC shops recognize.
> > >
> > > Solidworks does have a steep learning curve, but it is worth it. There are numerous online training videos that help a lot. Once proficient at it you can create virtually any kind of part you can think of, either machined out of solid material or made by 3D rendering machines.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > Another CAD package you can use that is FREE is ONSHAPE (onshape.com/en). It also has a bit of a learning curve (all capable CAD programs do) but for jobs of limited complexity, such as a console, you can use onshape free..
> >
> > Rich L.

Hi Matt,

Thanks for posting those models - that will significantly simply the process for others that want to try it. Building those models are the most time consuming part of the process. I have no dog in the fight: I paid Schleicher to build my panel for me, and it was worth every euro!

Tom

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

January 31st 21, 09:42 PM

I like your multiple label plastic overlay. That sucker isn't going to curl up and fall off in
the heat!

Eric

Matt Herron Jr. wrote on 1/31/2021 10:42 AM:
> I looked through that list of avionics and didn't find much that a glider pilot would be interested in. However, when I re-did my asw27b panel I modeled all the instruments in Solidworks. This would include the Trig t-22 head and body, Flarm core, ASI (large), card compass, LNAV V80, Oudie, etc. zip files an be downloaded here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n1j67ov2a87ozkp/AABgNsVQWu5Q226Y3qmfA-kHa?dl=0 if you are interested.
>
> Matt
>
> On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 11:22:48 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 5:31:52 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
>>>> Waterjet will work fine, but will create blisters of delam local to the pierce location. What this ...
>>> Solidworks does have a steep learning curve, but it is worth it. There are numerous online training videos that help a lot. Once proficient at it you can create virtually any kind of part you can think of, either machined out of solid material or made by 3D rendering machines.
>>>
>>> Tom
>> Another CAD package you can use that is FREE is ONSHAPE (onshape.com/en). It also has a bit of a learning curve (all capable CAD programs do) but for jobs of limited complexity, such as a console, you can use onshape free.
>>
>> Rich L.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

January 31st 21, 10:10 PM

On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 11:22:48 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 5:31:52 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > > Waterjet will work fine, but will create blisters of delam local to the pierce location. What this means is you pierce in the middle of your 57mm hole and then spiral out to the contour. The problem is piercing the holes for the screws won't work (or risks damage) as the blisters will often be bigger than the hole. You can hand drill them later but they will be all over the place because they are hand drilled.
> > >
> > > I cut mine on my CNC mill, took about 10 minutes (after all the design and setup). If you strike out elsewhere, I might be talked into it under the right conditions. The issue on a CNC mill is you have to figure out how to hold it, and where the CL is - at least on the panels I've seen they are not very symmetric (and won't match the drawing) so it's hard to guess.
> > >
> > > What I did to fixture it is make a plywood plug the would sit up in the flange of the panel and hold it off the table. Then drilled holes in the middle of all the cutouts and screwed it to the plywood through those holes. Then ran the program to cut all the shapes and holes. Part way through you have a bunch of additional holes to screw down through.
> > >
> > > This is the advantage of waterjet or laser - they are essentially no-force machining so fixturing is easy. On a CNC mill or router, you need to nail that sucker down.
> > > On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 4:14:36 PM UTC-8, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > Dave Nadler > wrote:
> > > > > On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > >> In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
> > > > >> model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
> > > > >> reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
> > > > >> cut material and ship to you.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
> > > > >> your favorite fine cutter.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Britton
> > > > >
> > > > > Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
> > > > > use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?
> > > > >
> > > > I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more
> > > > options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m
> > > > happy.
> > > >
> > > > Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through
> > > > this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the
> > > > newsreader app.
> > > >
> > > > Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user
> > > > is satisfied.
> > > >
> > > > Britton
> > If you are an EAA member you can download a free version of Solidworks (if not, it is worth joining because SW is about $5k). You can create a 3D version of your panel. If you want to check interferences you can either create 3D models of the avionics or download these models from sites such as:
> > https://grabcad.com/library?softwares=solidworks&sort=most_downloaded&tags=avionics
> > You can create an assembly using these models (you will create the model of your panel).
> > From this you can create output files that all CNC shops recognize.
> >
> > Solidworks does have a steep learning curve, but it is worth it. There are numerous online training videos that help a lot. Once proficient at it you can create virtually any kind of part you can think of, either machined out of solid material or made by 3D rendering machines.
> >
> > Tom
> Another CAD package you can use that is FREE is ONSHAPE (onshape.com/en). It also has a bit of a learning curve (all capable CAD programs do) but for jobs of limited complexity, such as a console, you can use onshape free.
>
> Rich L.

Rich,

I have never heard of Onshape, so I checked it out. Here is a comparison between it and SW:
https://www.scan2cad.com/cad/onshape-vs-solidworks/#SolidWorks_vs_Onshape
The most important thing about Onshape is that the free version requires that all of your parts and designs be public (everything is stored in the cloud, not on your computer). If this is a problem for you you will have to subscribe at a rate of $1,500 per year for the basic version (similar to SW). The have an Enterprise version that they don't list pricing for (you have to request a quote). I can get SW for free with my EAA subscription ($40 per year) and everything is stored on my computer unless I share it:
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/eaa-membership?gclid=Cj0KCQiAx9mABhD0ARIsAEfpavRfvW2S2 k8A8mnIhSnA9e9JRRJYDn8IZLL3a6_wZQ2lIOUIiF4Rx44aAhn PEALw_wcB
I did upload a number of Matt's parts successfully to Onshape, but haven't figured out how to upload an assembly yet.

In any case, mechanical design CAD software is a real game changer. Once you master the software you can have parts made cheaply with absolutely to machining experience or equipment.

Tom

Andy Blackburn[_3_]

February 1st 21, 01:03 AM

I did my -27 panel in AutoCAD 2D - this was before I taught myself 3D CAD. I measured all the instruments and modeled the size of the enclosures in addition screw holes, faces, etc. Fortunately I didn't have any depth-related issues, but on other gliders you need to know where stuff behind the panel is so that requires 3D as Matt describes.

I used a laser cutter to make acrylic models of the panel - maybe half a dozen with various tweaks. I mounted the instruments double check clearances and wedged the whole thing into the cockpit to make sure I could see and reach things - twiddle knobs without interference from adjacent knobs, etc.

Then I laser cut several 1/8" and 1/4" acrylic templates - one thin one with just the instrument bolt holes and a center drill hole in the middle of each instrument face - to start the router bit - and then two templates with the the mount holes plus the instrument holes. This also included 1/16" holes at the corners of any instrument holes that had angled openings (USB plugs [tricky!], circuit breakers, etc. - anything with a radius smaller than the 3/16" template router bit ( https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-Miniature-Bearing-Carbide/dp/B010C7W38W ). I started with just the screw hole template and hand marked and drilled maybe four holes so I could bolt the screw hole template to the panel blank and drill the rest of the instrument bolt holes without any drift. I used a drill press for this because it's easy to chew up the acrylic if you do it handheld.

Once that was done I bolted the double templates with the holes for the instrument faces on the front and back of the the panel blank to sandwich it flat and give me a guide. I mounted the 3/16 router bit which has an end bearing to follow the template in a router ( https://tinyurl.com/y5l3shz8 ) I got from home depot that could be mounted with the bit pointing up on a router table ( https://tinyurl.com/y5addzct ). I set the bit depth so that the bearing lined up with the thicker template on the inside of the panel blank. This way the panel face-side template can on the router table and you can see the bit following along the template (note that the bolts that hold the face-side template need to be counter-sunk in the acrylic or it won't be flat to slide on the router table.

It takes a bit of care to cut all the instrument holes without messing up. I practiced a couple of times on flat 1/16" fiberglass sheet. A key thing to watch out for is if the tiny template bearing seizes. If this happens it will start spinning and will melt the acrylic template at which point you are going to ruin the panel. I always started with a fresh bit and took pauses to see if it was starting to bind. You could probably use a bigger bit to have less probability of failure, but some holes have tight radii so choose your bits wisely. I cut the instruments holes with only a thousandth or two of tolerance for the instruments. If you do this you better be sure to measure the instruments exactly. I ended up having to sand a few openings an extra thousandth or so to get the instrument in.

In the end it worked great, though it was a lot of work. If Rex tells you it was a high-quality job that's a compliment. This was before Rex had his laser. If I had to do it again I'd consider just having the folks at Williams do it.

It's not the sort of thing that you can easily get done commercially because of all the fiddling and the thinness of the panel. Getting access to a laser cutter also can be tricky. I ultimately bought my own, but they are pricy so you'd really need to have another reason to own one.

Hope that helps.

Andy Blackburn
9B

On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 3:50:01 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> > In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
> > model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing.. They’re
> > reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
> > cut material and ship to you.
> >
> > Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
> > your favorite fine cutter.
> >
> > Britton
> Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
> use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)

February 1st 21, 02:14 AM

On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 8:03:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I did my -27 panel in AutoCAD 2D - this was before I taught myself 3D CAD.. I measured all the instruments and modeled the size of the enclosures in addition screw holes, faces, etc. Fortunately I didn't have any depth-related issues, but on other gliders you need to know where stuff behind the panel is so that requires 3D as Matt describes.
>
> I used a laser cutter to make acrylic models of the panel - maybe half a dozen with various tweaks. I mounted the instruments double check clearances and wedged the whole thing into the cockpit to make sure I could see and reach things - twiddle knobs without interference from adjacent knobs, etc.
>
> Then I laser cut several 1/8" and 1/4" acrylic templates - one thin one with just the instrument bolt holes and a center drill hole in the middle of each instrument face - to start the router bit - and then two templates with the the mount holes plus the instrument holes. This also included 1/16" holes at the corners of any instrument holes that had angled openings (USB plugs [tricky!], circuit breakers, etc. - anything with a radius smaller than the 3/16" template router bit ( https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-Miniature-Bearing-Carbide/dp/B010C7W38W ). I started with just the screw hole template and hand marked and drilled maybe four holes so I could bolt the screw hole template to the panel blank and drill the rest of the instrument bolt holes without any drift. I used a drill press for this because it's easy to chew up the acrylic if you do it handheld.
>
> Once that was done I bolted the double templates with the holes for the instrument faces on the front and back of the the panel blank to sandwich it flat and give me a guide. I mounted the 3/16 router bit which has an end bearing to follow the template in a router ( https://tinyurl.com/y5l3shz8 ) I got from home depot that could be mounted with the bit pointing up on a router table ( https://tinyurl.com/y5addzct ). I set the bit depth so that the bearing lined up with the thicker template on the inside of the panel blank. This way the panel face-side template can on the router table and you can see the bit following along the template (note that the bolts that hold the face-side template need to be counter-sunk in the acrylic or it won't be flat to slide on the router table.
>
> It takes a bit of care to cut all the instrument holes without messing up.. I practiced a couple of times on flat 1/16" fiberglass sheet. A key thing to watch out for is if the tiny template bearing seizes. If this happens it will start spinning and will melt the acrylic template at which point you are going to ruin the panel. I always started with a fresh bit and took pauses to see if it was starting to bind. You could probably use a bigger bit to have less probability of failure, but some holes have tight radii so choose your bits wisely. I cut the instruments holes with only a thousandth or two of tolerance for the instruments. If you do this you better be sure to measure the instruments exactly. I ended up having to sand a few openings an extra thousandth or so to get the instrument in.
>
> In the end it worked great, though it was a lot of work. If Rex tells you it was a high-quality job that's a compliment. This was before Rex had his laser. If I had to do it again I'd consider just having the folks at Williams do it.
>
> It's not the sort of thing that you can easily get done commercially because of all the fiddling and the thinness of the panel. Getting access to a laser cutter also can be tricky. I ultimately bought my own, but they are pricy so you'd really need to have another reason to own one.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Andy Blackburn
> 9B
> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 3:50:01 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> > > In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
> > > model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
> > > reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
> > > cut material and ship to you.
> > >
> > > Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
> > > your favorite fine cutter.
> > >
> > > Britton
> > Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
> > use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?
Minor as NOT a machinist...there are conversations of "climbmilling" vs "conviential milling"...

Doug Levy

February 1st 21, 02:24 AM

On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 6:14:26 PM UTC-8, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 8:03:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > I did my -27 panel in AutoCAD 2D - this was before I taught myself 3D CAD. I measured all the instruments and modeled the size of the enclosures in addition screw holes, faces, etc. Fortunately I didn't have any depth-related issues, but on other gliders you need to know where stuff behind the panel is so that requires 3D as Matt describes.
> >
> > I used a laser cutter to make acrylic models of the panel - maybe half a dozen with various tweaks. I mounted the instruments double check clearances and wedged the whole thing into the cockpit to make sure I could see and reach things - twiddle knobs without interference from adjacent knobs, etc.
> >
> > Then I laser cut several 1/8" and 1/4" acrylic templates - one thin one with just the instrument bolt holes and a center drill hole in the middle of each instrument face - to start the router bit - and then two templates with the the mount holes plus the instrument holes. This also included 1/16" holes at the corners of any instrument holes that had angled openings (USB plugs [tricky!], circuit breakers, etc. - anything with a radius smaller than the 3/16" template router bit ( https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-Miniature-Bearing-Carbide/dp/B010C7W38W ). I started with just the screw hole template and hand marked and drilled maybe four holes so I could bolt the screw hole template to the panel blank and drill the rest of the instrument bolt holes without any drift. I used a drill press for this because it's easy to chew up the acrylic if you do it handheld.
> >
> > Once that was done I bolted the double templates with the holes for the instrument faces on the front and back of the the panel blank to sandwich it flat and give me a guide. I mounted the 3/16 router bit which has an end bearing to follow the template in a router ( https://tinyurl.com/y5l3shz8 ) I got from home depot that could be mounted with the bit pointing up on a router table ( https://tinyurl.com/y5addzct ). I set the bit depth so that the bearing lined up with the thicker template on the inside of the panel blank. This way the panel face-side template can on the router table and you can see the bit following along the template (note that the bolts that hold the face-side template need to be counter-sunk in the acrylic or it won't be flat to slide on the router table.
> >
> > It takes a bit of care to cut all the instrument holes without messing up. I practiced a couple of times on flat 1/16" fiberglass sheet. A key thing to watch out for is if the tiny template bearing seizes. If this happens it will start spinning and will melt the acrylic template at which point you are going to ruin the panel. I always started with a fresh bit and took pauses to see if it was starting to bind. You could probably use a bigger bit to have less probability of failure, but some holes have tight radii so choose your bits wisely. I cut the instruments holes with only a thousandth or two of tolerance for the instruments. If you do this you better be sure to measure the instruments exactly. I ended up having to sand a few openings an extra thousandth or so to get the instrument in.
> >
> > In the end it worked great, though it was a lot of work. If Rex tells you it was a high-quality job that's a compliment. This was before Rex had his laser. If I had to do it again I'd consider just having the folks at Williams do it.
> >
> > It's not the sort of thing that you can easily get done commercially because of all the fiddling and the thinness of the panel. Getting access to a laser cutter also can be tricky. I ultimately bought my own, but they are pricy so you'd really need to have another reason to own one.
> >
> > Hope that helps.
> >
> > Andy Blackburn
> > 9B
> > On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 3:50:01 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
> > > > model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
> > > > reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
> > > > cut material and ship to you.
> > > >
> > > > Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
> > > > your favorite fine cutter.
> > > >
> > > > Britton
> > > Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
> > > use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?
> Minor as NOT a machinist...there are conversations of "climbmilling" vs "conviential milling"...

Found this about water jet cutting carbon fiber
https://www.elevatedmaterials.com/cutting-carbon-fiber-with-a-waterjet/

Mark Mocho

February 1st 21, 03:14 AM

I've done four different panels for my Pegasus as the instruments have been upgraded. All were done with an accurate 2D layout plan showing X-Y coordinates of all instrument holes and screw locations. All were done on a hand cranked milling machine with X-Y digital readouts. Tools used for the holes were typical 135 degree split-point drill bits and 57 and 80 mm hole saws. Some hand finishing was required, like making the cutout for the Kohlsmann adjustment knob on the altimeter. The first three panels were either aluminum or fiberglass with a carbon layer on the face, and the last panel was a 3 mm carbon plate found on the internet for about $80. I've been happy with the results, and have done a couple of other panels for other pilots (ASW-20, Discus). But both of those were done after the owners provided me with the X-Y coordinates and a panel blank. The flange on the ASW-20 panel wasn't a big deal, as I just cut out a backing plate from particle board that held the flange above the milling table and allowed me to clamp the panel down with the typical "dogs" used for normal milling operations. I hesitated to go with the waterjet or laser cutting services because of the delamination and burning issues referenced above. Plus, I kind of enjoyed the challenge. Especially since it all worked out and I got it right on the first try each time. YMMV

David Shelton[_2_]

February 1st 21, 03:43 AM

I highly recommend a CNC router with an 1/8" burr. Amana Tool makes some nice burrs specifically for composites. Traditional milling bits tend to snag and pull on the fibers.

Richard Livingston

February 1st 21, 02:20 PM

On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 4:10:36 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 11:22:48 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 5:31:52 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > > > Waterjet will work fine, but will create blisters of delam local to the pierce location. What this means is you pierce in the middle of your 57mm hole and then spiral out to the contour. The problem is piercing the holes for the screws won't work (or risks damage) as the blisters will often be bigger than the hole. You can hand drill them later but they will be all over the place because they are hand drilled.
> > > >
> > > > I cut mine on my CNC mill, took about 10 minutes (after all the design and setup). If you strike out elsewhere, I might be talked into it under the right conditions. The issue on a CNC mill is you have to figure out how to hold it, and where the CL is - at least on the panels I've seen they are not very symmetric (and won't match the drawing) so it's hard to guess.
> > > >
> > > > What I did to fixture it is make a plywood plug the would sit up in the flange of the panel and hold it off the table. Then drilled holes in the middle of all the cutouts and screwed it to the plywood through those holes. Then ran the program to cut all the shapes and holes. Part way through you have a bunch of additional holes to screw down through.
> > > >
> > > > This is the advantage of waterjet or laser - they are essentially no-force machining so fixturing is easy. On a CNC mill or router, you need to nail that sucker down.
> > > > On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 4:14:36 PM UTC-8, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > > Dave Nadler > wrote:
> > > > > > On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
> > > > > >> In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
> > > > > >> model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
> > > > > >> reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time.. They just
> > > > > >> cut material and ship to you.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
> > > > > >> your favorite fine cutter.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Britton
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
> > > > > > use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?
> > > > > >
> > > > > I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more
> > > > > options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m
> > > > > happy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through
> > > > > this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the
> > > > > newsreader app.
> > > > >
> > > > > Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user
> > > > > is satisfied.
> > > > >
> > > > > Britton
> > > If you are an EAA member you can download a free version of Solidworks (if not, it is worth joining because SW is about $5k). You can create a 3D version of your panel. If you want to check interferences you can either create 3D models of the avionics or download these models from sites such as:
> > > https://grabcad.com/library?softwares=solidworks&sort=most_downloaded&tags=avionics
> > > You can create an assembly using these models (you will create the model of your panel).
> > > From this you can create output files that all CNC shops recognize.
> > >
> > > Solidworks does have a steep learning curve, but it is worth it. There are numerous online training videos that help a lot. Once proficient at it you can create virtually any kind of part you can think of, either machined out of solid material or made by 3D rendering machines.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > Another CAD package you can use that is FREE is ONSHAPE (onshape.com/en). It also has a bit of a learning curve (all capable CAD programs do) but for jobs of limited complexity, such as a console, you can use onshape free..
> >
> > Rich L.
> Rich,
>
> I have never heard of Onshape, so I checked it out. Here is a comparison between it and SW:
> https://www.scan2cad.com/cad/onshape-vs-solidworks/#SolidWorks_vs_Onshape
> The most important thing about Onshape is that the free version requires that all of your parts and designs be public (everything is stored in the cloud, not on your computer). If this is a problem for you you will have to subscribe at a rate of $1,500 per year for the basic version (similar to SW). The have an Enterprise version that they don't list pricing for (you have to request a quote). I can get SW for free with my EAA subscription ($40 per year) and everything is stored on my computer unless I share it:
> https://www.eaa.org/eaa/eaa-membership?gclid=Cj0KCQiAx9mABhD0ARIsAEfpavRfvW2S2 k8A8mnIhSnA9e9JRRJYDn8IZLL3a6_wZQ2lIOUIiF4Rx44aAhn PEALw_wcB
> I did upload a number of Matt's parts successfully to Onshape, but haven't figured out how to upload an assembly yet.
>
> In any case, mechanical design CAD software is a real game changer. Once you master the software you can have parts made cheaply with absolutely to machining experience or equipment.
>
> Tom

Onshape and SolidWorks are very different in concept. I've used both and both can do very sophisticated work, and both have a significant learning curve. I agree with all your points, but if someone doesn't have access to Solidworks (and the EAA is a very good option) then Onshape is free to try. One plus for Onshape, they have very good tutorials to help getting started.

Rich L.

Stuart Venters

February 1st 21, 02:52 PM

On 1/31/21 9:43 PM, David Shelton wrote:
> I highly recommend a CNC router with an 1/8" burr. Amana Tool makes some nice burrs specifically for composites. Traditional milling bits tend to snag and pull on the fibers.
>

I wonder how one of these would do from a CAD file?

https://www.rockler.com/shaper-origin-handheld-cnc-router

Never miss an opportunity to get another cool tool/toy.

Wallace Berry[_2_]

February 1st 21, 03:56 PM

On Monday, February 1, 2021 at 8:52:53 AM UTC-6, Stuart Venters wrote:
> On 1/31/21 9:43 PM, David Shelton wrote:
> > I highly recommend a CNC router with an 1/8" burr. Amana Tool makes some nice burrs specifically for composites. Traditional milling bits tend to snag and pull on the fibers.
> >
> I wonder how one of these would do from a CAD file?
>
> https://www.rockler.com/shaper-origin-handheld-cnc-router
>
> Never miss an opportunity to get another cool tool/toy.

Oh, that thing is brilliant! Want one!

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

February 1st 21, 04:10 PM

Stuart Venters wrote on 2/1/2021 6:52 AM:
> On 1/31/21 9:43 PM, David Shelton wrote:
>> I highly recommend a CNC router with an 1/8" burr. Amana Tool makes some nice burrs
>> specifically for composites. Traditional milling bits tend to snag and pull on the fibers.
>>
>
> I wonder how one of these would do from a CAD file?
>
> https://www.rockler.com/shaper-origin-handheld-cnc-router
>
> Never miss an opportunity to get another cool tool/toy.

That is really slick. And, hey, you'd have to buy a router of some kind at some point in your
life, so why not this one? It can do panels for side-by-side gliders, too!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

February 1st 21, 04:23 PM

>> It can do panels for side-by-side gliders, too! <<

Thanks, Eric! I will keep that in mind. My current panel was laser-cut out of a thin sheet of Aluminum and has cut-outs for all the toys I need to fit.

Uli
'AS'

Kenn Sebesta

February 1st 21, 08:22 PM

> Another CAD package you can use that is FREE is ONSHAPE (onshape.com/en). It also has a bit of a learning curve (all capable CAD programs do) but for jobs of limited complexity, such as a console, you can use onshape free.
>
> Rich L.

I couldn't more strongly recommend OnShape. It's founded by the guys who founded SolidWorks. They sold off SolidWorks to Dassault, and then set about fixing all the architectural legacy mistakes. The new way of approaching parts by building in Part Studios is far more natural then SW's one-part-per-document approach.

Source: many of my friends work for OnShape, and one of the founders was their college professor.

Craig Funston[_3_]

February 3rd 21, 04:33 AM

On Monday, February 1, 2021 at 12:22:26 PM UTC-8, Kenn Sebesta wrote:
> > Another CAD package you can use that is FREE is ONSHAPE (onshape.com/en). It also has a bit of a learning curve (all capable CAD programs do) but for jobs of limited complexity, such as a console, you can use onshape free..
> >
> > Rich L.
> I couldn't more strongly recommend OnShape. It's founded by the guys who founded SolidWorks. They sold off SolidWorks to Dassault, and then set about fixing all the architectural legacy mistakes. The new way of approaching parts by building in Part Studios is far more natural then SW's one-part-per-document approach.
>
> Source: many of my friends work for OnShape, and one of the founders was their college professor.
Dave, lots of sign shops have CNC routers with a large enough bed to do a panel. Fiberglass should be easy for them.

Cheers,
Craig JN

Doug Bailey

February 5th 21, 04:26 AM

I 3D printed a CNC machine (search for MPCNC and you'll find it quicker than typing a link) that uses 3D printer hardware and circuit boards to move the router. Here's mine working...

https://youtu.be/Iyhvc_-HReQ

The table is made from hickory flooring left over from my remodel. The MPCNC is more than capable of cutting a panel in composite.

Kenn Sebesta

February 5th 21, 03:08 PM

On Thursday, February 4, 2021 at 11:26:59 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I 3D printed a CNC machine (search for MPCNC and you'll find it quicker than typing a link) that uses 3D printer hardware and circuit boards to move the router. Here's mine working...
>
> https://youtu.be/Iyhvc_-HReQ
>
> The table is made from hickory flooring left over from my remodel. The MPCNC is more than capable of cutting a panel in composite.

MPCNC is awesome. The LowRider (which is the one I built, https://forum.v1engineering.com/t/modular-lowrider-build-can-use-any-steel-tubing-from-18mm-1-2-emt-to-32mm-1-25/23253/2) might be more appropriate for a instrument panel, depending on the dimensions. For those who haven't read about them yet, they're the same but the smaller MPCNC will hold tolerances better, while the LowRider can do full 8x4' panel cutting.

The cool thing about either is that you can swap out the metal tubes to change its size. So someone could make it big for a one-off, and then go back to desktop size.

February 6th 21, 09:04 PM

On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 7:08:13 AM UTC-8, Kenn Sebesta wrote:
> On Thursday, February 4, 2021 at 11:26:59 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > I 3D printed a CNC machine (search for MPCNC and you'll find it quicker than typing a link) that uses 3D printer hardware and circuit boards to move the router. Here's mine working...
> >
> > https://youtu.be/Iyhvc_-HReQ
> >
> > The table is made from hickory flooring left over from my remodel. The MPCNC is more than capable of cutting a panel in composite.
> MPCNC is awesome. The LowRider (which is the one I built, https://forum.v1engineering.com/t/modular-lowrider-build-can-use-any-steel-tubing-from-18mm-1-2-emt-to-32mm-1-25/23253/2) might be more appropriate for a instrument panel, depending on the dimensions. For those who haven't read about them yet, they're the same but the smaller MPCNC will hold tolerances better, while the LowRider can do full 8x4' panel cutting.
>
> The cool thing about either is that you can swap out the metal tubes to change its size. So someone could make it big for a one-off, and then go back to desktop size.

Here is a video on how to build an MPCNC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_atw3e0nIrg

Here is another video on how to fix the problems in that MPCNC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDnGvhdGFEY

Tom

February 6th 21, 09:40 PM

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 1:05:00 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 7:08:13 AM UTC-8, Kenn Sebesta wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 4, 2021 at 11:26:59 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > I 3D printed a CNC machine (search for MPCNC and you'll find it quicker than typing a link) that uses 3D printer hardware and circuit boards to move the router. Here's mine working...
> > >
> > > https://youtu.be/Iyhvc_-HReQ
> > >
> > > The table is made from hickory flooring left over from my remodel. The MPCNC is more than capable of cutting a panel in composite.
> > MPCNC is awesome. The LowRider (which is the one I built, https://forum..v1engineering.com/t/modular-lowrider-build-can-use-any-steel-tubing-from-18mm-1-2-emt-to-32mm-1-25/23253/2) might be more appropriate for a instrument panel, depending on the dimensions. For those who haven't read about them yet, they're the same but the smaller MPCNC will hold tolerances better, while the LowRider can do full 8x4' panel cutting.
> >
> > The cool thing about either is that you can swap out the metal tubes to change its size. So someone could make it big for a one-off, and then go back to desktop size.
> Here is a video on how to build an MPCNC:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_atw3e0nIrg
>
> Here is another video on how to fix the problems in that MPCNC:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDnGvhdGFEY
>
> Tom

Here is a manufactured CNC at an incredible price:

https://www.toolots.com/cnc-3018-mini-laser-engraving-machine-pcb-milling-machine.html?cid=9952931480&gclid=Cj0KCQiAmfmABhCHARIsACwPRAD5OEHUi6TTOr7s7Hk5 ZXcu_r2XkfVtr7Jl_44nHp0VfH_XrRz1EBwaAtKUEALw_wcB

Tom

February 6th 21, 09:41 PM

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 1:40:31 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 1:05:00 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 7:08:13 AM UTC-8, Kenn Sebesta wrote:
> > > On Thursday, February 4, 2021 at 11:26:59 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > > I 3D printed a CNC machine (search for MPCNC and you'll find it quicker than typing a link) that uses 3D printer hardware and circuit boards to move the router. Here's mine working...
> > > >
> > > > https://youtu.be/Iyhvc_-HReQ
> > > >
> > > > The table is made from hickory flooring left over from my remodel. The MPCNC is more than capable of cutting a panel in composite.
> > > MPCNC is awesome. The LowRider (which is the one I built, https://forum.v1engineering.com/t/modular-lowrider-build-can-use-any-steel-tubing-from-18mm-1-2-emt-to-32mm-1-25/23253/2) might be more appropriate for a instrument panel, depending on the dimensions. For those who haven't read about them yet, they're the same but the smaller MPCNC will hold tolerances better, while the LowRider can do full 8x4' panel cutting.
> > >
> > > The cool thing about either is that you can swap out the metal tubes to change its size. So someone could make it big for a one-off, and then go back to desktop size.
> > Here is a video on how to build an MPCNC:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_atw3e0nIrg
> >
> > Here is another video on how to fix the problems in that MPCNC:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDnGvhdGFEY
> >
> > Tom
> Here is a manufactured CNC at an incredible price:
>
> https://www.toolots.com/cnc-3018-mini-laser-engraving-machine-pcb-milling-machine.html?cid=9952931480&gclid=Cj0KCQiAmfmABhCHARIsACwPRAD5OEHUi6TTOr7s7Hk5 ZXcu_r2XkfVtr7Jl_44nHp0VfH_XrRz1EBwaAtKUEALw_wcB
>
> Tom

And here is a tutorial on how to use GRBL:

https://howtomechatronics.com/tutorials/how-to-setup-grbl-control-cnc-machine-with-arduino/

Tom

Michael Bamberg

February 9th 21, 10:50 PM

February 16th 21, 03:45 AM

On Tuesday, February 9, 2021 at 2:50:47 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 1:40:31 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 1:05:00 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 7:08:13 AM UTC-8, Kenn Sebesta wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, February 4, 2021 at 11:26:59 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > > > I 3D printed a CNC machine (search for MPCNC and you'll find it quicker than typing a link) that uses 3D printer hardware and circuit boards to move the router. Here's mine working...
> > > > >
> > > > > https://youtu.be/Iyhvc_-HReQ
> > > > >
> > > > > The table is made from hickory flooring left over from my remodel.. The MPCNC is more than capable of cutting a panel in composite.
> > > > MPCNC is awesome. The LowRider (which is the one I built, https://forum.v1engineering.com/t/modular-lowrider-build-can-use-any-steel-tubing-from-18mm-1-2-emt-to-32mm-1-25/23253/2) might be more appropriate for a instrument panel, depending on the dimensions. For those who haven't read about them yet, they're the same but the smaller MPCNC will hold tolerances better, while the LowRider can do full 8x4' panel cutting.
> > > >
> > > > The cool thing about either is that you can swap out the metal tubes to change its size. So someone could make it big for a one-off, and then go back to desktop size.
> > > Here is a video on how to build an MPCNC:
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_atw3e0nIrg
> > >
> > > Here is another video on how to fix the problems in that MPCNC:
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDnGvhdGFEY
> > >
> > > Tom
> > Here is a manufactured CNC at an incredible price:
> >
> > https://www.toolots.com/cnc-3018-mini-laser-engraving-machine-pcb-milling-machine.html?cid=9952931480&gclid=Cj0KCQiAmfmABhCHARIsACwPRAD5OEHUi6TTOr7s7Hk5 ZXcu_r2XkfVtr7Jl_44nHp0VfH_XrRz1EBwaAtKUEALw_wcB
> >
> > Tom
> That one is much too small for instrument panels!

The dimensions aren't given, but you might be able to mill the panel in two passes. In any event, it's a hell of a price for general purpose use.

Tom

jfitch

February 16th 21, 04:55 PM

General purpose use? A small desktop hobby mill-drill weighs about 500 lbs. A small repair shop mill weighs about 2000 lbs. The lightest weight production mill starts at around 5000 lbs. That is a Mattel toy, good for paper, cardboard, soft wood, perhaps very thin aluminum if you are not in a hurry. It might chew through some thin fiberglass given time and loose tolerances, but I'd not confuse it with a general purpose use mill.

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 7:45:04 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> The dimensions aren't given, but you might be able to mill the panel in two passes. In any event, it's a hell of a price for general purpose use.
>
> Tom

Dave Nadler

February 17th 21, 12:56 AM

On 1/26/2021 8:56 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> Anybody able to recommend a USA company that can do automated panel
> cutting (from CAD)? Or maybe in Canada? Fiberglass panel, typical glider
> panel overall size, flat surface with uniform depth flange.
> Thanks!

Thanks to Billy for recommending SendCutSend https://sendcutsend.com/
in Reno, NV - ridiculously inexpensive and very high quality from
Billy's experience.

When it comes time, what I'll do is:
1) get a steel template laser cut by these guys (from my DXF)
2) clamp it to the panel and use it as a guide to
drill all the mounting holes in a drill press.
3) remove the template, then reattach with stand-offs
4) use a small router to cut the instrument holes

Hope that helps someone, and thanks again Billy!

Tango Eight

February 17th 21, 12:58 PM

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 7:56:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On 1/26/2021 8:56 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > Anybody able to recommend a USA company that can do automated panel
> > cutting (from CAD)? Or maybe in Canada? Fiberglass panel, typical glider
> > panel overall size, flat surface with uniform depth flange.
> > Thanks!
> Thanks to Billy for recommending SendCutSend https://sendcutsend.com/
> in Reno, NV - ridiculously inexpensive and very high quality from
> Billy's experience.
>
> When it comes time, what I'll do is:
> 1) get a steel template laser cut by these guys (from my DXF)
> 2) clamp it to the panel and use it as a guide to
> drill all the mounting holes in a drill press.
> 3) remove the template, then reattach with stand-offs
> 4) use a small router to cut the instrument holes
>
> Hope that helps someone, and thanks again Billy!

I'm going to chuckle all day about this one. Nice finesse by the laser shop. Possibly brilliant. They get some work, maybe open a new market, don't have to screw around with a customer's easily trashed part.

I would use sanding drums in the drill press rather than a router. Something fairly big (1/4 hole dia or larger). Clamp the guide flush for that and remove most material with a hole saw, then finish with sanding drum. Start with a fairly low speed (it won't take a lot of speed).

T8

Hank Nixon

February 17th 21, 02:19 PM

On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 7:58:58 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 7:56:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > On 1/26/2021 8:56 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > > Anybody able to recommend a USA company that can do automated panel
> > > cutting (from CAD)? Or maybe in Canada? Fiberglass panel, typical glider
> > > panel overall size, flat surface with uniform depth flange.
> > > Thanks!
> > Thanks to Billy for recommending SendCutSend https://sendcutsend.com/
> > in Reno, NV - ridiculously inexpensive and very high quality from
> > Billy's experience.
> >
> > When it comes time, what I'll do is:
> > 1) get a steel template laser cut by these guys (from my DXF)
> > 2) clamp it to the panel and use it as a guide to
> > drill all the mounting holes in a drill press.
> > 3) remove the template, then reattach with stand-offs
> > 4) use a small router to cut the instrument holes
> >
> > Hope that helps someone, and thanks again Billy!
> I'm going to chuckle all day about this one. Nice finesse by the laser shop. Possibly brilliant. They get some work, maybe open a new market, don't have to screw around with a customer's easily trashed part.
>
> I would use sanding drums in the drill press rather than a router. Something fairly big (1/4 hole dia or larger). Clamp the guide flush for that and remove most material with a hole saw, then finish with sanding drum. Start with a fairly low speed (it won't take a lot of speed).
>
> T8
I use a CAD plotted paper template secured to the panel with double stick tape. Then a drill press for mounting holes and creation of rough openings to within about 1/16 inch. Finish off with 1-1/2 diameter drum sander to bring to the line. Normally only a small amount of hand work to refine to finished.
It takes an afternoon to do a glass panel. There are also punches available for the common instrument sizes. They are fairly expensive but much less so than making so do it yourself CAM system. For aluminum punching is much less tedious.
UH

February 17th 21, 05:50 PM

On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 6:19:03 AM UTC-8, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 7:58:58 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 7:56:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > On 1/26/2021 8:56 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > > > Anybody able to recommend a USA company that can do automated panel
> > > > cutting (from CAD)? Or maybe in Canada? Fiberglass panel, typical glider
> > > > panel overall size, flat surface with uniform depth flange.
> > > > Thanks!
> > > Thanks to Billy for recommending SendCutSend https://sendcutsend.com/
> > > in Reno, NV - ridiculously inexpensive and very high quality from
> > > Billy's experience.
> > >
> > > When it comes time, what I'll do is:
> > > 1) get a steel template laser cut by these guys (from my DXF)
> > > 2) clamp it to the panel and use it as a guide to
> > > drill all the mounting holes in a drill press.
> > > 3) remove the template, then reattach with stand-offs
> > > 4) use a small router to cut the instrument holes
> > >
> > > Hope that helps someone, and thanks again Billy!
> > I'm going to chuckle all day about this one. Nice finesse by the laser shop. Possibly brilliant. They get some work, maybe open a new market, don't have to screw around with a customer's easily trashed part.
> >
> > I would use sanding drums in the drill press rather than a router. Something fairly big (1/4 hole dia or larger). Clamp the guide flush for that and remove most material with a hole saw, then finish with sanding drum. Start with a fairly low speed (it won't take a lot of speed).
> >
> > T8
> I use a CAD plotted paper template secured to the panel with double stick tape. Then a drill press for mounting holes and creation of rough openings to within about 1/16 inch. Finish off with 1-1/2 diameter drum sander to bring to the line. Normally only a small amount of hand work to refine to finished.
> It takes an afternoon to do a glass panel. There are also punches available for the common instrument sizes. They are fairly expensive but much less so than making so do it yourself CAM system. For aluminum punching is much less tedious.
> UH
Anyone try an instrument hole thrust punch? https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/ats123chole.php Surprised no one has brought it up yet. And has anyone used one of these on fiberglass and how did it go?

Mike Carris[_2_]

February 17th 21, 06:31 PM

On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 10:50:45 AM UTC-7, Me wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 6:19:03 AM UTC-8, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 7:58:58 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 7:56:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > > On 1/26/2021 8:56 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > > > > Anybody able to recommend a USA company that can do automated panel
> > > > > cutting (from CAD)? Or maybe in Canada? Fiberglass panel, typical glider
> > > > > panel overall size, flat surface with uniform depth flange.
> > > > > Thanks!
> > > > Thanks to Billy for recommending SendCutSend https://sendcutsend.com/
> > > > in Reno, NV - ridiculously inexpensive and very high quality from
> > > > Billy's experience.
> > > >
> > > > When it comes time, what I'll do is:
> > > > 1) get a steel template laser cut by these guys (from my DXF)
> > > > 2) clamp it to the panel and use it as a guide to
> > > > drill all the mounting holes in a drill press.
> > > > 3) remove the template, then reattach with stand-offs
> > > > 4) use a small router to cut the instrument holes
> > > >
> > > > Hope that helps someone, and thanks again Billy!
> > > I'm going to chuckle all day about this one. Nice finesse by the laser shop. Possibly brilliant. They get some work, maybe open a new market, don't have to screw around with a customer's easily trashed part.
> > >
> > > I would use sanding drums in the drill press rather than a router. Something fairly big (1/4 hole dia or larger). Clamp the guide flush for that and remove most material with a hole saw, then finish with sanding drum. Start with a fairly low speed (it won't take a lot of speed).
> > >
> > > T8
> > I use a CAD plotted paper template secured to the panel with double stick tape. Then a drill press for mounting holes and creation of rough openings to within about 1/16 inch. Finish off with 1-1/2 diameter drum sander to bring to the line. Normally only a small amount of hand work to refine to finished.
> > It takes an afternoon to do a glass panel. There are also punches available for the common instrument sizes. They are fairly expensive but much less so than making so do it yourself CAM system. For aluminum punching is much less tedious.
> > UH
> Anyone try an instrument hole thrust punch? https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/ats123chole.php Surprised no one has brought it up yet. And has anyone used one of these on fiberglass and how did it go?

Yep worked great on my Phoebus C but it was an aluminum blank.

February 18th 21, 01:34 AM

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 8:55:23 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> General purpose use? A small desktop hobby mill-drill weighs about 500 lbs. A small repair shop mill weighs about 2000 lbs. The lightest weight production mill starts at around 5000 lbs. That is a Mattel toy, good for paper, cardboard, soft wood, perhaps very thin aluminum if you are not in a hurry. It might chew through some thin fiberglass given time and loose tolerances, but I'd not confuse it with a general purpose use mill.
> On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 7:45:04 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > The dimensions aren't given, but you might be able to mill the panel in two passes. In any event, it's a hell of a price for general purpose use.
> >
> > Tom

A friend of mine uses a similar weight CNC mill designed for wood carving to cut electronic aluminum panels (considerably more of a challenge than a glider panel). It works very well.

Tom

Michael Demeyer

February 18th 21, 07:19 PM

On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 9:50:45 AM UTC-8, Me wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 6:19:03 AM UTC-8, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 7:58:58 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 7:56:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > > On 1/26/2021 8:56 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > > > > Anybody able to recommend a USA company that can do automated panel
> > > > > cutting (from CAD)? Or maybe in Canada? Fiberglass panel, typical glider
> > > > > panel overall size, flat surface with uniform depth flange.
> > > > > Thanks!
> > > > Thanks to Billy for recommending SendCutSend https://sendcutsend.com/
> > > > in Reno, NV - ridiculously inexpensive and very high quality from
> > > > Billy's experience.
> > > >
> > > > When it comes time, what I'll do is:
> > > > 1) get a steel template laser cut by these guys (from my DXF)
> > > > 2) clamp it to the panel and use it as a guide to
> > > > drill all the mounting holes in a drill press.
> > > > 3) remove the template, then reattach with stand-offs
> > > > 4) use a small router to cut the instrument holes
> > > >
> > > > Hope that helps someone, and thanks again Billy!
> > > I'm going to chuckle all day about this one. Nice finesse by the laser shop. Possibly brilliant. They get some work, maybe open a new market, don't have to screw around with a customer's easily trashed part.
> > >
> > > I would use sanding drums in the drill press rather than a router. Something fairly big (1/4 hole dia or larger). Clamp the guide flush for that and remove most material with a hole saw, then finish with sanding drum. Start with a fairly low speed (it won't take a lot of speed).
> > >
> > > T8
> > I use a CAD plotted paper template secured to the panel with double stick tape. Then a drill press for mounting holes and creation of rough openings to within about 1/16 inch. Finish off with 1-1/2 diameter drum sander to bring to the line. Normally only a small amount of hand work to refine to finished.
> > It takes an afternoon to do a glass panel. There are also punches available for the common instrument sizes. They are fairly expensive but much less so than making so do it yourself CAM system. For aluminum punching is much less tedious.
> > UH
> Anyone try an instrument hole thrust punch? https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/ats123chole.php Surprised no one has brought it up yet. And has anyone used one of these on fiberglass and how did it go?

I have tried punches like that on a fiberglass panel when making a new panel recently for my DG300. Tested a 57mm punch (a Greenleee punch, not the one from ATS) and, while it was able to cut a hole, it was very difficult and risked cracking the panel. I ultimately use hole saws and a little hand sanding to finish the edges with good results.