Tales Of The Bloody Triangle

[[email protected]]

I have been around this game for a bit and have made all kind of flights, straight out flights, out and return flights, and the Bloody Triangle. I must say that the most difficult of them all is the declared triangle with minimum leg distances. Without a doubt the triangle is the most challenging of all.
Yes, you can run up and down the ridge, go straight out or go out and return, all are good flights, but the big triangle is the Bloody prize. What do you think?

[[email protected]]

Well, the triangle is the strongest geometric shape so it should be tough!

[Mads]

torsdag den 4. februar 2021 kl. 04.33.44 UTC+1 skrev :
> Well, the triangle is the strongest geometric shape so it should be tough!

My contribution to the triangle story :-).
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7737834

Best regards Mads

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 11:59:35 PM UTC-8, Mads wrote:
> torsdag den 4. februar 2021 kl. 04.33.44 UTC+1 skrev :
> > Well, the triangle is the strongest geometric shape so it should be tough!
> My contribution to the triangle story :-).
> https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7737834
>
> Best regards Mads

While I agree a declared FAI triangle is the most challenging, the long out and return also deserves special recognition. For a given distance, the O&R requires you to fly the furthest from your final destination possible. Also a 1000km O&R will normally take you to different weather.
It feels insane to be 300 miles from home and still fly in the opposite direction...

Ramy

[[email protected]]

> It feels insane to be 300 miles from home and still fly in the opposite direction...
>
> Ramy

Perhaps even more insane to do a straight out and expect your friends to come and pick you up!

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, February 4, 2021 at 3:20:39 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 11:59:35 PM UTC-8, Mads wrote:
> > torsdag den 4. februar 2021 kl. 04.33.44 UTC+1 skrev :
> > > Well, the triangle is the strongest geometric shape so it should be tough!
> > My contribution to the triangle story :-).
> > https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7737834
> >
> > Best regards Mads
> While I agree a declared FAI triangle is the most challenging, the long out and return also deserves special recognition. For a given distance, the O&R requires you to fly the furthest from your final destination possible. Also a 1000km O&R will normally take you to different weather.
> It feels insane to be 300 miles from home and still fly in the opposite direction...
>
> Ramy

I would also rate the out and return as second on the list because of distance and weather, the WX component of the triangle also adds to its level of difficulty. Wind is a big factor for both O&R and triangle, a bit more so for the triangle, IMHO. The straight out is the least difficult, kind of like strapping a chimp into a rocket and saying, "Here Ya Go Joe, Enjoy The Ride".

[Moshe Braner]

On 2/3/2021 4:45 PM, wrote:
> I have been around this game for a bit and have made all kind of flights, straight out flights, out and return flights, and the Bloody Triangle. I must say that the most difficult of them all is the declared triangle with minimum leg distances. Without a doubt the triangle is the most challenging of all.
> Yes, you can run up and down the ridge, go straight out or go out and return, all are good flights, but the big triangle is the Bloody prize. What do you think?
>

Seeing the subject line and your location I thought you were talking
about the Bermuda Triangle...

I've always thought the pre-declared triangle is the best XC challenge.
And to make it even harder, I insisted on making the start/finish
point an apex of the triangle. I.e., no "start on leg".

I did 300km that way a while back, pre-declared to myself. 22 years
later I did it again, even slower, but officially recognized. Not in
the 1000km league Ramy is in, but a good challenge with my 12.6m wings
in the Eastern US. Now I need to do it again, faster - hopefully faster
than my glider's stall speed :-)

With such a triangle you get almost as far away from home as with an
O&R, and having to venture in two different directions you are likely to
enter different weather - and to suffer a headwind on at least one leg.
All this should be considered in the planning of the task before
declaration - another challenge.

Somewhere I've seen an informal club contest scheme, can't remember what
it was called (not the currently discussed "Proving Grounds"), where
this was formalized, in that the same distance got more points if an
O&R, and even more points if an FAI triangle. The current OLC doesn't
quite do that, but does add some points to closed-course flights for the
largest enclosed FAI triangle.

[MNLou]

In defense of the Downwind Dash -

1) You tend to have to fly over much more unfamiliar terrain.
2) It's a big leap to take off and, even with a goal, have no idea where you are actually going to land. (A big thank you to Tony Condon for encouraging pilots to get over this hump.)
3) A possible multi-day retrieve is a major commitment to the flight.

Lou

[Tango Whisky]

Nice one !

Le jeudi 4 février 2021 Ã* 08:59:35 UTC+1, Mads a écritÂ*:
> torsdag den 4. februar 2021 kl. 04.33.44 UTC+1 skrev :
> > Well, the triangle is the strongest geometric shape so it should be tough!
> My contribution to the triangle story :-).
> https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7737834
>
> Best regards Mads

[Tango Eight]

Just for Bob, the ASW-20 fan: https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=5130184 (600 km declared).

Stopped a little short of 3rd declared TP (declaration was for 650km) on this one, but got free triangle state record: https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=5911937

T8

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, February 4, 2021 at 11:58:56 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Just for Bob, the ASW-20 fan: https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=5130184 (600 km declared).
>
> Stopped a little short of 3rd declared TP (declaration was for 650km) on this one, but got free triangle state record: https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=5911937
>
> T8

Yes Evan, I am an ASW20 fan, the GOAT still performs and without one of sustainer engines. When you see a triangle like that with mostly even legs it is impressive, I do not give out many compliments, but that one gets a big compliment from me, very nice flight. The OLC comes up a bit short when scoring triangles, and I wish the purist was more heavily weighted. Nice Bloody Triangle!

[Al Tyler 8H]

On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 4:45:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I have been around this game for a bit and have made all kind of flights, straight out flights, out and return flights, and the Bloody Triangle. I must say that the most difficult of them all is the declared triangle with minimum leg distances. Without a doubt the triangle is the most challenging of all.
> Yes, you can run up and down the ridge, go straight out or go out and return, all are good flights, but the big triangle is the Bloody prize. What do you think?

[MNLou]

Should east coast triangles that use the ridge be discounted because they are easier to complete than triangles that use only thermals on all 3 sides?

Flame suit on:)

Lou

PS - Great flight Evan!

[Mark Mocho]

On Thursday, February 4, 2021 at 6:44:57 PM UTC-7, MNLou wrote:
> Should east coast triangles that use the ridge be discounted because they are easier to complete than triangles that use only thermals on all 3 sides?
>
> Flame suit on:)
>
> Lou
>
> PS - Great flight Evan!

I really don't care what kind of lift is used along any leg of a triangle, simply because the nature of an FAI triangle requires at least one upwind leg, with minimum and maximum percentages of each leg to qualify as a triangle. A 500 km ridge run with only a 20 km deviation from the flown course results in a pretty anemic FAI triangle distance. OLC scores triangles pretty much the same. If it's blowing hard enough for ridge lift to give an advantage during one leg, it is likely that one of the other legs will be into a stiff headwind. Plus, the "handicapping" of a ridge lift leg would generate enough controversy and heated blather from different know-it-all commentators that a pretty decent soaring day could be had by those hovering overhead.

[Moshe Braner]

On Thursday, February 4, 2021 at 8:44:57 PM UTC-5, MNLou wrote:
> Should east coast triangles that use the ridge be discounted because they are easier to complete than triangles that use only thermals on all 3 sides?
>
> Flame suit on:)
>
> Lou
>
> PS - Great flight Evan!

How about adding points for how many states you fly in during the same flight? We in the little Eastern states need SOME advantage :-) From where I (and Evan) fly, we fly in 3 states to do a 250 km O&R: https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7862704
Or a 300km triangle: https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7266702

[Tango Eight]

Here's a mixed mode triangle. Very cool flight by W3 https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7820733

T8

[John Good]

> Should east coast triangles that use the ridge be discounted ... ?

I recall a long-ago comment from Wally Scott (probably the all-time master of the downwind dash). He felt that the value of the 1000-km Diplome was being watered down by flights that used ridge and wave. He suggested that maybe these should be recognized in a different category from flights done only in thermal lift.

Tom Knauff gave a cogent reply, along these lines: "It will be time to listen to Wally on this subject when he starts flying his long straight-out flights upwind, instead of downwind."

[[email protected]]

On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 3:20:30 PM UTC-5, John Good wrote:
> > Should east coast triangles that use the ridge be discounted ... ?
>
> I recall a long-ago comment from Wally Scott (probably the all-time master of the downwind dash). He felt that the value of the 1000-km Diplome was being watered down by flights that used ridge and wave. He suggested that maybe these should be recognized in a different category from flights done only in thermal lift.
>
> Tom Knauff gave a cogent reply, along these lines: "It will be time to listen to Wally on this subject when he starts flying his long straight-out flights upwind, instead of downwind."

Wally did much more than downwind dashes, Wally was absolutely correct when it came to assessing the value of the ridge flight vs thermal and straight out flights. I met Wally back in the 80's, a true gentleman and avid glider pilot.

[Dan Marotta]

We South westerners can do a 5 state flight. That would starting at
Dalhard, TX and flying north through Oklahoma into Kansas, turning left
and hitting Colorado, before turning south to New Mexico and then back
to Texas. Would that garner a few extra points?

They used to have organized safaris to Dalhart just for that purpose.

<b>Dan
5J
</b>

On 2/4/21 7:44 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On Thursday, February 4, 2021 at 8:44:57 PM UTC-5, MNLou wrote:
>> Should east coast triangles that use the ridge be discounted because they are easier to complete than triangles that use only thermals on all 3 sides?
>>
>> Flame suit on:)
>>
>> Lou
>>
>> PS - Great flight Evan!
>
> How about adding points for how many states you fly in during the same flight? We in the little Eastern states need SOME advantage :-) From where I (and Evan) fly, we fly in 3 states to do a 250 km O&R: https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7862704
> Or a 300km triangle: https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=7266702
>

[AS]

On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 9:47:37 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> We South westerners can do a 5 state flight. That would starting at
> Dalhard, TX and flying north through Oklahoma into Kansas, turning left
> and hitting Colorado, before turning south to New Mexico and then back
> to Texas. Would that garner a few extra points?
>
> They used to have organized safaris to Dalhart just for that purpose.
> >

Depending on where you start in Europe, you can easily cover several countries. Flights from the NW part of Germany covering The Netherlands, Belgium, France and Luxemburg are not uncommon. In the southern part of Germany, flights across Austria into Italy and back are possible.
There were even flights from Europe across the Mediterranean Sea to northern Africa.
Would crossing international borders or even inter-continental flights earn any bonus points?

Uli
'AS'

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 2/5/2021 5:55 PM:
> On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 3:20:30 PM UTC-5, John Good wrote:
>>> Should east coast triangles that use the ridge be discounted ... ?
>>
>> I recall a long-ago comment from Wally Scott (probably the all-time master of the downwind dash). He felt that the value of the 1000-km Diplome was being watered down by flights that used ridge and wave. He suggested that maybe these should be recognized in a different category from flights done only in thermal lift.
>>
>> Tom Knauff gave a cogent reply, along these lines: "It will be time to listen to Wally on this subject when he starts flying his long straight-out flights upwind, instead of downwind."
>
> Wally did much more than downwind dashes, Wally was absolutely correct when it came to assessing the value of the ridge flight vs thermal and straight out flights. I met Wally back in the 80's, a true gentleman and avid glider pilot.
>
I don't see how downwind dashes is inherently more difficult or more worthy of admiration than
long ridge flights. Wally lived in an area ideal for downwind thermal dashes, and I'm guessing
if he had lived near Karl and Knauff, he would have flown some amazing ridge flights, and might
have thought "dirty downwind dashes" were diluting the value of a 1000k diplome. Why not say
using a Open class glider (which he did) instead of a 1-26 for the downwind dashes was diluting
the 1000k diplome?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Dan Marotta]

No... But they might get you a close up view of an F-16!

Dan
5J

On 2/5/21 8:26 PM, AS wrote:
> Would crossing international borders or even inter-continental flights earn any bonus points?

[AS]

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 10:41:40 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:

>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 2/5/21 8:26 PM, AS wrote:
> > Would crossing international borders or even inter-continental flights earn any bonus points?
>> > No... But they might get you a close up view of an F-16!

A lot has changed since you were frozen .... ;-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et-s_GnUNBw

Uli
'AS'

[Steve Koerner]

I can add a tidbit about planning bloody long triangles...

I'm now using SkySight weather software. It has some very cool features that have been added. You are able to position turnpoints are arbitrary locations within SkySight and the software will predict your speed around the course as well as advise the optimum start time and thereby inferring from that, whether or not the course is even doable in the day's available weather window. When a day is in prospect, I'm testing triangles in different directions and different geometries to see which produces the best speed. Once I have a general plan then it comes down to fine tuning by massaging the positions of a remote start/finish and the three TPs to get an optimal result. Thereupon, the selected coordinates can be saved within SkySight to a turnpoint file and uploaded to the flight computer for declaration.

If there are several successive days that are in prospect, then I do this speed simulation for each day and pick the best day to fly as I don't generally have the energy to fly long triangles attempt on successive days; I need to pick the best day to make an attempt.

As good as the software is, it's not perfect. No weather tool is able to get over-development and thunderstorms forecasted accurately as to where exactly the blowups will happen. So it's always a bit of a craps shot. It is necessary that the storm index / OD potential not be too high or you are almost certain to be blocked at some point when flying a triangle to declared turnpoints. It is quite different than OLC flying where a storm in one direction just means you change course to fly in the best air. Without that option, declared triangles are surely the toughest to get done.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 2:52:07 PM UTC-5, Steve Koerner wrote:
> I can add a tidbit about planning bloody long triangles...
>
> I'm now using SkySight weather software. It has some very cool features that have been added. You are able to position turnpoints are arbitrary locations within SkySight and the software will predict your speed around the course as well as advise the optimum start time and thereby inferring from that, whether or not the course is even doable in the day's available weather window. When a day is in prospect, I'm testing triangles in different directions and different geometries to see which produces the best speed. Once I have a general plan then it comes down to fine tuning by massaging the positions of a remote start/finish and the three TPs to get an optimal result. Thereupon, the selected coordinates can be saved within SkySight to a turnpoint file and uploaded to the flight computer for declaration.
>
> If there are several successive days that are in prospect, then I do this speed simulation for each day and pick the best day to fly as I don't generally have the energy to fly long triangles attempt on successive days; I need to pick the best day to make an attempt.
>
> As good as the software is, it's not perfect. No weather tool is able to get over-development and thunderstorms forecasted accurately as to where exactly the blowups will happen. So it's always a bit of a craps shot. It is necessary that the storm index / OD potential not be too high or you are almost certain to be blocked at some point when flying a triangle to declared turnpoints. It is quite different than OLC flying where a storm in one direction just means you change course to fly in the best air. Without that option, declared triangles are surely the toughest to get done.

Steve, you are absolutely correct about the Bloody Triangle. I sometimes see good flights with little or miniscule triangle values. I have always flown mostly triangles and mostly try to stretch the legs out for a respectable distance. Here in Florida we are somewhat handicapped by lower bases and large bodies of water. Triangles here are very different and I consider more challenging than many other soaring areas. I looked back at one of you triangular flights from past and smiled as I saw three pretty much equal legs, nice job. Bob

[5Z]

Another thing to add to OLC and triangles is that it keeps track of declared triangle fight for the BHC (Barron Hilton Cup). So yet another place to compete on OLC.

Most days I'll declare an ambitious triangle and set it up in the flight computer as an area task with large circles. That way, the computer is keeping track of my progress and if the weather is not as good as expected, I just cut the corners. If it's better than expected, I fly deep into one or both turn areas to get more OLC points, but make sure I get in the OZ for the declared task in order to get the BHC score.

5Z

[[email protected]]

On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 4:13:28 PM UTC-5, 5Z wrote:
> Another thing to add to OLC and triangles is that it keeps track of declared triangle fight for the BHC (Barron Hilton Cup). So yet another place to compete on OLC.
>
> Most days I'll declare an ambitious triangle and set it up in the flight computer as an area task with large circles. That way, the computer is keeping track of my progress and if the weather is not as good as expected, I just cut the corners. If it's better than expected, I fly deep into one or both turn areas to get more OLC points, but make sure I get in the OZ for the declared task in order to get the BHC score.
>
> 5Z

This is what really ticks me off even a bit more than the" Apology", Turnpoint circles, at this age am having difficulty seeing where a turnpoint circle is any benefit to a triangular objective. What ever happened to the day when we took our 120 film and waited until the next day for the director to tell you that you did not make the turn. Liberalism has invaded the glider world, now you do not have to reach the turnpoint but just get close, hey, what are they doing, pitching hand grenades, only close counts. Hey, bring back the good ole days, start gate, turnpoint verification and the best guy wins. At this time I must say congratulations to GB for a nice triangle out of the Seminole Lake Motor Glider facility. Finally I see a triangle out of that place. I am so glad that I am having a positive influence on those guys. Bob

[Jason Leonard]

Bob,
Boy am I glad I've figured out how to post on here. I sure do appreciate the wisdom you've passed on, even in my green state in soaring. Hopefully this comes through correctly. I'm looking forward to more tows and hopefully a paired flight on an out and back to get my feet wet. I'll be rereading your article from the wave flight in Florida on my way LAX-ATL to stay awake tonight. See ya buddy.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 2/11/2021 12:56 PM:
> On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 4:13:28 PM UTC-5, 5Z wrote:
>> Another thing to add to OLC and triangles is that it keeps track of declared triangle fight for the BHC (Barron Hilton Cup). So yet another place to compete on OLC.
>>
>> Most days I'll declare an ambitious triangle and set it up in the flight computer as an area task with large circles. That way, the computer is keeping track of my progress and if the weather is not as good as expected, I just cut the corners. If it's better than expected, I fly deep into one or both turn areas to get more OLC points, but make sure I get in the OZ for the declared task in order to get the BHC score.
>>
>> 5Z
>
> This is what really ticks me off even a bit more than the" Apology", Turnpoint circles, at this age am having difficulty seeing where a turnpoint circle is any benefit to a triangular objective. What ever happened to the day when we took our 120 film and waited until the next day for the director to tell you that you did not make the turn. Liberalism has invaded the glider world, now you do not have to reach the turnpoint but just get close, hey, what are they doing, pitching hand grenades, only close counts. Hey, bring back the good ole days, start gate, turnpoint verification and the best guy wins. At this time I must say congratulations to GB for a nice triangle out of the Seminole Lake Motor Glider facility. Finally I see a triangle out of that place. I am so glad that I am having a positive influence on those guys. Bob
>
They used turnpoints you had to go to because they had no way of determining where you went
otherwise. They used to have observers at the turnpoints! And even when they began using
cameras, they had to have a point they could recognize on the film. They didn't choose that
turnpoint system because they liked it so much, or because it was "pure", but because they
could make it work. GPS changed what we could make work. Shoot, in the really old days - no
turnpoints! You just flew as far as you could.

You prefer the old system, but the new system has advantages, so that's what we use now. I
liked contest flying better when we had mostly assigned tasks, and we had to go to an actual
point, but that system had it's problems, and I can see changing it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Moshe Braner]

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:32:35 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> wrote on 2/11/2021 12:56 PM:
> >
> > This is what really ticks me off even a bit more than the" Apology", Turnpoint circles, at this age am having difficulty seeing where a turnpoint circle is any benefit to a triangular objective. What ever happened to the day when we took our 120 film and waited until the next day for the director to tell you that you did not make the turn. Liberalism has invaded the glider world, now you do not have to reach the turnpoint but just get close, hey, what are they doing, pitching hand grenades, only close counts. Hey, bring back the good ole days, start gate, turnpoint verification and the best guy wins. At this time I must say congratulations to GB for a nice triangle out of the Seminole Lake Motor Glider facility. Finally I see a triangle out of that place. I am so glad that I am having a positive influence on those guys. Bob
> >
> They used turnpoints you had to go to because they had no way of determining where you went
> otherwise. They used to have observers at the turnpoints! And even when they began using
> cameras, they had to have a point they could recognize on the film. They didn't choose that
> turnpoint system because they liked it so much, or because it was "pure", but because they
> could make it work. GPS changed what we could make work. Shoot, in the really old days - no
> turnpoints! You just flew as far as you could.
>
> You prefer the old system, but the new system has advantages, so that's what we use now. I
> liked contest flying better when we had mostly assigned tasks, and we had to go to an actual
> point, but that system had it's problems, and I can see changing it.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

The advantage of the Turn Area Tasks (also called Assigned Area Tasks) is that you can have a handicapped competition (Sports Class) where everybody flies the same (minimum) length of time but the higher performance gliders need to fly a longer distance. That was not possible to arrange before GPS flight logs. Some people don't like TATs or even handicapped competitions at all, so be it. On the other hand many people who want to fly in contests don't want to also have to compete with the purchasing power of richer pilots. Handicaps allow gliders of very different performance and price points to all have fun together. Given the declining number of people flying in contests, anything that attracts more of them is good for everybody.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:21:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Bob,
> Boy am I glad I've figured out how to post on here. I sure do appreciate the wisdom you've passed on, even in my green state in soaring. Hopefully this comes through correctly. I'm looking forward to more tows and hopefully a paired flight on an out and back to get my feet wet. I'll be rereading your article from the wave flight in Florida on my way LAX-ATL to stay awake tonight. See ya buddy.

Jason, will not be long until the 40 year mark arrives from the date of that memorable flight. I can still vividly recall the beautiful sight being distant from the Florida coastline and looking down at the island of Bimini. I wish that everyone could have a flight like that, it is logged in the memory bank and will never be forgotten. Recalling some of the flights that we had out of Miami makes me appreciate the friends and acquaintances through decades of enjoyment. We were nothing but a bunch of renegades, that flew almost every day, hung our love of glider flight over the Everglades only to come home most of the time to laugh and get ready to go again the next day. One day I will bring our scrapbook out for you to scroll through and laugh, most of us were 50 pounds lighter except for Eileen and Scott, and possibly Burt, they seem to be the same. The good part about this group is that we all still to this day stay in contact and all still fly gliders, not bad after all these years .
Enjoy the LAX-ATL flight, welcome to the sport, I hope you enjoy it as much as Eileen and I have. Remember, the triangle is the most difficult. Bob

[Chris Behm]

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:03:27 PM UTC-8, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:32:35 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > wrote on 2/11/2021 12:56 PM:
> > >
> > > This is what really ticks me off even a bit more than the" Apology", Turnpoint circles, at this age am having difficulty seeing where a turnpoint circle is any benefit to a triangular objective. What ever happened to the day when we took our 120 film and waited until the next day for the director to tell you that you did not make the turn. Liberalism has invaded the glider world, now you do not have to reach the turnpoint but just get close, hey, what are they doing, pitching hand grenades, only close counts. Hey, bring back the good ole days, start gate, turnpoint verification and the best guy wins. At this time I must say congratulations to GB for a nice triangle out of the Seminole Lake Motor Glider facility. Finally I see a triangle out of that place. I am so glad that I am having a positive influence on those guys. Bob
> > >
> > They used turnpoints you had to go to because they had no way of determining where you went
> > otherwise. They used to have observers at the turnpoints! And even when they began using
> > cameras, they had to have a point they could recognize on the film. They didn't choose that
> > turnpoint system because they liked it so much, or because it was "pure", but because they
> > could make it work. GPS changed what we could make work. Shoot, in the really old days - no
> > turnpoints! You just flew as far as you could.
> >
> > You prefer the old system, but the new system has advantages, so that's what we use now. I
> > liked contest flying better when we had mostly assigned tasks, and we had to go to an actual
> > point, but that system had it's problems, and I can see changing it.
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> The advantage of the Turn Area Tasks (also called Assigned Area Tasks) is that you can have a handicapped competition (Sports Class) where everybody flies the same (minimum) length of time but the higher performance gliders need to fly a longer distance. That was not possible to arrange before GPS flight logs. Some people don't like TATs or even handicapped competitions at all, so be it. On the other hand many people who want to fly in contests don't want to also have to compete with the purchasing power of richer pilots. Handicaps allow gliders of very different performance and price points to all have fun together. Given the declining number of people flying in contests, anything that attracts more of them is good for everybody.

This post seems like a really great point of view. Lower performance gliders making a smaller triangle inside of larger triangles made by a higher performance glider? What could be better? They are flying as near over the same terrain as each other, and can start and finish roughly in the same time. Seems like a real win-win to me. But I am a newbie, what do I know? Well, I know that if I am flying an LS4 I don't want to be competing directly with the 18m class over the same course. Seems logical to me. Again, a newbie with no competition experience, but this plan just makes sense to this newbie.
Kind Regards, and thanks for the interesting topic, Bob.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 3:18:19 PM UTC-5, Chris Behm wrote:
> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:03:27 PM UTC-8, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:32:35 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > wrote on 2/11/2021 12:56 PM:
> > > >
> > > > This is what really ticks me off even a bit more than the" Apology", Turnpoint circles, at this age am having difficulty seeing where a turnpoint circle is any benefit to a triangular objective. What ever happened to the day when we took our 120 film and waited until the next day for the director to tell you that you did not make the turn. Liberalism has invaded the glider world, now you do not have to reach the turnpoint but just get close, hey, what are they doing, pitching hand grenades, only close counts. Hey, bring back the good ole days, start gate, turnpoint verification and the best guy wins. At this time I must say congratulations to GB for a nice triangle out of the Seminole Lake Motor Glider facility. Finally I see a triangle out of that place. I am so glad that I am having a positive influence on those guys. Bob
> > > >
> > > They used turnpoints you had to go to because they had no way of determining where you went
> > > otherwise. They used to have observers at the turnpoints! And even when they began using
> > > cameras, they had to have a point they could recognize on the film. They didn't choose that
> > > turnpoint system because they liked it so much, or because it was "pure", but because they
> > > could make it work. GPS changed what we could make work. Shoot, in the really old days - no
> > > turnpoints! You just flew as far as you could.
> > >
> > > You prefer the old system, but the new system has advantages, so that's what we use now. I
> > > liked contest flying better when we had mostly assigned tasks, and we had to go to an actual
> > > point, but that system had it's problems, and I can see changing it.
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> > The advantage of the Turn Area Tasks (also called Assigned Area Tasks) is that you can have a handicapped competition (Sports Class) where everybody flies the same (minimum) length of time but the higher performance gliders need to fly a longer distance. That was not possible to arrange before GPS flight logs. Some people don't like TATs or even handicapped competitions at all, so be it. On the other hand many people who want to fly in contests don't want to also have to compete with the purchasing power of richer pilots. Handicaps allow gliders of very different performance and price points to all have fun together. Given the declining number of people flying in contests, anything that attracts more of them is good for everybody.
> This post seems like a really great point of view. Lower performance gliders making a smaller triangle inside of larger triangles made by a higher performance glider? What could be better? They are flying as near over the same terrain as each other, and can start and finish roughly in the same time. Seems like a real win-win to me. But I am a newbie, what do I know? Well, I know that if I am flying an LS4 I don't want to be competing directly with the 18m class over the same course. Seems logical to me. Again, a newbie with no competition experience, but this plan just makes sense to this newbie.
> Kind Regards, and thanks for the interesting topic, Bob.

Chris, don't sell yourself short on experience or glider performance, and do NOT let the big 18 meter ships fool you. One bad turn and your LS4 will have that long wing dog wondering what happened. Don't look at it as flying smaller triangles inside theirs, but fly the same or near the same and you will be surprised at how well you do compared to the big dog. I enjoy going out and flying a nice triangle in a pure glider and watching the guys from the motor glider group up in Clermont run up and down the Florida ridge following hwy 27.
I must admit that I am in their heads, just recently ZOey and the boys are hell bent on flying triangles, just look at what I accomplished, it is all in good fun. Being a bit more serious, the triangle with close to equal leg distances should be weighed more heavily than those Ivy League triangles where you have two long legs and a short hop, skip and jump third leg.
Enjoy the LS4, they are a very nice flying glider that will give you many memorable flights.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 2/13/2021 2:34 PM:
> On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 3:18:19 PM UTC-5, Chris Behm wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:03:27 PM UTC-8, Moshe Braner wrote:
>>> On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:32:35 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> wrote on 2/11/2021 12:56 PM:
>>>>>
>>>>> This is what really ticks me off even a bit more than the" Apology", Turnpoint circles, at this age am having difficulty seeing where a turnpoint circle is any benefit to a triangular objective. What ever happened to the day when we took our 120 film and waited until the next day for the director to tell you that you did not make the turn. Liberalism has invaded the glider world, now you do not have to reach the turnpoint but just get close, hey, what are they doing, pitching hand grenades, only close counts. Hey, bring back the good ole days, start gate, turnpoint verification and the best guy wins. At this time I must say congratulations to GB for a nice triangle out of the Seminole Lake Motor Glider facility. Finally I see a triangle out of that place. I am so glad that I am having a positive influence on those guys. Bob
>>>>>
>>>> They used turnpoints you had to go to because they had no way of determining where you went
>>>> otherwise. They used to have observers at the turnpoints! And even when they began using
>>>> cameras, they had to have a point they could recognize on the film. They didn't choose that
>>>> turnpoint system because they liked it so much, or because it was "pure", but because they
>>>> could make it work. GPS changed what we could make work. Shoot, in the really old days - no
>>>> turnpoints! You just flew as far as you could.
>>>>
>>>> You prefer the old system, but the new system has advantages, so that's what we use now. I
>>>> liked contest flying better when we had mostly assigned tasks, and we had to go to an actual
>>>> point, but that system had it's problems, and I can see changing it.
>>>> --
>>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>>> The advantage of the Turn Area Tasks (also called Assigned Area Tasks) is that you can have a handicapped competition (Sports Class) where everybody flies the same (minimum) length of time but the higher performance gliders need to fly a longer distance. That was not possible to arrange before GPS flight logs. Some people don't like TATs or even handicapped competitions at all, so be it. On the other hand many people who want to fly in contests don't want to also have to compete with the purchasing power of richer pilots. Handicaps allow gliders of very different performance and price points to all have fun together. Given the declining number of people flying in contests, anything that attracts more of them is good for everybody.
>> This post seems like a really great point of view. Lower performance gliders making a smaller triangle inside of larger triangles made by a higher performance glider? What could be better? They are flying as near over the same terrain as each other, and can start and finish roughly in the same time. Seems like a real win-win to me. But I am a newbie, what do I know? Well, I know that if I am flying an LS4 I don't want to be competing directly with the 18m class over the same course. Seems logical to me. Again, a newbie with no competition experience, but this plan just makes sense to this newbie.
>> Kind Regards, and thanks for the interesting topic, Bob.
>
> Chris, don't sell yourself short on experience or glider performance, and do NOT let the big 18 meter ships fool you. One bad turn and your LS4 will have that long wing dog wondering what happened. Don't look at it as flying smaller triangles inside theirs, but fly the same or near the same and you will be surprised at how well you do compared to the big dog. I enjoy going out and flying a nice triangle in a pure glider and watching the guys from the motor glider group up in Clermont run up and down the Florida ridge following hwy 27.
> I must admit that I am in their heads, just recently ZOey and the boys are hell bent on flying triangles, just look at what I accomplished, it is all in good fun. Being a bit more serious, the triangle with close to equal leg distances should be weighed more heavily than those Ivy League triangles where you have two long legs and a short hop, skip and jump third leg.
> Enjoy the LS4, they are a very nice flying glider that will give you many memorable flights.

Would you fly bigger triangles, and faster, if you knew you could easily motor home on the
occasional day you misjudged the weather? Would you take off earlier, if you knew you could
"relight" without getting into the back of the hour+ queue for the towplane? Just a sustainer
would give you those advantages, less cost, less weight, less maintenance than a self-launcher.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Jason Leonard]

Mr Greenwell,
I am with you. However, TCSC doesn't really have a queue problem with the tow plane, which in itself is a bit of a problem. We either have no one flying or everyone is out there chomping at the bit. But even then the towplane availability always seems to be a good situation. The only time the self launch will benefit me at this club will be if no one is around to haul my fat bird in the air. My goal is the be there often enough that both situations arise and I'm proficient in both. I didn't buy an airplane to let it sit.. I know that's a typical statement. I'll be darned if it sits.

I guess I'm a wimp to a degree, too, though. I am green to gliders, and I want to launch as early as possible and extract every last foot I can get -- even if it means standing still and not going anywhere. So if I get pulled up to altitude too early and there's nothing there: SkySight refresh and motor over to the good stuff. If I get high enough to soar home: awesome. If not: so be it and I'll motor high enough to glide home. I won't be missing opportunities to soar if I can help it. My goal is to fly more than the entire club combined. Big ambition, but with our local soaring weather, and the fantastic stuff that always seems to be 20 miles away from us: I think the self launch is going to enable me to enjoy this more often.

I don't get to pass up a marginal soaring day because "it isn't worth it" - If I can go flying, I want to be able to go where the soarable weather is, and then glide home if possible. Otherwise: back to FL390 and 500kts.... booooorrrring! "oh great.... another passenger not wearing a mask...." lol

If anyone comes to the TCSC event in a 2 seater, or wants to go with me in the DG505 then I'm all about it. I got a 2 seater to share the experience. And maybe sometimes that can be in reverse.

Speaking of which: Bob I don't care - I want you to go up with me buddy. Humor me and come for a ride in my adultized and fat DG! Haha!

JL

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 12:08:14 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Mr Greenwell,
> I am with you. However, TCSC doesn't really have a queue problem with the tow plane, which in itself is a bit of a problem. We either have no one flying or everyone is out there chomping at the bit. But even then the towplane availability always seems to be a good situation. The only time the self launch will benefit me at this club will be if no one is around to haul my fat bird in the air. My goal is the be there often enough that both situations arise and I'm proficient in both. I didn't buy an airplane to let it sit. I know that's a typical statement. I'll be darned if it sits.
>
> I guess I'm a wimp to a degree, too, though. I am green to gliders, and I want to launch as early as possible and extract every last foot I can get -- even if it means standing still and not going anywhere. So if I get pulled up to altitude too early and there's nothing there: SkySight refresh and motor over to the good stuff. If I get high enough to soar home: awesome. If not: so be it and I'll motor high enough to glide home. I won't be missing opportunities to soar if I can help it. My goal is to fly more than the entire club combined. Big ambition, but with our local soaring weather, and the fantastic stuff that always seems to be 20 miles away from us: I think the self launch is going to enable me to enjoy this more often.
>
> I don't get to pass up a marginal soaring day because "it isn't worth it" - If I can go flying, I want to be able to go where the soarable weather is, and then glide home if possible. Otherwise: back to FL390 and 500kts.... booooorrrring! "oh great.... another passenger not wearing a mask...." lol
>
> If anyone comes to the TCSC event in a 2 seater, or wants to go with me in the DG505 then I'm all about it. I got a 2 seater to share the experience.. And maybe sometimes that can be in reverse.
>
> Speaking of which: Bob I don't care - I want you to go up with me buddy. Humor me and come for a ride in my adultized and fat DG! Haha!
>
> JL

JL, sorry my friend but I do NOT fly motorgliders, this is my take on motorgliders! If there was a book written about glider pilots and motorgliders it would be called, "Motorgliders For Sissies", now don't take that too personal, but they just are not and should not be in the same class as the purist. Now I can hear all the motorglider guys and gals cursing me about my comments and thoughts on this somewhat inferior class of glider flight.
Have I ever been in a situation where I could have used a sustainer, YES, but they were not around back in those days. I still remember the warden of a state prison looking at me as if I were one of the inmates when I sat my glider down on the prison grounds while trying to complete my first 300 K triangle over 40 years ago. I recently was told by a good guy and fellow glider pilot that one of these days I would have a motorglider. I laughed and told him that if he ever saw me in my motorglider that I would give it to him, I hope that I don't have to eat those words someday, but if I do I will be the first one to write an apology and explain why I went to the dark side.
Your enthusiasm is addictive, you will certainly enjoy your new motorglider and soon you will be departing X52 on a nice triangle or journey around Lake O.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 7:43:30 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 12:08:14 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Mr Greenwell,
> > I am with you. However, TCSC doesn't really have a queue problem with the tow plane, which in itself is a bit of a problem. We either have no one flying or everyone is out there chomping at the bit. But even then the towplane availability always seems to be a good situation. The only time the self launch will benefit me at this club will be if no one is around to haul my fat bird in the air. My goal is the be there often enough that both situations arise and I'm proficient in both. I didn't buy an airplane to let it sit. I know that's a typical statement. I'll be darned if it sits.
> >
> > I guess I'm a wimp to a degree, too, though. I am green to gliders, and I want to launch as early as possible and extract every last foot I can get -- even if it means standing still and not going anywhere. So if I get pulled up to altitude too early and there's nothing there: SkySight refresh and motor over to the good stuff. If I get high enough to soar home: awesome.. If not: so be it and I'll motor high enough to glide home. I won't be missing opportunities to soar if I can help it. My goal is to fly more than the entire club combined. Big ambition, but with our local soaring weather, and the fantastic stuff that always seems to be 20 miles away from us: I think the self launch is going to enable me to enjoy this more often.
> >
> > I don't get to pass up a marginal soaring day because "it isn't worth it" - If I can go flying, I want to be able to go where the soarable weather is, and then glide home if possible. Otherwise: back to FL390 and 500kts..... booooorrrring! "oh great.... another passenger not wearing a mask...." lol
> >
> > If anyone comes to the TCSC event in a 2 seater, or wants to go with me in the DG505 then I'm all about it. I got a 2 seater to share the experience. And maybe sometimes that can be in reverse.
> >
> > Speaking of which: Bob I don't care - I want you to go up with me buddy.. Humor me and come for a ride in my adultized and fat DG! Haha!
> >
> > JL
> JL, sorry my friend but I do NOT fly motorgliders, this is my take on motorgliders! If there was a book written about glider pilots and motorgliders it would be called, "Motorgliders For Sissies", now don't take that too personal, but they just are not and should not be in the same class as the purist. Now I can hear all the motorglider guys and gals cursing me about my comments and thoughts on this somewhat inferior class of glider flight.
> Have I ever been in a situation where I could have used a sustainer, YES, but they were not around back in those days. I still remember the warden of a state prison looking at me as if I were one of the inmates when I sat my glider down on the prison grounds while trying to complete my first 300 K triangle over 40 years ago. I recently was told by a good guy and fellow glider pilot that one of these days I would have a motorglider. I laughed and told him that if he ever saw me in my motorglider that I would give it to him, I hope that I don't have to eat those words someday, but if I do I will be the first one to write an apology and explain why I went to the dark side.
> Your enthusiasm is addictive, you will certainly enjoy your new motorglider and soon you will be departing X52 on a nice triangle or journey around Lake O.


I am very pleased to have made an impact on the motorglider professionals at Seminole Lake Motor Glider event for the Geritol pilots. My good friend Nico just complete two days in a row of 300 k triangles with pretty much even legs to set the pace for the upcoming Seniors contest held at the Motor Glider Club in Clermont . Nico, way to go, unlike last year I did not fly on this March 11th. I have a little surprise for all you motor glider geeks at the Seniors, you and the rest of those big bogs will be once again shaking their heads saying, " Where The Hell Did He Come From"! I might even ask Eileen if I can borrow her 24 and give her my 27, just to give you guys a better advantage.
As you probably know tomorrow will begin the Soaring Safari here at the Treasure Coast Soaring Club, here in Vero Beach. I am the primary tow pilot and refreshment provider,, I just loaded up at ABC liquors for our traditional purist drink of rum and coke. We are even having gourmet hot dogs for all, so you self launch ladies can come on in have a dog and motor out to your hovel in Clermont.
I wish all of you guys well, just keep looking at those daily scores and at some point you will say, we woke him up! Have a great contest, look up on any given day and you might just see yours truly, and I will buy the drinks.. Bob