Your Opinion Would Be Appreciated

[[email protected]]

I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
Somewhat outdated panel.
A pure glider, no sustainer.
Fabric interior and not leather.
Clear canopy and not tinted.
I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?

[Jay Campbell]

On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
> What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
> This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
> Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
> Somewhat outdated panel.
> A pure glider, no sustainer.
> Fabric interior and not leather.
> Clear canopy and not tinted.
> I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
Wings and Wheels has the following guide when you actually place an ad:
Rate your aircraft Exterior on a scale of 1 to 5.
1 = Needs major work
2 = Needs some work
3 = Good condition
4 = Excellent condition
5 = Factory new condition

Based on that, only a handful of gliders currently in the US would rate a five. I've got a Discus that is almost flawless, having been hard-waxed every year. But if I had to submit an ad, I would have to rate it "4" based on the W&W system. They use the same system for rating trailers, interiors, etc. In short, "4" is GOOD.

[Mike Carris[_2_]]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:44:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
> > What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
> > This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
> > Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
> > Somewhat outdated panel.
> > A pure glider, no sustainer.
> > Fabric interior and not leather.
> > Clear canopy and not tinted.
> > I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
> Wings and Wheels has the following guide when you actually place an ad:
> Rate your aircraft Exterior on a scale of 1 to 5.
> 1 = Needs major work
> 2 = Needs some work
> 3 = Good condition
> 4 = Excellent condition
> 5 = Factory new condition
>
> Based on that, only a handful of gliders currently in the US would rate a five. I've got a Discus that is almost flawless, having been hard-waxed every year. But if I had to submit an ad, I would have to rate it "4" based on the W&W system. They use the same system for rating trailers, interiors, etc. In short, "4" is GOOD.

Bob,
As far as ratings-

If it is the one in Moriarty, it is a nice glider. It may not be as pristine as the '27 you purchased, but close . Talk to Fidel he probably rated it and will give you an honest appraisal. I believe he is acting on behalf of an estate. He refinishes gliders for a living and has a fairly stringent rating system-one mans 5 is another mans 4. It was owned by a friend (Kathy Taylor) that has passed away recently and did not fly all that often. It was always stored in her hangar and I think that in the past several years it was not flown at all.

Mike

[Kayla Hanke]

On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
> What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
> This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
> Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
> Somewhat outdated panel.
> A pure glider, no sustainer.
> Fabric interior and not leather.
> Clear canopy and not tinted.
> I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?

You can view the past sold ASG 29's on Wings and Wheels based on their asking prices ...

ASG-29 - 18M
LISTING SOLD:
2020-03-05 11:32:12
MAKE: Schleicher
MODEL: ASG-29 - 18m
YEAR: 2010
TOTAL TIME: 1009.3
INTERIOR:
EXTERIOR:
$112,000.00
USD

LISTING SOLD:
2019-01-04 09:13:38
MAKE: Schleicher
MODEL: ASG-29 - 18m
YEAR: 2006
TOTAL TIME: 1616
INTERIOR:
EXTERIOR:
$125,000.00
USD

2018-08-20 09:42:54
MAKE: Schleicher
MODEL: ASG-29 - 18m
YEAR: 2008
TOTAL TIME: 325
INTERIOR:
EXTERIOR:
$110,000.00
USD

2018-12-25 14:43:10
MAKE: Schleicher
MODEL: ASG-29 - 18m
YEAR: 2006
TOTAL TIME: 1050
INTERIOR:
EXTERIOR:
$105,000.00
USD

LISTING SOLD:
2018-03-09 18:54:14
MAKE: Schleicher
MODEL: ASG-29 - 18m
YEAR: 2012
TOTAL TIME: 250
INTERIOR:
EXTERIOR:
$125,000.00
USD

ETC ... ETC ....

[[email protected]]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 2:32:11 PM UTC-5, Mike Carris wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:44:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
> > > What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
> > > This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
> > > Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
> > > Somewhat outdated panel.
> > > A pure glider, no sustainer.
> > > Fabric interior and not leather.
> > > Clear canopy and not tinted.
> > > I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
> > Wings and Wheels has the following guide when you actually place an ad:
> > Rate your aircraft Exterior on a scale of 1 to 5.
> > 1 = Needs major work
> > 2 = Needs some work
> > 3 = Good condition
> > 4 = Excellent condition
> > 5 = Factory new condition
> >
> > Based on that, only a handful of gliders currently in the US would rate a five. I've got a Discus that is almost flawless, having been hard-waxed every year. But if I had to submit an ad, I would have to rate it "4" based on the W&W system. They use the same system for rating trailers, interiors, etc. In short, "4" is GOOD.
> Bob,
> As far as ratings-
>
> If it is the one in Moriarty, it is a nice glider. It may not be as pristine as the '27 you purchased, but close . Talk to Fidel he probably rated it and will give you an honest appraisal. I believe he is acting on behalf of an estate. He refinishes gliders for a living and has a fairly stringent rating system-one mans 5 is another mans 4. It was owned by a friend (Kathy Taylor) that has passed away recently and did not fly all that often. It was always stored in her hangar and I think that in the past several years it was not flown at all.
>
> Mike
Thanks Mike, I am very cognizant of the 29 that is being listed from the estate, There are a couple of other 29's that are coming up in the near future that will spark my interest. I also know the purchase price of the recent 29's sold during the last year and they are pretty much in the range that I would expect. Getting your asking price is one thing, but the reality of the sale is, what someone is willing to pay.
Thanks for the compliment on the 27, yes it was well taken care of both my wife and I enjoy it very much.

[Dan Marotta]

Oh, yes, and I don't recall Kathy ever flying it in wave, and it's only
been hangared in Moriarty. Think dry climate.

Dan
5J

On 2/15/21 12:32 PM, Mike Carris wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:44:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>>> I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
>>> What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
>>> This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
>>> Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
>>> Somewhat outdated panel.
>>> A pure glider, no sustainer.
>>> Fabric interior and not leather.
>>> Clear canopy and not tinted.
>>> I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
>> Wings and Wheels has the following guide when you actually place an ad:
>> Rate your aircraft Exterior on a scale of 1 to 5.
>> 1 = Needs major work
>> 2 = Needs some work
>> 3 = Good condition
>> 4 = Excellent condition
>> 5 = Factory new condition
>>
>> Based on that, only a handful of gliders currently in the US would rate a five. I've got a Discus that is almost flawless, having been hard-waxed every year. But if I had to submit an ad, I would have to rate it "4" based on the W&W system. They use the same system for rating trailers, interiors, etc. In short, "4" is GOOD.
>
> Bob,
> As far as ratings-
>
> If it is the one in Moriarty, it is a nice glider. It may not be as pristine as the '27 you purchased, but close . Talk to Fidel he probably rated it and will give you an honest appraisal. I believe he is acting on behalf of an estate. He refinishes gliders for a living and has a fairly stringent rating system-one mans 5 is another mans 4. It was owned by a friend (Kathy Taylor) that has passed away recently and did not fly all that often. It was always stored in her hangar and I think that in the past several years it was not flown at all.
>
> Mike
>

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
> What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
> This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
> Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
> Somewhat outdated panel.
> A pure glider, no sustainer.
> Fabric interior and not leather.
> Clear canopy and not tinted.
> I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?

I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:31:18 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

> I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.

.... so will the pilot!

[[email protected]]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 6:05:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:31:18 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
>
> > I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.
> ... so will the pilot!

Oh Stephen, there you go again. In 10 years I would be approaching 80 and if we flew together I would kick your ASS. So before you start throwing rocks on us senior citizens get you glider and come on down. Bob

[Mike Carris[_2_]]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 2:11:08 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 2:32:11 PM UTC-5, Mike Carris wrote:
> > On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:44:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > > I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
> > > > What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
> > > > This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
> > > > Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
> > > > Somewhat outdated panel.
> > > > A pure glider, no sustainer.
> > > > Fabric interior and not leather.
> > > > Clear canopy and not tinted.
> > > > I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
> > > Wings and Wheels has the following guide when you actually place an ad:
> > > Rate your aircraft Exterior on a scale of 1 to 5.
> > > 1 = Needs major work
> > > 2 = Needs some work
> > > 3 = Good condition
> > > 4 = Excellent condition
> > > 5 = Factory new condition
> > >
> > > Based on that, only a handful of gliders currently in the US would rate a five. I've got a Discus that is almost flawless, having been hard-waxed every year. But if I had to submit an ad, I would have to rate it "4" based on the W&W system. They use the same system for rating trailers, interiors, etc. In short, "4" is GOOD.
> > Bob,
> > As far as ratings-
> >
> > If it is the one in Moriarty, it is a nice glider. It may not be as pristine as the '27 you purchased, but close . Talk to Fidel he probably rated it and will give you an honest appraisal. I believe he is acting on behalf of an estate. He refinishes gliders for a living and has a fairly stringent rating system-one mans 5 is another mans 4. It was owned by a friend (Kathy Taylor) that has passed away recently and did not fly all that often. It was always stored in her hangar and I think that in the past several years it was not flown at all.
> >
> > Mike
> Thanks Mike, I am very cognizant of the 29 that is being listed from the estate, There are a couple of other 29's that are coming up in the near future that will spark my interest. I also know the purchase price of the recent 29's sold during the last year and they are pretty much in the range that I would expect. Getting your asking price is one thing, but the reality of the sale is, what someone is willing to pay.
> Thanks for the compliment on the 27, yes it was well taken care of both my wife and I enjoy it very much.


A nice thing about buying from an estate is that the person (rep) selling has no investment to recover and probably is not working on a commission basis.

[Hank Nixon]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:31:18 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
> > What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
> > This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
> > Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
> > Somewhat outdated panel.
> > A pure glider, no sustainer.
> > Fabric interior and not leather.
> > Clear canopy and not tinted.
> > I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
> I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.

I have a 48 year old glider that has gelcoat and still looks nice. A nice creamy white and no crazing or cracks.
If one makes a requirement of only a painted glider there are very few to select from.
UH

[Mike Carris[_2_]]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 4:40:41 PM UTC-7, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:31:18 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
> > > What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
> > > This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
> > > Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
> > > Somewhat outdated panel.
> > > A pure glider, no sustainer.
> > > Fabric interior and not leather.
> > > Clear canopy and not tinted.
> > > I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
> > I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.
> I have a 48 year old glider that has gelcoat and still looks nice. A nice creamy white and no crazing or cracks.
> If one makes a requirement of only a painted glider there are very few to select from.
> UH
Yes, I have seen two sailplanes from the same factory, same make, same model and same gelcoat. One was taken care of, buffed, Wx' blocked and sealed yearly and was still near perfect after over ten years . The other was not taken care of and had crazed gelcoat and needed a refinish. Having worked in a sailplane repair shop it has been noted that people often do not take care of their sailplanes.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 6:25:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 6:05:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:31:18 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> >
> > > I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.
> > ... so will the pilot!
> Oh Stephen, there you go again. In 10 years I would be approaching 80 and if we flew together I would kick your ASS. So before you start throwing rocks on us senior citizens get you glider and come on down. Bob

Wasn’t specifically referring to you, Bob. It was a joke ... but then they say the first thing to go is the sense of humour!

[[email protected]]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 6:25:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.
> > ... so will the pilot!
> Oh Stephen, there you go again. In 10 years I would be approaching 80 and if we flew together I would kick your ASS. So before you start throwing rocks on us senior citizens get you glider and come on down. Bob

It was a joke. It wasn’t directed specifically at you. Far too serious ... Make American Giggle Again!

[[email protected]]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 8:13:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 6:25:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > > I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.
> > > ... so will the pilot!
> > Oh Stephen, there you go again. In 10 years I would be approaching 80 and if we flew together I would kick your ASS. So before you start throwing rocks on us senior citizens get you glider and come on down. Bob
> It was a joke. It wasn’t directed specifically at you. Far too serious ... Make American Giggle Again!
Stephen, no apology needed! We all have a bit of fun, I was just throwing a grenade your way. What is soaring without a bit of fun. Take care, come on down and fly with us pirates of the Treasure Coast. Bob Rumblood

[Moshe Braner]

On 2/15/2021 6:40 PM, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:31:18 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>>> I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
>>> What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
>>> This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
>>> Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
>>> Somewhat outdated panel.
>>> A pure glider, no sustainer.
>>> Fabric interior and not leather.
>>> Clear canopy and not tinted.
>>> I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
>> I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.
>
> I have a 48 year old glider that has gelcoat and still looks nice. A nice creamy white and no crazing or cracks.
> If one makes a requirement of only a painted glider there are very few to select from.
> UH
>

It seems that a lot of old (35-45 years) gliders have had the gel coat
sanded and painted (10-20 years ago). How do they hold up after that?
Does it depend on the condition of the gelcoat before the painting? (If
it was in great condition, they wouldn't have painted it, eh?) How
should such a painted-over-gelcoat glider be treated to make that sort
of finish last?

[Mike Carris[_2_]]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 7:16:53 PM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 2/15/2021 6:40 PM, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:31:18 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> >> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> >>> I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
> >>> What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
> >>> This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
> >>> Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
> >>> Somewhat outdated panel.
> >>> A pure glider, no sustainer.
> >>> Fabric interior and not leather.
> >>> Clear canopy and not tinted.
> >>> I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
> >> I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.
> >
> > I have a 48 year old glider that has gelcoat and still looks nice. A nice creamy white and no crazing or cracks.
> > If one makes a requirement of only a painted glider there are very few to select from.
> > UH
> >
> It seems that a lot of old (35-45 years) gliders have had the gel coat
> sanded and painted (10-20 years ago). How do they hold up after that?
> Does it depend on the condition of the gelcoat before the painting? (If
> it was in great condition, they wouldn't have painted it, eh?) How
> should such a painted-over-gelcoat glider be treated to make that sort
> of finish last?

[Mike Carris[_2_]]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 7:16:53 PM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 2/15/2021 6:40 PM, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 5:31:18 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> >> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> >>> I am considering making a purchase for a AGS29 pure glider, I have somewhat a good idea as to the market value of such a ship, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
> >>> What would you consider the market value of aa ASG29 2012 model, with a slight damage history and somewhat outdated panel to be? There is a trailer included and the description was stated to be pristine, yet there are 4 out of 5 stars on the advertised description. IMHO if the glider is pristine there should be 5 stars in the descriptive advertisement.
> >>> This glider is said to be a 400 hour ship.
> >>> Again, in gel coat, and we all know what happens at some point.
> >>> Somewhat outdated panel.
> >>> A pure glider, no sustainer.
> >>> Fabric interior and not leather.
> >>> Clear canopy and not tinted.
> >>> I all honesty, what do you think the value of this ship?
> >> I would think twice about purchasing gel a coat finished glider. 10 years down the road it will look undesirable.
> >
> > I have a 48 year old glider that has gelcoat and still looks nice. A nice creamy white and no crazing or cracks.
> > If one makes a requirement of only a painted glider there are very few to select from.
> > UH
> >
> It seems that a lot of old (35-45 years) gliders have had the gel coat
> sanded and painted (10-20 years ago). How do they hold up after that?
> Does it depend on the condition of the gelcoat before the painting? (If
> it was in great condition, they wouldn't have painted it, eh?) How
> should such a painted-over-gelcoat glider be treated to make that sort
> of finish last?

You do not paint over gelcoat. You remove it and start from the bare airframe.

Mike

[krasw]

On Tuesday, 16 February 2021 at 08:01:34 UTC+2, Mike Carris wrote:
> You do not paint over gelcoat. You remove it and start from the bare airframe.
>
> Mike

I've never seen a painted glider that did not have gelcoat below the paint. New gliders with paint = gel coat is added to the moulds. Refinished gliders = gel coat usually sanded down but still there.

No use comparing 50 years old gel coat gliders to modern gliders with T35 crap that lasts 10 years before cracking.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 2:30:51 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> On Tuesday, 16 February 2021 at 08:01:34 UTC+2, Mike Carris wrote:
> > You do not paint over gelcoat. You remove it and start from the bare airframe.
> >
> > Mike
> I've never seen a painted glider that did not have gelcoat below the paint. New gliders with paint = gel coat is added to the moulds. Refinished gliders = gel coat usually sanded down but still there.
>
> No use comparing 50 years old gel coat gliders to modern gliders with T35 crap that lasts 10 years before cracking.

I can show you an LS3A that was painted over the gel, it is now totally in immediate need of a complete strip and build up. we plan on refinishing it very soon. The paint and gel on this ship seems to remove much easier than any others that I have removed.

[Mark Mocho]

In 2006, Bob Lacovara gave a presentation at the SSA Convention in Ontario, CA about gel coat and refinishing. He basically said that a good refinishing job will involve removing all the gel coat down to the composite substrate (but not getting into the substrate AT ALL!) if the gel coat exhibits crazing or cracks. Just sanding to a smooth finish and then applying a top coat of filler, new gel coat or paint will allow the cracks to manifest themselves rather quickly. He also said that the wide disparity in the quality of a gel coat finish on older gliders was traced to the glider manufacturers' process of applying gel coat into the mold and the time that lapsed between the application and actually laying in the first composite layer. In the early days of composite manufacturing, it was thought that the gel coat could go as much as a couple of days before the composites had to be laid over the uncured gel coat. After examining records from several manufacturers, it was discovered that a gel coat surface that had no more than an hour of exposure to the air before being sealed by laying in the composite skin and wing structures showed little or no deterioration, cracking or crazing even after a couple of decades, whereas gel coat that was applied and exposed to the air for more than four hours (and sometimes overnight or even longer) exhibited various degrees of crazing and cracking over time. Mr. Lacovara also stated that there have been many different types of gel coat over the years, and some are better than others. He also stated that the boating industry uses far superior coatings today that are pretty much unavailable to the sailplane industry, simply because glider manufacturing is so tiny compared to the boating world. He estimated that ALL the glider manufacturers in the world would total less than ten percent of the capacity of even the smallest boat manufacturer. At the time of his presentation, Bob was the Secretary of the American Composites Manufacturing Association and had access to a great deal of information on composite manufacturing worldwide.

George Moffatt was quoted as saying that, "Glider designers, when plied with enough drinks, will eventually admit that there are good ships and bad ships from the same molds."

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 7:51:56 PM UTC-5, Mike Carris wrote:

> Yes, I have seen two sailplanes from the same factory, same make, same model and same gelcoat. One was taken care of, buffed, Wx' blocked and sealed yearly and was still near perfect after over ten years . The other was not taken care of and had crazed gelcoat and needed a refinish. Having worked in a sailplane repair shop it has been noted that people often do not take care of their sailplanes.

Just to build on this, while there are differences of opinion on the specific products that people use (German hardwax vs. modern polish; old-school carnuba vs. modern formula coatings) the common denominator is that people who regularly maintain the finish miraculously seem to get the "good" gliders and those who don't... well you get the picture.

That's not to say that if you get a "Monday Glider" (gelcoat sprayed Friday and glass not put in until Monday) you'll have perfect gelcoat. But you certainly will get much worse results if you do nothing.

My protocol that has worked very well through two new gliders is an annual polish (I use 3M products but could just as easily use "hardwax") sealed by 3M Marine Wax done in the spring on ALL surfaces. Then, usually late summer I hit the wings top side only with another polish and wax. The full ship takes pretty much a whole day in the shop. The wings topside only maybe 2 hours.

If I fly a lot (e.g. during a contest) I reapply liquid wax on the leading edge after a few days.

When I sold my 13 year old LS8 (finished in original gelcoat), the IA who did the pre-purchase called it "factory new" at least under a 2x loupe. I'm sure if I had my buddy run it through the SEM he would've found the crazing... :-)

P3
ACA Chief Refinishing Officer (CRO)

[Roy B.]

Bob:
A few additional points to think about:

One of the most desirable options for the ASG-29 pure glider is the fuselage tank (which can be made removable and replaced with the storage shelf). Without that tank a 200 lbs pilot with chute, drinking water & lunch can't get the glider to its 600 kg maximum even with the wing tanks & fin tank chock filled. Even if you want to fly with partial water, the glider handles much better with the weight inboard. I always fill the fuselage tank first and then add water to the wings to get to the wing loading I want.

Buying a glider from an estate has its negatives. There is nobody to show you the rigging tricks, or to explain what that little box on the left side of the fuselage is, find the FR calibration sheet (if any) or tell you when/if the trailer tires were replaced or answer the million other questions an owner would know the answer to. And, the same holds true of having the AI or AP who maintained or repaired the glider do the first annual or pre-purchase inspection. Sometimes fresh eyes are a good thing.

I'd like to know when or if the Mylar has been replaced. Especially if it's been in a trailer without aileron/flap locks ( a bending load on Mylar in a hot trailer for 2 years is not good) . Fresh Mylar matters in the '29 and it's not an easy or cheap job to do yourself.

There is a difference between a gelcoat glider with a carefully documented and demonstrable damage/repair history and one without that. I am aware of 3 instances where people sent gliders to Eastern European refinish facilities who "discovered" improperly done repairs that stopped the re-finish work until corrected. The owners were helpless to argue and just paid 5000 Euros or so more than they planned for the re-repair. So, if there is a plan to refinish the gelcoat at any time in the future, it's important to know exactly what happened in the past.

Additional things I'd like to know: Does it have covers? Is the XPDR mode C or S and when was it last calibrated? Any spare parts? A parachute? Things to budget for: new batteries, XPDR check, CN I upgrade to II (if possible). New radio (search this forum for Dittel FSG2T problems - I've junked 2 of them).

Things I wouldn't care about: clear vs. tinted canopy (you really don't notice it), Cloth vs. leather interior (leather looks great but sticks to your legs if you are wearing shorts), total time ( 400 hours vs 1400 hours on a glider doesn't really matter).

Lastly, I think time of year is important. Gliders sell for more money in the Spring. I would expect as much as a 10% difference in the sale price depending on a sale in mid-winter compared to April, May or June.

ROY (who has #29041 in the US and 1/2 of #29014 in South Africa)

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 4:00:00 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> Bob:
> A few additional points to think about:
>
> One of the most desirable options for the ASG-29 pure glider is the fuselage tank (which can be made removable and replaced with the storage shelf). Without that tank a 200 lbs pilot with chute, drinking water & lunch can't get the glider to its 600 kg maximum even with the wing tanks & fin tank chock filled. Even if you want to fly with partial water, the glider handles much better with the weight inboard. I always fill the fuselage tank first and then add water to the wings to get to the wing loading I want.
>
> Buying a glider from an estate has its negatives. There is nobody to show you the rigging tricks, or to explain what that little box on the left side of the fuselage is, find the FR calibration sheet (if any) or tell you when/if the trailer tires were replaced or answer the million other questions an owner would know the answer to. And, the same holds true of having the AI or AP who maintained or repaired the glider do the first annual or pre-purchase inspection. Sometimes fresh eyes are a good thing.
>
> I'd like to know when or if the Mylar has been replaced. Especially if it's been in a trailer without aileron/flap locks ( a bending load on Mylar in a hot trailer for 2 years is not good) . Fresh Mylar matters in the '29 and it's not an easy or cheap job to do yourself.
>
> There is a difference between a gelcoat glider with a carefully documented and demonstrable damage/repair history and one without that. I am aware of 3 instances where people sent gliders to Eastern European refinish facilities who "discovered" improperly done repairs that stopped the re-finish work until corrected. The owners were helpless to argue and just paid 5000 Euros or so more than they planned for the re-repair. So, if there is a plan to refinish the gelcoat at any time in the future, it's important to know exactly what happened in the past.
>
> Additional things I'd like to know: Does it have covers? Is the XPDR mode C or S and when was it last calibrated? Any spare parts? A parachute? Things to budget for: new batteries, XPDR check, CN I upgrade to II (if possible). New radio (search this forum for Dittel FSG2T problems - I've junked 2 of them).
>
> Things I wouldn't care about: clear vs. tinted canopy (you really don't notice it), Cloth vs. leather interior (leather looks great but sticks to your legs if you are wearing shorts), total time ( 400 hours vs 1400 hours on a glider doesn't really matter).
>
> Lastly, I think time of year is important. Gliders sell for more money in the Spring. I would expect as much as a 10% difference in the sale price depending on a sale in mid-winter compared to April, May or June.
>
> ROY (who has #29041 in the US and 1/2 of #29014 in South Africa)

Thanks Roy, there are a couple more that I will be considering, I am in no hurry, if the Florida weather doesn't get better soon I might as well just keep my 27. Since I am now retired and bored I thought about heading west for the summer months and fly there. The 18 meter wings would be good in that environment, much more than the Florida environment.
Speaking of radios, I am not a Dittel fan, I would change out to Becker immediately.
As you know I am a purist, but it has surprised me how popular the sustainers and self launch models have been. I cannot ever see myself buying one of those, "Motorgliders", but the numbers speak for themselves. Also the arrival of the new AS33 will be very interesting.
Thanks for the information, fly safe. Bob

[Dan Marotta]

Bob,
I retrieved Kathy after a land out at a local gravel airport. She did
not know how to remove the wing outer panels and I figured it out while
she was digging for the manual in the trailer. It's just like the '27.

And Fidel was the sole maintainer (to my knowledge) and he cleaned and
waxed the ship annually.

Dan
5J

On 2/16/21 3:04 PM, wrote:
> There is nobody to show you the rigging tricks