Looking for a Colibri ii

[Len[_2_]]

Was wondering if anyone found themselves with an old/extra Colibri II they'd be willing to part with.

Cheers,
-Len

[Nicholas Kennedy]

Len
I had a Colibri 2
I really disliked that thing, very difficult to use unless you have programmer level skills I found out.
Ancient technology.
LXNAV has 3 IGC flight recorders from $480 ,$610 ,$810
The $$610 and 810 have map screens and alot of features along with a logger.
Easy to use and will last forever.
CRAGGYAERO.COM has them at a good price point.
Call Richard, he'll fix you right up.
Nick
T

[Len[_2_]]

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 6:26:48 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Len
> I had a Colibri 2
> I really disliked that thing, very difficult to use unless you have programmer level skills I found out.
> Ancient technology.
> LXNAV has 3 IGC flight recorders from $480 ,$610 ,$810
> The $$610 and 810 have map screens and alot of features along with a logger.
> Easy to use and will last forever.
> CRAGGYAERO.COM has them at a good price point.
> Call Richard, he'll fix you right up.
> Nick
> T
Hi Nick, I agree the Nano III would probably be a good choice as well, but anything brand new is more than I'd like to invest at the moment for a FR/backup NAV system. Figured I'd post seeing if anyone did a winter panel upgrade and has one they'd like to sell. I don't know I'd call the Colibri II "ancient technology"... it's probably a few decades newer than the majority of gliders out there flying : ). I've heard good things about the Colibri II from friends, though I'm sure the Nano's are nice too. If you still have your Colibri ii and would like to sell it, let me know.

Cheers
-Len

[Moshe Braner]

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 6:26:48 PM UTC-5, nickkennedy wrote:
> Len
> I had a Colibri 2
> I really disliked that thing, very difficult to use unless you have programmer level skills I found out.
> Ancient technology.
> LXNAV has 3 IGC flight recorders from $480 ,$610 ,$810
> The $$610 and 810 have map screens and alot of features along with a logger.
> Easy to use and will last forever.
> CRAGGYAERO.COM has them at a good price point.
> Call Richard, he'll fix you right up.
> Nick
> T

Alas nothing lasts "forever". Funny when people put such faith into the current models, but when I ask why I can't get factory support for a 15-year-old model I'm told "what do you expect?" Old mechanical instruments of good quality did last a long time - e.g., Sage varios. The Scheumann box in my (originally Kai Gertsen's) HP14 was still soldiering on after 40 years. Electronics: not so much. Computerized electronics: designed obsolescence.

[Dan Marotta]

Yeah, and all those 40 year old gliders got badges and records without
any of that fancy stuff. And who doesn't miss the fun of turn point
photos taken out of the sector, or film disallowed because the processor
cut it, balky barographs, etc.? It took more flights but it was more
fun, I think, the diamonds still sparkle!

Dan
5J

On 3/2/21 5:54 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 6:26:48 PM UTC-5, nickkennedy wrote:
>> Len
>> I had a Colibri 2
>> I really disliked that thing, very difficult to use unless you have programmer level skills I found out.
>> Ancient technology.
>> LXNAV has 3 IGC flight recorders from $480 ,$610 ,$810
>> The $$610 and 810 have map screens and alot of features along with a logger.
>> Easy to use and will last forever.
>> CRAGGYAERO.COM has them at a good price point.
>> Call Richard, he'll fix you right up.
>> Nick
>> T
>
> Alas nothing lasts "forever". Funny when people put such faith into the current models, but when I ask why I can't get factory support for a 15-year-old model I'm told "what do you expect?" Old mechanical instruments of good quality did last a long time - e.g., Sage varios. The Scheumann box in my (originally Kai Gertsen's) HP14 was still soldiering on after 40 years. Electronics: not so much. Computerized electronics: designed obsolescence.
>

[Mike Carris[_2_]]

On Wednesday, March 3, 2021 at 8:36:11 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Yeah, and all those 40 year old gliders got badges and records without
> any of that fancy stuff. And who doesn't miss the fun of turn point
> photos taken out of the sector, or film disallowed because the processor
> cut it, balky barographs, etc.? It took more flights but it was more
> fun, I think, the diamonds still sparkle!
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 3/2/21 5:54 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 6:26:48 PM UTC-5, nickkennedy wrote:
> >> Len
> >> I had a Colibri 2
> >> I really disliked that thing, very difficult to use unless you have programmer level skills I found out.
> >> Ancient technology.
> >> LXNAV has 3 IGC flight recorders from $480 ,$610 ,$810
> >> The $$610 and 810 have map screens and alot of features along with a logger.
> >> Easy to use and will last forever.
> >> CRAGGYAERO.COM has them at a good price point.
> >> Call Richard, he'll fix you right up.
> >> Nick
> >> T
> >
> > Alas nothing lasts "forever". Funny when people put such faith into the current models, but when I ask why I can't get factory support for a 15-year-old model I'm told "what do you expect?" Old mechanical instruments of good quality did last a long time - e.g., Sage varios. The Scheumann box in my (originally Kai Gertsen's) HP14 was still soldiering on after 40 years. Electronics: not so much. Computerized electronics: designed obsolescence.
> >
A Nano works great and is simple and relatively inexpensive. Connected to a XCSoar smart phone via BT, gives you everything you need for XC on any level.

[Moshe Braner]

On 3/3/2021 10:49 AM, Mike Carris wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 3, 2021 at 8:36:11 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Yeah, and all those 40 year old gliders got badges and records without
>> any of that fancy stuff. And who doesn't miss the fun of turn point
>> photos taken out of the sector, or film disallowed because the processor
>> cut it, balky barographs, etc.? It took more flights but it was more
>> fun, I think, the diamonds still sparkle!
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>> On 3/2/21 5:54 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 6:26:48 PM UTC-5, nickkennedy wrote:
>>>> Len
>>>> I had a Colibri 2
>>>> I really disliked that thing, very difficult to use unless you have programmer level skills I found out.
>>>> Ancient technology.
>>>> LXNAV has 3 IGC flight recorders from $480 ,$610 ,$810
>>>> The $$610 and 810 have map screens and alot of features along with a logger.
>>>> Easy to use and will last forever.
>>>> CRAGGYAERO.COM has them at a good price point.
>>>> Call Richard, he'll fix you right up.
>>>> Nick
>>>> T
>>>
>>> Alas nothing lasts "forever". Funny when people put such faith into the current models, but when I ask why I can't get factory support for a 15-year-old model I'm told "what do you expect?" Old mechanical instruments of good quality did last a long time - e.g., Sage varios. The Scheumann box in my (originally Kai Gertsen's) HP14 was still soldiering on after 40 years. Electronics: not so much. Computerized electronics: designed obsolescence.
>>>
> A Nano works great and is simple and relatively inexpensive. Connected to a XCSoar smart phone via BT, gives you everything you need for XC on any level.
>

Right, a usable and relatively inexpensive setup. I similarly use FLARM
+ Tophat.

But, after a decade or so the battery keeping the IGC security data
inside the Nano (or FLARM or whatever) will die, and you'll need to have
it officially re-blessed. And even if you don't care about official
badges and records, the loss of settings may force you to replace the
battery - if it's replaceable. And the tiny battery in the GPS module
will eventually die, making it slow in re-gaining a fix, and may lose
necessary settings. And that battery may not be replaceable. And the
main power battery inside the Nano (or any other unit) will die, and may
or may not be user-replaceable. And there may or may not be factory
support.

Batteries, can't live with them, can't live without them.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 03 Mar 2021 11:45:36 -0500, Moshe Braner wrote:

> On 3/3/2021 10:49 AM, Mike Carris wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 3, 2021 at 8:36:11 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Yeah, and all those 40 year old gliders got badges and records without
>>> any of that fancy stuff. And who doesn't miss the fun of turn point
>>> photos taken out of the sector, or film disallowed because the
>>> processor cut it, balky barographs, etc.? It took more flights but it
>>> was more fun, I think, the diamonds still sparkle!
>>>
>>> Dan 5J On 3/2/21 5:54 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 6:26:48 PM UTC-5, nickkennedy wrote:
>>>>> Len I had a Colibri 2 I really disliked that thing, very difficult
>>>>> to use unless you have programmer level skills I found out.
>>>>> Ancient technology.
>>>>> LXNAV has 3 IGC flight recorders from $480 ,$610 ,$810 The $$610 and
>>>>> 810 have map screens and alot of features along with a logger.
>>>>> Easy to use and will last forever.
>>>>> CRAGGYAERO.COM has them at a good price point.
>>>>> Call Richard, he'll fix you right up.
>>>>> Nick T
>>>>
>>>> Alas nothing lasts "forever". Funny when people put such faith into
>>>> the current models, but when I ask why I can't get factory support
>>>> for a 15-year-old model I'm told "what do you expect?" Old mechanical
>>>> instruments of good quality did last a long time - e.g., Sage varios.
>>>> The Scheumann box in my (originally Kai Gertsen's) HP14 was still
>>>> soldiering on after 40 years. Electronics: not so much. Computerized
>>>> electronics: designed obsolescence.
>>>>
>> A Nano works great and is simple and relatively inexpensive. Connected
>> to a XCSoar smart phone via BT, gives you everything you need for XC on
>> any level.
>>
>>
> Right, a usable and relatively inexpensive setup. I similarly use FLARM
> + Tophat.
>
> But, after a decade or so the battery keeping the IGC security data
> inside the Nano (or FLARM or whatever) will die, and you'll need to have
> it officially re-blessed. And even if you don't care about official
> badges and records, the loss of settings may force you to replace the
> battery - if it's replaceable. And the tiny battery in the GPS module
> will eventually die, making it slow in re-gaining a fix, and may lose
> necessary settings. And that battery may not be replaceable. And the
> main power battery inside the Nano (or any other unit) will die, and may
> or may not be user-replaceable. And there may or may not be factory
> support.
>
> Batteries, can't live with them, can't live without them.

Something I found out the hard way, back when the Garmin GPS 2+ was
pretty much the bees knees of GPSunits:

As Moshe says, a lot of these devices have a tiny, non-rechargeable coin
cell soldered into them whose job is to keep the memory holding setup
values alive while you're replacing the AA cells or have the NiMH cells
out for a recharge.

No matter what cells they use (Alkalines, NiMH of Lithium) almost all of
them, unless they have a mechanical ON/OFF switch will, slown discharge
their batteries even on apparently switched off, because the neat touch
to power on/off switch uses battery while waiting to sense the next ON
command. if you leave it over winter without periodic recharging this
will destroy their main rechargeables by running them flat. Worse still,
once the main batteries are fully discharged the coin cell, if fitted
will be drained as well, so you'll loose all
your settings *AND* wil have to junk the device if you can't find anybody
to replace the coin cell.

So, keep a beady eye on the charge state of your toys and make sure you
recharge them before the charge state becomes 'red'.

This way you won't need to replace any fully discharged and ruined NiMH
or Lithium rechargeables and/or have to replace the device of you can't
find somebody to replace the dead. soldered-in batteries.

I've been there and done that. Had a GPS II+ flatten its coin cell and
die because I didn't know what I've just written: fortunately it was
*just* inside guarantee (and one of a batch that had duff coin cells) so
I got this stuff explained to me when Garmin replaced the coin cell.

I still own usable Garmin GPS IIs, but only because they have always had
good AA Alkalines, replaced as needed, in them since the 1990s, they
still remember which GPS epoch this is: if they ever forget that due to
no AA cells fitted and a consequential dead coin cell, they'll become so
much unusable junk.

Both my EW Microrecorder (flight logger) and the Medion PNA I run LK8000
on get regularly recharged during the winter.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Moshe Braner]

On 3/3/2021 1:47 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Mar 2021 11:45:36 -0500, Moshe Braner wrote:
>
>> On 3/3/2021 10:49 AM, Mike Carris wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, March 3, 2021 at 8:36:11 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> Yeah, and all those 40 year old gliders got badges and records without
>>>> any of that fancy stuff. And who doesn't miss the fun of turn point
>>>> photos taken out of the sector, or film disallowed because the
>>>> processor cut it, balky barographs, etc.? It took more flights but it
>>>> was more fun, I think, the diamonds still sparkle!
>>>>
>>>> Dan 5J On 3/2/21 5:54 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 6:26:48 PM UTC-5, nickkennedy wrote:
>>>>>> Len I had a Colibri 2 I really disliked that thing, very difficult
>>>>>> to use unless you have programmer level skills I found out.
>>>>>> Ancient technology.
>>>>>> LXNAV has 3 IGC flight recorders from $480 ,$610 ,$810 The $$610 and
>>>>>> 810 have map screens and alot of features along with a logger.
>>>>>> Easy to use and will last forever.
>>>>>> CRAGGYAERO.COM has them at a good price point.
>>>>>> Call Richard, he'll fix you right up.
>>>>>> Nick T
>>>>>
>>>>> Alas nothing lasts "forever". Funny when people put such faith into
>>>>> the current models, but when I ask why I can't get factory support
>>>>> for a 15-year-old model I'm told "what do you expect?" Old mechanical
>>>>> instruments of good quality did last a long time - e.g., Sage varios.
>>>>> The Scheumann box in my (originally Kai Gertsen's) HP14 was still
>>>>> soldiering on after 40 years. Electronics: not so much. Computerized
>>>>> electronics: designed obsolescence.
>>>>>
>>> A Nano works great and is simple and relatively inexpensive. Connected
>>> to a XCSoar smart phone via BT, gives you everything you need for XC on
>>> any level.
>>>
>>>
>> Right, a usable and relatively inexpensive setup. I similarly use FLARM
>> + Tophat.
>>
>> But, after a decade or so the battery keeping the IGC security data
>> inside the Nano (or FLARM or whatever) will die, and you'll need to have
>> it officially re-blessed. And even if you don't care about official
>> badges and records, the loss of settings may force you to replace the
>> battery - if it's replaceable. And the tiny battery in the GPS module
>> will eventually die, making it slow in re-gaining a fix, and may lose
>> necessary settings. And that battery may not be replaceable. And the
>> main power battery inside the Nano (or any other unit) will die, and may
>> or may not be user-replaceable. And there may or may not be factory
>> support.
>>
>> Batteries, can't live with them, can't live without them.
>
> Something I found out the hard way, back when the Garmin GPS 2+ was
> pretty much the bees knees of GPSunits:
>
> As Moshe says, a lot of these devices have a tiny, non-rechargeable coin
> cell soldered into them whose job is to keep the memory holding setup
> values alive while you're replacing the AA cells or have the NiMH cells
> out for a recharge.
>
> No matter what cells they use (Alkalines, NiMH of Lithium) almost all of
> them, unless they have a mechanical ON/OFF switch will, slown discharge
> their batteries even on apparently switched off, because the neat touch
> to power on/off switch uses battery while waiting to sense the next ON
> command. if you leave it over winter without periodic recharging this
> will destroy their main rechargeables by running them flat. Worse still,
> once the main batteries are fully discharged the coin cell, if fitted
> will be drained as well, so you'll loose all
> your settings *AND* wil have to junk the device if you can't find anybody
> to replace the coin cell.
>
> So, keep a beady eye on the charge state of your toys and make sure you
> recharge them before the charge state becomes 'red'.
>
> This way you won't need to replace any fully discharged and ruined NiMH
> or Lithium rechargeables and/or have to replace the device of you can't
> find somebody to replace the dead. soldered-in batteries.
>
> I've been there and done that. Had a GPS II+ flatten its coin cell and
> die because I didn't know what I've just written: fortunately it was
> *just* inside guarantee (and one of a batch that had duff coin cells) so
> I got this stuff explained to me when Garmin replaced the coin cell.
>
> I still own usable Garmin GPS IIs, but only because they have always had
> good AA Alkalines, replaced as needed, in them since the 1990s, they
> still remember which GPS epoch this is: if they ever forget that due to
> no AA cells fitted and a consequential dead coin cell, they'll become so
> much unusable junk.
>
> Both my EW Microrecorder (flight logger) and the Medion PNA I run LK8000
> on get regularly recharged during the winter.
>

Alas some of them use non-rechargeable coin cells, that you cannot keep
alive by maintaining the main power. In particular, devices that are
(also) IGC-approved loggers (whether standalone loggers, varios,
computers or FLARM) seem to be REQUIRED (by IGC) to have a battery
inside the sealed unit - for the purpose of detecting any attempt to
tamper with the innards. They are built so that if/when you open the
case, the battery is disconnected and the IGC security memory is lost.
Those batteries end up dead after a decade or so, and then you have to
have a factory rep re-seal them, meaning replace the battery and do
something or another to make the unit consider itself secure again.
(The sealing sticker itself is just a warning not to open it.) Thus
these devices are ticking time bombs that, without factory-rep support,
will self-brick. Nothing lasts "forever"!

And the inability of long-stored GPS units to figure out which "epoch"
they really are in is another form of planned obsolescence. I have some
very old Garmin GPSs that work just fine, except that some of them are
confused about the epoch. That's not a problem unless the device is
also a flight recorder (logger) since it will stamp your flight log with
the wrong date (off by about 11 years).

[Dan Marotta]

"Not user replaceable" means there's not a little door on the unit which
you can open, remove, and replace the battery. If you're handy or
adventurous, pop that sucker open, find the battery, and replace it.
You may need to do a little soldering...

Dan
5J

On 3/3/21 9:45 AM, Moshe Braner wrote:
> On 3/3/2021 10:49 AM, Mike Carris wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 3, 2021 at 8:36:11 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Yeah, and all those 40 year old gliders got badges and records without
>>> any of that fancy stuff. And who doesn't miss the fun of turn point
>>> photos taken out of the sector, or film disallowed because the processor
>>> cut it, balky barographs, etc.? It took more flights but it was more
>>> fun, I think, the diamonds still sparkle!
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>> On 3/2/21 5:54 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 6:26:48 PM UTC-5, nickkennedy wrote:
>>>>> Len
>>>>> I had a Colibri 2
>>>>> I really disliked that thing, very difficult to use unless you have
>>>>> programmer level skills I found out.
>>>>> Ancient technology.
>>>>> LXNAV has 3 IGC flight recorders from $480 ,$610 ,$810
>>>>> The $$610 and 810 have map screens and alot of features along with
>>>>> a logger.
>>>>> Easy to use and will last forever.
>>>>> CRAGGYAERO.COM has them at a good price point.
>>>>> Call Richard, he'll fix you right up.
>>>>> Nick
>>>>> T
>>>>
>>>> Alas nothing lasts "forever". Funny when people put such faith into
>>>> the current models, but when I ask why I can't get factory support
>>>> for a 15-year-old model I'm told "what do you expect?" Old
>>>> mechanical instruments of good quality did last a long time - e.g.,
>>>> Sage varios. The Scheumann box in my (originally Kai Gertsen's) HP14
>>>> was still soldiering on after 40 years. Electronics: not so much.
>>>> Computerized electronics: designed obsolescence.
>>>>
>> A Nano works great and is simple and relatively inexpensive. Connected
>> to a XCSoar smart phone via BT, gives you everything you need for XC
>> on any level.
>>
>
> Right, a usable and relatively inexpensive setup.Â* I similarly use FLARM
> + Tophat.
>
> But, after a decade or so the battery keeping the IGC security data
> inside the Nano (or FLARM or whatever) will die, and you'll need to have
> it officially re-blessed.Â* And even if you don't care about official
> badges and records, the loss of settings may force you to replace the
> battery - if it's replaceable.Â* And the tiny battery in the GPS module
> will eventually die, making it slow in re-gaining a fix, and may lose
> necessary settings.Â* And that battery may not be replaceable.Â* And the
> main power battery inside the Nano (or any other unit) will die, and may
> or may not be user-replaceable.Â* And there may or may not be factory
> support.
>
> Batteries, can't live with them, can't live without them.

[kinsell]

Well, on some products. If the epoch is wrong, replacing or recharging
the battery doesn't fix the problem. I've got an ancient Garmin GPS 12
still with the correct date. If the battery went bad, maybe the case
could be popped open, but it wouldn't be worth messing with.

Of course if you open up a secure logger, you break the electronic seal
and there goes your valid traces. The old GPS-NAV let you easily
replace the electronic seal battery, but only if you knew to provide
external power as you were doing that. Replacing the GPS battery would
be not feasible for the user.

Still a lot of CAI 302 loggers in use, they ought to be charged a couple
times in the off season.

Dave


On 3/3/21 3:29 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> "Not user replaceable" means there's not a little door on the unit which
> you can open, remove, and replace the battery.Â* If you're handy or
> adventurous, pop that sucker open, find the battery, and replace it. You
> may need to do a little soldering...
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 3/3/21 9:45 AM, Moshe Braner wrote:
>> On 3/3/2021 10:49 AM, Mike Carris wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, March 3, 2021 at 8:36:11 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> Yeah, and all those 40 year old gliders got badges and records without
>>>> any of that fancy stuff. And who doesn't miss the fun of turn point
>>>> photos taken out of the sector, or film disallowed because the
>>>> processor
>>>> cut it, balky barographs, etc.? It took more flights but it was more
>>>> fun, I think, the diamonds still sparkle!
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>> 5J
>>>> On 3/2/21 5:54 PM, Moshe Braner wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 6:26:48 PM UTC-5, nickkennedy wrote:
>>>>>> Len
>>>>>> I had a Colibri 2
>>>>>> I really disliked that thing, very difficult to use unless you
>>>>>> have programmer level skills I found out.
>>>>>> Ancient technology.
>>>>>> LXNAV has 3 IGC flight recorders from $480 ,$610 ,$810
>>>>>> The $$610 and 810 have map screens and alot of features along with
>>>>>> a logger.
>>>>>> Easy to use and will last forever.
>>>>>> CRAGGYAERO.COM has them at a good price point.
>>>>>> Call Richard, he'll fix you right up.
>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>> T
>>>>>
>>>>> Alas nothing lasts "forever". Funny when people put such faith into
>>>>> the current models, but when I ask why I can't get factory support
>>>>> for a 15-year-old model I'm told "what do you expect?" Old
>>>>> mechanical instruments of good quality did last a long time - e.g.,
>>>>> Sage varios. The Scheumann box in my (originally Kai Gertsen's)
>>>>> HP14 was still soldiering on after 40 years. Electronics: not so
>>>>> much. Computerized electronics: designed obsolescence.
>>>>>
>>> A Nano works great and is simple and relatively inexpensive.
>>> Connected to a XCSoar smart phone via BT, gives you everything you
>>> need for XC on any level.
>>>
>>
>> Right, a usable and relatively inexpensive setup.Â* I similarly use
>> FLARM + Tophat.
>>
>> But, after a decade or so the battery keeping the IGC security data
>> inside the Nano (or FLARM or whatever) will die, and you'll need to
>> have it officially re-blessed.Â* And even if you don't care about
>> official badges and records, the loss of settings may force you to
>> replace the battery - if it's replaceable.Â* And the tiny battery in
>> the GPS module will eventually die, making it slow in re-gaining a
>> fix, and may lose necessary settings.Â* And that battery may not be
>> replaceable.Â* And the main power battery inside the Nano (or any other
>> unit) will die, and may or may not be user-replaceable.Â* And there may
>> or may not be factory support.
>>
>> Batteries, can't live with them, can't live without them.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 03 Mar 2021 15:36:46 -0500, Moshe Braner wrote:

> Alas some of them use non-rechargeable coin cells, that you cannot keep
> alive by maintaining the main power.
>
I thought I'd said that already, but what I should have emphasized more
clearly is that as long as the main rechargeable batteries have enough
charge in them to maintain a usable voltage *no current is being drawn
from the coin cell* so it degrades only very slowly. There *may* be a
diode to prevent flow into the coin cell while the main batteries are
good, but I bet a lot of electronics maker leave that out.

The proof of this is that the original coin cell in my first GPS II+ had
dropped far enough in two years to be flashing up #battery low' warnings
and this is what prompted to get it repaired. At that stage I was running
the alkalines flat and only replacing them before the next time I used
the GPS.

Now, almost 25 years later, both GPS II+ units are still going strong and
not warning about the coin cell getting depleted. It can be safely said
that this is due to the alkilines always being replaced when the battery
state indicator falls to 25% and never taking more than 30 seconds to
swap old batteries for new ones.

If this will work for Garmin GPS II+, then its extremely likely that that
it will work well in almost any other device that relies on coin cellds
to preserve memory while the main batteries are being swapped. If it uses
rechargeables, thin plugging in the charger should have the exact same
effect.

> In particular, devices that are
> (also) IGC-approved loggers (whether standalone loggers, varios,
> computers or FLARM) seem to be REQUIRED (by IGC) to have a battery
> inside the sealed unit - for the purpose of detecting any attempt to
> tamper with the innards.
>
Sure, but that isn't problem provided you do as I do and never leave the
logger or whatever with its main batteries connected and containing
enough charge to hold their output voltage higher than the coin cell's
output voltage. In this condition current cannot flow out of the coin
cell.

> They are built so that if/when you open the
> case, the battery is disconnected and the IGC security memory is lost.
>
Quite, but not relevant. I'd be surprised if my logger (an EW
Microrecorder) doesn't have a coin cell in its sealed area. However, it
also has an accessible section where its set of NiMH main batteries live.
These can be replaced without damaging any seals - and will need to be
replaced if mistreated.

Ror 'mistreated' read 'let them sit all winter and only recharge before
the first flight next year'. I know a pilot who also has an EW
Microrecorder and did that. They ended up replacing the NiMH batteries
every couple of years. OTOH I've had my Microrecorder since 2012 and its
still using the original set of NiMH main batteries.

The only disadvantage of NiMH is that they have a high self-discharge
rate and so I need to recharge them every 4-5 weeks during the winter
(and the COVID Winter too).

> Those batteries end up dead after a decade or so, and then you have to
> have a factory rep re-seal them, meaning replace the battery and do
> something or another to make the unit consider itself secure again.
>
Well, the coin cells in the Garmin GPSes have done 25 years so far and
the one in the Microrecorder is going fine after 9 years.

> (The sealing sticker itself is just a warning not to open it.) Thus
> these devices are ticking time bombs that, without factory-rep support,
> will self-brick. Nothing lasts "forever"!
>
Sure, but the difference in lifetimes between something which is bunged
in the cupboard and neglected between flying seasons and a device whose
kept charged is quite dramatic.

> And the inability of long-stored GPS units to figure out which "epoch"
> they really are in is another form of planned obsolescence.
>
I think its more case of volatile memory (RAM) with a coin battery for
backup being more reliable and supporting many more read/write cycles
that the EEPROM that was available when the 1st gen GPS receivers were
built.

> I have some very old Garmin GPSs that work just fine, except that some
> of them are confused about the epoch.
>
That depended on the device. O lot of 1st epoch GPSes couldn't resync if
the epoch counter was zeroed by total power loss. IIRC my GPS II+ units
are in that group, which is why I keep them continuously powered except
for 30 seconds every 9-12 months whe n their alkalines are changed.

> That's not a problem unless the device is also a flight recorder
> (logger) since it will stamp your flight log with the wrong date
> (off by about 11 years).
>
It can be more than that - some early receivers could not rsync with the
GPS constellation from epoch 1 onward if power loss zeroed their epoch
counter - I believe this design fault wasn't recognised until after the
first epoch rollover, at which point it was too late for recovery.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Tim Newport-Peace[_7_]]

On 04/03/2021 00:01, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> And the inability of long-stored GPS units to figure out which "epoch"
>> they really are in is another form of planned obsolescence.
>>
> I think its more case of volatile memory (RAM) with a coin battery for
> backup being more reliable and supporting many more read/write cycles
> that the EEPROM that was available when the 1st gen GPS receivers were
> built.
>
>> I have some very old Garmin GPSs that work just fine, except that some
>> of them are confused about the epoch.
>>
> That depended on the device. O lot of 1st epoch GPSes couldn't resync if
> the epoch counter was zeroed by total power loss. IIRC my GPS II+ units
> are in that group, which is why I keep them continuously powered except
> for 30 seconds every 9-12 months whe n their alkalines are changed.
>
>> That's not a problem unless the device is also a flight recorder
>> (logger) since it will stamp your flight log with the wrong date
>> (off by about 11 years).
>>
> It can be more than that - some early receivers could not rsync with the
> GPS constellation from epoch 1 onward if power loss zeroed their epoch
> counter - I believe this design fault wasn't recognised until after the
> first epoch rollover, at which point it was too late for recovery.
>

IF the GPS transmissions that we use included data on which the current
epoch is, there would not be a problem, but they don't.

Most GPS engines will reset to the epoch in which they were made, not
necessarily epoch 0.

[Moshe Braner]

On Thursday, March 4, 2021 at 4:56:28 AM UTC-5, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
> IF the GPS transmissions that we use included data on which the current
> epoch is, there would not be a problem, but they don't.

Save a couple of bits in the data packet, lose old equipment... But, is it possible to tell the GPS module what the current date and (approximate) time is? I mean, as a configuration message from the enclosing device. That depends on the GPS module of course. But if they don't build that into the module, that's planned obsolescence. If it is available, but the surrounding device (logger, vario...) doesn't use that feature, ditto. If you think that such a feature would be a burden on the module development, ahem, take a look at the uBlox documentation PDFs, they are hundreds of pages long.

This is a lot like the story with digital thermostats I use in my house. I used to have the typical thermostats that need batteries to maintain the real-time-clock, and the program memory, during a power outage. After some searching I did find a few models that do not use batteries at all, store the program in nonvolatile memory, and after a power outage require setting the clock manually. Why are such models so rare?

[Michael Bamberg]

If all you're looking for is a good backup, and you have a current SeeYou subscription, you can try SeeYouu Navigator. It's availabe on both Android and iOS, and while it's very basic, I think it does well as both a backup recorder (non-secure) and a flight computer.

I wouldn't want to try a big task or competition with it, but I feel it could help me get home.

MB