solo x/c for commercial

[[email protected]]

Okay, I've decided to start on my commercial, and after looking at
61.129 I have painfully accepted the fact that the 300nm cross country
really needs to be vfr, solo. That means long trips I've done on
instrument flight plans (imc or vmc) won't cut it, and more painfully,
long trips I've done with my girlfriend and climbing buddies (non pilot
passengers) are also not acceptable.

I really have to fly somewhere 250nm away and back again, being sure to
stop somewhere on the way home.

It is so tempting to go into a rant about the pointlessness of this reg
as written, but I'm going to limit myself to just stating that,
generally, I prefer to fly with friends, because it's just more fun (in
the plane and at the destination) and, well, more cost-effective. And
my logbook shows this dearth of truly solo post-private time. I
sometimes go up just to tool around and practice maneuvers on my own,
but I just haven't done much x/c flying that way.

No matter.

I want to make this trip as interesting and educational as possible.
I'm looking for ideas to spice up a several hours in cruise. Games to
practice my dead reckoning?

What do you guys do to make sure every flight is a learning experience?
(aside from "I learned about flying from that" stories, which I'd
prefer to read about rather than re-enact.)

Ideas?

-- dave j
-- jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> [...]
> What do you guys do to make sure every flight is a learning experience?
> (aside from "I learned about flying from that" stories, which I'd
> prefer to read about rather than re-enact.)

Personally, I don't go out of my way to "make sure every flight is a
learning experience". Many flights are, of course. But every flight should
be planned with the goal of the flight taking place exactly as planned,
without any surprises. And then you should actually fly the flight as if
nothing will go according to plan, so that you are always ready to fix the
plan to accomodate the new situation.

Now, that said, you have a very specific flight in mind, and I think it's
reasonable to look for ways to make it more interesting. I don't think it's
rocket science though. You can probably come up with most, if not all, of
the various ways yourself.

Some strategies that might be helpful:

* Make one of your landings at an airport that appears to be especially
hard to find. Of course, they all look easy on the chart, but a short
runway (not shorter than you can safely manage, of course) is often more
difficult, as are airports without lots of services or based aircraft
(airports are harder to find if there aren't a bunch of airplanes sitting
around on the ground :) ).

* Route your flight through various kinds of airspace requiring contact
with ATC. Use VFR flight following. Use a VFR flight plan.

* Challenge yourself to use the available weather information to verify
and/or correct the winds aloft forecast. For extra credit, use this
information along with your suggestion of doing some dead reckoning. See
how close to the mark you get.

* Practice your pilotage. Dead reckoning is fine, but for VFR flight
pilotage is where it's at. It's something you can use on every single
flight if you want to, and it is lots of fun.

* Actually get out at one of your stops. Try to get a meal. Fill up
the airplane's gas tanks. You may have already done this many times, but
personally I have found that the elements of flight between takeoff and
landing tend to be very similar. It's when you get to your destination that
every trip is different. :) For extra credit, see how close to your actual
fuel burn you can get with your calculations.

* Find a place to land that's unusual, even beyond being hard to find.
Here in the Pacific Northwest, Copalis Beach (a "runway" on the sand) is a
new experience for many. Near Los Angeles, landing on Catalina Island can
be a fun, but reasonably safe challenge (though, I haven't heard a report on
the pavement conditions in awhile). I don't know where your flight is
likely to take you, but surely there's an airport or two around that is
particularly unusual, even beyond some specific dimensional characteristic.

Most of all, just have fun. Frankly, while I can definitely relate to the
"having friends along is more fun", I think you're missing out if you don't
do a good long flight solo once in awhile. For me, it's about as far as I
can get from the real world. I have the whole plane to myself. No one is
expecting me to chat with them. The headsets keep the airplane noise down,
and otherwise my experience is completely silent. Obviously this works
better if you don't have to talk to ATC, but I've found that especially for
VFR flights, the occasional need to talk on the radio doesn't negate the
great "wakeful meditation" that solo flight provides.

Beyond any suggestion for making the flight more challenging or interesting,
simply take advantage of this rare opportunity to experience flight in a
completely new way. A way that you are not accustomed to experiencing,
since you always work so hard to bring someone else along. It's not bad.
It's just different.

Pete

[Ray]

> Okay, I've decided to start on my commercial, and after looking at
> 61.129 I have painfully accepted the fact that the 300nm cross country
> really needs to be vfr, solo

Are you sure it has to be VFR? Assuming you have 61.129(a)(2)(iii), the PIC
100nm VFR XC covered, 61.129(a)(4)(i), the 300nm solo XC doesn't seem to say
anything about VFR.

I agree though, that the definition of solo for the purposes of this
requirement should be broadened to include flights with non-pilot
passengers.

- Ray

[kontiki]

Pick a place you've never been before and just enjoy the ride.
Every flight can be a learning experience if you want it to be.

[Peter Clark]

On 24 May 2005 23:09:01 -0700, wrote:

>
>Okay, I've decided to start on my commercial, and after looking at
>61.129 I have painfully accepted the fact that the 300nm cross country
>really needs to be vfr, solo. That means long trips I've done on
>instrument flight plans (imc or vmc) won't cut it, and more painfully,
>long trips I've done with my girlfriend and climbing buddies (non pilot
>passengers) are also not acceptable.

Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but I don't read 61.129(a)(4)(i) as
specifying the flight conditions, just the distance and that it has to
be solo. The VFR notations are with the dual day/night flights.

What's confused me about 61.129(a)(4) is that it says "solo flight in
the areas of operation listed in 61.127(b)(1)". Is this something
like the PPL where you have to get an instructor to sign off on it to
prove it was done within 61.127(b)(1), still wiping out any flights
done previously from consideration?

[OtisWinslow]

Do you write in your log book when you have passengers? When I did mine
(admittedly a
lonnnng time ago) I took a couple friends and we made a day of it. I believe
it was 250nm
legs back then .. 3 of them. Stopped at both places and did stuff. The
flight school was
aware that 2 people were going with me and never said a thing. Did the
requirements
change since the 70s?





> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Okay, I've decided to start on my commercial, and after looking at
> 61.129 I have painfully accepted the fact that the 300nm cross country
> really needs to be vfr, solo. That means long trips I've done on
> instrument flight plans (imc or vmc) won't cut it, and more painfully,
> long trips I've done with my girlfriend and climbing buddies (non pilot
> passengers) are also not acceptable.
>
> I really have to fly somewhere 250nm away and back again, being sure to
> stop somewhere on the way home.
>
> It is so tempting to go into a rant about the pointlessness of this reg
> as written, but I'm going to limit myself to just stating that,
> generally, I prefer to fly with friends, because it's just more fun (in
> the plane and at the destination) and, well, more cost-effective. And
> my logbook shows this dearth of truly solo post-private time. I
> sometimes go up just to tool around and practice maneuvers on my own,
> but I just haven't done much x/c flying that way.
>
> No matter.
>
> I want to make this trip as interesting and educational as possible.
> I'm looking for ideas to spice up a several hours in cruise. Games to
> practice my dead reckoning?
>
> What do you guys do to make sure every flight is a learning experience?
> (aside from "I learned about flying from that" stories, which I'd
> prefer to read about rather than re-enact.)
>
> Ideas?
>
> -- dave j
> -- jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com
>

[Mike Rapoport]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Okay, I've decided to start on my commercial, and after looking at
> 61.129 I have painfully accepted the fact that the 300nm cross country
> really needs to be vfr, solo. That means long trips I've done on
> instrument flight plans (imc or vmc) won't cut it, and more painfully,
> long trips I've done with my girlfriend and climbing buddies (non pilot
> passengers) are also not acceptable.
>
> I really have to fly somewhere 250nm away and back again, being sure to
> stop somewhere on the way home.
>
> It is so tempting to go into a rant about the pointlessness of this reg
> as written, but I'm going to limit myself to just stating that,
> generally, I prefer to fly with friends, because it's just more fun (in
> the plane and at the destination) and, well, more cost-effective. And
> my logbook shows this dearth of truly solo post-private time. I
> sometimes go up just to tool around and practice maneuvers on my own,
> but I just haven't done much x/c flying that way.
>
> No matter.
>
> I want to make this trip as interesting and educational as possible.
> I'm looking for ideas to spice up a several hours in cruise. Games to
> practice my dead reckoning?
>
> What do you guys do to make sure every flight is a learning experience?
> (aside from "I learned about flying from that" stories, which I'd
> prefer to read about rather than re-enact.)
>
> Ideas?
>
> -- dave j
> -- jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com
>

I took my dog to soak in the hot springs near Mammoth, CA and then we went
to Harris Ranch for a steak.

Mike
MU-2

[Jose]

Fly low. Very low. The whole time. With no GPS. This will challenge
your pilotage, dead reckoning, and flight planning abilities (and such a
flight =must= be planned well!). Down low you won't see all that far,
and many of the landmarks you'd count on from a few thousand feet up
will be beyond the horizon. You'll need to hold a course with very good
precision, recognize and utilize landmarks of a totally different scale,
and keep your eyes out for towers and such. After three hours at five
hundred feet (a thousand if you're over towns), it's a nice feeling to
see the destination appear right in front of you, exactly where it belongs.

Of course, don't fly unsafely low; you need to take the hazards poking
up from the ground into account. You also need to consider the risks of
an engine failure into account. But the skills gained in navigation and
aviation this close to the ground may save your life one day. Besides,
it's real pretty.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

Everyone, thanks for the great suggestions! What I was looking for was
an attitude adjustment so I could look forward to this flight, and you
guys have helped provide it. I've fallen into the habit of thining of
the plane as a tool and I've even gotten in the habit of thinking in
terms of nm per dollar rather than knots. Not good.

A few notes:
Thanks for the clarification on 61.129(a)(4)(i). It does not say it
has to be VFR. 61.129(a)(4)(ii) does, however, so the 10 hours at night
can't be under IFR. The regulation is...interesting. I had one
instructor that was fond of saying night flying is instrument flying,
regardless of the rules you fly under. I usually think of it that way.

Also, I do almost always log (in addition to the weather, kind of
approach used, etc) who came with me on a trip in my logbook, what we
did, etc. I use my logbook as a little bit of a history of my life. You
can tell who I've dated from the past five years from it. :) It may be
good idea to stop using it that way, split that stuff out, and make my
official logbook clean.

FYI . I'm starting in Palo Alto, CA. I was thinking of heading to the
Oregon boder and back. Never been up there before.

Finally, I should get a dog.

-- dave j

[John Gaquin]

> wrote in message
>
> I really have to fly somewhere 250nm away and back again,
>
> What do you guys do to make sure every flight is a learning experience?

<sigh>
reminds me of a young professional couple I took to the airport not long ago
embarking on a 1 week vacation. Says wife to husband "I've got at least one
block of relaxation time scheduled in each day........." Sheesh.

turn off the gps. fly low and look at the scenery. look at the clouds and
try to imagine them as structures. what are they? when I ferried cessnas,
i used to toss the chart on the ack seat and just fly in the (sorta) right
general direction for about 2.5 to 3 hours looking at everything and
nothing, sometimes heading over here or there if it looked interesting, then
pick up the chart, figure out where I am and where I might find some gas.
where you find gas out in the boonies, you'll also find interesting folks
and as often as not some dyn-o-mite food. life unstructured will often teach
you things missed by the official syllabus.

[NVArt]

>

> Oregon boder and back. Never been up there before.
>
> Finally, I should get a dog.

...to help a steak at Harris Ranch. :)

[buttman]

meh, I disagree. If you're going for a commercial certificate, you are
going to have to learn how to do stuff alone. All the guys I know who
went off to work for cargo carriers do most of their flying alone. Even
a non-pilot can help a lot. Anyways, its just one flight.

When I did my long cross country for the commercial, I went to
Baltimore. This of course was just over a week or two ago. It was
actually the sunday before the ADIZ incident. most of the flight was
over the emptyness of West Virginia, and let me tell you it was very
boring, but I must get used to it if I plan on doing this
professionally.

[Hilton]

Dave wrote:

> Okay, I've decided to start on my commercial, and after looking at
> 61.129 I have painfully accepted the fact that the 300nm cross country
> really needs to be vfr, solo. That means long trips I've done on
> instrument flight plans (imc or vmc) won't cut it, and more painfully,
> long trips I've done with my girlfriend and climbing buddies (non pilot
> passengers) are also not acceptable.

IFR/VFR, IMC/VFC - makes no difference.


> I really have to fly somewhere 250nm away and back again, being sure to
> stop somewhere on the way home.

Nope, you gotta fly 250nm, 300nm total, 3 stops, solo - then you're done.
Then fly an Angel Flight passenger from SMO or ACV back to PAO for
treatment.

http://www.angelflight.org


Hilton

[[email protected]]

Hilton,

The shortest way you can fly the "250nm leg, 300nm, 3 stops," and
return the aircraft where you got it, is to go straight out 250nm,
land, and return, stopping once on the way out or back. In other words,
the shortest way you can meet this requirement is to fly 500nm *if*
you're not leaving the airplane somewhere.

I'm going to back to school full time in the fall, so feel kinda cash
poor, so I have turned kinda cheap.

I already noted I was wrong about the long x/c, it does not need to be
vfr. The night time in the next section of the reg, however, does.

-- dave j

[Hilton]

Dave,

> The shortest way you can fly the "250nm leg, 300nm, 3 stops," and
> return the aircraft where you got it, is to go straight out 250nm,
> land, and return, stopping once on the way out or back. In other words,
> the shortest way you can meet this requirement is to fly 500nm *if*
> you're not leaving the airplane somewhere.
>
> I'm going to back to school full time in the fall, so feel kinda cash
> poor, so I have turned kinda cheap.

Right, but you're equating distance with money. That's not how it works.
Let me explain.

For this thread, let's assume you average 100 knots (ignore taxi etc to
simplify things). Let's assume you're flying a $100/hr plane (again to
simplify things - use whatever figure you want). Also, OPD == Original
Point of Departure (PAO for you I assume).

Quickie round trip of 250nm x 2 = 500nm = $500


My suggested way = 300nm (to an airport 250nm away from OPD), pick up a 2
year-old girl with wearing a cute hat with bunny ears, and a backpack to aid
her liver/kidney transplant. Fly her and her Mom to Palo Alto (250nm).

Round trip = 300nm + 250nm = $550. That's just $50 extra, but wait, there's
more, have your VISA card ready for the tax man to *credit*. It is all tax
deductable. Let's assume a 35% tax brakcet (use your own number (just a
complete guess)). Your longer flight now only cost you $360 - that's almost
a $200 SAVING!!!

And what's more, it is possible to write something like what I did for my
Angel Flight with Katherine: "The head-winds and the small delay in finding
one another at Lincoln meant we arrived in Palo Alto slightly behind
schedule. We unpacked the aircraft and I helped load up the van. Despite
their running late, Kelli must have thanked me several times. Once was
plenty; her appreciation was obvious. I began waving at Katherine hoping to
catch her attention for a good-bye wave. For her, this simply did not
suffice - she wanted to give me a hug. I obligingly knelt down and was
embraced by the most adorable little 2 year-old girl one could imagine. She
followed up the bear hug with a kiss on my cheek.

I've always wanted to help people by contributing in the form of charity,
but unfortunately not being one with limitless patience, I have never quite
found the appropriate vehicle for this desire. Aviation and Angel Flight
have allowed me to achieve this goal. Each of my two Angel Flights to date
has rewarded me in ways I had never expected. It will be a long time before
I can climb in the Cutlass without remembering the shining person sitting in
the back. Katherine is a girl who is full of life."

Everytime I read this, well, it's pretty emotional, even more so now that I
have two beautiful healthy little girls.

Dave, it's just as idea. As always, do what makes you and those around you
most comfortable. But just in case: http://www.angelflight.org :)

Hilton

[Peter Duniho]

"Hilton" > wrote in message
k.net...
> [...]
> Round trip = 300nm + 250nm = $550. That's just $50 extra, but wait,
> there's
> more, have your VISA card ready for the tax man to *credit*. It is all
> tax
> deductable. Let's assume a 35% tax brakcet (use your own number (just a
> complete guess)). Your longer flight now only cost you $360 - that's
> almost
> a $200 SAVING!!!

A full-time student, strapped for cash, paying 35% in income tax?

Right.

More likely he doesn't have to pay income tax at all, assuming there's any
significant income, after deducting educational costs. But even if he does,
he's probably looking at a 15% savings, tops.

Your information certainly is a good way to sell Angel Flight or similar,
but it hardly seems applicable here.

Pete

[Hilton]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> Hilton wrote:
> > [...]
> > Round trip = 300nm + 250nm = $550. That's just $50 extra, but wait,
> > there's
> > more, have your VISA card ready for the tax man to *credit*. It is all
> > tax
> > deductable. Let's assume a 35% tax brakcet (use your own number (just a
> > complete guess)). Your longer flight now only cost you $360 - that's
> > almost
> > a $200 SAVING!!!
>
> A full-time student, strapped for cash, paying 35% in income tax?
>
> Right.

10% tax bracket breaks even, plus he logs a little more time, plus he does
an Angel Flight etc.


> More likely he doesn't have to pay income tax at all, assuming there's any
> significant income, after deducting educational costs. But even if he
does,
> he's probably looking at a 15% savings, tops.

Pete, whatever the numbers (we obviously don't know Dave's situation), it
was $50 more (worst case), but probably less, and he gets to do an Angel
Flight which, IMHO, is a pretty darn cool thing to do - I can remember each
and every one of mine. It's not all fun and games though - I've flown too
many people that have passed away, as young as just a few months old. It's
tough trying to sit at your desk working after receiving a "Sad News" email
from Cheri. But I still think it is something special, and seriously worth
considering. And getting back to your money issue, the worst case is $50
more (zero refund) - just 10% tax bracket is break even.


> Your information certainly is a good way to sell Angel Flight or similar,
> but it hardly seems applicable here.

Since neither of us know Dave's tax bracket, we really don't know. FYI: I
have no idea how much tax I pay - I just guessed at the 35% number (he did
mention PAO :)) - and as you say, it could be 0% too.

Dave, it was just a thought and perhaps something you hadn't considered.

Hilton

[[email protected]]

Hilton, I understand now. See, r.a.p is really about learning!

As you know, but others on the group don't, I currently make decent
money in Silicon Valley -- your estimate of my tax bracket is
plausible. However, that will all come to a stop soon, when I go back
school. (Now, why would someone leave good money for school? -- that's
a story for a different newsgroup. But I will say that of all the perks
of a salary I'll miss the most, it's easy access to aviation.)

Now, I will think about joining Angel Flight. It looks like I've got
the hours they're looking for. What are their restrictions w.r.t using
rental A/C? Also, I don't have my own insurance, I rely on my club's
policy. (Of which members are named insured, so I can't be subrogated.)
How does that fly, so to speak?

I think doing Angel flight really would be cool, though.

-- dave j

[Andrew Gideon]

kontiki wrote:

> Pick a place you've never been before and just enjoy the ride.
> Every flight can be a learning experience if you want it to be.

That's what I planned. I planned to visit Maine; a place I've never been.

However, I went a little further. The *flight* has to be solo, but not the
visit. I found a couple of pilots that were interested in making the same
trip. So at least there'd be friends with which to eat.

Unfortunately, my wife's pregnancy shifted gears a bit so I'm staying in the
neighborhood. But I'm going to try the same plan when I can finally fly
again.

- Andrew

P.S. How did you decide that it needed to be VFR?

[Andrew Gideon]

wrote:

> I had one
> instructor that was fond of saying night flying is instrument flying,
> regardless of the rules you fly under. I usually think of it that way.

Sometimes, but not always.

My night XC for the commercial was under a high overcast. There was enough
light that it was definitely *not* instrument-like.

It was a spectacular flight in one respect: The moon was hidden by the
overcast, but for a while I could see it reflected in the Hudson. A moon
below, and none above...nice.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

John Gaquin wrote:

> sometimes heading over here or there if it looked interesting, then
> pick up the chart,

Didn't some guy (and a student pilot/passenger) recently do something of
this sort out of Smoketown, PA?

- Andrew

[John Gaquin]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
>
> Didn't some guy (and a student pilot/passenger) recently do something of
> this sort out of Smoketown, PA?

Not at all. He was using charts, but outdated, and thus (huh?) was unable
to recognize an urban area that comprises the most publicized restricted
area in the world. Can you spell "room temp IQ"?

[Montblack]

("John Gaquin" wrote)
> Not at all. He was using charts, but outdated, and thus (huh?) was unable
> to recognize an urban area that comprises the most publicized restricted
> area in the world. Can you spell "room temp IQ"?


Fahrenheit or Celsius?


Montblack

[Hilton]

Dave,

Sorry for the delay - been outa town a bit.

[zap]

Note: I'm speaking from memory and my experience with Angel Flight West.

> Now, I will think about joining Angel Flight. It looks like I've got
> the hours they're looking for. What are their restrictions w.r.t using
> rental A/C?

None.


> Also, I don't have my own insurance, I rely on my club's
> policy. (Of which members are named insured, so I can't be subrogated.)
> How does that fly, so to speak?

I don't know. I believe you need to have your own insurance, but I guess if
you can prove that the insurance if current (do you check before each
flight) and that you are named, it might fly. Check with them though.


> I think doing Angel flight really would be cool, though.

It is. BTW: If looks like a LOT of work, but it isn't. You see a 'mission'
on their web site. You call: "Hi Amanda, I'd like Mission 12345", "Sure!".
You get a fax, you call the people and say: "Hi, I'm Dave from Angel Flight,
let's meet on Saturday at Charlie's FBO at 1pm, work for you?" You pick 'em
up, have them sign a form, and off you go. Easy!

Video:
http://www.angelflight.org/press/index.html

Hilton

[Marty Shapiro]

"Hilton" > wrote in
k.net:

[snip]

>> Also, I don't have my own insurance, I rely on my club's
>> policy. (Of which members are named insured, so I can't be
>> subrogated.) How does that fly, so to speak?
>
> I don't know. I believe you need to have your own insurance, but I
> guess if you can prove that the insurance if current (do you check
> before each flight) and that you are named, it might fly. Check with
> them though.
>
>

No, you do not need your own insurance. You do need to supply proof of
insurance. I've used rental aircraft from two different FBO's at Reid-
Hillview and both met the insurance requirements. If other members of your
flying club or FBO are already Angel Flight members, you just have to let
the AF office know that the insurance is already on file.

From the Angel Flight West web pages (www.angelflight.org):

"The pilot applicant must provide proof of insurance of at least $500,000
liability coverage with a minimum limit of $100,000 per seat.Copy of
certificate of insurance on the pilot applicant’s own aircraft or “renter’s
insurance” if the pilot applicant is renting aircraft. If the pilot
applicant belongs to a flying club, he/she must supply a copy of the
insurance in force for the aircraft you are qualified to fly. Flying club
members are also subject to the minimum insurance requirements."

[snip]

-----
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Hilton]

Hey Marty,


> No, you do not need your own insurance. You do need to supply proof of
> insurance.
[zap]

I stand corrected - thanks. Still, I would strongly recommend that pilots
don't rely on not being subrogated and go get their own insurance. So why
do AFW require any insurance at all?

1. The passenger signs away on the form, and
2. Their is no guarantee that the club's or your insurance will be
'current'

Just thinking out aloud.

Hilton

[Marty Shapiro]

"Hilton" > wrote in
k.net:

> Hey Marty,
>
>
>> No, you do not need your own insurance. You do need to supply proof
>> of insurance.
> [zap]
>
> I stand corrected - thanks. Still, I would strongly recommend that
> pilots don't rely on not being subrogated and go get their own
> insurance.

ALWAYS CHECK THE POLICY! Look for a subrogation/no subrogation
clause. If there is no subrogation clause (or if your state bars
subrogation) duplicating the coverage won't buy you anything you don't
already have. One large flying club in the SF Bay area states "no
subrogation clause" on their web site.

So why do AFW require any insurance at all?
>
> 1. The passenger signs away on the form, and

I've been told that some courts have ruled you can sue even if you
have waived the right to do so. Hopefully a lawyer reading this can
provide more information.

> 2. Their is no guarantee that the club's or your insurance will be
> 'current'
>
> Just thinking out aloud.
>
> Hilton
>
>
>

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Peter Clark]

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 09:41:32 GMT, Marty Shapiro
> wrote:

>> 1. The passenger signs away on the form, and
>
> I've been told that some courts have ruled you can sue even if you
>have waived the right to do so. Hopefully a lawyer reading this can
>provide more information.

From what I remember, you can sign away *your* right to do something
(so if the pax gets hurt they can't sue), but you can't sign away
someone *else's* right to do something, so if they're killed the
family can still sue, regardless of the form.

[Gary Drescher]

"Hilton" > wrote in message
k.net...
> It is. BTW: If looks like a LOT of work, but it isn't. You see a
> 'mission'
> on their web site. You call: "Hi Amanda, I'd like Mission 12345",
> "Sure!".
> You get a fax, you call the people and say: "Hi, I'm Dave from Angel
> Flight,
> let's meet on Saturday at Charlie's FBO at 1pm, work for you?" You pick
> 'em
> up, have them sign a form, and off you go. Easy!

These days the technology has advanced a little, making it even easier (at
least here on the East coast). You just request the mission using the web
form (no phone call is needed, though you can do it that way if you prefer),
and the reply is via email rather than fax. :)

--Gary

[Gary Drescher]

"Marty Shapiro" > wrote in message
...
> "Hilton" > wrote in
> k.net:
>
>> Hey Marty,
>>
>>
>>> No, you do not need your own insurance. You do need to supply proof
>>> of insurance.
>> [zap]
>>
>> I stand corrected - thanks. Still, I would strongly recommend that
>> pilots don't rely on not being subrogated and go get their own
>> insurance.
>
> ALWAYS CHECK THE POLICY! Look for a subrogation/no subrogation
> clause. If there is no subrogation clause (or if your state bars
> subrogation) duplicating the coverage won't buy you anything you don't
> already have. One large flying club in the SF Bay area states "no
> subrogation clause" on their web site.

My FBO's web site refers to pilots as "additional insured", which is the
same thing. (I carry renter's insurance anyway though, in case I'm traveling
and rent from a remote FBO).

--Gary

[Hilton]

A Silicon Valley resident, not to be beaten by Gary's East Coast technology
writes ;)

> These days the technology has advanced a little, making it even easier (at
> least here on the East coast). You just request the mission using the web
> form (no phone call is needed, though you can do it that way if you
prefer),
> and the reply is via email rather than fax. :)

I think it's the same here, but I like calling Cheri et al (VERY nice
people), because sometimes they'll say something like: "I know it says SJC,
but they live closer to RHV, it that OK?" - or especially on multi-leg
flights, perhaps the meeting point can be negotiated. I've also heard
"Hilton, John just picked up this flight, how about this other flight that
isn't even on the web site yet?" But, I've also done the web/email thing,
definitely quick and convenient - and the web site tells you what number you
are in line (just to set expectations).

The point we're both making is that it is EASY, and not as difficult as it
sometimes sounds. Just that I've had numerous people ask me about all the
paperwork, phone calls, etc etc etc - that shouldn't scare them. FYI: AFW
(and others?) dropped the 'checkout' requirement a while back, but they
upped the hours required.

Hilton

[Peter Duniho]

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> From what I remember, you can sign away *your* right to do something
> (so if the pax gets hurt they can't sue), but you can't sign away
> someone *else's* right to do something, so if they're killed the
> family can still sue, regardless of the form.

Though, keeping in mind that their lawsuit would not be similar to the
deceased's estate's lawsuit, if I understand correctly. That is, they would
have to demonstrate damages to themselves, not just to the deceased. They
won't be able to sue on behalf of the deceased, nor would the estate.

You'd need an expert (which I'm not) to explain what the exact difference
would be, but I would say that for a start, the person being sued could wind
up on the hook for a lifetime of income (if the deceased was the principal
wage earner) or not much at all (if the deceased had little to do with
supporting the surviving family).

It would all depend on the situation, but in any case would be a different
situation than having the estate come after you.

And of course, this scenario exists with or without the waiver, so this
tangent is really just an example of what the waiver doesn't protect
against. The waiver still does accomplish something, and it shouldn't
create new liability. :)

Pete

[Scott Draper]

<<Is this something like the PPL where you have to get an instructor
to sign off on it to prove it was done within 61.127(b)(1)>>

There is no such requirement for the PPL or CPL.

[Scott Draper]

<<That means long trips I've done on instrument flight plans (imc or
vmc) won't cut it,>>

Yes, they do. The long x/c can be IFR.

[Peter Clark]

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:06:41 GMT, Scott Draper
> wrote:

><<Is this something like the PPL where you have to get an instructor
>to sign off on it to prove it was done within 61.127(b)(1)>>
>
>There is no such requirement for the PPL or CPL.

So a student pilot can launch off on a solo XC without an instructor
endorsement? Or are you quibbling on "prove it was done within 61.x",
meeting the standards of which are implied by the instructor endorsing
the flight in the case of the PPL.