WW II - Diesel birds?

[Cougar]

Somebody on another forum was trying to convince people that
because of the gasoline shortages during WW-II that there were
quiet a few aircraft that actually used diesel fuel.

I know that people are playing with that today, but was it
really used in aviation back then?

Thanks,
Coug

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 27 May 2005 15:04:54 -0700, Cougar >
wrote:

>Somebody on another forum was trying to convince people that
>because of the gasoline shortages during WW-II that there were
>quiet a few aircraft that actually used diesel fuel.
>
>I know that people are playing with that today, but was it
>really used in aviation back then?

Diesel powered aircraft were tried during the 1930s, but not
particularly successful. Giuseppe Bellanca (at least) tried one or
more versions but none made it past the "experimental" stage.

There were no naval aircraft that I know of that used diesels.

There is one modern company in Austria producing them. Go to
http://www.diamondair.com/contentc/TwinFlies.htm

Bill Kambic

[Peter Stickney]

wrote:

> On Fri, 27 May 2005 15:04:54 -0700, Cougar
> > wrote:
>
>>Somebody on another forum was trying to convince people that
>>because of the gasoline shortages during WW-II that there were
>>quiet a few aircraft that actually used diesel fuel.
>>
>>I know that people are playing with that today, but was it
>>really used in aviation back then?
>
> Diesel powered aircraft were tried during the 1930s, but not
> particularly successful. Giuseppe Bellanca (at least) tried one or
> more versions but none made it past the "experimental" stage.
>
> There were no naval aircraft that I know of that used diesels.

The Germans had some Junkers Diesel powered Maritime Patrols
airplanes.
The Blohm & Voss Bv 138 Flying Boat "Die Fleigende Hoelshue / Flying
Clog" was probably the most numerous, and, IIRC, there was a Deisel
powered flavor of the Bv 222.

The Soviet Pe-8 heavy bomber also was originally Diesel powered.
During the summer of 1941, they launched a dozen or so of them on a
raid on Berlin. I don't think any got back to their original base -
they all force landed due to engine failures.

--
Pete Stickney
Java Man knew nothing about coffee.

[Gord Beaman]

Cougar > wrote:

>Somebody on another forum was trying to convince people that
>because of the gasoline shortages during WW-II that there were
>quiet a few aircraft that actually used diesel fuel.
>
>I know that people are playing with that today, but was it
>really used in aviation back then?
>
>Thanks,
>Coug

The way that this is written seems to hint that some gasoline
powered aircraft might have been run on diesel...if that's the
case then I can assure you that it didn't happen...
--


-Gord.

"I'm trying to get as old as I can,
and it must be working 'cause I'm
the oldest now that I've ever been"

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 27 May 2005 19:28:16 -0700, Peter Stickney
> wrote:

>> There were no naval aircraft that I know of that used diesels.
>
>The Germans had some Junkers Diesel powered Maritime Patrols
>airplanes.
>The Blohm & Voss Bv 138 Flying Boat "Die Fleigende Hoelshue / Flying
>Clog" was probably the most numerous, and, IIRC, there was a Deisel
>powered flavor of the Bv 222.
>
>The Soviet Pe-8 heavy bomber also was originally Diesel powered.
>During the summer of 1941, they launched a dozen or so of them on a
>raid on Berlin. I don't think any got back to their original base -
>they all force landed due to engine failures.

Interesting. You learn something new every day! :-)

Still, it doesn't seem that they were too successful as their numbers
were small (and the Russian example would not give too many "warm
fuzzies" to a commander).

It will be interesting to see if the Diamond people can make a "go" of
it with their design.

Bill Kambic

[Max Richter]

a few JU 86 highflying reconissance Planes used twostroke Junkers Jumo
205C-4 liquid-cooled Diesel engines for patrol over Great Britain.

Cougar schrieb:

> Somebody on another forum was trying to convince people that
> because of the gasoline shortages during WW-II that there were
> quiet a few aircraft that actually used diesel fuel.
>
> I know that people are playing with that today, but was it
> really used in aviation back then?
>
> Thanks,
> Coug

[Keith W]

"Cougar" > wrote in message
...
> Somebody on another forum was trying to convince people that
> because of the gasoline shortages during WW-II that there were
> quiet a few aircraft that actually used diesel fuel.
>
> I know that people are playing with that today, but was it
> really used in aviation back then?
>
> Thanks,
> Coug

The Germans built a number in the 30's , the Jumo J-204 was a
6 cylinder , vertically opposed 12 piston engine with 2 crankshafts
connected by chain developing around 600HP
It was quite heavy but had excellent fuel consumption
and was built under license in Britain as
the Napier Culverin and used in a variety of aircraft
including some Ju-52's

Keith

[Keith W]

"Max Richter" > wrote in message
...
>a few JU 86 highflying reconissance Planes used twostroke Junkers Jumo
> 205C-4 liquid-cooled Diesel engines for patrol over Great Britain.
>

The Jumo 205 for this version also was equipped with a pair of centrifugal
superchargers mounted in series. The cabin pressure was provided by
tapping the port engine-driven blower.

Pre-war the Napier company had licensed the Jumo design
as the Culverin and although development of it stopped in
1939 ir was to become the basis for the post war Napier Nomad

This was a real beast essentially consisting of 2 enlarged Culverins
connected in the form of an H block acting as gas generator
for a gas turbine that drove the propellor and just for good
measure it had an afterburner for take off. making it a 24 piston
12 cylinder Diesel engine and gas turbine with reheat !


Keith.

[Andrew Robert Breen]

In article >,
Cougar > wrote:
>Somebody on another forum was trying to convince people that
>because of the gasoline shortages during WW-II that there were
>quiet a few aircraft that actually used diesel fuel.
>
>I know that people are playing with that today, but was it
>really used in aviation back then?

More pre-WW2 than during: the Germans were keen on lightweight
(for some value of lightweight) 2-stroke aerodiesels, using
them in several flying boat designs. These Junkers opposed-
piston designs were licenced pre-war by Napier (as the Culverin)
but they never saw much use in .uk
During the war - well, /particularly/ for the germans considerations
of absolute fuel economy soon became secondary to improving performance
so aerodiesels fell out of use for all but maritime patrol a/c which
might expect to be operating away from fighter opposition - the
Dornier 18 and the Blohm und Voss 138(? the 3-engined flying shoe)
continued to use diesels until the advent of the escort 'carrier
saw an end to their activities.
The allies (and the italians, and the japanese) never really
bothered with aero-diesels for warplanes, for fairly obvious
reasons.
Post-war there was nearly a come-back, with the Napier Nomad
turbo-compound (a hybrid diesel-gas turbine engine, with the
diesel driving the compressor stage) proposed for an evolution
of the Shackleton. I believe it's still the among the most
fuel-efficient engines ever built, but it never went into
production.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

[old hoodoo]

Cougar wrote:
> Somebody on another forum was trying to convince people that
> because of the gasoline shortages during WW-II that there were
> quiet a few aircraft that actually used diesel fuel.
>
> I know that people are playing with that today, but was it
> really used in aviation back then?
>
> Thanks,
> Coug

140 Ju-86D's.

276 Bv-138's. All used the Junkers Jumo 205

These were not used due to gas shortages.

I think the Ju-86's might have been an attempt to use the
diesels to see how they would work out in service (better engines
replaced them) and perhaps the Bv-138 used them due to their intended
use in conjunction with naval vessels.

[J DUDLEY]

"old hoodoo" > wrote in message
news:EO7me.74275$yV4.25134@okepread03...
>
>
> Cougar wrote:
>> Somebody on another forum was trying to convince people that
>> because of the gasoline shortages during WW-II that there were
>> quiet a few aircraft that actually used diesel fuel.
>>
>> I know that people are playing with that today, but was it
>> really used in aviation back then?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Coug
>
> 140 Ju-86D's.
>
> 276 Bv-138's. All used the Junkers Jumo 205
>
> These were not used due to gas shortages.
>
> I think the Ju-86's might have been an attempt to use the diesels
> to see how they would work out in service (better engines replaced them)
> and perhaps the Bv-138 used them due to their intended use in conjunction
> with naval vessels.

The Ju 86s were a combination of two hopes - greater range, and greater
power from the diesels. But the lack of acceleration killed this off, as
even in?1936? it was clear that the diesel-engined Ju 86s were 'easy meat'
compared to the petrol variant. As an earlier poster reported, where
altitude was needed, not acceleration, then diesel-engined variants had a
future - but when fighters could reach those altitudes, it was again the end
of the diesel.

[R Leonard]

And for what it's worth, there were even diesel model airplane engines,
at least in the years immediately after WWII. I've a couple of flying
model airplanes my father built in the 1946 to 1950 period so equipped.


Rich

[Dave in San Diego]

"R Leonard" > wrote in news:1117507544.101576.304210
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> And for what it's worth, there were even diesel model airplane engines,
> at least in the years immediately after WWII. I've a couple of flying
> model airplanes my father built in the 1946 to 1950 period so equipped.

Many model airplane engines today are still two-stroke diesels. They start
with a glow plug and continue running after starting just the way big
diesels do.

Dave in San Diego

[Gord Beaman]

"R Leonard" > wrote:

>And for what it's worth, there were even diesel model airplane engines,
>at least in the years immediately after WWII. I've a couple of flying
>model airplanes my father built in the 1946 to 1950 period so equipped.
>
>
>Rich

Sure...aren't most model a/c engines Diesel?...I've had several
way back when I was young...(in the fifties) they all had
glo-plugs for starting and none had an ignition system...mine
were all two stroke cycle Diesels... much simpler.
--


-Gord.

"I'm trying to get as old as I can,
and it must be working 'cause I'm
the oldest now that I've ever been"

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 31 May 2005 04:35:22 GMT, Gord Beaman >
wrote:

>"R Leonard" > wrote:
>
>>And for what it's worth, there were even diesel model airplane engines,
>>at least in the years immediately after WWII. I've a couple of flying
>>model airplanes my father built in the 1946 to 1950 period so equipped.
>>
>>
>>Rich
>
>Sure...aren't most model a/c engines Diesel?...I've had several
>way back when I was young...(in the fifties) they all had
>glo-plugs for starting and none had an ignition system...mine
>were all two stroke cycle Diesels... much simpler.

I had 'em, too. They did function on the same principle as diesels,
but were powered by a form of gasoline. They were not powered by
diesel fuel.

The only aircraft trying it today, that I know of, are the Diamond
people. Personally, I'd like to see them "pull it off." Time will
tell.

Bill Kambic

[John Miller]

Dave in San Diego wrote:
> Many model airplane engines today are still two-stroke diesels. They
start
> with a glow plug and continue running after starting just the way big
> diesels do.

Close, but for clarification:

o There are diesel model engines today. They run at a higher
compression than glow engines, and run on diesel fuel, rather than glow
fuel, which is basically a methanol/oil mix. Typically, they don't have
glow plugs.

o Glow engines, although they appear to run on the heat of compression,
won't continue running without a hot glow plug filament. (After the
engine is running, and battery voltage is removed, the filament
continues to glow from the heat of ignition, the ignition having been
caused by the glowing filament.)

--
John Miller
email domain: n4vu.com; username: jsm(@)
Surplus (For sale or trade):

[Keith W]

"John Miller" > wrote in message
...
> Dave in San Diego wrote:
> > Many model airplane engines today are still two-stroke diesels. They
> start
>> with a glow plug and continue running after starting just the way big
>> diesels do.
>
> Close, but for clarification:
>
> o There are diesel model engines today. They run at a higher
> compression than glow engines, and run on diesel fuel, rather than glow
> fuel, which is basically a methanol/oil mix. Typically, they don't have
> glow plugs.
>
> o Glow engines, although they appear to run on the heat of compression,
> won't continue running without a hot glow plug filament. (After the
> engine is running, and battery voltage is removed, the filament
> continues to glow from the heat of ignition, the ignition having been
> caused by the glowing filament.)
>

Glow plugs were used on gasoline engines long before the
spark plug was invented. On early engines the glow plug
had to be heated with a blowlamp before the engine
could be started. The plug itself was a copper or
brass rod that protruded into the cyliner.

Keith




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[Gord Beaman]

wrote:

>On Tue, 31 May 2005 04:35:22 GMT, Gord Beaman >
>wrote:
>
>>"R Leonard" > wrote:
>>
>>>And for what it's worth, there were even diesel model airplane engines,
>>>at least in the years immediately after WWII. I've a couple of flying
>>>model airplanes my father built in the 1946 to 1950 period so equipped.
>>>
>>>
>>>Rich
>>
>>Sure...aren't most model a/c engines Diesel?...I've had several
>>way back when I was young...(in the fifties) they all had
>>glo-plugs for starting and none had an ignition system...mine
>>were all two stroke cycle Diesels... much simpler.
>
>I had 'em, too. They did function on the same principle as diesels,
>but were powered by a form of gasoline. They were not powered by
>diesel fuel.
>

Yes, thanks Bill...I knew that they didn't use diesel fuel,
smells much more potent to me...someone mentioned here that they
use the heated filament as a hot-spot for ignition (for the
running phase) rather than compression heat (as in a true diesel)
which makes sense.

--


-Gord.

"I'm trying to get as old as I can,
and it must be working 'cause I'm
the oldest now that I've ever been"

[Roger Conroy]

"Peter Stickney" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry for jumping in late - I'm replying to Bill Kambic, too.
> (No Offence, Bill, Finger Trouble on my part)
>
> Gord Beaman wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 31 May 2005 04:35:22 GMT, Gord Beaman
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"R Leonard" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>And for what it's worth, there were even diesel model airplane
>>>>>engines,
>>>>>at least in the years immediately after WWII. I've a couple of
>>>>>flying model airplanes my father built in the 1946 to 1950 period
>>>>>so equipped.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Rich
>>>>
>>>>Sure...aren't most model a/c engines Diesel?...I've had several
>>>>way back when I was young...(in the fifties) they all had
>>>>glo-plugs for starting and none had an ignition system...mine
>>>>were all two stroke cycle Diesels... much simpler.
>>>
>>>I had 'em, too. They did function on the same principle as diesels,
>>>but were powered by a form of gasoline. They were not powered by
>>>diesel fuel.
>
> Model Airplane Glow Fuel is usually Methanol, with something (Usually
> Castor Oil) added to make it lubricate better. High performance
> fuels used to have Nitromethane added in as well. I don't know if
> they still do that.
>
> AFAIK, the model diesels did run on kerosene.
> I've never run one, but I've seen a couple. Neat little widgets.
> There isn't a whole lot of difference between them and a glow engine
> in construction, save for the head. Instead of a glow plug, they've
> got a screw that adjusts an opposing "piston", allowing you to change
> the combustion chamber volume and therefore the compression ratio.
>
>
>>>
>>
>> Yes, thanks Bill...I knew that they didn't use diesel fuel,
>> smells much more potent to me...someone mentioned here that they
>> use the heated filament as a hot-spot for ignition (for the
>> running phase) rather than compression heat (as in a true diesel)
>> which makes sense.
>
> That's the way I understand it. The glow plug's wire must not
> transfer heat to the head very well.
>
>
>
> --
> Pete Stickney
> Java Man knew nothing about coffee.

AFAIK the glow wire is made of/plated with platinum - some kind of catalytic
effect on methanol keeps the wire hot.

[John Dallman]

In article >,
(J DUDLEY) wrote:

> power from the diesels. But the lack of acceleration killed this off,
> as even in?1936? it was clear that the diesel-engined Ju 86s were 'easy
> meat' compared to the petrol variant. As an earlier poster reported,
> where altitude was needed, not acceleration, then diesel-engined
> variants had a future - but when fighters could reach those altitudes,
> it was again the end of the diesel.

Yes - the high-altitude variant was moderately successful for a while,
then some Spitfires were stripped down until they could make the altitude.
That stopped German reece over the UK mainland until they got Arado 234s.

---
John Dallman, , HTML mail is treated as probable spam.

[Peter Stickney]

Sorry for jumping in late - I'm replying to Bill Kambic, too.
(No Offence, Bill, Finger Trouble on my part)

Gord Beaman wrote:

> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 31 May 2005 04:35:22 GMT, Gord Beaman
> wrote:
>>
>>>"R Leonard" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>And for what it's worth, there were even diesel model airplane
>>>>engines,
>>>>at least in the years immediately after WWII. I've a couple of
>>>>flying model airplanes my father built in the 1946 to 1950 period
>>>>so equipped.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Rich
>>>
>>>Sure...aren't most model a/c engines Diesel?...I've had several
>>>way back when I was young...(in the fifties) they all had
>>>glo-plugs for starting and none had an ignition system...mine
>>>were all two stroke cycle Diesels... much simpler.
>>
>>I had 'em, too. They did function on the same principle as diesels,
>>but were powered by a form of gasoline. They were not powered by
>>diesel fuel.

Model Airplane Glow Fuel is usually Methanol, with something (Usually
Castor Oil) added to make it lubricate better. High performance
fuels used to have Nitromethane added in as well. I don't know if
they still do that.

AFAIK, the model diesels did run on kerosene.
I've never run one, but I've seen a couple. Neat little widgets.
There isn't a whole lot of difference between them and a glow engine
in construction, save for the head. Instead of a glow plug, they've
got a screw that adjusts an opposing "piston", allowing you to change
the combustion chamber volume and therefore the compression ratio.


>>
>
> Yes, thanks Bill...I knew that they didn't use diesel fuel,
> smells much more potent to me...someone mentioned here that they
> use the heated filament as a hot-spot for ignition (for the
> running phase) rather than compression heat (as in a true diesel)
> which makes sense.

That's the way I understand it. The glow plug's wire must not
transfer heat to the head very well.



--
Pete Stickney
Java Man knew nothing about coffee.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Peter Stickney > wrote:

(snip)
> >>>Sure...aren't most model a/c engines Diesel?...I've had several
> >>>way back when I was young...(in the fifties) they all had
> >>>glo-plugs for starting and none had an ignition system...mine
> >>>were all two stroke cycle Diesels... much simpler.
> >>
> >>I had 'em, too. They did function on the same principle as diesels,
> >>but were powered by a form of gasoline. They were not powered by
> >>diesel fuel.
>
> Model Airplane Glow Fuel is usually Methanol, with something (Usually
> Castor Oil) added to make it lubricate better. High performance
> fuels used to have Nitromethane added in as well. I don't know if
> they still do that.
>
> AFAIK, the model diesels did run on kerosene.
> I've never run one, but I've seen a couple. Neat little widgets.
> There isn't a whole lot of difference between them and a glow engine
> in construction, save for the head. Instead of a glow plug, they've
> got a screw that adjusts an opposing "piston", allowing you to change
> the combustion chamber volume and therefore the compression ratio.

I had a model Diesel in the late 1950's. It did not run on kerosene, but
ether, with castor oil as a lubricant. They were a true Diesel, as they
did not have a glow plug or any other external source of ignition.

The glow plug engines used methanol/castor oil with nitromethane as a
kicker. I used to make some homebrew fuels for the glow plug engines
with methanol/castor oil. It worked but needed the nitromethane to make
the engines run well.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Gord Beaman]

Orval Fairbairn > wrote:

>In article >,
> Peter Stickney > wrote:
>
>(snip)
>> >>>Sure...aren't most model a/c engines Diesel?...I've had several
>> >>>way back when I was young...(in the fifties) they all had
>> >>>glo-plugs for starting and none had an ignition system...mine
>> >>>were all two stroke cycle Diesels... much simpler.
>> >>
>> >>I had 'em, too. They did function on the same principle as diesels,
>> >>but were powered by a form of gasoline. They were not powered by
>> >>diesel fuel.
>>
>> Model Airplane Glow Fuel is usually Methanol, with something (Usually
>> Castor Oil) added to make it lubricate better. High performance
>> fuels used to have Nitromethane added in as well. I don't know if
>> they still do that.
>>
>> AFAIK, the model diesels did run on kerosene.
>> I've never run one, but I've seen a couple. Neat little widgets.
>> There isn't a whole lot of difference between them and a glow engine
>> in construction, save for the head. Instead of a glow plug, they've
>> got a screw that adjusts an opposing "piston", allowing you to change
>> the combustion chamber volume and therefore the compression ratio.
>
>I had a model Diesel in the late 1950's. It did not run on kerosene, but
>ether, with castor oil as a lubricant. They were a true Diesel, as they
>did not have a glow plug or any other external source of ignition.
>
>The glow plug engines used methanol/castor oil with nitromethane as a
>kicker. I used to make some homebrew fuels for the glow plug engines
>with methanol/castor oil. It worked but needed the nitromethane to make
>the engines run well.

A funny story...while in the Air Force (way back) I had a little
Arden (forget the size now). It was mounted on a small
free-flight model. One of the guys who wasn't familiar with them
was looking it over, he commented that "that tiny engine doesn't
look big enough to power that model", so I bet him $20 that if I
started it he wouldn't stick his finger into the prop...I'm sure
that he pictured the engine 'put-putting' along and the prop sort
of ticking over...long story short, I started it...he paid
instantly...those things engendered lots of respect. I wonder how
much they actually did put out?
--


-Gord.

"I'm trying to get as old as I can,
and it must be working 'cause I'm
the oldest now that I've ever been"

[Nele VII]

Peter Stickney wrote in message >...
<snip>
>
>The Soviet Pe-8 heavy bomber also was originally Diesel powered.
>During the summer of 1941, they launched a dozen or so of them on a
>raid on Berlin. I don't think any got back to their original base -
>they all force landed due to engine failures.
>

The failure of their M-40 diesel engines sent their designer to the labour camp... and
success of M-30 back from it! (well, it was a kind of success :-)

The "success" was the other diesel-powered bomber. That was Ermolayev Er-2 which used
various diesels, M-30 and M-30b (later ACh-30b) being most sucessful. Long-range,
twin-engined, twin-tailed aircraft with gull wings was made in small series with various
aircraft engines (almost all available except radials!) troughout the war. Its latest
version, with ACh-30b diesels, actually beat Il-4 in trials and was used until the end of
the war (and developed after the war!). However, there was always the production quality
problem of the diesels built in small series, and the Chief Designer died from meningitis
in 1944.

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

[[email protected]]

There was a Guiberson radial aircooled diesel engine prior to WW2. I
understand some were used in the US Army's light tanks. After teh war a
lot of thyem were used in Southern California orange groves. They were
mounted on stout poles and they spun props to prevent cold air from
pooling in the groves.
Also, I read that the Ju86 diesel engines were fine when set at a
constant RPM setting but the continual variance while flying formation
cut the engine life drastically - so that was that for the diesel
engine. Contrastingly, it did good service in the BV238 on ocean patrol
duties, where the low fuel consumption paid dividends.
Anybody know anything about the European development of a diesel for
light aircraft?
Walt BJ

[Tex Houston]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> There was a Guiberson radial aircooled diesel engine prior to WW2. I
> understand some were used in the US Army's light tanks. After teh war a
> lot of thyem were used in Southern California orange groves. They were
> mounted on stout poles and they spun props to prevent cold air from
> pooling in the groves.
> Also, I read that the Ju86 diesel engines were fine when set at a
> constant RPM setting but the continual variance while flying formation
> cut the engine life drastically - so that was that for the diesel
> engine. Contrastingly, it did good service in the BV238 on ocean patrol
> duties, where the low fuel consumption paid dividends.
> Anybody know anything about the European development of a diesel for
> light aircraft?
> Walt BJ
>
The first time I went to March AFB TDY (1964?) there were still some of the
engines mounted on poles in groves on University Avenue which runs between
downtown and the University. Most of the locals still called it 8th Avenue,
its former name.

Tex

[[email protected]]

On 3 Jun 2005 19:02:55 -0700, wrote:

>Anybody know anything about the European development of a diesel for
>light aircraft?

There is one modern company in Austria producing them. Go to
http://www.diamondair.com/contentc/TwinFlies.htm

Bill Kambic

[Lynn Coffelt]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Peter Stickney > wrote:
> >
> >(snip)
> >> >>>Sure...aren't most model a/c engines Diesel?...I've had several
> >> >>>way back when I was young...(in the fifties) they all had
> >> >>>glo-plugs for starting and none had an ignition system...mine
> >> >>>were all two stroke cycle Diesels... much simpler.
> >> >>
> >> >>I had 'em, too. They did function on the same principle as diesels,
> >> >>but were powered by a form of gasoline. They were not powered by
> >> >>diesel fuel.
> >>
> >> Model Airplane Glow Fuel is usually Methanol, with something (Usually
> >> Castor Oil) added to make it lubricate better. High performance
> >> fuels used to have Nitromethane added in as well. I don't know if
> >> they still do that.
> >>
> >> AFAIK, the model diesels did run on kerosene.
> >> I've never run one, but I've seen a couple. Neat little widgets.
> >> There isn't a whole lot of difference between them and a glow engine
> >> in construction, save for the head. Instead of a glow plug, they've
> >> got a screw that adjusts an opposing "piston", allowing you to change
> >> the combustion chamber volume and therefore the compression ratio.
> >
> >I had a model Diesel in the late 1950's. It did not run on kerosene, but
> >ether, with castor oil as a lubricant. They were a true Diesel, as they
> >did not have a glow plug or any other external source of ignition.
> >
> >The glow plug engines used methanol/castor oil with nitromethane as a
> >kicker. I used to make some homebrew fuels for the glow plug engines
> >with methanol/castor oil. It worked but needed the nitromethane to make
> >the engines run well.
>
> A funny story...while in the Air Force (way back) I had a little
> Arden (forget the size now). It was mounted on a small
> free-flight model. One of the guys who wasn't familiar with them
> was looking it over, he commented that "that tiny engine doesn't
> look big enough to power that model", so I bet him $20 that if I
> started it he wouldn't stick his finger into the prop...I'm sure
> that he pictured the engine 'put-putting' along and the prop sort
> of ticking over...long story short, I started it...he paid
> instantly...those things engendered lots of respect. I wonder how
> much they actually did put out?
> --

I had one of those Ardens, that I think was an .049? Anyway, some company
made a Diesel "conversion" head for it that ran on ether and castor oil mix.
(you mixed your own to taste). Anyhow, since it didn't use a true Diesel's
injection system, some nick-named it a "compression-ignition" class. The
Arden's conversion head's compression ratio was adjusted by varying the
number of foil thin layers in the head gasket. Too many and it wouldn't
fire, too few and it would run like a banshee but blow no wind! The darn
thing reversed rotation every time it fired. Usually it quit then when it
knocked the prop nut loose when firing the wrong direction. I'll bet there
are lots of you know exactly what I'm talking about.
And then there was the GHQ which never ran. But that is getting a bit
tooooooo far from topic.
Old Chief Lynn

[Gord Beaman]

"Lynn Coffelt" > wrote:
snip
>
>I had one of those Ardens, that I think was an .049? Anyway, some company
>made a Diesel "conversion" head for it that ran on ether and castor oil mix.
>(you mixed your own to taste). Anyhow, since it didn't use a true Diesel's
>injection system, some nick-named it a "compression-ignition" class. The
>Arden's conversion head's compression ratio was adjusted by varying the
>number of foil thin layers in the head gasket. Too many and it wouldn't
>fire, too few and it would run like a banshee but blow no wind! The darn
>thing reversed rotation every time it fired. Usually it quit then when it
>knocked the prop nut loose when firing the wrong direction. I'll bet there
>are lots of you know exactly what I'm talking about.
> And then there was the GHQ which never ran. But that is getting a bit
>tooooooo far from topic.
>Old Chief Lynn
>
Yes...049 sounds familiar...I remember the name Arden because it
was so easy to start...much easier than several others that I
had. I even had one that used spark ignition...very
temperamental. My right index finger still smarts from getting
whacked during starts when I got overconfident and disrespectful
of that little prop...fun though...
--


-Gord.

"I'm trying to get as old as I can,
and it must be working 'cause I'm
the oldest now that I've ever been"

[Lynn Coffelt]

> Yes...049 sounds familiar...I remember the name Arden because it
> was so easy to start...much easier than several others that I
> had. I even had one that used spark ignition...very
> temperamental. My right index finger still smarts from getting
> whacked during starts when I got overconfident and disrespectful
> of that little prop...fun though...

The GHQ came with a cast aluminum 14" (fairly low pitch) prop. Now that
thing left a couple of achey joints on that finger that haven't improved
much in the last 60 years. I can feel your pain, Gord!
Old Chief Lynn

>
>
> -Gord.
>
> "I'm trying to get as old as I can,
> and it must be working 'cause I'm
> the oldest now that I've ever been"