Gasahol Update

[RST Engineering]

Taken directly from the EAA website www.eaa.org and then to the autogas STC
page:


In the opinion of EAA, and in the interest of most conservative operations,
the following observations are offered:

a.. If alcohol content is less than 1%, fuel will probably have no effect
on aircraft.

b.. If fuel contains up to 5% alcohol, caution must be exercised. Do not
permit it to remain in tanks or fuel system more than 24 hours, then drain
and refill with alcohol-free fuel, ensuring that no alcohol concentration
remains in fuel lines or sump. Vapor lock may be a problem. DO NOT FLY.

c.. If alcohol content is more than 5%, DO NOT FLY. Drain fuel system,
flush all parts, replace with clean alcohol-free fuel and run up engine long
enough to exchange fuel in carburetor bowl.

So now the question is posed ... if I take some California gasahol (5.3%)
and dilute it down with 100LL to a 5% concentration, it seems that if I use
it within 24 hours, I can continue to use our gasahol. My calculation says
that 50 gallons of gasahol diluted with 5 gallons of LL would meet the 5%
limitation. Hell, I wouldn't object to running 50-50 if it means I can cut
the lead content in half.

Yet in another place on the website, it says that the gasoline can have NO
alcohol. I'm so confused. {;-)

E'splain to me also why you folks in Wisconsin, Iowa, and the rest of the
midwest are getting your 100LL for $2.50 a gallon or so while I'm paying
$3.50 with the refinery just across the central valley.



Jim

[BTIZ]

100LL is priced at $2.93, self serve country airport, county run.. so it has
all the county "tax profits" added in.. we have seen as high as $3.65 this
spring.

BT

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> Taken directly from the EAA website www.eaa.org and then to the autogas
> STC page:
>
>
> In the opinion of EAA, and in the interest of most conservative
> operations, the following observations are offered:
>
> a.. If alcohol content is less than 1%, fuel will probably have no effect
> on aircraft.
>
> b.. If fuel contains up to 5% alcohol, caution must be exercised. Do not
> permit it to remain in tanks or fuel system more than 24 hours, then drain
> and refill with alcohol-free fuel, ensuring that no alcohol concentration
> remains in fuel lines or sump. Vapor lock may be a problem. DO NOT FLY.
>
> c.. If alcohol content is more than 5%, DO NOT FLY. Drain fuel system,
> flush all parts, replace with clean alcohol-free fuel and run up engine
> long enough to exchange fuel in carburetor bowl.
>
> So now the question is posed ... if I take some California gasahol (5.3%)
> and dilute it down with 100LL to a 5% concentration, it seems that if I
> use it within 24 hours, I can continue to use our gasahol. My calculation
> says that 50 gallons of gasahol diluted with 5 gallons of LL would meet
> the 5% limitation. Hell, I wouldn't object to running 50-50 if it means I
> can cut the lead content in half.
>
> Yet in another place on the website, it says that the gasoline can have NO
> alcohol. I'm so confused. {;-)
>
> E'splain to me also why you folks in Wisconsin, Iowa, and the rest of the
> midwest are getting your 100LL for $2.50 a gallon or so while I'm paying
> $3.50 with the refinery just across the central valley.
>
>
>
> Jim
>
>

[Matt Whiting]

RST Engineering wrote:

> E'splain to me also why you folks in Wisconsin, Iowa, and the rest of the
> midwest are getting your 100LL for $2.50 a gallon or so while I'm paying
> $3.50 with the refinery just across the central valley.

Probably different tax levies account for a substantial part of the
difference. I think CA is among the highest taxing states in the union.
Call Ahnold and tell him to lower your taxes.


Matt

[Jay Honeck]

> E'splain to me also why you folks in Wisconsin, Iowa, and the rest of the
> midwest are getting your 100LL for $2.50 a gallon or so while I'm paying
> $3.50 with the refinery just across the central valley.

Sorry, Jim. I filled "The Mighty Grape" today for $1.93 per gallon.

Avgas is still $3.35.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns]

> E'splain to me also why you folks in Wisconsin, Iowa, and the rest of the
> midwest are getting your 100LL for $2.50 a gallon or so while I'm paying
> $3.50 with the refinery just across the central valley.

Base price (pre-tax) wholesale, 100LL is the same here as mogas. I know
this because I buy transports of mogas for our farm and my friend in the
crop dusting business we use buys transports of 100LL. Both of us buy
pre-taxes. Current mogas at the stations around here is $2.14, KSTE 100LL
is $2.98, the difference is FBO markups, extra transportation costs for the
smaller quantities of avgas delivered, and the shopping power of your FBO.

We're in the central part of the state, Koch has a pipeline coming down to
us from Minneapolis. The eastern part of the state get's fuel from Green
Bay and a pipeline coming up from Chicago. Drive 20 miles east of here and
you get eastern fuel which is 10 cents cheaper than the fuel Koch is pumping
to us from Minneapolis. Koch just likes to screw us, or they like our
money, or we're too stupid to fill up east of here. Probably a little of
both.

I can actually get a transport from Green Bay (95 miles) $0.04 cents per
gallon cheaper than I can from the Koch terminal which is just 20 miles
away, that's $400 that stays in my pocket.

Wisconsin mogas tax is 31.1 cents per gallon, nearly the highest state tax
in the nation. I think the Federal tax is 14.3 cents. The Wisconsin state
aviation fuel tax is only $0.06 (I think CA's is $0.18) and Federal is
$0.194, so Wisconsin's total aviation fuel taxes, lacking any local taxes,
are actually less than our mogas taxes. There have been times lately that
you can fill up at a local self serve FBO cheaper than you can at the gas
station across the street.

$1.47 actual wholesale price per NY NYMEX
+0.165 cents shipping/handling NY to WIS
+0.194 Uncle Sam
+0.06 Wisconsin tax
+0.00 local fuel tax
=$1.889 wholesale delivered after tax FBO price
+$1.091 FBO markup
=$2.98 current FBO price KSTE

Take out all but $0.05 per gallon shipping cause the refinery is right
across the valley, add another $0.12 state tax, and it leaves your FBO
about $1.606 per gallon to pay local taxes/fees and themselves.

Jim

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 30 May 2005 12:15:02 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

>E'splain to me also why you folks in Wisconsin, Iowa, and the rest of the
>midwest are getting your 100LL for $2.50 a gallon or so while I'm paying
>$3.50 with the refinery just across the central valley.

CA gas taxes?

(It's not $2.50 locally, though it's under $3.00, while mogas is
over.)


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Denny]

Jim,
Those recommendations are based on the alcohol being wood alcohol -
METHANOL (highly corrosive to brass, rubber, cork, etc.)... Where the
alky is ETHANOL (corn whiskey) you can be more relaxed about alky
remaining in the tank even at the 5% level... So, while your
assumption that if you dilute sufficiently you can leave it is right
on, you will have a bigger margin of safety if you can find ethanol
based gasahol...

denny - in Michigan where we can get alky free mogas...

[Sport Pilot]

Denny wrote:
> Jim,
> Those recommendations are based on the alcohol being wood alcohol -
> METHANOL (highly corrosive to brass, rubber, cork, etc.)... Where the
> alky is ETHANOL (corn whiskey) you can be more relaxed about alky
> remaining in the tank even at the 5% level... So, while your
> assumption that if you dilute sufficiently you can leave it is right
> on, you will have a bigger margin of safety if you can find ethanol
> based gasahol...
>
> denny - in Michigan where we can get alky free mogas...

First off, methanol is not corrosive to brass. Second I do not think
there is much differance between ethanol and methanol as for as
corrosive effects on synthetic rubber. Third, the alcohol in mogas is
a lot less corrosive to rubber than the toulene in 100LL. Any plastic
floats left out there?

[Doug]

There is a whole new line of excellent plastic floats called Aerocets.
Although I don't know how that is relevant.

One thing about mogas, it is best to get the mogas that airports have
..They typically get car gas that does not have the car gas additives.
No one really knows what these car gas additives will do to an aircraft
engine. Also, keep in mind car gas is NO LEAD. Lead has lubrication and
cushioning properties. I know people complain about the lead deposits
on their spark plugs, but lead has beneficial side effects also. Then
there is octane. The gas you use needs to have enough octane so your
engine doesn't knock. This depends on your engines compression ratio
and altitude you fly at. Lastly, avgas has stabilizers so it doesn't
gell when it sits for long periods of time, mogas doesn't.

[Sport Pilot]

Doug wrote:
> There is a whole new line of excellent plastic floats called Aerocets.
> Although I don't know how that is relevant.

Because the toulene in 100LL melted the plastic floats in many carbs.
Big STC to replace them about two decades ago.

>
> One thing about mogas, it is best to get the mogas that airports have
> .They typically get car gas that does not have the car gas additives.

Total BS, most FBO's that sell mo gas are either small mom and pop
operations that do not have a very large tank to ask the local
distributer to eliminate the aditive package, or they only offer it
because they are also using it for their ground equipment. Besides the
additives are only detergents which would only help to get rid of
carbon and lead deposits. The alcohol is added at the refienery not
the distributer.

> No one really knows what these car gas additives will do to an aircraft
> engine. Also, keep in mind car gas is NO LEAD. Lead has lubrication and
> cushioning properties. BS! A myth created by the gas companies to discorage the government from eliminating lead, and an excuse for car companies to explain their valve failures. Aircraft engines are tested for compatibility before issuing the STC. My old Cessna had less problems on mogas than 100LL. No stuck valves on mogas.

[Doug]

Well it is not TOTAL BS. I know for a fact that one mogas seller in
Colorado (where I get mine), gets his mogas the way I described. But
you bring up a good point. How does one tell just what you are getting
when you put in mogas or avgas?

[George Patterson]

Denny wrote:
> Jim,
> Those recommendations are based on the alcohol being wood alcohol -

No. The EAA states this "Ethanol is often confused with methanol. These two
alcohols have distinctly different characteristics; however, all STC's prohibit
the use of gasoline containing alcohol - either methanol or ethanol." Those
recommendations occur later on that page and apply to either ethanol or methanol.

http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/oxygenated.html

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Jay Honeck]

> But
> you bring up a good point. How does one tell just what you are getting
> when you put in mogas or avgas?

If there are no visible contaminants, there is no water evident, and it
smells like gasoline, I run with it -- and unless you have some sort of
a chemical laboratory in your hangar, there's not much else you can do.

Like so many other things in this world, it's really not worth the
effort to worry about.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Corky Scott]

On 31 May 2005 09:09:03 -0700, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:

>If there are no visible contaminants, there is no water evident, and it
>smells like gasoline, I run with it -- and unless you have some sort of
>a chemical laboratory in your hangar, there's not much else you can do.
>
>Like so many other things in this world, it's really not worth the
>effort to worry about.

Thought there was some kind of easy test you could do by adding water
to a sample of your fuel.

Corky Scott

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>But
>>you bring up a good point. How does one tell just what you are getting
>>when you put in mogas or avgas?
>
>
> If there are no visible contaminants, there is no water evident, and it
> smells like gasoline, I run with it -- and unless you have some sort of
> a chemical laboratory in your hangar, there's not much else you can do.
>
> Like so many other things in this world, it's really not worth the
> effort to worry about.

Me too. If it smells like it might burn I'll use it.

[Sport Pilot]

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
> Corky Scott > wrote:
>
> >Thought there was some kind of easy test you could do by adding water
> >to a sample of your fuel.
>
> There is. Water and gas don't mix. Water and alcohol do.
>
> Run to trash, find empty clear bottle (typically a water
> bottle), scratch mark at about 10% point near bottom, fill
> with water to that point, add gas, shake, let settle, see if
> the water level is higher. If it is, alcohol has moved from
> the gas to the water.
>
> Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will return to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.
>
> (first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)

You got that backward, if the alcohol is present the water level will
drop, not rise.

[Ron Natalie]

Sport Pilot wrote:

> You got that backward, if the alcohol is present the water level will
> drop, not rise.
>
Nope, it will rise. The alchohol which had been mixed with the gas
will now disolve in the water, the water level will rise.

[George Patterson]

Sport Pilot wrote:
>
> You got that backward, if the alcohol is present the water level will
> drop, not rise.

No, he got it exactly right. The alcohol will come out of solution with the
gasoline and mix with the water. The effect is that it appears that the water
level rises.

http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/knopp_alcohol.html

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[mike regish]

There is. You can get a graduated tube from eaa or make one yourself. You
add water to the lower line, gas to the upper line and shake for 30 seconds.
After the water settles down to the bottom, you check to see if the line is
in the same place. If it's higher, you have alcohol. The EAA tube will tell
you the precentage.

mike regish

"Corky Scott" > wrote in message >
> Thought there was some kind of easy test you could do by adding water
> to a sample of your fuel.
>
> Corky Scott

[mike regish]

Nope. He got it right. At least according to my test tube.

mike regish

"Sport Pilot" > wrote in message >
> You got that backward, if the alcohol is present the water level will
> drop, not rise.
>

[Dave Stadt]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >>But
> >>you bring up a good point. How does one tell just what you are getting
> >>when you put in mogas or avgas?
> >
> >
> > If there are no visible contaminants, there is no water evident, and it
> > smells like gasoline, I run with it -- and unless you have some sort of
> > a chemical laboratory in your hangar, there's not much else you can do.
> >
> > Like so many other things in this world, it's really not worth the
> > effort to worry about.
>
> Me too. If it smells like it might burn I'll use it.

And that's more than enough of a scientific test for the older low
compression engines They were designed for fuel without lead and octanes in
the mid to low 70s.

[Jon Woellhaf]

Todd Pattist wrote, "... find empty clear bottle (typically a water bottle),
scratch mark at about 10% point near bottom, fill with water to that point,
add gas, shake, let settle, see if the water level is higher. If it is,
alcohol has moved from the gas to the water."


I have a small fuel sampler named "Fuel-Check by Daansen." It is designed to
measure the amount of alcohol -- from 0 to 30% -- dissolved in a fuel
sample. The sampler is first filled with water up to the "water" line, which
is about an inch up from the bottom. The water line is also the 0% alcohol
line. The sampler is then filled with fuel to the "gas" line, which is about
3 1/2 inches up from the bottom. The percent of alcohol is then read on the
"% alcohol" scale which runs from 0 at the bottom to 30% about 3/4 inch up
from the 0 line. Thus it appears that if there is alcohol in the fuel it
will dissolve in the water and raise the water/alcohol level.

[Stefan]

George Patterson wrote:

> No, he got it exactly right. The alcohol will come out of solution with
> the gasoline and mix with the water. The effect is that it appears that
> the water level rises.

The explanation is pretty simple. In un-scientific words:

- Water and gas don't mix.
- Alcohol mixes with both water and gas.
- Given the choice, alcohol prefers water over gas.

Stefan

[Dylan Smith]

In article . com>, Doug wrote:
> engine. Also, keep in mind car gas is NO LEAD. Lead has lubrication and
> cushioning properties. I know people complain about the lead deposits
> on their spark plugs...

Oh, on our C-85 engine, we never got fouled plugs from 100LL, just stuck
valves, which is a bit more worrying at 250' AGL and no remaining
runway!


--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Sport Pilot]

Hmm,
But water will mix into a mixture of gas and alcohol. Maybe that
only works with less water or it takes some agitation. This is how gas
deicer works. The alcohol melts the ice and allows the water to
desolve into the gas alcohol mixture.

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning Sport Pilot > wrote:
> Hmm,
> But water will mix into a mixture of gas and alcohol. Maybe that
> only works with less water or it takes some agitation. This is how gas
> deicer works. The alcohol melts the ice and allows the water to
> desolve into the gas alcohol mixture.

But what?

Water is only very slightly soluable in gasoline; basically not at all.

Water is totally soluable in alcohol.

Alcohol is moderately soluable in gasoline, that is, up to a limit.

Where is the confusion?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Sport Pilot]

wrote:
> In rec.aviation.owning Sport Pilot > wrote:
> > Hmm,
> > But water will mix into a mixture of gas and alcohol. Maybe that
> > only works with less water or it takes some agitation. This is how gas
> > deicer works. The alcohol melts the ice and allows the water to
> > desolve into the gas alcohol mixture.
>
> But what?
>
> Water is only very slightly soluable in gasoline; basically not at all.
>
> Water is totally soluable in alcohol.
>
> Alcohol is moderately soluable in gasoline, that is, up to a limit.
>
> Where is the confusion?
>
> --
> Jim Pennino
>
> Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Alcohol is completly soluable in gasoline, in fact adding a small
amount of gasoline to model airplane fuel is sometimes done to improve
starting and increase engine heat during the winter. The confusion is
that you can also mix water gas and alcohol and have the three
completely disolve. So why didn't the water disolve into the gas and
alcohol mixture?

Has anybody verfied that this method works all the time? I have a
hunch the rusults can vary depending on vibration and temperature.

[Sport Pilot]

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
> "Sport Pilot" > wrote:
>
> >Alcohol is completly soluable in gasoline, in fact adding a small
> >amount of gasoline to model airplane fuel is sometimes done to improve
> >starting and increase engine heat during the winter. The confusion is
> >that you can also mix water gas and alcohol and have the three
> >completely disolve. So why didn't the water disolve into the gas and
> >alcohol mixture?
>
> A typical gasoline-alcohol automotive fuel blend can
> dissolve water up to only about 0.6 or 0.7% at 70=B0F. Beyond
> this the water forms a separate layer and the alcohol
> preferably is dissolved in that layer.
>
> >Has anybody verfied that this method works all the time? I have a
> >hunch the rusults can vary depending on vibration and temperature.
>
> If the maximum 0.6 or 0.7% water/gas/ethanol blend at 70=B0F
> is cooled, both the water and some of the ethanol become
> insoluble in the gas. The result is two layers of liquid -
> an upper ethanol-deficient gasoline layer and a lower
> ethanol-rich (about 75% ethanol) water layer. If more water
> is added, the lower layer of water increases in volume and
> continues to preferentially dissolve the ethanol.
>
> The test method uses 10% water, far more than the maximum
> that can be dissolved in the gas/ethanol blend, so it always
> forms two layers and sucks the alcohol out of the gas.
>
>
> Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will retu=
rn to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.
>
> (first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)

I have done some research also, alcohol is NOT completly soluble in
gasoline, it varies with temperature and gasoline composition. It is
especially not soluble in cold weather. The reason the gas disolves in
model airplane fuel is that the castor oil is soluble in both methanol
and gasoline.

[RST Engineering]

But the basic fundamental questions remains despite the discussion of how
much water will dissolve the alcohol on the head of a pin...

The EAA STC says that there can be NO alcohol in the gasoline (and that is
theoretically impossible -- PPB will always be there)

but

The EAA web page gives instructions on gasahol up to 5% alcohol and how to
safely burn it.


Doesn't anybody get the contradiction and what it might mean to the real
world -- especially in California where the state mandates 5.x% in the
gasoline, no more and no less?

Jim

[[email protected]]

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
> "Sport Pilot" > wrote:
>
>
>>Alcohol is completly soluable in gasoline, in fact adding a small
>>amount of gasoline to model airplane fuel is sometimes done to improve
>>starting and increase engine heat during the winter. The confusion is
>>that you can also mix water gas and alcohol and have the three
>>completely disolve. So why didn't the water disolve into the gas and
>>alcohol mixture?
>
>
> A typical gasoline-alcohol automotive fuel blend can
> dissolve water up to only about 0.6 or 0.7% at 70°F. Beyond
> this the water forms a separate layer and the alcohol
> preferably is dissolved in that layer.
>
>
>>Has anybody verfied that this method works all the time? I have a
>>hunch the rusults can vary depending on vibration and temperature.
>
>
> If the maximum 0.6 or 0.7% water/gas/ethanol blend at 70°F
> is cooled, both the water and some of the ethanol become
> insoluble in the gas. The result is two layers of liquid -
> an upper ethanol-deficient gasoline layer and a lower
> ethanol-rich (about 75% ethanol) water layer. If more water
> is added, the lower layer of water increases in volume and
> continues to preferentially dissolve the ethanol.
>
> The test method uses 10% water, far more than the maximum
> that can be dissolved in the gas/ethanol blend, so it always
> forms two layers and sucks the alcohol out of the gas.
>
>
> Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will return to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.
>
> (first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)


Todd,

So what your saying is that if you have ethanol rich gasoline, just add
water and shake and what your left with is gasoline without ethanol.

Sounds like a good way to purify gasoline.

Dave

[George Patterson]

RST Engineering wrote:
>
> The EAA web page gives instructions on gasahol up to 5% alcohol and how to
> safely burn it.

Which page? The EAA page I read states "DO NOT FLY" (caps in original) with over
1% alky. In fact, you posted a copy of that page.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Morgans]

> wrote
>
> So what your saying is that if you have ethanol rich gasoline, just add
> water and shake and what your left with is gasoline without ethanol.
>
> Sounds like a good way to purify gasoline.

Except for the gas that now contains .7% water. I know, burn the gas, and
it will leave the water!

No? Oh well, it was an idea. Not a very good one, but an idea,
nevertheless. ;-)
--
Jim in NC

[David Lesher]

"Sport Pilot" > writes:

>> One thing about mogas, it is best to get the mogas that airports have
>> .They typically get car gas that does not have the car gas additives.

>Total BS, most FBO's that sell mo gas are either small mom and pop
>operations that do not have a very large tank to ask the local
>distributer to eliminate the aditive package, or they only offer it
>because they are also using it for their ground equipment. Besides the
>additives are only detergents which would only help to get rid of
>carbon and lead deposits. The alcohol is added at the refienery not
>the distributer.


I wonder about that... I worked in the fuel business eons ago. The
additives WERE injected at the marketing terminal, i.e. when/where
the trucks were loaded. One reason was that same gas was often sold
by another company also on the same pipeline; and the additives were
part of the 'brand differentiation' the marketing driods love...




--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[David Lesher]

writes:




>So what your saying is that if you have ethanol rich gasoline, just add
>water and shake and what your left with is gasoline without ethanol.

>Sounds like a good way to purify gasoline.


Does anyone else recall reading Ice Station Zebra, and how to get
the sugar out of gasoline...? [No, watching Ernest Borgnine in the
movie version won't cut it...]

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning David Lesher > wrote:
> writes:




> >So what your saying is that if you have ethanol rich gasoline, just add
> >water and shake and what your left with is gasoline without ethanol.

> >Sounds like a good way to purify gasoline.


> Does anyone else recall reading Ice Station Zebra, and how to get
> the sugar out of gasoline...? [No, watching Ernest Borgnine in the
> movie version won't cut it...]

> --
> A host is a host from coast to
> & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
> Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
> is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Urban legend; sugar doesn't dissolve in gasoline.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/grace/sugar.asp

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[George Patterson]

David Lesher wrote:
>
> Does anyone else recall reading Ice Station Zebra, and how to get
> the sugar out of gasoline...? [No, watching Ernest Borgnine in the
> movie version won't cut it...]

Yep -- loved MacLean's books.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "DL" == David Lesher > writes:
DL> A host is a host from coast to
DL> & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
DL> Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
DL> is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Gee, this was funny years ago with the old style addresses, but now???

[Skywise]

David Lesher > wrote in news:d7lrj4$ba2$1
@reader1.panix.com:

> "Sport Pilot" > writes:
>
>>> One thing about mogas, it is best to get the mogas that airports have
>>> .They typically get car gas that does not have the car gas additives.
>
>>Total BS, most FBO's that sell mo gas are either small mom and pop
>>operations that do not have a very large tank to ask the local
>>distributer to eliminate the aditive package, or they only offer it
>>because they are also using it for their ground equipment. Besides the
>>additives are only detergents which would only help to get rid of
>>carbon and lead deposits. The alcohol is added at the refienery not
>>the distributer.
>
>
> I wonder about that... I worked in the fuel business eons ago. The
> additives WERE injected at the marketing terminal, i.e. when/where
> the trucks were loaded. One reason was that same gas was often sold
> by another company also on the same pipeline; and the additives were
> part of the 'brand differentiation' the marketing driods love...

This FAQ is geared towards automotive gasoline but it was quite
an eye opener when I got done reading it.

http://extract.cr.usgs.gov/Extractor_Output/40063288.zip

It explains many of the reasons why gas prices vary from place
to place in seeming illogical fashion. Once you know the reasons
why, it's not so confusing. Although that doesn't help the fact
that some are still having to give their first born to gas up.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Home of the Seismic FAQ
http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Stefan]

wrote:

> So what your saying is that if you have ethanol rich gasoline, just add
> water and shake and what your left with is gasoline without ethanol.
>
> Sounds like a good way to purify gasoline.

Except that the alcohol is there for a reason.

Stefan

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning Morgans > wrote:
: Except for the gas that now contains .7% water. I know, burn the gas, and
: it will leave the water!

.... and probably lower octane than it is rated at. One of the benefits of
adding alcohol to gasoline (for the refinery) is that it typically raises the octane
rating a few points. 100% ethanol has an octane rating of 100 or so. They can blend
crappier mixes of gasoline with ethanol to make the 87 A.K.I rating.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning Skywise > wrote:
: This FAQ is geared towards automotive gasoline but it was quite
: an eye opener when I got done reading it.

: http://extract.cr.usgs.gov/Extractor_Output/40063288.zip

Broken link. Got another?

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Sport Pilot]

David Lesher wrote:
> "Sport Pilot" > writes:
>
> >> One thing about mogas, it is best to get the mogas that airports have
> >> .They typically get car gas that does not have the car gas additives.
>
> >Total BS, most FBO's that sell mo gas are either small mom and pop
> >operations that do not have a very large tank to ask the local
> >distributer to eliminate the aditive package, or they only offer it
> >because they are also using it for their ground equipment. Besides the
> >additives are only detergents which would only help to get rid of
> >carbon and lead deposits. The alcohol is added at the refienery not
> >the distributer.
>
>
> I wonder about that... I worked in the fuel business eons ago. The
> additives WERE injected at the marketing terminal, i.e. when/where
> the trucks were loaded. One reason was that same gas was often sold
> by another company also on the same pipeline; and the additives were
> part of the 'brand differentiation' the marketing driods love...
>
>
>
>
> --
> A host is a host from coast to
> & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
> Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
> is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Yes,
But you won't get a distributor to eliminated the additive for a 6000
gallon truck to fill a one thousand gallon tank. That seems the
typical size for most mogas sold at an airport. But eliminating the
additive package won't eliminate the alcohol.

[Jay Honeck]

> Thought there was some kind of easy test you could do by adding water
> to a sample of your fuel.

Well, Corky, as you can see by the debate raging in this thread, there
really is no "easy" test to check for alcohol.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[RST Engineering]

Read it again, George. Here you go:


a.. If fuel contains up to 5% alcohol, caution must be exercised. Do not
permit it to remain in tanks or fuel system more than 24 hours, then drain
and refill with alcohol-free fuel, ensuring that no alcohol concentration
remains in fuel lines or sump. Vapor lock may be a problem. DO NOT FLY.

a.. If alcohol content is more than 5%, DO NOT FLY. Drain fuel system, flush
all parts, replace with clean alcohol-free fuel and run up engine long
enough to exchange fuel in carburetor bowl. >


a.. What you say is true...as far as it goes. What the first paragraph
IMPLIES is that there IS a safe way to fly with alcohol between 1 and 5%.
In fact, they even give guidelines for it (use caution, 24 hours to use it,
drain the system afterwards, etc.). If you don't want to do this, then DO
NOT FLY.

a.. Or am I reading it wrong?

Jim

a..

a.. > Which page? The EAA page I read states "DO NOT FLY" (caps in original)
with over
> 1% alky. In fact, you posted a copy of that page.

[George Patterson]

RST Engineering wrote:
>
> a.. Or am I reading it wrong?

In my opinion, you are. I read that to mean that you don't fly the plane with
more than 1% alcohol in the gas.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning Jay Honeck > wrote:
: > Thought there was some kind of easy test you could do by adding water
: > to a sample of your fuel.

: Well, Corky, as you can see by the debate raging in this thread, there
: really is no "easy" test to check for alcohol.

I haven't been following too closely (SNR pretty low, actually), but the
debate isn't about whether it's easy to detect. Rather, it's about detecting
*accurately* the concentration, type, and whether or not there's and easy way to
remove it.

The test-tube check *will* show the presence of alcohol. AIUI, that's enough
to nix using it in certified aircraft under an STC. Removing it could be done, but
then the formulation of the fuel could/will be off. It may not be suitable for the
engine's requirement (e.g. octane) even if it's removed.

Also, some places add it further down the chain than others. Some are done at
the refinerery, some early at the depot, and some splashed in the truck.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Well, Corky, as you can see by the debate raging in this thread, there
> really is no "easy" test to check for alcohol.

I don't think anyone's debating that there's an easy way to test for alcohol.
There seems to have been some debate over exactly how the test works, but that's
easily settled.

http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/knopp_alcohol.html

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Skywise]

wrote in news:d7mr2u$aq3$2
@solaris.cc.vt.edu:

> In rec.aviation.owning Skywise > wrote:
>: This FAQ is geared towards automotive gasoline but it was quite
>: an eye opener when I got done reading it.
>
>: http://extract.cr.usgs.gov/Extractor_Output/40063288.zip
>
> Broken link. Got another?
>

Crap!!! Sometimes Cut & Paste fouls up. That link was for some
USGS photo imagery. It's dead because they do dynamic file
generation for each download.

This is the correct link:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Home of the Seismic FAQ
http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Morgans]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message

> a.. What you say is true...as far as it goes. What the first paragraph
> IMPLIES is that there IS a safe way to fly with alcohol between 1 and 5%.
> In fact, they even give guidelines for it (use caution, 24 hours to use
it,
> drain the system afterwards, etc.). If you don't want to do this, then DO
> NOT FLY.
>
> a.. Or am I reading it wrong?\

That is about as poorly worded as anything I haave ever seen. My take on it
is that you should not fly with up to 5%, but you don't have to do something
to the fuel system for up to 24 hours. If you have more than 5%, you have
to act immediately, and take extreme actions in protecting your fuel system,
or your plane is screwed.

But in the long run, the only one who knows for sure is the person that
wrote that piece of work.
--
Jim in NC

[Casey Wilson]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...

>>> big snip <<<

> to the fuel system for up to 24 hours. If you have more than 5%, you have
> to act immediately, and take extreme actions in protecting your fuel
> system,
> or your plane is screwed.

I'm missing something in this discussion. What does gasahol do to the
fuel system that is destructive? For that matter, what damage does it do to
the engine?

[nrp]

What does gasahol do to the
> fuel system that is destructive? For that matter, what damage does it do to
> the engine?

1) You will only get 95% of the engine's output power compared to pure
gasoline,
2) Your fuel system elastomeric seals, diaphrams, floats etc are not
compatible with any substantial alcohol content,
3) The vapor pressure of the alcohol-laced fuel is higher,
4) The long term storage properties are horrible.

Did I miss any?

[George Patterson]

nrp wrote:
>
> 1) You will only get 95% of the engine's output power compared to pure
> gasoline,
> 2) Your fuel system elastomeric seals, diaphrams, floats etc are not
> compatible with any substantial alcohol content,
> 3) The vapor pressure of the alcohol-laced fuel is higher,
> 4) The long term storage properties are horrible.
>
> Did I miss any?
>

Something called "phase separation." At altitude, the gasoline and alcohol do
not remain mixed. To quote the EAA page, "Phase separation is the last reason,
which happens when the fuel is cooled as a result of the aircraft’s climbing to
higher altitude. When the alcohol separates from the gasoline, it may carry
water that has been held in solution and that cannot be handled by the sediment
bowl."

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Casey Wilson]

"nrp" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> What does gasahol do to the
>> fuel system that is destructive? For that matter, what damage does it do
>> to
>> the engine?
>
> 1) You will only get 95% of the engine's output power compared to pure
> gasoline,
> 2) Your fuel system elastomeric seals, diaphrams, floats etc are not
> compatible with any substantial alcohol content,
> 3) The vapor pressure of the alcohol-laced fuel is higher,
> 4) The long term storage properties are horrible.
>
> Did I miss any?

Sort of..., #'s 1, 3, and 4 don't answer the questions. While #2 seems
to reply by alleging incompatibility, it doesn't state the damage. How are
those components not compatible? Do they explode?
Maybe you could direct me to a white paper that describes the problem
between elastomers and alcohol. So far, I've looked at four companies that
manufacture elastomeric seals and find nothing to uphold the claim of bad
chemical reeactions.
On the other hand, I find a couple of references dealing with problems
using elastomeric seals that have nothing to do with alcohol. Additionally,
I found more than one company (B.F. Goodrich, for one example) that
manufactures elastomeric products specifically for use with alcohol(s).

[Casey Wilson]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:AmPne.6366$zb.2080@trndny06...
>> Did I miss any?
>>
>
> Something called "phase separation." At altitude, the gasoline and alcohol
> do not remain mixed. To quote the EAA page, "Phase separation is the last
> reason, which happens when the fuel is cooled as a result of the aircraft’s
> climbing to higher altitude. When the alcohol separates from the gasoline,
> it may carry water that has been held in solution and that cannot be
> handled by the sediment bowl."
>
> George Patterson

With respect George, I totally agree with your statement but my
question was regarding what damage is caused by the alcohol, not its effect
on performance. I'd like to read the EAA reference, please give me the URL.

[George Patterson]

Casey Wilson wrote:
>
> I'd like to read the EAA reference, please give me the URL.

Basic info is here http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/oxygenated.html
This - http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/knopp_alcohol.html is specific to
problems caused by alcohol.
This is the index to the EAA autofuel program information.
http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/index.html

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[George Patterson]

Casey Wilson wrote:
>
> Sort of..., #'s 1, 3, and 4 don't answer the questions. While #2 seems
> to reply by alleging incompatibility, it doesn't state the damage. How are
> those components not compatible? Do they explode?

Problems vary depending on the composition of the items. Generally seals,
gaskets, and diaphrams *may* swell and/or soften when exposed to alcohol. This
caused problems with some automobiles when gasohol was introduced in the
mid-70s. I do not reliably remember what substances were most affected, but
manufacturers reacted by changing the composition of replacement items. Owners
reacted by refusing to buy gasohol. Nothing quite like having a diaphram type
fuel pump die or start pumping gas into the crankcase when you're on the road.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[RST Engineering]

> What does gasahol do to the
>> fuel system that is destructive?

Nobody has hard data. All fuel system tests have been with pure alcohol in
a lab beaker. Sort of like feeding rats 100% saccharin and then noting an
early rat demise.


For that matter, what damage does it do to
>> the engine?

None. As a matter of fact, it cleans the hell out of the upper end.


>
> 1) You will only get 95% of the engine's output power compared to pure
> gasoline,

Yes, at 100% ethanol. What is the output power degradation at 5% ethanol
concentration? 0.05% or something like that.


> 2) Your fuel system elastomeric seals, diaphrams, floats etc are not
> compatible with any substantial alcohol content,

Your source for the study and verifiable results, please?



> 3) The vapor pressure of the alcohol-laced fuel is higher,

Your source for the study and verifiable results, please?



> 4) The long term storage properties are horrible.

Certainly you must be kidding. I've got a bottle of Everclear that must be
30 years old and still has the same effect as the day I opened the bottle.
Alcohol has a MUCH better storage characteristic than gasoline.



>
> Did I miss any?

Most all of them.


Jim

>

[Casey Wilson]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:LPQne.12848$zb.9296@trndny01...
> Casey Wilson wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to read the EAA reference, please give me the URL.
>
> Basic info is here http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/oxygenated.html
> This - http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/knopp_alcohol.html is specific to
> problems caused by alcohol.
> This is the index to the EAA autofuel program information.
> http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/index.html
>
> George Patterson

Thanks George, I'll do some reading.

[Corky Scott]

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 04:27:28 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

>Casey Wilson wrote:
>>
>> Sort of..., #'s 1, 3, and 4 don't answer the questions. While #2 seems
>> to reply by alleging incompatibility, it doesn't state the damage. How are
>> those components not compatible? Do they explode?
>
>Problems vary depending on the composition of the items. Generally seals,
>gaskets, and diaphrams *may* swell and/or soften when exposed to alcohol. This
>caused problems with some automobiles when gasohol was introduced in the
>mid-70s. I do not reliably remember what substances were most affected

Well I do, I was an auto mechanic with gas started being laced with
alcohol, and saw the results several times.

I'll never forget the first time we got a complaint. They guy had a
midsize Chrysler and brought it in complaining of it not running well.

We got it into the shop and popped the hood. It immediately drew a
crowd, every single mechanic was hanging over the engine compartment
with their mouth's dropped and their eyes wide open in amazement.
Every single hose connected to the fuel system, including vent hoses,
was swelled to twice or three times it's size and was sticky and gooey
to touch.

We realised that this was just the surface. Every diaphram in the
carburator, every rubber piece, would be the same way. The fuel line
from the tank had several hoses also, and they were all shot in the
same way.

And it smelled like alcohol.

It would likely take a mechanic several days to properly replace every
single component that had been affected, and at the time there were no
known compatible substitutes, although they showed up remarkably fast.

So "IF" your airplane does not have hoses compatible with alcohol, or
any component of your fuel system is not compatible with alcohol, this
is what you are facing.

Corky Scott

[Sport Pilot]

Corky Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 04:27:28 GMT, George Patterson
> > wrote:
>
> >Casey Wilson wrote:
> >>
> >> Sort of..., #'s 1, 3, and 4 don't answer the questions. While #2 seems
> >> to reply by alleging incompatibility, it doesn't state the damage. How are
> >> those components not compatible? Do they explode?
> >
> >Problems vary depending on the composition of the items. Generally seals,
> >gaskets, and diaphrams *may* swell and/or soften when exposed to alcohol. This
> >caused problems with some automobiles when gasohol was introduced in the
> >mid-70s. I do not reliably remember what substances were most affected
>
> Well I do, I was an auto mechanic with gas started being laced with
> alcohol, and saw the results several times.
>
> I'll never forget the first time we got a complaint. They guy had a
> midsize Chrysler and brought it in complaining of it not running well.
>
> We got it into the shop and popped the hood. It immediately drew a
> crowd, every single mechanic was hanging over the engine compartment
> with their mouth's dropped and their eyes wide open in amazement.
> Every single hose connected to the fuel system, including vent hoses,
> was swelled to twice or three times it's size and was sticky and gooey
> to touch.
>
> We realised that this was just the surface. Every diaphram in the
> carburator, every rubber piece, would be the same way. The fuel line
> from the tank had several hoses also, and they were all shot in the
> same way.
>
> And it smelled like alcohol.
>
> It would likely take a mechanic several days to properly replace every
> single component that had been affected, and at the time there were no
> known compatible substitutes, although they showed up remarkably fast.
>
> So "IF" your airplane does not have hoses compatible with alcohol, or
> any component of your fuel system is not compatible with alcohol, this
> is what you are facing.
>
> Corky Scott

Sounds like a problem with an additive to me. Some of the early octane
boosters were alcohol mixed with toulene and acetone. I think Wenn's
or STP or some company got a class action suit over this. BTW the
toulend in 100 LL melted the plastic floats put in a lot of planes made
for 80 avgas. You won't smell a small quantity pure ethanol or
methanol, they have very low oders, the alcohol in distilled liquors
smells because of the organic compounds from the fruit, grain, or maybe
the yeast, I cannot remember.

[George Patterson]

Corky Scott wrote:
>
> Well I do, I was an auto mechanic with gas started being laced with
> alcohol, and saw the results several times.

Oh, I saw the results. What I meant was that I do not remember what it was in
those hoses and such that was affected by exposure to alcohol.

One of my friends was a line mechanic for an Oldmobile dealer. His stories were
similar to yours. I happened to own a Ford during that period, and my only
problems involved hoses in the fuel system. Our other car was an Opel, but it
would only run on Amoco high test, so we never had an alcohol-related problem
with it.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[George Patterson]

Sport Pilot wrote:
>
> You won't smell a small quantity pure ethanol or
> methanol, they have very low oders, the alcohol in distilled liquors
> smells because of the organic compounds from the fruit, grain, or maybe
> the yeast, I cannot remember.

First off, we're not talking about a small quantity here; we're talking about
nearly 10% of the fuel. That means several gallons, at a minimum, and that's
just for one tank of gas. Secondly, the alcohol used in the 70's was ethanol
made from corn; a distilled liquor. In essence, pure grain alcohol. It stinks
(as any old fratrat can tell you).

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Sport Pilot]

On model airplanes using methanol based fuel, they use silicone fuel
tubing. With gas engines you use tygon or neoprene tubing. The
alcohol will make those tubings harden and crack withen a few weeks.
But not the swelling and turning to liquid. That has to be from a more
active solvent such as toulene or acetone.

[George Patterson]

Sport Pilot wrote:
> On model airplanes using methanol based fuel, they use silicone fuel
> tubing. With gas engines you use tygon or neoprene tubing. The
> alcohol will make those tubings harden and crack withen a few weeks.
> But not the swelling and turning to liquid. That has to be from a more
> active solvent such as toulene or acetone.

Not so. I never used any additives in my cars, and I had problems with softening
and swelling of the hoses in the fuel system of my van. Besides, the gas in
Georgia and Tennessee (where I lived at the time) was cut with ethanol, not
methanol.

This was a very definite, well-documented problem at the time, and no amount of
theory based argument is going to change that fact.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Sport Pilot]

George Patterson wrote:
> Sport Pilot wrote:
> > On model airplanes using methanol based fuel, they use silicone fuel
> > tubing. With gas engines you use tygon or neoprene tubing. The
> > alcohol will make those tubings harden and crack withen a few weeks.
> > But not the swelling and turning to liquid. That has to be from a more
> > active solvent such as toulene or acetone.
>
> Not so. I never used any additives in my cars, and I had problems with softening
> and swelling of the hoses in the fuel system of my van. Besides, the gas in
> Georgia and Tennessee (where I lived at the time) was cut with ethanol, not
> methanol.
>
> This was a very definite, well-documented problem at the time, and no amount of
> theory based argument is going to change that fact.
>
> George Patterson
> Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
> and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
> Because she smells like a new truck.

I understand that ethanol has the same effect on the hoses. In those
days a lot of the hoses were part natural rubber, or some cheaper
grade. Have you noticed that the hoses today seem to last longer then
they did before with the leaded fuels? When they took the lead out
they added toulene to the fuel, this would attack those cheaper hoses,
today the hoses are made to take the toulene and ethanol.

[nrp]

I agree it does no damage to the mechanical and valve portions of the
engine.

According to Marks Engr Handbook, the heating value of an equal mass of
10% ethanol gasahol is 96.1% of an equal mass of gasoline (I used
Hexane as an approximation to gasoline & assumed ethanol). Here in MN
the car mileage reduction is generally assumed to be about 5%. I see
that in the differences between Wisconsin gasoline vs Minnesota gasahol
in my vehicles.

Since the fuel mass flow in an aircraft carb isn't likely to change
significantly, and since the engine is a heat engine, with all other
things being equal, a power reduction is to be expected. Other items
such as compression ratio, timing, mixture proportions etc could be
varied to optimize the use of gasahol, but the heat value just isn't
there.

Who knows what the seals etc used in an aircraft are - except that
there are a lot of legal reasons that they are not being updated in
contrast to technical reasons why they should be updated. Actually a
simple aircraft engine has few seals as you know, and if the float
(let's see we're back to metal again aren't we) don't sink, and the tip
of the needle doesn't dissolve, we are back to mostly static seals in
the fuel selector etc. I don't know about fuel cell bladders, except
that given the regulatory climate, there is a good chance they have not
been updated for 50 years either.

I just had the seals go and the idle jet varnish over in my '87 Yamaha
M/C carb, and lawn mowers here routinely need carb work.

Vapor pressure is primarily determined by fuel temperature, although a
standard temperature is used for the Reid vapor pressure test. But
that standard temp has to be held very closely to make equivalent fuel
evaluations. In practical service the significance of the temperature
variation seems to never be addressed. For example, where is it
written that you can't paint your wings black? A chem prof once noted
that the vapor pressure typically doubles every 15 deg F.

I have to agree that only in a most marginal situation (probably
aggravated by the need for a fuel pump) might ethanol (b.p. = 172 deg
F) or especially methanol (b.p. = 148 deg F) put you over the edge into
trouble. My original response was hearsay.

The long term storage issue - the weed whip (manual) I just bought says
to throw away all ethanol laced gasoline after 60 days.

I agree booze keeps a lot better but that is primarily an alcohol/water
& flavor mix which does not seem to be subject to deterioration (maybe
shrinkage?) of alcohol hydroicarbon mixes.

Old sour gas is a problem here in MN. It seems to be aggravated by
higher fuel storage temperatures. My small-engine repairman neighbor
confirms this (as well as the rampant carb problems).

[Sport Pilot]

You would have more power from ethanol if you richen up the mixture.
But I doubt less than 5% ethanol is enough to matter either way.

[Montblack]

("nrp" wrote)
[snip]
> The long term storage issue - the weed whip (manual) I just bought says
> to throw away all ethanol laced gasoline after 60 days.
>
> I agree booze keeps a lot better but that is primarily an alcohol/water
> & flavor mix which does not seem to be subject to deterioration (maybe
> shrinkage?) of alcohol hydroicarbon mixes.
>
> Old sour gas is a problem here in MN. It seems to be aggravated by
> higher fuel storage temperatures. My small-engine repairman neighbor
> confirms this (as well as the rampant carb problems).


Gas going bad:
I wonder if ethanol blended gasoline in the 1950's would last just as long
as regular 1950's gasoline? Years?

Non-ethanol choices in the (50 miles x 50 miles) Twin Cities Metro area are
limited, to say the least. You really have to hunt for those few stations
that sell non-oxy gas ...and then it's usually premium!! NoDak - pumps have
options. Iowa - pumps have options. Twin Cities - no options.

<http://www.msra.com/NonOxygenatedFuel/NonOxyList08.16.04.pdf)
"These are the stations that provide non-oxygenated (ethanol-free) gasoline
in the state of Minnesota and Wisconsin. Please stop by and thank them for
their participation during cruising season, continue to patronize them with
your daily drivers and remind them that our collector cars count on them for
the non-oxygenated fuel."

Twin Cities is maybe 40 of those stations. Duluth has more stations listed
than Mpls and St Paul ...combined.

20% ethanol is heading down the pipe.


Montblack
2 lawnmower carbs rebuilt.
1988 55hp Suzuki (3 cyl) outboard motor on the family fishing boat has 3
carbs on it - yikes.

[Montblack]

("nrp" wrote)
[snip]
> The long term storage issue - the weed whip (manual) I just bought says
> to throw away all ethanol laced gasoline after 60 days.
>
> I agree booze keeps a lot better but that is primarily an alcohol/water
> & flavor mix which does not seem to be subject to deterioration (maybe
> shrinkage?) of alcohol hydroicarbon mixes.
>
> Old sour gas is a problem here in MN. It seems to be aggravated by
> higher fuel storage temperatures. My small-engine repairman neighbor
> confirms this (as well as the rampant carb problems).


Gas going bad:
I wonder if ethanol blended gasoline in the 1950's would last just as long
as regular 1950's gasoline? Years?

Non-ethanol choices in the (50 miles x 50 miles) Twin Cities Metro area are
limited, to say the least. You really have to hunt for those few stations
that sell non-oxy gas ...and then it's usually premium!! NoDak - pumps have
options. Iowa - pumps have options. Twin Cities - no options.

<http://www.msra.com/NonOxygenatedFuel/NonOxyList08.16.04.pdf)
"These are the stations that provide non-oxygenated (ethanol-free) gasoline
in the state of Minnesota and Wisconsin. Please stop by and thank them for
their participation during cruising season, continue to patronize them with
your daily drivers and remind them that our collector cars count on them for
the non-oxygenated fuel."

Twin Cities is maybe 40 of those stations. Duluth has more stations listed
than Mpls and St Paul ...combined.

20% ethanol is heading down the pipe.


Montblack
2 lawnmower carbs rebuilt.
1988 55hp Suzuki (3 cyl) outboard motor on the family fishing boat has 3
carbs on it - yikes.

[Morgans]

"Casey Wilson" <N2310D @ gmail.com> wrote

> Additionally,
> I found more than one company (B.F. Goodrich, for one example) that
> manufactures elastomeric products specifically for use with alcohol(s).

Right, but airplanes, with their "slow to change" mentality, do not use
exclusively alcohol resistant seals and hoses.
--
Jim in NC

[nrp]

Yes - I would think a richer mixture would be necessary to
theoretically get to the 96.1% power level with gasahol. That the
mixture has already been optimized for gasoline would make me expect an
even greater power reduction for gasahol. Actually, there are many
things that affect the mixture distribution more in an engine that the
improvement of a mixture shift would be pretty insignificant.

The accuracy of the mixture control and distribution in smaller and
older aircraft is pretty mediocre by any modern EFI standard.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <6E0oe.883$qE2.219@trndny09>,
George Patterson > wrote:

> Corky Scott wrote:
> >
> > Well I do, I was an auto mechanic with gas started being laced with
> > alcohol, and saw the results several times.
>
> Oh, I saw the results. What I meant was that I do not remember what it was in
> those hoses and such that was affected by exposure to alcohol.
>
> One of my friends was a line mechanic for an Oldmobile dealer. His stories
> were
> similar to yours. I happened to own a Ford during that period, and my only
> problems involved hoses in the fuel system. Our other car was an Opel, but it
> would only run on Amoco high test, so we never had an alcohol-related problem
> with it.
>
> George Patterson
> Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
> and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
> Because she smells like a new truck.


I have a book, "Aviation Fuels and their Effecton Engine Performance,"
dated 1953, by the Ethyl Corp. and supplied to the USAF (P.O.
AF-33(600)5312) and USN (Contract no. 52-202). In it they state that
hoses subjected to petroleum-based fuels will deteriorate when exposed
to paraffins or napthalene-based fuels; likewise, hoses that have been
subjected to paraffin or napthalene-based fuels will deteriorate when
exposed to petroleum-based fuels.

IOW, the hoses work well with either kind of fuel, but you will get into
trouble when you switch fuels. This phenomenon is exactly what happened
to autos when MTBE became widespread.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[David Lesher]

"RST Engineering" > writes:




>> 4) The long term storage properties are horrible.

>Certainly you must be kidding. I've got a bottle of Everclear that must be
>30 years old and still has the same effect as the day I opened the bottle.
>Alcohol has a MUCH better storage characteristic than gasoline.


That's a capped, glass, bottle... perhaps? As opposed to steel tankage,
with vents...?

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Sport Pilot]

No, if you richen up the mixture the gasahol will actually give more
horsepower and better climb, performance etc. But with more fuel
consumption. Alcohol has oxygen in the fuel. Although it has less BTU
per pound or gallon, if you richen it up to the highest RPM it will be
much richer than gasoline, and more BTU per hour.