View Full Version : Allstar SZD-54 Perkoz Info? US Dealer?
Hello, trying to get some information together on this glider for club purchase consideration, but I cannot find a US dealer for it. Am I just missing an obvious one? Does anyone have any first-hand experience with this glider--observations on how suitable it would be to replace a club Grob 103? Thank you,
Mark
waremark
May 3rd 21, 05:15 PM
On Monday, 3 May 2021 at 16:47:11 UTC+1, wrote:
> Hello, trying to get some information together on this glider for club purchase consideration, but I cannot find a US dealer for it. Am I just missing an obvious one? Does anyone have any first-hand experience with this glider--observations on how suitable it would be to replace a club Grob 103? Thank you,
>
> Mark
I think it has been quite well received by some UK clubs - basic trainer, much more suitable for spin training than the ASK21, aerobatic glider and ok cross country machine with 20m tips. Looks like a rival to the DG1001. In the UK I heard that a full kit with trailer etc and the three sets of tips cost a UK club about £125k a couple of years ago. My club has a fleet of K21's, a Duo and we use a single K13 for spin training - we couldn't justify the cost of changing the K13 for a Perkoz, and it wouldn't be quite as good or nice as the Duo for cross country.
Rob Russell
May 3rd 21, 05:40 PM
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 11:47:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Hello, trying to get some information together on this glider for club purchase consideration, but I cannot find a US dealer for it. Am I just missing an obvious one? Does anyone have any first-hand experience with this glider--observations on how suitable it would be to replace a club Grob 103? Thank you,
I think the Canadian dealer might be able to point you in the right direction: https://www.windpath.ca/index.php/contact-us
There's one at the Edmonton Soaring Club
Frank Whiteley
May 3rd 21, 09:00 PM
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 9:47:11 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> Hello, trying to get some information together on this glider for club purchase consideration, but I cannot find a US dealer for it. Am I just missing an obvious one? Does anyone have any first-hand experience with this glider--observations on how suitable it would be to replace a club Grob 103? Thank you,
>
> Mark
There is no US Type Certificate of the SZD-54 Perkoz. There is a TC for EASA and for Canada. It's been 2-3 years since there's been any discussion, but the factory was, at that time, producing all they could make for European (and maybe Canadian) consumption and they had concerns about US liability laws (whether justified or not). If anyone has any updates, please share..
Frank
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 12:40:44 PM UTC-4, Rob Russell wrote:
> On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 11:47:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Hello, trying to get some information together on this glider for club purchase consideration, but I cannot find a US dealer for it. Am I just missing an obvious one? Does anyone have any first-hand experience with this glider--observations on how suitable it would be to replace a club Grob 103? Thank you,
> I think the Canadian dealer might be able to point you in the right direction: https://www.windpath.ca/index.php/contact-us
>
> There's one at the Edmonton Soaring Club
There is a privately owned one at Toronto Soaring Club too. I don’t think Windpath has the SZD dealership anymore. Jerzy said something about SZD axing their dealer network.
Tony[_7_]
May 4th 21, 06:37 AM
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 9:58:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 12:40:44 PM UTC-4, Rob Russell wrote:
> > On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 11:47:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > Hello, trying to get some information together on this glider for club purchase consideration, but I cannot find a US dealer for it. Am I just missing an obvious one? Does anyone have any first-hand experience with this glider--observations on how suitable it would be to replace a club Grob 103? Thank you,
> > I think the Canadian dealer might be able to point you in the right direction: https://www.windpath.ca/index.php/contact-us
> >
> > There's one at the Edmonton Soaring Club
> There is a privately owned one at Toronto Soaring Club too. I don’t think Windpath has the SZD dealership anymore. Jerzy said something about SZD axing their dealer network.
No TC in the US means no carriage for compensation. Rides and instruction could not generate revenue.
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 10:37:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> No TC in the US means no carriage for compensation. Rides and instruction could not generate revenue.
No US certification would be a problem, which is unfortunate. This glider could fit into a unique, more affordable need for more than just my club, it seems.
For two place composite gliders, it seems there's basically two camps: dedicated trainers (17-18m) with low-ish performance and high-performance, cross-country machines with long wingspans unsuitable for basic training (20+m).. But, both types of performance are needed on the training continuum at different times and few cross that divide with one platform. The only other 'adaptable' two seater where a shorter span could be used for daily training, but added wingspan added for higher-performance cross country, is the DG1001. But, I am guessing the DG1001 is much more expensive than the SZD-54-2..
Seems like there's a market for such adaptable trainers in the US as the older Grob & ASK-21s retire. Don't know about your clubs, but our Grobs are kind of beat up.
Nick Hill[_3_]
May 4th 21, 05:38 PM
On 04/05/2021 16:34, wrote:
> On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 10:37:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> For two place composite gliders, it seems there's basically two camps: dedicated trainers (17-18m) with low-ish performance and high-performance, cross-country machines with long wingspans unsuitable for basic training (20+m). But, both types of performance are needed on the training continuum at different times and few cross that divide with one platform. The only other 'adaptable' two seater where a shorter span could be used for daily training, but added wingspan added for higher-performance cross country, is the DG1001. But, I am guessing the DG1001 is much more expensive than the SZD-54-2.
I don't know US/Canada pricing but in the UK my club has looked at this,
although not moved forward with either due to recent lack of operations
and uncertainty in the recent past. Yes the DG1001 is more expensive but
for something you may own and operate for many years the price of a
DG1001 Club NEO against a Perkoz may be less than you think. Check with
the agents.
--
Nick Hill
Nick Hill[_3_]
May 4th 21, 05:40 PM
On 04/05/2021 16:34, wrote:
> On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 10:37:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> For two place composite gliders, it seems there's basically two camps: dedicated trainers (17-18m) with low-ish performance and high-performance, cross-country machines with long wingspans unsuitable for basic training (20+m). But, both types of performance are needed on the training continuum at different times and few cross that divide with one platform. The only other 'adaptable' two seater where a shorter span could be used for daily training, but added wingspan added for higher-performance cross country, is the DG1001. But, I am guessing the DG1001 is much more expensive than the SZD-54-2.
>
I don't know US/Canada pricing but in the UK my club has looked at this,
although not moved forward with either due to recent lack of operations
and uncertainty in the recent past. Yes the DG1001 is more expensive but
for something you may own and operate for many years the price of a
DG1001 Club NEO against a Perkoz may be less than you think. Check with
the agents.
--
Nick Hill
John Foster
May 4th 21, 09:23 PM
On Tuesday, May 4, 2021 at 10:38:39 AM UTC-6, Nick Hill wrote:
> On 04/05/2021 16:34, wrote:
> > On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 10:37:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > For two place composite gliders, it seems there's basically two camps: dedicated trainers (17-18m) with low-ish performance and high-performance, cross-country machines with long wingspans unsuitable for basic training (20+m). But, both types of performance are needed on the training continuum at different times and few cross that divide with one platform. The only other 'adaptable' two seater where a shorter span could be used for daily training, but added wingspan added for higher-performance cross country, is the DG1001. But, I am guessing the DG1001 is much more expensive than the SZD-54-2.
> I don't know US/Canada pricing but in the UK my club has looked at this,
> although not moved forward with either due to recent lack of operations
> and uncertainty in the recent past. Yes the DG1001 is more expensive but
> for something you may own and operate for many years the price of a
> DG1001 Club NEO against a Perkoz may be less than you think. Check with
> the agents.
>
> --
>
> Nick Hill
To me this is a market that is SORELY lacking in the US at least. The training fleet is getting quite "long in the tooth". Every year we seem to loose a few 2-33s due to wind damage or some other incident. The G-103s are increasingly getting "beat up" as described above, and those that have been repaired continually seem to loose useful load, even as the US population gets heavier and heavier. For a decent trainer now, unless you are training pediatrics, you need a useful load of almost 400lbs. Anyone over 200lbs is going to have a hard time finding a place to train anymore. There are many clubs in the US that are really strapped for cash, and don't have any options to transition students from the 2-33 into glass ships, let alone do primary training in a glass ship. I really wish there were more options available in this area at an affordable price (under $25,000). But I guess it is a simple case of supply/demand where busy, successful clubs are able to pay the higher prices for more expensive gliders.
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
May 4th 21, 09:53 PM
On Tue, 04 May 2021 13:23:24 -0700, John Foster wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 4, 2021 at 10:38:39 AM UTC-6, Nick Hill wrote:
>> On 04/05/2021 16:34, wrote:
>> > On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 10:37:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>>
>> > For two place composite gliders, it seems there's basically two
>> > camps: dedicated trainers (17-18m) with low-ish performance and
>> > high-performance, cross-country machines with long wingspans
>> > unsuitable for basic training (20+m). But, both types of performance
>> > are needed on the training continuum at different times and few cross
>> > that divide with one platform. The only other 'adaptable' two seater
>> > where a shorter span could be used for daily training, but added
>> > wingspan added for higher-performance cross country, is the DG1001.
>> > But, I am guessing the DG1001 is much more expensive than the
>> > SZD-54-2.
>> I don't know US/Canada pricing but in the UK my club has looked at
>> this,
>> although not moved forward with either due to recent lack of operations
>> and uncertainty in the recent past. Yes the DG1001 is more expensive
>> but for something you may own and operate for many years the price of a
>> DG1001 Club NEO against a Perkoz may be less than you think. Check with
>> the agents.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Nick Hill
>
> To me this is a market that is SORELY lacking in the US at least. The
> training fleet is getting quite "long in the tooth". Every year we seem
> to loose a few 2-33s due to wind damage or some other incident. The
> G-103s are increasingly getting "beat up" as described above, and those
> that have been repaired continually seem to loose useful load, even as
> the US population gets heavier and heavier. For a decent trainer now,
> unless you are training pediatrics, you need a useful load of almost
> 400lbs. Anyone over 200lbs is going to have a hard time finding a place
> to train anymore. There are many clubs in the US that are really
> strapped for cash, and don't have any options to transition students
> from the 2-33 into glass ships, let alone do primary training in a glass
> ship. I really wish there were more options available in this area at
> an affordable price (under $25,000). But I guess it is a simple case of
> supply/demand where busy, successful clubs are able to pay the higher
> prices for more expensive gliders.
Is there any market in the US for used ASK-21s? I ask because one of my
club's K-21s is over 20 years old now and still nice to fly and not
showing its age except that the instrument panel is now a little lower
than it was: its shock mount is sagging a bit. For that matter, ASK-13s
are worth consideration with over 700 made, though being fabric covered,
they shouldn't be left outdoors.
I learnt to fly in a combination of ASK-21, SZD Puchacz and G-103 Twin 2
Acro plus occasional flights in a Slingsby T.21b. We've still got all
these except the G.103 has been replaced (due to steady weight gain) by a
Perkoz.
FWIW, I've flown a 2/33. The only other glider I've flown with similar
handling and performance is the T.21, but the latter has considerably
better pilot ergonomics. An ASK-13 offers considerably better handling
and performance than the 2/33 and is nicer to fly.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Nick Hill[_3_]
May 5th 21, 09:04 AM
On 04/05/2021 21:23, John Foster wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 4, 2021 at 10:38:39 AM UTC-6, Nick Hill wrote:
>
> To me this is a market that is SORELY lacking in the US at least. The training fleet is getting quite "long in the tooth". Every year we seem to loose a few 2-33s due to wind damage or some other incident. The G-103s are increasingly getting "beat up" as described above, and those that have been repaired continually seem to loose useful load, even as the US population gets heavier and heavier. For a decent trainer now, unless you are training pediatrics, you need a useful load of almost 400lbs. Anyone over 200lbs is going to have a hard time finding a place to train anymore. There are many clubs in the US that are really strapped for cash, and don't have any options to transition students from the 2-33 into glass ships, let alone do primary training in a glass ship. I really wish there were more options available in this area at an affordable price (under $25,000). But I guess it is a simple case of supply/demand where busy, successful clubs are able to pay the higher prices for more expensive gliders.
>
In Europe various clubs are now refreshing with K21bs so it looks like
the second hand price for K21s is falling. Still not at the $25,000
level though.
--
Nick Hill
Tony[_7_]
May 5th 21, 01:29 PM
On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 4:04:25 AM UTC-4, Nick Hill wrote:
> On 04/05/2021 21:23, John Foster wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 4, 2021 at 10:38:39 AM UTC-6, Nick Hill wrote:
>
> >
> > To me this is a market that is SORELY lacking in the US at least. The training fleet is getting quite "long in the tooth". Every year we seem to loose a few 2-33s due to wind damage or some other incident. The G-103s are increasingly getting "beat up" as described above, and those that have been repaired continually seem to loose useful load, even as the US population gets heavier and heavier. For a decent trainer now, unless you are training pediatrics, you need a useful load of almost 400lbs. Anyone over 200lbs is going to have a hard time finding a place to train anymore. There are many clubs in the US that are really strapped for cash, and don't have any options to transition students from the 2-33 into glass ships, let alone do primary training in a glass ship. I really wish there were more options available in this area at an affordable price (under $25,000). But I guess it is a simple case of supply/demand where busy, successful clubs are able to pay the higher prices for more expensive gliders.
> >
> In Europe various clubs are now refreshing with K21bs so it looks like
> the second hand price for K21s is falling. Still not at the $25,000
> level though.
>
> --
>
> Nick Hill
Remember that the Blanik 13 can be returned to service now, for about that cost. Great trainer. Shipping to/from Czech Republic not so crazy with 3 in a container as detailed in SOARING a few years back. Details on Blanik USA website.
John Foster
May 7th 21, 08:04 PM
On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 6:29:21 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 4:04:25 AM UTC-4, Nick Hill wrote:
> > On 04/05/2021 21:23, John Foster wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 4, 2021 at 10:38:39 AM UTC-6, Nick Hill wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > To me this is a market that is SORELY lacking in the US at least. The training fleet is getting quite "long in the tooth". Every year we seem to loose a few 2-33s due to wind damage or some other incident. The G-103s are increasingly getting "beat up" as described above, and those that have been repaired continually seem to loose useful load, even as the US population gets heavier and heavier. For a decent trainer now, unless you are training pediatrics, you need a useful load of almost 400lbs. Anyone over 200lbs is going to have a hard time finding a place to train anymore. There are many clubs in the US that are really strapped for cash, and don't have any options to transition students from the 2-33 into glass ships, let alone do primary training in a glass ship. I really wish there were more options available in this area at an affordable price (under $25,000). But I guess it is a simple case of supply/demand where busy, successful clubs are able to pay the higher prices for more expensive gliders.
> > >
> > In Europe various clubs are now refreshing with K21bs so it looks like
> > the second hand price for K21s is falling. Still not at the $25,000
> > level though.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Nick Hill
> Remember that the Blanik 13 can be returned to service now, for about that cost. Great trainer. Shipping to/from Czech Republic not so crazy with 3 in a container as detailed in SOARING a few years back. Details on Blanik USA website.
A friend of mine just sold his Blanik L13 that he sent back to the factory for the modification. It sold for $55k, I think.
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 8:47:11 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Hello, trying to get some information together on this glider for club purchase consideration, but I cannot find a US dealer for it. Am I just missing an obvious one? Does anyone have any first-hand experience with this glider--observations on how suitable it would be to replace a club Grob 103? Thank you,
>
> Mark
If you provide me with your email I will forward to you quite a bit of useful info. Jacek
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